separation of sturch n’ chate!

pastors are wacky.

coffee is ready - ‘morning, Scarecrow…

A “safe” pastor? Silly me, I always thought it was part of the job of the pastor to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Shows how much I’ve learned after all that church-going…

Or starch and shirt

Dem candidates felt they had to reject a pastor

That’s not an accurate description of what Obama did, who rejected some political statements from the Pastor that are valid to criticize. He did not reject the man.

Clinton herself used this issue, when talking to Richard Mellon Scaife! It’s not just Clinton surrogates.

To paraphrase a recent blog, your candidates suck, and their pastors are worse.

Good morning, everyone.

This is so silly, arguing about who spouts better superstions or who you prefer to watch get all wound up and spew irrationalities. I so don’t get it.

So exactly who did Hillary pick to be her pastor? See here.

Good morning, Scarecrow. Great post and thanks for sayin it. Somebody needed to.

“My religion and my pastor is better than yours! Nanny goats, nanny goats, nahhhhhhh!”.

Tired of it.

Being a long lapsed Catholic, Mrs. Clinton’s remarks simply did not register with me.

Roman Catholics don’t get to choose their pastor. Posts are assigned by Diocesan fiat.

A pecularly modern phenomenon.

Church as Accessory.

One for each mood, each day of the week.

Yeesh.

And I suspect if Dick Cheney were told he had pursued policies that a majority thought were an abomination before God, he’d respond, “so?”

that’d be a good bet, you could even lay odds at 10 to one and be safe

I’m so dismayed by the personal charges and name calling of campaign surrogates that I actually turned off MSNBC right in the middle of something Lanny Davis was saying. Not to pick on Lanny, mind you; he just happened to be the surrogate assigned to push the holier than thou religious issue.

It could easily have been some General talking nonsense about McCarthyism, or James Carville being ridiculous comparing Richardson to Judas, for heaven’s sake. (James: it’s the Republicans, stupid!) But put aside the political implications for a moment. These people are hurting the country, and they need to stop.

Somehow it always seems to be Hillary’s campaign staff who are on the offensive. By now I know Wolfson, Davis, Penn, Ickes, and Carville by sight from having seen them multiple times on TV doing some rather hard hitting. Of Obama’s staff, I would only recognize Axelrod, and he has never been on a serious offensive when I’ve seen him.

Perhaps it’s simply that Hillary’s team is in a desperate spot and having to be extremely aggressive to have any chance at all. She certainly can’t sit back and let Obama run out the clock. She probably feels that as long as there is a 5% chance she owes it to her contributors and supporters to fight hard. But, IMHO, we’ve reached the point where the DNC leadership should step in in a way that Hillary can retain credibility with her supporters and this mess can be brought to a speedy conclusion.

We should have disbanded the Evangelical cult when we had the chance. Bah hahahahahahaha! *waiting for the tomatoes to be thrown*

See revisions. The point is not so much what each said but why they felt politically compelled to say it.

Morning folks.

Thanks for including the story on the Pope baptizing the former Muslim, Scarecrow. I too was very offended by this story and thought it was the worst possible form of propaganda.

Unfortunately, if Iraq violence explodes in the way it appears to be headed, we may look back on the “preacher wars” as a more innocent time.

I’m no cheerleader for clinton and I surely don’t agree with her campaign tactics but I really have to agree with the point

I would not attend nor allow my children attend a temple where the clergy were homulating points of view I do not want my family to consider

if my clergy even tried to sermon that evolution did not exist, that would be the last sermon we heard, if he tried to sermon other religions are evil, that would be the last sermon we heard, and forgive me those christians who’s pastor might have said the following, but if my clergy ever tried to sermon that people of other faiths would not be found in heaven, that would be the last sermon I heard

so I agree with clinton’s point though I don’t agree with the tactic

Excuse me?

cawCAW Scarecrow!
another excellent post.
Hard to argue with someone who makes so much sense all the time.

But what can we do about it, as a group?

That’s what I always thought my job was.

I agree with your thesis and don’t wish to distract from the point. However, in this instance, Hillary wasn’t compelled to say anything, and didn’t for some time. She elected to say something when the issue began to fade.

I’m a little surprised the Pope story did draw a reaction — though it may have and we don’t see it in the US media. Yesterday, the King of Saudi Arabia called for dialogue among the great religions. Saudi Arabia isn’t exactly the paragon of religious tolerance, but I thought it was an interesting follow up.

You should make me your pastor. I’ll post the address where you can send your donations.

What can we do? I personally favor invading the tv studies and throwing rotten tomatoes. Notice I didn’t say throw them AT anyone; that would be bad.

To paraphrase a recent blog, your candidates suck, and their pastors are worse.

Good morning, everyone.

I was going to say that.

I was off line when the Wright flap first erupted, so didn’t weigh in on it then, but this is really getting ridiculous.

but what does he mean “the great religions”, is he talking populace?

is Mormonism a great rligion? …judeaism?…paganism?…satonism?…most religions aren’t religions at all, they are cultures with sub religions with completely different beliefs and tradition

sorry RevDeb, Peterr… not ALL pastors are wacky, just the ones hooked up with the pols…

;-)

But what can we do about it, as a group?

My efforts on this front will include an attempt to get back to the concept that a person’s religion (or lack thereof) is a private matter and to concentrate on activities that will help elect a Democratic President and a more Democratic Congress.

by the current metric, this Pastor is by no means safe - funny that

It is for the media, this pastor thing. They get to keep it trivial and salacious for the masses and advertisers.
Hillary thinks she can win this way.
It is time to get on with the business of defeating McCain.

Perhaps we should do a poll of whether people would have walked out of Obama’s church. It’s a very personal preference, and being a parent can influence the decision.

My son visits FDL all the time, and this is sometimes far more radical than Rev. Wright. He didn’t know who Scarecrow was until he saw the pic of RevDeb and the Mass. gang.

I think politicians need to simply say that their religious beliefs are a private and not relevant to the job they are seeking and play no part in their decision making.

Of course, knowing how religion and attending or subscribing to a nice acceptable sane?? religion IS now a litmus test for pols it’s not gonna happen.

But I wish a few would just not take the test and say it has no place in politics. The approach they take is to allow the test to be given and try to skate past it. Obi got caught and McLiar panders and Hill seems to be doing a prayer club thing with the right to establish her bonda fides.

We need more push back against the religionists who want to have a voice in political matters. If they care about these things let them work within their congregations and keep their asses out of politics.

I all ready attend the Church of The Scarecrow every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday — but I haven’t been tithing, sorry.

This whole line of attack and finger pointing is making my stomach churn. I don’t expect my parishioners to agree with everything I say. Some of what I put out there is to make them think about how they view issues themselves. And context is everything. You can’t sound-bite religion which is the problems we’ve been having for the past 30 years in the public square and election circus.

perris- you wouldn’t attend a faith tradition that said those things anyway. That’s why you are here among progressive thinkers. And there actually are progressive religions where we do talk about evolution being a good thing and we don’t talk about having exclusive rights to a god or heaven. People can and do choose their religious communities to affirm what they already feel about how things work and what life is about. I don’t believe that any of the candidates—the ones we are stuck with now and the ones that dropped out—live out their faith on a daily basis. It is the role of the church/temple/mosque, etc. to challenge people to do so.

This tack by Hillary is so much bunk. I’d been planning to write in Edwards name in the PA primary but I’m getting so pissed at Hillary I may have to vote for BO. URGH.

I’m sorry; I was paraphrasing; dunno what words he used. I’ll try to find the link.

Good moanin’ to all. Pretty sure everyone thinks McChaney channels the great evil one from Hell…Nixon. And McBush leaves his lipstick kiss on his mirror..guess we know his advisor.

They’re not even that. What they are is a club that you belong to which with attempts to exclude others or seduce them to join. It requires that you indoctrinate your children into their myths so that when they are old enough to actually think, the don’t even bother to question the myths and accept them as articles of faith and everyone is suppose to have “faith”.

Perhaps we should do a poll of whether people would have walked out of Obama’s church. It’s a very personal preference, and being a parent can influence the decision.

I know as a fact I would have, possibly not that day in respect for the other members in attendance but I would have certainly had a word with the pastor immediately following and if an apology wasn’t forthright, I would have become a member of another

Out of curiosity, which specific comment(s) were that offensive?

I think that progressive churches are heading toward “science and rational” thought more and faith and myth less.

What probably happens is that most of the “fairly tales and allegories become “lessons” of behavior and that is not a bad thing. But many people don’t need those lessons - they arrive at them thru logic and not “faith”.

So getting people to think is always a good thing and to re examine their assumptions. This of course can lead to them leaving their churches, so not too much free thought is usually encouraged.

Dumping on the USA is read as unpatriotic ain’t it?

It’s the same kind of hate when someone protests the war and what the country is doing. They are branded unpatriotic.

Here’s the MSNBC link to Saudi King’s call for interfaith dialogue.

I have to admit, I have only heard the comments out of context and might have a differant opinion in context

K-Street Corporate Lobbyist James Matalin, calls Bill Richardson, a Judas. Of course, James and Cruella Deville’s pastor is Satan. (Any corporate lobbyist has sold their soul to the Devil.)

So there might be a bit of hypocrisy for Hillary to play the Religious Pandering Card. To repeat, THE ATTACKS ON REV. WRIGHT ARE RACIST. He might be provocative, but he is also intelligent, and articulate. And he was a Marine so he has earned the right to say most anything.

Note, Hillary is applying a religious test which is un-Constitutional.

I’ve been to Wright’s church, and what seems to be irritating everyone isn’t so much what he said, but the way he said it.

Wright didn’t speak in quiet measured tones, reflecting soberly on how US foreign policy has made us weaker instead of safer, like Jimmy Carter on a Sunday morning talk show. He got excited. He got irritated. He got loud. he got passionate.

Ask Howard Dean what happens when you get excited and loud and passionate. Yeeeeee haaahhhhh!!

A lot — not all, but a lot — of this is more about the fact that Wright is a black preacher, who preaches in the style of his community. It conjures up images of the Angry Black Man, which brings up the fear and racism that still beats in too many hearts in this nation.

To the extent that the Clinton campaign is bringing this up as a dogwhistle call using race, I am appalled.

Good morning, Scarecrow. Thank you for another excellent post.

I noticed the Pope delivered an Easter greeting calling for peace and reconciliation, and those sound like good ideas. But then he kinda rubbed the Muslims’ noses in holy water, making a public display of personally baptizing an ex-Muslim convert who’s known for his anti-Muslim remarks. Does he not see the connection?

In the modern western culture the changing of one’s religious views is not something that people are likely to become greatly exercised over.

In Islam however the denial of one’s faith is a far more serious matter. See Apostasy in Islam in Wikipedia. Throughout Islam, the punishment for a male apostate is death. I’m certainly not supporting this as an enlightened precept, but it makes it very odd indeed that the leader of the Catholic Church would act in the way you describe. Could it be ascribed to ignornance?

And he was a Marine so he has earned the right to say most anything.

what?

Anyone has a right to criticize. Your service in the marines does not give you this right.

Dumping on the USA is read as unpatriotic ain’t it?

As we’ve seen, it depends on who is doing it and what the context is. If it’s a right-wing preacher dumping on America for tolerating homosexuality and abortion, it’s not considered unpatriotic at all.

I curse this nation quite often for what I consider to be horrific behavior throughout the world, yet I consider myself patriotic.

So, I’m curious exactly which dumping on America by Rev. Wright was so over the line that Obama should have sought a different pastor.

Interesting comments on Wright. I’d point out that Wright is not running for president. Also, I wasn’t aware pastors/preachers are required to speak in quiet measured tones,, although Tim Russert may believe otherwise.

You should have heard Jesus when he threw the money changers out of the temple. He was pissed.

hey Peterman!

Paul Waldman

Peterr 43

Ask Howard Dean what happens when you get excited

You get swiftboated by the corporate media ‘just like Obama did’…very good examples of corporate media attacks.

This is so silly, arguing about who spouts better superstions or who you prefer to watch get all wound up and spew irrationalities. I so don’t get it.

And you shouldn’t as long as you are a sane rational person.

I think she is showing her true colors which are that she is power hungry (like so many) and will play hard ball to get what she is going for.

Admittedly you have to be pretty tough to play that game. But unless and until pols act with more ethics and stop with the strategies and tactics and present facts and keep to issues it will continue to be dirty pool.

The Rs figured that out and have vast strategies for creating consensus among the uniformed and lazy thinkers.

Hill is supposed to “cool” because she can beat “them” at their own game, or at least hold her own with the best (worst) of them.

No.

Benedict has a long history of giving offense to Islam. It’s not as if no one has pointed out to him exactly what he has said or done that is offensive before. When he was elected, those in the Roman Catholic hierarchy who move in ecumenical and interfaith circles were distressed, to say the least, because they had a good idea what would be coming from the way this pope would speak and act toward those of other religions (or no religion at all).

That being said, from what I have heard, the journalist in question has been under heavy protection for quite a while because of the anti-Islam things he has written — long before he converted to Christianity and was baptized last week. Like Salman Rushdie, he’s had death threats to deal with for quite some time.

Actually, for Tim and an inordinate number of comentators, they should speak in quiet, measured, tones of Latin.

What I heard Wright say seemed liked a good analysis.

http://www.tucc.org/pastor.htm

After three and a half years at Virginia Union, Pastor Wright left school and entered the United States Marine Corps. He transferred from the USMC into the United States Navy where he served as a cardiopulmonary technician.

Nice link. Thanks!

But then he kinda rubbed the Muslims’ noses in holy water, making a public display of personally baptizing an ex-Muslim convert who’s known for his anti-Muslim remarks. Does he not see the connection?

The guy is a nazi. He dresses in silly skirts, wears stupid looking hats and steals money from the poor. And you expect rational actions? Not going to happen.

Your POV is basically fascist. One believes in free speech or not, just like you trust your family, friends and the rest of the nation or not. When you filter out offending viewpoints, that’s censorship. Besides no one chooses a church or synagogue for the sermons. It’s more a social thing. Damn few of us leave our friends because the minister or rabbi said something offensive.

Hillary’s attack on Obama because he remained in Wright’s church is contemptible especially when she “misspeaks” on ducking sniper bullets in Bosnia.

As for Wright, I am white and I agree with much of what he said. God damn America is harsh, but we have not been sweetness and light in dealing with foreigners. As a proponent of democracy, we like elected officials who toe our line. We try to overthrow those who don’t. AIDs may well have been concocted in a DOD laboratory. I don’t believe the intention was to take out blacks, but our government has experimented on unsuspecting civilians before. It is not much of a stretch for some bureaucrat to test a new virus in some remote African village. The genie just got out of the bottle, another damaging mistake from the folks who brought us Vietnam.

The AIDs virus is far more complex than any previously known virus, making an evolutionary explanation unlikely. Then there are the periodic explanations for AIDs such as a British sailor who developed AIDs like symptoms in the 60’s before recombinant DNA and the French company who used monkeys to develop serums which were then injected into the population. AIDs is the first epidemic where someone seems compelled to try to prove it natural.

Do yourself and everyone a favor and vote for Obama

why does that give him special preference over the “ordinary” person as far as what he says in church?
You imply a special class of citizen for Marines.

There was a time when the Church burned heretics. In our colonies, we used to drown women we thought were witches, an early form of waterboarding gone too far, which even Proferrsor Yoo might not approve now, though he probably would have then. We are more civilized today; we pay $10,000 in reparations for “collateral damage” when we drop bombs on homes and kill innocent people. It’s okay, because those guys are the “extremists” but we’re fine.

And I’m supposed to get upset at Rev. Wright?

Are you saying that all epidemics in the past were not of natural origin, but man made? I think you want to reconsider that statement.

Angry old men who are ranting tend to exaggerate. It’s the grumpy-old-man syndrome. IMHO that was what was behind McCain’s recent gaffe, for example.

In the case of Rev Wright, the context of his “goddamn America” was actually “goddamn America … for killing innocent people.” That doesn’t seem so all that outrageous to me in the middle of a rant by a righteously angry old man speaking to his friends.

Wow, some interesting stuff in that article. How about this:

Muhammad al-Zulfa, a member of the Saudi Consultative Council said Abdullah’s conciliatory was “a message to all extremists: Stop using religion.”

That’s something that many of us here could have said. I never thought that I would see that coming from someone in an advisory council in Saudi Arabia, especially as an explanation/extension of statements by the King.

We live in interesting times, indeed. Am I actually asking the advisers to Clinton and Obama to listen to an adviser to the Saudi King? Yes.

“And he was a Marine African-American Christian Muslim Democrat Republican so he has earned the right to say most anything.”

See, it works with any label you drop in.

Hypocrisy is all around.

We are drowning in hypocrisy.

how in bloody hell is this any different than this ?

there will be poo

she’s Eve F’ing Harrington to the Party’s Margo Channing

oh look, campaign flair from HRC

The AIDs virus is far more complex than any previously known virus, making an evolutionary explanation unlikely.

could i have some links to back up this statement? thanks.

The phrase “righteous indignation” comes to mind.

The prophet Ezekiel called Jerusalem the sister city of Sodom, because the leaders in both cities led lives of wealth, pride and prosperous ease yet neglected the poor, the widow, the orphan, and those in need. I’m guessing that went over about as well with the leaders in Jerusalem as Wright’s “God damn America” line did at the White House.

Some of us have been doing that for decades or longer. And people are coming not leaving because they want to be part of something larger than themselves. They want to figure out their place in the universe. And they want their children to be brought up with strong values.

It is rarely mentioned that Wright was in the military for six years. Since his patriotism ( and by association Obama’s) is questioned, his military service to his country does show patriotism.

Everyday, I hear the slander from Liars on TeeVee, that Rev. Wright uses “hate speech” and is himself “racist”.

It is mainly “chickenhawks” those who have not been in the military, who spread this macaca. The worst offender is neo-con Pat Buchanan. He has tried to assassinate Wright’s reputation (as done to Howard Dean).

they believe only in America’s religion and renounces all others

Just the fact that you can write these words and no one has to question what you mean is chilling.

Great post.

I agree He isnt a Washington insider.

“It’s gonna be a rocky election!”

Uh, people can express their pov here; let’s not be suggesting anyone here is fascist.

I think the best thing to do (as individuals and as a group) is to insist on rational answers to policy questions. e.g., “Neither his nor your pastor is running for president, you are. How do you intend to address [insert issue]?”

I thought I read that one of the snippets of a sermon was a few days after 9-11

Oh, now I see the point you were making.

Your POV is basically fascist. One believes in free speech or not,

this is a rediculousm statement, a person believes in free speech as it applies to the government and public service, not as it applies to my listening to that speach

I have no idea where you learned the meaning of free speach but it is at best, tortured

It’s distressing that the candidates keep taking the litmus test every time the media asks them to, instead of telling the reporters to butt out and go read the Constitution. Someone needs to do that, and I suspect that moment is coming. This notion that everyone has to prove not only that they’re religious, but they believe only in America’s religion and renounces all others is dangerous in a democracy built on many peoples and many faiths and the necessity for tolerance.

Exhibit A: Romney’s “religion speech.”

Still lots of winking and nudging going on with regard to religion.

Something tells me my friend RevDeb can sort this out for herself.

Short version: Rev. Wright has earned the right to criticize America, without his patriotism being questioned. Hillary is being ridiculous.

In the case of Rev Wright, the context of his “goddamn America” was actually “goddamn America … for killing innocent people.”

this is of coure, in context, fine, however as scarecrow said, the tone and antics are as much speech as the words are

I can point my middle finger at you and say you are a saint when actually, what I have said is you’re a fuck tard

same thing here, the context has to be taken with the intonations and antics for the meaning to be realistic

The AIDs virus is far more complex than any previously known virus, making an evolutionary explanation unlikely. Then there are the periodic explanations for AIDs such as a British sailor who developed AIDs like symptoms in the 60’s before recombinant DNA and the French company who used monkeys to develop serums which were then injected into the population. AIDs is the first epidemic where someone seems compelled to try to prove it natural.

There’s a very interesting story related to this that I happen to know about.

Ten to twenty years ago, Los Alamos National Lab was tasked with doing the necessary research to detect, identify, and remediate biological warfare attacks. In keeping with their general ways of doing things, they developed very sophisticated computer-based epidemiological models. When they had them worked out, they tested those models against data from the Center for Disease Control to validate and calibrate those models.

It turned out that their models worked quite well for most all diseases, but it didn’t agree with conventional wisdom regarding AIDS. Rather, it indicated that AIDS had entered the human population in the 1920s somewhere in Africa. And, indeed when they checked health records from that time and place, they pretty well confirmed what those computer models were telling them.

I regret I don’t have electronic links. See NY Times May 26, 1986 p. A-26; August 3, 1986 page A-1 and March 3, 1987 page C-1. As I point out the complexity does not prove it recombinant DNA. The evidence is circumstantial

MccCain changed from the Episcopal Church to the Baptist Church. Shouldn’t he have to explain this flip flop?

From the videos I’ve seen, Rev. Wright’s tone an antics are very typical of every other black preacher I’ve heard. In the middle of a sermon, they could talk of going to the store for groceries and it would sound that way.

What else do you call someone who apparently favors censorship?

I still can’t get over how the world has gone “Through the Looking Glass” on this one. The United States, at its founding, chose as a central tenet the separation of church and state. Yet, this election appear to have a number of religious litmus tests that the press cannot get over.

By contrast, Saudi Arabia uses the Qur’an as its constitution, yet a member of the Consultative Council tells extremists to stop using religion to achieve their goals.

How did we get here?

hey guys. great post, as usual, scarecrow.

nice day to be off work in central flori-duh. 59 degrees and goin’ up to mid 70’s.

i don’t get too worked up about people criticizing catholics, the church or the pope. happens alot. many times justified. sometimes a product of ignorance. but what the pope did was bogus. i have no problem with him baptizing a muslim convert. i was raised catholic (and even went to church on Easter this year). that’s a regular part of the Easter vigil service and people converting from all different faiths get baptized. but this guy should have been left out. even if he was one of several. looks like only benedict can make this controversial. just a bogus move - both for what it said to the world and for injecting that into what is supposed to be a joyous religious serrvice considered one of the most important in the church calendar.

I’m afraid you’re right. I wouldn’t have believed it three months ago, but there is simply no way to deny it now.

Courtesy of the Republic Party of America.

dan abrams made the point last night that mccain is getting a pass for flip-flops that if made by hrc or bo would have the media all over them for days.

I’ve read most of the supposedly horrendous, treasonous, icky-icky bad vote for me instead quotes.

So?

He was preaching to his congregation - ministering to his flock. I agree with a lot of what he said. I don’t agree with it all. But nothing he said precludes a single member of his congregation from being a great president.

In fact, I say, “GOD DAMN AMERICA!”

“God Damn any nation that uses torture as an official policy, and the United States uses torture approved by the President. God damn America.”

“God Damn America for refusing to see the truth and re-electing a mendacious warmonger.”

“God Damn America for putting up with gross incompetence, malfeascence, corruption and treason in the White House.”

“God Damn America for putting security ahead of our precious freedoms.”

Thank God that vengence is His and not mine. He sits in judgement of George Bush and Dick Cheney, and they will be judged. Thank God that it is not up to me what their fate will be after they are judged.

Thank God that the Constitution of the United States is still (somewhat) intact and that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”. I have no desire to have my government tell me how to worship God. I have seen no religion that is capable of government without the corruption of itself as a religion.

so…

Hillary: Shut up about Rev. Wright. Acknowledge the reality of your position, stand aside, and get on with ensuring the election of a Democratic President.

As for the current administration… ITMFA

i don’t blame hillary — for anything really. i just chalk it up to PTSD from being subjected to all that sniper fire.

I think what you’re describing is a more general phenomenon. At UC Berzerkely in the mid-60s, there was a street preacher that everyone called Hubert or Herbert, who stood near the university entrance every day and bellowed at us sinners on our way to class. He had bright red hair, freckles and when he got worked up, he’d turn completely red. We worried he’d explode.

I have the right to criticize America and I didn’t serve in the Marines.

I don’t understand what you are saying. Why didn’t AIDs track like other diseases? How did other diseases track? Where in Africa? I doubt most places in Africa maintained medical records in 1920 or any other time.

Right, and then there are the threats about worshipping a golden calf and, most importantly, the overthrowing the money changers and saying that the house of prayer had been turned into a den of thieves. But Fox News wouldn’t care to hear any of those explanations.

Benedict has a long history of giving offense to Islam.

Right. I understand this and agree. What seems a little strange though is the juxtaposition of the seemingly ecumenical message of peace and reconciliation with an act that would have to have been known to have consequences completely counter to the ecumenical message. It just seems ignorant. Perhaps it’s attributable to a political balancing act within Catholic hierarchy.

Rev Wright has to cancel his remarks in a guest church because of security. This is way past disgusting.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/n.....hila_3.php

A church is more than the pastor.
It is the congregation.
The suggestion that you should leave a congregation every time you disagree with the pastor strikes me as coming from someone with either vary little tolerance, capacity of individual thought or experience with being part of a larger group.

The rule here is we don’t insult commenters or call each other names. You may call that censorship, but we do enforce this rule out of respect for our commenters.