I’m so dismayed by the personal charges and name calling of campaign surrogates that I actually turned off MSNBC right in the middle of something Lanny Davis was saying. Not to pick on Lanny, mind you; he just happened to be the surrogate assigned to push the holier than thou religious issue.
It could easily have been some General talking nonsense about McCarthyism, or James Carville being ridiculous comparing Richardson to Judas, for heaven’s sake. (James: it’s the Republicans, stupid!) But put aside the political implications for a moment. These people are hurting the country, and they need to stop.
With the country nearly drowning in problems so overwhelming that it feels like we’re being collectively waterboarded, our media are now asking candidates "whom would you select for your pastor?" And just as offensive, "would you listen to your opponent’s pastor?"
I noticed the Pope delivered an Easter greeting calling for peace and reconciliation, and those sound like good ideas. But then he kinda rubbed the Muslims’ noses in holy water, making a public display of personally baptizing an ex-Muslim convert who’s known for his anti-Muslim remarks. Does he not see the connection? Udpdate: And how would the Pope respond to the Saudi King’s call for interfaith dialogue?
Some candidates want us to believe that when they display their pastors, it reveals their own virtue. Rudy Guiliani was thrilled to get the endorsement of Pat Robertson; John McCain was equally honored by John Hagee; Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee endorsed themselves. These are men who don’t bat an eye when right wing zealots think God’s wrath will deal with gays, blacks and Muslims, but woe be unto him who criticizes US wars against the unfaithful. George Bush doesn’t seem to need a pastor, since he claims God gives him direct authorizations to invade other peoples’ countries. And I suspect if Dick Cheney were told he had pursued policies that a majority thought were an abomination before God, he’d respond, "so?"
This political year our media have moved America dangerously close to a religious litmus test. You either believe in a religious crusade or you don’t. John McCain is a true believer, so he gets a pass. All others must prove themselves daily.
But any sane person realizes it’s a threat to the world. Never mind it’s bad for the economy; it’s not good for the country’s soul, and it’s pretty clear the Founders thought it was a terrible idea. They told us that in the Constitution, but too many in our media don’t seem to understand why they did that.
It’s distressing that the candidates keep taking the litmus test every time the media asks them to, instead of telling the reporters to butt out and go read the Constitution. Someone needs to do that, and I suspect that moment is coming. This notion that everyone has to prove not only that they’re religious, but they believe only in America’s religion and renounces all others is dangerous in a democracy built on many peoples and many faiths and the necessity for tolerance.
Though responding in different ways, both Dem candidates felt they had to reject a pastor’s words when he challenged the politically safe view of America and its role in the world. We should worry that they felt compelled to do that and worry even more when a campaign finds it politically helpful to encourage such intimidation. But too many in our media are selling the idea that we should all be relieved if everyone prefers a safe pastor.
Update II: Rev. Wright is forced to cancel speaking engagements because of security concerns. (h/t TPM and snowbird2) Mission Accomplished.
Update III: Preacher Hubert speaking to students in Berkeley in the 1960s. (h/t cbl2) :
Preacher Hubert at Berkeley
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separation of sturch n’ chate!
pastors are wacky.
coffee is ready – ‘morning, Scarecrow…
A “safe” pastor? Silly me, I always thought it was part of the job of the pastor to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Shows how much I’ve learned after all that church-going…
Or starch and shirt
Dem candidates felt they had to reject a pastor
That’s not an accurate description of what Obama did, who rejected some political statements from the Pastor that are valid to criticize. He did not reject the man.
Clinton herself used this issue, when talking to Richard Mellon Scaife! It’s not just Clinton surrogates.
To paraphrase a recent blog, your candidates suck, and their pastors are worse.
Good morning, everyone.
This is so silly, arguing about who spouts better superstions or who you prefer to watch get all wound up and spew irrationalities. I so don’t get it.
So exactly who did Hillary pick to be her pastor? See here.
Good morning, Scarecrow. Great post and thanks for sayin it. Somebody needed to.
“My religion and my pastor is better than yours! Nanny goats, nanny goats, nahhhhhhh!”.
Tired of it.
Being a long lapsed Catholic, Mrs. Clinton’s remarks simply did not register with me.
Roman Catholics don’t get to choose their pastor. Posts are assigned by Diocesan fiat.
A pecularly modern phenomenon.
Church as Accessory.
One for each mood, each day of the week.
Yeesh.
that’d be a good bet, you could even lay odds at 10 to one and be safe
Somehow it always seems to be Hillary’s campaign staff who are on the offensive. By now I know Wolfson, Davis, Penn, Ickes, and Carville by sight from having seen them multiple times on TV doing some rather hard hitting. Of Obama’s staff, I would only recognize Axelrod, and he has never been on a serious offensive when I’ve seen him.
Perhaps it’s simply that Hillary’s team is in a desperate spot and having to be extremely aggressive to have any chance at all. She certainly can’t sit back and let Obama run out the clock. She probably feels that as long as there is a 5% chance she owes it to her contributors and supporters to fight hard. But, IMHO, we’ve reached the point where the DNC leadership should step in in a way that Hillary can retain credibility with her supporters and this mess can be brought to a speedy conclusion.
We should have disbanded the Evangelical cult when we had the chance. Bah hahahahahahaha! *waiting for the tomatoes to be thrown*
See revisions. The point is not so much what each said but why they felt politically compelled to say it.
Morning folks.
Thanks for including the story on the Pope baptizing the former Muslim, Scarecrow. I too was very offended by this story and thought it was the worst possible form of propaganda.
Unfortunately, if Iraq violence explodes in the way it appears to be headed, we may look back on the “preacher wars” as a more innocent time.
I’m no cheerleader for clinton and I surely don’t agree with her campaign tactics but I really have to agree with the point
I would not attend nor allow my children attend a temple where the clergy were homulating points of view I do not want my family to consider
if my clergy even tried to sermon that evolution did not exist, that would be the last sermon we heard, if he tried to sermon other religions are evil, that would be the last sermon we heard, and forgive me those christians who’s pastor might have said the following, but if my clergy ever tried to sermon that people of other faiths would not be found in heaven, that would be the last sermon I heard
so I agree with clinton’s point though I don’t agree with the tactic
Excuse me?
cawCAW Scarecrow!
another excellent post.
Hard to argue with someone who makes so much sense all the time.
But what can we do about it, as a group?
That’s what I always thought my job was.
I agree with your thesis and don’t wish to distract from the point. However, in this instance, Hillary wasn’t compelled to say anything, and didn’t for some time. She elected to say something when the issue began to fade.
I’m a little surprised the Pope story did draw a reaction — though it may have and we don’t see it in the US media. Yesterday, the King of Saudi Arabia called for dialogue among the great religions. Saudi Arabia isn’t exactly the paragon of religious tolerance, but I thought it was an interesting follow up.
You should make me your pastor. I’ll post the address where you can send your donations.
What can we do? I personally favor invading the tv studies and throwing rotten tomatoes. Notice I didn’t say throw them AT anyone; that would be bad.
I was going to say that.
I was off line when the Wright flap first erupted, so didn’t weigh in on it then, but this is really getting ridiculous.
but what does he mean “the great religions”, is he talking populace?
is Mormonism a great rligion? …judeaism?…paganism?…satonism?…most religions aren’t religions at all, they are cultures with sub religions with completely different beliefs and tradition
sorry RevDeb, Peterr… not ALL pastors are wacky, just the ones hooked up with the pols…
;-)
My efforts on this front will include an attempt to get back to the concept that a person’s religion (or lack thereof) is a private matter and to concentrate on activities that will help elect a Democratic President and a more Democratic Congress.
by the current metric, this Pastor is by no means safe – funny that
It is for the media, this pastor thing. They get to keep it trivial and salacious for the masses and advertisers.
Hillary thinks she can win this way.
It is time to get on with the business of defeating McCain.
Perhaps we should do a poll of whether people would have walked out of Obama’s church. It’s a very personal preference, and being a parent can influence the decision.
My son visits FDL all the time, and this is sometimes far more radical than Rev. Wright. He didn’t know who Scarecrow was until he saw the pic of RevDeb and the Mass. gang.
I think politicians need to simply say that their religious beliefs are a private and not relevant to the job they are seeking and play no part in their decision making.
Of course, knowing how religion and attending or subscribing to a nice acceptable sane?? religion IS now a litmus test for pols it’s not gonna happen.
But I wish a few would just not take the test and say it has no place in politics. The approach they take is to allow the test to be given and try to skate past it. Obi got caught and McLiar panders and Hill seems to be doing a prayer club thing with the right to establish her bonda fides.
We need more push back against the religionists who want to have a voice in political matters. If they care about these things let them work within their congregations and keep their asses out of politics.
I all ready attend the Church of The Scarecrow every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday — but I haven’t been tithing, sorry.
This whole line of attack and finger pointing is making my stomach churn. I don’t expect my parishioners to agree with everything I say. Some of what I put out there is to make them think about how they view issues themselves. And context is everything. You can’t sound-bite religion which is the problems we’ve been having for the past 30 years in the public square and election circus.
perris- you wouldn’t attend a faith tradition that said those things anyway. That’s why you are here among progressive thinkers. And there actually are progressive religions where we do talk about evolution being a good thing and we don’t talk about having exclusive rights to a god or heaven. People can and do choose their religious communities to affirm what they already feel about how things work and what life is about. I don’t believe that any of the candidates—the ones we are stuck with now and the ones that dropped out—live out their faith on a daily basis. It is the role of the church/temple/mosque, etc. to challenge people to do so.
This tack by Hillary is so much bunk. I’d been planning to write in Edwards name in the PA primary but I’m getting so pissed at Hillary I may have to vote for BO. URGH.
I’m sorry; I was paraphrasing; dunno what words he used. I’ll try to find the link.
Good moanin’ to all. Pretty sure everyone thinks McChaney channels the great evil one from Hell…Nixon. And McBush leaves his lipstick kiss on his mirror..guess we know his advisor.
They’re not even that. What they are is a club that you belong to which with attempts to exclude others or seduce them to join. It requires that you indoctrinate your children into their myths so that when they are old enough to actually think, the don’t even bother to question the myths and accept them as articles of faith and everyone is suppose to have “faith”.
I know as a fact I would have, possibly not that day in respect for the other members in attendance but I would have certainly had a word with the pastor immediately following and if an apology wasn’t forthright, I would have become a member of another
Out of curiosity, which specific comment(s) were that offensive?
I think that progressive churches are heading toward “science and rational” thought more and faith and myth less.
What probably happens is that most of the “fairly tales and allegories become “lessons” of behavior and that is not a bad thing. But many people don’t need those lessons – they arrive at them thru logic and not “faith”.
So getting people to think is always a good thing and to re examine their assumptions. This of course can lead to them leaving their churches, so not too much free thought is usually encouraged.
Dumping on the USA is read as unpatriotic ain’t it?
It’s the same kind of hate when someone protests the war and what the country is doing. They are branded unpatriotic.
Here’s the MSNBC link to Saudi King’s call for interfaith dialogue.
I have to admit, I have only heard the comments out of context and might have a differant opinion in context
K-Street Corporate Lobbyist James Matalin, calls Bill Richardson, a Judas. Of course, James and Cruella Deville’s pastor is Satan. (Any corporate lobbyist has sold their soul to the Devil.)
So there might be a bit of hypocrisy for Hillary to play the Religious Pandering Card. To repeat, THE ATTACKS ON REV. WRIGHT ARE RACIST. He might be provocative, but he is also intelligent, and articulate. And he was a Marine so he has earned the right to say most anything.
Note, Hillary is applying a religious test which is un-Constitutional.
I’ve been to Wright’s church, and what seems to be irritating everyone isn’t so much what he said, but the way he said it.
Wright didn’t speak in quiet measured tones, reflecting soberly on how US foreign policy has made us weaker instead of safer, like Jimmy Carter on a Sunday morning talk show. He got excited. He got irritated. He got loud. he got passionate.
Ask Howard Dean what happens when you get excited and loud and passionate. Yeeeeee haaahhhhh!!
A lot — not all, but a lot — of this is more about the fact that Wright is a black preacher, who preaches in the style of his community. It conjures up images of the Angry Black Man, which brings up the fear and racism that still beats in too many hearts in this nation.
To the extent that the Clinton campaign is bringing this up as a dogwhistle call using race, I am appalled.
Good morning, Scarecrow. Thank you for another excellent post.
In the modern western culture the changing of one’s religious views is not something that people are likely to become greatly exercised over.
In Islam however the denial of one’s faith is a far more serious matter. See Apostasy in Islam in Wikipedia. Throughout Islam, the punishment for a male apostate is death. I’m certainly not supporting this as an enlightened precept, but it makes it very odd indeed that the leader of the Catholic Church would act in the way you describe. Could it be ascribed to ignornance?
what?
Anyone has a right to criticize. Your service in the marines does not give you this right.
As we’ve seen, it depends on who is doing it and what the context is. If it’s a right-wing preacher dumping on America for tolerating homosexuality and abortion, it’s not considered unpatriotic at all.
I curse this nation quite often for what I consider to be horrific behavior throughout the world, yet I consider myself patriotic.
So, I’m curious exactly which dumping on America by Rev. Wright was so over the line that Obama should have sought a different pastor.
Interesting comments on Wright. I’d point out that Wright is not running for president. Also, I wasn’t aware pastors/preachers are required to speak in quiet measured tones,, although Tim Russert may believe otherwise.
You should have heard Jesus when he threw the money changers out of the temple. He was pissed.
hey Peterman!
Paul Waldman
Peterr 43
Ask Howard Dean what happens when you get excited
You get swiftboated by the corporate media ‘just like Obama did’…very good examples of corporate media attacks.
And you shouldn’t as long as you are a sane rational person.
I think she is showing her true colors which are that she is power hungry (like so many) and will play hard ball to get what she is going for.
Admittedly you have to be pretty tough to play that game. But unless and until pols act with more ethics and stop with the strategies and tactics and present facts and keep to issues it will continue to be dirty pool.
The Rs figured that out and have vast strategies for creating consensus among the uniformed and lazy thinkers.
Hill is supposed to “cool” because she can beat “them” at their own game, or at least hold her own with the best (worst) of them.
No.
Benedict has a long history of giving offense to Islam. It’s not as if no one has pointed out to him exactly what he has said or done that is offensive before. When he was elected, those in the Roman Catholic hierarchy who move in ecumenical and interfaith circles were distressed, to say the least, because they had a good idea what would be coming from the way this pope would speak and act toward those of other religions (or no religion at all).
That being said, from what I have heard, the journalist in question has been under heavy protection for quite a while because of the anti-Islam things he has written — long before he converted to Christianity and was baptized last week. Like Salman Rushdie, he’s had death threats to deal with for quite some time.
Actually, for Tim and an inordinate number of comentators, they should speak in quiet, measured, tones of Latin.
What I heard Wright say seemed liked a good analysis.
http://www.tucc.org/pastor.htm
Nice link. Thanks!
The guy is a nazi. He dresses in silly skirts, wears stupid looking hats and steals money from the poor. And you expect rational actions? Not going to happen.
Your POV is basically fascist. One believes in free speech or not, just like you trust your family, friends and the rest of the nation or not. When you filter out offending viewpoints, that’s censorship. Besides no one chooses a church or synagogue for the sermons. It’s more a social thing. Damn few of us leave our friends because the minister or rabbi said something offensive.
Hillary’s attack on Obama because he remained in Wright’s church is contemptible especially when she “misspeaks” on ducking sniper bullets in Bosnia.
As for Wright, I am white and I agree with much of what he said. God damn America is harsh, but we have not been sweetness and light in dealing with foreigners. As a proponent of democracy, we like elected officials who toe our line. We try to overthrow those who don’t. AIDs may well have been concocted in a DOD laboratory. I don’t believe the intention was to take out blacks, but our government has experimented on unsuspecting civilians before. It is not much of a stretch for some bureaucrat to test a new virus in some remote African village. The genie just got out of the bottle, another damaging mistake from the folks who brought us Vietnam.
The AIDs virus is far more complex than any previously known virus, making an evolutionary explanation unlikely. Then there are the periodic explanations for AIDs such as a British sailor who developed AIDs like symptoms in the 60’s before recombinant DNA and the French company who used monkeys to develop serums which were then injected into the population. AIDs is the first epidemic where someone seems compelled to try to prove it natural.
Do yourself and everyone a favor and vote for Obama
why does that give him special preference over the “ordinary” person as far as what he says in church?
You imply a special class of citizen for Marines.
There was a time when the Church burned heretics. In our colonies, we used to drown women we thought were witches, an early form of waterboarding gone too far, which even Proferrsor Yoo might not approve now, though he probably would have then. We are more civilized today; we pay $10,000 in reparations for “collateral damage” when we drop bombs on homes and kill innocent people. It’s okay, because those guys are the “extremists” but we’re fine.
And I’m supposed to get upset at Rev. Wright?
Are you saying that all epidemics in the past were not of natural origin, but man made? I think you want to reconsider that statement.
Angry old men who are ranting tend to exaggerate. It’s the grumpy-old-man syndrome. IMHO that was what was behind McCain’s recent gaffe, for example.
In the case of Rev Wright, the context of his “goddamn America” was actually “goddamn America … for killing innocent people.” That doesn’t seem so all that outrageous to me in the middle of a rant by a righteously angry old man speaking to his friends.
Wow, some interesting stuff in that article. How about this:
That’s something that many of us here could have said. I never thought that I would see that coming from someone in an advisory council in Saudi Arabia, especially as an explanation/extension of statements by the King.
We live in interesting times, indeed. Am I actually asking the advisers to Clinton and Obama to listen to an adviser to the Saudi King? Yes.
“And he was a
MarineAfrican-AmericanChristianMuslimDemocratRepublicanso he has earned the right to say most anything.”See, it works with any label you drop in.
Hypocrisy is all around.
We are drowning in hypocrisy.
how in bloody hell is this any different than this ?
there will be poo
she’s Eve F’ing Harrington to the Party’s Margo Channing
oh look, campaign flair from HRC
could i have some links to back up this statement? thanks.
The phrase “righteous indignation” comes to mind.
The prophet Ezekiel called Jerusalem the sister city of Sodom, because the leaders in both cities led lives of wealth, pride and prosperous ease yet neglected the poor, the widow, the orphan, and those in need. I’m guessing that went over about as well with the leaders in Jerusalem as Wright’s “God damn America” line did at the White House.
Some of us have been doing that for decades or longer. And people are coming not leaving because they want to be part of something larger than themselves. They want to figure out their place in the universe. And they want their children to be brought up with strong values.
It is rarely mentioned that Wright was in the military for six years. Since his patriotism ( and by association Obama’s) is questioned, his military service to his country does show patriotism.
Everyday, I hear the slander from Liars on TeeVee, that Rev. Wright uses “hate speech” and is himself “racist”.
It is mainly “chickenhawks” those who have not been in the military, who spread this macaca. The worst offender is neo-con Pat Buchanan. He has tried to assassinate Wright’s reputation (as done to Howard Dean).
Just the fact that you can write these words and no one has to question what you mean is chilling.
Great post.
I agree He isnt a Washington insider.
“It’s gonna be a rocky election!”
Uh, people can express their pov here; let’s not be suggesting anyone here is fascist.
I think the best thing to do (as individuals and as a group) is to insist on rational answers to policy questions. e.g., “Neither his nor your pastor is running for president, you are. How do you intend to address [insert issue]?”
I thought I read that one of the snippets of a sermon was a few days after 9-11
Oh, now I see the point you were making.
this is a rediculousm statement, a person believes in free speech as it applies to the government and public service, not as it applies to my listening to that speach
I have no idea where you learned the meaning of free speach but it is at best, tortured
Exhibit A: Romney’s “religion speech.”
Still lots of winking and nudging going on with regard to religion.
Something tells me my friend RevDeb can sort this out for herself.
Short version: Rev. Wright has earned the right to criticize America, without his patriotism being questioned. Hillary is being ridiculous.
this is of coure, in context, fine, however as scarecrow said, the tone and antics are as much speech as the words are
I can point my middle finger at you and say you are a saint when actually, what I have said is you’re a fuck tard
same thing here, the context has to be taken with the intonations and antics for the meaning to be realistic
There’s a very interesting story related to this that I happen to know about.
Ten to twenty years ago, Los Alamos National Lab was tasked with doing the necessary research to detect, identify, and remediate biological warfare attacks. In keeping with their general ways of doing things, they developed very sophisticated computer-based epidemiological models. When they had them worked out, they tested those models against data from the Center for Disease Control to validate and calibrate those models.
It turned out that their models worked quite well for most all diseases, but it didn’t agree with conventional wisdom regarding AIDS. Rather, it indicated that AIDS had entered the human population in the 1920s somewhere in Africa. And, indeed when they checked health records from that time and place, they pretty well confirmed what those computer models were telling them.
I regret I don’t have electronic links. See NY Times May 26, 1986 p. A-26; August 3, 1986 page A-1 and March 3, 1987 page C-1. As I point out the complexity does not prove it recombinant DNA. The evidence is circumstantial
MccCain changed from the Episcopal Church to the Baptist Church. Shouldn’t he have to explain this flip flop?
From the videos I’ve seen, Rev. Wright’s tone an antics are very typical of every other black preacher I’ve heard. In the middle of a sermon, they could talk of going to the store for groceries and it would sound that way.
What else do you call someone who apparently favors censorship?
I still can’t get over how the world has gone “Through the Looking Glass” on this one. The United States, at its founding, chose as a central tenet the separation of church and state. Yet, this election appear to have a number of religious litmus tests that the press cannot get over.
By contrast, Saudi Arabia uses the Qur’an as its constitution, yet a member of the Consultative Council tells extremists to stop using religion to achieve their goals.
How did we get here?
hey guys. great post, as usual, scarecrow.
nice day to be off work in central flori-duh. 59 degrees and goin’ up to mid 70’s.
i don’t get too worked up about people criticizing catholics, the church or the pope. happens alot. many times justified. sometimes a product of ignorance. but what the pope did was bogus. i have no problem with him baptizing a muslim convert. i was raised catholic (and even went to church on Easter this year). that’s a regular part of the Easter vigil service and people converting from all different faiths get baptized. but this guy should have been left out. even if he was one of several. looks like only benedict can make this controversial. just a bogus move – both for what it said to the world and for injecting that into what is supposed to be a joyous religious serrvice considered one of the most important in the church calendar.
I’m afraid you’re right. I wouldn’t have believed it three months ago, but there is simply no way to deny it now.
Courtesy of the Republic Party of America.
dan abrams made the point last night that mccain is getting a pass for flip-flops that if made by hrc or bo would have the media all over them for days.
I’ve read most of the supposedly horrendous, treasonous, icky-icky bad vote for me instead quotes.
So?
He was preaching to his congregation – ministering to his flock. I agree with a lot of what he said. I don’t agree with it all. But nothing he said precludes a single member of his congregation from being a great president.
In fact, I say, “GOD DAMN AMERICA!”
“God Damn any nation that uses torture as an official policy, and the United States uses torture approved by the President. God damn America.”
“God Damn America for refusing to see the truth and re-electing a mendacious warmonger.”
“God Damn America for putting up with gross incompetence, malfeascence, corruption and treason in the White House.”
“God Damn America for putting security ahead of our precious freedoms.”
Thank God that vengence is His and not mine. He sits in judgement of George Bush and Dick Cheney, and they will be judged. Thank God that it is not up to me what their fate will be after they are judged.
Thank God that the Constitution of the United States is still (somewhat) intact and that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”. I have no desire to have my government tell me how to worship God. I have seen no religion that is capable of government without the corruption of itself as a religion.
so…
Hillary: Shut up about Rev. Wright. Acknowledge the reality of your position, stand aside, and get on with ensuring the election of a Democratic President.
As for the current administration… ITMFA
i don’t blame hillary — for anything really. i just chalk it up to PTSD from being subjected to all that sniper fire.
I think what you’re describing is a more general phenomenon. At UC Berzerkely in the mid-60s, there was a street preacher that everyone called Hubert or Herbert, who stood near the university entrance every day and bellowed at us sinners on our way to class. He had bright red hair, freckles and when he got worked up, he’d turn completely red. We worried he’d explode.
I have the right to criticize America and I didn’t serve in the Marines.
I don’t understand what you are saying. Why didn’t AIDs track like other diseases? How did other diseases track? Where in Africa? I doubt most places in Africa maintained medical records in 1920 or any other time.
Right, and then there are the threats about worshipping a golden calf and, most importantly, the overthrowing the money changers and saying that the house of prayer had been turned into a den of thieves. But Fox News wouldn’t care to hear any of those explanations.
Right. I understand this and agree. What seems a little strange though is the juxtaposition of the seemingly ecumenical message of peace and reconciliation with an act that would have to have been known to have consequences completely counter to the ecumenical message. It just seems ignorant. Perhaps it’s attributable to a political balancing act within Catholic hierarchy.
Rev Wright has to cancel his remarks in a guest church because of security. This is way past disgusting.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/n…..hila_3.php
A church is more than the pastor.
It is the congregation.
The suggestion that you should leave a congregation every time you disagree with the pastor strikes me as coming from someone with either vary little tolerance, capacity of individual thought or experience with being part of a larger group.
The rule here is we don’t insult commenters or call each other names. You may call that censorship, but we do enforce this rule out of respect for our commenters.
You are right. I have no problem with your deciding what you want to hear, but I object when you think you have the right to protect family, friends, children or whoever from speech you consider objectionable. IMHO you have a right to control yourself and no one else.
Okay, I see how context changes this, but I think I’m with perris here. I’m all for political and moral anger, and I might very well sit in on a speech like this and be in complete agreement. But for Sunday morning with my young kids? I don’t think so. This isn’t the message that I connect with religious service. The pastor at the very small village church my son and I occasionally (these days) attend – gives us a little food for thought each week – ideas to ponder such as strengthening connections with family, supporting community, service to others, forgiveness. I’m leery of a religious service advocation anger, or hatred? (to say goddamn anything reveals a hostile intent). I’ve got plenty of anger already. I’m looking for a religious leader who encourages me to get beyond anger.
So bottom line is, I might attend such a service with an older kid, a teenager, as a place to start a discussion about things going on in the world. But younger kids, I don’t think this is appropriate.
it was Hubert ! what was his counterpart’s name ? the Ramparts guy, he had a tagline – Hubert, the Godmobile is here . . .
LOL
I didn’t say my friends, I did say my family though
I am talking about the children I am raising, I am raising them to have trust in our clergy, if the clergy cannot keep that trust, I cannot entrust them with the growth of my children
now if we are talking about my grown children or my wife, you are correct, but I was talking about the children I am raising, my wife can listen to whoever she wants
our mutual respect and love however is not unconditional, I love my wife for what she is, if she is not the person I love, I would no longer be in love
and the same would hold for her I assume
Try this on for size. It’s a bit technical, but puts HIV in context with related viruses. I have a lot of respect for Wright, but his point here is most generously interpreted as hyperbole:
So…….
My milkshake brings all the goyas to the yard!
must go tow work, lest I am late for appointments
a great discussion and thread scarecrow, thanx again
It tracked the data but inferred that AIDS had entered the human population at a time that was different from the prevailing theory. Subsequent on-the-ground investigations have pretty well confirmed that the LANL model was correct.
http://www.lanl.gov/news/index…..ry_id/1033
Absolutely. Like Hillary, if I mispoke, let me try again. Wright is being “branded” as a hateful anti-American by neo-con cowards-Buchanan, Mornin Joe, Limbo, Hannity etc. His record has been falsely portrayed, and is being exploited as an indirect attack on Obama.
Does this apply to you also? If so, why are you trying to influence what perris says?
Were you there too? Crazy times. I don’t remember the other guy. I preferred Hubert.
I know as a fact I read, but do not know how accurate, that when the virus was first isolated, we found blood 40 years old that tested positive
in other words, the virus was around a long time before it became an epidemic
Ironic that the Marines gave you that right.
No one ‘deserves’ to put down America. America is the greatest nation on earth presently because people put their idealogical differences aside when it really mattered.
Side note, I wonder if anything would be said if a Muslim cleric was accepting a Catholic into the Muslim religion
Hillary is calling Obama liberal?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
I thought he was too conservative for liberals?
let me make a point before I go;
respect is not as commonly said, something “you earn”
we all grant each other respect, it is disrespect a person earns, not the other way around
off for the day
Exactly. Most people are not all that careful about condemning the sin rather than the sinner, and the United States of America has committed a lot of sins that are worthy of condemnation. Wright was a bit more flamboyant about it, in the way all Black preachers are when they are mid-sermon. But what I’ve heard quoted is not so over the top that I’d think ill of someone who failed to walk out.
How gracious of her to bestow such a wonderful compliment upon her rival.
Wow, I was wondering how long it would take the WaPo to put up a front page article calling Obama liberal. The NYT had one of its own yesterday. Oh the horror, the horror.
Glenn Greenwald is right.
i think only the last nyt article is free in the archives, so it’s the only one i read. (link) and it doesn’t say anything about the evolutionary origin of hiv-1.
…. just also want to point out that those articles are more than 20 years old when the study of hiv-1 was just beginning.
has anyone posted this open (unpublished) letter to the NYT by Rev. Wright?
From the Post article:
My bold.
Wow, I guess this implies that she is not in favor of these things. I’m afraid I must be way too liberal for Hill.
excellent link! thank you.
I would no longer be surprised to see Hillary’s head swivel 360 degrees, followed by an upchuck. I have come to believe that Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson are collectively known as Captain Howdy.
OT
Can someone tell me (us) is pass thru corporations are legal in the USA. Is it legal to have a shell corporation which does absolutely nothing? If so, why would this be allowed as it seems to do nothing more than aid in money laundering or fog the trail of money for questionable use.
Of course it applies to me. We have discussions which do not necessarily persuade anyone, but the fact remains we, individually and all of us, are responsible for what we believe. We may be introduced to all sorts of perceptions as children, but there comes a time when we become responsible. I think the time should be early. Children should be encouraged to think for themselves even to the point of challenging parents. As for tone, some of us, myself included, may be more outspoken, but the solution is to develop thicker hides rather than attempt to silence those who offend us.
I would be for both of these things. Cubas easy the healthcare hard and may have to be done in increments.
Thanks, I’ve added that link.
thank you!
the Times needs to publish it.
First, coming late to the party I haven’t read all 123 comments. So please indulge me if this has been said.
As one of nonbelievers in this country, I’ve been preaching the gist of Scarecrow’s post for years.
There has always existed in this country a defacto litmus test, because nonbelievers start out disadvantaged if they want to run for office. There are very few of them – and in today’s environment, it’s even harder. The simple facts of tribal identity come into play, and someone who doesn’t subscribe to your beliefs is judged as unworthy or inappropriate to many religious (not I didn’t say all) people, especially those who belief that all morality, ethics, and goodness come from religion, so if you aren’t religious, you must be immoral, and thus unsuitable for public office.
That simple reality has always been frustrating, but it was there.
Now, however, it is no longer good enough to have religion, now you must somehow prove your religiosity in ways that simply confuse this nonbeliever. It’s creating a toxic stew that quite simply, and I do apologize to you believers because I understand that individuals are not, for the most part, like this, but it is creating a situation where you ALL look bad.
I admire what Obama did and said in his speech. I wish he’d taken it one step further, and tied religion to personal, and off limits, like I wish they all would. When asked about their religion, politicians should answer “That is a private, personal thing, like it is for all Americans, and I’m not going to answer that.” If the f’ing media persists, they should quote the Constitution “There is no religious test for holding office, our country affords us freedom of religion, it is private and personal, I’m not discussing it.” And then not discuss it.
There are groups in this country who assert we are a Christian nation because that is what they want – the ability to establish a theocracy, and make their view of God’s law the law of the land. Quite frankly, that scares me more than I can convey. If you all value your freedom of religion, and the ability to worship as you see fit, you would push back against this.
I agree. This letter needs very wide distribution.
had to reboot -
I worked at Leopolds Records, Durant, across from Gross Burger
a stroll down memory lane for ya
I missed it, thanks for the link.
Beautifully put. I think I said the same above. Let’s take religion out of politics and government and not even ALLOW religion litmus tests.
That’s Hubert! Great picture. thanks.
May I use that picture in a future post? Or this one? (Is it public?)
What Rev Wright said is “goddamn America for killing innocent people”.
Ive said that too, many times.
I think this is a faith-based rather than a fact-based assertion.
Oh, and define “great” .
me too, so I don’t understand why there’s a fuss about it.
C-SPAN 1 AMERICAN PRESS CLUB “RISING GAS PRICES” LIVE
To be clear: the constitution prohibits the state from imposing a religious litmus test, but says nothing about what a voter might or might not consider important when choosing between two (or more) candidates.
Personal litmus tests are just that — personal. And preserving the separation of church and state is one of mine.
Amen. If you say the devil talks to you you get put in a psyche ward if you say god speaks to you you get to be president.
Seriously though people’s religious beliefs, or lack thereof, should be entirely a private matter and while we are at it can we ban the street proselytizers, they are nothing but a damn nuisance.
Scarecrow:
You make it sound like both sides are “pushing the holier than thou religious issue”:
“I’m so dismayed by the personal charges and name calling of campaign surrogates that I actually turned off MSNBC right in the middle of something Lanny Davis was saying. Not to pick on Lanny, mind you; he just happened to be the surrogate assigned to push the holier than thou religious issue.”
You also make it sound like both sides surrogates are equally blameworthy in the “name calling”.
Who are the really repulsive surrogates and allies here? Richard Mellon Scaife, Rush Limbaugh, The Lobby or Obama’s campaign?
Clinton’s tactics recently have been, as the neocons might say, deeply clarifiying. A lot of Obama partisans have been saying enough is enough and are asking the superdelegates to put Clinton out of our misery. When is enough enough for FDL posters?
digg mates, digg Scarecrow’s most excellent post
and I made a digg for the Wright letter so it gets some circulation, so if you wouldn’t mind digging there too, please . . .
Good morning Scarecrow, fine post once again.
The news is not the news anymore. Journalism is a bad word these days.
Let’s face it, McCain will always get a pass, and the democrats will keep on being ass rammed by these rich talking heads.
linked both of them from Google Image :D
The USA is not the greatest nation on earth. The notion is absurd and there is absolutely no factual basis to make this statement.
We are not the biggest
We are not even the richest per capita
We are the largest debtor nation
We don’t have the highest literacy rate
We don’t have the lowest infant mortality rate
We have the most people in jail and per capita in jail
We don’t have live the longest
We don’t have the highest average wage of income or standard of living
We do have the most nuclear weapons
We do have the most military bases outside our shores
We do have the most aircraft carriers and nuclear subs, fight jets and most classes of military hardware
thank you!
(I am not going to get any work done today, too much to keep up with.)
Do you have the link?
sourcewatch on CFA
Peter,
Yes. It’s very high on my list as well-right up there with restoring the rest of our abused and fragile civil liberties. It’s the reason Dodd was my candidate.
I’m not trying to “unconvert” anyone – I really don’t care what you believe. It’s your choice, your right, and if it gives you comfort or helps you live better, that is fabulous. If it is your inspiration to be opposed to war, or cruelty, to treat others better, than that is a beautiful thing.
But it’s private. Even if it influences and drives how you act in public, it’s the private sphere, and it needs to stay there. We are a secular nation not because we don’t want god in the public square but because he doesn’t belong in a sanctioned position there, so as to allow all those in the public square an equal welcome.
Peterr,
Our voting choices really are passing a series of “litmus” tests.
My point is simply that since religion should be separated from government, personal religious beliefs should not be considered and so what sort of test could one pass?
Even not being a believer is perfectly OK and if simply having a religion allows one to pass that litmus test, then it locks out atheists and agnostics. Not constitutional and not just.
Scarecrow:
I’m not familiar with Clinton disavowing something her church said. Do you or anyone else have a link?
leinie, you’re a beautiful person. Just in case I hadn’t told you that before. :-)
Add this….
We do have chemical weapon stockpiles
We do torture on our political prisoners
We do not monitor our food supply for safety
We do not monitor our drugs for safety
We do not enforce laws and regulations that help the people, only those for the powerful
i haven’t read all comments yet–
the hillary article at 7– and comments pertaining to it–
i have previously posted here that i was a member of a baptist bible study group for a long long time, i am not baptist, nowhere near it.
i was invited, i went, i learned, they learned. i felt honored to be welcomed and be able to learn what and why they believe what they do…and i was not mistaken for one of ’them’ they knew who i am and what i believe….this church is the center for conservatism here, missionaries and all. people brought up by missionaries, republicans, all walks of life. most conservative church here besides the little pentacostal church and a few little spin-off ’baptist’ churches…….
most churches are methodist here.
to say that she is like fellow group attendees, like sam brownback, is just simply BULLSHIT. drawing conclusions.
i went to this baptist church every single week, that makes me a baptist and believer and follower of their doctrines and politics???????????
c’mon, we’re supposed to not meet and hang with anyone but people who believe every single thing we do?
same as obama did? /s
i don’t think so.
BuggyQ! Thank you. I haven’t seen you in ages. Hope all is well with you and yours.
And I must be in a mellow mood, because I’m not going off on the hateful ones who claim to be Christians but do nothing that reminds anyone of the figure Jesus Christ.
Not her church; his pastor.
I think that was one of the reasons we have the establishment clause. our founders were tired of religious involvement in politics and thought it had no place in govt.
nowadays, some forget this in an effort to gain advantage.
Sander you are correct as far as this:
The First Amendment guarantees Freedom Of Religion
It guarantees Freedom For Religion
It guarantees Freedom From Religion
And through the Freedom of Speech clause, it guarantees folks the rights to talk or not to talk about it as they see fit.
think this is it
another pic
his name was Hubert Lindsey
sorry OT=
last night was a great post by siun (not selise lol) about basra. those who are interested,
today right now is diane rehm show, about basra and baghdad and sadr.
Why Clinton doesn’t want to talk about her religion…
Hillary’s Prayer
That’s kind of my point. I don’t think Obama has made any mention of Clinton’s rightwing fruitcake church. Obviously he doesn’t want attention paid to his church, so it may be a people-in-glass-houses thing, but still: Clinton is calling for a litmus test by harping on Wright and Obama has not. It’s yet another case where she’s dirty and divisive, and Obama is clean.
dmac – so good in fact, the kids at groupnewsblog (gilliard alumni) referenced it in their comments -
You’ve gone a good distance, Sander, in delineating the ‘myths’ which imprison the American people in ignorance and conceit.
This whole thread has concerned the rational response of reasonable people (FDL denizens) to irrational, unreasonable and inhumane notions.
Well done all!
A pleasure to behold.
Thank you Pastor,
ps the check is in the mail
all of this is subject to the interpretation of imperfect People– mullahs, judges, Men.
Read here the actual verses from the Koran and Mohammed Ibn Laith’s post wrt religious tolerance from Gorilla’s Guides…
http://gorillasguides.com/2008…..n-the-run/
thank you for the post Scarecrow– and best wishes to Rev. Wright.
thanks much. He’ll forever be on FDL. that second file is a recording of his voice.
this has some deep stuff (don’t know much about the writer)
‘DID THE PENTAGON MANUFACTURE AIDS AS A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?’
By David Guyatt
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/pentagon_aids.htm
The Wright story is not about religion. It is about race and cultural norms.
I don’t think Clinton’s remark was very helpful, but about what you would expect from a pol trying to gain an advantage.
opps sorry, but it posted twice…
What? You think the Bubonic Plague (yersinia pestis) is simple? How about MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus)? That one will give you a definite headache.
That response was for ekunin @ 59. I agree with selise. Link please?
I should have read farther. Thanks for your reference.
although a regular supplicant at The Church of Aretha Franklin, I would some day like to visit this church
I don’t think that Obama would have talked at all about religion had he not been attacked from all sides and all the anti- Muslim fearmongers.
jmho.
And Hillary and her drones can STFU.
I am sick to death of the righteous lily- whites.
I have no idea of why you would attend a group for long term if you didn’t subscribe to their views or you were studying them for “academic” reasons. Are there other?
cbl2 at 168
thanks, i’ll check it out, i sent part of the post to the show, the parts they were,erm, missing…….
the paragraph about cheney and al-hakim and sadr.
katymine in response to brendanx–see my post at 159–and to all-i wasn’t trying to sound ’pissy’, well, maybe i was, it’s just that this ’she’s a neo-con’ talk about clinton attending a conservative group-meet regularly is so jaded and closed-minded that i don’t even know where to start………
my whole life i have embraced things and people whom i do not agree with, i learned loads…….if i ever ran for public office, and my associations were ’interpreted’, gee, it would be entertaining. i wouldn’t make it to the primary.
how many people actually put their money where there mouth is and do that?
i would make a leap and say, not the ones bashin’ her for it. or they would understand what it is.
so, let’s stick to substance.
there’s plenty of that to feed on.
So… why do you think Hill chose THAT group to attend? What would be the benefit to her is there was one? Was there any downside to that choice?
Scarecrow, just between you, me, and the fence post, you’re one of those people you’re criticizing. Stop making specious charges, and perhaps others will follow suit. If they don’t at least you won’t be a part of the problem any more.
It’s neither racist nor holier than thou to think, without understanding the context, that Jeremiah Wright is a bigot. In context, he seems like someone who needs some fresh air, but that’s beside the point.
If it weren’t for Christy, I’d have stopped reading this blog a long time ago. Most of you seem to have lost any touch with reality two or three months ago.
Wrong link. Try here.
Just a couple of comments on comments.
First, Hillary’s reference to her selecting her own Pastor. Last I heard, Hillary was a Methodist, and in the Methodist Denomination, the Bishop with the advice of the District Superintendents place Clergy in Pulpits, and remove them. There is a distinct notion of regular rotation after perhaps five or seven years. So it is incorrect to say she has a choice of pastors — she does have a choice of Churches if she lives in an urban area.
Obama’s UCC tradition follows the Congregationalist form — which is precisely what it says. The Congregation creates a Pulpit Committee when they need to fill a vacancy, they interview and create a short list, then they have trial sermons, and finally the whole congregation votes on a call.
On the Black response to HIV and AIDS. One may remember once it was established that GRID and then AIDs were spread among Gay Men through sexual transmission, we had the public service announcements where Ronnie Reagan Jr. demonstrated how to put a condom on a Banana. No, those ads were not promoting bananas, it was a demo about the ease in using condoms.
At the same time, Public Health Workers involved with AIDS wanted to do ads that showed how to mix some clorox with water, and use it to clean a drug needle. They also wanted to set up needle exchange programs, and change some laws that made it illegal to sell a needle without a prescription. What we had discovered, at this point, (and it is still true) needle sharing among drug users accounted for many HIV/AID’s cases in the Black cohort, particularly the very substantial occurance of AID’s among Black Women, and in the 80’s infant children infected at birth — and that a significant part of this tracked back to needle sharing and infection through residual blood in needles.
Well, the political response to ads about cleaning needles — Good Lord no, it would encourage people to use injectable drugs. Of course the same response did not show up to putting condoms on bananas. And yes — as Public Health Policy this difference was RACIST. And yes, one thing that did get attention was Black Preachers taking it on.
Nother issue. What is called the Hellfire and Brimstone Sermon in the Baptist and Fundamentalist tradition has always seemed to me to contrast properly with the form of many Black Preachers — but with the difference being most Black Preachers have more command of the biblical narrative, and they are also a bit closer to the American Social Gospel traditions.
As someone out of the Quaker tradition, where the form is unprogramed silence, I’ve long taken an interest in the Rhetoric of Preaching as an American Art form — an almost theatrical performance. You just don’t find it abroad. Nor do you really find it among Catholics and in Catholic majority countries. In fact, it strikes me Catholic’s specialize in really boring homolies.
Boy, for people who demand that we view everything in “context,” it’s interesting how much embellishment has been added to Hillary’s comments. She never attacked Wright’s patriotism, she said she didn’t condone hate speech and would have left the church. If you don’t want to call it hate speech, fine. But please don’t claim that it’s completely out of bounds to characterize it that way. The guy said white people were responsible for introducing AIDS to the black community. Do you really think there would be no uproar if Hillary’s pastor blamed blacks for introducing diseases to the white community? And please, I know all about the Tuskegee experiments. The fact remains that Wright is an educated, spiritual leader who his followers look to for guidance. Because people in the black community believe a wild, unfounded rumor is no excuse for him perpetuating a lie.
The level of criticism directed towards Hillary has gotten so ridiculous that she’s now being excoriated for not defending a guy who insulted her during a sermon, and humped his pulpit while talking about her husband. I think you’d consider that hateful if those comments were directed at you.
The fact is, Obama supporters are so used to casually saying the most hateful things about Hillary that they really think there’s a lower standard for what you can say about Hillary than there is for anyone else.
“A lot of Obama partisans have been saying enough is enough and are asking the superdelegates to put Clinton out of our misery”
So the superdelegates voting for Hillary at the convention will be a back room deal, but it’s perfectly acceptable for them to pressure a candidate to withdraw from the race while the primaries are still going on? I’m still having a hard time figuring out these new politics.
A question, if I may?
Do you mean, in your last sentence, to say that ALL Obama supporters engage in ‘hateful’ language?
Or do you perhaps, mean SOME?
‘Context’ would suggest, and observation would confirm, that SOME partisans on both sides are using ‘hateful’ language.
Would you be willing to agree?
The fact that both ’sides’ do ‘it’ does, of course, not render it ‘okay’,
such expediency as this behavior may represent, is neither conducive to reasonable discourse nor cognizant of the consequences which will attend it later on when accord and respect must accompany whomever is the ‘winner’.
Should we join in a frenzy of assault and scorn, bridging the gulf and healing the ‘wounds’ may become very difficult, if not impossible.
Considering the larger ‘goal’ such behaviors are counterproductive in the EXTREME.
I suspect you are urging restraint and reason, I could not agree more and hope that considered perspective will prevail.
If there is any meaningful rationale for the superdelegates, it would be to save the Democratic Party from a severe fracture which would lose the presidential election and perhaps be a permanent schism. When the only hope of one of the two contending candidates is to find some means of so damaging the other as to make them unelectable, and such an event would lose a major part of the Party electorate temporarily or permenantly, it is time for the superdelegates to act.
Yes, I meant some Obama supporters. That’s a minor point, since there are very few absolutes that apply in any political discussion. But I absolutely reject the “both sides do it” argument. I can’t see how any reasonable observer can view the comment sections of the major political sites (TPM, HuffPo, Washington Monthly, Kos, Yglesisas) and not see the huge disparity in negative comments from each side. But it goes beyond counting the comments from each side. Yglesias posted something yesterday about how Hillary should drop out, and the first commenter said he hoped a blood vessel burst in her brain. Other commenters on all of the sites I mentioned regularly refer to her as “the monster,” “Hitlery,” etc. I would challenge anyone to find a steady stream of similar invective from Hillary supporters aimed at Obama, daily, without ceasing. Of course there’s over the top remarks from both sides, but no, it’s not accurate to say “both sides do it.”
I remember when Kerry was being swift boated, and some PBS commenter said “I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle.” It didn’t then and it doesn’t now. It’s just an attempt to appear even handed in a situation that’s anything but.
I recognize that the basest kinds of attacks are discouraged here, which is great. But this isn’t the only site I visit, and I suspect that goes for most of the commenters here. The constant exposure to this kind of hatred does desensitize people, and to me the prime evidence of that is that people don’t see the difference in the way the two candidates are characterized. Just like people can’t understand how Hillary might have no interest in defending a pastor who made extremely pointed, personal remarks about her and her husband.
Forget what commentors on sites say. For a couple of months, I thought the comments to Clinton unfair and argued such. However, when I saw and heard her, not blog commentors, making disasterous, self-serving statements, I see no way that her continued campaign cannot be damaging to the Democratic Party, and even her own reputation.
Since Texas and Ohio, I don’t see how Hillary Clinton’s statements can be interpreted to demonstrate other than the following:
1. It is more important that I be elected President than that a Democratic candidate defeat the Republican candidate.
2. If I cannot be elected in 2008, it is most important that the Democratic candidate be defeated and a one-term Republican be elected so that I can run in 2012.
3. If I can’t be elected, I don’t care if the Democratic Party is destroyed and the nation suffers under continued radical Republican policies for a indefinite period.
What else her unnecessary endorsements of McCain’s credentials and denial of Obama’s mean? How could she ever convincingly endorse Obama? What will African-American Democrats do if they feel that the campaign of so promising a candidate as Obama was unfairly overturned by the Democratic Party? I supported the Clintons against all criticism since 1992, but cannot help but feel I have been betrayed by an egotism that I would not have believed.
You’re comment might make sense if indeed Hillary’s only hope was to render Obama unelectable. She’s campaigning against him, for God’s sake. She’s not “rendering him unelectable.” The stuff she has been saying is relatively benign, but so many Obama supporters are so over the top about her “tactics” that they are believing their own propaganda. I really have a hard time with the rationale that Hillary is somehow obligated to drop out because when someone campaigns against Obama it renders him unelectable. I haven’t heard anyone from the Obama side complaining when he referred to her as a divisive candidate who will do anything to win. And he’s been saying that stuff for months. And when Obama continually insists that Hillary’s unelectable, or whenhe brings up the ridiculous “as far as I know” stuff, or accuses her of planting the photo with Drudge, that’s OK. But when the Clinton campaign tells the supers (in private conversation, not on the stump) that the Wright issue will damage Obama in the GE, that’s her hatefully playing the race card and smearing Obama. (I swear, if I hear an Obama supporter use the term “smear” one more time I’m going to explode.) I can’t see how any reasonable observer of politics can say that the impact of the Wright stuff on Obama in the fall is so outrageous that it can’t even be discussed. This is politics, not a support group. Most Democrats agree that the vast majority of the muck thrown at the Clintons in the 90s was unfair, but it doesn’t stop Obama supporters from mentioning it as affecting her electability. I don’t happen to agree with that, but I’m not about to accuse Obama’s people of endorsing those charges. I recognize that they’re mentioning it as part of the political calculus of the campaign.
While I respect your opinion when you suggest that both sides do not do ‘it’, I hope you will be open to the possibility that the experience of others might be different.
You, yourself have stated, quite uncategorically, that there are no ‘absolutes’, yet, it seems to me that is precisely what you are postulating.
Perhaps I misunderstand?
At this time, I favor Obama over Clinton. I am trying, however, to be impartial (as much as one may be ;~)) in my obsevations and as honest as I am able in my interpretation of those observations. I have revealled my
‘predjudice’ that you may be better able to put my comments in ‘context’.
Would you be willing to divulge your preference, should you have one?
Well, I’ll take your word that you see it that way, but I sincerely don’t. As you suggested, and I admitted, I thought blog comments were unfair to Clinton and I rationalized apparent mistatements by both Bill and Hillary Clinton. That was until I heard her endorse the qualfications of the Republican opponent, explicitly and implicitly, on several occasions. What can that mean, other than that she believes the public should vote for John McCain, if they can’t vote for her? How could any candidate try harder to make their oponent unelectible. As I said, she made it where the Party could never totally unify behind him, because she could never convincingly endorse him? So she could not have mean the things she previously said about a unified party, nevermind the good sportsmanship thing for which she was praised. The most severe thing I ever saw Obama say about her was his unenthusiastic, “You’re likable enough, Hillary,” remark. At the time, I was critical of him for it. Now, I understand it.
Currently, it appears there is no way she can beat Obama on the elected delegate count and unlikely she could beat him in the popular vote. Therefore, her major hope appears to be to convince superdelegates to vote for her. Such a strategy, even if it worked, would be a pyrrhic victory.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t mean to advocate the superdelegate intervention on behalf of Obama I describe — I was, by way of comparison, asking someone at FDL to make a decision already and endorse one of the two instead of this attempt at evenhandedness.
That said, I don’t like the superdelegates, but I’m an Obama supporter (out of hostility to Clinton’s “liberal interventionism”, i.e., war votes, increasing hostility to the tactics and tenor of her campaign, and growing admiration for Obama’s abilities and intellect), so I actually hope they do intervene in this way. The superdelegates were created by people like Lanny Davis as a hedge against an “unrepresentative” party base (h/t bonkers) so I’ll be glad if what I see as the “establishment” candidate won’t be its beneficiary in the first test case of the system.
I think your comment at #187 is very thoughtful, but where did Wright insult Clinton?
The definition of “the line” is subjective, of course, but here’s where I see the Clinton campaign crossing it:
1. endorsing McCain’s C-in-C credentials to the detriment of Obama and the anti-war majority of the Democratic Party
2. Going to Richard Mellon-Scaife and his rag to resuscitate the Wright issue
3. Bill Clinton going on the Rush Limbaugh show the day of the TX primary, at a time when Limbaugh was urging crossovers
Would you defend any of these, and what, in your opinion, are Obama’s comparable offenses?
Did you learn of this by eavesdropping on their “private conversation”? Or from the NYT? [edited by mod]
This is the definition of “playing the race card”; whether “hatefully” or not is another question. It’s calling attention to a politicians ties to the black community, of which Wright is, it’s my guess, not unrepresentative. Playing the race card is a very successful bid, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s fair to reaffirm people’s prejudices. It’s a free country and we can vote for whatever reasons we want (with me, it’s those pesky wars Clinton votes for). But don’t call it something it’s not.
Obama has never in deed or word during his public career ever been racially divisive or hostile to whites, but according to Clinton, and perhaps you, we need to look real hard at where he comes from and who his friends are. Then we’ll find out he’s mixed up with a lot of the kind of blacks the good white folk of Pennsylvania are “uncomfortable” with.
This argument she’s not “playing the race card” just insults my intelligence after the media this has gotten. Read Obama’s speech if you haven’t already. If the appeals to our better angels don’t move you, then admire it for its sheer political deftness. I don’t know how you can walk away from the past week confirmed in supporting Clinton, when as a response to Wright Obama gave us this speech, while Clinton gave us an interview with Richard Mellon-Scaife.
[Mod Note; Please do not insult fellow commenters. Thank you.]
I’ll try to respond to as many points as possible. First, my preference is for Hillary, although I will vote for Obama if he’s the nominee. And of course others may have a different experience, but I named pretty much all of the most widely read political sites. I have trouble believing that anyone going to any of these sites can’t see that the comments run about 20-1 pro-Obama, and that the vitriol directed toward Hillary is much more severe than that directed toward Obama. I gave specific instances, and asked if anyone can point to a similar level of hate directed toward Obama. If you indeed have a different experience, I’d be interested in hearing about it. Things like calling her “the monster” aren’t isolated. They are constant on places like HuffPo and Kos, in particular. Not to mention “warmonger with blood on her hands,” “Shrillery” anda host of others. What names are Hillary supporters calling Obama?
As for McCain, there’s one instance I can name, the threshold comment, that I’m not happy about. But her first comment,that she is better equipped to match McCain on the experience front, was perfectly acceptable. The Obama campaign has been calling her “divisive” and “unelectable” for months, and trumpeting polls showing how much better he would do against McCain (haven’t heard much of that lately, though.) So she says she’s more electable than Obama, and suddenly she’s a traitor to the party? When asked if Obama had the necessary experience, she said “You’ll have to ask him.” I believe this was an echo of an earlier comment by Obama, when he said she was disengenuous. He was asked what the difference was between disengenuous and dishonest, and he said “You’ll have to ask her.” So apparenly it’s OK for him to call her dishonest, but calling him inexperienced is beyond the pale?
I’m under no illusions that Hillary is perfect, but I don’t choose my candidate based on one comment, or one vote, or one speech in a park. I do find that Hillary supporters tend to be a bit more willing to admit her faults. I’m hard pressed to think of a time when a lot of Obama supporters were critical of something he’s done.
It may be unlikely that Hillary can win the popular vote. It was also unlikely that Obama could succeed when he started out. I happen to like a candidate who will fight. The fact is, we’ve never had a situation like this. When has a candidate with more than 1,000 delegates already in hand dropped out while the primaries were still going on? There are still 10 primaries to go, and neither candidate has the delegates to claim the nomination. To me it is blatant hypocrisy to claim that the supers supporting Hillary would be a perversion of justice, but it’s perfectly acceptable for them to go to Hillary and threaten her so she’ll drop out. Which would be more of a “back room deal?” Face it, when a super supports Hillary he or she is portrayed as a dinosaur pol, but if they support Obama they’re on the side of Truth and Justice.
I’m also a little tired of the mind reading. If we’re not being told what Obama meant, we’re being told what Hillary really thinks. It can’t be that she’s come this far in the campaign, she sees an opportunity to win, and she wants to see it through. No, it has to be that if she can’t win she wants to destroy the party, or even more laughable, she wants to make Obama lose so she can run in 2012. There’s absolutely no evidence for this, of course, except that Obama supporters can’t believe that someone would have the gall to stand in the way of his coronation, and what’s worse, actually criticize him. Does anyone else see the ridiculousness in the argument that she should drop out, because campaigning against Obama “weakens” him?
This campaign has been relatively mild. The reason people think of it as so vicious is because Obama supporters cry “smear” and “dirty politics” every time Hillary opens her mouth. The 3 a.m. ad is a perfect example. I understood Christy’s argument that using fear is a Republican tactic, although I didn’t agree with it. But the ad simply said “The President will have to face crises. Who do you want in charge?” She didn’t say we’d be attacked if Obama was President, and she didn’t say he was incapable of dealing with crisis. She said she was the better candidate. Quick, get the smelling salts. To hear Obama supporters describe it, you’d think she said he was gay.
As for Wright, I’ve typed too many words on my problems with Obama’s speech, and I don’t feel like rehashing them now. I will say that I have no problem with bringing it upm in terms of Obama’s electability. Throwing around charges of racism may provide people with some satisfaction, but the fact remains that people can be offended by Wright’s remarks without being labeled as racists. Obama brought much of the problem on himself by trying to keep Wright under wraps, telling him last year that “You can get kind of rough in the sermons, so what we’ve decided is that it’s best for you not to be out there in public.” It was a political calculation on Obama’s part, so why is it out of bounds for the Clinton campaign to discuss it?
And no, brendanx, Bill Clinton didn’t go on Rush Limbaugh. I try very hard not to make statements of fact without double checking to verify them. I’d recommend you do the same. He appeared on the show of Mark Davis, an Austin radio host (you may recall there was an election in Texas recently.) Later that day, Davis guest hosted for Limbaugh, and replayed the tape of the interview. Please stop repeating stupid rumors.
And finally, Hillary didn’t go to the Pittsburgh Tribune Review “to resuscitate the Wright issue.” It’s the second largest paper in Pittsburgh, the second largest city in the state where she’s campaigning. Are you suggesting she should have refused to meet with the paper so as not make Obama look bad? She tried defending him on 60 Minutes, and the Obama camp basically spit in her face for it.
Besides, when the Wright story first broke, Obama did a newspaper interview to condemn Wright’s remarks. What paper was that? Hint: it’s in Pittsburgh.
type text here
This is why preview functions are helpful. here’s the link:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/…..57231.html
crap i posted the wrong comment from the last thread, so the last one won’t make much sense.
here’s the correct one from the last thread—
i haven’t read all comments yet–
the hillary article at 7– and comments pertaining to it–
i have previously posted here that i was a member of a baptist bible study group for a long long time, i am not baptist, nowhere near it.
i was invited, i went, i learned, they learned. i felt honored to be welcomed and be able to learn what and why they believe what they do…and i was not mistaken for one of ’them’ they knew who i am and what i believe….this church is the center for conservatism here, missionaries and all. people brought up by missionaries, republicans, all walks of life. most conservative church here besides the little pentacostal church and a few little spin-off ’baptist’ churches…….
most churches are methodist here.
to say that she is like fellow group attendees, like sam brownback, is just simply BULLSHIT. drawing conclusions.
i went to this baptist church every single week, that makes me a baptist and believer and follower of their doctrines and politics???????????
c’mon, we’re supposed to not meet and hang with anyone but people who believe every single thing we do?
same as obama did? /s
i don’t think so.
Reply
Thank you ChrisO. Just when I despair that FDL is turning into DKos, there are some like you who don’t view everything Manichean with Hillary as the embodiment of pure evil.
and one last comment about the ’group’ from the last thread.
sander0—i haven’t caught up on all comments, your questions about why someone would join a group so dissimilar from them, but one is, for the same reason that people join book clubs.
to get a different point of view.
Well, there’s no help for it. We see things through a different prism. Statements by blog commentors can’t attributed to either candidate. Neither can MSM representations. Comments made by campaign staffers have to be judged individually as to whether or not they actually represented a campaign tactic. I did’nt hold Hillary or Bill Clinton, whom I voted for twice, responsible for any of the questionable statements until after Texas and Ohio. I don’t see any way around the statements made by Hillary Clinton herself that, in essence, John McCain is more qualified to be President than Barack Obama. There is no way back from the statement to God and everyone that, if I’m not nominated, John McCain will be the best President. Okay, that’s it from me.
Would you say the 3AM ad was a positive portrayal of Hillary or an attack on Obama? I read it as an attack, something that damages Obama should he be the candidate in the general. I have a real concern many white people will not vote for Obama no matter how well he speaks. If speaking well were a criteria, we’d never have George Bush.
And what do you think of her describing herself coming under sniper fire? Do you believe she actually forgot the truth and misspoke? The thing that gets me is her poor judgment. How could she have thought she’d get away with it? Is she so grandiose she thinks rules don’t apply to her? And if Obama and his partisans point this out are they engaging in a smear?
chris at 188–exactly.
please check out my attempt at Separation of Church and Hate , , ,
search:
SeparationofChurchandHate
on Yahoogroups (I’d give ya the link but it will not work after 5 tries)
Republican Religious Extremists* have high-jacked the Christian Religion and America . The liberal teachings of Jesus have been perverted into a conservative partisan political tool of the Republican Party . “They” MUST be stopped to defend democracy in America ! Religion is fine as long as “You” don’t force it on me .
Free Will anyone ?
REMEMBER;
Jesus was NOT :
Pro-Rich ,
Pro-Homophobia , OR…
ONLY Pro-American !
* BibleBushiters
—————
I’m the only one currently active(couple-a hand-fulls of regular readers) but I hope some a ya-all join and enliven our debate and action alerts .
She embellished her experience and got caught. Just like when Obama embellished how his parents first met during the Selma civil rights actions, or took undue credit for certain legislation, or first denied hearing inflammatory comments from the Rev. Wright. Of course, in Hillary’s case the media and progressive bloggers jumped down her throat in a manner that neither McCain or Obama were dumped on for similar transgressions. If this is an example of poor judgment on her part, what does Obama’s 20 year association with a radical Afrocentric church indicate? I have come to believe that not only does a woman have to be twice as good as a man to be considered comparable, but any mistake on her part gets amplified twice as much as that by a man. I have no problem if Obama and his partisans use this politically to beat up on Hillary, but then don’t complain when she and her supporters return the favor when an opening presents itself.