Basrah Update Midday March 25 2008 -- There is very heavy fighting in the city. The streets are almost empty of civilians and civilian traffic. All our correspondents in the city say there are many columns of smoke in the city and the sounds of explosions and machine gun fire. One local source in the teaching hospital says that many have been wounded. He said also that they are having to turn away wounded for treatment because there are too many to treat. He says he has been told that it is the same in other hospitals”
It’s easy to be confused by news from Iraq especially given our own media’s refusal to provide coverage beyond Petreaus propaganda. Today’s reports of fighting in Basra are not the easiest to follow but let’s look at several facts that suggest what may really be going on.
Since August 2007, Moqtada al Sadr has established a cease fire and held back his forces from attacks but he has never denied their right to self defense. This cease fire is the primary cause of decreased casualties in Iraq. At the same time, Green Zone and US forces have continued attacks on al Sadr’s forces and Sadrist neighborhoods as noted in al Sadr’s recent statement:
Despite the ceasefire, Mahdi Army members are being subject to raids by the "occupiers" and Iraqi forces which are "destroying Iraqi houses," Sadr's statement said.
"Iraqis in general and Mahdi members in particular are paying the price."
Al Sadr has been one of the strongest players working for a nationalist coalition, opposed to the occupation and uniting Iraqis across sectarian lines. In fact, al Sadr’s sermons and announcements have often reminded Iraqis of their national unity and the role of the occupation forces in creating and enflaming sectarian strife.
An important meeting and initial agreement was announced in Arabic press yesterday:
organized by the Sadr organization, [the meeting] included 300 tribal leaders, Shia and Sunni, from throughout Iraq…Among the main points in the final statement of the meeting: A demand for scheduled withdrawal of the occupation forces from Iraq; and a statement to the effect the foreign forces are responsible for the internal divisions that have plagued Iraq since the invasion.
The first Iraqi tribal conference wound up its proceedings on Sunday, in Kadhamiya, Baghdad, with the issuance of a final statement that demanded a schedule for the withdrawal of foreign forces from Iraq, and commitment to the return of those removed from their homes, and compensation for their damages.
The participants committed to the rejection of terror in all its forms, and to the combating of the AlQaeda organization throughout Iraq, in addition to serious work toward the return of those displaced...
With upcoming provincial elections likely to show serious losses for both Maliki’s Dahwa party and Hakim’s SIIC and growing support for Mahdi associated representatives, it’s not surprising that Cheney and our occupation allies were deep in talks last week – nor is it surprising that we now see a dramatic push by green zone forces on Basra where Sadrist forces had been gaining power where Hakim's SIIC used to have considerable power.
With Maliki personally overseeing a green zone force of 15,000 or more, supported by air strikes (US or British is not known), a major attack has been launched in Basra and the results so far are chaos, growing civilian casualties, and curfews have now been imposed on six provinces.
At the same time US forces have surrounded Sadr City:
Eyewitnesses said that U.S. forces surrounded Sadr city on Tuesday's afternoon, closed all city's inlets, and replaced Iraqi forces inside the city.
Eyewitnesses also said that sounds of discontinuous gunfire and explosions are heard at different neighborhoods of the city.
Power went off at some parts of Sadr city, while people there rushed to buy foodstuff preparing for security deterioration.
One of the eyewitnesses told VOI "U.S. forces allowed four firefighting trucks and three ambulances to enter the city."
He added "People are afraid that U.S. forces may conduct wide-scale attacks and raid operations in the city."
Al Sadr's statement's today call for wide spread civil disobedience across Iraq:
"Instructions arrived from the al-Shahid al-Sadr (Martyr Sadr) office in Najaf on Tuesday to give out copies of the Qur'an and olive branches to soldiers at checkpoints in Baghdad and its districts," the spokesman, who asked not to have his name mentioned, told Aswat al-Iraq – Voices of Iraq – (VOI).
Sadrist officials called on Monday for an open-ended civil disobedience, which has already begun in the western Baghdad neighborhoods of al-Shurta, al-Bayya, al-Amil, and al-Risala. A spokesman for the Sadrists in al-Karkh, Mazen al-Saadi, had told VOI on Monday that sit-ins began in some areas in Karkh and would move to other areas in Baghdad's al-Rasafa as well as other provinces if the demands to release the detained Sadrists and have an official apology from the government on these arrests and raids were not met. "There would be other options if the government failed to respond to these demands," said Saadi, not determining the nature of these "options."
"Sunni Muslims took part in the protest in solidarity with the Sadrists, whose neighborhoods are targets for detentions and raids," a local resident of al-Aamil neighborhood said.
Back to Cheney’s visit – he reported gained agreement from al Hakim for provincial elections, elections in which Hakim’s SIIC is expected to do poorly given popular support for al Sadr. As Badger writes today:
These are two of the famous Bush "benchmarks": Oil and Gas Law, and progress toward provincial elections. In the case of Barzani and the Oil law, the quid pro quo was obvious. But what was the quid pro quo for the Supreme Council? One possible--I would say obvious--answer now suggests itself: In exchange for the Supreme Council dropping its obstruction of the Provincial Powers law, the US would tolerate, and provide air-support for, a campaign against the Sadrists in the Basra region.
The gains for George and Dick are clear - weaken or distract those pesky nationalist forces, justify continued troop surge and presence, gain "approval" of US benchmarks (though not popular approval) and keep control of Iraqi oil in the hands of men like Hakim.
Dick visits Iraq and cuts a deal - and the people of Iraq once again pay the price.
Big H/T to Badger at Missing Links
Video from Channel 4
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Siun!
We are SO kicking ass.
Excuse me while I retch.
Yeah, it’s true. McCain’s got nothing.
great post, siun.
isn’t Basra also the oil center of Iraq?
It’s the only port.
Afternoon gang.
Yep Wobblybits - Basra is one of the key oil centers - and used to be controlled by Hakim’s folks (his sons were known as the leaders of big oil smuggling)
Rachel was just reporting that the sadrists are skirmishing with the mehdi army…
so if sadirist capture and hold Basra, they could wreak some havic on the oil front, or?
I have a bad feeling that the civil disobedience will be met with gunfire. If the US troops themselves don’t start shooting, Blackwater’s goons will. And then the whole thing goes to hell. It doesn’t make me feel any better that we’ll be indisputably proven right about the surge not working…
I was just reading on how Basra is a huge oil transport center. It certainly would halt exports
well that’s even more confusing since the Sadrists are the Mehdi Army …
There was a break away group of Mehdi followers who were trouble late last year but they were not followers of Sadr (though they were portrayed as Sadrists in western media)
So, the shit is hitting the fan in Basra so we are surrounding Sadr City?
One of the reasons the Sadrists are protesting is that there have been repeated attacks on their followers by US troops including the seizure of a mosque and shooting of 4 civilians … I’ll dig out that link and post it shortly.
There’s so much going on, it’s hard to fit it all in.
Get the oil
Pass the buck
Strategery
more here
Bush standard procedure. If Al Qaeda staged an attack in the U.S. tomorrow, he’d be trying to invade Canada.
Watch what happens when they kill Sadr. His days are numbered.
From Badger on Sunday (and I cannot recommend Badger’s work strongly enough)
I am uncomforted.
Sorry, As I was typing that I was thinking that, isn’t there a Badr brigade or some such…?
basra is the only iraqi port,right? So, the easy access for shipping to/from Iraq that doesn’t cross any borders. I believe there is/was a pipeline for oil leading elsewhere (Kuwait?). Have those pipelines been totally destroyed? So, oil in trucks to Basra is pretty much the only way to get oil into the international mkt?
I’d also assume that Basra is important for incoming goods. Anything else goes thru a potential chokepoint across, e.g., the syrian border.
No surprise that everyone’s excited about basra …
The Badr Brigade is the militia arm of al Hakim and the SIIC … they are our big allies, and are the base of the main death squads begun under the El Salvador option chosen by Bremer and gang.
Guess we could pipe it through Turkey huh?
Sadrits aren’t only skirmishing the ING…
“U.S. and Iraqi troops backed by helicopters fought Shiite militiamen in Baghdad’s Sadr City district after the local office of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s Dawa Party came under attack, the U.S. said. Residents of the area reported intermittent explosions and gunfire in the area late Tuesday.
An American soldier was killed in fighting Tuesday afternoon in Baghdad, the U.S. military said. No further details were released, and it was unclear whether Shiite militiamen were responsible.”
Well, DUH?! Unless they are gonna try and claim that these folks are Al-Qaida in Iraq. We’ve gotten involved in taking sides in a Civil War…a situation that Sadr so kindly deferred until we provoked his organization repeatedly.
So much for the “lull” in casualties and the “success of the surge”…which politically was never gonna be a success.
yeah ;)
Why whack him … al Sadr is actually trying to unite Iraqis across the sectarian lines we’ve splintered. While no saint (IMHO) he’s the popular choice in Iraq.
thanks for the link. Ah yes, this was the demonstration for the jailing of some of their members that was reported by some media outlets, right?
As I pointed out earlier today, the talk of “Iraqi security forces” is code for former Badr Brigades (the SCIRI/ISCI/SIIC militia) wearing government uniforms. The US military is trying to portray this as militia (Mahdi Army) vs. government but it is really more militia on militia violence. And I also agree that Hakim’s group would probably lose badly in anything like a fair election. As for Dawa, it has never had much of a popular base.
It’s no coincidence that the acronym SNAFU originated in the American military. BushCo only perfected the concept.
Very important to note that this is not a sectarian battle but nationalists against occupation supporters. We are on one side of the civil war we started .
Well, apparently they’re assailing one another… Isn’t it great that the Shi’a are fighting one another…! 8-(
Actually, they’ve perfected FUBAR even more than SNAFU
The Madhi Army are Sadrists…it’s the Badr Brigades that are associated with Hakim’s Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI).
Iraq’s Militia Groups
The new player is this Fadilil group that appears to be a local Basran group. Anyone know much about them?
I’d argue that we and our allies are trying to take out Sadr … chaos helps us (permanent bases and permanent security plan as Bush desires), oil control by US friendly forces (Hakim - though how US friendly is tricky) and quash those nationalists who might unite Iraq against the occupation.
iraq oil pipeline info:
http://www.iags.org/iraqpipelinewatch.htm
good map at the bottom
looks like pipelines into Turkey, Syria, down to Basra, and then to Kuwait
FUBAR, SNAFU, IOKIYAR.
This is worse than Hillary misremembering her combat experience because it means that more Americans will be sacrificed by the Republics.
McCain was being fooled. If there was an MSM, they would read those words back to McCain and not take a spin response from him.
BTW I don’t think that the Badr Brigades were ever as big a deal in death squads as the JAM and other groups loosely affiliated with it were.
well thanks to us, there is a civil war with many sides.
Should have, now, too late.
FUBAR, SNAFU, IOKIYAR…BUSHED
I don’t see how we can argue that *we* should assasinate leaders chosen by sovereign peoples … it’s illegal amongst other things.
OT, but having the antarctic ice shield fragment could be a really really big deal — stalling gulfstream, messing up climate in big ways beyond just drowning sea-level cities.
wapo linky
good picture here
When we invaded there was no chosen leader.
Yup , Bingo, Correct!!! We are retarded!!!! Ignore the legitimate recognized moral leader of an oppressed people!!! Have to say if he is whacked it is the beginning of the escalation wanted by international oil whores to justify presence. You are as correct Siun as this administration is a criminal colonial enterprise! Great call!!! How many times in the past has our failure to recognize legitimate leaders in conflicts lead to forewarned, negative results……………….
There has been Shia on Shia action for a year or two. It has largely gone unreported because it was overshadowed by the Sunni insurgency and Shia on American and vice versa activity.
OK, we should have killed him, we should have arrested him instead of letting him go.
Especially leaders who generously refrain from shooting people until we provoke them repeatedly.
I’m confused.
I said should HAVE, damn.
Most civil wars are multi-sided. Ours was the exception, not the rule.
agreed
a lesson we never learn …
You are wrong!
i know that, but most americans don’t. they see shiite and sunni and not that there are radical sunni (AQ) and secular sunnis etc.
Great post on a tragic topic, Siun. Thanks.
Who isn’t? I still don’t understand why the Shias are fighting each other. If I ever understand all that goes on over there, I will be certifiable.
Yea, well that’s the first time in 58 years! :)
Al Sadr built his popular support by taking care of humanitarian needs of everyday Iraqis and opposing the occupation. We created the situation where his support could grow by not just invading but then instituting a truly brutal occupation (see Winter Soldier).
And we must remember that Iraq actually belongs to the Iraqis.
Can you imagine what would’ve happened if we’d installed Chalabi as the PM as the neocons had wanted…
Except that Iraq is a fiction. . .right?
of course we created the vaccum that made this possible (look how long they have gone without electricity, water, etc.) no wonder he has amassed support
Serious question - what do you think would have happened and how would it be different from now?
Not according to the Iraqis.
I think it would’ve hastened the disintegration of Iraq…
Here’s a report on the Shi’a militia conflict in the Basra region. It seems that Fadhila is an autonomous splinter faction of Sadrists that wants full autonomy from Baghdad.
Basra’s Militia Conflicts
The fact that the government is getting involved down there, while at the same time targeting the Mahdi Army in Adr City has the real risk of getting the US involved much like they did in Karbala a few years back. That situation resulted in the hardest fighting that any US troops confronted in Iraq, according to the Marines involved there. In that week the US took the highest combat casualties of anytime in the occupation.
That was against just a few hundred Mahdi Army fighters…and off their home “turf”. Taking them on in Sadr City will be very intense and bloody street fighting in communities that are devoted to Sadr.
The problem with being a real nationalist in Iraq from the Bush-Cheney point of view is that for some crazy reason these people don’t want to do what we tell them to do and want instead to call the shots on their oil resources. Inexplicable.
And then there is John McCain…who can’t tell the difference between the the Sunni Salafist Al Qaida, and Shiites…
Of course, neither did George Bush.
Let’s all go on an energy consumption strike. No driving when you can. No heating or AC when you can. Just candles at night, no video. No minor daily comfort is worth all these awful consequences.
Cheney is a harbinger of death.
I knew that he was up to no good in his latest tour of shame.
Sick warmongers.
-G
sad truth,speaks volumes about ignorance
Aloha, Hmmm! Did you watch the game at 3AM? ;-)
‘…al Sadr is actually trying to unite Iraqis across the sectarian lines we’ve splintered …’
Siun, that’s my take, as well. Rational behavior would suggest that we acknowledge this fact and ALL of its implications.
“Stupid” and “delusional” are two adjectives that should never have to be used in the same sentence with “president.”
I grieve for the women in Iraq who now must live under the veil or close thereto.
O/T? Or not? Cheney-esque, at any rate. New post at www.chris-floyd.com. Here’s a quote:
WTF IS GOING ON????? DOESN’T ANYBODY NOTICE???????
Oh, shit.
Aloha, CT! Probably not, as the only sport I watch is Grand Sumo. Excellent tournament in Osaka ending last Saturday night. Did you go watch the lava? The Halemaumau vent is turning pretty interesting!
1,792 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Raven and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Wooooh there Brother Raven, yer gettin’ all tangled up in some shit that should be real easy. Let’s take a look at this whole thing from the perspective of Vietnam. 1.) we should never have interfered in the internal politics of a sovereign country (1958 Ike pulls support of elections) 2.)we should never have fomented civil war among a people tryin’ to restore sovereignty from colonial status 3.) we should never have sent troops into a country that hadn’t threatened or attacked us Now where, dear friend, does Iraq differentiate itself from 1960’s Vietnam?
We should never have sent one single American soldier to Iraq…period. And,therefore, there is absolutely no justification for any of our actions beyond that point…and certainly no justification for assassinating leaders. Our presence in that country is illegal period and anythin’ we do there jest compounds our criminality.
Don’t get all tangled up again here in this Iraq business like we got fucked up over ‘Nam…jest because we got troops there doesn’t justify any action short of gettin’ them out.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, NO MORE DEATH AND NO MORE FEAR!!
Drive by …
It is illegal
Google executive order 12333 and prohibiting assassinations
I know. O/T.
Do Not Tell Me that Hillary Clinton “Misspoke” about sniper fire, Joe Sestak and other Hillary surrogates and Hillary.
She flat out bald-faced LIED. It’s a test of character. And she has failed.
First, it is helpful to understand that Iraqis are (mostly) Arabs, but Persians are not (although SW Iran is predominantly Arab in the low-lying plains between the Iraqi border and the mountains.)
Second, the Iraqi Shi’a consider that their holy sites and mullahs outrank those in Iran.
Third, Moqtada al Sadr is based solidly in Iraq. The Shi’a Badr Organization, however, has strong ties to Iran (isn’t it funny that they’re our buddies?) I think they’re using us against al Sadr because it is in Iran’s interests to prevent Iraqi Shi’a from becoming too strong and united.
Watch the Badr Organization. At a certain moment of their chosing, they are capable of turning on a dime on us in a monumental double-cross. But they will choose their moment carefully, and will not be distracted by bright shiny objects.
The largest beneficiary of U.S. bumbling in the Middle East for the last 7 years has been Iran. In terms of statecraft, they are centuries if not millenia ahead of us. Iraq used to be their most bitter enemy. They never succeeded in destroying Iraq’s army, but we did it for them. When Saddam was dictator, they had no power base in Iraq. Now they have the Badr Organization in strategic positions around the country. They are playing us for the fool.
Bob in HI
I hate to be so harsh, but I think you’re right. I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t just have a slip of the tongue about whether I’d ever been shot at.
Thanks for saying that, Siun.
Why is that so hard for people to grasp?
Oh goody! There’s a hornets nest, let’s kick it down the road.
I’m a wee bit tired of, ‘Kill ‘em all and let Allah sort ‘em out.’
I don’t think it becomes us. Unless we do it, of course.
This may be silly, but I think the day fast approaches when we’d do better to make friends than enemies. ‘Un-American’, I know.
Lots of reasons…Sadr represents the Shiite that stayed in Iraq after the first Gulf War, these were the folks that rose up after being promised by Bush Sr. that we would support their revolution. Sadr himself follows a strain of Shiism that is less tied to Iranian centrism and is far more local than other Iraqi Shi’a that fled Hussein’s regime. His followers are also much younger and far more untrustworthy of US intentions.
The SCIRI and the Badr Brigades were groups trained in Iran, starting in the war with Iraq back in the early 1980’s. Many of the leadership were exiled then or in the period immediately after the first Gulf War. Most situated in Iraq.
The Sadrists thus feel that they have a home-grown leadership of people who hacked it out during the tough times. They suspect that the SCIRI Ayatollahs and militias have a few too many strings attached to Iran.
The Sadrists and the Jaish al-Mahdi are the same thing - the Jaish are the military wing of the Sadrist trend.
Siun thanks for linking to our midday report from members in Basrah - the one quoted who works in the Hospital has been trapped there for the past two days. - Too dangerous to go try to go home, he lives less than 5 minutes walk away from it.
Exactly
“misspoke”?
How do you forget the details about getting shot at (or not) especially if your child is with you. And why do you take your child into harms way (judgment)
On Hardball just now, wasn’t it reported that Hillary had told the sniper story on more than one occasion?
They’ve closed down the the observation point that was on the lip of Halemaumau after the hiccup that spewed the rocks… She’s been busy of late…! Occasionally, I’ll watch a basho, I’ve lost interest since Akebono had his top-notch sheared off…! 8-)
I wouldn’t know. I don’t have cable/satellite/whatever.
Top story on Yahoo news right now:
• Heavy Shiite fighting in Iraq threatens U.S. security gains
This tragic reality therapy for Cheny Bush fantasies will be very difficult to ignore, even in the dishonest US corporate media world.
1,792 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Prairie Sunshine:
“She flat out bald-faced lied. It’s a test of character and she has failed.”
You go Sister Sunshine!!! In my mind, Mrs. Clinton-McCain stands exposed before God and everyone…her continued presense in the race says only one thing: she wants the Democratic Party to lose. Her election would be a bigger disaster for our country and the world than McCrazy bein’ elected with solid Democratic majorities in Congress.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE DON’T OWE HER NUTHIN’!!
starting point for sniper stories: http://blog.washingtonpost.com.....inton.html
Aloha, Du! I’d meant the Badr Brigade… Thanks for popping by! *g*
Gawd, where is this all going????
They’re gonna blame Iran and attack Iran???
(Sorry all for the OT colloquy) Ah but now there’s Asashoryu v. Hakuho, the dueling Mongolian yokozunas! Great drama there.
…But I would give it up for a national energy consumption strike.
For at least a year, I’ve thought that Sadr is positioning himself for the time when Americans withdraw from Iraq– as they must, eventually, Cheney’s imperial ambitions notwithstanding. All his moves are based on positioning himself for the future, not for the present. If we weren’t so f*%king blind, we’d be collaborating with him instead of the Badr Organization. But Noooooo, he won’t do as he’s told, so he can’t be trusted.
Bob in HI
Not quite right Siun. You’re talking about Fadhila (Virtue party) they are Sadrists.
All:
It is very important that you understand something. Sadrist does not repeat not most emphatically NOT mean a follower of Muqtada al Sadr. It means somebody who agrees with the teachings of his father. Yes that means they often follow Muqtada - but it doesn’t necessarily follow that being a Sadrist means you follow Muqtada automatically.
yoohoo, congress, where are you?
Waiting for IKEA to deliver “the table”
Good lord Du … thats awful. And the hospitals cannot aid all the wounded - is that correct. I read one report of a young child injured who could not be treated because it was impossible to get her to a hospital.
thanks for the additional info
This seems like her “Muskie weeping” moment.
Good on you. That is the truth ’bout Viet Nam. Our true interests lay with the peoples’ desire for freedom. Freedom from colonial status. We had no business supporting the French. We betrayed our own history and heritage.
After WWII, some OSS officers knew that and said that. They were murdered for their efforts and for speaking the truth.
Vietnam would never have gone to the Communists for help had we helped them.
I’m told that Ho Chi Minh carried a copy of the Declaration of Independence in his pocket and had great respect for America. He and his followers worked with the OSS throughout the war and we betrayed the people of Nam to suck up to the French, beginning in 1953, we supplied them weaponry and ‘expertise’. That is ‘our’ history, like it or not…
Got it, thanks
As expected this administration is sowing the cause for yet another major cock-up and blow-back. Sadr is an Arab Shia of respected lineage. I’m not sure of Hakim’s ethnic identity, but he also hails from a respected clerical lineage and is certainly closer to the Iranian Shia clergy than Sadr is. The grand ayatollah Sistani is of Iranian descent and Hakim is aligned with him. The Iranians are taking over Shia Iraq and only Sadr stands in the way; so we take him out to facilitate the Iranians. Bush/Cheney have greatly enhanced Iranian strategic depth into the Middle East through their blunders. Their “allies” among the Shia, Hakim, Maliki, have very close ties to Iran and this is why Ahmadinejad could walk the streets in Baghdad without a flak jacket or fear of IEDs. Bush/Cheney couldn’t damage U.S. interests any more if they had actually been Iranian “Manchurian” candidates.
Yeppers!!!
Thanks for the correction Du on the Fadhila … I was thinking of the reports of 200 “fighters” which I always found extremely confusing.
Meanwhile, the stream of refugees (both internal and external) continues to grow.
On Jan 22, 2008, UNHCR spokesperson William Spindler offered a snapshot of the disaster that is the life of Iraqi refugees. Emphasis added below:
I’m guessing they won’t voluntarily be returning any time soon — which could make the end of the cease fire even more deadly on the Iraqi side, since so many of the medical professionals have fled.
(I’d appreciate it if folks who feel compelled to discuss the presidentials, only do so if they include a link to a substantive piece of info … they are not the only story today)
“Misspoke” would suggest that she confused circumstances. But can anyone tell me where Hillary has ever had to avoid sniper fire in the manner she claimed. This is either delusional ( a la Reagans thinking he saw combat in WW2, when he only experienced that war on celluloid) or was an effort to build up her “toughness”.
But the fact that she details so many things about the situation seems very odd to me…
The claim about being told to sit on flak-jackets on the flight in to protect their asses; the running/ducking out to vehicles; the lack of a greeting ceremony. None of this apparently happened in Tuszla according to witnesses. This is gonna be around a bit…mainly because the media will want to interview Sinbad and Cheryl Croiw about their recollections…and poor Chelsea has already had to deflect questions about it…which may take her off the campaign circuity for a while.
Much too logical. Bush must keep it confusing so that Americans won’t understand not the Iraqis for that matter.
Yes they started to turn away wounded early in the day - they’re overwhelmed with wounded and also ambulances have come under fire.
That tactic was used in the fighting in Karbala as well.
While the latest Clinton story is a political blackeye, embellishing a story a little is a lot different from not knowing the difference between Sunni al Qaeda and Shia Iran. It is interesting that the I have heard more about the Clinton story in the MSM than the much more serious gaffe of McCain.
Can you say “Tet”?
When is Betrayus due to testify?
Du … have you heard any reports from Baghdad outside of the Aswat report that Sadr City is surrounded by US forces? with the various curfews (which usually also means MNF raids on Iraqi homes, etc) it feels like we’re watching the start of a major explosion?
Not sure of date - I heard April but have the impression it’s later?
here we go:
But spokeswoman Dana Perino noted: “I don’t expect him to say anything prior to the testimony that Petraeus and Crocker will provide” to Congress on April 8 and 9.
http://afp.google.com/article/.....W4QvrjvMYQ
So how do Bush-Cheney spin events in Basra with the line that the “surge” has been successful? Oh right,
You know McCain can’t speak accurately without a tele-prompter in front of him.
I got all that, never said anything different.
I originally thought Petraeus and Crocker would be testfying on April 7th, but the last I heard it will be April 8-9.
First week of April.
So you are saying he is more competent than George Bush? *g*
Mahalo, it should be interesting if this downward spiral is in full swing when he’s facing congress…!
All:
Quick sketch - Al-Sadr, is a nationalist, he believes strongly in a united Irak. He has excellent relations with the AMSI which means in case you didn’t know that he has excellent relations with what the American army insist on calling the “Sunni” resistance.
Don’t forget that at time when he was literally fighting for his life that Jaish al-Mahdi fighters went to Fallujah to fight (and die) alongside the allegedly “Sunni” resistance to warcrime that was the American rape of Fallujah.
You can bet that the AMSI wing of the “Sunni” resistance haven’t forgotten it.
You also need not to forget that Jaish al-Mahdi fighters have been been streaming north for more than two years to al-Mosul and Kerkuk to prevent them being split off from Irak and made part of Kurdistan.
And yet the American army which is well aware of that fact says the all the resistance in Mosul and Kirkuk is “Al Qaeda” who hate the Sadrists guts and never miss an opportunity to kill them.
Sure, why not use the Shia civil strife for a pretext to attack Iran? Sadr is a committed Iraqi nationalist, and is also reaching out to reconcile other Sunni and Shia nationalists. So, obviously he is in cahoots with Al Qaeda and Iran.
Watch for miserable liar, confused dunderhead, or eminent foreign policy expert (take your pick) McCain to very conveniently get Sadr confused with both Al Qaeda and Iran very soon at a newsclip near you.
Yes
Kagan and crew already did….they were saying that the surge was in the northern half of Iraq…that’s how they’ll explain it, and they’ll say that it’s happening because the Brits redeployed….and they’ll say that’s why the US has to stay there for one million years…
To be kept in mind too with the Petraeus hearings is that the first set of dates for an attack on Iran (most likely by Israel) also occurs at this time: April 5-6.
1,792 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
“The Iranians are taking over Shia Iraq and only Sadr stands in the way, so we take him out to facilitate the Iranians.”
Thank you so much SueN…the American oil oligarchy has been in bed with the Iranians so long that even massive doses of penicillin can’t save ‘em…this whole thing has been cookin’ since Iran-Contra.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, GET OUR TROOPS OUT OF THERE AND LET THE IRANIANS HAVE BLACKWATER!!
Siun…This from AP suggests that US ground forces are supporting Iraqi National Guard IN Sadr City.
US and Iraqi Forces Battle Militias in Iraq
In addition the fact that there is helicopter support indicates US Air support in these battles. The ING has no helicopter gun-ships.
See, you go people lecturing me on the Nam now too!
OTOH Sadr and his minions were behind a lot of the ethnic cleansing in Baghdad that killed thousands of Sunnis and displaced hundreds of thousands more.
The Iraqis are doing the fighting in Basra while the British are standing down. If they fail and need the american or british soldiers to come in then it is reason for Petreas and anyone else in the administration to say we can’t leave because the Iraqis are not ready yet.
All of which makes the decision by Maliki - who has been talking up his attack on Mosul - to shift and attack Basra pretty … interesting. He must figure he has the upper hand with so many fighters out of the way in Mosul?
There are curfews in four governorates,
Wasit
Babil
Diwaniyah
Karbala
as well as al-Basrah, which was subject to curfews since Monday.
And the US has been asking for a new British surge around Basra.
As I keep saying I think that it is a mistake to designate any side in this as the Iraqi side. Mostly it is just one set of militias against another.
wow. thanks for the info.
Du, do you think the Turks will be further emboldened to strike against the peshmerga, with all this fighting?
Citizen Raven:
I’m sorry if I misunderestimated or un-understanded yer position. I’m real tired of all the gnashin’ of teeth and splittin’ of hairs while our kidz are gettin’ their asses shot off and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dyin’ as a result of our criminal actions. It is simple, no matter how fucked up the situation is we have no business bein’ there and the sooner we get out the better for everyone…even though things are gunna get a whole lot worse.
Dawa are about to get creamed in the elections. We doubt they can even hold Nasiriyah. And its not looking too good for SIIC either. The numbers of fighters streaming north won’t make an electoral difference. But they do make a military one.
WRT to Hugh above. Not as easy as that. I personally know three Christian families and 5 Sunni families who fled to Sadr city because they knew they’d be protected there.
Oh, but he is the elected leader of a sovereign government and the favorite of HIS people.
Sorry for my generalization.
What kind of leader would Sadr be? Back to burqas for the Iraqi women?
Yup.
And the Turkmen have formed a militia to protect themselves around Touz Khourmatou and in al-Mosul.
My understanding - with the caveat that there are no clean hands as a friend would say - is that the Badr Brigades were the most active death squads - these are the ones we established/encouraged under Bremer and the Salvador option.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/FUL506A.html
and http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/68.....mode/1098/
Whom do you think will be the winners of the elections? Will the Sunni boycott again?
All I said was that we should have whacked him in the beginning. That doesn’t mean I think we should have been there in the first place. Whether Iraq is really a country, you tell me. I know there was no such thing as North and South Vietnam and it’s my understanding that Iraq is made up of three separate people, Sunni, Shia and Kurd.
hear hear!
I agree about the not as easy as that but that works both ways. Sadr shows some outreach to Sunnis but it doesn’t stop him and his followers to ethnically cleanse in Baghdad.
US victory….bomb, pillage, torture, rape, murder, and shock & awe Iraq into submission and subordination.
Yes, but Baghdad is the base of Sadr’s power. Ethnic cleansing and death squad activities could not have gone on and been so successful in Baghdad without him and his followers being involved in a major way.
siun=here is a link to the iraq energy data, statistics and analysis for oil, gas, electricity and coal.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Iraq/Oil.html
seems they want to put a refinery in basra by 2010, scroll down to the charts, it’s on there.
and no oil output listed for basra on the other chart, are they only on the receiving end of pipelines?
i was looking for my link that has a pipeline map for the region, can’t find it, i’m on dial-up and tubes are taking freaking forever tonight…….
i used to look at the map when the war first started, also had one of measured reserves in the region, too……
but i thought you might find the one i did find interesting…….
if i find the other maps, i’ll be back.
I’m not suggesting anyone is pure - but we keep ignoring our own involvement in setting off the ethnic cleansing, our arming of the Ministry of Interior forces (not controlled by Sadr) who lead the death squads, and our enabling of such activity through walling in neighborhoods, etc. Remember this all launched while Kerik and his buddies were there working for Bremer and according to Life in the Imperial City, vanishing with armed groups at night.
We instigated the sectarian stress which has led to ethnic cleansing because it worked to our advantage - just as the coalition meeting I reference in the post which Sadr’s people organized with Sunni participation threatens our ability to control.
Here’s a dept of energy oil map for Iraq:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/se.....bigpic.htm
siun at 140—i thought the british only pulled out to the airport/base……….few miles from basra, not out of iraq…….
Raven if you mean moi, then I guess that you had it comin’.
I listen to you, and respect what you did in Nam.
I had already, as a result of my studies come to the conclusion by 1965, bolstered by the information shared by a very high ranking naval officer,who called his son and me into his office and said,’What you have been hearing about the ‘incident’ in the Gulf of Tonkin is nothing but lies, many of us are angry as hell and I don’t want either of you to die for a bunch of goddamned lies,’ that our true interests lie with the Vietnamese people, as human beings.
I refused to go and help kill those people. I paid a price for that decision, Raven, and lost too many friends in the Nam to think that only them what wore the uniform have any right to say anything. I faced prison for my choice and censure in my profession, Raven.
I am not a pacifist but I sure as hell am convinced that organized mayhem sucks. Period.
Maybe you are a wee tad touchy about this topic and so am I, but brother, and I mean that most sincerely because I value your opinion, insight and humor, your experience shaped you just as mine shaped me.
No lecture, just a different ‘perspective’.
I honor yours …
They were drawing down troops - and yes, had pulled out to a base near the airport … but have stopped the actual removal of British forces and who knows what’s next. So far, the British govt seems unwilling to play surge with us but we’ll see.
If you want to read a dedicated Sadrist on human rights I suggest you read this by Mohammed Ibn Laith:
Nearly One Million Christians - Most Of Them Now On The Run
You won’t like his open hatred of America but frankly that’s not the issue. The issue is that in Muslim societies the basis for human rights is the Qur’an.
I don’t think you or I would like to live in a Sadrist society and Iraki women have been set back for generations by the American invasion. There IS going to be a lot of oppression.
BUT for example the university in Kufa for example which is Sadrist controlled has a huge proportion of women students.
To put it another way - westerners are going to have to stop thinking in black and white.
Islamist = Anti-woman
Not necessarily true. The typical science student in Iran for another example is female.
Not black and white at all. Lots of oppression being done now and more on the way yes, but we tend not to hear the other stuff.
Finally, and not getting at you personally, but there’s something else Americans are going to have to get used to.
When Americans talk about human rights in Irak. Irakis simply have to look around them.
They can and DO draw the conclusion that when Americans talk about human rights that they’re just using it as an excuse to kick the shit out of more Irakis.
Norske, I’m in total agreement with your comments about the Iraq and Vietnam war, but I’m calling bullshit on this one:
I’m not big on either Clinton or Obama, but seems to me, from where I sit, that both these candidates could stand to get a closer relationship to the “truth”. What can be said about Clinton, in terms of divisiveness and lack of candor, or lying, can also be said about Obama. Let’s stop polarizing this party, and look at these candidates dead on. They are both, far from perfect. But they are what we have. And either would be far better then McCain.
Siun, thank you!
and I always love to hear from Gorillas Guides,
Eureka turned me/us on to them.
Dmac keep an eye on Ben Lando’s blog.
http://iraqoilreport.com/
He really knbows what he’s talking about. Yeah, yeah, I know UPI=moony controlled but he’s still a very good reporter who knows what he writes about and doesn’t shade the truth.
Aw man, I have fucked up so many times on this thread I need to just bag it. There is absolutely agree with every point you and my bro the Flamethrower made. I wasn’t aware enough on the 17th birthday, when I went in, to make any kind of analysis of the situation so I had to wait till I came home to take a stand. That cost me as well but fuck it. I always always respected those who made the decision not to go, especially those who went to jail. As Tim O’ Brien says in “The Things We Carried”, “We were too embarrassed not to kill”.
I salute you and shall shut the fuck up.
Shit I can;t even type
There is absolutely
I absolutely
Du… thanks for the Lando link
thanks siun and gg, thanks for the links.
siun at 162yes, siun, last i heard, they hadn’t gone anywhere, and weren’t going to, no orders to pull out…….haven’t heard anything different from that……..
that the ’drawing down’ was simply a parsing of words. they went to the base at the airport, ’drawing down’ from basra, but never left the area, and there were no plans for them to withdraw from the country……..heard maybe a few/100? went home. that was it.
Tell that to the Badr brigade. Not saying that the Mahdi militia in particular districts are innocent nobody is. Cleanse or be cleansed is the situation that your government and your army deliberately created and continue to create as an act of deliberate and cynical barbarism.
I would really love to see a reasoned justification from of your statement:
When the FACT is that most of it was done by your country’s allies with the connivance of your country’s army.
I don’t want you to ’shut the fuck up’ man, I only wanted to share my experience with you because I respect you, learn from you, and dammit, take this how you will, I cherish you and your honesty as well as the courage which informs your positions, even when I disagree.
I salute you.
What’s funny is that there is nothing in your analysis that I disagree with. You are right, I was reacting to being told what I already knew.
thanks for making that clearer than I could
your father often reminds me that “no one’s hands are clean” but it’s clear whose hands are dirtiest.
As we often do on Sunday nights, I’d like to suggest donations to Red Crescent - their resources will be even more stretched as these attacks continue and people cannot even reach hospitals.
You can donate via this link.
Raven my bitch is with those who didn’t do ‘jack shit’, as they say, with regard to Viet Nam, have lied about it and didn’t learn anything, how could they?
Nam keeps being played over and over.
Enough have died for lies, and I’m disgusted that it still goes on.
I know you feel the same way
scanning comments i saw questions about petreus testifying–
senator hagel=retiring in jan/09
was on diane rehm today and said he had a two-hour talk with fallon………wouldn’t comment on what was said, so, i’ll be paying attention to what hagel says and does……
Oh my, Keith Olbermann does quite a mini rant on Cheney and Iraq
Have you read Christian Appy’s Patriots
gg at 163
that last part-
i ’get’ what you’re saying, but i don’t want to get used to it, and hopefully by the time i do, it will have changed.
that is my wish.
Mine also. dmac
A HUGE part of what we do is a dialogue programme we’ve been doing that for more than 20 years -
You might want to read some of the dialogues between Mohammed and an American called Mike Kinman on our site.
The most recently opened one is here:
Mike & Mohammed - August 22 2007
The discussions between Mike and Mohammed are very powerful and helpful for understanding. Mike is a very neat minister who has been so open to learning and does very good work himself.
Haven’t read it, but I shall. And with true pleasure, Raven, thank you.
Happened to have just been gifted with a piece of plastic for books.
So soon, on the top of, my ‘looks for THE book list’ …
Try “Remembering Heavens Face” by John Balaban. He was a CO who went to the delta to work with badly injured kids. Great book by a great man.
Cheney is probably dissatisfied with oil retreating from over $110 so what best option does he have to drive it to $150 than to destroy Iraq’s oil distribution system permanently.
Ironically, it’s these high oil prices that will drive us to conserve and come up with alternatives. It will bring a little vomit to my throat every time I have to credit Cheney with helping (albeit that his aim was not this) the conservation movement.
gg at 181–
thanks, i’ll check it out.
take care, gg.
Unfortunately, the Sunni’s are rising up again, too, around Falluja in the Anbar province. Evidently we haven’t paid them as we promised for their shooting Al Qaeda and not shooting us. That means a war on two fronts - Anbar and Basra. If the Kurds and Turks get going again, that will be three fronts. As George said, “That was the plan. What happened?”