First in a series
It took me all day yesterday to get through the Yoo memo. [pdf's] I kept tearing up. My law partner asked me if someone close to me had died. It’s going to take more research and analysis than I can do in a day to demonstrate even a tiny fraction of the misstatements, misapplications of law, and outright lies in this, ahem, document (I’d like to call it something else, but if I let my temper get the better of me, the research and analysis will never get done).
You can expect several posts from me on this topic. You should not take my word for it that it is a written horror, I should demonstrate that for you.
Today, I’m just going to explain some basics about legal writing. Legal writing, like any other scholarly writing, requires the author to support contentions of "fact" with citations to the source of the writer’s information.
There are two kinds of "facts" that require citation. The first is facts as the term is generally used. So, if you are writing a brief, an opinion letter, an internal memo, or a judge’s opinion and you mention a fact, you should include a citation to the testimony, document, or other piece of evidence that supplied that fact. So, for example, if I wrote "John Smith arrived home at 2pm. Deposition testimony of John Smith at page 62." I would be demonstrating that my "fact" about John Smith’s whereabouts at 2 PM came from page 62 of his own testimony.
The other kind of "fact" that requires a citation is the fact of the state of the law. Specifically, if I want to assert that federal grand jury testimony is to be kept secret by the government prior to indictment, I would cite rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, or I could cite a case that says that, or a learned treatise, or a law review article. (Yes, there are other authoritative sources, this list is not exclusive or exhaustive.)
In a well written brief or opinion, every single assertion of fact or law has a citation to support it. There are very few that actually meet this standard of perfection, but that is more often a function of limited time. At the very least, you MUST MUST MUST support your major points.
The Yoo memo, as you will see in later posts, completely lacks any citation whatsoever for the most sweeping and outrageous claims. Small wonder, since I doubt he could find any law or case that even came close to some of his nuttier propositions.
The second distinction I would like to draw is between different kinds of legal writing. When you are writing a brief, you are SUPPOSED to maximize the points in favor of your side and explain away the arguments in favor of your opponent. Nonetheless, you are not permitted to leave out of your brief ANY major controlling legal precedent, no matter how badly it damages your case.
So, if Yoo had been writing an advocacy brief (which he was not) he is still ethically required to deal with the Youngstown Steel case (which will be discussed in a later post). As Emptywheel already pointed out, the Yoo memo is completely devoid of ANY mention of Youngstown. That completely blew my mind.
When you are writing internal memos within a law firm, or legal opinions as a judge, or advisory opinions as Yoo was for Office of Legal Counsel–you are NOT supposed to advocate for one side or the other. You are supposed to examine the state of the law and describe what the laws and the precedents say. You may in some circumstances do an examination of what possible arguments each side in a controversy might present, you might even maybe offer a conclusion about which side has the obviously greater weight of precedent on their side. For example, I could write "examination of these competing augments reveals that side A has 150 years of consistent legal precedent including 8 Supreme Court opinions in its favor while side B has only a single decision written by a traffic court judge in Peoria in 1962 supporting its argument" or "although the plain language of the statute might suggest that X would result in liability under this statute, research has not revealed a single case to so hold."
What you don’t get to do, is substitute your own opinion for the plain meaning of a statute or section of the Constitution, nor do you get to overrule a court decision, unless you are in fact a court of equal or greater review.
I know that OLC likes to call itself the Mini Supreme Court–but it is not, in fact, the SCOTUS. Yet the Yoo memo repeatedly treated binding existing precedent as if it could be ignored or overruled by OLC.
Last item for this post: citation placement. When you place a footnote at the end of a sentence, the reader is meant to assume that the footnote supports the ENTIRE sentence. If you have two clauses in the sentence (or several examples listed in a sentence) then you are required to place your footnote at the point in the sentence where the clause you are supporting ends. If your footnote only supports the second half of a two clause sentence, the wording of your footnote should make that clear, so the reader will be alerted that the first part of your sentence lacks support.
In the Yoo memo, there are repeated examples of multi clause (or multi item) sentences in which the first part of the sentence contains a statement that is unremarkable and clearly well settled law, but the second half is an outrageous claim, yet the footnote appears at the end of the sentence falsely implying that the entire sentence actually has support.
Here’s an example out of the Yoo memo:
"It is well settled that the President may seize and detain enemy combatants, at least for the duration of the conflict, and the laws of war make clear that prisoners may be interrogated for information concerning the enemy, its strength and its plans" footnote 9"
This is what footnote 9 says:
Although Article 17 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, August 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3517, places restrictions on interrogations of enemy combatants, members of al Qaeda and the Taliban militia are not legally entitiled to the status of prisoners of war under the Convention. See generally memeorandum for Alberto R.Gonzales, Counsel to the President and William J. Hayes, III, General Counsel, Department of Defense, from Jay S. Baybee Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, Re: Application of Treaties and Laws to al Qaeda and Taliban Detainees (Jan 22, 2002) ("Treaties and Laws Memorandum")
This is what the entirety of Article 17 of the Geneva Conventions says:
Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.
If he willfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.
Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner’s surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him.
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.
The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand.
So, the legal authority Yoo is citing to support his stunning assertion "that the laws of war make clear that prisoners may be interrogated for information concerning the enemy, its strength and its plans" not only DOESN’T SAY YOU ARE ALLOWED TO ASK FOR THAT INFORMATION, IT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Sorry, didn’t mean to shout. What Article 17 says is that you can only ask for name, rank/regiment, birthdate and serial number, period.
Oh yeah, and it also says specifically that you can’t torture.
So, the Prop wonders, what could be the authority in footnote 9 supporting this amazing assertion? Hmmm? Could it be the earlier memo written by none other than…….wait for it….John Yoo?!?? Yoo’s boss, Bybee may have signed off on it, but it is widely believed to have been primarily authored by Yoo. So, Yoo’s authority is ….John Yoo.
Not a statute, not a court opinion, himself.
Smug self-referencing little bastard.
[Editor's note: The photo atop the post, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
Related posts:
- Memo to the White House: You Can’t Win an Unpopular War (And Stop Quoting George W. Bush)
- Memo to OK Domestic Use of Military Also Authorized Surveillance
- Memo to WaPo: Torture is Not Just Waterboarding
- Bush’s Info Sharing Memo Timed to Match Warrantless Wiretap Revelations
- Bank of America Finally Clues In: “Lawyer Made Us Do It” Doesn’t Work






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Thank you, LHP. I look forward to reading each one of your posts. Now, howzabout we help Yoo lose his job (before we get him shipped to the Hague, that is).
OT-My good friend has stage 4 breast cancer. What do I do? I told her I would go to the physicians tomorrow with her (which I most certainly will), but WTF do I say? I have been an ass and not called her. I thought she was mad at me, but it turns out she was just hiding out from everyone!
WOW,
LHP what a great take down. Can someone write some sort of “legal philosophy” without adhering to the formalism you describe? Is that possible? How do philosophers write about the law?
You say that you love her. You ask what you can do to help her in a practical way. You make a really big deal out of evry scrap of good news. You develope a big repitoire of Knock-knock jokes.
LHP, I’m sorry! I don’t mean to hijack your well written thread I am just totally freaked out. Please forgive me…
Help her fight and maybe investigate alternative treatments. This is a very difficult thing. Kindness, generosity is all you can do and of course understanding and listening. Give her anything you can.
Tell me more
The best thing you could possibly do is ask her what you can do for her, what she needs…and then sit back and listen and let her talk if she wants to do so. Or sit with her in silence if she doesn’t. It’s really, really hard not to be that “here’s what we’ll do” sort of person, but she needs to be in charge of her cancer…and she needs to know that she’s supported in being in charge of whatever she needs as she goes forward. That’s really, really important — and it’s the hardest part of being someone’s friend while they are going through it, because what you really want to do is hold them tight and make it all better for them.
Hugs to you and your friend. So sorry she is dealing with this. But much, much hope…
LHP,
Thanks.
I work in a field in which lawyers sell their opinions to clients.
The clients pay big bucks. The lawyers write a grand opinion.
My area is tax law. In which law firms sell opinions to high-rollers.
Guys like Yoo are turds. They sell out not just to high-income tax shelter abusers. But also to the government.
U.C. Berkeley is a criminal here for hiring this guy.
If I were a wealthy member of U.C. Berkeley’s Board, I’d have this guy fired in a second.
The rules of citation are genrally accpeted. You can find them in a nook called “a Uniform System of Citation” , more commonly known as “the Blue Book’
It’s not just law that requires sourcing.
Also, the PhD for lawyer is “Dr. of Jurisprudential Philosophy”
How did we come to this point. Thanks loosehead for helping us figure it out.
LHP — Thanks so much for writing this for us. We’ve both been wrestling with how to write about this beyond just screaming obscenities into the void, and this is such a wonderful first step into explaining why it’s so utterly and completely offensive to everything that is justice.
My condolences on your sorrow
LHP can someone be booted out of the profession, ie lose their license to practice for breaking the technical rules of legal writing? Is incompetence in this genre a basis for other forms of sanction? Isn’t he a professor of law? Can’t other lawyers protest to the university that he is incompetent based on the presentation alone, regardless of the flaws in legal reasoning?
Tax Shelter Opinion letters!!! I kept thinking it reminded me of something/ Excellent pick up
LHP,
I am aware of the need for citations in academia, but what is the “penalty” for abusing these standards? We can see that he was able to twist the facts to suit his arguement because it sloppy citations.
But isn’t it conceivable to somehow produce a legal memo support any position? Or is that impossible? Not any position can be legally justified?
1,800 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thanx for all the work citizen lhp, and for the determination to advance our understandin’ of the truth of this terrible mess as it relates to the law. My question is: where does this go from here to get this whole question into the public conversation and is it possible that, given the make-up of the federal courts and the SCOTUS that maybe political venues like congressional hearings would be better’n tryin’ ta bring the issue forward in the courts?
As you probably guessed , I have long considered the American justice system and the idea of rule of law and equal protection under it fatally wounded, so please tell me there is a way to save the very sick baby without throwin’ it out with the bathwater and startin’ all over again.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KEEP THE AMMUNITION COMIN’…WE JEST GOTTA FIGURE OUT WHERE TA USE IT!!
LHP, I have long been one of thise who had to laugh lest I cry (since the sixties). Trust me I am most certainly crying now…
Art,
Are tax lawyers able to find loop holes or conflicts in the law and find the best way for their client? Does that mean the code is full of holes? Is that intentional?
Does the IRS get the memo? or does that happen when there is an audit? How does that work?
Gee Christy, You could hear me screaming obscenities at the page all way in West Virginia? I didn’t realize I was THAT loud!
LHP.
I heard it over here in Westchester, but sound carries across water sometimes.
Technically, in NY at least yes. But I doubt it would happen on one memo alone. It;s called failing to adhere to the standards of he profession for competence.
It would not happen just because somebody wrote on crappy memo. We all get the flu and turn in crummy work form time to time.
P.S. lhp:
You get a Norske Medal of Citizenship, I hope that helps dry the tears and bank the fire of anger in yer belly.
Thank you for this LHP. Is it even conceivable that Yoo will be able to keep his job a Berkely?
LHP, outstanding piece and writing.
My education is continuing. I cannot wait to read more on Yoo, by you. :-)
Great advice from you and Christy to Nonplussed. My neighbour has maybe three more weeks…
Someone, I think Pravduh, posted an address where you can send an e-mail to the University. I did immediately. Maybe if everyone did, it might help.
in my opinion only, but since you asked us…
1) what lhp said – tell her that you love her. don’t hint – say it out loud and let her know you mean it.
2) what christy said – let your help be guided by her wishes. she’s probably feeling way out of control – support her initiatives and independence, don’t try to “take charge”.
3) tell her that she doesn’t have to be alone throughout her troubles, that you will be with her when she wants or needs company. and then do that – as christy said, just sitting with her and listening to her is a real gift of yourself. you don’t need to have any answers, just give your friend your support as she tries to find her own way forward.
hugs to you nonplussed and to your friend.
you know Norske? I always wanted one of those. Thank you
But it’s far more than sloppy work. It’s resulted in torture and death. Berkely will explode if he is a professor!
lhp – you mention advocacy briefs. how many kinds of briefs are there and what are their characteristics?
I have to confess to some ignorance? Does he have tenure? if so, the only way he’s likely to leave is if his students laugh him off campus.
KO has something on Yoo coming up tonight.
ISSA ON KO TOO!
imo, it’s important to remember that yoo did not initiate this on his own – he was most certainly acting under, if not explict instructions, then a good understanding of what was expected. my question is: expected by who?
THis is NOT sloppy. This guy wentot Harvard and Yale! This is deliberate!!!
How many Yoolings has he trained already?
Thank you for this post LHP.
Sander,
Tax lawyers are always 2 steps ahead of the IRS.
This is because the tax law is written by congress, politicians, and interpreted by the IRS, a bureaucracy.
Any good tax lawyer is two or more steps ahead of congress or the IRS.
Truth is, however, no ordinary American can make good use of a tax lawyer.
Only wealthy Americans can.
P.S., Taxes will be the big issue in the 2008 election.
An advocay brief is what most people think of as a brief. The lawyer for one side of the case writes a bried that argues his side of the issue. Other briefs/memos of law inlcude the in house memo.
Usualy written by an associate for a partner, it lays out in fairly nuetral terms what the state of the law is and migh (depnding on how senior/confident the associate is) offer some strategy suggestions for the client’s side of he case.
Opion letters for tax shelters or regulated transaction (think SEC). These are suppsed to be neutral and almost like private judges opinions, but in my experience I and my firm doesn;t do them) is that they are more often a whitewash or beard for for whatever the client wants to do. This latter trend is BAD BAD BAD
There are others, but I’m getting tired of typing
Wiki on Yoo.
It doesn’t say that he is tenured, but I’m pretty darn sure I’ve read that he is. Wouldn’t he require tenure before leaving his job to work in the Justice Dept?
Digg this
He also claims in the memo that the “criminal division” at DOJ agreed with hi,m. Guess who was head of the DOJ Criminal Division at that time?
Chertoff.
Depends on what is bargaining srength was when he negotiated the hire
looseheadprop, I have been asking and nobody with a law backround has responded so I hope you can;
This yoo memo is santioning brazen lawlessness with absolutely nothing more then “because I say it, it is so”
Aren’t memebers of congress obligated to prefer charges against what has been done by yoo?
can we file a complaint against congress holding them responsible if they don’t prefer charges
aren’t they accessories if they allow this lawless behavior?
I have attempting to follow this unfolding story. Have not read the Woo opinions, only excerpts and news articles discussing the story.
I do have two questions. I don’t remeber Congress ever voting to go to war. Is this correct? I know there was that much disputed invasion wink and nod resolution, but I thought war required a specific declaration. Just wondering where all these war powers came from if we were never legally at war. And whom were we supposedly at war with? Al-Qaeda or Iraq? I honestly am not clear about this.
Second, if the Constitution, international law and treaties don’t apply to the President in these situations, then what does? If these assorted attorneys took the position that it’s OK to torture because these legal constraints are not applicable to the executive under some manufactured Constitutional Executive theory, why stop there? What legally stops interrogators from using “harsh techniques” that did result in organ failure and death? In other words, if they decided that nothing prohibited torture, then what about death? Isn’t this like being a little pregnant? And I thought these folks liked strict constructionist judges. Guess that doesn’t apply to attorneys.
I would think that the State Bar Assocciations would have a great deal of interest in discussing these events with the attorneys who were involved. Ditto for the medical personnel who may have also assisted in these criminal activities. Actions should have consequences.
Dugg. Thanks, dakine. This is so important.
(((nonplussed)))
How widely cirulated was this memo in the DOJ? Did anyone resign on principal upon reading it?
Keith Olbermann is about to discuss the John Yoo memo on MSNBC.
I hate to go off topic on such an important thread but this is sort of on topic because it demonstrates just how far these theocrats are willing to go, just how zealous, just how depraved, this is the lead at think progress and talk about disturbing, it doesn’t get much more then this;
They passed the Miliatry Commission ACt which some writers seem o think give blanket retroactive immunity to these monsters within the territoruak unted states.
Somebody’s gomma have to RENDITION him to the Hague
damn, I meant ‘principle.’
loosehead and pups–
the yoo memo is bringing out all kinds of vermin.
today ed schultz, self-proclaimed ’progressive democrat’, lie-berman’s brother, was talking about the yoo memo today, and said that jello jay rockefeller was a ’fisa hero’……….the same man pushing telco immunity, wonder why? look up his contributors list.
i just want people to know that someone is using yoo’s memo to pump up another dino…..jello jay. this asshole needs to be stopped.
couldn’t believe it, most appalling thing he has done so far……before, most appalling thing was his ’talk’ with steny hoyer yesterday. i am incensed like never before. sent letters all over the damn place today about it.
======
and this was on npr today—what john mccain means when he uses ’my friend’ from the lips of his 2000 campaign communications director.
you won’t believe what this guy said.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/…..on_to.html
wanted to post now, cuz getting ready to out of town, and didn’t know if i’d do it later.
bbl
If you accept that part of Yoo’s argumrnt, and follow it to tits logical conlcusion
nothing stops the president. He is above all law
wow, so because he is imune from prosecution he can do whatever he wants?
this obviously includes murder?
I would like to see congress prefer charges and let the president invoke this priviledge for the record
It just got declassified, we don’t know much about its circulation yet. AT least, I don’t.
how is it possible pelosi can continue to keep impeachment off the table?
I believe she really must be removed from her position, she is clearly inept
Self-referential footnotes and misleading citations.
Forget Boalt Hall. Can someone please revoke Yoo’s high school diploma?
My (now) 101 year old high school English teacher would deal with this kind of thing quite ruthlessly. Only one person ever turned in work like this a second time, and the second offense received an even more ruthless response — this time in front of the class.
Thank you, LHP. IANAL, so this explains why his memo reads more like a conservative blog post than a legal argument. Maybe by this weekend I’ll be able to read through it without throwing something. Maybe.
that would be chertoff, who hugh calls ” most incompetent man in Washington”- i don’t see him thinking this up on his own either.
i’m lurking on this post – legalalities are soo over my head but i just want to salute you and christie for trying to explain all these things to those of us with no lawyerly expertise…. KUDOS and then some………..
neuro at 49 please blog olbermann—no cable here.
Exhibiting contempt for existing law, willfully receiving orders from above to author specious rationales for behaving contrary to existing law as per ‘unitary executive’ theories, wanton disregard for legalistic procedures …And this person is an educator at a school of repute?
Tenure be damned. May the rest of his days be filled with sorrow and dissipation.
Thank you, my friends, you have no idea what it means to me! Carrie needs the hugs & your prayers & strength, not me! Your karma is so deeply appreciated! I hope we both can buy you drinks at the Netroots in Austin, if not I shall. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
As long as the House holds the line on reto immunity for Telcos,she can keep her job. The minute she drop the ball on that, get the hook
Something breaking tomorrow night on KO wrt Rachel Maddow….;~)
What is Rachel doing? Oh please let it be her own show!
you know what I don’t like about the picture at then top reading “torture is wrong”?
it doesn’t say what needs to be said for us to win the debate;
torture harms our national security, torture prevents us from getting information, torture creates enemies against this country, torture causes terrorism it does not prevent it.
if we needed to be minimal, the sign should read the last bit of my riff;
“torture causes terrorism it does not prevent it”
THAT would make an effective sign
curiouser and curiouser…… hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Mike Chertoff is a brilliant mind. He is not incompetent, he is malicious. Sometimes we want to believe that someone is incomptetn, because the alternative seems too hard to contemplate
Woo:
Constitution:
This is how damn bad that memo is.
i know people have to work but one sghouldnt put their morals in hock to keep a position…. that is IF ONE has morals….
I agree with youm but I couldn’t fins an online image that said that
Agreed.
“Heckuva Job” Brownie was incompetent; Chertoff is malicious. Worse, he’s still there, continuing his maliciousness.
That’s Yoo, not Woo.
Hey, that was going to be tomorrow’s post *g*
true enough, but can you tell me why you think chertoff has a brilliant mind and is not one of the incompetent?
Rachel Maddow will be substituting for Keith tomorrow night. She announced on her radio program today. She is very excited and hasn’t slept for three nights. She hopes she sleeps tonight so she does well tomorrow. Go Rachel!
Thanks LHP I love your posts and apprediate your sharing of expertise.
The penalty for not properly citing the work of others in academic writing (science, history, literature, every other legitimate scholarly discipline) is to have your work rejected by editors and reviewers. If you somehow manage to intentionally fail to cite others in a published work you will eventually be ostracized by your colleagues. These are very serious matters.
Which brings me to the question again: How is it that such a legal scholar (sic) is a tenured faculty member of one of our best law schools?
can’t wait for your next post. i’ve only read snippets yet, but got a printout at kinkos to go through later.
non-plussed—-a while back when i had intense, severe medical issues, my sister said–i don’t know what to do for you!@!
i said, treat me like a human being, talk to me like you always do, make me laugh like you always do.
treat me like you always do, help each other, like we always do. that’s what i need.
what you describe is the way it’s supposed to work – not the way it always does.
That’s at Crooks and Liars, not Think Progress.
Selise
I’ve know Chertoff since he was a Brand new general Crimes Asistant (that’s where they put you when youa re fist hired) at SDNY. he has a razor sharp mind.
Not that I have often agreed with any conlcusion he reahed. He has an amazing aboutily to injest, digest and reflex law, facts or anythong lelse.
However , he has the sort of really poor judgemetn that come from being utterly ruthless and toally lacking in empathy.
The guy never exhibited any heart, except for one time when he wa tlaking about his wife–that momnet was so brief, I think maybe I imagined it
I think there are two curious aspects to the obvious lawlessness this administration has practiced: one is their obvious desire to demonstrate the current political system (Constitutional Law) doesn’t work, even if they have to act like morons to do this; second is possibly the idea of showing that if Liberals think torture is immoral, then abortion must also be illegal.
Devious? Yes.
Effective? Time will tell.
Intentional? Obviously — and someone(s) must pay a heavy price to prove their points.
and lately, meaty posts have been getting an hour, and ’fluf’f two hours or more…….
not enough time for the meat, i love fdl, but it’s not doing justice to the meaty posts.
i know there’s a lot more to timing and planning than i am aware of, but it’s happening a lot and detracts from digesting and questioning and learning from those that post the meatier stuff.
LHP, if you would talk to me at ay my email at anbrooks at austin.rr.com I would be very appreciative. I know I am a total jerk, I have been advised of this fact several times in the past. We engineers lack people skills (big time!). I would, however, deem it a personal favor, if you would speak to me and explain the knock-knock jokes. Thanx in advance.
a
nonplussed – I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s situation! But, you are doing the right thing, imho, by going to the doctors with her tomorrow.
Believe it, or not, the most essential part of your friend – her Consciousness – isn’t hurt, or sick, or dying. Her body is going the way of all bodies, but in that utterly normal, allthough admittedly scary, experience, the human mind can rest in Peace, with a little help from its friends.
Speak to her, if possible, from the Stillness inside you to the Stillness inside her. Together, you can handle anything Life presents in Peace.
All love and blessings to you and your friend.
but I believe there are sections in the constitution that point out that it is definately in their power to over see and pass laws that affect the prosecution of war
thanks, that’s important information to have if we’re to understand these people.
thanx peterr
Uh oh, Turley about to take apart Yoo on KO
oh KO has prof j turley talking about this very same post!!
live blogging please!
for those of us w/out cable tv!
Aew you sure you are not Miguel Estrada?
Dmac. jist because e new post goes up, doesn’t mean we cannot stay here in EPUville and injest all the meat we want.
Red and Raw
oh selise… i am not fast enough to live blog :o( i type with 1 finger!! i’m sure C&L will have the vid up in an hour or so….
i understand! thank you for the heads up, though. i will check out c&l later.
I am convinced congress must act against yoo whether or not they can convict the man for these crimes against humanity and our law
they must act and they must let the president invoke his priviledge
they must get to president to say “I say yoo is right and it is ok to torture”
yoo must be marginalized, his opinions must be cast out as having no weight and he must be disbarred
I am so scared but I don’t want to let her know that. Thank goodness I have been here with all you smart people, you have no idea how much I appreciate your sage advice! I was really caught flat footed, flabbergasted, and caught short, amazingly enough-it just can’t happen to us! Without you guy’s I don’t know how we would handle it and by extension my dear, sweet friend, could cope. God, we love you all! I never cry, my VA person tells me this is an issue…
so, lhp – do you think that yoo wrote this at the direction of chertoff?
looseheadprop, do you have any contacts at Boalt Hall? I’d love to hear what the reaction is there.
nonplussed – it’s ok to be scared. just don’t look to your friend right now for reassurance or to take care of your feelings… she already has enough to deal with her own feelings right now.
as always, use your own judgement – not mine!
{{{{{selise}}}}} lol
gawd, must go home but want to stay here and continue discussion
should I stay or should I go?
if I stay there will be trouble, if I go there will be double
should I stay or should I go?
shuold I stay or should I go?
STAY STAY- you’ll always have trouble – hehehehehe
yup, always in trouble I am
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate your kindness and sage advice, which I shall take to heart. Again, my sincerest thanks, RFW!
L M A O !!!!!
perris–one of my favorite jams…….back when noone had heard of them………
duh duh duh duuuuuuuuh da duh duh…………
Nah, I think he worte it at the direction of Cheney and/or Rummy–but that’s just a wild assed guess
LHP: I look froward to your future posts on this reprehensible memo.
None zero zilch
ANybody else got any skinny from there?
what is boalt hall?
LHP at 96, oh i know, i’ve told people that many times, and am always epu’d/behind from staying in a thread……and i get even further behind if it’s just had an hour……even more behind…….just had wanted to voice it for a while, and don’t mean it in a mean way, just as an critique/observation. (i think it sucks that fluff crap gets 2-3 hours, and meat gets one…..just sayin’, but i know it’s hard to coordinate everything, so am not being ’nasty’.)
i am always running about 45 minutes behind on a thread, so, takes me awhile to read it and catch up on comments before i comment……so, if it only lasts an hour, i’m screwed if i have a question, then, if i stay, i miss the next thread, is frustrating.
like perris said–is a constant, should i stay or should i go?
although he meant it differently, is my mantra.
Boalt Hall = Official name of University of California at Berkeley School of Law
lhp–i forgot to add, that i’m on dial-up, so doing links and all takes more time.
when there is a fast turnover, i have to skip the links to catch up on comments, or do the links and miss out on what is going on.
shouldn’t have to do that, when there are ’fluff’ threads where there are no links, hardly any comments, and it lasts for two hours. sometimes more.
not right.
posts like yours should be two hours.
see? i am soooo out of the lawyer loop!! thanks dakine01 for that “solid” ;o}
if i find a post enlightening i lurk until the last comment…. there’s a time frame??
We are getting a new front page editor–whew we are getting SOOO professioal. So traffic may get a bit more coordinated. The sie is upgrading, again.
The comment thread remains open for 24 hours. I usueally checkthe bottom of hte htread the next morninga nd try to answer any orphan QUestions,s o if you miss me, check back the next day
thanks for that…. it takes me awhile to digest all of this so i’m always behind every body
juslin at 120–i hear what you’re sayin’, but when there’s two or three posts goin’ on, kinda hard to do all of it.
depends on your approach i guess.
i am a rabid news hound, and kinda want it all.
i’m greedy that way. : )
and plus catchin’ up on old threads takes time in there too.
only so much time in the day.
the ones with meat need longer time devoted to them.
so, needs better spacing.
that’s all.
everything else is perfect.
lhp–site upgrading again?
everytime it upgrades, i am one step closer to no access.
since last upgrade, i have to stop the page loading all the way or my browser quits. wipes out all of my windows, fdl and all the others i have docked. took rpg and a buddy of his to even get me signed in…….
oh well.
that’s why when there’s more than one thread goin’/jammed is such a pain, especially if i am commenting and keeping up on comments, if i don’t stop the load on time, all my windows wipe out/
glad about the editor, but hope the upgrade won’t wipe out the outdated mac users again.
Loosehead, nice job again
BTW, John Yoo was interviewed by Harry Kreisler Executive Director of the Institute of International Studies on the the Univ. of Cal UCTV Online this afternoon. The schedule for rebroadcast of the interview is here. The next broadcast is 6 PM tomorrow, and can be watched by clicking on live webstream here or with the other choices given. And hopefully they’ll put it up on their youtube channel sometime.
Here’s the summary given
Might be interesting to watch if you can get the video to work – which I’m having the hardest time with (grrrr)
Here’s another youtube of a debate between Yoo and Michael Nacht, Dean of the Goldman School of Public Policy in 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRl6BoLnlVM
Great post. I could not say it better myself. IANAL but I was horrified reading the memo at how sloppy and contradictory it was. It would have been shorter, clearer, and more honest if it had simply said:
Torture? OK by me,
John Yoo
imo this is what occurs when dems give repugs no opposition
Thank you, I will try o catch it. Yoo is gonna spin hard. We eed to get the truth out
It start out as “smug little fucker” , but that seemed too unprofessional
LH. Great analysis. As to footnotes and documentary proofs: I do this stuff for a living, and I’m damned good at it. Yoo is a vanilla fraud. That the stuff passed through the chain of command that commanded him to write this stuff doesn’t surprise me. What surprises me, unless the memo was closely held, is why the DOJ didn’t object. They still had (and have) honorable men and women there. This was a set-up. It’s not just Yoo that has to be investigated. The whole chain that passed the memo from one level to the next has got to be investigated.
LHP, please send a copy of this to John Yoo’s dean, Christopher Edley, Dean of the Law School, at cedley@law.berkeley.edu
I haven’t had time to read through all the comments but on Yoo’s official page at Berkeley this is what I found for his legal experience anywhere near a courtroom (from his cv):
Judiciary Committee, United States Senate
General Counsel, 1995-96
Justice Clarence Thomas, United States Supreme Court
Law clerk, 1994-95
Judge Laurence Silberman, U.S. Court of Appeals, D.C. Circuit
Law clerk, 1992-93
With the exception of his time at DOJ/OLC he’s been either an acting Professor of Law or a full Professor of Law at Berkeley. He graduated law school in 1992.
Here’s the link:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/yooj/
This is the guy writing substantive interpretations of the Constitution?
Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.
I think it is safe to say this memo was VERY closely held. Those who saw it likely knew what it was going to say before they read it; those who would have objected were not the kind of people Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft would have allowed to see it in the first place.
So, here is the University of California’s Faculty Code of Conduct (pdf) http://www.universityofcalifor…..apm015.pdf
Searching on POPLINE for condom brought up over 10000 records, searching for abortion brought up zero.
Given the context, it’s a nit, and many commentators above may have pointed it out. But the cited portion of the Convention does not say you can’t ask for more than the required information. It says that you cannot coerce, much less torture a prisoner to obtain it, and that the you should impose no penalty for a prisoner’s failure to provide more than the required information. Even if a prisoner refuses to supply the required information, the only stated consequence is denial of privileges due their rank. Isolation, longtime standing, stress positions, ad nauseum, are, of course, NOT allowed.
So we can ask, we just can not expect an answer. Which kinda defeats the purpose of interrogation, doesn’t it?
Your point that Yoo, who surely knows better, conveyed a false impression of precedential support for contentious issues, and falsely implied that contentious issues were “settled law” is absolutely valid.
Yoo’s document is intentionally deceptive, or so negligently written that it becomes deceptive. Either way, almost all clients ignore the reasoning and go right to the bottom line, the conclusions. Yoo’s message is, “Go ahead; there’s no legal reason you can’t do X.”
Yoo is not giving a summary of the law and a conclusion that responsibly says, “You can do XX, with no or modest risk, or YY with greater risk. If you do ZZ, the Hague or the Supreme Court will come calling.” He is contorting the law and his writing to tell his client what he knows – in detail – it wants to hear, ’cause its ass is already hanging in the wind.
Perhaps law professors rarely have to wrestle with that problem, and maybe not law clerks or judges, either; their jobs are different than a counselor or adviser. But the law itself, and its political implications are something any lawyer of Yoo’s academic training and claimed sophistication should be intimately familiar with, as should his superiors in the DOJ, including the AAG and AG. Yoo is either a stellar example of purposely hiring a junior lawyer to do a general counsel’s work (so the client gets WTF it wants), or a liar, or a co-conspirator.
I’ll go with “all of the above.”
In the past, as exemplified by some of our stellar successes in questioning high-value German prisoners in World War Two, it meant using persuasion, emotional appeals and intellectual gamesmanship instead of coercion or torture. The first produced information, some of which was valid. The latter produced more information faster, virtually none of which was valid.
My suspicion is that the Bushies neither knew enough about them little brown people nor cared enough to find out in order to use the former method. They were scared pantless of being blamed for another attack, lashed out, and purposely punished as brutally as possible. It felt good. Its initial publicly released images made good press. As with the rest of Bush, that wasn’t what you really got. Laura must find all this depressingly familiar.
Exactly,
You can’t expect a prisoner to answer, but these are not prisoners, they are considered enemy combatants and have no legal status or rights. That seems to be their work around.
These prisoners are simply beyond the law and everything or anything can be done to/with them.
This is telling:
WASHINGTON — Members of Congress have as much as $196 million collectively invested in companies doing business with the Defense Department, earning millions since the onset of the Iraq war, according to a study by a nonpartisan research group.
Amy Goodman had a lawyer today from England who has written a book on the tortuous methodology and the fabricators of the fabrication, he has an article in Vanity Fair now about the same.
He reports that there was actually a case of a Nazi lawyer prosecuted under US law for giving bad counsel (or whatever it could be called) under the Nazi regime, as Yoo did here.
So there is precedent under US law to prosecute the lawyers. And of course there is the Hague. All of ‘em can go there, without a doubt. They are in trouble. Big trouble.
Further, his book and research shows that it was not the underlings who came up with this stuff, but it came from the top down. He also says that “24″ was a hit show they all watched at Guantanamo.
from the UC Berkeley website
John Choon Yoo
Title: Professor of Law
Office: 890 Simon Hall
Tel: 510-643-5089
Fax: 510-642-3728
Email Address: jyoo@law.berkeley.edu
John C. Yoo’s Website
John Yoo received his B.A., summa cum laude, in American history from Harvard University. Between college and law school, he worked as a newspaper reporter in Washington, D.C. He received his J.D. from Yale Law School, where he was an articles editor of the Yale Law Journal. He then clerked for Judge Laurence H. Silberman of the U.S. Court of Appeals of the D.C. Circuit.
Professor Yoo joined the Boalt faculty in 1993, then clerked for Justice Clarence Thomas of the U.S. Supreme Court. He served as general counsel of the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee from 1995-96. From 2001 to 2003, he served as a deputy assistant attorney general in the Office of Legal Counsel at the U.S. Department of Justice, where he worked on issues involving foreign affairs, national security and the separation of powers.
SNIP
Guy has been there for quite a while. Obviously he has tenure (he seems to be a full professor, which means he has gone through endless reviews) and he is not an unknown quantity.
Unlike Ward Churchill, tenured at Boulder in 1991 and fired in 2007, Yoo will not be dismissed for these far more serious affronts against truth, justice and the (formerly) American way. But it wouldn’t hurt for a committee of lawyers to petition Boalt Hall for his dismissal.
BTW, in nonlegal editing at least, editors regularly move citations to the end of sentences even when they more appropriately belong to assertions ending in mid-sentence. It drives me crazy.
Philippe Sands
http://www.democracynow.org/20…..ippe_sands
Yoo made be a nasty bastard, but he isn’t stupid (maybe) and must have contemplated getting into hot water for cooking up this legal brief of falsehoods, lies, incompetence. He must have know he was sailing in treacherous waters.
Do you think someone was promising him legal cover for this “brief”?
Doesn’t Yoo argue that none of the traditional international rules for treating prisoners of war (”enemy combatants”) or “illegal” enemy combatants apply to al Qaeda. They are criminal terrorists in the “global sphere”, and when dealing with them outside the USofA, there are NO restrictions limiting their treatment? In fact, he asserts that the same “gloves are off” lack of restrictions apply within the USofA, too.
Shorn of qualifications about the unprecedented and tenuous character of his claims, shorn of comments about the probable consequences for the US vis a vis NATO and the “coalition of the billing” following disclosure that the US had adopted such unprecedented “No Rules of Engagement”, Yoo’s seem to be the conclusions of a sociopath.
US v. Altstoetter. Visit Scott Horton’s blog at Harper’s if you want to know more. He discussed it this week.
Phillipe Sands (thanks Hugh) also mentioned that when the Supremes ruled on torture that Anthony Kennedy wrote his own statement on the issue (sorry, IANAL, so the language is not correct on my part I know) that opened the door to prosecutions for the torture authorizations. Maybe LHP will help us with these additional possibilities for Bushco and the lawyers to go to prison.
To sum up Looseheadprop’s excellent and instructive blog posting:
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Yoo.
Yoo who?
—-
Yoo made LHP feel blue.
Yoo wrote torture memos flagrantly untrue.
Yoo condoned torture with citations gone eschew.
Yoo omitted Youngstown and her mind completely blew.
Yoo damaged our country’s standing, now let accountability ensue.
- Tom
NP, you and your friend Carrie have my best wishes. I have little to add to the advice you’ve received upthread, especially that from LHP and Christy.
Just six weeks ago we lost my wife’s best friend after a four year fight with breast cancer. In March, 2004, 3 days before she was going to accompany us on a vacation in Arizona, she was diagnosed with “Stage 3+”. Initially the surgeon and oncologist were optimistic that they’d got it all, but about a year and a half later metastasis to the bone was detected. But “J” attacked the disease and her surgery and chemo treatments with gusto, with the support of her many friends and family. I’m sure that her positive attitude, and her determination to live life to the fullest in the time she had left, as well as excellent medical care, gave her many months of additional time. In the late spring of 2006 she accompanied us and other friends, as well as her sister and brother-in-law, on a two week trip to Tuscany. Prior to that she and her daughter and the latter’s significant other visited her ancestral homeland in eastern Europe. As an example of her attitude through it all, last spring, about 10 months before she died, she organized her own “Awake Wake”. She said she wanted to be around to hear them when people said such good things about her. It was a truly great celebration of life.
Her last travel of any significance was to attend my son’s wedding last summer on the shores of Lake Superior in northeastern Minnesota. By that time she needed 12 or more hours a day of sleep and bed rest. Toward the end of October her stamina began to deteriorate more markedly, but through it all with the help of friends and relatives she was able to stay in her home until the end.
I guess what I’m saying is be there for you as much as you can, and help her keep her attitude up and get as much out of the time that remains to her. Give her our love.
LHP, nice post. I am absolutely stunned by this document, at least the first 23 pages, which is as far as I have gotten with it.
I feel shamed as a lawyer, as if our inability to do anything to defend our profession from the likes of Yoo and Addington reflects on me and each of us.
Here’s Yoo’s history at Berkeley. I don’t understand how he got tenure on such a flimsy teaching history.
“Current Position
Professor of Law, 1999-present
Acting Professor of Law, 1993-99″
So he received tenure after supposedly being at Berkeley for the standard six years. BTW if one doesn’t get tenure in six years one is automatically released.
So let’s look at what he did at Cal during his evaluation period (1993-1999).
“Judge Laurence Silberman, U.S. Court of Appeals, D.C. Circuit
Law clerk, 1992-93
Justice Clarence Thomas, United States Supreme Court
Law clerk, 1994-95
Judiciary Committee, United States Senate
General Counsel, 1995-96″
So he immediately took a leave of absence to clerk for the Supreme Court…and followed this with another year with the Senate Judiciary Committee. It is truly remarkable for an untenured faculty member to receive two year leaves of absence. And then there would be the expectation of a substantial break from public service with continued teaching before another sabattical (which usually is one year in ten).
But then we see that almost immediately upon being granted tenure….he gets his position in which he rationalized crushing the organs of young children would be allowable if the President saw fit!
“Office of Legal Counsel, United States Department of Justice, 2001-03.”
Then does he go back to Berkeley? No he takes another leave…
“Visiting Professor, University of Chicago Law School, 2003″
Doesn’t seem to like teaching those Cal Students, does he?
Because then he decides to apply for yet another leave…
“Visiting Scholar, American Enterprise Institute, 2003-present.”
And then he decides to travel abroad…guess he needed a holiday.
“Distinguished Fulbright Chair in Law, University of Trento (Italy), 2006.”
But despite these long-term absences he’s made..
“Director, Advanced Law Program (LL.M and J.S.D. degree programs), 2004-present.”
But maybe this is just an artifice to explain his long absences from Boalt.
One has to wonder if UC is getting their money’s worth from this fellow. I can see that he perhaps offers some degree of notoriety, and perhaps takes the heat off of the University from some of the more right-wing Regents (is the right-wing Cuban Tirso del Junco still on the Board of Regents?) …
There used to be a loyalty oath to the Constitution that all Faculty and State employees had to sign…seems that Yoo doesn’t have much regard for it.Maybe they could fire him for making a false declaration.
TomR
Nicely done
You know what, you are right. So is he comment immediatly after yours. I stand corrected. Nice pick up
Not for nuthin’ but they send you to all knds of training classes when you work for the gov’t . One of the ones i sent to was on interviews and iterrogations. It invovled something called the “john Reed method”, and it was exactly as you describe.
Harsh interrogation has produced nothing but spam. I have heard so many complaints from frustrated FBI agents about being forced to take time away from genuine leads , developed the old fashioned –legal — way, run run down these spam leads. It makes us less safe.
I also agree with you second paragraph and add this. We have a president who took joy in blowing up frogs as a kid. enough said
One of the things I found so upsetting about this memo, was the coldblodded tone. As if the writer cared no more for the sufferings of fellow humans than he would for insects.
You know “sigh, regrettable, but what can you do?”
It was the coldness, the lack of any humaity that really got to me
Jonathan Turley said as much on KO last night.In fact he said something that was verbatim wht I had written in an emial to a friend, so I think this feeling is pretty universal amoung us lawyers. At least the sane ones
I hope one day soon we will all be reading about massive anti-Yoo protests at Berkley. Sadly, so far…nothing.
LHP, for us unlawyerly types, this is an awesomely useful post. Thank you!
I’ve barely gotten started on this memo, but the first thing that struck me — on page 1 or 2 — is the ludicrousness of a government asserting necessity or self-defense as a justification for the planned torture of an individual.
Just mind-boggling.
There are other people to whom John Yoo has administered pain. The non-coms at Abu Ghraib, and General Karpinski, were pilloried by the military brass, and received punishment ranging up to 10 years in prison. John Yoo and countless others stood by and let these people hang in the wind in order to protect their dirty secrets. Their trials and punishments should be revisited in light of this now public knowledge, and those who testified that these people acted without authorization need to be tried for perjury.
Although the non-coms were guilty of crimes, the fact that they were induced, if not ordered, to commit them should have been weighed at the trial.
John Yoo deserves to be tried by the world court, along with everyone in the chain up to and including George Bush. Perhaps then I could again hold my head up and say I’m proud to be an American.
In a letter to the NY Times, I suggested those incarcerated because of Abu Ghraib should be released and their places filled by Yoo and everyone who signed off on it and used it. He knew it was illegal when he included a section that proposed no war crimes or criminal charges be brought on the perpetrators. Then why did people go to jail? In my opinion they didn’t want the “memo” to become public. Also how in the world could prestigious universities hire Yoo and Feith, the “dumbest MF’er on the planet(paraphrasing Tommy Franks)and congress, many who saw the “memo,” confirm Hayes to a judgeship? My hope is when any of these people travel abroad they are brought to justice. You can bet it won’t happen here. WTF? How and when did we produce such dispicable, cretinous people, let them rise to responsible positions in governmnent, and watch them shred the Constitution all in the guise of patriotism? It’s been quoted many times; “when facism comes, it will arrive wrapped in a flag carrying a Bible.” Thank God for atheism.