Al Sadr’s statement makes 9 demands to Maliki’s government which a member of the GorillasGuides team translated as follows:
"Based upon our responsibilities under the law [shariah] and for the sparing of Iraki blood and for the protection of the reputability of the Iraqi people, and for their unity both in terms of people and in terms of territory, and in preparation for its independence and liberation from the armies of oppression; and in order to put out the fires of fitna which the occupier and his followers wish to keep burning between Iraki brothers, we call upon the beloved Iraki people to measure up to their responsibility and their consciousness of law in sparing bloodshed and preserving peace in Irak, and its stability and independence.
The following is resolved:
1. Ending armed manifestations in Basra governorate and all the other governates.
2. Ending of attacks and illegal arbitrary detentions. [by GZG]
3. Demand that the government apply the law on general amnesty, and release all prisoners who have not had charges confirmed against them, in particular prisoners belonging to the Sadrist current.
4. We announce that we will repudiate those who carry weapons and target the government and service agencies and institutions, or the offices of political parties.
5. Cooperation with government agencies to bring about security and to charge criminals, according to due process of law.
6. We reassert that the Sadrist movement does not possess heavy weapons.
7. Efforts [meaningful efforts are to be made] for the return to their residential areas of those who were forced out as a result of security incidents.
8. We demand respect for human rights by the government in all of its security activities.
9. Working [meaningful efforts are to be made] towards the realisation of development and service projects in all governates."
This does not look like surrender to me but an offer of truce – if the Maliki government agrees to this set of demands (and these are actually demands Al Sadr has been making for a while).
With the clear evidence that Maliki – even with countless US air strikes, UK force support and US special forces fighting along side his army (h/t Juan Cole) – was unable to make headway against the Sadrist forces who not only held the bridges needed for Maliki to resupply his forces in Basra but also killed his closest security advisor, Al-Kadhmi, this week’s fighting has demonstrated even more the futility of our occupation. (For a knowledgeable Iraqi military analysis of the fighting and current situation, click here.)
As Time notes about the fact that the Mahdi Army will not hand over their weapons:
That raises the prospect that, even if the fighting does subside, the government’s offensive will have accomplished little. Militants in Basra will have successfully defied the Iraqi prime minister’s demand that they surrender, and his subsequent demand that they hand over their weapons. Rather than demonstrating the power of the central government and the weakness of Shi’ite factions, this week’s violence may have demonstrated the opposite.
Still, as good students of BushCo’s Iraq happy talk, a spokeman for the Maliki government said:
"A large number of people will listen to Muqtada al-Sadr’s call. Life will return to all of Iraq as before."
But as Fatih Abdulsalam of Azzaman writes:
All explanations are possible for the current fighting in Basra, the largest city in southern Iraq situated in an area which floats on massive oil riches.
But the reality of the situation which tells volumes about what is happening is the fact that war, in the fullest sense of the word, has been raging without interruption in Iraq for the past five years.
Over those years, bombing by war planes and shelling by heavy artillery have been raging across the country, telling everyone inside and outside Iraq that conditions for normal life are no longer possible.
Amid such circumstances in which villages, towns and cities turn into battle scenes, there are still some whose total state of denial spurs them to speak of successes and achievements.
Every now and then in the past five years, the government or the foreign occupiers would launch massive and bloody operations on Iraqis in major cities such as Karbala, Najaf, Baaqouba, Kut, and Basra and so on and so forth.
Fierce fighting takes place inside these cities with the main fodder being innocent Iraqi civilians among them women and children
In the past five years, Iraqis have been paying dearly for the blunders first of the foreigners who came to occupy their country and second of the Iraqis these foreigners have nurtured and supported to run the country.
The tragedy is that almost all political factions are armed and have raised their own militias groups. Even American occupiers today have their own Iraqi militias.
This is the harvest of the political process whose initiators relied on sectarianism to sell it to the Iraqis. It started with the fall of Baghdad to U.S. troops whose commanders and civil leaders sanctioned and Iraqi factional groups jumped on as a means to achieve their ends.
And now neither the Americans nor the factional government have the slightest idea of how to have it solved.
Previously, they spoke of ‘the Sunni Triangle’ where most of the military operations used to take place. They gave the world the impression that the other Iraqi ‘triangles’ were calm and serene.
Today the parties responsible for the occupation of the country, whether foreigners or their Iraqi lackeys, are to blame for the loss of a country which, with proper and wise leadership, could have now turned into a beacon of democracy and economic prosperity in the Middle East.
It will be very interesting to see how Petraeus tries to spin this as success when he appears before Congress in one week.
The video above is part 1 of 6 of John Snow’s Hidden Iraq – a view of Iraqis reality today. The full series can be seen here. (h/t Diane)
_ _ _ _ _ _
Thank you to all who sent such lovely and thoughtful comments on the announcement of the death of a beloved brother of the Guides team this week. I am sure your words and reaching across the divide between our peoples will be appreciated. Rev. Mike Kinman who has been in a dialogue with Mohammed Ibn Laith wrote a beautiful tribute and spoke of what he will do in response to Ali’s death – and I hope we will all follow his example.
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1
Thanks for this Siun
Diggit
Aloha, Siun!
Thank you, as always, Siun.
People of Iraq. I fully support your desire and thirst to get rid of the occupiers.
Lahoma
The lesson I take from all this is that Al Sadr is getting stronger, and Maliki and the folks he’s aligned with, weaker. I could be wrong about that, but the reports of defections from the security forces sent to the area illustrate just how tenuous the Iraqi government’s grip on events is right now.
What’s fitna?
One thing I did not see in that document was any indication of actions they would or would not take re: the Americans.
“It will be very interesting to see how Petraeus tries to spin this as success when he appears before Congress in one week.”
Maybe, on the other hand, he will use it as a platform to advocate McCain’s Hundred Years War…
Can’t quit now, the Surge is sort of working, well maybe…
Siun, what do you think will happen next in the short term? If Maliki was trying to suppress political opposition, will he be happy with a cease-fire?
bom dia, siun. thanks for the post and yes, sounds like an offer of truce as well, but you know birds gotta fly, Bushies and Co gotta lie….
“Fitna (فتنة) is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology.”
From last thread, to answer the question “Was Bush booed?”, a resounding YES is in order. Listen to the announcers kiss ass at the end :(
Thank you for that Siun.
Erdla
Bless ya noonan! ;)
Wasn’t it grand…! ;-0
http://thinkprogress.org/
Mahalo, that was what I’d figured from the context, I just wasn’t sure…!
Nice bit of boxing in the current government by calling for an amnesty Muqtada al-Sadr gets the credit if it happens because he called for it the Iraqi puppet government won’t get the credit.
So when people need things they will turn to al Sadr because he gets results. The puppet government in contrast is who the Americans turn to but don’t get results from.
Evening all … and special hello to Erdla who is up in the middle of the night!
It refers the two Islamic “civil wars” when the Ummah (Muslim community) became divided. They are seen as perhaps the greatest catastrophe even to befall the Ummah and repetition is to be avoided at all costs.
LMAO the look on shrub’s face is priceless. think i’ll go look at the video again. brb
Siunshine! Thank you for the update.
Here is Reuters video:
Sadr urges end to conflict
And who is going to go to bed and to sleep shortly after a very hectic day.
Rob …good question. I think Maliki is in a trap he set for himself. And I’m not sure he has any good moves.
CIA Chief says today:
On Iraq, Hayden said it could be “years” before the central government might be able to function on its own without the aid of U.S. combat forces.
Lahoma
A warm bom dia to Erdla as well.
Have a good rest … and give hugs from me to those little ones. It sounded like a very hectic day.
So I’ve been away from news for the past few hours … anyone hear anything new from Iraq?
No your right Maliki was suppose to win this fight with just his Iraqi forces Bush was beaming when he announced what was happening. Then Malki needed airstrikes American troops, British troops, Coalition forces, are there any Coalition forces in Iraq besides us and the English?
Then the press got word that Maliki ordered this attack all on his own, which I take as code that Bush is avoiding failure again.
There is no way Maliki orders an attack without America knowing about it
and approving of it. After all if Bush did think it was a dumb plan Bush can stop Maliki if he wants too.
Saba Ali Ihsaan has a partial answer up at our place. He’s right more often than he’s wrong.
Thank you, Erdla, and my deepest condolences to you and Du for Ali’s demise…!
Damn I wish this thing had an edit function…… I meant to add that he gives a good summary of the fighting from a professional military man’s point of view.
GZG is the national Army?
Everybody is heartbroken about that ctuttle – he was a very sweet child. Du spent most of that day in tears, he’s known both Mohammed and Ali from when they were born.
Green Zone Government
I believe GZG = Green Zone Government. I.E., Maliki as the BushCo puppet.
What does JAM mean?
Erdla … I do hope folks read Rev Kinman’s post (link above) … he said so much of what many of us feel and also shared how he will act on those feelings and that is important.
JAM is the Mahdi Army … “Jaish al Mahdi “
I was going to put quotes around the national part… I’d read an article that quite a few GZG forces in Sadr City had turned over their weapons to the Sadrists…!
Jaish Al Mahdi – which can be translated depending on context either as “Mahid Militia” or “Mahdi Army”
The first half of that post in particular is a must for FDL Siun/Guides readers.
Wholesale defections in Basrah upto and including turning there guns on other GZG units.
Thank you.
Oops, sorry…
So much for Maliki’s offer to buy the weapons of JAM and others…!
Erdla – thanks for the link to Saba Ali Ihsaan’s post … I will add a link to the post above since it is very helpful to get a professional analysis of the fighting.
I presume the Sadrists gave extra big bunches of flowers together with their copy of the Qur’an afterwards :-)
Thanks for the information. Now a really tough question: Assuming a Democrat wins the White House and the Americans leave Iraq during the year of 2009, what happens in the next five years in Iraq? Which political factions will rule the country?
Interesting first hand account from an Iraqi reporter in the NYT is here.
Seconded.
John Amato posted this at C&L…
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..-its-2018/
I have to say I’m very proud of the Iraki contingent who did a superb job under dreadful conditions including Saba Ali’s post 61 postings in all on the BAsrah “surge” – not bad for people who rely on generators for electricity. I know that quite a few of them badly ran down their stock of fuel so they could keep going.
There’s another group of people who should be singled out for especial praise this is from one of the English language postings:
I just finished reading and i agree wholeheartedly that enough was not done to stop this war. i’m joining in on the letter writing, more conversation, etc. anything to end this bloodshed.
My deepest condolences to Mohammed, Du and everyone at Gorilla Guides and thank you for speaking the truth and making it available to the rest of us.
Thank you, Siun, for this excellent post and especially for the link to Rev Mike Kinman. He articulates very well the helplessness and rage I feel this week, and gives some steps for finding ways to engage.
There really are no words, and yet he found some, as do you every week.
And to the Gorilla’s Guides family, again, there are no words. May you find peace.
Probably a mix of the parties affiliatied to the “Sunni” resistance fighters and the Sadrists will predominate. Maybe with Dawa and SIIC as very junior partners. But my hunch is that nationalists – that’s al-Sadr and the “Sunni” partys will form a coalition.
The willingness of the Red Crescent volunteers to do all they could for people – in such a dangerous situation – is amazing. And another reminder of why we so often sugget donating to them … which folks can do here.
The Guides team has done an amazing job of reporting – under the worst possible situation and while facing such sorrow. I saw the mention that posting would be light for a while as folks are running out of fuel for their generators and so will not have power. Please send our thanks to all for their willingness to sacrifice in this way so the world can learn the news.
That would be the GZG troops firing on the Red Crescent, right?
Yes
Sickening, doesn’t even begin to describe it… 8-(
unbelievable. your right, sickening doesn’t begin to describe it.
siun-as you know, i have spent the last days, since Ali’s murder, sending emails all over the place to clarify what is going on in iraq.
i have received emails back thanking me for sending them.
i’m not gonna name names, well, you know them, but everyone else, they are people you would recognize. i am not saying this for it to be about me. i am saying this for it to be about you–all who are reading this.
factual information is what wins. hands down. every. freaking. single. time.
get it through your heads, people don’t care about your emotions, how you feel, what you think, they care about factual information.
write letters correcting facts, call in to radio shows, with informatio- not an agenda. this is not about an agenda, it’s too DAMN IMPORTANT FOR THAT!
the facts are enough to carry what is pertinent. use them.
today, on the local radio show here, as i did the other day when Ali was murdered, i recited facts to them, and they responded. they already write letters and are involved in their communities, this was one more thing that they understood, once they had the facts to respond.
1-british troops, 1400 to hold an area the size of basra, not too active. pull out to airport.
2-they pulled out peacefully, no news reports reporting otherwise, i looked.
3-sadr has a conference of 300 tribal and religious leaders, like herding cats. they all agree, they all agree.
4-cheney visited (advising maliki to use the troops they have been training?)
5-maliki not likely to win election in the fall.
6-maliki and cheney back al-hakim-badr forces, iranian backed, we don’t care, cuz sadr is blocking oil legislation.
7-maliki for the first time heads an attack force
8-airstrikes for the first time, (iraqi forces have an air force?)
9-maliki offers payment for surrender of arms from sadr forces-which we must remember are not all allied. disparate factions. not all under the control of mahdi.
10-maliki losing military battle in basra/anbar
11-maliki extends deadline for sadr forces to surrender arms
12-emergency session of parliament called–shiite sect boycots. stalemate.
13- sadr calls pull out, offers 9 point plan, ’welcomed’ by iraqi gov’t. (i still have not been able to find a copy of that)
13-maliki loses militarily, and politically………did i miss anything?
what is left?
i said stalemate earlier in the day
i am now waiting for checkmate
are we at checkmate?
gg–i send you my most heartfelt, damn, i don’t have the words………just don’t. too much of a loss on your side……….i’m writing letters on ali’s behalf, that’s all i can say.
Agree with all of the above that the summary from Saba Ali Ihsaan was extremely helpful.
Siun, I’m not sure how realistic this idea is, but a high level map showing showing US supply routes moving north out of Basra might get some traction in the MSM. It might help journalists see visually how precarious the US supply lines are.
Thanks again for all your work.
and siun, thanks for posting rev. mike’s thoughts, i didn’t know if it was ok to post it or not.
glad you did.
this is all such a fucking shame.
It is our shame.
Yes.
Teddy you might want to read some of the dialogues that went on between Mike Kinman and Mohammed here are the two most recent. They’ve been censored but only for information that would identify were Mohammed and his family live or would identify other team members:
Mike and Mohammed and this Mike & Mohammed – August 22 2007
That dialogue is continuing and I think I can say that neither party is finding it easy going. A very very big part of what the group of Muslims and Christians (and now + one atheist – me!) that started what is on the site as “gorilla’s guides” is to foster dialogues. The late Laith Abu Mohammed and Du’s dad (markfromireland), Maryam, and Omar are convinced that the west needs to stop meddling and that mutual respect and understanding is essential if catastrophe for both sides is to be averted. They’ve been at this for more than 20 years. Long time and some very worthwhile people. Mohammed himself is likely to be prominent in years to come both by birth and ability – I gather from some of the Iraki contingent he’s likely to be a judge of the Shariah even younger than his father was. Granted he loathes the USA and makes no secret of that but as he puts it:
Actually, Boo, the supply route further west from Basrah, the Kuwait to Baghdad route is more vital to our troops… I truly envision Saigon ‘75 scenarios…
Sadrists to Maliki:
“All your Basra are belong to us”
Dmac … your work has been so important and I hope that many will follow your lead. It’s so important we get the real information out and all of us can write our local papers and call our local news folks and do the same each time we see CNN and such get it wrong … the more we speak up, the more chance we will be heard.
Thank you for your work D.
What do you think might happen to the Kurds and the northern region of Iraq?
Confound you – you thought of it first and now I am going to have say “h/t neurophius” when I say it.
and i forgot to add, that i have been saying in my letters and calls, that the us has a problem with sadr being in charge of basra, because in the muslim religion, they only hold reverence to god.
that is not in our interest, al-hakim has more of an interest in money.
sadr is not interested in being beholdin’ to a corporation, not to a corrupt government, that has been the hard part to meet in the middle.
but they know how to branch that breach.
that’s why he has constantly been of one message, unity in iraq.
they will do as other muslim countries do. they are muslim.
and those countries are doin’ just fine, we let them do just fine.
but this time, we wanted to control which muslims should be in control of the trade, the tariffs, the commerce.
we chose so many, all of them have fallen by the wayside.
maliki, silly-putty. even cheney couldn’t make him steel.
Boo … I will check for that. markfromireland was yelling about the supply lines several years ago … and Pat Lang – who I do not agree with politically but who I respect immensely as a fair person and an amazingly knowledgeable military source is discussing the supply lines often – you can read him here.
Heh, no worries the Turks will take good care of them…! 8-(
The dialogue between Mike and Mohammed is fascinating and important and I’m glad they are willing to share it in public now.
They’re going to get hammered. They’ve pissed of the Irakis, they’ve pissed of the Turks, and they’ve pissed off the Iranians. They’ve pissed of the Iranians so much that for the last two years the Iranians allow batalion sized units of the Turkish army to freely operate on their territory in pursuit of Kurdish rebels.
If their leadership has any sense they’ll cut a deal – I’m NOT expert on this but that seems to be the consensus. A deal is cuttable apparently but the idea of an independent Kurdistan isn’t on the cards unless the can keep it militarily and they can’t.
The important point is to look at a map. All those important rivers going through Iran, Iraq, Turkey, all rise in the Kurdish mountains. There is no way in hell the Turks and the Iranians in particular are going to let what would be a very hostile state take control of those headwaters.
Just a thought. What about a post/thread dedicated to compiling a list of questions we would like Senators/Congresscritters to ask Petraeus next week?
I would love to send such a compiled list to every elected official in advance of the hearings.
Dmac thank you.
All: Dmac is right hammer them with emotion if you must but make sure you have facts at your disposal. That gets noticed.
Eureka! what a great idea!
I’ll chat with Jane about a time and we can do a post to compile the list then send it …
super idea
And perhaps the press too.
Much appreciated.
Completely agree about Saigon ‘75. Joe Wilson, and he was far from the first, said that he feared we would have to fight our way out. Steve Gilliard (RIP) had the same fears.
Thanks for your input. I hope the country can transform itself into a peaceful and stable nation in the long term. It’s obviously going to be a tough long fight. The first step is the ending of the occupation, of course.
It’s still going on Siun or at least was before Ali was shot by those troops. I really hope that after the 40 days is over that it will resume. incidentally we took a pdf copy as is our habit of Jane’s post together with comments and will mail it to Mohammed in a week or so. So he will get to “hear your voices”
Only utilizing my twenty years of Army training to ascertain that conclusion… As a NCO, I might add… Where were our strategic thinkers, the Generals…? Oh yeah, co-opted …! 8-(
Thank you Erdla … it was so good of Jane to immediately offer and then post that moment of silence and so lovely of firepups to make so many thoughtful comments.
I was quite incapable of being literate that day … Jane knew exactly what to say – and is also thinking about more ways we can support Iraqi children.
The videos from John Snow are quite remarkable – I’m halfway through and they are hard but powerful.
Feel free. No disrespect to anyone intended. I thought of it and just had to say it.
thanks siun, hadn’t caught up on everything, i just looked all over for the 9 points….shouldave known to ask you.
siun to what you were saying about what i do, not totally articulatly written as my letters are, here’s what i do that i never ever talk about here, but lately, after Ali’s murder, i have……..i’m gonna catch up on comments now.
here’s what i wrote the other night—and i completely believe in my heart that it is true-
dmac March 29th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
180
siun, i’m hitting the hay soon, just wanted to say, again, i really feel that getting the facts out there is an affective way to bring this to an end…..after all, that’s what you and gorillasguides.com are doing….
just keep sending out the facts to anyone, no need to spin it…
and i think some in the media are starting a competition to see which ones can get the facts right. i’ve noticed a change in tone when they ’roundtable’ lately….
now that information is out that contradicted what they said, that showed they didn’t even know shiite from suni, they’re comin’ in a little more prepared. every time i hear something not accurate, if i know it, i send a letter to inform…..their guest may be gone by then, but they can catch it the next time someone spins a lie on their show, it makes them look bad and affects their reputation, and that’s what i tell them.
if they are someone that cares about that, then they are going to make sure it is told correctly the next time.
and yes, i believe that there are a few that do care about that. they just can’t read everything.
so, if you hear an inaccurate thing, or a spin that isn’t a complete telling of a fact, send the fact and correct it, with the desire to educate.
nite all
=======
here is what i wrote when i read that Ali was murderd, totally dumbstruck. anyone who has been at a memorial service or funeral can picture it, imagine mohammed, having to do this again, and again, and again.
i so want to take him in my arms and not let him go.
Moment of Silence
head bowed
hands clasped
staring at my still alive hands.
no words
my mind is numb
staring at my still alive hands
tears falling on my still alive hands.
my first thought was that it certainly SOUNDS like we’re on the loosing side, and just judging from everything else the current US government, and I DO mean the WHOLE GOVERNMENT, has done over there (or anywhere else), I’m sure that’s accurate.
i.e. “sounds about right!”
Siun, I have to truly thank you and GG, and numerous other disparate voices for your tireless efforts to expose the horrors and utter madness that we’ve brought to the Irakis!!!
Have you thought about helping out with the late “Lurch’s” site Main and Central? They’re looking for people who would post there. My impression is that they don’t want somebody who will try to be another “Lurch” but they do want people with a voice of there own and who actually thinks about things.
Just a thought.
So let’s all collect lists over the next few days of our questions for Petraeus … I’ll set up a time for us to collect them in a post and comments and then we can use spotlight and our our skills to get them raised for the hearings.
Eureka! Eureka
exactly.
sadly, what is mostly missing is respect and understanding on the part of the west.
I appreciate so much your team’s efforts, Siun’s fine posts and the dialogue generated here that must have a ripple effect at least and hopefully a veritable avalanche soon…
(it should have been seismic before hell was unleashed.)
What a great idea … CTuttle .. hope you’ll consider Erdla’s suggestion …
Agree.
This was Joe Wilson’s question back in December 2006 at FDL:
Hold Petreus’ feet to the damn fire until he provides damn specific answers.
Since the Bear Stearns Collapse maybe the Democrats will be less Vichy regarding the cost of this disaster.
I also recommend they ask Petreus if he (and the Joint Chiefs) was sick the day they taught the HUNT Report on Occupations at West Point. From Sara at tnh:
More George C. Marshall
FWIW, here’s a summary of the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force which of course everyone continues to ignore.
The questions posed by the Powell Doctrine, which should be answered affirmatively before military action, are:
1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
7. Is the action supported by the American people?
8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
Actually, emptywheel and Swopa have written really well on this. We have air, land, and naval supremacy, so why aren’t we “winning?” It’s a 4G war and we only have three G’s. This is a battle for hearts and minds and we’re never going to “win.” George Washington and Ho Chi Minh used the identical strategy. All they had to do was “not lose.”
Do what Olbermann always does. Bush told us “Mission Accomplished.” We need to hire Karl Rove to get that message out in the Iraqi press.
I’ve followed Lurch (RIP) and Main and Central, but, never thought of that…! Heh, I guess I could try…! ;-)
everything Gilliard predicted is coming to pass
no words, only tears
starting with Powell himself.
ugh.
gg–i have had many inspirations in my life
i have had many misfortunes,
that have led to many inpirations in my life.
i have been blessed to be an inspiration,
leading to many inspirations in my life.
i have never had such an inspiration
as you, in my life.
I hope you do. And if there are any other veterans reading this I hope you too will think about it. That is too good a site to lose!
Late to the party. Excellent post, Siun, excellent. Everybody here gets it, let’s see what spin the echo chamber puts on it this week. If it weren’t so tragic it’d be funny.
and gg-according to the title of this post-
that’s what i learned about iraq this week.
Powell was so pissed that none of his pillars were addressed properly, and, Wilkerson, his aide-de-camp reported each and every pillar being demolished dutifully…! Shinseki was shown the door, and, Fallon was shown the door… What’s next!
I’d second Erdla’s suggestion and CT, please check into it. We need the wisdom of our vets to help us understand.
CTuttle, you’d be wonderful! Go for it.
They’re a very impressive group dmac. (Alright I am biased I am married to one of them) I have had to do some very drastic rethinking as a woman and convinced feminist. I had not really a feeling more an attitude that Iraki women were helpless victims. There are plenty of victims but I learnt as well that a lot of them are very tough – I’ve made wonderful friends with some of the women there. Very tough – just to survive and then to raise a family get and then on top of all that get involved and actually do something about trying to make things better for everyone. Very tough bunch of women not victims at all – survivors.
Yes right ON and I can’t wait until the attack on Iran.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.
siun at 77–the rev mike thread, the link above that you offered, i did post it once, i didn’t know if it was ok, to send it around, guiltily, i did send it to a few ’choice’ people…i didn’t want to get him in trouble, but i guess that we are way past that now…………i am glad that you put it out there. and that he was willing.
it was such a rich depository for me.
i hope that it is read by anyone that has heard the word ’iraq’.
and is used as a resource. use it.
oh my, i am so overwhelmed.
i am so overwhelmed.
let it not distract me from reciting the facts.
Uhoh, I have to persuade JoFish if I’m worthy to contribute…! *g*
joe6pac—-to you and all that you represent—
as i stated in the last thread-
i have held back from saying, but am now going to say, if i could wave my magic wand and get rid of a phrase from the english language, it would be–
joe six pack
i think it is the white equivalent of the ’n’ word and the sexist ’c’ word.
i wish it would go away.
Go for it :-)
Next moonless nights are April 5,6,7.
dmac … we’re on the same wavelength there – so often we forget that folks are just folks, sharing common concerns of raising their families, gettting by, doing their best.
Erdla … I must say that from what I’ve seen, you fit in very well with the amazing women of Guides!
Just heard on TV that my good city of Chicago cut energy use by 5% last night during the Lights Out … that’s pretty good!
gg at 108—
i am one tough ’chick’ and cannot imagine your resoursefulness(sp?)……..truly, i wish knew you.
with everything i feel, i want to make you matter here. i want you to be acknowleged. i have worked for that for a long time, in this thread i have ’come out’…..that’s what i do, you matter to me.
that is what i want for you.
highest regards, and a titty-smashing hug that lasts until we laugh. that is what i want.
the kind of hug that women do in private. bound by respect and lovel
i will continue to do what i can.
anybody still here?
I’m off gang … daughter returning from a trip in a few minutes … thanks for good conversation and some great ideas.
Erdla – thank you as always for helping us to understand! now get some sleep!
Hi Beerfart … almost gone here …
The twins will shortly start complaining about hunger and that the milk service is nowhere near as punctual as it should be so goodnight everyone.
Goodnight Erdla!
get that milk!
NPR tonight skewed this story by saying that Sadr backed down because he didn’t want to tangle with the U.S. military.