On Fox News’s The O’Reilly Factor last night, former Bush adviser Karl Rove defended the invasion of Iraq five years ago, saying that “if we win,” it “will send a powerful message throughout the Islamic world.” Claiming that “the Muslim world is waiting to see who is going to win the conflict” between “al Qaeda” and “the West,” Rove argued that a continued U.S. presence could create “energy for reform throughout the Middle East.”
“By winning, we will send a powerful message that the momentum is on our side,” said Rove. “And it will rally the Muslim world to us.”
Too bad we’re not winning, then. Hell, not only are we not winning the War On Terror, we aren’t even competing. Sure, the Bushies have spouted a lot of tough pro wrestler talk about Confronting and Keeping Us Safe, and they’ve used it to justify illegal spying and torture, but what have they actually done?
- Pre-9/11, sneered at warnings and did not want to talk about terrorism at all.
- Made no serious effort to capture bin Laden at Tora Bora.
- Blew up Iraq without a plan (or the troops) to put it back together, disbanded the Iraqi military and civil service, and turned a blind eye toward torture, rape and murder. Iraq is now the world’s largest terrorist recruiting poster.
- Gave Musharraf a free pass on giving al Qaeda a free pass, allowing them to regroup and rebuild (see above). They also shrugged it off when Musharraf let A.Q. Khan off the hook for selling plans for nuclear weapons. Not to mention the whole being-a-dictator thing, when Dubya is supposed to be the Heroic Champion Of Democracy.
- Resisted efforts to improve port and plant security, or to allocate DHS anti-terror funding based on risk.
For an epic Most Important Struggle Evar with so much at stake, they really aren’t trying very hard. And the companion effort to turn Iraq into a shining beacon of Democracy isn’t going much better – "Overextend the military while we try to jawbone the Iraqis into sorting themselves out" isn’t much of a strategy.
"The Muslim world" isn’t watching to see if we win, they’re watching to see how spectacularly we lose, and hoping that we don’t take too many more of their brethren with us.
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ELI!
MM!
Aloha, Eli!
Aloha, CTut!
“create energy for reform”? When will they learn that the ME doesn’t want democracy, at least as we define it?
Losing was the plan. Kept Iraqi oil off the market, which made oil prices rocket. Generated revenues for Halliburton et al. Who could doubt, now, that losing was the end game?
According to Bush the mission was to remove a very, very bad tyrant and we did that. Unfortunately we F***KED UP a entire country to do that. Ain’t winning grand.
I think the ME’s best response to Dubya urging them to give democracy a try would be, “After you.”
There is no such thing as the War on Terror. There is such a thing as the War for Oil..that is what this is…Occupation to secure oil and money and global strategic logistics for the oil companies. Cheney’s super-duper, secret energy plan. He refers to it as a sacrifice by Americans for the “effort and the enterprise”.
Impeach these fascists!
Yes. The point was never to win, but to stay as long as possible. As long as they stay, they have veto power.
Fer gawd’s sake, we’ve turned the World against us, not just the Muslim world…! WTF??? 8-(
They sure as hell don’t act like people dedicated to eradicating terrorism and spreading the sweet, sweet nectar of democracy.
No doubt in my mind.
Heck isn’t our country already the shining beacon?
Ain’t empire grand?
sure, this is like saying;
“we have to skate against the islanders so we can win the world series”
I really wish the democrats started laughing out loud at how moronic these “architechs” are, once they start treating their statements as jokes to make fun of they will be rue to repeat their rubbish
rove is used to his axim, “say it, say it often and it becomes part of the conversation, your statements become valid opinions no matter how moronic those statements are”
we need to get our progressives laughing at what these guys say and looking at the person they are having a conversation with as if “you aren’t trying to tell me you think this is anything but moronic, are you”?
that’s the attitude that needs to be taken
I sometimes refer to it as the War On Insufficient Terror.
Pythons rule
I hope they all go bust…I hope they have to try to leave and run away to Paraguay and Dubai. The whole world is watching!!!
Watching Moyers Journal. A must see about an Iraq vet, Thomas Young, who was shot and is in a wheelchair. Took 3 years to make a movie about him which is coming out next week.
Watch it when it comes on or on the web site.
He doesn’t have anything nice to say about the Chimperor in Cheif, not should he.
It’s not the fall, it’s that sudden stop…:)
LOL…that is true…
The torso…OMG…exactly…
Remember that Rove always says the opposite of what is true.
So if the ME turned into a haven for democracy, would the prejudice against them here stop? Somehow I don’t think so.
Heh. I wonder if the Brits were just as cynical when they invaded Iraq in 1922, or whether they just didn’t know any better. (There might not be a difference. There is a big possibilty that PTB (powers-that-be) keep themselves diliberately in the dark so that they can do whatever they want to do.)
I can’t even imagine how furious I would be if I gave up my health, or a family member, for a useless bullshit war.
The story on the previous thread about Boca Raton does not bode well..when Boca Raton rebels…well…torches and pitchforks…I wonder if the Neocons have updated passports?? /s
I misread your typo and thought you wrote chimperor in chef, and thought oh, gosh, can you imagine his cooking?
It might become more benevolent, like they were wayward children who finally saw the light from our strong but kindly guiding hand…
LOL He’d screw up a pb&j.
And why they just can never foresee or imagine how things happen?
So true…
Ewww..salamanders and lizards and toads….something like that….
No, Stone Soup…that’s it..Stone Soup…where Chaplin ate his boot and made it look good.
You know when Karl Rove talks about reform I don’t think it means what he thinks it means.
The man is delusional….he should be locked up..he is toxic.
But still needed to be watched to make sure they stayed in line.
I *did* say “blow me” last night.
I think it’s time for me to do some serious soul-searching and self-examination until I can quell the burning rage inside me.
Ah, fuck it.
What a thought! Although, apparently McCain can cook some ribs. (I don’t believe he did anything but turn them when he was told to, but okay.)
It’s a working hypothesis. Somewhere I heard or read today the repetition compulsion in selling wars. Think it was Solomon on antiwar.com. Back with a link.
The Gold Rush, I think.
funny, I had this conversation with my co worker and once I said the following the light went bright on the top of his head, I said;
“there is no winning a war, there is a negotiated piece or there is annihilation, there is nothing in between but more war”
he got it
If we lose, it will be because of the Clintons and their scorched earth policy.
I sure as HELL am not voting for HRC under any circumstances.
Eli, good evening. What a timely post! Just got back from a week of R&R, finally some uninterrupted time to read,in which I polished off most of Fiasco by Thomas Ricks. Though written from a mostly military perspective, it describes what a clusterf**k it has been, from the very beginning. Military was given an impossible mission, and then undersupplied and undermanned on top of it to make sure it failed. The only thing it has done is convince Musllims throughout the world that our gov’t doesn’t give a sh*t about them
Link to Soloman interview on War Made Easy
http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/…..n-soloman/
I was surprised nobody said; ‘Bite Me’ instead…! ;-)
Well, the war that Rove is primarily referring to is the war against al Qaeda, which we did *not* ask for (not knowingly, anyway). But good Bushie that he is, he conflates it with Iraq because as everyone knows, *all* of al Qaeda is now in Iraq.
But I just don’t see us winning either war.
Eli, when I read the title to your post, I thought you were going to discuss the possibility of losing the election…
Scared me!
“What If We Lose?”
I determined that the U.S. lost the day the looting began.
When I saw your title, I thought you were going to talk about what if the Ds lost the 08 election. My response to that thought was bwahahahahahha.
Right now I feel the same way but never say never. McCain could be worse.
And just imagine the US trying to tell some Muslim country, “Let us help you transform yourself into a democracy.”
“No thanks, we’ll just bomb *ourselves* back into the stone age, thank you very much.”
Stone Soup. Totally. He brings the i(rock) – just to stay on topic – and gets everyone else to bring the rest.
RevDeb – you got us going on two of our favorite subjects, bush bashing and food.
What would he bring to a potluck?
(ducking)
You must be in a different time zone. Thanks for the heads up. I love Bill Moyers.
I would rather be underwhelmed by my president than terrified of him. That’s pretty much where I’m coming from this election.
And most elections, come to think of it…
We lost when we fired the first cruise missile during the shock and awe phase… Even Pappy knew better than to invade Iraq…! 8-(
I thought the surge was successful and we already had won. Nobody I know would argue with the fact either that Iraq has been transformed. It’s been about as transformed as a place can get and still support life. So I say declare victory and leave, now.
Is that also the one where his hands make the potatoes dance?
But what will The Muslim World think???
Well, you’re a forecaster & I’m a scientist. I waited until I had evidence to advance my conclusion. *g*
obama nails this one, check this out;
man, that’s good, I would have changed that ‘decades” word to “history” but man, this is great stuff
I believe so.
Since when did the Bushies care about what Muslims thought? Heck, Cheney doesn’t care what we Americans think.
I didn’t trust a word W said before invading Iraq, but the Shock and Awe blew my mind. I kept thinking of the innocent life and the beautiful buildings…
I still can hardly believe it.
Right. It was in the Gold Rush. I’ll never forget the scene. I wish I could find it. Stone Soup was somebody else…Marx Bros…maybe?
I don’t get it. Rove didn’t vote.
Heh. They got a mandate in 04 (50% plus one vote) so what more do they need?
War is a lose-lose venture. Only defense contractors win in a war. The people and soldiers lose. Flanders is hardly a scene of winners. The war may end but not because one side wins.
I have no idea how to deal with a country that is a Warfare State.
This scene here?
There don’t appear to be any movies called Stone Soup, except for something obscure-looking from 1993.
They’ve had lots of man dates. Just ask Larry Craig.
I think Karl’s concept of foreign policy came from some kind of twisted junior high fantasy where the bully who beats up the little kid gets to be the cool popular guy.
Yes, but don’t forget they slimed absolutely everyone in their path accusing them of doing what they were doing, nothing. Classic Rove, a political idiot savant who turns out to just be a plain old idiot.
sorry, that was about mccain but I wanted to tie it into roves rediculous statement
my bad for not giving proper referance and I give myself a time out
The Marx Brothers movie was Duck Soup.
You can read about stone soup here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup
No, the scene I’m speaking of is from The Gold Rush, but I can’t find a clip…I found the table ballet too..LOL..He was so brilliant. What about the Little Dictator…wow…
He was the Depp of his age…on steroids…I love Chaplin.
yeah, and he was the kid always beaten up who vowed to get revenge.
*spew* LMAO
Glennzilla was on fire today…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/index.html
That’s the one I was thinking of, but I think LS meant one where he was using a fork and knife and cutting and eating a shoe with laces.
And, unfortunately, that scene says more about our economy now and in the near future.
Times up! Come on back.
This one?
Bush/Cheney/Neocons knew what they were destroying. Several Archaeological organizations and Anthropological organizations contacted the White House and Congress giving a detailed account of Iraq’s history, various religious and ethnic groups and that the entire country was made up of antiquity that would be destroyed by bombs. This information was “considered” but ignored.
They knew. They knew.
Their conception of “valuable” is extremely limited, and often does not extend beyond their own asses.
I wrote yesterday, about how we’re entering the second half of the seventeenth year of the Iraq War:
thanx loo hoo!
Yep. Saddam was set up.
No quibble with the post.
But the “Overextend the military” phrase (a.k.a. the military is about broken, I just find a bit economical with the truth. No one ever seems to question this except Chalmers Johnson. I still trust his findings in “Nemesis” and a few quasi-corroborations here and there on the web, even from the Pentagon in unattributed statements.
Why ARE those Cold War bases still sucking up money and people?!
“Perhaps no other scene in a Chaplin film (at least of the ones I’ve seen) captures this feeling more than the one in “The Gold Rush” where Chaplin has gone to a great deal of effort to prepare a New Year’s dinner and is stood up by his date, spending his New Year’s alone. This scene is almost unbearably sad, so thank God it’s surrounded by scene after scene that will have you giggling. This is the movie with the famous “dancing potatoes” scene, and wait till you see Chaplin eat his boot for dinner, slurping up his shoelace like it’s a spaghetti noodle.”
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00…..s?start=40
My point being…that during the depression, eating the leather of your boot could be appetizing when hunger is that bad..
ET, did you see this poll commissioned by Metcalfe…
http://www.haysresearch.com/OC031208JAKE.htm
Yes!! That’s it!
what the hell does this mean
pentagon rules out retireing general testifying before congress
oh?
when did the pentagon become the boss of congress?
sorry, they need to subpeona his ass and have him invoke priviledge and the penatagon needs to be put back where they belong
Can you elaborate?
I have always thought that the objective was control of oil, and not freedom, democracy, or anything else. Bush and the neocons thought they would end up with what they wanted either way. If the invasion went well and installed a Chalabi puppet government, then Bush would have what he wanted. If the puppet government didn’t work out, and the country descended into chaos (as it has), then he would still get what he wanted in the long run by keeping the country divided and weak, so the neocons could just take what they wanted. so what if hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and several thousand U.S. soldiers had to die. One thing he didn’t count on, the Iraqi citizens were not easily fooled (as our 28 percenters here have been), and they are effectively fighting back to deny Bush the easy prize.
Something for all of us to look forward to.
I’m sure they did. They must like death.
Sorry, actions that might increase the desire to impeach Bush and Cheney are off the table.
Yes they did. I was following this very closely at the time and I was beside myself. I have subsequently learned it’s called “culturecide.” Anyone think it wasn’t deliberate? (Think civilian bombing by Brits in Germany & U.S. in Japan in WWII.)
I think it’s a little unfair to say that oil was their only objective.
Tearing up the Constitution was pretty high on their list, too.
Looked yummy!!! /s
I read this carefully, and Fallon is apparently not yet retired. Thus he must do what chain of command commands.
Since Fallon will still be in uniform they can order him not to appear, a subpoena could be issued, but, look at how effective they are in regards to Harriet and Josh…! 8-(
i had if you can believe the worst Rueben Sandwhich evah…..yuck
Control of oil means keeping it off the market to keep the price high. (See Greg Palast in Armed Madhouse.)
You have posed one of the most profoundly significant questions for Americans to ponder.
Do not expect ANY answers.
Prepare to be ignored.
But keep asking anyhoo ….
It is both…the march toward globalism…one ruling class…one ruling government…thank God they are too stupid and inefficient to pull it off. But, what a mess they leave in trying…
I’m sure shoe leather is tastier than the mud cakes they sell in Haiti…! 8-(
Yes but oil prices are high for the US because Bush destroyed the value of the dollar.
bingo, they really didn’t ‘want’ oil, they wanted the market controlled by them, they want to make oil scarse and the asset viewed as neccessary, then they could price as high as possible instead of competing for the market
April Glaspie was sidelined and like an old soldier, just faded away. Who knows what is in those unreleased documents. Were the documents reporting on her meeting with Saddam doctored by the State Department? I would like to know what really went on and why she took the fall.
yup….it was to sky rocket the price
Isn’t Fallon retiring within months? He could testify then, but the war on Iran will probably already have begun.
Can’t congress do anything to stop this?
Same difference…
That shoe dinner is working out very well for him.
Re Fallon, should he receive a subpoena, he might well be more interested in testifying than harriet and the whitehouse stooges. ianal, but it might well be that a subpoena would override orders from his chain of command.
That montage they put together of the vote for war in Washington is…………………
words fail. But they didn’t fail Sen. Robert Byrd; he is a national treasure and DC will be even poorer than it currently is when he has left it, as will we all.
not only that, they could make a bundle in selling oil and gas leases and practically force congress to give in in order to “up supply sources” which of course will not be realized any time soon.
I did get the impression that Miers and Bolten were using it more like a doctor’s note to get out of school.
I think they were already on their way to tearing up the Constitution before 9/11 and the Iraq ‘opportunity’ came up. In his first year as President he started to roll back the environmental protections of the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act that were passed in the 70’s. It was becoming apparent even then that he had no respect for laws that were in the interests of the general welfare.
they can subpeona him and then haul his ass in jail if he doesn’t appear
you know, the way miers is in jail as we speak
errr
The people are in the dark. The congress either has no clue or are drunk with kool aid. The media is getting rich.
The number of conspirators in the destruction of Iraq and the USA as we knew it is in the thousands and most of them are well heeled pols , military, business leaders, journalists.
This stinks so bad.
We have been screwed so badly, robbed of our blood and treasure.
Where is the outrage?
I remember reading that after the fall of Baghdad somebody found tapes that Saddam had made of the meeting with Glaspie. The tapes have gone missing, along with the news reports of their discovery.
yep. He’s made some bad votes over the past few years but he was amazing during that faux debate. I remember it well.
Aah, but, it’s hard to disregard your chain of command’s orders…
They certainly could close the government down and stop all the funding.
We need some tough love in DC.
heading home, see all later or manana
Haven’t seen you around since Leonard Lopate/Sen. Specter. Saw your comment. Very tastfully phrased. Did you listen? Lopate asked, and Specter said he was running. Here’s the replay in case you didn’t listen live.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopa…..2008/03/19
9/11 was the turning point (admittedly more so than Iraq), because that was when they started using the argument that the government and the president must have unlimited power because it’s the only way to keep us safe.
And enough people bought it to get the fucker re-elected and unimpeached.
I agree. Also, keeping other countries (China, India) from making long-term deals with Saddam from having access to it.
They’re supposed to disregard unlawful ones though, right?
There’s a third possibility: Nancy and Harry are in charge.
Heh, as I’ve been told repeatedly, if you don’t like it, write your congressman…! ;-0
Playing the speech at his funeral will be all the eulogy he needs.
All the candidates on both sides have done polls now – except Don Young. I’m sure he’s done some, but doesn’t want to make them public. All the candidates are shown beating Young in any race they’re pitted against him in.
Don Young, Gabrielle LeDoux, Diane Benson, Ethan Berkowitz and Jake Metcalfe debated yesterday evening on fishery issues in Kodiak. For two hours. You can listen to it at KMXT-FM radio in Kodiak.
I still can’t understand the rationale for not impeaching the fuckers. I really can’t.
Perhaps the truth will be revealed that 911 was a false flag operation to justify the endless war and provide cover for the US to seize the remaining large oil reserves in the ME.
He who controls oil controls the world today.
It’s that simple. And nothing will stop them from getting it. Any scheme or plan is on the table, Pull out all the stops to make it happen.
And they did.
Our “democracy” is a fig leaf over the fascism that runs the nation.
Step out of line and you are disappeared, no habeus corpus.
Shuddup and buy the useless junk you are addicted to.
My mantra before 03 invasion of Iraq was please let it happen ASAP so we can know the consequences & not reelect W. Hopelessley they timed the invasion just right and Kerrey stunk as a candidate (though he won anyway).
They do. As long as it’s other people’s pain.
Well, there’s your constitutional duty, and then there’s your sense of what’s politically expedient and comfortable. Guess which one won out.
But, it has to be unlawful in more ways than that and the pixie dust theory has yet to be dispelled in a court of law…
Mahalo, ET, I shall listen to it!
Yes they can…they can begin impeachment..and tie them up in the investigations…but apparently, they won’t…if they don”t attempt to stop them before…they have said they will impeach them “after”…then, it will be too late..count on that they will wait until it is too late, and then they will set themselves up. They have no intention of leaving without completing their destruction of the axis of evil. Anyone who thinks they will pack their bags, just like that, and leave…is dreaming. We have to make them leave by dispowering them.
Thanks, for linky, eCAHN. Will listen.
Whatever Happened to April Glaspie?
Oh, Saddam met with Glaspie. Imagine that. Imagine that he should have interpreted that meeting as a Green Light for invasion of Kuwait (our friend Joe Wilson notwithstanding). Just imagine that.
It didn’t “come up”….
Once the Bushies are out of office, it will be, “Phew! Thank God that’s over with! Our long national nightmare is over, let’s not dwell on it any further.”
Waxman and Conyers may want to keep at it, but I don’t think Nancy will.
They are intimidated and afraid to fight the right because they know that they might not live to tell the tale.
These guys play rough.
JFK
MLK
RFK
Paul Welstone
and they break the laws with impunity and no one does a thing to stop them. They defy congress sub poenas. They refuse to testify under oath.
What does it take to see that we have experienced a coup and our “leaders” are scared shitless and can only make believe they are the opposition.
They will steal or stop the election or assassinate Obama.
They will even drive the economy into the tank because the rich can weather the hell that will put everyone else knees to weak to stand and fight in this country.
OT . . .
QuakerGirl – left you a friendly message a couple threads back.
:)
yes tar them with the INVESTIGATIONS ………………..now
’tis but a scratch.
Whatever happened to Journalist 1 & Journalist 2???
No one will. Implementing the pattern that no matter how much wrong you do, there are no consequences. Rove knows that.
Peterr!!! – what a score. I’ve been vookng for that quote and couldn’t find it. Thanks.
Joe Wilson has gone batshit…imo
Once their exchange with Glaspie got out, their days were numbered.
….heh….
What are you proposing with this?
Only for Republicans, of course. I don’t doubt that a Republican Congress would cheerfully hound a retired Democratic president for the rest of his life.
You’re velcome.
bueller?
Did something happen with Joe Wilson that I’ve missed?
What if we lose?
But, but, but the mission has already been accomplished….
Naomi’s Klien’s Shock Doctrine is being played in spades as we sit here.
The country’s economy is imploding and the right will take over to maintain calm and order.
Dissent will not be tolerated nor will the press be allowed to publish anything that is not sanctioned.
Interesting to see how the military will treat the coming emergency? Will they keep order and shoot americans or will they stage their own coup?
What role will the private armies play in the coming emergency?
Fantasy? Perhaps. But it may happen.
Who would have believed 7 yrs ago:
$5 gas
the 5th largest financial institution bankrupt and on the way
sanctioning of torture
immunity for domestic spying
abolition of habeus corpus
a war that cost $1TT and counting
4000 soldiers dead
30,000 seriously disabled
1MM Iraqi dead
4.5 million displaced
NOLA allowed to be destroyed and it’s people scattered
Who woulda thought?
We won’t know that until 12.
Other than he’s a true patriot and has a teh HOT better half, nuttin I know of…
The Wilsons were republicans but they were shit on republicans because they didn’t play along with the coup d’etat.
Don’t trust republicans.. they are in it for themselves.
Former Ambassador Joe Wilson, who appeared with Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, Tuesday in Philly writes in the Huffington Post of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, that “Claims of superior intuitive judgment by his campaign and by him are self-evidently disingenuous, especially in light of disclosures about his long associations with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Tony Rezko.”
Then this liberal blogger, Chris Bowers, writes that at a Philadelphia ward meeting, a Clinton campaign staffer “specifically listed Jeremiah Wright as an example of why Obama would be less electable in the general election. The context of his argument was that the Wright story demonstrated that Obama had not gone through the rigors of a presidential election before, and it was possible that more damaging stories like that would come out as the campaign progressed. Aka, the Wright story is demonstrative of how Obama is less electable.
I think the operative word there is “were”
Joe Wilson is an opportunist and his wife is CIA.
You trust CIA people?
I trust one: Ray McGovern
I don’t even trust Larry Johnson. He’s weird too.
Some people are so smart and they know so many facts it is just amazing.
Or it depends on what the meaning of “is” was.
It’s like being trapped in The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera. Just airbrush events out of history. But somewhere, there is evidence.
I thing the operative concept is once a republican always one at heart.
I don’t trust them, never did.
Were they shit on by the coup? yes they were and they were pissed.
JoeGuy and ValGal are no progressives.
I personally hang on those words…
Uh-oh, I sense we’re digressing here, folks…!
Oh settle down. You may be right, but even if that turns out true, you are certainly hyperventilating now (and on every thread I’ve read you). You are like the gold bugs who thought the U.S. was swirling the toilet in something like 1929, and who proved to be right in something like 1979, but only if you were a moron in the intervening half century.
I’m not saying economy is hunky dorey, nor am I saying that surely economy can be bailed out. But I strongly object to the baloney about all is lost. It isn’t. U.S. economy & U.S. consumer is much more robust than you give credit. No guaranty, but strong precidents.
Superior Judgment.
Isn’t that what Georgie does?
(Warming up for late night) I Got A Feeling.
But, I know that trusting your intuition is dependent on how in touch one is with truth and facts.
The Wilson’s previous Republican affiliations will continue to haunt them.
I believe that’s how it works.
Raging against the machine a digression. . .come now!
Marx Brothers film of 1933 – Duck Soup
Does anyone think the powers that be have taken any kind of economic “hit”…or are they just taking a day at the races in stride…?
Johnson may not be totally trustable but he did utter these words in public, “Let’s be clear why these were destroyed–the chief of the Operations Division, Jose Rodriguez, understood that this was video evidence of torture. It was not the exposure of clandestine identities that had him fretting. It was the fear that CIA officers and contractors could be standing before a tribunal in the Hague trying to explain why the images of torture were not torture”.
WE the people HAVE lost.
We have lost our rights.
We have lost our savings
Many have lost their homes
Many have lost their jobs
half have lost their health care
Many have lost their sons, daughters, fathers and mothers
What have we gained in 8 years? Name one thing Just one.
I blame Eli.
The Karl Rove as Pro Wrestler image in the post was just too much for me to handle.
Hail to Fredonia!
10 lbs.
I’m glad you said that.
Geez on the Wilsons. Does everyone need to drink the Kool-Ade and if they don’t they are traitors to the cause? Surely people here are not such robots?
I blame the librul media
I got confused…it was “The Gold Rush”..Eli found it and the scene is linked to above in the thread.
ruh roh! i hadn’t heard that. hillary saying obama’s not electable is a betrayal of the democratic party, imho. and joe wilson talking about wright and rezko sucks likewise. when i finally did look at wright’s remarks, it didn’t look like anything very different than things i’ve been saying myself.
i really hate what hillary’s been doing ever since she said mccain’d be better than obama as commander in chief.
*g*
i hope we keep (and make more) space here for people who disagree, even strongly…
It’s Eschaton all over again…
Did you hear that fat fuck Bill today? What a fucking pig.
Sometimes someone must attempt to be the voice of reason. I hate to put myself in the cross hairs, but …
Dang…I knew there was something. Thanks for reminding me.
Nothing, we’ve lost considerable ground… But, I disagree with this assertion…
Tell that to Suzanne…
Joe and Val may not be progressives but let’s not belittle their attempts to speak truth to power…!
Let’s see how they stave off the coming string of failures on Wall Street
Citigroup just laid off another 2,000
Delta is laying off 30,000
Starbucks is shakey
Lehman bros appears on the brink.
retail sales fell at even walmart
housing starts are the lowest since WWII
Even Toyota sales are off.
Where’s the robustness?
You believe Robert Ruben who sat there as Citigroup went to hell?
You know that there is trillions of leverage and exposure on wall street.
All you see is pump and dump now
You see anyone smiling on Wall Street?
What Bill?
Oh please no.
Well, that Bear Stearns guy did lose about a billion dollars and is (I think) now a mere garden-variety millionaire. I don’t know how he’ll scrape by.
Other than that, I reckon the ones who aren’t in jail are doing just fine.
By the way I am very settled down and relaxed. I have nothing to lose and no children to worry about.
fdl
Hi Peterr – I left a message there also. It haunts me to think I said something to you that was a poor choice of words. I probably will do it many more times in my own clumsy style. Just remind me again, if I do.
You might be surprised. Why is JoeGuy backing a librul contendah?
Did you see the message I left for you downstairs?
this one
Email
Print
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Adding a bit of fuel to the political fire, Bill Clinton made a bizarre comment on Friday, leaving the impression that he believed Barack Obama’s patriotism would be a general election issue.
MSNBC is reporting that on the campaign trail today in Charlotte, North Carolina, the former president said a general election matchup between his wife, Sen. Clinton, and Sen. John McCain would be between “two people who love this country” without “all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics.”
Evening Fired Up Pups….The Moon is Full and the crazy tides have been moving mighty swiftly this Spring evening…We shall all take a cleansing breath…in……and out…now do we all have our drinks ready? On the count of three we all take a swig, a smoke, or what ever your pleasure is this evening…tea for some…me I choose D. all of the above.
I kinda got blamed for everything over there, too…
You and me both.
Hail to Fredonia!
Depends how high up the chain or how low on the chain you go depending on your point of view. Cheneyco, Bushco, Haliburton, Dyncorp, Blackwater, Custer/Battles ;), Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Giant Agribusiness, Big Lumber, Big Polluters, Drug Cartels, Private Prisons, have made out like stinking bandits.
Urgh. I saw that quote out of context at Eschaton, and I assumed he was talking about the primary, in which case it would be an admirable sentiment.
I know, I used to hang out there. I lost the stomach for it. I still read the front page though.
Agreed. As long as you remind me when I do the same. :)
1 hour ago
SALEM, Ore. (AP) — A retired Air Force general compared former President Clinton to Joseph McCarthy, the 1950s communist-hunting senator, on Friday after Clinton seemed to question Democrat Barack Obama’s patriotism.
Merrill “Tony” McPeak, a former chief of staff of the Air Force and currently a co-chair of Obama’s presidential campaign, said he was disappointed by comments Clinton made while campaigning for his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, in a speech Friday in Charlotte, N.C.
“I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country,” Clinton said. “And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics.”
McPeak learned of the remarks while at an Obama rally in Salem, Ore. Afterward, he called Clinton’s statement horrible and compared it to McCarthy, the Republican senator from Wisconsin who held hearings on suspected Communist sympathizers in the 1950s.
(((wobblybits)))
anyone who bought gas in europe
once again, not surprising
anyone remember Black Tuesday
gotta admit – i didn’t see this one
and still cannot really beleive it
9-11 didn’t change everything but it sure made alot of people blase about torturing brown people
not yet
Japanese American internments
pretty amazing , indeed
see previous comments re: attitudes about brown people
i repeat
roughly half the voters in the last two Presidential elections
April Glaspie, a player who will live in infamy. Her incompetence in dealing with Saddam led to Saddam believing he had been given the green light to attack Kuwait. He was the most surprised guy in history when he did so and Bush the First turned guns on him.
There is no way Saddam would have attacked Kuwait if he thought it wasn’t okay with Bush.
He was OUR guy. We made him. We empowered him. He depended on us for everything. A stupid bureaucrat named April Glaspie allowed this guy to believe it was okay to attack Kuwait.
Although it is admirable that Bush put together the coalition to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, he was simply correcting a grave error committed by his crew. He (to his credit) drew the line at slaughtering the fleeing Iraqi army and occupying the country.
Unfortunately his son and his son’s Rasputin (Cheney) did not understand.
April Glaspie should be given the blame for all that has happened since.
Whatever you mean, I agree with it. *G*
Noooo! I’m afraid to ask.
i dont know what to make of it?????!!!!!////
And do you think that this, or worse, has never happened before and that the econony has never recovered? If so, shame on you.
As I said, just because it happened before is no guaranaty it wont happen now, but it should certainly inform your bets.
Who is the libral he is backing? Hillary?
Gimme a break.
She was a goldwater girl, is in a right wingg prayer group, voted for the AMUF and sponsored the flag burning law…
What is her libral bona fides? The D after her name? or her deal with big Phara and support of the MIC?
Understood.
see 214
Don’t encourage it.
I’m concerned for your blood pressure.
About McBush?
When Greenbubble and Co admit this is the worst economic situatation on 65 years I think it looks bleak and we are not even into it yet.
What do you see as the bottom?
lol, that’s no fun *g*
I am on meds for my blood pressure. it’s 140/90
evening to you as well. i still haven’t decided my drink of choice (wine or caipisake) but I will admit, that I have gotten so pissed off as of late, that I thought that I would have to take to the herb, but some deep breaths and a rollerblad or two along the shore with puppy and hubby did the trick
Maybe if we write all kinds of crazy shit on FDL the rotation of the earth will change and we’ll all be saved.
Well, it’s possible that it’s not intended as a slam at Obama so much as a plea for a swiftboat-free election campaign.
I suppose we can watch the fall and the revolution from our desktops. Should be interesting as long as the internet connections are there.
Dude, that’s what I’ve *been* doing. Doesn’t seem to be working.
Have been very disclipined about not doing this in the past, but am going to do one more indulgence tonight. Sorry.
707
demi at 275-” Got A Feeling.”
got a feeeeeeelin’ oh yeah………beatles.
got a feeeeeeelin’ a feeeelin oh yeaaaaaaahhhhh.
=========
and i have a few obama clarification issues that i want to put out there, but don’t want to get slammed, but i really want to know people’s view on them…..have been waiting for the right time….i’ve had a ’couple’ st. pauli girls,so, don’t want to do it now, but sometime or another, i am going to ask them. thought about just writing firedogpups that i email with, to get the big picture, but there are a few things about obama that i find worrisome, sorry, but i do. not things mentioned in the press. different things from that. of my own.
and i wish that the atmosphere has been such that i could have voiced them before, but i don’t think it has.
i would give anything to have no questions in my mind when i vote for the next president of the united states of america.
cheers.
And now for something completely different . . .
*Angry Black Bitch, that is.
Now there’s a decent idea. We can will the downfall of the right wing fanatics all over the place.
Baby steps, SanderO. Better Hil than McSame.
That’s all I got… Gray matter not what it used to be.
;~(
(((selise)))
Aw fuck it, I’m gonna tape the second half and go to bed, ya’ll motherfuckers are a bummer. (I say that with all due respect)!
Sorry for being tardy … just finished lunch :)
Something like 737 bases acknowledged in 130 countries, possibly over a thousand bases due to the fact many countries don’t want to admit involvement. Bases large, medium and small, as it were: MOBs (Main Operating Bases)Ramstein Air Base, Germany, 10,744 personnel) for example. Base worth $3.4 billion. Kadena Air Base, Okinowa — worth $4.7 billion, 9,693 personnel. On the latter example, after yet another reported rape of a local girl, Okinawan women posted a manfesto (this and other violence has been going on for years.) And other bases in Japan.
FOS (Forward Operating Sites) medium, unlisted in the 2005 Base Structure Report, in Honduras. The best (worst?) bad example is: Diego Garcia, naval and air base, B-2 bombers based there. Dieo Garcia is British-owned but was leased (or something) to the U.S. The Brits exiled the indigenous people formerly there …
Small sites called CSLs (Cooperative Security Locations) otherwise known as ‘lily pads’ that run from the Andean region through North Africa, across the Middle East to the PHilippines and Indonesia. They contain stockpiled weapons and munitions but have little or no permanent U.S. personnel — they’re there “in case”.
Looks like 22 other areas and six planned for Poland.
A lot of investment in infrastructure and X warm bodies …
So why do you think Greenspan is credible tonight when I would guess you thought that he was completely incredible in the past X number of years?
IIRC< most of you guys were here when Val Plame and Joe Wilson were here on FDL. Both individuals made some statements that were unquestionably pro-war. I had held out some hope for them. I read Joe’s book. I participated in the exchanges with them here. Val, especially, made some comments that turned me off completely (and I’m straight). Very hawkish. Too hawkish for my taste.</p>
I do a hell of alot more than read and comment on this blog. Please don’t paint everyone with the same brush as the republics do. Anyone paying attention is well aware of how things in this country could go. I for one am choosing to retain hope. I DO have children and skin in this game. I have worked my ass off for campaigns, I protest with ym fellows, I write letters to the editor, and I am an elected member of my central committee. I register folks to vote. If you’re worried about our country get out there and do something.
but they are NOT walkiing that walk
Hmmmm what are all them bases fer?
ls-
left you a message at donita’s thread with my email address.
glad I hovered my pointer of the link, otherwise I was about to ask what was the black bitch/angry black bitch comment about….teehee
got it. i’m running behind in my keeping up with the comments. thanks.
hahahahaha
Okay, that’s where I thought you were going. Doesn’t really mean that the military isn’t overextended, just that it’s largely a voluntary condition.
I don’t think he is credible, but he is sees the writing on the wall and he is not the one who is in the hot seat no mo. He don’t have to fix it does he?
He can do his mea culpa from da sidelines. He’ll be proved a moron sooner than later. He was mr bubbles
Irrational exuberance is making us all rich!
((applause))
((cheers))
((whistles))
me too,and he totally BODY slammed OHB today on Huffpo…they are off my list
Over extended? I wanna know what we are “extended” as we are? Is the entire world a threat?
Is Japan a threat? Or yerp?
BHO…..brainfart momment
Who are our enemies in Africa?
Are the Venezuelans coming to take over TX or something?
How about those Hondurans?
tbsa at 247–”skin in this game”
yeah girl, name it!
we are a name on this blog, with no idea what is goin’ on in our livin’ rooms, and what we do in our lives……over time we gather that information, but unless you’ve been around a while, you have NO IDEA what we are made of……….and the force we all have together, is undeniable……..what a wonderful gathering of informative powerful souls.
Enjoy, I am off to beddie bye.
I will resurrect in the am.
dream on.
She has a way with words, doesn’t she?
beerfart moment
yea and he is the maestro of MERDE(to pick up on Janes Franco mood)
I’ve been on this blog for more than a year and have shared quite a bit about myself. If you read the post I said I have children. I also have 3 family members in the military. Take a breath.
Je ne sais quoi “merde”
;~P
I think it was a complement, to get the rest of us to take a breath.
Night all.
Power to the Puppies. Right on.
and
ECahn. You’re making me smile.
Gotta go fix a bore pump/motor but …
Here’s a Greenspan snip from a 1966 essay:
I love it. Soooo … if he knew that then, how did he ‘forget it’ on his watch? I reckon he was just following orders.
Have a safe weekend, y’all.
did i spell it wrong? its been a long time since i met a francoshit
She does. A fav of mine, actually.
Hi Eli!!!
boa noite eCAHN
Okay, I’m tired I should go to bed, I really like this place and would NEVER want to offend anyone. I do everything I can for to make this world a better place for my children.
Hi Biodun!!!
thanks for the buggyride peterr. i like visualizing the scene.
good on ya!
Eli, if by ‘overextended’ you mean that the military is stretched just a bit thin as a result of their recent deployments and the ‘cost’ to the military, aside from money is flexibility and the ability to engage in further deployments, then you are correct in that definitiion.
What of the ‘cost’ to the nation of garrisoning troops willy nilly to conform to the ‘cold-war’ notion of ‘preparedness’ (or to fortify ‘empuh’)?
Might that also be considered a form of ‘overextension’?
When, in other words, is enough, enuf?
Or even more than enough?
By the way, Eli, you always provide provocative posts.
(Might have mentioned that before, eh?)
Not a bad motto for anyone. G’nite, tbsa!
I say: the US loses as long as Pakistan–or more specifically, Waziristan–continues the status quo, and Osama and Mullah Omar continue to roam the villages and porous border and Pashtun tribal lands, and, and, and and…the so-called Durand Line nothwithstanding…
Iraq was never the US to “win” in the first place…US soldiers can’t even have sex or alcohol with their colleagues or with anybody else…Muslim rules abound…
/snark…(and a bad one at that, but I’m in a foul mood right now…*g*)
Night, eCAHN.
zut alors!!!
Coup!!! Taxi to the Darkside:
http://video.google.com/videop…..pr=goog-sl
…
spelling good… i think
been 30+ years since i conjugated
can you imagine?
White House: Computer hard drives tossed
Friday March 21, 2008 5:21 pm
Source: Boston.com – AP
Author: Pete Yost
Published: http://www.boston.com/news/nat…..Boston.com — Latest news
WASHINGTON—Older White House computer hard drives have been destroyed, the White House disclosed to a federal court Friday in a controversy over millions of possibly missing e-mails from 2003 to 2005.
bonne nuit…
Quaker Girl at 80:
eCAHN at95
Of course it was deliberate. The people and the culture both were pesky problems. Unthinkable what might have happened had we not needed to put boots on the ground.
Dang, I went and prepped my Jambalaya and a bunch departed…
Yep. Don’t try to erase – replace.
Got it, responded.
It’s late on a Friday, and Good Friday at that . . . who could have anticipated this story?
Destroyed?….Ain’t that Saweeeet!!
just means more for the rest :)
g’evening pups
tbsa-i didn’t mean it as you took it, really, offered up as a compliment, was meant as an elevation of what you said.
i don’t do the slam game.
At its most basic, “overextended” means that we are trying to cover too much ground with too few troops. We have enough troops to man all those inexplicable bases all over the world, but not enough to man all those bases *and* occupy a hostile and unstable Iraq.
End result, longer tours and shorter leaves. I’m sure that could be fixed by closing up some of those bases and redeploying their troops.
Basically, it’s further evidence that:
A) Winning The Most Important Struggle Evar isn’t actually all that important to them, and
B) They don’t give a shit about the troops’ well-being.
Neither of which is a surprise to *anyone* at this site.
I am making gumbo as we speak.
chicken, sausage, shrimp, oysters
i did very poorly in French,and very good in Spanish,it is a devil of a language/
forgot about Fri newsdump”g”
OMG…recipe?
oh yum ,can ya send some through the intertubes?
hahahahahahaha
interesting… French and Spanish similar in many ways… masculine/feminine, conjugation schemes, similar wordage…
BabelFish translation: artiste de merde de taureau ?
email me and I will send it to you.
mary at dahothouse dot com
…adjective after the noun, both much easier than the queen’s english…
;~P
biodun at 282-Iraq was never the US to “win” in the first place…US soldiers can’t even have sex or alcohol with their colleagues or with anybody else…Muslim rules abound…
=========
oh yeah they do, and it pisses some contingents of the iraqi govt of.f cases and cases of beer. the sex?not so much.
that’s how some people got shot, remember? drunk and saw someone that looked threatening, blew him away……..no charges.
have a friend that works for kbr. scary stuff.
Careful now. I’m sure Hillary has some IP rights to similar phrases.
the irregular verbs got me everytime
Ever read Mark Twain’s “The Awful German Language”?
Still piss-funny 128 years later.
((( Eli )))
I have it from a good source (The Onion) that The U.S. is a strong second in Iraq … not too shabby, eh ? *g*
Woohoo! Hiya, Petro!
Maybe the superdelegates will tip the balance for us.
LOL
Have a great weekend !
Thanks, dude! You too!
Oh, no surprise at all.
Do you think things will ‘improve’ if the Iranian ‘adventure’ is engaged?
We can certainly use ‘black ops’ to deal with Venezuela, but eventually we’ll become so ‘extended’ militarily, given the world full of perceived ‘enemies’ and Bush $ Co’s clear intent to tie us down in Iraq for the forseeable future.
At some point we over’extend’ the patience of everyone else and having over’extended’ our ‘credit’ and ‘credibility’ how shall we pay when the ‘bill’ comes due?
If we’re lucky, Bush $ Co will have de-parted or de-camped or mustered out with all the loot they can manage to steal and gone to their greater reward of happy chain-saw enclaves, their own little Green Zones.
If we are not so fortunate ….
The American Military must take some responsibility for whatever mess their leaders, civilian and military have placed them in.
The American military does have an obligation to think and should behave as if blind obedience might have consequences, not just for themselves
but for everyone else in the world. They are the ones, afterall who unleash hell, even if done at the behest of cretins like Bush, it is still done in OUR name and WE, ultimately, however uncomfortable this truth, ARE responsible.
Lest this be taken as a critism of the troops, it is not, neither is it intended to be taken that way.
The troops are in the same boat in which we, the people, find ourselves.
At the moment, a ’sinking’ feeling might not be inappropriate.
I guess it depends on how you define “improve”. By any non-Republican measure, attacking Iran would be a truly epic clusterfuck.
Question is, would the military obey an invasion or bombing order from Dubya without congressional approval? ‘Cuz I’m pretty sure that not even our current crop of Democrats would go along with that level of insanity.
Of course ‘improve’ is total snark.
As to the ‘current crop’; what if it is a fait accompli?
Bush has already said he believes he has Congressional authority to fight terrorism where-ever he says it is or thinks it is.
Do you think any four-star Officer would dare say, ‘Mr. President, I should like to assure myself that Congress approves, before following that particular order’? Three-star?
Do you think the msm would not approve, once ‘things’ had begun?
I sincerely hope you are right and that my speculation can remain just that.
McCain and Hillary are IDENTICAL. Voting for one is voting for the other.
Hey, I didn’t say the military *wouldn’t* obey, I’m just asking the question. I’d *like* to think that they wouldn’t, but it seems more likely that they would possibly register their extreme concern but obey the order anyway.
Really? Hillary would nominate right-wing pro-life judges?
Now that, Eli, is not so reassuring. But I would bet that your assessment is correct.
Sometimes, it ain’t a pleasure being right (can we still use that word) about such things.
I would be sooo happy to be wrong about everything.
Me too. Maybe you could do a post about that.
The incredible pleasure (and relief) to have ‘postulated’, ‘anticipated’ or even just plain guessed, WRONG!!!
Well, since we’ll NEVER be wrong about everything, we could go for a happy medium, and settle for half ….
Maybe a seance … with a happy …
That might actually work, come to think of it. Maybe if there’s another Late Nite slot open.
Good night, Eli.
Always a pleasure, full and complete, never a half-measure.
Well, off to dreams of a better
Likewise, DW – good weekend to you.
We didn’t lose. We won.
We destroyed their country completely, to show the world that no country should be allowed to run it’s own affairs if those affairs aren’t controlled by the US Government and corporations. That’s a victory.
We took out evil Saddam. That’s a victory.
We split Iraq into three separate dysfunctional tribal states: Shia, Sunni, Kurds. That’s a victory.
We made the tribal/feudal leaders of those three religious serfdoms wholly dependent upon us for weapons and military support. That’s a victory.
We have permanent bases in all three serfdoms, where we can send a stready stream of army guys and which must have billions of dollars of weapons provided by contractors. That’s a victory, to us in the defense industry.
We jacked up the price of oil. That’s a victory (for the Bushies at least)
We weakened our country, must greatly reduce services to our citizens, and are in the process of bankrupting our Federal Government. That’s a victory (for the really wealthy tycoons of America anyway).
We have made perpetual warfare a patriotic duty and effective Republican campaign platform, at least in the eyes of the super-wealthy and the super-stupid-but authoritarian poor and religious. That’s a victory.
We’re winning. If you say we’re losing, that just means you don’t understand the goals of this war. Get in the game! Join a defense contractor or oil corporation, or at least invest in us.
make a list .. and the next time we need to lose a war .. we can call all these guys up …
I agree Saddam was set up, but why? Why would we want to him to sucker him into overrunning Kuwait? I ask in all seriousness.
Iraq’s economy was in shambles from the Iran-Iraq war. Oil prices had collapsed because Kuwait had flooded the market with oil (and maybe slant drilled into Iraq to get some of the oil, who knows). I can see why Saddam wanted to over run Kuwait, but why would WE want him to overrun Kuwait?
“I think the ME’s best response to Dubya urging them to give democracy a try would be, ‘After you.’”
You bet. Our “democracy” is clearly on display when a political party gets to decide whose votes count and whose don’t based on their party rules. And, yes, there is a slew of additional evidence that this is not a democracy, but a tyrannical republic.