Here are two quotes -- one by a Democratic operative, and one by a right-wing Christianist leader. Can you tell who's who?
"Sen. Obama was recently named the most liberal U.S. Senator, based on the annual voting analysis by the non-partisan and highly respected National Journal."
And,
“Independent and Republican support is diminishing as they find out he’s the most liberal Democratic senator.”
The quotes are from Mark Penn (the second) and James Dobson (the first). That's right, Mark Penn is using James Dobson's messaging to attack another Democrat.
Look, taking down Obama for the purpose of winning the primary is perfectly fine. But taking down Obama using right-wing frames that do long-term damage Democratic brand is absolutely not. And for a Democratic presidential campaign to use "most liberal" as an epithet is completely unacceptable.
When was the last time you heard a Republican accuse another of being "too conservative"? For that matter, when was the last time you heard a Democratic candidate use that as an attack on a Republican? Right, never. There's a reason for that, and it's not an accident. It's the result of years and years of a disciplined and sustained branding effort by the GOP.
I'm sick and tired of this DLC, attack-your-left-flank-first, bullshit. After 8 years of the most radical administration in history, is this really helpful to the party? That the big scary leftwing liberals are the problem?
None of this even addresses the merits of Penn's and Dobson's claim -- for that, see Carpetbagger. But this is the kind of crap we have to stamp out as a party, once and for all.
We simply cannot tolerate this. Enough.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
so
Zed! and HRC is pissing on our brand like a Goldwater Girl!
Did you see the Bernstein piece on CNN’s site?
That would be almost
I give you Presidunce John McBu’ush.
It seems like we’re pissing all over ourselves. I can’t wait for this sh*t to end, and for Penn to be gone.
oy, can this primary end already without the party being torn asunder?
Excellent post Blue Texan. We should collectively be against McCain, not against those in our own party.
No more surrogates talking shit and no more folks making shit up. State your case as to why you should be prez and let folks decide
UH—OH the Military is starting to go after Hillary, and I don’t blame them.
http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.....t-acc.html
These numbers are wrong When did Obama ever appeal to the 30%ers?
Yep. We have gone through things like this before and lived. It’s certainly not pretty but eventually the job gets done.
Rubin is on my teevee and I refuse to turn the volume up to see what he is spinning. Oh, the Tuzla snipper business. Definitely not turning up the volume now.
O/T Anyone know what time UCLA is playing today?
{{{Blue Texan}}}
Did you hear us talking about you a couple of threads back and the appearance of your letter on Washington Journal today with the Clark Holt NYT interview? Your letter really looked good:))
It drives me crazy that Republicans put party before everything, while Democrats cut off their nose to spite their face. Just once do what is necessary to put a Democrat in the White House.
We may have gone thorugh someting similar before but this has left a really bad taste in my mouth with regards to politics and I can imagie that it has turned quite a few people off
What independents are Penn talking about the prowar, prohealthcare crowd or the Bunch who thinks that Bush is doing a great job on the economy, but they want to pay more taxes to buy the stuff our solders need?
We have gone through things like this before and lived.
I’ve read comments from folks who say if HRC is the nominee they won’t vote. If that really happens we end up with crazy train. Looks more and more like that won’t happen but there has to be people on the other side of that equation. The infighting is NOT good.
Question:
What is the difference between a misstatement and a lie?
I wouldn’t exactly call that “the military”. I agree with the article and I’m a vet but I ain’t the military.
the beholder
I misspoke, you lied.
If she stopped her bullshit this very second I wouldn’t vote for her.
Good Afternoon Blue Tex
props on your CSPAN appearance !
oh, and this pic was all over Right Wankistan this morning
and then there’s this - HRC Camp: Obama has a Jewish problem
I know this isn’t about the poo, but dear gaia, when has the Obama camp tried to scare anyone ?
I will say this as an Obama supporter, that I will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee (though I may not like it) because the bigger picture (SCOTUS) will have a much wider, longer and broader effect on me/others than my offended sensibilities
They don’t play today. The WKU game is scheduled for tomorrow evening @ 9:40 EDT.
You are right, I should have said, some in the military…
as in the pilot who flew the plane into bosnia…
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....595/484508
No, it’s not good at all but it isn’t fatal. I remember campaigns that were very ugly but the party survived and went on. Don’t want to sound like a Pollyanna but we will get through this and maybe be better for it. The Dems have been out of power for so long and just maybe we needed to do cleaning up. With the progressives fighting the way we are, some Dems in Congress may get the message that we will stand up for our country.
thanks Marion and Raven–
Truly, I have been trying to wrap my mind around that those terms or rather use of terms. I talked with my dad this morning and he asked me the same question.
Did you read the comments? People are not buying it.
We lived, but unfortunately with Nixon, Reagan, and George Bush.
Yes, we have gone through this before, and just like in the past the Old Party Estabishment will achieve their goal. Break the liberal arm of the party. Being a Liberal in the Democrat party is a mortal sin. They see us winning again and WILL shoot us down again. Just like they did in Chicago… If we, as liberals, do not win this one then we will have to start our own party!!!
BT - Did you hear yourself get mentioned on Washington Journal this morning in the interview with the NYT editor? They even flashed the FDL site on there…
Like I said, the sentiment is right on. I’m sick of phonies, right wing left wing or nay other damn wing.
Why does the Press let Penn and Dobson spin like this without FACTS. Obama and Hilary are to the right of 70% of the American people on ending the war now!
They are to the Right of the majority on healthcare!
Just how does Penn and Dobson decide who is the most Liberal Senator and what are their qualifications to judge?
On the Question of Just Who is the Most Liberal Senator throughout the Land you would think that the press would ask US to vote on it.
After all Penn and Dobson only know about bashing Liberals.
I read that this morning. Is that where her campaign is sending around an article written some right wing magazine?
thanks
Did you hear them floating a possible Gore ticket around this morning….on CNN…
Er…no. Linky?
There is this kind of odd story up at the NYT about how fewer media outlets can afford to be “on the bus” following the candidates on a daily basis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03.....26bus.html
The odd part for me is that it is written from the point of view that such coverage is meaningful and conducted by serious, thoughtful reporters.
You see the problem. If this were true, why is it the White House press corps has produced nothing but crap reporting for the last 7 years, and probably a lot longer, and why is it that one of the few White House reporters with even a modicum of integrity Helen Thomas probably hasn’t been near a bus in decades?
Asking Penn and Dobson to decide who is the most Liberal Senator in America is like asking a Vegean where a good steak joint is:). I now am seriously wondering just how dumb the press must be to go with this story.
EPU’d from previous thread (which I normally never do)
in response to AZ Matt @ 123
yeah - probably because I’m just tired.
I’m tired - before they ever take control, of the Democratic government to come.
I’m tired of hating my government.
I’m tired of only being able to vote “against” someone.
I’m tired of seeing my Constitution pissed on.
I’m tired of seeing kids come back from Iraq, for no goddamned reason whatsoever, in a bag, or permanently fucked-up, with no help in sight.
I’m tired of the fact that Big Media is owned by the same people who make these fucked-up policies, and who “report” accordingly.
I’m tired of the fact that New Orleans has been studiously, perhaps even gleefully, ignored.
I am, in short, tired of hating myself and my country.
BT: You can probably watch the archive of the show on C-SPAN.
Go Bruins.
“Obama Won’t Get Clinton’s Voters“
I think you CAN be against members of your own party — that’s the point of a primary. But I don’t think you should attack them using the other guys’ playbook. That’s just freaking idiotic.
I’ve tried to stay out of the candidates’ business as they go to other primaries and let my fellow citizens have their opportunity to vote just as I did in Nevada. But nnnoooooo! It has to get really ugly and mean-spirited.
Until recently I refused to play favorites and give my support to one of the candidates but I just can’t let my party’s selection of a candidate be driven by desperate measures. I just can’t. So, I’m taking a position.
The longer the primaries have gone on the more the players self-reveal. I must cast my vote in favor of Obama. It makes me angry to be put in this position. It isn’t any one thing; it’s the accumulation of behavior, statements, lack of statements, and, action out of desperation.
I will not speak ill of Hillary (I’ll save that for the Repugs) but I will question her choices as well as Obama’s.
And yes, misspeak is a lie. It is worse than a lie because it demonstrates the person has no regret other than getting caught. It’s untrustworthy behavior.
yep
OT: The media is not reporting that an Embassy employee, a financial analyst, has died of wounds from the attacks on the Green Zone….
And yes, misspeak is a lie. It is worse than a lie because it demonstrates the person has no regret other than getting caught.
______
See the really cool book “On Bullshit“
It’s rather like a game my mother and I used to play when I was a kid:
I have a subtle aura of mystery about me, you use too much perfume, she stinks. I glow, you perspire, he sweats. You get the idea…
raven at 3
what was the bernstein article/thing about? i can’t access it.
he HATES clinton, so, what did he poke her with?
not loading, tried for 10 minutes on separate screen, tubes reaaaaaaaly slow today on dial-up
You see the problem. If this were true, why is it the White House press corps has produced nothing but crap reporting for the last 7 years, and probably a lot longer, and why is it that one of the few White House reporters with even a modicum of integrity Helen Thomas probably hasn’t been near a bus in decades?
I think that reporting belongs to two schools Access which Judy Miller and Robert Novak do which requires inside sources who tell you what to write.
And Investigative reporting which Greg Palast does.
The White House press corps outside of Helen Thomas belongs to the first school of reporting, the Coctail Weiner Eaters.
Go Hilltoppers! Go Big Red! *waving red towel for all to see*
Mrs. Clinton’s supporters are getting extremely desperate. You could see the mood swing after Richardson came out for Obama. I think the pressure is coming from the A*P*C influence, which is very heavy among her major financial supporters. They have the most to lose, and given their commitments to a country other than the United States, will pull out all the stops. McCain might win, but he is not a good bet. Hillary is a safe candidate. We haven’t begun to see the worst of this campaign.
Mrs. Clinton is going to have to take a deep breath at some point, and think through what she is doing to her party and her country.
which will no doubt be ultimately found to have been self-inflicted.
I am, in short, tired of hating myself
Go easy on that bro.
So very true! And each time our country sank lower and lower at the expense of our Constitution and democracy. I’m ready to move the other direction - upward (that doesn’t mean prices at the gas pump and grocery store).
And this has what to do with snowbirds?
Hillary Clinton has many admirable qualities, but candor and openness and transparency and a commitment to well-established fact have not been notable among them. The indisputable elements of her Bosnian adventure affirm (again) the reluctant conclusion I reached in the final chapter of A Woman In Charge, my biography of her published last June:
“Since her Arkansas years [I wrote], Hillary Rodham Clinton has always had a difficult relationship with the truth… [J]udged against the facts, she has often chosen to obfuscate, omit, and avoid. It is an understatement by now that she has been known to apprehend truths about herself and the events of her life that others do not exactly share. ” [italics added]
As I noted:
“Almost always, something holds her back from telling the whole story, as if she doesn’t trust the reader, listener, friend, interviewer, constituent—or perhaps herself—to understand the true significance of events…”
The Bosnian episode is a watershed event, because it indelibly brings to mind so many examples of this tendency– from the White House years and, worse, from Hillary Clinton’s take-no-prisoners presidential campaign. Her record as a public person is replete with “misstatements” and elisions and retracted and redacted and revoked assertions…
I would take Nixon over Bush in a heartbeat. Less than a heartbeat.
{{{Bless Helen Thomas}}}
You know she must have days she’s just not up to the White House nonsense but there she is, sticking it to them. I want to sit next to Helen!
What’s wrong with being a Liberal?
Sounds like a compliment to me.
#41: Asking Penn and Dobson to decide who is the most Liberal Senator in America is like asking a Vegean where a good steak joint is:). I now am seriously wondering just how
dumbculpable the press must be to go with this story.Fixed.
~ Seasoned blue collar liberal white woman for Obama ‘08
Thank you for articulating my thought. As for the comment that HRC voters will not vote for Obama. I can’t speak for anyone else but I voted for HRC in the California primary and I damn sure will vote for Obama in the general.
i have that book (really more of a hard cover bound essay) - very interesting thesis, iirc, that bullshit is more damaging to society than a lie… because at least the liar acknowledges what is real and that what they are saying is not.
A-friggin’-men, BT.
I couldn’t agree with this comparison and its analysis more. As Clinton continues her slide to the right I am beginning to wonder if she’s in competition with Lieberman to be McCain’s VP. In light of this shift, it is time for the emotional pull to a woman candidate to be reconsidered by some. This rightward shift would continue in the fantasy-contest with McCain and as president as well.
Do some of her supporters feel that this is just an act, that she’s actually the liberal in conservatives clothing just as part of some game, and that once she wins (another fantasy) that she will shed the fake exterior? I am more opposed to her with every tactical shift. If I wanted to vote for a Republican (which I never have or will) I would vote for McCain. As it is, if she pulls off this magic trick I will leave my presidential ballot blank.
Especially since Nixon’s dead so he can’t cause as much damage.
But yeah, with a viable Democratic controlled Congress to oppose him, I think I would take Nixon over Bush.
But not sure Nixon would have been any better than Bush if his first six years in office he’d had a Republican controlled Congress to go along with everything he wanted.
Re BobbyG’s #45:
“Obama Won’t Get Clinton’s Voters“
Who’s to say he would need them?
thanks Raven.
Just tired, is all.
Appreciate it.
Why is that?
Obama got this Clinton voter/supporter. I have been disappointed in her campaign for a while, and now I am disappointed in her. Lying is something I expect of republicans.
was so gobsmacked by the Scaife teaparty, it only just now dawned on me -
she has written off the once prized African American vote, surely that’s dawned on the superdelegates she’s hectoring - electable my ass
Ding.
A*P*C hostility to Obama’s foreign policy team, and mistrust on the part of many Jewish Democrats of a candidate insufficiently deferential to Israel are both fair. It’s a free country, after all. But this is definitely Clinton’s last card to play. That’s what made me so fearful and mistrustful of what seemed to be these mysterious superdelegates. When they come out for Obama its going to lessen my awe of the Lobby.
The main difference between the two candidates was always the war, and a future war with Iran.
Interesting, they just talked about Clinton’s religious ties, specifically to ‘the Family’. We’ll have to see how that plays out
Fuck Penn. Seriously.
And while we’re at it, fuck the Clintons as well. This isn’t just Penn going off on another tangent, this is a pattern of behavior which the Clintons have tacitly approved.
I’m tired of this shit. Hillary knows she can’t win without knee-capping Obama, and she’s more than willing to do it.
Blue Texan:
I believe you’re the first FDL poster to say “Enough”.
I agree. When Dodd and Kucinich were pushed out I thought I’d have to go with Edwards. When Edwards was pushed out I took the sidelines.
I looked at the pros and cons of both candidates. I didn’t want to get into the fray.
And then a woman I respect begins using my core beliefs as a snide smear in her messaging.
Hillary needs to be called out on this. I’m sick of being insulted. As far as I’m concerned she just threw down the gauntlet!!!
Go Obama .
Why did she tell that particular Bosnia lie? It’s so easy to prove it’s a lie and she just stepped right in it. Don’t get it at all.
shorter (per my dad): she pays fast and loose with the truth
Shorter (mr wobbs): she has veracity issues
I think what he would take is Nixon plus a Democratic Congress over Bush.
It’s the Tuzla Bamboozla.
She was “sleep deprived” from taking 3:00 a.m. pillow talk with McCain and Lieberman.
First she insulted those of us in the small states…don’t matter, don’t count.
Then she insulted those who live in small countries…too poor, too dangerous for the prez? Send the “first” lady.
Who’s next? Small planet?
Yeah, what was up with meeting with satan, himself? I am completely befuddled by that one
When you out and out say, on multiple occasions, that the other party’s candidate is better qualified for the office than your primary opponenet, isn’t that more than just idiotic?
On today’s scale, warped by the rightward lurch of the GOP, Nixon is way left of Obama on lots of stuff. He expanded LBJ’s welfare progs., he established the EPA, etc. And he was a realist. The neocons hated the realism of Nixon and Kissinger. Given the choice between Bush and Nixon, it’s not even close.
Desperation. She already knows that everything she says and does will be parsed to death. She has crossed the line a while back unfortunately. The party elders need to ask her to step aside.
oh, yowzah! “Tuzla Bamboozla”…
What else would you expect from Commando Clinton?
In her Balkans Sniper story she goes beyond leaving things out, ignoring stuff etc. She graduates to invention whole cloth of stories that didn’t happen I wonder if she is having a Reagan Liberating a Concentration Camp sign of some form of old age mental trouble.
Cause this is new. This is worse than any minor cover ups before that I am aware of.
McCain with his Sunni, Shia confusion on the other hand I hope is slipping mentally. Because I worry that his slips might otherwise be Freudian and hints of the future.
HRC is out for just one thing, and one think only: to complete whatever it was she was “in charge” of while her Hubby was getting his work done. What was she in charge of?
Well, it’s Wednesday, let’s ask her. I’m sure it involved feeding Asian orphans, doing liver transplants and curing AIDS (and that before lunch, and a photo op with the Pope O’Rome), her afternoon will be taken up with a meeting on ending global warming, where she will singlehandedly propose a design for a nuclear-powered car that runs on discarded radium watch dials followed by a gala fund raiser for the HRC Foundation for Truth, Justice and the American Way.
Then I woke up.
And four times. She’s a brilliant woman, why would she try this? I do not understand how she could behave so stupidly.
…. not that the lying doesn’t bother me, seriously - how many presidential candidates don’t? and how many presidents have we had that don’t?
i’d love to see a very high standard of honesty demanded from all our politicians. the deceit that permeates our political discourse is way above the toxic level, imo.
Apparently he wasn’t your commander in chief. I have a long memory.
Yes, but even that’s not as bad. I agree it’s totally out of bounds, and I blogged about it a couple of times. But this is still worse because it has broader ramifications.
So when are Reid and Dean going to speak with Hillary? After Pennsylvania?
Oh. My. Gawd.
Expect an attack by RieszFischer.
On the other hand - it’ll be pretty weak tea - I’m sure you can handle it without breaking a sweat. otoh, it’s probably good, as opposed to what I did, to refrain from picking on one who is barely able to be a one-track mind….
It’s true, Raven — I was a Nixon baby. But can you imagine Obama expanding welfare? I can’t.
I said it earlier today - but how is that any different from McCain embracing Chimpigula after that horrible smear on his adopted daughter ?!?!?
It’s not the lying that bothers me. It’s the underlying reason she has to so desperately improvise in padding her resume: she insists on running on “experience”, which can be translated in our current depraved discourse as “reliable warmongering”.
I often use the term self-reveal. Over time, we all do just that. Hillary’s “misspeak” was a revelation of herself that none of us could ever have done on her as well. It’s as John Adams says, “Facts don’t lie”. They persist.
One of my heroines is Agnes Smedley. I read and re-read Daughter of Earth. I love her for her truthtelling and courage to admit her wrongs. She takes responsibility for her own behavior even when unflattering.
IMO… why wait? The sooner we get all this energy pointed at McInsane the better.
In the words of Dear Leader, “bring it on”. ;)
I can’t even engage in that conversation. It’s the same as when people start talking about all the great shit LBJ did. I am sort of a one issue guy and you know what that is.
Tin Soldiers and Nixon comin,
we’re finally on our own.
Yes, if Obama had been a Senator during Nixon’s administration.
It was a different country. Apples and oranges.
LOL…
Nixxon was a travesty. What does it say about HRC that she’s so willing to destroy her own party in an effort to achieve personal power and whatever else it is she has in mind.
Remember, she’s willing to sit down with Scaife and drink with Murdoch. Appear on Olbermann for some Q&Q? Not So Much.
Isn’t it strange that when Obama left the stage to go on vacation and Clinton had the spotlight all to herself, she only managed to shift right and damage her credibility even further? Although I know that Obama needed some rest and time with his family, this almost seems like a tactical move to leave her hanging out to dry in the news cycle. Instead of using this to her advantage, she started blasting in all directions and shot herself in both feet.
It isn’t any different.