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	<title>Comments on: Salvation In A Smoke Filled Room</title>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369353</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369353</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The smoke-filled rooms may be anathema to Deaniac populists, but over the last four years losing my political virginity I’ve come to realize that &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1) some times a solid sucker punch and a firm kick in the ass out of the camera’s line of sight may be necessary for some folks who do not understand even the clearest of enunciation and the simplest of words;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2) there’s a time when a common and blunt lingua franca is called for, again out of sight of cameras and away from recording devices.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this case, the smoke-filled room may have put the morons at ease just long enough; the outcome is still going to be the same, only the method of message delivery has changed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(Believe me, I’ve had to resort to the very same tactics locally inside the last week.  How do these morons continually manage to find a second wind and resurrect themselves, obstructing reform and democratic efforts towards GOTV?  Even heart attacks — no, I’m not kidding — don’t seem to stop these stupid f*cks.  If a smoke-filled room and conversation sotto voce is all that’s required to get it through their thick heads, I’ll make the compromise.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The smoke-filled rooms may be anathema to Deaniac populists, but over the last four years losing my political virginity I’ve come to realize that </p>
<p>1) some times a solid sucker punch and a firm kick in the ass out of the camera’s line of sight may be necessary for some folks who do not understand even the clearest of enunciation and the simplest of words;</p>
<p>2) there’s a time when a common and blunt lingua franca is called for, again out of sight of cameras and away from recording devices.</p>
<p>In this case, the smoke-filled room may have put the morons at ease just long enough; the outcome is still going to be the same, only the method of message delivery has changed.</p>
<p>(Believe me, I’ve had to resort to the very same tactics locally inside the last week.  How do these morons continually manage to find a second wind and resurrect themselves, obstructing reform and democratic efforts towards GOTV?  Even heart attacks — no, I’m not kidding — don’t seem to stop these stupid f*cks.  If a smoke-filled room and conversation sotto voce is all that’s required to get it through their thick heads, I’ll make the compromise.)</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369252</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369252</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Puerto Rico just recently moved their Primary back two days to June 1st, thus allowing South Dakota and Montana to have the last shot. I think that they were “talked to” so that their votes would not be the ultimate and deciding contest. It could have been a little embarassing if Obama went into the last day 20 delegates ahead and then Clinton gets enough PR delegates to win. The Repugs would make huge hay about that. But if two heartland contests follow it may not look as bad.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But I don’t think it’ll go down to these last three races. The Texas caucuses actually gave him more delegates in that State…unlike the even split that most tallies had. And he’s going to close on Clinton in Pennsylvania, limiting her delegate numbers there. Then he’s got N.Carolina, which should counter any gains she makes in W, Virginia and Tennessee. Indiana and Oregon might even increase his numbers. By then the Superdelegates will be coming over, too as they see that his lead is insurmountable (or that they don’t want it to appear Puerto Rico is decisive).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Puerto Rico just recently moved their Primary back two days to June 1st, thus allowing South Dakota and Montana to have the last shot. I think that they were “talked to” so that their votes would not be the ultimate and deciding contest. It could have been a little embarassing if Obama went into the last day 20 delegates ahead and then Clinton gets enough PR delegates to win. The Repugs would make huge hay about that. But if two heartland contests follow it may not look as bad.</p>
<p>But I don’t think it’ll go down to these last three races. The Texas caucuses actually gave him more delegates in that State…unlike the even split that most tallies had. And he’s going to close on Clinton in Pennsylvania, limiting her delegate numbers there. Then he’s got N.Carolina, which should counter any gains she makes in W, Virginia and Tennessee. Indiana and Oregon might even increase his numbers. By then the Superdelegates will be coming over, too as they see that his lead is insurmountable (or that they don’t want it to appear Puerto Rico is decisive).</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369224</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369224</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My position on this is strong. While superdelegates can vote their “conscience”, the most significant consideration should be the will of those that voted in the 52-odd Democratic Primaries and Caucuses. The exclusive reason that they should act as a veto upon that bloc of delegates is if a major catastrophe loomed…say an utterly irredeemable criminal act by the candidate, a major ongoing sex scandal with a minor, the candidate falling deathly or mentally ill, something of that nature. Which church they attended or whether or not the “misremembered” coming under sniper fire in Bosnia doesn’t rank up there, sorry.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I also think that the Superdelegates should not feel bound by prior oral committments to candidates. Those who have stated their committment to any candidate should be able to switch. After all, they should vote their “conscience” and an earlier committment cannot be binding. So the Clinton campaigns assertion that Superdelegates can vote their conscience plays both ways. It doesn’t simply apply to those that haven’t enunciated their decision. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The reality though is that what we have here is an example of vote-trading more than anything else. Many of the S-Delegates want to enunciate their support for her, but only if their own votes aren’t decisive. If it turns out that they will flip the result they may, as a collective face the wrath of the Democratic electorate- and that would play out especially in districts where Obama won handily. Thus they actually “benefit” if the race doesn’t narrow to point where she’s within striking distance with their votes. If it does narrow watch several of them actually jump over to Obama.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My position on this is strong. While superdelegates can vote their “conscience”, the most significant consideration should be the will of those that voted in the 52-odd Democratic Primaries and Caucuses. The exclusive reason that they should act as a veto upon that bloc of delegates is if a major catastrophe loomed…say an utterly irredeemable criminal act by the candidate, a major ongoing sex scandal with a minor, the candidate falling deathly or mentally ill, something of that nature. Which church they attended or whether or not the “misremembered” coming under sniper fire in Bosnia doesn’t rank up there, sorry.</p>
<p>I also think that the Superdelegates should not feel bound by prior oral committments to candidates. Those who have stated their committment to any candidate should be able to switch. After all, they should vote their “conscience” and an earlier committment cannot be binding. So the Clinton campaigns assertion that Superdelegates can vote their conscience plays both ways. It doesn’t simply apply to those that haven’t enunciated their decision. </p>
<p>The reality though is that what we have here is an example of vote-trading more than anything else. Many of the S-Delegates want to enunciate their support for her, but only if their own votes aren’t decisive. If it turns out that they will flip the result they may, as a collective face the wrath of the Democratic electorate- and that would play out especially in districts where Obama won handily. Thus they actually “benefit” if the race doesn’t narrow to point where she’s within striking distance with their votes. If it does narrow watch several of them actually jump over to Obama.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369058</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369058</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Norske must have seen the Ed Markey show with the oil boys earlier.  Can definitely make one a little testy, with good reason!  I just handed all my pathetic wealth to the Electric Company, to see,  Oil Company, to heat the home, Mobile to fuel my car, and a tax exempt health insurance corporation, or I will have my state tax return taken by the state next year as they hold me hostage on the chance I my get hurt!!  What a deal for the  Corporations while Americans are raped and sodomized by corporate scum protected by the rule of “asinine” law, bought and paid for by legalized influence peddling and pandering!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norske must have seen the Ed Markey show with the oil boys earlier.  Can definitely make one a little testy, with good reason!  I just handed all my pathetic wealth to the Electric Company, to see,  Oil Company, to heat the home, Mobile to fuel my car, and a tax exempt health insurance corporation, or I will have my state tax return taken by the state next year as they hold me hostage on the chance I my get hurt!!  What a deal for the  Corporations while Americans are raped and sodomized by corporate scum protected by the rule of “asinine” law, bought and paid for by legalized influence peddling and pandering!</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369057</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369057</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;twain at 88–me too, i liked grizzly adams.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>twain at 88–me too, i liked grizzly adams.</p>
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		<title>By: JTMinIA</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369055</link>
		<dc:creator>JTMinIA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369055</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh, well, if Harry Reid is on board, then you must take it as a done-deal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Unless, of course, you’ve been paying even a tiny bit of attention to the Senate for the last year.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, well, if Harry Reid is on board, then you must take it as a done-deal.</p>
<p>Unless, of course, you’ve been paying even a tiny bit of attention to the Senate for the last year.</p>
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		<title>By: ThingsComeUndone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369050</link>
		<dc:creator>ThingsComeUndone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369050</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;FAXISTS LOL good post Dude!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FAXISTS LOL good post Dude!</p>
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		<title>By: merkwurdiglieber</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369047</link>
		<dc:creator>merkwurdiglieber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369047</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Same thing happened to Gary Hart in ‘84… he came into the convention&lt;br /&gt;
  with the vote and delegate lead, but the supers gave it to Mondale.&lt;br /&gt;
  Nothing new, really… we have been dead for that long, Clintonism came&lt;br /&gt;
  to save us in the 90’s and was the new normal til Junya busted out and&lt;br /&gt;
  gave us another chance at a real election.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Same thing happened to Gary Hart in ‘84… he came into the convention<br />
  with the vote and delegate lead, but the supers gave it to Mondale.<br />
  Nothing new, really… we have been dead for that long, Clintonism came<br />
  to save us in the 90’s and was the new normal til Junya busted out and<br />
  gave us another chance at a real election.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369046</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369046</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;after this primary is over, can we get rid of the whole super delegate thing all together? is there any reason to keep it?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>after this primary is over, can we get rid of the whole super delegate thing all together? is there any reason to keep it?</p>
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		<title>By: ekunin</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369045</link>
		<dc:creator>ekunin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/01/salvation-in-a-smoke-filled-room/#comment-1369045</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We confuse democracy with representative democracy. Representative democracy is essentially hierarchical with representatives thinking they know better than the ignorant masses which like it or not is us. Some hope the convention will be deadlocked with Al Gore arriving to save the day. Not only does it seem pretty clear Al Gore doesn’t want to be president (I don’t think he ever did) or why chose Joe L? Doesn’t say much for his judgment.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The fact remains people (including Hillary) hope for various reasons the super delegates choose Hillary over Obama. That might get me to say screw it and stay home knowing the great American experiment is over.  Christopher Hitchens has a recent article on Hillary in which she purportedly told Edmund Hillary that her mother named her after him except she was born in 1947 and he didn’t climb Everest until 1953. Eventually she conceded she misspoke much like her recollection of sniper fire in Bosnia. There is something seriously wrong with that woman. As for super delegates, you either believe in democracy or you don’t. If you feel the popular vote should be overruled for the sake of the party, you don’t get it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We confuse democracy with representative democracy. Representative democracy is essentially hierarchical with representatives thinking they know better than the ignorant masses which like it or not is us. Some hope the convention will be deadlocked with Al Gore arriving to save the day. Not only does it seem pretty clear Al Gore doesn’t want to be president (I don’t think he ever did) or why chose Joe L? Doesn’t say much for his judgment.</p>
<p>The fact remains people (including Hillary) hope for various reasons the super delegates choose Hillary over Obama. That might get me to say screw it and stay home knowing the great American experiment is over.  Christopher Hitchens has a recent article on Hillary in which she purportedly told Edmund Hillary that her mother named her after him except she was born in 1947 and he didn’t climb Everest until 1953. Eventually she conceded she misspoke much like her recollection of sniper fire in Bosnia. There is something seriously wrong with that woman. As for super delegates, you either believe in democracy or you don’t. If you feel the popular vote should be overruled for the sake of the party, you don’t get it.</p>
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