[Please welcome Jan Crawford Greenburg in the comments. As always, please stay on the topic of the book and be polite -- all off-topic discussion should be taken to the prior thread. Thank you! -- CHS]
When discussing issues, legislation and legal wrangling in our government, far too often the human element of those who make up our governmental branches gets lost in the analysis. But it is often that the most enormous shifts occur not on a matter of fact, but on a matter of ego or personal experience.
We are a government of laws, but it is the men and women who interpret them, who write them, and who advocate on behalf of various interpretations on each side of conflicts who brings those laws to life.
This can be especially true at the highest levels of the federal bench, where judges are routinely asked to craft opinions based on the ramifications of the law and the facts, but where passionate arguments can be swayed with a single phrase or spun-out conclusion that grabs the attention of the bench. The rarified air of the Supreme Court of the United States and its insular practicing bar and clerk pool has always been the holy grail of legal practice — what every lawyer with constitutional aspirations wants to attain, but very, very few ever do so over the course of a lifetime.
Supreme Conflict manages to crack the robes of the SCOTUS, and give us a glimpse behind the scenes of the Court in a detailed, personal way that very few people outside those who have worked the marbled halls ever know. Jan Crawford Greenburg manages to pull off the impossibly personal and, in doing so, reveals the squabbles, the personalities, and the altogether too human frailties of the Justices. And the fragile intricacy in which their decisions are determined and rendered, with the shifting personalities and emphasis of the Court over time.
The portrait which emerges from Supreme Conflict is a rough-and-tumble glimpse into the inner sanctum of the Court — from Scalia’s sharp elbows to Thomas’ tin social ear to Roberts’ genial naivete in his first year as Chief. And I could not put it down.
The stakes in each new judicial appointment to the SCOTUS could not be higher, especially at a time when divisions are so sharply defined on both sides of the political divide. Supreme Conflict’s background on the ebbing and flowing of sentiments on the Court shifting with each appointment is most keenly detailed with the story behind the social missteps of the newly appointed Clarence Thomas, and his alienation of the key justices on whose hopes conservatives had set themselves — Justices O’Connor and Kennedy. And it was this disappointment in shift, and the subsequent successes of the Clinton years at placing the sharply intellectual yet socially skilled Justices Ginsberg and Breyer on the bench that cemented a conservative strategy that was not countered by the interests of the left in subsequent years.
Meet Leonard Leo of The Federalist Society:
Shortly after Bush asked Roberts to be chief justice, [William] Kelley and [Harriett] Miers met with the Federalist Society’s Leonard Leo in Miers’ office in the West Wing. Leo, the executive vice president of the conservative legal group, had taken a leave of absence from his job so he could work full time on judicial nominations, and he met often with White House officials, particularly Kelley, to discuss prospects and strategy. Leo was responsible for representing the views of judicial conservatives, while Jay Sekulow, the well-spoken general counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, who argued religion cases in the Supreme Court, represented the views of social conservatives….
Dozens had gone through media training at the Mayflower Hotel with an outside public relations company, the same firm that produced the controversial advertisement by the Swift Boat veterans against presidential nominee John Kerry during the 2004 presidential race. Of the more than two dozen originally on the list who had planned to forcefully defend Bush’s nominee to the media, only a handful concluded they were willing to speak out in support of Miers [once she was nominated]….
Who paid for this media training? A plethora of conservative legal interest groups, all of whom were willing to put their time and money on the line to achieve these objectives. This is a long-term strategy to place ideologically conservative judges on the federal bench, to implement conservative policy objectives from underneath judicial robes. It is a policy in set into motion since Ed Meese took the DOJ helm during the Reagan Administration, long before Robert Bork’s confirmation hearings went awry.
…Meese trumpeted "originalism," a way of interpreting the Constitution that limits a judge’s focus to the document’s exact words and the original understanding of its meaning. The only rights and originalist judge will typically recognize are those specifically mentioned in the Constitution’s text. Under this restrictive approach, cultural and social issues would be decided not in courts but in legislatures, which conservatives say are better suited to implement the people’s will….
"The stakes here are immense — whether or not this President can leave behind a Supreme Court that will carry forward the ideas of the Reagan Revolution into the 21st century," Patrick Buchanon, the White House communications director, wrote in a 1985 memo to Donald Regan, Reagan’s chief of staff. Political advisors like Buchanon also knew that a successful Supreme Court nomination would bring other rewards, including a chance to score political points with the conservative groups that turn out to vote on election day.
But what movement conservatives and political ideologues miss is this: the personalities and histories of the people appointed to the Court are not static, they are fluid. The Roberts Court is in its second year, and has resulted in a number of very conservative roll-backs in civil rights, labor and other areas of the law compared to prior years. But will this hold, given that this was also the pattern of decision-making in Justice Kennedy’s first couple of terms?
And will liberal legal interest groups unify on their objectives, rather than fracturing their message, with the fundraising potential of each new nomination taking precedence for far too many groups instead of fighting hard for more moderate or liberal justices being placed on the bench?
With the next election cycle, a new president will likely have at least one, if not more, opportunities to reshape the Court with another new appointment should Justice Stevens or Ginsberg or Souter decide to step aside. And, if so, as the Thomas and Souter nominations especially have shown, those appointments can have far-reaching, unintended consequences.
With that, I want to welcome Jan Crawford Greenburg and open the floor for discussion on Supreme Conflict.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Christopher Eisgruber, The Next Justice: Repairing the Supreme Court Appointments Process
- Early Morning Swim: Special Rachel Takes Down GOP Attacks on Sotomayor Edition
- At Pivotal Moment in Supreme Court History, Corporate Media Wonders if Sotomayor is “Racist,” “Activist”
- Conservative Justices Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas Say Virtually Bribing Judges is Okay
- Supreme Court Will Hear Uighur Case





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Welcome, Jan!
Jan, Christy, welcome to the Lake.
Thank you! It’s nice to be here with you this afternoon.
Welcome, Jan — thanks so much for being here to discuss Supreme Conflict with us today. Fascinating read.
I particularly loved the background information on the back and forth on the Planned Parenthood v. Casey through to the present line of cases on partial birth abortion arguments. The Court dynamics on that issue alone are incredibly fluid — much more so than even someone watching from the outside would have known without close contact with the Court. Really a fascinating peek on the O’Connor and Kennedy thought process there, especially.
How hard was it to get former clerks and even justices to open up for thsi book?
I have been looking forward to this all week.
Loved your book. Me, I’m a sucker for insider dish.
Hi Jan, and thanks Christy.
This is such a critical issue in this election, I’ve been looking forward to the discussion.
I noticed in you discussion of he Clinto ear nominations there was no mention of the Lani Guinier of Kimba Wood and the ridiclous “nannygate” disqulaifications.
Maybe it was because I was really pulling for Judge Wood, but I found that amazing, no one ever asked male Supreme Court nominees about the immigration/withholding tax status of the guys who mowed their lawns. It seemed a striking ommission, was there a particular reason why?
The subtitle of the book describes it very well: “The inside story of the struggle for control of the United States Supreme Court.”
Thanks, Jan, for a very insightful narrative!
Me, too — I spent way too much time trying to play “pinpoint the source” as I was reading this, too. Not that Jan’s going to let us in on all of them, but it sure was amusing trying to figure out from whose perspective particular quotes were coming. And I felt awful for Harriet Miers being thrown in the DC shark pond all over again…that was painful to re-live, frankly.
Jan, I enjoy your blog Legalities and the diverse opinion found in the comments. One of my favorite posts was your post on professions and motherhood.
I look forward to reading Supreme Conflict when it arrives. For now I’ll sit back and lurk while fdlakers who have read your book, ask you questions.
Thanks for the kind words re the book. I’ll just start with Christy’s question about access. I started this project right after CJ Rehnquist announced in the fall of 2004 that he had cancer–a time when everyone thought George Bush would be replacing only one Justice (O’Connor’s announcement that she, in fact, would retire the following summer was a bombshell, but we can get to that later). I’d covered the Court since 1994, so I was a familiar face and presence there, and I sent all the justices letters outlining the project and asking if they’d be willing to sit down with me. I was gratified that I eventually was able to talk with nine of the justices–some more than once, some completely on the record, some surprisingly frank and, well, surprising. And once you’re talking to the Justices, the clerks are more comfortable talking, too.
Of course, they all had things the would not discuss–confidences they would not reveal. But in the end, I was able to piece together some pretty amazing stories that certainly opened my eyes–and even changed my mind.
Supremes don’t have to be lawyers or former judges. Why not select some brilliant scholar who doesn’t come from within the legal system? Would that be a bad thing? One thing is sure they would have a tract record of cases.
Christy wrote: “the personalities and histories of the people appointed to the Court are not static, they are fluid.”
Can you say “Blackmun”?
Though I am a pastor and not a lawyer, I’ve followed the court for years and years — often was the assistance of Jan’s regular appearances on the PBS News Hour. To pick up a book like this, written by a veteran courtwatcher like Jan, was a real delight.
I found myself nodding along to the descriptions of public events, like the various confirmation hearings, and was surprised at some of the behind-the-curtain stories that emerged. As I read along, the question that I kept wondering about is which parts of the book were surprises to Jan?
Jan — I thought the background on the Patterson case was especially poignant, with the material on Thurgood Marshall’s arguments in conference being quite fascinating. How much of that was drawn from Marshall and Blackmun’s notes — or from interviews with folks who were working with the Court?
I really enjoyed the history on the interpersonal relationships within the Court from that timeframe, especially O’Connor’s relationship with Brennan getting off on a thorny foot. Never knew about that at all.
You opened the door with that last sentence. What did you change your mind about?
Changed your mind about what? I couldn’t let a cryptic comment like that pass w/o follow-up
Do we know how the justices actually formulate their opinions? The votes seem almost predictable and I wonder if they decide first and then find some logic to support their decision.
Isn’t it odd that the law is subject to interpretation and is so imprecise?
It would take such a person years — and I mean YEARS — to get themselves up to speed unless they had some background of legal scholarship. Which would then throw off the Court schedule enormously as a result. Jan details how hard it was for each of the more recently appointed justices to get themselves up to speed on the Court procedures and the legal intricacies, and they all had varying legal and judicial backgrounds.
I’m not certain that a state court judge could make the leap the way the process is set up at this point. When you read about the difficulties that Harriet Miers had just preparing for her practice sessions alone, you see how hard it can be for someone outside the Constitutional milieu to make that work. It would be extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, under the best of circumstances.
Jan, thank you for writing such a great book. It’s all fascinating, esp. the Harriet Miers debacle. How did no one recognize how ill-prepared she was for (a) the sophisticated constitutional law issues with which she had inadequate experience or (b) the ideological battering from the right which followed?
[If I can ask a second question: ultimately, Edith Jones could have been confirmed, correct?]
I don’t guess it will surprise any of you to learn the Harriet Miers story was hands down the hardest part of the book to report. For months, no one in the Bush Administration would talk about it–it’s almost like they wanted to pretend (for good reason) it never happened. As an aside, I did spend a couple days trying to figure out if there was anything to those conspiracy theories that she was some smokescreen–that the WH nominated her knowing she would go up in flames so it then could get Alito on. I quickly realized that gave the WH way too much credit. Bush honestly believed she was the best choice and was qualified for the Court–which outraged conservatives, as we saw within minutes of her nomination. In some ways, she was doomed from the moment she stepped before the cameras. Conservatives staunchly opposed her. Senators, Democratic and Republican, were skeptical. And she, of course, struggled to get her footing–she’d never practiced appellate law and was unfamiliar with some of the constitutional concepts John Roberts had so eloquently discussed in all his meetings on Capitol Hill.
As you may sense from the chapters on Miers, I walked away feeling saddened by the entire episode. Clearly, her nomination was a mistake, but on a human level, you just hate to see someone so utterly humiliated on every level—as she was.
OT: sort of…Is the Book Salon held at this time every week. I want to put it on my calendar. Thanks.
There was an iteresting article recently in the NYT: Supreme Court, Inc. which shows that the corporations now have the lock on the court the evangelicals thought they were going to get. Heh….
It would be interesting to hear our guest discuss, briefly, those times that SCOTUS has not held sway over the other two branches, which is what we are used to from the Warren court legacy, as I believe we are headed into another period like that.
At least if we are to avoid the worst of what could happen with a corporatist court and a power mad executive running rough shod over our rights it would be interesting to hear what Congress, now shifting to the progressive side, could do to offset these shifts in power.
Is Alito as socially inept as he appeared at his confirmation hearing?
Welcome, Jan;
I’ve read (and written) references to the most recent appointments to this court having been selected not because of their social issues, but because of their willingness to protect multi-national US based corporations from liability or regulation.
The social issues were only used to get the fundies and evangelical voters to get behind Bush. But it is really the protection of big business, not conservative social reform, that is behind Bush’s appointments.
Just wondered if that is skewed logic, or is there some real evidence to back it up.
I thought that was an especially fascinating part of it as well — how on earth could they not have known that folks like Ted Olson or Robert Bork or other conservative “legal scholar” types would be horrified at a Miers nomination. I can remember my first post on Miers the day she was nominated, pulling together everything I could find on her and being struck by how thin it was on anything of substance — so much of it was managerial and political, which was not nearly what you’d expect, especially following John Roberts into the fray.
It was painful to watch what happened after that, too…
I’m going to digress from Supreme Conflict for a second to say thanks to Neil. That posting on Justice O’Connor and “choice” was something I’ve thought about for a long, long time. And it struck me how relevant that conversation was when I saw the offensive commentary about Hillary–and the distressing absence of outrage about it. That blog posting was a deeply personal one, as I’m sure was obvious. And I was incredibly moved by some of the comments and emails I got about it. So thanks to all of you who took the time to write and share your thoughts and experiences with me.
When the nominee takes these trips to capitol hill to chat up senators, are these talks real substantive? Are they secret and off the record, or do we get to know what was discussed?
Yes – on both Saturday and Sunday. You can click on the button at the top marked “Book Salon” to get the rundown of upcoming books, as well as look as past chats.
Jan — Also, something that was incredibly fascinating, and not something I’d considered in potential nominee analysis at the time of the Roberts and Alito nominations, was how the timing of peers on the federal bench being approved through the Senate really affected the nominations — particularly for Clement, Jones and Estrada (although Estrada clearly took himself out of the consideration for understandable family reasons in there).
That sort of timing question may have been going on for quite a while in the judgeship approval process, but it never struck me as a strategic maneuver until I read this. Is this something that has occurred prior to the Bush years, did you find? Or was it a result of the bottleneck on judiciary appointments leftover from the GOP-controlled Senate and the Clinton years then spilling into the early Bush administration as well?
I can have no sympathy for Meirs. She clearly was doing as she was told and that just doesn’t cut it today. Our nation is facing issues which bear on it’s very survival and the idea that appointment to SCOTUS just like the idea that the ‘President get’s the benefit of the doubt….’ is no longer viable.
In retrospect we may be lucky if we escape Bush getting the ‘benefit of the doubt…’ without a societal meltdown from the harm he and his cabal have done to the nation.
Did Bush think Miers was best for the job because she shared so many of his views about the power of the Executive? Was that overriding for him, getting someone on the Court who could advocate on behalf of the wartime Unitary Executive?
I have not read your book, but did any Justices comment to you about Bush v Gore?
Thanks for coming to the Book Salon today — I look forward to your book, which I’ve just ordered.
I had a fascinating discussion with Obama about two years ago at one of those big Washington dinners. This was of course well before anyone realized he would be on the brink of being President, and I asked him if he’d ever like to serve on the Supreme Court. He didn’t hesitate. “No,” he said. His point then–and I’m assuming he believes it even more strongly now–is that the Court has ceased to be an agent for change, especially in light of the new conservative majority. And he passionately argued that the other branches must step up to the plate and do their part.
Thanks, Peterr — yes, the Book Salon button up top always has the latest on upcoming books for discussion, dates and times for the chats, and such. In case anyone is wondering what is next, we try to make it readily available for everyone.
Interesting indeed. The Founders did intend the relationship between the three branches to by dynamic and so it has proved to be.
We, as progressives, can only hope that that will continue and I submit to those here that control of Congress is going to be essential to the progressive agenda carrying the day. Starting, as we have already done, with the House.
I wondered as I was reading through the latter part of the book how Justice Stevens sees things from his long-term vantage point on the Court. That broad sweep of time, and the shifting of so many justices around him must be incredible.
O’Connor would have suffered by comparision if she was nominated in tandem with Roberts. And What about Souter?
Nope, having set the bar at Roberts, no ‘think outside the box” candidate could have survived. Not with hearings going on so close together. Which is why Estrada might have worked.
Estrada wasn’t an option at that point, for reasons that haven’t generally been discussed publicly nor should they be. Christy alluded to it.
Had the Dems confirmed Estrada during Bush’s first term, however, I have no doubt he’d have been Bush’s first SCOTUS nominee.
Aloha, Jan! Thank you for taking time to spend it here at the Lake!
Have you talked to O’Connor since she’s left the bench, about Kennedy’s ‘Swing Vote’ status. It seems he’s, by far, the most critical vote these days, overshadowing her previous role!
As I was reading the portion on the Miers nomination, and what William Kelley had to go through in trying to secretly vet his own boss, I couldn’t help but think what a crappy spot that was to be placed in…and then to have to be the one to step out. Ouch…
Just bought your book based on Christy and looseheadprop.
Forgot to use the FDL link.
Hitting head on keyboard.
Jan, what kind of reaction has your book gotten at the Court? Have you received (or sensed) any “source’s remorse” from some of the people you interviewed, once the book was published?
Let me first say how much I appreciate all these questions and comments. This is just an incredible forum.
Ok, I’m going to try to synthesize some of the Miers’ stuff, but if I’m overlooking a question, please come back to me with it–I’m not sure I’ve got the hang of this yet.
Bush wanted to nominate a woman or minority. The directive from Andy Card to the lawyers in the WH was “no white guys.” But the list was woefully inadequate for a bunch of reasons, among them
—some of the contenders were too old (there had been eight years of Clinton judges, remember), and the WH wanted a youthful nominee who would serve a long long time
—Bush’s top picks had been blocked by Dems in the Senate (Estrada, Janice Rogers Brown, Priscilla Owen, Carolyn Kuhl), and Republicans like Lindsey Graham had warned Bush off those contenders
—some had ethics problems
—some wouldn’t do it
—some weren’t considered “reliablly” conservative.
This last point was most important–Bush was “seared,” I was told repeatedly, by his father’s nomination of David Souter, and he was determined not to repeat that mistake. His dad did not know David Souter–his dad’s advisers (Sununu, mainly) swore Souter was a solid conservative. They were wrong. Bush would not repeat that mistake. He knew Harriet Miers. He believed she was conservative. And he believed she would not change–she would not drift to the left once on the Court.
So the Souter nomination, ironically (on many levels–esp when we look at his actions in other areas) drove Bush to nominate Miers. And conservatives reacted as if he’d done just what his dad did–nominate a justice who would turn out to be a liberal at the end of the day.
I thought the parts about Clement and Owen not being particularly workable were fascinating, too. I’d heard that Owen is tough to get along with on a personal level, but didn’t know much about Clement beyond her seeming judicial philosophy in general terms.
So much of the nomination process comes down to first impressions on a personal level, for all the background vetting and decision-reading. And it’s funny to see how those first impressions don’t always translate to workable personalities on the Court once they get confirmed.
Thinking about it on purely human terms was fascinating, as I went back through various decisions and concurrences and dissents in my mind, wondering how much of it was legal and how much of it was personal now.
Anyone else find themselves doing that, too? *g*
Thank you!
W’s Daddy-drama just never stops, does it?
I have to say, it is funny how frequently some problem of the first President Bush’s term seems to have been a motivating catalyst for something in the current President Bush’s term, isn’t it?
It never ceases to amaze me that having Justices who interpret the Constitution with a bit of empathy to real people is considered to be “liberal”.
(back to lurking)
I know he wasn’t that’s not my point. My point was that any nominee being considered virtually alongside ROberts was going to have to be someone with top flight schools, clerkships, DOJ experience, etc.
Estrada fits that mold, Meirs did not. Had the nominations been spaced differently, I wonder how different the outcome might have been.
*raising a hand*
Reading about Ginsburg’s dissent from the bench in Ledbetter v Goodyear and the behind the scenes commentary was fascinating. With the NCAA basketball game on TV in the other room, it’s hard to avoid sports metaphors right now, but the whole episode struck me as the seasoned veteran taking on the rookie, to knock him down a peg or two. “OK, you’ve got the votes, but here’s how a real justice talks about the law and the courts.”
Jan – thanks for coming buy. I’m about to order the book.
Curious about your thoughts on whether Roberts and Alito are adept politically and how they might interact with a democratic president. One of the more (personally) interesting things I pulled from Toobin’s book was the range of political ability of justices – from fluent to clueless.
Jan, I was struck by your reporting on the Ledbetter decision, and how surprised people were by Justice Ginsberg’s dissent from the bench. Given her background at the ACLU on their women’s rights law project — she practically carved that legal niche out of granite for all the rest of us — I wonder why they didn’t try and pull her out a bit more on the issue in conference, or seek her out in chambers as they were all working on their opinions.
Did you find that surprising at all as you were digging into that particular issue from the last term?
Isn’t almost all politics, and SCOTUS nominations are that for sure, about the personal. About judgment, about who knows who and what they know. Frankly, the nation is such a mess now because we, the people, have not been paying attention and we now have a government filled from top to bottom, left to right, with third-raters.
Folks who in the 30s, 40s and on thru the 60s would have been no more than staffers. In fact that’s what Cheney and Rumsfeld started out as. Too, too damn bad they didn’t stay that way.
We’ve had folks with poor judgment and small ability on the Court before but really…..
Meirs!
Thomas!
Scalia!
Sheesh, I’ve heard Professors from Boalt talking about Scalia in my YMCA locker room and I can’t repeat what they said here. Too nasty and too profane.
So….
We just wait til they die or….
Impeach a few?
Jan, why didn’t Bush elevate Scalia to Chief Justice instead of having Roberts as CJ?
I agree re Estrada. If he’d been confirmed to the DC Circuit, he would have been Bush’s pick.
But I’m not sure a state court judge or someone without the appellate experience of an Estrada would flop in the future. Miers really stepped into a perfect storm–she was following John Roberts, for one thing, which is a pretty unenviable place to be. She also is a quiet and understated personality. “Her strengths,” as one official told me, “take time to appreciate.” And that was something she did not have.
Unlike O’Connor, she lacked the assertiveness, the confidence in her meetings with the senators. (And you guys know that most of those senators aren’t as on top of things as, say, Chuck Schumer–you don’t exactly have to be dean of Harvard Law School to get through most those sessions, which aren’t always all that substantive.)
More than a few people in the WH still believe that Harriet Miers would be on the Court today if she had a personality like Karen Hughes. And they may be right–Bush never was troubled by the conservative opposition. He decided to pull the trigger on the Miers nomination only when it became clear everyone on the Hill had begun to turn against her. He believed the worse Democrats could make her look, the worse it would make him look–and it would be painfully easy to portray her as another crony in a big job. This, after all, was on the heels of “You’re doing a heck of a job, Brownie.”
Josh — Jan has quite a bit about Scalia’s sharp elbows and Thomas’ off-putting nature with O’Connor from the start. It’s really a fascinating thing to consider the Justices on the intellectual and legal arguments level, and then take that next step to the human interaction considerations that have to be a part of all of this, but never get nearly enough play in terms of public discussion.
I found myself thinking about Congressional activity in that context as well, and it makes the entire picture that much more richly layered in detail and understanding as you do.
I just looked back at DailyKos to see what I said upon the first rumors of Miers. Pre-nom: “Miers would infuriate his base. They are expecting a pro-life Sure Thing. I have no reason to believe she has ever said anything about it.”
Day of nomination: “Given the wealth of choices out there — people with clear misgivings about Roe like Edith Jones and Emilio Garza, or conservatives with the highest judicial reputations and long track records of strong beliefs like Michael Luttig, Michael McConnell or Danny Boggs — the President went in a wholly different direction.
“If Miers will indeed be a “justice in the mold of Scalia and Thomas”, well, this White House has a lot of explaining to do to its base. There is no reason to believe Miers will be the vote against abortion rights that they’ve been promised. “
I certainly don’t agree with some of the positions they have taken in their decison (OK most of the positions they’ve taken), but on what grounds would you impeach Scalia or Thomas? What have they done that is impeachable?
Yes, it’s always bothered me that Bush brought the old strict constructionist himself, Judge Bork, out of retirement on wingnut welfare at the Hudson Institute to bury Miers’ nomination. But, when Bush/Cheney rips the Fourth Amendment
and with it most of the Bill of Rightsout of the Constitution, Bork (and most other conservatives (except for Bruce Fein)) can’t seem to find their way a teevee camera.That post was great, so I’d like to quote it at length:
I think you speak for a lot of us. Thanks, Jan.
Jan has some detail about that in the book: he would have had to go through a separate confirmation process to elevate to the Chief’s position, and there was some concern that he would not do well (that prickly Bork-like personality not being a hearing asset and all). Plus, he’s older, which would have potentially allowed the next president to put in a new Chief within a 10 year span. I was intrigued by the fact that Scalia didn’t expect to be tapped for the position, but was hurt byt he fact that he wasn’t at least asked as a courtesy. Seemed like a political oversight given that they had done Thomas the courtesy before not tapping him either — and a slight that Scalia would not likely forget, either.
Exactly my feeling. It really seemed to have much more to do with timing. And I agree that the next pick does not necessarliy have to b ein the ROberts mold. Which is a good thing or else you end up WAY WAY WAY too inbred and the court will turn into an echo chamber of people with very simliar experiences.
A couple of reasons. They thought he didn’t have the ability to build coalitions and pull over wavering swing justices like Kennedy. They wanted to nominate someone younger. And they worried he’d run into problems with some of his trips and speaking engagements during a confirmation hearing.
Oh, and someone earlier had asked whether Edith Jones would have been confirmed. Democrats would have tried to filibuster her–she has written some pretty explosive things. But she never expected to be the nominee. I’ve heard the story that when W was elected, she said she knew her time had passed. She believed that Bush would never be so open, so brazen, in correcting his dad’s “mistake.” Remember that GHWB passed on Edith Jones to nominate Souter. She was the runner up and still in the WH when he announced his decision.
I agree.
[Here’s the link to that quote (the excerpt is taken from the bottom of the post).]
OK, Jan I waited untilthe thread had some meat on it before asking the question I have long wanted to ask you.
Who do you speculate/guess might be on the short list of SCOTUS nominees for each of the current presidntial candidates? Not all the prospects, but one or two really likely contenders.
Heh, you mean his duck hunting and Scottish outings would’ve been scrutinized… finally? ;-)
jan crawford greenburg says-at 41 (excerpts)
… swore Souter was a solid conservative. They were wrong. Bush would not repeat that mistake. He knew Harriet Miers. He believed she was conservative. And he believed she would not change–she would not drift to the left once on the Court.”
”And conservatives reacted as if he’d done just what his dad did–nominate a justice who would turn out to be a liberal at the end of the day.”
====
i found this last week, have been waiting for the right time–
harriet miers was a democrat in the 80’s, at least that’s where she put her money.
they must not have had very good research people, she was a medium-level strictly democratic party contributor in the 80’s. blew my gourd.
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/by…..st=harriet
this one is just ’03 primary bush/cheney contribution.
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/by…..st=harriet
i keep tellin’ you guys to use this website. it’s a motherlode of information.
Ooooh, good question!
That may have been because the Dem party was big in TX then, and as a managing partner at her firm, she would have had to spread donations around fairly evenly with both parties for the firm’s interests as much as anything else. Managing a large firm like that is a highly political job if done well, and she was clearly good at that to become the first female president of the state bar there.
And to a certain extent, doesn’t the position of chief justice dilute, at least somewhat, the ability to be dogmatic? The court would never get anything done.
Except it also carries with it the ability to assign who writes opinions (when he’s in the majority), which can be an incredibly powerful tool if done with a deft hand.
The phrase “deft hand” is not one that comes to my mind when I think of Scalia. “Heavy hand,” however . . .
*g*
One of the many, many reasons that Scalia was never going to get the nod, I’m thinking. *g*
How about stopping the vote in FL?
How about just sitting there like a big lump and never participating in the questioning of counsel about cases coming before them.
Impeachment does not have to be successful to be effective.
Do you think Thomas would look forward to another session in congress answering questions about his non-performance? It might make him or Scalia, say pal please explain why you are not recusing yourself on cases you have a financial stake in, pull in their horns a little. This is not ‘Justice we’ are talking about with this court.
It’s bare-knuckle, smash-mouth conflict and, further, I don’t think the Founders intended SCOTUS to be beyond ‘checks and balances’ which as we have seen if you spend all your time talking about them and not using them, pssssst Senator Leahy….pssst, become….
….useless.
Short form: Respect where respect is due. This court is due none on it’s record which is sure to get worse.
I LLLLLLUUUUUUUVVVVVVVVed it when they snubbed Nino!!!!!
I LLLLUUUUUUUUVVVEEEEEEDDDDDDDDed it!!!!!!!!!1
Given the role that personalities and relationships play in building winning coalitions on the Court, I’m wondering how Kennedy’s relationships are shifting, now that there is a much stronger, more reliably conservative block (with Roberts and Alito replacing Rehnquist and O’Connor).
Scalia in a nutshell: “Life is unfair, get over it! It’s not the job of the Supreme Court to formulate decisions that advance justice.”
I know – which makes the strategic choice of Roberts as CJ an annoyingly good one.
There are reports that Justice Souter strongly considered resigning in protest following the Bush v Gore decision. Do you know if that is true?
I think the interesting thing is how they would react to nominees a Democratic President makes to the Court. I could take this in about 100 directions here, but I’ll throw out a few things before I answer your question.
—The next President could get up to three nominations to the Court. Or he/she could get zero. O’Connor showed us all you never know.
—All three of the justices we expect to retire next (Souter, Stevens, Ginsburg) are liberal.
—The Court now is divided 5-4, with a conservative majority—but a shaky one, since Kennedy votes with liberals on issues like presidential power.
—The next nomination is pivotal. The next nomination could affect the direction of the Court for a generation. The next nomination could either firmly turn the Court to the Right (as conservatives hope and liberals fear), or it could preserve the status quo.
So here’s a question for you guys: Why isn’t the Court more of an issue in the presidential campaign? I’ve tried to figure this out for years. It never is. Even in 04–when we knew the next President would get at least one nomination–the Court was barely a blip. Why does the Court fail to register–when it in many ways is a President’s most lasting legacy?
If the next President is a Democrat, he or she can begin to undo some of what GWB has done. But it will be difficult, if not impossible, for them to turn the direction of the Court unless a conservative surprises us all and steps down in the next five years.
Now, back to your question.
Roberts and Alito are both intellectual heavyweights and savvy, collegial guys. They are very different in style and approach, but both are going to be much more effective than their predecessors in persuading wavering justices to go along.
Now the problem for them is that there aren’t that many issues–in cases where you expect a 5-4 split along ideological lines–that a liberal will be wavering. You’re much more likely to see their influence on the wavering Kennedy.
Someone asked earlier if Alito is socially awkward, as they said he appeared in his confirmation hearing.
I’d say no, and here’s why.
He’s quiet and reserved–though not at all shy. Nor is he lacking in confidence. But he is nothing like most people in Washington–at least at that level. He stands off to the side. He never tries to make himself the center of a discussion. He stands and listens. And then he asks questions.
I mention all of this for one reason: Those are all qualities that will hold him in enormously good stead with Justice Kennedy. Alito is incredibly smart and experienced, but unlike the Scalia, he’s not threatening or off-putting to Kennedy. He’s someone to watch as we try to figure out where Kennedy is going to land.
I’ve been wondering that, too — and wondering whether it is Alito or Roberts who has become his new pal for opinion persuasion discussions. The bit in the book about Breyer — who has been a longtime friend of Kennedy — rolling his eyes on the bench during the Kennedy concurrence opinion on the school desegregation case was a great detail. And it made me wonder about how things have shifted — whether it’s a permanent one or simply a case by case one.
FWIW, I think for many of the Front pagers and commenters here at FDL, the SCOTUS and lower courts are THE premier issue that overrides most everything else.
I’m sorta used to betrayals like when Janet Reno failed to pursue indictments against the Brooks Brothers Rioters for breaking the law. That sticks with me.
But the Court’s extra-judicial unreasonable arguments for selecting Bush for president was a knife in the back. I will never get over THAT one. And yes, all who signed on should have been impeached. My anger is deep and abiding.
We’ve tried to bring more of the Court’s importance to the fore this year — regularly covering legal issues and doing a monthly “First Monday” series in conjunction with the Alliance for Justice, doing regular updates with the ACLU and others as well.
But folks who have not followed the Court have a tough time for some reason understanding the far-reaching implications of a big change in its make-up. I wish I had an answer as to why, but I’m puzzled by that as well — and I talk about the issue nearly every week here… (In fact, the regulars are probably sick of me bringing it up lately. *g*)
I wonder if Jan has any insight on the perceived tendency for the Supreme Court to be very pro business at the detriment of the average American?
For the life of me, I don’t get it. Nor do I understand why women—aside from the Hillary supporters and the elders in NOW—aren’t more outraged.
I think there are a lot of women who are outraged, but are too busy paying bills and raising children and focusing on their families lives and homes to even know how to spell out their outrage.
I think some women are caught between Bobbitt and HRC.
But, amen, sisters.
It might not be a big national, across the board, “everyone’s talking about it” issue, but in certain voting blocks it is a huge issue. For the fundamentalist Christians, this was a galvanizing issue over the last six presidential election cycles that got them to the polls.
I think the possibility/likelihood of future SCOTUS nominations will get more traction in the coming presidential race, because of the way the Court is getting into dealing with some of the more troubling aspects of the Bush presidency, especially as it ties in with the Iraq war issue — treatment of prisoners, massive claims for executive powers, warrantless wiretaps, Bush’s grand grabs for executive power, etc.
McCain wants to run on the War, presenting himself as the best equipped to handle it; both Clinton and Obama would love to tie McCain to Bush’s war as well, given voter anger over the war. Given the likely centrality of the war as an issue, I think that the role of the courts in that war and the executive who launched it will no doubt come up in a very big way.
Right. And the one thing that’s surprised some people about Roberts is that he does not appear to have compromised his conservative views. Many Court watchers expected Roberts to be more moderate as Chief Justice. When he became Chief, he said he would be seeking consensus and more “narrow’ opinions. So some people (including some of the liberal justices) took that to mean he would be open to compromise himself.
(And remember some conservatives were initially leery of Roberts because he had kept his views so close for so long–they weren’t sure if he was all that “solid.”)
But instead, Roberts proved to be a forceful and reliable conservative–probably as close to Scalia as anyone on the Court. He has approached some cases more narrowly than Scalia–he’s been less willing to overturn past cases, for example. But there’s no mistaking he is a solid judicial conservative who isn’t going to change, despite the title.
Hardly, M’dear! Yet, we’re not Joe SixPack, either!
The first thing a leader needs to master is matching problems with resources. That seems too much work for Mr. Bush; he goes with what’s familiar and comfortable. Ms. Miers, whatever her ability to master responsibilities, was never politically or legally an appropriate choice for the Supreme Court.
Actually, there is quite a bit of commentary in the threads, contrary to what the ‘Big Men’ of the ’sphere believe many of us mere commenters know quite a bit about what is what, to the effect a ‘conservative’ nominee to SCOTUS would do to it’s ‘product’.
But….
It’s mostly from the point of view of Roe vs. Wade which while important is not what the conservatives on the Court are intent on. That would be the furtherance of the fascist, corporatist domination of our society.
And no….
I’m not kidding. Scalia and Alito and the slick talking Roberts may have gone to all the right schools and met all the right people but in the end.
They are Hamiltonians each and every one and the natural tendency for such minds is to head ‘Reich’. The likes of Thomas et. al. will meekly trail along.
You have stated that Alito and Roberts are highly intelligent individuals. What, IYO, motivates them to rule in favor of “conservative” (corporate) ideology when doing so flies in the face of common sense? I am thinking especially of environmental concerns.
JMO, for a lot of people at FDL, it’s the SC nominations that’s keeping people in what a lot of us consider a Vichy Democratic party. I’ll vote for the Democratic nominee for President, but I don’t see either candidate as a progressive/liberal.
That is not true.
But it is true that Souter talks about wanting to retire NOW. And it is true that his friends think he will retire in the next administration.
christy at 66-
thanks, i try to examine the possibilities when i look at data, i try to stay neutral and just look at it as data. i’ve come across many that i put into that ’unique’ category. because the contribution could be childhood friend, college friend, associate’s relative, member of committe that has to do with field/interests, etc…..many reasons…..so, that was one i hadn’t thought of. thanks. i looked again, only ’out of state’ contribution she made was don stenberg, nebraska, and presidential.
looked at it again through your lens,
she is the only one so far that has kept it in that strict of a category. and i’ve pulled up hundreds. how odd.
thanks, i outta know by now if something ’blows my gourd’ that i’m missing something.
thanks.
I think the question for Kennedy, in the high school vernacular, is whether the cool kids like him, or just like him for his vote. What I wonder about is how often he feels like he has to ask himself that question.
Keep at it please. It’s important as the recent NYT article Supreme Court, Inc. shows folks are waking up to what the real agenda of this court is and it has little to do with the whingers of the evangelical tools they’ve used to almost take it over.
That’s great to hear, and I would expect a group of folks as well-informed as you guys to be discussing it!
I think Jan’s point above on Alito’s quiet, scholarly personality meshing well with Kennedy’s was a good one, too. It’s really fascinating looking at the Court through that personal-level lens, I have to say…
Unless I missed it, Jan, you did not comment on the intelligence (or other qualities) of Clarence Thomas. Anything impress you about him?
She does address that quite a bit in the book — the fact that according to folks who know Thomas (which, as sourcing you can take with a grain of salt as we always do with sources with an agenda *g*) who say that he was more influential on Scalia than the other way around in some respects. That he’s the more conservative, and vocal, and not the protege that he’s been portrayed to be as a “Scalia tag-along.”
You guys are all referring, I’m sure, to the NYT magazine piece by the terrific Jeff Rosen, a professor at GW who is a frequent contributor to the NYT and the New Republic. Jeff is a good friend (his book on some of the personalities on the Court was published at the same time mine was, so we did lots of events together) and one smart guy. In the piece, he looks at the number of pro-business decisions from the new Roberts Court-a striking phenomenom, especially since some of the “liberals” have joined with conservatives on those decisions.
I wonder how many questions Thomas has asked this session, 5 or 6? ;-)
If the scheduling gods line up properly for next week’s First Monday, we may have an exceptional guest to discuss First and Fourth Amendment issues, along with a broader chat about civil liberties for First Monday. I’ll hopefully have news on that soon for everyone.
Because the media is owned by the Right, and doesn’t want the Court to be an issue, so it does not produce or air stories about the Court.
One-sided control of the media is a tremendous problem. All debates are framed in Right-wing terms, and stories of faux umbrage (such as Obama’s pastor) are exaggerated beyond all reason in order to smokescreen real issues – such as Supreme Court appointments.
Vocal? Surely you jest, Christy!
Can I quote one more thing from Jan’s post?
Thanks, Jan.
I think Albatross is right. What are your thoughts Jan?
There are a lot of men who fall somewhere between Joe6pack and Justice Thomas with regards to intellect, social graces and human empathy who still Don’t Understand.
A good example of that would be to think of how many times you have seen anything about what the SC is doing in the last year.
The Second Ammendment case immediately comes to mind, other than that, not so much.
Not on the bench — in conference. The real arguments occur behind the scenes. Scalia telegraphs a lot of what he’s thinking with his verbal sparring from the bench — but Thomas’ holds that close to the vest for conference arguments, according to what people close to him are saying.
I’m surprised anyone would have expected Roberts to become less conservative once he had a lifetime appointment as Chief Justice.
The very savvy people vetting these candidates had a very good handle on him, based on seeing him and his work over two decades; they didn’t just interview him over several weeks and review a battery of psych tests and a security clearance profile. Roberts and other legal high fliers are on the neocons’ nomenklatura; they knew him and groomed him.
It’s an overstatement, but the Dems seem to look at candidates only once it’s clear that an opening will need to be filled.
jan at 77-”Why isn’t the Court more of an issue in the presidential campaign? I’ve tried to figure this out for years. It never is. Even in 04–when we knew the next President would get at least one nomination”
i think it is because it hadn’t occurred to people.
but is more and more becoming a weighing point.
it is here, because people keep bringing it up, reminding that it is what this election is about. i’m one of them.
it has now become a point of conversation on the local ’viewpoint’ radio call-in show here…….
just today, expressed by people who called in, to tell people who were going to vote mccain if their candidate lost the primary, that the supreme court is what it’s all about.
it has spread pretty fast around here, and has latched on to their psyche,
se ohio.
I’m sure Jan, as an ABC News analyst, would love help getting more air time for more Supreme Court coverage. *g*
So Jan’s not the only one with secrets and sources here today?
*g*
Hmmmmm . . . exceptional? first and fourth amendments? civil liberties? Could it be Justice Ginsburg?
I knew there was question I meant to answer: What surprised me?
Clarence Thomas.
I was stunned to see in the papers of Harry Blackmun (which are stored in the Library of Congress) that Thomas was a bold and independent conservative from his first WEEK on the Court. He was portrayed for so long as blindly following Scalia–when in fact, he took these independent positions alone, and Scalia would later change his vote and join him. Blackmun took very detailed notes in the private conferences, so you can see how the justices initially voted, then trace that to see how they ended up when the opinions were released. I would literally find my heart racing when I’d see yet another case where Thomas would vote one way in conference…and then Scalia would join his side a few weeks or month later.
As we all know by now, Thomas is the most conservative member of the Court. He is willing to take a fresh look at pretty much any case–and overrule almost any precedent. But he was like that from Week One, independent of Scalia.
What also surprised me was the dynamic that set up. The Court is a group of nine independent individuals, but they define themselves very much in relation to one another. Justice White used to always say “a new justice makes a new Court,” because it would cause the others to rethink their positions and form new alliances.
Thomas’s arrival–and those strong conservative views–caused O’Connor to move to the left, where she would remain for the duration of the Rehnquist Court. In her private memos and letters, you can just see her practically bristle at the views Thomas is expressing.
Jan, I’d watched Thomas and Kennedy testify during the budget committee hearing and one of the Rep’s asked them their thoughts on televising Oral Arguments, both were adamantly against, is there still a chance they might be televised? It would be a great teaching tool and/or learning experience!
Jan — just a note of thanks for all the work that had to have gone into this book. It really was a great read from start to finish, with lots of surprising personal bits that must have been incredibly exciting nuggets to piece together for you in the reporting.
We really appreciate you being here today to discuss it, too — love the anecdote about finding the background on Thomas in the Blackmun notes!
Instant replay would stall any progress.
This is where the adjective “conservative” gets very bizarre. A conservative who is willing to overrule almost any precedent is a odd description, and conversations around the Supreme Court are about the only place you hear a phrase like that.
I was replying to Jan @ 113.
Have you seen the Oyez website? They have a number of audio recordings available from arguments. I don’t see the justices allowing television — they’d see it as too much of an opportunity for attorneys to preen before the cameras (see, Simpson, O.J.). But listening to the audio of the cases they do have available can be fascinating.
Do you have any insight as to how the other members of the Supreme Court reacted to the rather vitriolic book recently authored by Justice Thomas?
Which leads to another question for Jan:
Other than your own fine blog, what websites do you value for their perspectives on the Supreme Court?
I agree with you. It would be great for the public to see the Court’s public sessions on television–like Congress on C-Span–especially since it’s almost impossible for people to see an argument. The court is only on the bench 10 days or so a month–and not at all in the summer. And how many people can get to DC on those days, then stand in line and get in?
But I see no way we’ll get cameras. Souter, of course, famously said would go into Court when his dead body was going out. And Roberts said recently that he’d hate to do anything to hasten Justice Souter’s demise….I think they like their anonymity, and they aren’t going to change that. They also have started releasing audio during big arguments, so you can HEAR them. I think that’s going to be the sword that slays video.
I just did a phone survey. One of the question was: would being endorsed by the republic party make me more or less likely to vote for the candidate. My response was that even if a gun were held to my head I would NEVER vote for a repuke, ever.
Interestingly, Kennedy mentioned the circus like environment that occurred with the Anna Nicole Smith case as that same sort of scenario…
Wrong thread. Sorry!
I’d have to put SCOTUSblog on that list, along with Balkinization and Volkh Conspiracy for the other side of things on analysis. Would love to know what other ones folks might be reading on the legal end of things…
I heard an interesting article this past week on NPR on the anniversary of the first NPR coverage of a Senate hearing, way before CSPAN, and it was an interesting discussion of how things have changed since cameras have showed the public what’s going on.
whispering….(christy at 66, and my 92, christy, just occurred to me, was brought up around business people, lawyers, prosecutors, etc., people whose bread and butter depends on ’getting along’ and they didn’t donate to the republican rulers in our county/state….that’s why your answer didn’t occur to me, i already pulled them up on newsmeat.com by zip code, and the dems, they didn’t donate any money to repubs, even though they were and still are in power there. boehner country…their money goes to the arts, community foundations, etc., have discussed this over the years with many, that you can tell who is associated with whom in ’h’ by what ’sponsored by’ brochure they are listed in……they aren’t listed as a repub donator anywhere……..so, am going to have to keep that thought of yours as a yes/no/maybe. : ))
Those are the three in my “SCOTUS sites” bookmark file.
Jan thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon.
Everyone – if you haven’t ordered the book yet, it is a must read.
Thanks you again.
Thanks very much–and thank all of you who referred to that O’Connor post, “Choice.” I’ve been thinking about exploring that bit more, so if you all have any thoughts you’d like to share, please do so on my blog, Legalities. It would be great to continue this conversation.
As for other legal blogs, there are quite a few I read every day, but I always start with these two:
How Appealing
Scotusblog
Thanks again. As I said, it was an incredible forum, and I cannot believe how fast these past two hours flew by….
Thanks again to all of you for your time and your interest.
JCG
This has been absolutely fascinating, and may I add, delightful.
Thank you so much, Jan
and thanks too to Christy and Bev.
Mahalo, Jan for being here at the Lake, it has been a fascinating discussion! I’ve always enjoyed your appearances on ABC and the NewsHour! Thank you very much!
jan, or anyone who would know-
have any of the justices ever stated why they wanted to be on the court?
why they said yes?
a lot to consider in saying yes.
Seconded.
now that our guest is gone
i have held back from saying, but am now going to say, if i could wave my magic wand and get rid of a phrase from the english language, it would be–
joe six pack
i think it is the white equivalent of the ’n’ word and the sexist ’c’ word.
i wish it would go away.