Login HereOn Fox News’s The O’Reilly Factor last night, former Bush adviser Karl Rove defended the invasion of Iraq five years ago, saying that “if we win,” it “will send a powerful message throughout the Islamic world.” Claiming that “the Muslim world is waiting to see who is going to win the conflict” between “al Qaeda” and “the West,” Rove argued that a continued U.S. presence could create “energy for reform throughout the Middle East.”
“By winning, we will send a powerful message that the momentum is on our side,” said Rove. “And it will rally the Muslim world to us.”
Too bad we're not winning, then. Hell, not only are we not winning the War On Terror, we aren't even competing. Sure, the Bushies have spouted a lot of tough pro wrestler talk about Confronting and Keeping Us Safe, and they've used it to justify illegal spying and torture, but what have they actually done?
- Pre-9/11, sneered at warnings and did not want to talk about terrorism at all.
- Made no serious effort to capture bin Laden at Tora Bora.
- Blew up Iraq without a plan (or the troops) to put it back together, disbanded the Iraqi military and civil service, and turned a blind eye toward torture, rape and murder. Iraq is now the world's largest terrorist recruiting poster.
- Gave Musharraf a free pass on giving al Qaeda a free pass, allowing them to regroup and rebuild (see above). They also shrugged it off when Musharraf let A.Q. Khan off the hook for selling plans for nuclear weapons. Not to mention the whole being-a-dictator thing, when Dubya is supposed to be the Heroic Champion Of Democracy.
- Resisted efforts to improve port and plant security, or to allocate DHS anti-terror funding based on risk.
For an epic Most Important Struggle Evar with so much at stake, they really aren't trying very hard. And the companion effort to turn Iraq into a shining beacon of Democracy isn't going much better - "Overextend the military while we try to jawbone the Iraqis into sorting themselves out" isn't much of a strategy.
"The Muslim world" isn't watching to see if we win, they're watching to see how spectacularly we lose, and hoping that we don't take too many more of their brethren with us.
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ELI!
MM!
Aloha, Eli!
Aloha, CTut!
“create energy for reform”? When will they learn that the ME doesn’t want democracy, at least as we define it?
Losing was the plan. Kept Iraqi oil off the market, which made oil prices rocket. Generated revenues for Halliburton et al. Who could doubt, now, that losing was the end game?
According to Bush the mission was to remove a very, very bad tyrant and we did that. Unfortunately we F***KED UP a entire country to do that. Ain’t winning grand.
I think the ME’s best response to Dubya urging them to give democracy a try would be, “After you.”
There is no such thing as the War on Terror. There is such a thing as the War for Oil..that is what this is…Occupation to secure oil and money and global strategic logistics for the oil companies. Cheney’s super-duper, secret energy plan. He refers to it as a sacrifice by Americans for the “effort and the enterprise”.
Impeach these fascists!
Yes. The point was never to win, but to stay as long as possible. As long as they stay, they have veto power.
Fer gawd’s sake, we’ve turned the World against us, not just the Muslim world…! WTF??? 8-(
They sure as hell don’t act like people dedicated to eradicating terrorism and spreading the sweet, sweet nectar of democracy.
No doubt in my mind.
Heck isn’t our country already the shining beacon?
Ain’t empire grand?
sure, this is like saying;
“we have to skate against the islanders so we can win the world series”
I really wish the democrats started laughing out loud at how moronic these “architechs” are, once they start treating their statements as jokes to make fun of they will be rue to repeat their rubbish
rove is used to his axim, “say it, say it often and it becomes part of the conversation, your statements become valid opinions no matter how moronic those statements are”
we need to get our progressives laughing at what these guys say and looking at the person they are having a conversation with as if “you aren’t trying to tell me you think this is anything but moronic, are you”?
that’s the attitude that needs to be taken
I sometimes refer to it as the War On Insufficient Terror.
Pythons rule
I hope they all go bust…I hope they have to try to leave and run away to Paraguay and Dubai. The whole world is watching!!!
Watching Moyers Journal. A must see about an Iraq vet, Thomas Young, who was shot and is in a wheelchair. Took 3 years to make a movie about him which is coming out next week.
Watch it when it comes on or on the web site.
He doesn’t have anything nice to say about the Chimperor in Cheif, not should he.
It’s not the fall, it’s that sudden stop…:)
LOL…that is true…
The torso…OMG…exactly…
Remember that Rove always says the opposite of what is true.
So if the ME turned into a haven for democracy, would the prejudice against them here stop? Somehow I don’t think so.
Heh. I wonder if the Brits were just as cynical when they invaded Iraq in 1922, or whether they just didn’t know any better. (There might not be a difference. There is a big possibilty that PTB (powers-that-be) keep themselves diliberately in the dark so that they can do whatever they want to do.)
I can’t even imagine how furious I would be if I gave up my health, or a family member, for a useless bullshit war.
The story on the previous thread about Boca Raton does not bode well..when Boca Raton rebels…well…torches and pitchforks…I wonder if the Neocons have updated passports?? /s
I misread your typo and thought you wrote chimperor in chef, and thought oh, gosh, can you imagine his cooking?
It might become more benevolent, like they were wayward children who finally saw the light from our strong but kindly guiding hand…
LOL He’d screw up a pb&j.
And why they just can never foresee or imagine how things happen?
So true…
Ewww..salamanders and lizards and toads….something like that….
No, Stone Soup…that’s it..Stone Soup…where Chaplin ate his boot and made it look good.
You know when Karl Rove talks about reform I don’t think it means what he thinks it means.
The man is delusional….he should be locked up..he is toxic.
But still needed to be watched to make sure they stayed in line.
I *did* say “blow me” last night.
I think it’s time for me to do some serious soul-searching and self-examination until I can quell the burning rage inside me.
Ah, fuck it.
What a thought! Although, apparently McCain can cook some ribs. (I don’t believe he did anything but turn them when he was told to, but okay.)
It’s a working hypothesis. Somewhere I heard or read today the repetition compulsion in selling wars. Think it was Solomon on antiwar.com. Back with a link.
The Gold Rush, I think.
funny, I had this conversation with my co worker and once I said the following the light went bright on the top of his head, I said;
“there is no winning a war, there is a negotiated piece or there is annihilation, there is nothing in between but more war”
he got it
If we lose, it will be because of the Clintons and their scorched earth policy.
I sure as HELL am not voting for HRC under any circumstances.
Eli, good evening. What a timely post! Just got back from a week of R&R, finally some uninterrupted time to read,in which I polished off most of Fiasco by Thomas Ricks. Though written from a mostly military perspective, it describes what a clusterf**k it has been, from the very beginning. Military was given an impossible mission, and then undersupplied and undermanned on top of it to make sure it failed. The only thing it has done is convince Musllims throughout the world that our gov’t doesn’t give a sh*t about them
Link to Soloman interview on War Made Easy
http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/.....n-soloman/
I was surprised nobody said; ‘Bite Me’ instead…! ;-)
Well, the war that Rove is primarily referring to is the war against al Qaeda, which we did *not* ask for (not knowingly, anyway). But good Bushie that he is, he conflates it with Iraq because as everyone knows, *all* of al Qaeda is now in Iraq.
But I just don’t see us winning either war.
Eli, when I read the title to your post, I thought you were going to discuss the possibility of losing the election…
Scared me!
“What If We Lose?”
I determined that the U.S. lost the day the looting began.
When I saw your title, I thought you were going to talk about what if the Ds lost the 08 election. My response to that thought was bwahahahahahha.
Right now I feel the same way but never say never. McCain could be worse.
And just imagine the US trying to tell some Muslim country, “Let us help you transform yourself into a democracy.”
“No thanks, we’ll just bomb *ourselves* back into the stone age, thank you very much.”
Stone Soup. Totally. He brings the i(rock) - just to stay on topic - and gets everyone else to bring the rest.
RevDeb - you got us going on two of our favorite subjects, bush bashing and food.
What would he bring to a potluck?
(ducking)
You must be in a different time zone. Thanks for the heads up. I love Bill Moyers.
I would rather be underwhelmed by my president than terrified of him. That’s pretty much where I’m coming from this election.
And most elections, come to think of it…
We lost when we fired the first cruise missile during the shock and awe phase… Even Pappy knew better than to invade Iraq…! 8-(
I thought the surge was successful and we already had won. Nobody I know would argue with the fact either that Iraq has been transformed. It’s been about as transformed as a place can get and still support life. So I say declare victory and leave, now.
Is that also the one where his hands make the potatoes dance?
But what will The Muslim World think???
Well, you’re a forecaster & I’m a scientist. I waited until I had evidence to advance my conclusion. *g*
obama nails this one, check this out;
man, that’s good, I would have changed that ‘decades” word to “history” but man, this is great stuff
I believe so.
Since when did the Bushies care about what Muslims thought? Heck, Cheney doesn’t care what we Americans think.
I didn’t trust a word W said before invading Iraq, but the Shock and Awe blew my mind. I kept thinking of the innocent life and the beautiful buildings…
I still can hardly believe it.
Right. It was in the Gold Rush. I’ll never forget the scene. I wish I could find it. Stone Soup was somebody else…Marx Bros…maybe?
I don’t get it. Rove didn’t vote.
Heh. They got a mandate in 04 (50% plus one vote) so what more do they need?
War is a lose-lose venture. Only defense contractors win in a war. The people and soldiers lose. Flanders is hardly a scene of winners. The war may end but not because one side wins.
I have no idea how to deal with a country that is a Warfare State.
This scene here?
There don’t appear to be any movies called Stone Soup, except for something obscure-looking from 1993.
They’ve had lots of man dates. Just ask Larry Craig.
I think Karl’s concept of foreign policy came from some kind of twisted junior high fantasy where the bully who beats up the little kid gets to be the cool popular guy.
Yes, but don’t forget they slimed absolutely everyone in their path accusing them of doing what they were doing, nothing. Classic Rove, a political idiot savant who turns out to just be a plain old idiot.
sorry, that was about mccain but I wanted to tie it into roves rediculous statement
my bad for not giving proper referance and I give myself a time out
The Marx Brothers movie was Duck Soup.
You can read about stone soup here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup
No, the scene I’m speaking of is from The Gold Rush, but I can’t find a clip…I found the table ballet too..LOL..He was so brilliant. What about the Little Dictator…wow…
He was the Depp of his age…on steroids…I love Chaplin.
yeah, and he was the kid always beaten up who vowed to get revenge.
*spew* LMAO
Glennzilla was on fire today…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/index.html
That’s the one I was thinking of, but I think LS meant one where he was using a fork and knife and cutting and eating a shoe with laces.
And, unfortunately, that scene says more about our economy now and in the near future.
Times up! Come on back.
This one?
Bush/Cheney/Neocons knew what they were destroying. Several Archaeological organizations and Anthropological organizations contacted the White House and Congress giving a detailed account of Iraq’s history, various religious and ethnic groups and that the entire country was made up of antiquity that would be destroyed by bombs. This information was “considered” but ignored.
They knew. They knew.
Their conception of “valuable” is extremely limited, and often does not extend beyond their own asses.
I wrote yesterday, about how we’re entering the second half of the seventeenth year of the Iraq War:
thanx loo hoo!
Yep. Saddam was set up.
No quibble with the post.
But the “Overextend the military” phrase (a.k.a. the military is about broken, I just find a bit economical with the truth. No one ever seems to question this except Chalmers Johnson. I still trust his findings in “Nemesis” and a few quasi-corroborations here and there on the web, even from the Pentagon in unattributed statements.
Why ARE those Cold War bases still sucking up money and people?!
“Perhaps no other scene in a Chaplin film (at least of the ones I’ve seen) captures this feeling more than the one in “The Gold Rush” where Chaplin has gone to a great deal of effort to prepare a New Year’s dinner and is stood up by his date, spending his New Year’s alone. This scene is almost unbearably sad, so thank God it’s surrounded by scene after scene that will have you giggling. This is the movie with the famous “dancing potatoes” scene, and wait till you see Chaplin eat his boot for dinner, slurping up his shoelace like it’s a spaghetti noodle.”
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00.....s?start=40
My point being…that during the depression, eating the leather of your boot could be appetizing when hunger is that bad..
ET, did you see this poll commissioned by Metcalfe…
http://www.haysresearch.com/OC031208JAKE.htm
Yes!! That’s it!
what the hell does this mean
pentagon rules out retireing general testifying before congress
oh?
when did the pentagon become the boss of congress?
sorry, they need to subpeona his ass and have him invoke priviledge and the penatagon needs to be put back where they belong
Can you elaborate?
I have always thought that the objective was control of oil, and not freedom, democracy, or anything else. Bush and the neocons thought they would end up with what they wanted either way. If the invasion went well and installed a Chalabi puppet government, then Bush would have what he wanted. If the puppet government didn’t work out, and the country descended into chaos (as it has), then he would still get what he wanted in the long run by keeping the country divided and weak, so the neocons could just take what they wanted. so what if hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and several thousand U.S. soldiers had to die. One thing he didn’t count on, the Iraqi citizens were not easily fooled (as our 28 percenters here have been), and they are effectively fighting back to deny Bush the easy prize.
Something for all of us to look forward to.
I’m sure they did. They must like death.
Sorry, actions that might increase the desire to impeach Bush and Cheney are off the table.
Yes they did. I was following this very closely at the time and I was beside myself. I have subsequently learned it’s called “culturecide.” Anyone think it wasn’t deliberate? (Think civilian bombing by Brits in Germany & U.S. in Japan in WWII.)
I think it’s a little unfair to say that oil was their only objective.
Tearing up the Constitution was pretty high on their list, too.
Looked yummy!!! /s
I read this carefully, and Fallon is apparently not yet retired. Thus he must do what chain of command commands.
Since Fallon will still be in uniform they can order him not to appear, a subpoena could be issued, but, look at how effective they are in regards to Harriet and Josh…! 8-(
i had if you can believe the worst Rueben Sandwhich evah…..yuck
Control of oil means keeping it off the market to keep the price high. (See Greg Palast in Armed Madhouse.)
You have posed one of the most profoundly significant questions for Americans to ponder.
Do not expect ANY answers.
Prepare to be ignored.
But keep asking anyhoo ….
It is both…the march toward globalism…one ruling class…one ruling government…thank God they are too stupid and inefficient to pull it off. But, what a mess they leave in trying…
I’m sure shoe leather is tastier than the mud cakes they sell in Haiti…! 8-(
Yes but oil prices are high for the US because Bush destroyed the value of the dollar.
bingo, they really didn’t ‘want’ oil, they wanted the market controlled by them, they want to make oil scarse and the asset viewed as neccessary, then they could price as high as possible instead of competing for the market
April Glaspie was sidelined and like an old soldier, just faded away. Who knows what is in those unreleased documents. Were the documents reporting on her meeting with Saddam doctored by the State Department? I would like to know what really went on and why she took the fall.
yup….it was to sky rocket the price
Isn’t Fallon retiring within months? He could testify then, but the war on Iran will probably already have begun.
Can’t congress do anything to stop this?
Same difference…
That shoe dinner is working out very well for him.
Re Fallon, should he receive a subpoena, he might well be more interested in testifying than harriet and the whitehouse stooges. ianal, but it might well be that a subpoena would override orders from his chain of command.
That montage they put together of the vote for war in Washington is…………………
words fail. But they didn’t fail Sen. Robert Byrd; he is a national treasure and DC will be even poorer than it currently is when he has left it, as will we all.
not only that, they could make a bundle in selling oil and gas leases and practically force congress to give in in order to “up supply sources” which of course will not be realized any time soon.
I did get the impression that Miers and Bolten were using it more like a doctor’s note to get out of school.
I think they were already on their way to tearing up the Constitution before 9/11 and the Iraq ‘opportunity’ came up. In his first year as President he started to roll back the environmental protections of the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act that were passed in the 70’s. It was becoming apparent even then that he had no respect for laws that were in the interests of the general welfare.
they can subpeona him and then haul his ass in jail if he doesn’t appear
you know, the way miers is in jail as we speak
errr
The people are in the dark. The congress either has no clue or are drunk with kool aid. The media is getting rich.
The number of conspirators in the destruction of Iraq and the USA as we knew it is in the thousands and most of them are well heeled pols , military, business leaders, journalists.
This stinks so bad.
We have been screwed so badly, robbed of our blood and treasure.
Where is the outrage?