The US death toll in Iraq reached 4000 Sunday, 25 in the last two weeks, when four more soldiers were killed by bombs in Baghdad.
The grim milestone came at a time when attacks against the U.S. military are ebbing and officials have claimed significant progress against Iraq's deadly insurgency and sectarian violence. It was reached about 10 p.m. on a day when more than 60 Iraqis were killed and dozens injured in attacks in Baghdad and north of the capital.
And there are disturbing signs that the overall level of violence in Iraq may again be rising. First were reports that General Petraeus might favor a "pause" in further withdrawals of US troops once troop levels got down to about 140,000 this summer. Perhaps he was just being prudent by giving US commanders time to assure themselves that the progress they had achieved from the surge would continue even as the US drew down its forces.
Then, despite warnings from General Casey, Secretary Gates and others in the Pentagon concerned about the health and readiness of the Army if withdrawals don't continue, Admiral Fallon felt compelled to resign, reportedly because of disagreements with Petreaus about the pause.
Petreaus has been especially cautious in not claiming a lasting effect from the surge he commanded. If there were signs of lasting effect, it's hard to imagine the White House would not be trumpeting them. Instead the White House is reported likely to agree this week to a pause, even though it's months away from taking effect. It is a sign the WH is concerned, and there are other signs that matters are worse than they're admitting.
There have been reports, though not widely circulated, that some of the 60-90,000 Sunnis the US has been paying to fight al Qaeda and not fight the US have threated to turn against the Americans or at least go "on strike," both because many are not being paid as promised and because there has been virtually no progress in gaining their acceptance by the Shia-dominated central government. And it hasn't helped that there have been several "mistake" US attacks on the Sunnis, with dozens of them killed. Mistakes happen in an active war zone, but the frequency of these incidents suggests there is still extensive combat in areas that are supposed to be pacified and under the local Sunni's control.
It appears violence levels have begun to rise again, after having fallen to 2005 levels and remaining more or less stable for a few months. Now we are seeing major attacks every few days with dozens killed each time. And several of the attacks yesterday, in which at least 60 were killed, were centered in the heart of Baghdad, with repeated mortar shellings falling in or near the supposedly "safe" Green Zone.
For months, the Administration and John McCain have been telling us that the surge was a great success, that its purpose in bringing relative security to Baghdad in particular had been achieved, even as US forces continued to pursue insurgents into areas outside the capital. But today's news makes clear that Baghdad can quickly revert to a war zone.
It is not just that random "extremists" may be lobbing a few mortars at the Green Zone, acts that are difficult for even a large occupying Army to prevent completely. The Times story reveals there were repeated episodes, and that the night before the mortar attacks, US aircraft were bombing surrounding neighborhoods, though the story is vague about the connection. But the level of combat occurring in and around Baghdad is not a good sign.
John McCain has based his campaign on convincing Americans the surge was the right idea and has succeeded, and that some ill-defined victory is at hand. As Attaturk's post noted, the surge's neocon architects tell us all is well. But these continuing attacks suggest the surge has not even succeeded in securing the capital or driving insurgents into remote areas. It is discouraging news, no matter what it's political consequences.
Update: General Petraeus tells reporters that Iran is behind the recent rocket attacks on the Green Zone. (h/t TPM)
Update II: In response to a question from ABC about the 4000 deaths, VP Cheney responds with "they volunteered," and that the President bears the heaviest burden.
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4000 dead and counting!!!
Good morning Scarecrow. Sorry to epu from prior thread.
I have been trying to find out how many funerals our mighty leader has attended but don’t seem to be able to find a record of any attended. Is this a state secret or something?
…and if we stay there another 100 years, as McCain promised, then, obviously, dead toll will climb…
I think what the DOD is doing is criminal and not resisting and deserting is troubling.
Soldiers need to resist and stop acting like mindless bots and buy into the meme that they can’t speak and think with a uniform on.
Rubbish.
none. If he had there would have been pics and they would have been all over the toobs. After all, he only comes out of his cave for photo ops.
and this doesn’t make a good photo op.
I worked with a group in cambridge shipping war resisters to Canada. I find no such group around Harvard Square these days. At the risk of pissing Raven off I will say that the draft makes the difference.
And it’s possible that a grieving parent, brother, sister, spouse or child might say something mean to him. Can’t let that happen…
Next from Senator Flaky:
The violence is up because the bad guys wanna elect a Democrat.
All of which goes to show that he does not give a sweet shit about anyone except himself.
By the way with PA elections coming what is the mood/preferences among people you know
how friggin oobsurd
the attacks where the troops are have decined, that’s it
this miserable occupation has got to stop and we cannot possibly allow the administration to claim some kind, any kind of success
‘the surge failed, the occupation cannot possibly succeed and we need to get our children home
our states need to reclaim their assets and call the national guard back the the staes where they came, their equiptment must be returned as well and this government must reimburse the states for all the assets that have been squanderred, all the infrastructure that has been neglected
and pelosi is a complicent war criminal
Thanks for emphasizing this, Scarecrow. Petreaus is a completely political animal. If there were any real evidence of an accomplishment coming from his sacred surge, there would be 24/7 soundbites of him patting himself on the back over it and measuring for drapes in the Vice President’s office.
Has anyone bothered to dig out the checklist of surge objectives and see where we stand now? I would not be at all surprised if it turns out that we actually have gone backwards with respect to the list. Now would be a very good time to dig out the list, since we are at a Friedman unit from Petraeus’ dog and pony show last September.
what family of a lost soldier would want the kind of security detail the prexel would need at their son’s or daughter’s funeral? It would be the source of more nightmares that they probably already have enough of.
Do you just say shit designed to piss people off for fun or what?
it’s supposed to be the vice president’s job with the president making rare appearances
but this vice president takes glee in these deaths
bunches of folks in my congregation going out and registering voters for O. Haven’t heard much Hillary talk lately. But then again, the folks who come to my church are mostly pretty hard core libruls. We donated our old sofa to the O hq in town. Booman is giving reports on the ground here. He’s practically a neighbor—lives about 10-15 miles away.
I worked with a group in cambridge shipping war resisters to Canada. I find no such group around Harvard Square these days. At the risk of pissing Raven off I will say that the draft makes the difference.
Why would that piss me off?
I see to remember (possibly incorrectly) that when I had suggested, some time ago, that a draft would stop this damn invasion in a hurry you were adamant that a draft was not a good thing. If I am mistaken it would not be unusual.
I thought “not on my watch” Fallon “resigned” because Bush had decided to invade Iran and he needed Fallon out of the way. Or that Bush had signed the orders to invade Iran and Fallon resigned to not have to follow those orders.
I see to remember (possibly incorrectly) that when I had suggested, some time ago, that a draft would stop this damn invasion in a hurry you were adamant that a draft was not a good thing. If I am mistaken it would not be unusual.
reply
Not me, I’m all for universal service (military or civilian), have been for years.
Wow. Thanks for the link I am thrilled by the voter registration drives all over America this election cycle it surely can only bode well for the future.
Marion in Savannah,
(Marion’s my name too, btw)
If you’ve still got some left, hot chocolate sounds like a wonderful idea.
Me too.
What stands between McBush/McChaney/McCrazy and efforts by them to maybe double the surge? They need to keep kicking that ‘war can’ past the election. Who would dare try to stop them?…surely not our elected representitives.
The press has reported that the President occasionally meets privately with families of deceased soldiers. No media coverage is permitted.
There’s always LOTS! Help yourself…
Here’s what pisses me off
Go up and tell a grunt about a fuckin meme, jesus.
Yep that could piss off a person. What is interesting is just how many of the brass are pissed off and saying so. The generals are dropping like flies in this administration.
G’morning. Wretched news, Scarecrow. The administration’s gift of war that keeps on giving. At the TBA conference in DC last week, we were urged to press our newspapers — all of them, the good, bad, ugly — to resume (or begin) publishing Iraq war deaths on the front page Every Day. And to list names of those who died in the previous 24 hours. This seems like something FDLers could do, i.e., put pressure on the press. More than once. Keep pushing for this.
If I may edit
Pick one way of spelling ‘Petraeus’ and stick with it! And you kids get offa my lawn!
OK. BETRAYUS
” . . . of course, the violence is down because of the surge.”
NPR Cooz This AM
4,000 dead means 8000 parents with a crushing loss, and 16,000 grandparents robbed.
With nearly 30,000 wounded, that’s 60,000 parents dealing with the impact of these horrid decisions by the deciderer-in-chief. 120,000 grandparents dealing with nightmares.
We can’t forget the 80,000-hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead and over 4 million displaced.
War crimes trials for many in this administration can not come soon enough.
The names of those killed in Iraq are released after families are notified. PBS News Hour shows their names, home towns and pictures each week; ABC also lists them on Sunday’s “This Week” show. Crooks and Liars than reposts the ABC segment, usually on Monday.
SanderO: the remark was not welcome here. Do not pursue it.
I wonder what George Bush & Dick Cheney will be doing today to celebrate this monumental number in dead US soldiers? Let me guess….they’ll be wearing their red party hats that match their red armbands? Oh probably.
Reference for last post:
It’s not just the generals who are leaving.
Thanks for that info. I don’t watch television, so I don’t see that. But the print press (in the same industry that is watching its readership numbers plummet and wonders why — could it be lack of relevance?) rarely and barely pays attention to the Iraq dead, with the exception of snippets about home-towners who’ve perished in George’s war. It’s the newspaper equivalent of Tivo — skip the parts that annoy you and read about Britney.
The idea that it would be a good thing for the military to start rebelling against civilian authority, regardless of who that authority is, leads to disaster. Don’t worry about 4th amendment infractions, etc., those are small potatoes. A mutinous military is the end of democracy. We change things in elections.
Yes. Thanks for the link. One of the points author Linda Bilmes (The Three Billion Dollar War, with Joe Stiglitz) noted on Book Salon yesterday was the loss of experienced captains — forcing the army to raise reenlistment bonuses to as high as $150,000. In the meantime, the Army has had to lower enlistment standards for new recruits to maintain quotas.
From the linked article.
My question what damn political survival? The chimpinchief is outa here in 302 days, the goopers are dead in the water, people are registering to vote Democratic in droves and elected goopers are running out of Congress as though the place were on fire.
This war is going to go on forever or until our nation’s finances are broken beyond repair, whichever comes first. I have been spending the last six months reading up on the history of interminable wars, first the Thirty Years War (1618-48, or to 1659 if you include the Spanish continuation) and now the Hundred Years War (1337-1453). Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. In both cases as now, no party had the resources to force a decisive victory. The fighting was interrupted by truces (like the one we more or less have now in Iraq) while various participants temporarily changed sides or built up their strength for the next round. It just went on and on, and the people who paid were the ordinary people — just like in Iraq.
We have gotten out of the habit of knowing what war is really like because the First and Second World War’s and the American Civil War were decisive and had basically predictable outcomes. That wasn’t the case earlier, when they went on and on and on until the parties were exhausted and a new generation arrived to pick up the pieces. The die was cast when the United States did not put a half million feet on the ground at the start. And of course, that was militarily impossible. Which is to say, doomed from the start, independently of the asinine assumptions that motivated it in the first place.
Murderous Bushco motherfuckers.
But it’s “not like Vietnam.”
Bullshit.
Unless they mean Vietnam and Cambodia, and not just Vietnam.
He really doesn’t care. His emotional range is from A-B. Remember this is the guy who as a kid got his kicks from blowing up frogs with firecrackers. Telling us that a woman who holds down 3 jobs to make it is a fine example of the American spirit shows how absolutely clueless he is about people who struggle.
True, but McCain is holding even or slightly ahead of the two Dem Presidential candidates. We need to recognize that for the Dems to win the White House, they have to beat the US media, which has an unshakeable view that John McCain is competent and trustworth when it comes to foreign affairs.
That fact that he either doesn’t know who the factions are in Iraq, or is deliberately conflating al Queda with Iran, that his rhetoric evokes Christian crusades against Islam and that he seeks out religious zealots who openly advocate war against Islam, or that he undermines the peace effort in Israel/Palestine with his one-sided remarks and his ignorance of behind the scenes efforts to get Hamas’ cooperation — these are shrugged off as no big deal. The media has blinded itself and will not see.
As Iraq Toll Hits 4000 — Bush Sees a “Comma”
I think you’re right about the long wars. And remember, we’re not paying yet for ours; it’s all on the credit card, while we lower taxes for the wealthiest. Meanwhile, we’re still doing “emergency” appropriations five years in, and no one knows where the money is going.
Is it really a blind media or one that is taking orders from the corpos that own them? I’m finding it hard to believe that so many people are so stupid or so gullible. It may well be that the owners of GE et al have decided that McSame is what they want and they will do all they can to make it happen. Which they are doing.
Just wondering.
Well, in general I do agree with you. And I can’t see how it could be expected or desired of active enlisted military to protest. And, at the same time, I also seem to vaguely remember that one of the things that contributed to the ending of the Vietnam War was the fragging of officers. Granted, I don’t know very much about this and I am also not recommending this as a solution, just pointing out that it’s happened in the past.
I took that to mean that they are deliberately complicit and “taking orders from the corpos that own them”.
I know about the supposed fragging in Vietnam. There may have been some instances, but I’ve never seen any documentation of cases tried. I don’t think fragging is either recommended or had any effect on bringing the Vietnam War to an end. If you remember, there was a significant fragging incident at the beginning of this war, before the troops even left Kuwait. It didn’t have any effect on anything.
Yes, and then there are the Crusades, on and off from 1095 to 1272.
Remember that Cheney does not care what Americans think. Neither do many elected officials.
That includes the military.
Remember also that according to the most recent polls most Americans worry more about the economy than anything else– including the war(s).
oh and doncha just love the way they are enticing hs grads with the promise of money so they can buy a house???
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=18710386
Now, how many more lies will they use to entice people to join? ‘Hey, here’s a bunch of money that you can use to invest (in our destroyed economy!)’
In Tomas Young’s own words:
http://www.indybay.org/newsite.....871911.php
lies upon lies.
R.I.P. all those who have perished, soldiers and the occupied peoples.
4000 commas
I mean to say that they don’t care what the military thinks.
;(
Texas A&M historian Terry Anderson adds, “During the years of ‘69 down to ‘73 we have incidents of fragging–that is shooting or hand grenading your NCO or officer who orders you out into the field. The U.S. Army itself does not know exactly how many . . .officers were murdered, but they know of at least 600 cases, and they have another 1400 who died mysteriously.”
http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/War/fragging.htm
It’s a mix. To be sure, Fox News anchors seem to take orders and are selected for their propensity to tow the line. The three networks seem to be suffering from a lack of strong professional leadership. There are no giants left. At CNN, Wolf is a nice man who does his best, but he’s surrounded by Lou Dobbs, and the habit of balancing someone who might know what they’re talking about with someone who’s selling an ideological line is hurting them. On PBS, they think having Nir Rosen vs Fred Kagan is balance.
And the media’s giving McCain as pass. The latter is a serious problem and could allow McCain to win.
Good morning everyone -
{{{{{Moment of silence for the 4000}}}}}
Thank you Scarecrow. This is like a nightmare that just keeps getting worse and worse.
OT -
MSNBC reports that Hillary Clinton wants Alan Greenspan and RIchard Rubin to lead a panel to find a solution to the foreclosure crisis.
Aren’t those the guys who caused the foreclosure crisis?
that immediately calls to mind creating a simple engaging fact sheet to be passed out door-to-door by the dem campaign. god, i wish this dem primary was over so we could get on with the business of fighting mccain and the media.
Greenspan? Good grief. He encourage Americans to go buy homes with the mortgages that are now the problem. And he ignored the need to regulate the financial giants who were performing banking functions, but not being regulated as banks.
Paul Krugman has a column on this today, and he mention’s Rubin as favoring regulation, though when I saw Rubin on PBS recently, he seemed ambiguous.
Republics will not despair. There are still ZERO members of their royal family serving in Bush’s war.
So you think that caused us to pull out of Vietnam? If the fragging incidents were provable, you would have about 600 more lifers in Leavenworth, since there were no firing squad executions as a result of Vietnam. Anyway, I think history shows the overthrow of civil government and establishment of military dictatorships is the most frequent result of military mutiny agains civil authority.
Anyone who advocates the rebellion of single or groups of soldiers in protest of the war needs to go out and do something to get themselves thrown in prison for a long period of time before espousing that action for others.
Wasn’t Rubin the guy who sat Bill Clinton down after he was inaugurated and convinced him to follow Greenspan’s economic policies? Clinton had run a very progressive campaign in 1992 and after his little meeting with Rubin he embraced Greeenspan and governed as a
RepublicanDLC centrist for the rest of his two terms.I say that because I believe that soldiers are expoited.
I believe that they are brainwashed to follow commands and not think
I believe that they are unlawfully forbid from speaking about politics.
I believe this is wrong and dangerous.
A democracy that needs soldiers needs to have those who are “with the program.” and there is no coercion or mind control.
Perfect metaphor. 4000 dead but CNN now showing the Prez launching this year’s Easter egg roll. A good time was had by all.
What “remark”?
I served 11 years, I’m not advocating anything of the sort! I am stating that the claim that no fragging occurred is pollyannish, to say the least. It is just as in my branch, making the claim that no one ever “fell” over the side with a bit of help from some disgruntled crew members. There was a rather notorious incident where a young officer was float tested late one night and retrieved by a Russian intelligence gathering “trawler” trailing the formation. He was returned via the Russian Embassy in Hong Kong about a week later. He may have been the first recovered, but I am sure he was not the first to be helped off the ship.
Good morning from L.A. Scarecrow, excellent post.
My biggest fear for this election, which is in the process of being realized- the MSM have already decided that John McCain is the next President & will succeed in electing him.
No matter what he says or does or what comes out about him, about the war, the economy etc., etc., it will be hidden or glossed over or explained away repeatedly until the coverups become generally accepted truth.
My recurring nightmare: St. John is already chosen by MSM as next Pres., & the voters who watch tv for their news will go along w/it. He is elected, & we are left watching our hopes for foreign & domestic policy change disappear in our hands.
Yes. It’s a “Developing Story”, no less. Gag.
Speaking of “100 years of War” John McCain, (okay terrible segway because this involve FISA), Holy Joe is at it again. I got this from DFA:
Joe Lieberman is bashing Democrats… again.
DFA is taking on the right-wing $2 million smear campaign funded by the so-called “Defense of Democracies.”
We’re fighting back against the swiftboat attacks targeting 15 freshman Democrats who stood up to President Bush on FISA and telecom immunity.
But who are the people behind this shady Republican front group? Their “non-partisan” board reads like a who’s who of the worst of the worst: Neo-conservatives Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, and Charles Krauthammer, extremist Newt Gingrich, former Sen. Zell Miller, and none other than Senator Joe Lieberman.
On Tuesday, we asked 1,000 members to take the lead and contribute $100 each to protect Democrats with the backbone to stand up to President Bush. . .
At one time, “Defense of Democracies” actually had a bipartisan advisory board which included Democrats Donna Brazille, Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Elliot Engel. Not surprisingly, all three stepped down from their positions as advisors once the misleading attack ads started running.
Here is what Donna Brazille said about Defense of Democracies:
“I strongly condemn their misleading and reckless ad campaign. The organization is using fear mongering for political purposes…” She added that due to the influence of its right-wing funding, Defense of Democracies has “morphed into a radical right wing organization that is doing the dirty work for the Bush administration and Congressional Republicans.”
Her statement was clear: “I no longer wish to be affiliated with such a group and have asked them to remove my name from the Board.”
www.DemocracyforAmerica.com/DavidBeatsGoliath
Re your OT:
Yes.
This has been another edition of Atrios’ simple answers to simple questions.
Hmmm, have you ever served in the armed forces?
Did you see me saying it never happened? I said I doubted it had any significant effect on the U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam. I think there is a misunderstanding by people who have never been in the military about the ability, effectiveness, and desirability of people serving to revolt. I see it in complaints about generals who only criticise policy after retiring. I hope I’m not hearing anyone advocate fragging, that is murder of some poor NCO or 2nd Lieutenant, now.
It is not just that random “extremists” may be lobbing a few mortars at the Green Zone, acts that are difficult for even a large occupying Army to prevent completely. The Times story reveals there were repeated episodes, and that the night before the mortar attacks, US aircraft were bombing surrounding neighborhoods, though the story is vague about the connection. But the level of combat occurring in and around Baghdad is not a good sign.
The military is bombing Baghdad and its suburbs? Barbaric.
Here’s a picture from the Easter egg roll…
Hillary’s suggested blue ribbon panel (Greenspan and Rubin) is like getting Rummy and, oh, Tommy Franks together to talk about lessons learned in Iraq. They’ll admit to some “errors”, but no fundamental mistakes in their approach to what became a disaster.
that must have been taken before the easter poo-flinging event
In honor of 4000 fallen, the American Press Korps is allowing it to happen all again. Per Glenn Greenwald:
How do we pay for our daily bread as well as the current mess, how do we avoid allowing our leaders intentionally to walk into another, much larger political, moral and financial maelstrom with Iran? Intelligence and candor would be a good start.
John McCain’s likely contribution to that effort (and that of his 66 current and former lobbyists who work for his campaign, some for “free”)? Not much:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03.....ref=slogin
Where’s Tula? This is the response I got from Holy Joe for signing her petition:
Thank you for contacting me to express your concerns about the Air Force’s selection of Northrop Grumman as the supplier of the military’s next aerial refueling tanker. I share your concerns about this serious matter, and I welcome the opportunity to respond.
I am very disappointed that the team of Boeing and Pratt and Whitney was not selected to provide our military with the next generation of aerial refueling tankers. I believe Boeing is the world leader in manufacturing large aircraft and that Pratt and the terrific Connecticut workers make the best engines in the world (yes sir, and how will you answer to our CT workers?). While getting this important aircraft into the hands of the war fighter as soon as possible is of great importance, we must ensure that the selection was fair and fully compliant with all laws governing government procurements.
As you may know, on March 11, 2008, the Boeing Company formally protested the Air Force’s selection of Northrop Grumman as the supplier of the military’s next aerial refueling tanker. The U.S. Government Accountability Office will investigate the selection process and inform Congress of its findings within 100 days of this protest. While its recommendations are not binding (No of course not), I take them very seriously and plan to respond to any identified deficiency (I doubt the Holy Man will take any recommendations seriously that aren’t approved by his Dark Lord and Master.)
As a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, please be assured that I will track this matter closely.(Bullsh*t!) We must ensure that our military remains on the vanguard of technology and that we safeguard our defense industrial base (But only if McCain and Bush say so).
I think Hillary’s idea seems reasonable.
I am particularly curious as to why Rubin is being pummeled. He was an outstanding Secretary of the Treasury.
I thought this might be useful:
September 7, 2004 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 1,000 (538 days from the beginning of the invasion on March 19, 2003)
October 25, 2005 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 2,000 (413 days)
December 31, 2006 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 3,000 (432 days)
March 23, 2008 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 4,000 (448 days)
What is important to note here is that the surge was announced on January 10, 2007 so almost 1,000 Americans have died since then or a quarter of the total.
I know it is taboo to say it but these soldiers, all of them, died for nothing. Or rather they died for a lie. They died because of the stupidity and greed of the leaders they trusted and who betrayed that trust. They died because the media were bought and far more willing to report noble deaths than ignoble motives. They died because of the cowardice of Democrats who were more interested in saving their careers than in saving the troops. They died because we ordinary Americans did not do enough, did not shout loud enough, did not demonstrate enough against a corrupt, bankrupt, and masturbatory Beltway that cares for nothing but its own. So I should correct myself. They did not die for nothing. They died for less than nothing.
Thanks for the Greenwald link. Glenn is spot on, as always.
it is true.
I am actually working on planting as many poppies as I can for memorial day. Obnoxious New England tradition, but good for antiwar demonstration I think. Don’t have Flanders poppies, so I will be planting Oriental red poppies to mark the fallen. Don’t think I will be able to get in 4,000 plus the six figures representing civilians.
I have not and would not. I don’t believe in war.
Just so ya know, the prez feels bad about the war dead:
Hello, Rev!
Q - are the talking heads stupid or just taking orders from their corpo bosses - A - Stupid. The Corpo bosses got rid of the smart ones years ago. ie, Robert Parry of Newsweek, now ConsortiumNews.com.
Re Bush and the lady with 3 jobs - i think bush knew exactly where she was going when she said she had 3 jobs and purposely cut her off and flipped her meaning Orwellian-like.
My major concern has been about the number of waivers for what were once issues establishing unsuitability for service. As you know, in their desperation to meet recruiting goals, standards have definitely have compromised.
chain=link…
Picking Greenspan to clean up the mortgage mess has got to be the stupidest idea I ever heard of. This is the kind of inside the box thinking that worries me about Clinton. As I have said many times, she has a tendency to persist in her mistakes, which is what naming Greenspan would be.
Slightly OT
I have been trying to find out the number of “civilian” deaths caused by the american invasion in Afghan but can not find it. Help anyone?
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs -
in watching Moyers on friday night, it was all but unbearable to see the clip of Tomas Young with the Gold Star families - and the looks on their faces as they reached out just to touch the young man
Tomas Young w/ Gold Star Families
“Float tested” Hah. Now that’s a cool story about one being returned.
Figures for the Afghan invasion ( I want edit back)
Hugh, you have just proven the surge a success!
It took only 432 days pre-surge to kill 1000 US Soldiers. Now, after the surge, it takes a full 448 days for 1000 US Soldiers to be killed in Iraq.
That is a FULL 12 days longer for a thousand dead soldiers… …we would have been acknowledging 4000 dead soldiers almost 2 weeks earlier without the surge.
Now don’t you all feel bad for criticizing our dear leaders surge?!?!
I have no argument with that. In fact, I actually believe national service is more beneficial to democracy than an all volunteer force. I ensures that a larger part of the voting public has an actual stake when we decide whether or not to go to war and, over the long run, it makes military coup less likely if a majority of the forces are essentially civilians rather than professional military. I know that is an unpopular opinion, but tend to doubt we would be in Iraq if there were a draft.
I may be naive about military, but those are my beliefs. I know many others feel that there is duty to others in taking up arms.
And I do understand that taking up arms against fascism and so forth may be the only way to stop it. But unless and until all other options have been exhausted I don’t think we should be resorting to violence.
Of course others raise the notion of being prepared and that we don’t have time to build an army once the threat is observed. This, leads to the arms race and the notion that you need to prophylactically have an aggressive defense, like keeping a gun for protection in your home and so forth. I don’t like the escalation that this thinking leads to because innocent people are hurt. To me it’s just wrong headed.
You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist anymore to think that our elections are now largely determined by the Corporate Media. Yes, they definitely want McCain and will do their darndest to get him elected. They do not want anything within a light year’s distance smelling like ‘populism’ — i.e. government for and by the people. Norske has been dead right on this point since the beginning. Once the fairness doctrine went by the wayside, the public airwaves became a medium for private corporate propaganda buffered by the white noise of missing white women. Of course they will not show the bad or true news from Iraq. It doesn’t help the bottom line in the branches of the companies that really matter.
The internet has thrown them for a loop, but we can be sure that they are working on a way to shut us down or marginalize us.
Darn tootin!
More statistics on US casualties — 97 percent of them since Mission Accomplished. From Raw story.
Yep. I didn’t want to taint Scarecrow’s very serious thread with a “poo-flinging” comment, but you’ve directly addressed yet another concern I have about Mrs. C. I just don’t see the value of having the architect of the mess presiding over a “panel”…jeez. There are more than 3 economists in this country. Heck, there are more than 3 Nobel-prize winning ones.
Screwed up.
So, having never served in any capacity, you feel competent and informed enough to criticise a mode of behavior, the rules of which you know little about, and the consequences for disobeying can in some cases be life threatening. Why do you think all these Generals that are resigning wait until they are out of the service before speaking up. You think spending 10 years in Leavenworth for speaking your mind at the wrong time is worth that?
And if you don’t believe you can get 10 years in prison for shooting your mouth off in the wrong place is a joke and not to be believed, you are seriously mistaken. You’d be lucky if it was only 10 years.
I miss edit…
Hmmm… Krugman springs to mind as a possible panelist… Nah, he’s too clear and rational.
Being willing and capable of “picking up a weapon and standing a post” is a rare thing. (None of the current administration’s leadership has done that.) In an imperfect world, having a group willing to do that is essential. How we use that group is the question. Our civilian leadership, including Congressinal figures as well as the draft dodgers in the White House, is where we should address our ire.
An exception would be those few military figures at the very top, whose obedience must be tempered with judgment and a willingness to resign before carrying out illegal or nationally self-destructive orders. Adm. Fallon is no civil libertarian, but he was willing to tell Junior and his ventriloquist that “stupid is as stupid does”. Being told to act like a real boy, move without strings and think with his brain, instead of via his pet cricket, are not things Junior can handle.
Having the right tool is necessary; using it for the right job is important. Our elected mechanics choice has been to use an “Irish screwdriver” (a hammer) for every job. Time to take the family car to another garage.
Funny how when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail…
There’s a reason you can’t find it…
so very few care.
Professor Marc Herold (UNH) was doing some of it, but seems to have ceased.
Good morning Scarecrow, pups!
So, is 4,000 also “just a number” to these criminals?
Now you are in my area of expertise. A ballpeen hammer works best with o’phillips screws and a sledge hammer works best with the old fashioned slots.
Blitzer is an idiot who spouts White House talking points. I have seldom seen someone so dutifully miss the point on a regular basis.
I did hear Guy Ross talking on NPR today about the upcoming Petraeus testimony on Iraq. He starts out saying that troop strength will be reduced to 135,000-140,000 by midsummer. I have no idea where he got the lower of these figures. It’s pretty clear that troop strength will be a lot closer to 140,000 than the lower number. Somehow too he manages not to note that both numbers are higher than pre-surge levels. He mentions that Petraeus and Bush will be talking about long term agreement for stationing troops in Iraq and again fails to say that such an agreement is opposed by the Congress and is likely illegal and unconstitutional. Finally, Ross does not point out that the surge failed in its primary objective of producing a political settlement or that violence in Iraq is on the rise. In other words, just another narcotized reporter regurgitating the CW he has been fed.
I found this UNICEF site. Tell me what jumps out on that table! Children under five, OMG…
I found it through this page which I am still looking into it, but they claim the upper estimate is 6.6 million and have data.
btw– it’s really hard to do body counts from aerial bombardment (rain of terror).
You have to have survivors to report the obliterated…
Aipac blitzer
I heard on PBS over the weekend that the U.S. is paying each militia group in Iraq about $60,000.00 a month to not kill American troops.
The surge is more accurately called The Splurge. Financed by China and India, because the U.S. is broke.
Clever those Bushies. New admin … payments stop …. Iraq re-ignites, media says W knew how to quiet things down, Peace Mongers don’t.
Okay I brought “The War as we saw it” to the gardening shed to read, and forgot about it, then saw it again. I also seem to remember that some of the authors died a little too soon after writing that article.
Excellent debunking of “the surge is working”.
I’d bet that the numbers are higher and the DOD cheats on their accounting.
Morning Scarecrow,
pretty lousy news and there’s no end in sight.
thank you for the article and discussion.
To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, we can’t expect the “journalists” to understand something when their paycheck is dependent on them not understanding. There is little if any objective journalism in the United States. Only spin or propaganda. If it weren’t for a few small publications and the blogs the U.S. public would be as much in the dark as citizens were in the old Soviet Union.
Thank you for the links. Christ we are making a bloody mess.
I know what the rules are.
I think that they are unjust, and undemocratic.
I don’t have to have served in the military to have ideas about what they do and how they do it.
By extension most people in this country would have no right to comment on military matters.
We can’t expect anything more or less from the MSM than the massage they are giving McCain’s image right now.
Our skillful Dem candidate posing the hard questions to McCain in repeated debates (he will try to limit the number of debates, I’m sure, & the questions from moderators will be lousy per usual) & plentiful adverts showing the real McCain on tv are the only way, in my mind, to even attempt to counteract the coronation by MSM of McCain.
(Hope this isn’t a double post- FDL comments just went wonky on me)
Do you even know what the acronym UCMJ means without looking it up on Wikipedia?
And what homes will our heroes return to? A cardboard box under a bridge adn a picket line outside homeless Vet denier Bill O’Really?’s studio? A string of boarded up houses in what was once a well-tended suburban street? Or something better? Who will help determine the available choices?
Mrs. Clinton has just urged that that number include Alan Greenspan, as a member of a new Housing Commission.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/03.....ure-group/
I admit there is a certain logic in having the drunken frat boy clean up his own vomit of pretzels and stale beer. But having him teach Driver’s Ed for MADD? That recommendation should make her supporters rend their garments.
Karnak why are you so condescending. I have head of the uniform code of military justice.
Are you an expert on it or something?
What’s the point?
Working backward through the comments:
I keep trying to point this out but the initial attack on Iran is likely to be carried out by the Israelis. If Iran responds in any way, we will under Cheney’s direction pile on. The most likely dates for such an attack remain April 5-6 and about the same time frame in May. Petraeus is scheduled to testify on April 7, and this in a way gives plausible deniability to our collusion with the Israelis if the attack occurs on either of the April dates.
Pithy reminder. Thanks.
Is this a question for bushy?
I would agree with you there.
We are at fault as a nation and people for not providing an accountable government and commander in chief.
We have to question– all of the elected and selected powerbrokers– one helluva lot more than almost all did after 9/11. We must adhere to our Constitution or amend it!
How come the oath means everything to the military, yet nothing to the elected. How come violations of the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions, etc ad nauseam, are ok now while others are not???
Were the economy not about to tank, and bring even more suffering to the already hard-pressed, Clinton’s notion (regarding Greenspan and Rubin) would deserve rolling-on-the-floor, gasping-for-breath, laughter. Her response, frankly, is ludicrous, and, as you suggest, indicative of a foolishly consistent persistance, a ‘hobgoblin’ as it were.
Obama’s silence, beyond simply calling the occupation of Iraq the ’cause’ of our economic problems, is also NOT reassuring. We need more, Obama.
From McCain we expect nothing and he has delivered
Both, Clinton and Obama must provide MUCH more thoughtful and in-depth considerations.
We are waiting.
Congress had best be paying strict attention as well.
We are waiting.
I’ve asked this before and never gotten an answer, but it seems to me that the Dem candidate(s) could choose which networks and moderators they will agree to have a debate on/with. Why don’t they do this?
Imagine Democracy Now! hosting/moderating a debate. That would be the very best in our imperfect world.
Yes! And so well said!
I second that. Only I am less moderate about Blitzed. He makes me want to throw rotten vegetables at the screen.
The traditional MSM needs to be exposed for the rich shills that they are. Spread the quote far and wide. It’s imperative that the legitimacy of the U.S. MSM be undermined. Only then will an honest 4th Estate be reborn.
Specific orders are important, but less so than where an experienced top commander - raised, trained and prepared to play real chess - knows they will lead.
Presumably, Adm. Fallon refused to follow where Mr. Cheney/Bush intends to lead: war for the many, profit for the few, lies for all.
Oh yes, I am an expert. Anyone who’s ever been in the military is an expert, and that’s no joke. Advocating mutiny and sedition in the military is a chargeable offense, whereas being a civilian you can stand on any street corner in America and criticise the government and its policies with no reprisal whatsoever. You can’t do that if you are an active serving member in the armed forces. It’s against the law, and you can go to jail for it for a long time. Under certain conditions, you can be shot where you stand.
The military is just a tool and it can be misused like any other tool. But don’t blame the tool. You elected the leaders that have misused that tool. The blame for this lays at your feet - at the feet of all of us that were silent or didn’t vote when we should have.
You are looking in the wrong place for the culprit in this little vignette.
OMG, Is Jon Lovitz running Hillary’s campaign now….”Yea, that’s the ticket.”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=It6JN7ALF7Y
It’s not embellishment. It’s flat out lies, and it’s happening a lot.
I’ve seen what you’ve written and agree that’s a likely scenario and time frame. And I feel that Fallon’s resignation is a result of what’s planned for Iran. Regardless of how war with Iran is started, I believe that either he removed himself because he wouldn’t go along with the overall plan or he was removed because he wouldn’t go along with it.
Did you see this? 40 fuel supply tankers for American troops in Afghanistan destroyed yesterday..:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7311064.stm
While you’re waiting, check to see the lists of investment house and banking interest contributions to both Obama and Clinton. I saw it on a link from FDL the other day and don’t remember how I got there, but it was a very high figure and they were both about equal in how much they were receiving. IIRC they were receiving more from this sector than any other. Coincidence? Unlikely.
Upton Sinclair IMO heads the list of most prescient (& quotable) muckraking authors of the 20th century, along w/the writer he’s most often mistaken for, Sinclair Lewis, another great.
If we put together three of Sinclair’s best known quotes, it pretty well describes the times we’re living in:
“Fascism is capitalism plus murder.
In the twilight, it was a vision of power.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
Sinclair put his money where his words were- ran for governor of CA & was a political & social reform activist throughout his life:
“You don’t have to be satisfied with America as you find it. You can change it. I didn’t like the way I found America some sixty years ago, and I’ve been trying to change it ever since.”
- Upton Sinclair
Sander,
I have to agree with Karnak at 137. To go further, it doesn’t involve a lot of brainwashing to serve in the military. You either believe that there is sometimes a need for a military or you don’t. I’ll grant that arguments can be made either way, but ask you to understand that intelligent, thoughtful people can believe that there is such a need and that they have a duty to do it.
Advocating that military personnel violate the law is irritating, because there is nothing preventing civilians who feel that way from trying to capture a recruiting station or some other illegal act that they think would reflect their opposition to the war.
Why not indeed. A question I asked myself every time I’ve watched the primary debates.
Traditional MSM? Wrong….wrong, corporate media correctly defines what blankets the airwaves these days. Not traditional and not mainstream. Maybe it used to be, but no more. It’s the corporate media and it would be better in my opinion to frame it that way. Much more honest.
It may well be that the military must speak with one mouth,
but it is to be fervently hoped that they must not all think with one mind.
The military, most here would agree, I hope, is currently one of the ‘victims’ of the Bush Presidency.
If they are not a ‘victim’ then are they, somehow, complicit in what they have been ‘used’ to do?
Their honor has been besmirched by torture, by deceit and by questions of both large and small moment.
Between Pat Tilman and a certain ‘holding area’ in Cuba, the military, and especially the troops, have been ill-served, poorly led, and diminished in ‘respect’ in the eyes of the world.
LS….fuel tankers destroyed sunday. holy shit. I’m reading Three Cups of Tea and can’t help but think of all the schools that Greg Mortenson has built in the Pakistan mountain area. He embodies everything that is right about humanity in stark contrast to Bush/Cheney and thugs.
Presumably, Adm. Fallon tried hard to influence how this administration used the resources under his command, and resigned a decades-long career only after concluding that when Cheney says, “I don’t care; this is how we’re going to do this,” resignation is the only lawful recourse.
Whether he speaks out publicly, that’s the question. His willingness to do so, or refrain from doing so in exchange for some shift in policy, is now his principal leverage.
It is a big story, but the news in the US isn’t reporting it.
I agree with that. Whether he speaks further or not, I have never seen a case, including Viet Nam, where so many former flag officers, including Chiefs of Staff and commanders of the largest commands in our armed forces, publicly spoke and even campaigned against and adminstration and a policy.
Whether they are in a position to retire or resign, I would be willing to bet that a huge number of military officers, regardless of their political party, are outraged over the damage which has been done to the military forces.
Sorry, that was in response to Earl @148.
No question about it, someone is trying to ‘buy’ them.
The question is; how bought are they?
Pretty much?
Probably…
One, more than the other?
Hmmm…
Probably not …
Where does that leave us?
We are waiting to see.
High hopes?
Are you kidding?
I think you are correct.
I hope more of those officers will speak out.
It would be wise for them to do so.
Can the military tolerate being a ‘victim’?
Can America survive if it does?
Some might argue that the term ‘victim’ may not be applied to the military.
Some will say, ‘The military is there to be used!’
What if that ‘use’ constitutes ‘abuse’?
May a ‘good’ soldier question?
Nuremburg does apply to America, or does it?
Should the military divest its ranks of those four-star officers who would question what they perceive to be ‘bad’ policies?
Even if they undertstand those ‘policies’ to be destructive to the military or American society itself?
Or, is all wisdom reserved for the ‘commander-in-chief’?
Should the military be gung-ho for the ‘Rapture’ if that is what feeble-minded deciderators ‘want’?
Under what circumstance, if any, might the combined military wisdom just say ‘No!’?
I am advocating that the military laws need to be modernized to allow for free expression. I am not advocating mutiny or sedition.
Soldiers should be allowed to resign if they don’t like the war and they have a duty to oppose unlawful commands.
You are missing my point.
I am advocating for a change in the existing system.
I don’t think people who sign on to something with full comprehension of the rules should be able to change them mid way.
But I do think that many people are essentially signing away their rights when they enlist and they shouldn’t do that so they shouldn’t enlist.
If we have to have diminished rights in an army, then it is only for those who can live with less rights.
Unfortunetly, Sander, you’ve apparently touched a ‘third-rail’ with your questions and thoughts.
But we do need to have these discussions.
However uncomfortable and emotional, for our survival may be wrapped up in understanding the role of the military in today’s and tomorrow’s world.
As you suggest, use of the military should be the last resort.
It is of interest to me that when most speak of ‘national service’, they mean ‘military’ service. Were the concept not so limited, and it must not be, a reasonable discussion, which we ultimately must have, would be far easier to engage.
There has always been a recognition, even when service was not voluntary, that military personnel do not have the same rights as citizens. It is the reason there is a UCMJ rather than just applying existing civil law.
A military force simply cannot be effective if it relies on discussion, argument, etc. to arrive at a policy. Additionally, it can’t allow the alternative of quitting, which is available to all civilians. To about the same extent as civilian management, it allows discussion among officers advisability of a tactic or operation. Some commanders seek and listen to opinions more than others. Unfortunately, history seems to suggest that the most effective commanders were the most secretive and least likely to hold a forum before making decisions.
No soldier is required to follow and illegal order. This is the application of our Nuremburg judgements. However, they must be willing to prove in court that the order is illegal. The two helicopter pilots who tried to save people at My Lai are and example.
Sorry, for some reason I keep typing “and” when I mean “an”.
I can understand how an army in order to be effective requires that its soldiers give up some of their rights and freedoms.
However, I believe that quitting SHOULD be permitted and I don’t think that putting someone in jail if they don’t want to fight makes any sense except to intimidate others.
A standing army seems to want to be used and the UMCJ seems to functional but unconstitutional in that it removes the rights of citizens.
Why has there always been a recognition that soldiers should have less rights than civilians? Who decided that?
In an ostensible democracy your question about fewer rights for soldiers ought to receive some more consideration than ‘it has always been thus’.
Once again, Sander, you put your finger on what I think most important!
More power to you, and I appreciate the evident fact that you are not imtimidated by the chorus of those who see things differently.
DWB,
Here is a place to discuss ideas and question some of the assumptions we as a society have made.
If you / we don’t drill back and re examine some of the assumptions we won’t always find the best way to “correct” our mistakes.
If you look at our economic system, it is based on the notion of capitalism and its assumptions. On top of those a whole complex system of transactional relationships and laws have followed on each one presented as a way to improve or correct some minor weakness from before. But these decisions bury deeper and deeper the underlying flaws.
I don’t want to derail this discussion to the economy and capitalism, but I use that as an anology when we discuss our military.
We really need to re examine the whole raison d’tre for the military and how a military solves or address the problems it is intended to.
For example, we all believe that we should protect our selves and our homes (property). This has recently been perverted into protecting our “way of life” and justifies wars of aggression to secure our strategic interests. See how the military which makes sense to defend our shores is perverted to get us some oil for our SUVs.
Therefore we really DO need to re evaluate the military franchise and how it serves the nation’s people.
Beautifly well put, Sander.
WE must get to the point, and soon, where no topic is so sacred or beyond examination as to stifle thought and discussion.
Our very future (not to mention our lives and the ‘quality’ of same)henceforth rest on our willingness to engage our best thoughts and honestly and openly share them.
Scared cows do need critical examination.
Unfortunately, we live in a time, which Hugh so-well termed the Age of Stupid, when our representatives (Congress are you listening?) have consistently refused to do so.
I appreciated your thoughts about religion, yesterday, and think, equally, that there is far too much veneration of capitalism from essentially the same perspective of ‘faith’; the ‘unseen hand’ business and its accompanying ‘beliefs’.
The price we pay for chasing a pernicious neocon fantasy — and not having enough politicians willing to stand up and call it a fantasy. It’s been five years, and the fog of war that settled over our nation has never really lifted. Public opinion has turned against the war without really turning toward peace. We’re still wandering around, lost in the fog, while the madness continues.
Read your piece.
Excellent! There a many here who wield-well, the pen, you are most- definitely among the best.
Much appreciated.
Thank you for your support.
My comments may come off as confrontational at times and they are never meant to be personal attacks against anyone who posts or reads here.
I am trying to get us to think about what we live in because we have a snowballing problem on our hands and the old solutions are not advancing our civilization.
We are still surrounded by bigotry. We are still fighting “turf battles and embracing the notions of “states rights”. We still have classes. I don’t much like the idea of class society. I thought it was wrong in the middle ages and I think simply expanding the middle class was not a solution as much as a strategy of the upper class to retain power and control.
Institutions such as religion and military, as I see it are serving the class based society. We discuss things like equal rights and equal access and so forth, but when you start with a ball and chain around your ankle you are not going to go as far even if you have an equal right.
I have argued here that much of the discussion on FDL is how to work THIS system to get it to do what it’s supposed to do. While this would be a great improvement, more important is to find a just system and to reexamine the basic flaws of some of our foundations.
It is getting to the point where something has to give. The economy looks like it is the mother of all bubbles and will burst.
The planet is straining to support the species which now inhabit it and humans are leading the way to change that and make it unlivable for many species and a very different world for those who can survive.
This is no dress rehearsal. We have some serious problems here and we need to see what is at stake.
I suspect that part of the strategy of the neocons, the upper class, the lords, call them what you will is to control not only the message, but all the channels that any message can be communicated.
They own the MSM. We know that.
The internet is the most democratizing and empowering invention since language or the printing press.
If we can get the people to use the internet to spread the truth, to learn about the world we can stop the lords, the neocons in their tracks because the people will not accept the serf like roles they are now playing.
They fear a revolution and change.
Obama by the way has no program other than it’s time for a change and people get it. There is almost no institution which doesn’t need radical change, including the constitution of the United States.
SanderO, give this podcast on neocons a listen when you have time.
Do something about the war !
The Ads on this site pay to create media campaigns to change the US !!
http://www.pushtruth.com
thanks I will.
I think everyone has pretty much left this discussion but I don’t think anyone was trying to “gang up” on you by disagreeing. Really though, if you can’t understand how, if quitting were an option in the military, you would seldom be able to send a force into combat, I guess there’s no point discussing it anymore.
I considered this a civil discussion, but do resent any insinuation that anyone who believes there can be a need for a military is a war monger.
That is the best synopsis of our over-all plight which I have seen.
I concur completely.
I also commend you on the ‘poetry’ of that statement.
Obama would do well to consider hiring you to help delinate ‘where’ it is we must go, as a society and as a species, that we may maximize our chances of obtaining a worthwhile and fullfilling future for all of humankind.
Who said that, crosstimbers?
I doubt that you could not muster support or troops if the threat/invasion/occupation was real and not lies upon lies and fearmongering run rampant.
huh.
We’d all be insurgents/extremists/terrorists in that case, ’cause I betcha lots of folks would rally if we were truly ‘invaded’ and our loved ones threatened.
Thank you for the flattery. I don’t think anyone who has bother to think hard about how our world works, who looks for relationships and drill down and takes a look into the way back machine would come to any other conclusion. I am surprised that more intelligent people I encounter simply don’t think these things through.
I don’t want to be a leader. I just want to be one of the many voices which make up a chorus. I am grateful to be able to express my thoughts here and that there are a some who may agree and others who may be inspired to re examine some assumptions.
I simply call it like I see it. And like everyone, I make mistakes - a lot.
Angie,
This is my point about the problem with the military.
We all will defend our homes, our shores, our communities if attacked. And we all will put those who threaten us on notice that they will encounter hell in trying to take our communities and homes and rights away from us.
But the fact of the matter is that we have no one coming to our shores, and the threats are simply not proven or worth going to war over.
Even if 911 was the act of some group of people who hate the USA. The way to deal with that is to find those responsible and hold them accountable. Not start a war in a nation of co religionists who happen to have oil which we call “our strategic” interest.
I don’t believe we can have a strategic interest outside our borders. That is a stretch in logic.
Not flattery, Sander.
Just calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.
‘Appreciation’ is in too short a supply these days, Sander.
Didn’t mean to ruffle your feathers.
But I shall endeavor to fainten my over-the top praise for you, in future’
Just not, ‘too’ much.
If you don’t like it.
Tough.
See! I don’t take no shit neither. :~)
No prob.
I support good ideas when I read them here too!
Enjoy you and your thoughts very much, Sander.
Out of curiosity, where do you live, Sander?
I know that you know that I live in Puttzburgh.
I now live in souther westchester just at the edge of NYC where I lived for 25 yrs after I graduated from CMU.
Again, out of curiosity, what was your field of study?
Mine was psychology, though I chose not to pursue it very far professionally.
I work or don’t work as an architect.
well said.
the only strategic interest we can have is honest peace outside and inside our borders.
btw, makes sense that you are an architect; able to de-construct and construct very well.
your plans are pretty darn good.
;)
I’ve gotta agree with angie on this, Sander.
http://www.dailycamera.com/pho.....fius/3310/
There is no mention of the 4000 dead in Iraq today on Fox News TV or their website.