What happened was that the other day Andy Sullivan wrote one of those irritating "why I was wrong about The War in Iraq" self-serving mini-confessionals that have been dribbling out from the New York Times and Slate this past week. I became annoyed, stewed on it for a bit, and then had this epiphany: why, for my Saturday Night FDL post, I will write a "Why I Was Right about the War" essay, and pretend it got wide circulation! SATIRE! COMEDY GOLD! But Jim Henley got there first and, to add insult to injury, did a pretty good job of it. So, well, plan B.
I only have one issue with Jim's post, which I'm not really sure is an issue at all. To explain. Jim is of course a libertarian, so, fair enough, he says that back in that horrible autumn of 2002 -- one of the most hideous periods in all of American history, by the way, and I hope never to see such bleakness again -- he was alert to the dangers of the war for ideological reasons.
As a libertarian, I was primed to react skeptically to official pronouncements. “Hayek doesn’t stop at the water’s edge!” I coined that one. Not bad, huh? I could tell the difference between the government and the country. People who couldn’t make this distinction could not rationally cope with the idea that American foreign policy was the largest driver of anti-American terrorism because it sounded to them too much like “The American people deserve to be victims of terrorism.” I could see the self-interest of the officials pushing for war - how war would benefit their political party, their department within the government, enhance their own status at the expense of rivals. Libertarianism made it clear how absurd the idealistic case was. Supposedly, wise, firm and just American guidance would usher Iraq into a new era of liberalism and comity. But none of that was going to work unless real American officials embedded in American political institutions were unusually selfless and astute, with a lofty and omniscient devotion to Iraqi welfare. And, you know, they weren’t going to be that.
Well, yeah. But I'm not a libertarian, and that was basically my conclusion at the time also. But then you didn't need an -ism to see the approaching disaster, you just needed, well, to be awake. As Henley concedes, to his enormous credit (I was going to say this originally, dammit):
you didn’t have to be a libertarian to figure out that going to war with Iraq made even less sense than driving home to East Egg drunk off your ass and angry at your spouse. Any number of leftists and garden-variety liberals, and even a handful of conservatives, figured it out, each for different reasons.
What all of us had in common is probably a simple recognition: War is a big deal. It isn’t normal. It’s not something to take up casually. Any war you can describe as “a war of choice” is a crime. War feeds on and feeds the negative passions. It is to be shunned where possible and regretted when not. Various hawks occasionally protested that “of course” they didn’t enjoy war, but they were almost always lying. Anyone who saw invading foreign lands and ruling other countries by force as extraordinary was forearmed against the lies and delusions of the time. It’s a heavy burden, I’ll admit. But the riches and fame make it all worthwhile.
I suppose I'm not really a very good ideologue. I mean, I have opinions on affirmative action, the capital gains tax, Social Security, whether the town should sell off that vacant lot near Wal-Mart or extend the bike trail (BIKE TRAIL, MOTHERFUCKER!!!), but, you know, it really did shock me five years ago that we were even discussing something so absurd as invading a country that had not attacked us. It would get worse in the years to come, when I discovered we we as a nation were soberly contemplating whether torture was just a forgivable "whoopsie" or instead a Patriotic Duty to Be Enjoyed.
Weren't we... civilized? Well, apparently not.
How did we ever get so debased, as a culture? How did that evil autumn of 2002 ever come to be? How did the national consensus ever become so corrupt? What the hell happened?
I have my theories, but there is, I think, some value in just stepping back and appreciating the sheer scale of the disaster. Our democracy is deeply flawed, you know, and we are desperately vulnerable to demagoguery.
Slainte. Also, this is an old post of mine that is still funny, dammit.
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Thers, Aloha!
Crap!
Evening, my friends.
Crrrrap.
fine crrrrap, as usual, thers
Fear
Plain and simple
Fear
Led us to this point
And L’Chaim backatcha!
hey Thers…
well, crap! that’s good crap there, Thers…!
Thers, Glenn touched on it too… Here’s a quote…
I particularly enjoyed that parting quip…! ;-)
The picture of a flooded bridge is funny?
or the (then) six-year-old?
Mine was 6 then too - is yours 8 now?
Still funny.
worthless crap
Fear? Maybe. Greed and Ignorance had their hands in it, too.
What still gets me is the complacency. I know so many people who are still content not to think about Iraq.
Aloha, Ma Cheri!
Anyone who justifies going along with an unprovoked (yes unprovoked) war by saying “all the serious people thought it was a good idea too” should be asked “if your friends are all jumping off a cliff, should you go too?”
I particularly enjoyed that parting quip…! ;-)
Hee hee. Yah, I saw that.
Greed motivated a very small number.
Irrational fear is the product of ignorance.
Complacency? Maybe some. But my memories of 2002 don’t include much complacency. Fear and anger born of fear.
Mack, whoops, try the link again. Be ready to laugh!
For anyone who hasn’t seen it, Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s letter to the New Yoark Times.
Aaagh. Proofread, Renee
i figured it was with a new york accent (laughing)
Hello Crap Nighters.
Ya know Thers, when you came up with that Great Idea, and others got to post it before you, I know, it’s sad, but it just shows that you were In The Zone. You just had the schedule to deal with. Totally not your fault.
****
What did Yoda say about Fear…Anger…Hatred?
T’anks Demi.
I think Yoda said “John McCain’s insane hypocritical ass, stomp it, you will.”
Thers, it all went to crap when
weberandrew loyd vadar did the musicalHow did we get here? Hermann Goering explains it:
I really do not think it is much more complicated than that.
demi–what gives?
One night we will hang out live and that will be amazing fun.
dayum, I like it when someone calls bullshit on someone elses game and reads them from a to z.
your big shindig is next week thers?
renee in ohio, did the nyt print his letter?
Oh yes. Wish you all could be there.
L’Chaim all around!
Laura, I don’t know where I buried your email address. I’ve been wanting to email you in the last few days. Can you tell me again.
It’s quite easy to find out who wants war, follow the money.
i am so glad i am an empty nester this time of year - i no longer have to feel guilty about eating bunny ears and no longer have to run out to buy unmolested bunnies to put back into the girls’ baskets.
xxx at xxxl dot net. (Also on fb, if you use that….)
Apparently, Rove, Bush & Cheney are Goering’s best students.
The clue for me was that we were sending our guys and gals to a place that supposedly had chemical and biological weapons. Does that make sense? Suppose they all came home with smallpox.
Clue #2. Shock and awe. Since they didn’t know where these chemical and biological weapons were held, why would they bomb the hell out of everything?
You know what it’s hard to find on a Saturday night before Easter?
Stores that still have chocolate bunnies.
Ask me how I know…
Guilt-free molestation, eh? Poor wittle bunnies… ;-)
gw let me know you have it and i’ll edit the addy to prevent the spammers from trying to snag it
*innocent look*
how do you know, thers?
No, at least not according to this Dkos diarist:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....759/482318
I have yet to have the kiddies but molested bunny ears are still a problem and easter bread and well everything associated with Easter (that is food related) seems to get molested
Since they didn’t know where these chemical and biological weapons were held, why would they bomb the hell out of everything?
Exactly! Because they already knew that UNSCOM had accounted for and destroyed everything after the gulf war.
PETCA knows where you live.
Bwa-haha-ha-ha-ha!
or perhaps the SPCB :)
Good evening Thers-
In some earlier thread someone spoke against the idea of making decisions based on “gut feelings”- that was with reference to choosing a presidential candidate.
But, I certainly don’t discount “gut feelings”. I’ve long been interested in the “type testing” thing- INFPs, ESTJs, etc. And know that people make decisions based on different ways.
I knew, I positively knew that the invasion of Iraq would have a terrible outcome from the get go. That was my gut speaking. I doubt that I could have make a persuasive argument to one of those totally logical “thinking people” that they would have found convincing. I just knew, based on intuition and feeling.
So, Thers, I am interested to know what was behind your thoughts/ feelings at the time. Logic, feeling, huge grasp of history, what?
PETCA = people for the Ethical Treatment of Chocolate Animals
(uh - can anyone help me find a See’s with late night hours? One of my bunnies had an unexplained accident.)
rather formal tonight doc
eggsactly!
oops - my bad. sorry for scrambled signals. had to adjust the rabbit ears….
Oh, that’s sweet, the bunnies don,t have to can’t hear themselves screaming… ;-)
Evening everyone.
Nice post Thers.
As long as each bomb costs millions, they don’t care…
I was the same, VG! Pretty much from the getgo, that very day i heard the first anniversary speech of 911, my intuition shouted at me that it was a bad idea. Much less the outright obvious warmongering dog whistles in the speech that set me off. It’s a combo of skill and intuition with some of us, as i’d already had mass media training, the rest was the built in ‘bullshit’ detector that i think is standard equipment for Firepups.
*grin*
Kirk hahaha! Oh, See’s. It’s a CA institution. But, I didn’t know that they sold chocolate rabbits.
belay that can’t…
Don’t forget-Shock an Awe was also a Super Bowl commercial for the US armaments industry.
Somebody said, follow the money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkVM-jGNn04
CAUSE I WENT LOOKIN’!
You know you’re a parent when you realize you would cheerfully carry out an assassination to get your 3 year old a chocolate bunny when there ain’t none in the shops in town…
Found a remote CVS that had ‘em. Luckily for the world.
BTW, Did ya’ll catch Moyer’s last nite, I was simultaneously torn between tears and being enraged… I’ve got to see ‘Body of War’!
OMG, I hadn’t read that before. Step by step what happened.
Alias- yeah I see we are very much the same. Problem is, “intuition” is not a terribly persuasive talking point in trying to convince someone else that, say, Invading Iraq Is Not a Good Idea. So, and that and many other issues, I’ve really had to struggle to present a litany of “facts” to make my case, whatever that might be. It’s hard work sometimes!
dang, its getting nasty
I did. It included a nice expose on how Byrd Was Right about the War.
The trigger was that they were able to convince a large part of the country that “they” attacked us.
Somebody spewed on my laptop while I was blogging the Alaska GOP Convention last week. Wasn’t me. I had to take it in, where they re-did a lot of stuff. I love applecare warranties!
Just got it back I bought a “skin” to put over the keyboard so that it is spew-proof enough to take it to the National GOP convention. Provided I don’t try to blog from the convention mens rooms..
That comment makes me think “how many articles have I read in the MSM press or seen on tv about
war profiteering?
Answer: not enough.
This is the real backstory of this war. Who is profiting from it?
Most readers here know at least part of the answer.
[What company did Dick Cheney head before he appointed himself to office?]
VG
For me, I think it was nothing very wonderful. But my area, such as it is, is Irish history and culture. This course of study does not tend to inspire confidence that one culture can impose its values on another without problems ensuing.
More precisely, I saw the invasion of Iraq as imperialism of the sort the 19th century, much less the 20th, should have cautioned against.
I remember saying, back then, that if you read Heart of Darkness you knew already the outcome of the Iraq adventure: a horrific mess.
Valley girl and alias, perhaps we all just knew too much about George Bush and Dick Cheney. Maybe it wasn’t all gut.
dugg
What scares me most is that this episode shows how we have completely lost control of the media. They really don’t like us.
Oh great, ET. You’ll keep us posted, I hope.
Twain- you were probably watching the news and paying more attention than I was to details, but I would have said it was “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction” hysteria - my recollection was that “they attacked us” was after the fact PR.
tripped and fell in your mouth, huh?
my girls never believed that one either
Oh i know. I’ve taken part in some arrests at work and intuition alarm bells start ringing when i know the ’scripts are frauds. But i’m lucky i haven’t had to talk directly to the cops, because i’d be hard pressed to describe the whole process. Logic can be used to explain the cues you catch, but you never EVER think of them at the time. Much less the fact that you have to slap the answer together in order to answer later.
Dugg here also, Suz.
Got a weather report? Chilly and clear here, but A/C temps earlier.
ygm
i’ve got it. thanks.
Whu’sup, y’all? Just surfed it.
I was kidding about covering the National GOP Convention. I wouldn’t dream of going to that.
51 and steadily falling here, newton. cold dampness in the air but the day was forking glorious - blue skies, sunshine, birds chirping and brazen hussy squirrels scampering about.
Our choc bunnies seemed to always have ‘accidents’ that involved an ear. Clumbst lil things
Or you also want to know what it was? About that time we needed some roof work done. So we got guys to come over and give estimates.
It occurred to me that you should at least be as careful about going to war as you should about getting a contract for home improvements.
1. Are they reputable?
2. Have they explained the math behind their estimate?
3. You ARE going to clean up after yourselves, right?
I wouldn’t have hired this administration to fix my roof.
Honestly, that’s a big part of what it was.
edited :)
Good evening dear friends.
the bathtubification of our infrastructure continues - glad i wasn’t flying today
Bonsoir ma chère, comment vas-tu?
hey tex
he shouldn’t feel bad. they never printed any of the gazillions of political letters i’ve sent them either. they did print a letter i wrote about the katrina refugees i was volunteering with at our convention center. it was more like human interest and so it was deemed printable. had i written about how bush let it happen, knowingly and did nothing before or after, i guarantee it would never have seen the black of print.
Remember the run up to the war? I was sure they had something on Saddam…something airtight…since it seemed unthinkable that they would make all those definitive statements without a smoking gun. However, everytime they came out with something, it was easily discredited, like Powell’s speech and Blair’s file. This was the first red flag-then I started listening to Scott Ritter, and delving into the history a little more, and it seemed obvious that most of the people bitching about Saddam’s WMD were the people who gave them to him to begin with, and UNSCOM had gotten rid of those. So-what other reasons could there be for wanting a large field army in Iraq?
All a Part of the Plan?
I thought you were braver than most. It would be really fun to have someone there reporting, though.
The Mystery Science Theater 3K with the tiny guillotine for chocolate rabbits comes to mind…
“It was a fair cop, but society is to blame”
Hiya Betsy, and All!
Betsy, thanks for the FB message — I’ll open and answer soon.
Doing well my friend, and you?
Hiya, Betsy!
alias- wow that’s very interesting about the ’scripts thing. It’s a bit different from dealing with a huge political issue, but intuition has to be right there. I’m not pressed day to day to make that sort of call, in the same way that you are. But, I do remember when I heard something, or read something about some very weird event close at hand, and the hairs on the back of my neck just tingled- I just knew that the story was all wrong (as it turned out to be) - really a totally creepy experience.
Hi TB!
Public opinion has turned against the war without really turning toward peace. It’s been five years, and the fog of war that settled over our nation has never really lifted. We’re still wandering around, lost in the fog, while the madness continues.
This guy said it best:
Hi newt!
Walmart hypocrisy in action
SPCB
Now that put a nice smile on my face.
PETCA hah!
That’s good to hear. I’M okay, been putting hours into unraveling the mysteries of an autograph book I found when i was 8. found it a couple months ago, as I was clearing my dead dad’s office. The thing is absolutely mind blowing, probably unique in it’s scope. Kinda stuff the Antique Roadshow would show with an expert, gushing and awing…
But will you volunteer to work there? Lots of hopping to do.
Good evening young lady.
I can’t help myself - whenever I read about some civil airport fuckery, I think PATCO.
Our current smirking chimp had an example (Raygun) to learn from, and has bested him exponentially.
who’d you get to sign it?
Walmart: Your headquarters for cheap plastic crap
he sure did, loohoo