This is a time of testing for the nation's media. Yesterday, Barack Obama challenged them to lift their game, to deal with the difficult issue of race as seriously and responsibly as he did in his speech at Philadelphia's Freedom Hall. So far, many outside Fox News adherents appear to be rising to the challenge -- and credit where credit is due, Chris Matthews. (ABC, CBS?)
On the same day, John McCain, whom the media treats with reverence and declares to be wise and experienced about foreign policy, showed he didn't even know who's playing the game. How will the media explain this:?
Was the old warrior just momentarily confused? Does that happen often? Or Did John McCain just illustrate he is as dangerously misinformed as the President? Neither man can sort out Sunnies from Shia, al Qaeda from the Iranians, and who hates whom, but both men are certain the lives and treasure they've sacrificed in fighting -- whom? -- were worth it.
Bush gave his most recent "why we can never leave Iraq" speech yesterday, warning that a US withdrawal would result in a scenario so implausible no one in the intelligence community would believe it:
"If we were to allow our enemies to prevail in Iraq, the violence that is now declining would accelerate and Iraq could descend into chaos," Bush said. "Al-Qaida would regain its lost sanctuaries and establish new ones fomenting violence and terror that could spread beyond Iraq's borders, with serious consequences to the world economy.
"Out of such chaos in Iraq, the terrorist movement could emerge emboldened with new recruits ... new resources ... and an even greater determination to dominate the region and harm America," Bush said in his remarks. "An emboldened al-Qaida with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America and other free nations. Iran could be emboldened as well with a renewed determination to develop nuclear weapons and impose its brand of hegemony across the broader Middle East. And our enemies would see an American failure in Iraq as evidence of weakness and lack of resolve."
I think that translates to this: If we withdraw, the surge's "success" in achieving reconciliation would evaporate, meaning it's accomplished nothing. The 60-90,000 Sunni insurgents we've been paying to arm themselves against the Iranians/Shia but not fight us will join a handful of al Qaeda fighters they hate and previously rejected before the surge. After overwhelming the vastly larger Iranian backed Iraq army and huge Shia militias, including the Mahdi Army, and presumably the Iranian Army if needed, the minority Sunnis will take over Iraq and its oil fields. The defeated Iranians will then rule over the Middle East, and they will help Al Qaeda acquire nuclear weapons, because al Qaeda and Shia Iran are buddies.
The Iranians will cooperate in this fantastic scenario, because as John McCain said three times yesterday before being corrected by Graham and Lieberman (h/t Eli), the Iranians have been training al Qaeda and sending them back into Iraq to fight . . . someone.
When McCain returns, he will no doubt tout his foreign policy experience, and he may even show off his foreign policy team, using that clip. Perhaps he can get Senator Clinton to mention his readiness to be Commander in Chief, even though he's a little confused about who his Army if fighting after taking over 30,000 casualties at his urging.
Yesterday, Thomas Fingar, deputy director of National Intelligence, told Congress the Bush Administration's so-called "intelligence" on Saddam's weapons of mass destruction was the "single worst product" he'd seen in his 38 year career in intelligence. It was like "a yearbook photo on your worst hair day ever," he noted. The WMD claims were as credible as the fabrication that Saddam Hussein had some meaningful link with al Qaeda, a lie Dick Cheney continues to spin even after the Pentagon has thoroughly repudiated it.
These men, often wrong, but never in doubt, now assure us that the war against Iraq was worth fighting, that losing 4,000 US soldiers, 28,000 wounded and a half trillion dollars -- we don't count Iraqi losses -- based on ignorance, lies and delusions were the right decision.
Back in the real world, most Americans have come to a different conclusion. The latest CBS poll shows that 64 percent of American do not believe anything we've accomplished in Iraq was worth the loss in lives and treasure. And the Iraqis want us out. Wonder why.
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Morning….1st?
Yo
Zed. how about the ‘intelligence’ used by McCain to show that Iran is training Al-Queda?
If we cannot be defeated militarily, and we can’t, these fuckers will continue this line of argument. If the dems win and pull out they will continue what they have done since 1975. Get used to it.
I posted this downstairs
there are monetary costs that can never be weighed, that the leger will never tell
each and every person gives a positive return, that is, on the whole, the government gets more from each of us then it spends
that positive return is now lost, and of course we can project that loss onto the children that will never be born
also, there is lost productivity from the loved ones that are affected by the war, if someone’s son dies in the war, on the whole these people loose productivity
and there is the loss in confidence for the country, where once other systems respected our government and our people, that has turned into vile hatred, where once owning an american made product could be a sign of influence, now it is viewed with vile contempt
and of course, those that wanted to visit our land, to contribute, now do not
one of my very best friends is a famous nuerologist, a muslim, and he and his family once rejoiced at their american holdings, now they have divested and will be leaving this country, their family never to return
and what about the einstein and the newton that will never be born?
what about that?
there are costs that will never be told, losesnever that mever be known and these prices will be payed by our children, their children and theirs, for generations upon generations
and the lost assets will never be known
Short Ride, McShitForBrains and Squeaky in the desert. The new Three Stooges except without any functioning gray cells among them.
Yo, Raven.
Well, ask McBus, 64% is a pretty small minority. The 36% majority, however, are still behind the murdering of all in the ME
Mornin bro, it’s fuckin great to be alive, no?
Morning Firepups… there was a great response in the letters section of the nytimes this am, to an editorial comparison of Bushies tapdancing to that of Gene Kelly. It was from Kelly’s widow, titled “I knew Gene Kelly, and this president is no Gene Kelly”.
I posted the following downstairs but at the end of the thread and I can’t let it get epu’d, sorry for the ot on an incredibly post scarecropw but I must
I will bring this up every single day until the man is released but
WHY THE HELL IS SEIGLEMAN STILL IN JAIL?
HE IS BEING BEATEN WHILE INCARCERATED, HE IS INCARCERATED FOR BEATING A REPUBLICAN IN AN ELECTION
he is the cog that will bring this administration down, he is the story that will land rove in jail
yet since the 60 minutes broadcast, crickets
……..
crickets
…….
why are there crickets, even at the lake?
we have to do something
why are there crickets, even at the lake?
multiple lectures this morning?
Back in the real world, most Americans have come to a different conclusion. The latest CBS poll shows that 64 percent of American do not believe anything we’ve accomplished in Iraq was worth the loss in lives and treasure.
i wonder what the iraqis think.
g’morning raven, I didn’t want that to go epu’d
how are you doing today?
I’m doing well, off to work for the morning
have a good morning firedogs
excellant response selise, hits that nail on the nogin
Roger that. Get up before the sun each day just to make sure I see the sun come up, which tells me I’m still alive. Old habits die hard.
On the subject of ’supporting our Troops’, this guy would fit right in here with our resident snarkists*
‘Of all the shady reasons for supporting the war in Iraq, the weakest was always how it was our duty to “Support our boys,” as they couldn’t do their job if people back home were critical. To start with, this doesn’t seem logical. Is there any evidence that tank commanders were about to fire off a volley of missiles, but then hesitated saying “Ooh I’m not sure I can go through with it because there was this sniffy letter in The Independent”?’
http://www.independent.co.uk/o.....97762.html
Scarecrow -
Very much looking forward to guest and your hosting of the book salon this weekend.
fine, thanks, watch yer topknot
That little presser was extremely revealing. I can’t understand how someone whose business is to know these things showed absolutely no comprehension of what is going on.
Either he is senile or having some sort of cognition or brain problems, or he is simply such an ideologue all he does is spout talking points. Either of which disqualify him to be a senator, let alone a president.
That presser alone should in a just world see him removed from the public stage and sent to retirement. This is very disturbing and frightening.
And if the press does not call for his exit, they too are incompetent assholes.
The contrast with the mental agility of Obama was stunning. Obi showed himself to be a keen observer and a man with a real moral compass and the ability to frame the issues and communicate them without heat.
Please send in some adults.
It was reported recently that 180,000 Iraqis have died, and 4 million have been displaced in and outside Iraq since the war started.
But the war has been worth it.
Maybe for the MIC.
Not so much for anyone else.
I’m beginning to really wonder if McCain is senile. Putting aside all the policy differences, all the mindless parroting of BushCo nonsense, all the failure to understand nuance, for a moment: doesn’t it seem like he’s having serious trouble remembering fundamentals and reasoning cogently about them?
caw-CAW! Scarecrow
when Bush says this, does he making like Al-Qaida had “sanctuaries” in Iraq BEFORE the war?
he does seem to be blithely unawares of late
Virtually all Iraqis want the USA out of their country. Many hate us, some simply want their country back. None of them want occupation except the ones being paid off by the US.
We went in there to destroy the social fabric of a society, to allow our plunderers to grab what we wanted - oil. Mission is being accomplished.
Disgusting. The winter soldier presentations were enough to make one sick to your stomach. Out military is rife with real monsters.
The best support of our troops would be to route out all the creeps in there from top to bottom. And there are lots.
There is more killing and violence now in Iraq than there has ever been under Sadam Hussein. See we fixed that… he was killing his own people. We showed we could out do him in spades.
Iraq Affairs Director from State Department on Washington Journal right now….you already know the “outcome” of that interview. :-(
i think it may be a bit more complicated than that… but over all i don’t doubt we are unwelcome. iirc, the first poll i saw of iraqis that showed a majority wanting us gone was in april 2004 - before the abu gharib photos came out.
… but still, i’d like to see some recent polling data.
That was not a gaff or slip of the tongue. The man does not know what he is talking about at times. He seems to have some sort of brain deficiency.
The only Iraqis who could possibly want the USA there are those who feel that our military is protecting them more than it is the cause of violence.
Just which segment of the population would make that calculus given all the innocents we have killed because of our hair trigger behavior?
It is common knowledge and has been reported in the media that Al Qaeda is allied with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. It is common knowledge that Congress and Crazy John McCain, have concealed the fact that Al Qaeda is being sponsored and funded by the Bin Laden family and Prince Bandar.
It is common knowledge that Iran has been given nuclear weapons technology for years by American Corporations. And it has been reported that Loyal Bushie Mark Grossman has provided nuclear weapons technology to Al Qaeda.
It is common knowledge that tens of billions of dollars of Iraq Oil is being stolen by Corporations controlled by rich, white men.
BLOOD FOR OIL.
The rules are: never ask permission to invade someone else’s country.
Good morning everyone. I’m still editing this mess of a post, so commit your favorite phrases to memory; they may disappear.
Good morning.
Hey, what’s the problem. All those hajjis are alike Treat ‘em like dogs. (I’ve been listening to Winter Soldiers on democracynow.)
“A large majority of Iraqis—71%—say they would like the Iraqi government to ask for U.S.-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. Given four options, 37 percent take the position that they would like U.S.-led forces withdrawn “within six months,” while another 34 percent opt for “gradually withdraw[ing] U.S.-led forces according to a one-year timeline.” Twenty percent favor a two-year timeline and just 9 percent favor “only reduc[ing] U.S.-led forces as the security situation improves in Iraq.””
I’d be careful with sweeping generalizations, there are about as million Vietnamese in Orange County that still want to crank operation Dewey Canyon 4 up.
“here are significant variations between groups, though no group favors an open-ended commitment. Fifty-seven percent of Sunnis favor withdrawal in six months, with another 34 percent favoring it within a year. Shias are more evenly divided between six months (36%) and a year (38%). Few Shias favor two years (20%) or an open-ended commitment (5%). Only a third of Kurds favor withdrawal within a year or less, but two-thirds favor withdrawal within two years or less (11% six months, 24% one year, 34% two years). Thirty-one percent of Kurds favor an open-ended commitment.”
Good morning Scarecrow and FDLers.
Who’s putting those numbers forward? It seems like a egregious underestimation in light of the 2003 Johns Hopkins epidemiological study.
Details, details.
“As compared to January 2006, there has been, overall, a growing sense of urgency for withdrawal of U.S.-led forces. In January, respondents were only given three options—six months, two years, and an open-ended commitment. In September, the one-year option was added, since it had been nearly a year since the last time they were asked. While in January 70 percent favored withdrawal within two years (35% six months, 35% two years), now— approximately a year later—71 percent favor withdrawal within a year (37% six months, 34% one year).
Support for an open-ended commitment has dropped from 29 percent to 9 percent.”
kurds, possibly sunnis (now) - any minority that thinks it will be worse under a shi’a rule i suppose.
still, i’m not disagreeing. but rather than listen to our own thinking on the matter, i think we have an obligation to listen to iraqis. that is why i was wondering about recent polls.
“More broadly, 79 percent of Iraqis say that the United States is having a negative influence on the situation in Iraq, with just 14 percent saying that it is having a positive influence. Views are especially negative among the Sunnis (96% negative), and the Shias (87% negative). However, a plurality of Kurds (48%) say that the United States is having a positive influence, while just 34 percent say its influence is negative.”
Like that’s gonna happen given the level of violence. Hell’s bells and codfish, the reporters have basically left; ain’t no pollster (you could trust) about to show their faces there.
It sounds like McCain got his line from Cheney and fumbled the delivery.
There is not enough left of him to function even as a mouthpiece, if he
needs correcting by the likes of holy Joe, his is a goner. I hope the
pukes celebrate all day, the country hates this war almost enough to try
another brand.
The Kurds are agitating for independence and they USA is keeping them on a tether so that they can use the devide and conquer approach, but will not support a Kurdish state.
Wonder why that is? Why won’t we support self determination of indigenous people?
Central Americans know. Because our corporations want what belongs to the people.
“While many commentators have expressed concern that the withdrawal of U.S. forces would weaken or undermine the nascent Iraqi government, a modest majority of Iraqis believes that a commitment to withdraw would strengthen it. Asked, “If the US made a commitment to withdraw from Iraq according to a timetable, do you think this would strengthen the Iraqi government, weaken it, or have no effect either way?” 53 percent said that it would strengthen the government, while just 24 percent said it would weaken the government. Twenty-three percent believed that it would have no effect either way.”
good point.
sigh.
1,786 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Raven and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“…there are about a million Vietnamese in Orange County who still want to crank Operation Dewey Canyon 4 up.”
Yesterday Obama gave us a sound bite to carry through the general election and into the war trials to come and it’s appropriate here: NOT THIS TIME!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND NEVER FORGET…THEY AIN’T GUNNA GET AWAY WITH IT AGAIN…NOT THIS TIME!!!
” Asked whether they think “the U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq or to remove all its military forces once Iraq is stabilized,” 77 percent of respondents say that the United States plans to have permanent military bases. This view is held by a majority of Kurds (58%), as well as Shias (73%) and virtually all Sunnis (97%).
Perhaps more significant, approximately the same number—78%—believe that “If the new Iraqi government were to tell the United States to withdraw all of its forces within six months,” the United States would refuse to do so. Again, this view is held by a majority of all groups—64 percent of Kurds, 76 percent of Shias and 96 percent of Sunnis. “
Was I the only one who heard the reporter this morning on Washington Journal (from Newsweek?) who said that some Iraqi’s are “nostalgic” for the days of Saddam Hussein?
Look, the best choice to lead this country is becoming more evident every day.
Indeed, it’s not even close anymore.
McCain is a joke, and the example above should be devastating to his campaign. It won’t be since he grills wonderful baby back ribs.
Sen Clinton is a good candidate who has made some bad decisions (war votes, campaign strategies, etc.) that she can’t overcome.
Selise,
How do you feel about the recent polling data cited?
Living in CA after I got out of the Navy in 75 I was contacted by some Vietnamese folks who wanted to go back and continue the fight with the North. No thanks, had enough of that shit. I guess they’re just like the old Batista supporters from Cuba who still want to go back and reclaim their land.
It was a perfectly fine post!
but I for one was looking forward to your take on the Philadelphia speech, too.
Although Obi understand “plotick” he comes off like a thinker and not a sleazy triangulating pol (although he may be).
Both Mc and Hill read as politicians not doubtabouddit.
Hill is a smart gal with baggage.
Mc is senile
What’s the choice here?
I hope Norske is right, I think Obama can force a more thoughtful
campaign through the media filter if the screwball Clintons would
just go home, wherever that is, and count their millions from all
their hedge fund pals. We have work to do.
Phil Donahue will be on C-Span’s Q&A on Sunday at 8:00 p.m. EDT (on Iraq War - missed specifics).
Elliott @ 48 -
Indeed he did….. and who could blame them for feeling that way?
I took out the bad hair kitty. I’m 30 words over. Don’t tell Jane.
I may do something on Obama a little later. I loved the speech. It’s more powerful reading it than watching it.
The number I used came from an Iraqi organization, IIRC.
I’ve seen the higher number as well, and agree with you it’s probably more accurate.
Ah, that’s the missing piece. Do you have a link for the Iraqi poll?
i’d like a link.
ah, but you make every word count.
yea:
http://www.worldpublicopinion......8;lb=hmpg2
all you do is google: IRAQI PUBLIC OPINION
OT: Senator Clinton is going to Michigan. I believe her strategy will be to blame Obama for the voters not having their votes count:
Clinton to Fly to Michigan in Push for Revote
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.....r-re-vote/
Thanks much. I’ve added the link.
I have to say I really do wonder about McCain’s cognitive ability.
Check the latest from http://thinkprogress.org/
great report, but i think it is more than 2 years old.
Here’s what I wrote last night about that speech:
The mountaintop got a little closer today.
Thank you for all your excellent work.
What we dolts out here do without the FDL front pagers?
We’d be in the dark.
in the last thread, wigwam posted this link to a compilation of choice quotes about Obama’s speech from newspaper editorials from across the country.
I think it is a combination of the fact that he is dumb as a post (very near the bottom of his class at the military academy) and the fact that he has abandoned all of his principles for his campaign. Key is the link to the fact that he made the Iran/Al Queda error at least three times in the past two days. The video here where he is corrected by Lieberman is one. Click my name for a link to a CNN video where he is not corrected by Lieberman. Think Progress had a link yesterday to a Hugh Hewitt interview where he said the same thing. He not only is wrong, it takes repeating the mistake three times before any of the lapdogs running around with him realize it and try to correct him.
Digging a little, I did find this 2006 Andrew Cockburn piece:
which does appear to lend some credence to the 180,000 number. I skimmed it, but don’t have the time to read it closely right now.
are you pissed off?
i haven’t seen a recent poll. on the other hand, i have made an exhaustive search either. i’d welcome a recent link, if anyone has one. that is all.
So it is, but what do you think has happened since then which would change those numbers?
They came out of the woodwork against Kerry too.
nothing that i know of. but i’m not in iraq and i’m not an iraqi. are you saying that i shouldn’t wish to see recent data?
so who does the rebuttle speach for the democrats?
whoever it is needs to answer the president’s claims “the war was worth it” needs to do the following;
1) repeat lie for lie the reasons that brought us into war
2) they nust demonstrate the real costs of the war, not only lives, not only treasure, but the hope for peace, and the failure it produced, making it far more difficult, near impossible to win the are against terrorism
3) can the vice president a flat out liar, point out that the anyone who claims “Iraq invasion is a spectacular success” is a moron, point out the man is actually still claiming there were sadam/al qaeda ties even in the face of the pentagon calling him a liar
4) point out the the president’s war has placed our country’s economomy at the hands of our enemies, and that this our economy is because of this man lying us into war
5) there are tons more but I want to publish before we have a new thread posted
The other day someone here said 3 million.
I’ll believe that George “return-on-success” Bush believes he’s been successful when he brings the troops hope. Till then, he’s talking shit that even he doesn’t believe.
Last year’s poll:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/se.....1other.htm
but this is incorrect
they lost the seat because of bush, because they don’t want another rubber stamping republican, because they understand the republicans can only make everything worse
we are loosing the dynamic when we allow them to define the reasons for their loss
Discussing the Obama speech and dissecting whether Very Important Pundit A was correct in saying he threw grandma under the bus is far more important than talking about what happened in Iraq or was said by McCain or whispered by Liarman.
get with the program, pups. /s
Here’s a January 2008 article that summarizes polls of Iraqi public opinion over time.
there is a quote from the president where he claimed we would only be there as long as they wanted us there
that if they asked us to leave, we would
we really need that quote right about now, we need to throw that right in his clueless face
Wow! The whole Middle East would fall like dominoes, cutting us off from vast resources. And then where would we be?
Right. Did they cite any source for this?
Good morning, Scarecrow. As attaturk limned it earlier, it’s national shame day, the 5th Crappy Anniversary of our senseless, murderous, blundering Iraq war. No amount of incoherent ignorant bluster by McBush, or lying by George W. Bush later today about costs & spreading democracy can change that.
From the Seattle P-I lead editorial a friend just passed along:
Iraq War a Collosal Failure
“Nearly five years into a war that might drag on for decades, Vice President Dick Cheney visited Iraq and declared, “If you look back on those five years, it has been a difficult, challenging but nonetheless successful endeavor.” Really, Mr. Vice President? How so?…..On Monday, when Cheney did his victory lap/public relations tour around Baghdad, the Los Angeles Times reported 52 Iraqis and two U.S. soldiers died as a result of bombs and mortars that wounded more than 80 people. Perhaps the vice president didn’t have the chance to visit with the families of the six children who were also killed that day.”
selise — thanks for the catch; however, in the last few days, I did see a new poll of Iraqi sentiments, more or less consistent with what SanderO said — it’s out there.
No, we get a lot of people tossing around figures.
There also is a quote that this is the “land of the free and the home of the brave”!
perfect, thanks.
looks like the most recent one was aug/sept 2007 (i think i read about that one when it was released), so that’s probably why i haven’t seen anything more recent.
much appreciate the link.
OT. Sir Arthur C. Clarke, RIP.
Agree they lost because of Bush, but that wasn’t the point.
McCain seemed to actually forget who Oberweis was, or that he had supported his immigration policy, which he was now refuting when he had just campaigned for him just a few weeks ago.
oh, ok. well then, i’ll go looking for it.
see you-all later… gotta go make some more coffee. *g*
raven, it would seem all the brave have migrated to the lake and the other centrist blogs, I refuse to call us leftist, we represent the majority, we are centrists
also, I gave you a link a while ago with which of our public servants served and which did not
it is illuminating to say the least, the republican brand is nothing but a lie, it’s not even deception with smoke and mirrors, it’s just a lie
Iirc, at some time you mentioned you are from NC; willing to share general direction? Split my time between SE and SW ends of the state.
don’t forget the chocolate cookie
cruel reminder.
the refrigerator dough is long gone. :(
hmmm… maybe i will make some more. :)
roger
oh, can we stop calling it a surge already?
we need to call it the lie that it was;
:first of all, it wasn’t a surge and the president knew it wasn’t a surge, do not refer to it as a surge, it was an escalation and it is a clear, unadulterated failure”
that’s what the democrats need to do
Selise; forget the link; I owe you coffee, IIRC.
This should be a day when the Nation questions why no one from the Bush family is willing to serve in Bush’s war. Unfortunately, the question will never be raised. Perhaps the MSM is unaware that no Bush serves.
Even Prince Harry served. Is the Bush family more royal than that?
Perris,
Nothing he says means a thing. He is a proven liar and adding one more matters not.
The fact of the matter is that he wanted to attack this country and plunder it and look like some sort of hero.
He will not admit to making a mistake. Do you recall that question in the debate?
The man is a asshole and you can’t shame him and his buds in congress and industry care only for the money they are making and the power they are wielding.
The Dems have given him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning and then proven to be spineless in the face of THOUSANDS of lies and misdeeds.
Why the dems caved is of as much concern as his odious behavior.
Recall how the Rs shut the gov down when they were pissed?
Why don’t the D’s shut the gov down until we get some accountability?
Why?
Zogby has McCain ahead of Obama now. The Clintons’ destruction strategy is working.
Yes I’m a North Carolinian. I live in a small rural area, between Greensboro, and Raleigh. Don’t actually live in what most would call “the city”.
when was that poll taken?
and after listening to Zogby lately, I’m beginning to question how scientific his method is anyway.
In the “Better than Nuttin’” category:
A caller on Washington Journal said something to the effect that he thought there should be a “selective” draft for the sons/daughters of the people who got us into this. IIrc, the mention of romney’s sons also factored into the comment. ;-)
Didn’t think there were any “small rural areas” left in that neck of the woods. *g* Fond memories of drives between Greensboro and Chapel Hill/Raleigh when I was at university (which likely makes us in the same age range). Pleased to make your acquaintance. :-)))
Mornin’ NCinians! I grew up in Boone, went to college in Raleigh. Drove that stretch many times.
And then someone will suggest, in all seriousness, that ‘family’ businesses owned by public figure’s families should not be allowed to profit from wars supported by their politician relatives … and then, someone will suggest that ‘windfall’ profits associated with war (read ‘oil’ in the current situation) should be ‘harvested’ from such companies as would happily grow fat whilst the nation and the people are daily losing lives and ‘treasure’ to such an extent as to begger the nation and demoralise the people ….
That could only happen in a genuine democracy, of course. (broad hint and BIG grin!)
Still with us or moved on to other locations? Beautiful state but still waaaaaay too red politically.
We’ve been able to piece together “a University” from the Emmylou discussion :)
BlueStateRedHead @ 3:
I do believe that’s the first time I’ve ever seen anyone put “intelligence” and “McCain” in the same sentence, and I live in Arizona. My congratulations to you!
Pleased to make your aquaintance too!
It seems strange that they can’t realize who far they are from reality. All their attempts to decide for the others how they should react in accordance to their own logic indicate a serious communication problem. The Iraqis and the Iranians don’t think as we think we should think, sad for us but we have to acknowledge it in order to allow a solution. One deals with the confrontations that he has and not with those he wished to have.
New Priorities Vigil
Find one near you.
Cure for wet candles at a rainy vigil…small penlite flashlight in a sandwich bag.
Think I was at that one….”university” in the sense of lovers of Emmylou or those living in NC? I’ve made some half-@ rsed attempt to make a list of those of pups here, for no other reason than it gives me a small measure of comfort….and the fact there’s nothing left in the ol’ brain that could be vaguely described as extant memory. *g*
ah yes, the 5th Anniversary, traditionally that’s the one for disconnection notices right ?
Boston Globe
Mornin’ All
OT? I don’t think so. I want to share the words of Eve Carson’s father. Eve was the young woman killed two weeks ago in Chapel Hill:
well color me undercaffeinated - my link above is to an 06 Globe article (not that conditions have improved since then), apologies to all
Thanks so much for posting this info. There’s a vigil @ the corner of Lincoln & Rose in Venice. Just signed up to be there.
Obama gives a speech today on Iraq and the economy. His website says ‘the program’ starts at 11am, so I’m not sure when exactly he’ll speak but I’m hoping it gets as much attention as yesterday’s speech. There will be a sharp contrast between him and Bush.
I think it’s in West Virginia
yes, thank you thank you -
Central Texans - there’s a vigil in Georgetown tonight - starts at 7:30
In GA , now. Red part of red state.
i’ll try, but i don’t know if i can. *g*
i’m like a drug addict with the links.
What an amazing comment. Thanks for passing this along Raven.
If you can’t win by playing by the rules, then cheat. It is the Clinton mantra.
Yea, he and his family are wonderful.
Bush to celebrate the Crappy Anniversary with a speech at the Pentagon, should start in a few minutes.
You’re welcome, and thanks to you and all here for what you do for me every day. Going now to stand in front of my critters local office and work for peace. I’ll miss y’all but will return later to hear about your efforts.
Most of the Vietnamese I know are rabidly anti-communist. In this day and age when the “Communist” agenda as such has basically collapsed. But you will find this mind set anywhere you go in the Vietnamese community. If you are unfortunate enough to have arrived recently from Vietnam you will be looked at with suspicion unless you have long standing friends here or relatives.
Well, that was achingly lovely. And uplifting.
The descriptions of Eve’s character and what she had to offer were enough to tear your heart out. And definitely on-thread when you think of what all those (Americans *and* Iraqis) who’ve been killed and maimed could have contributed to the world. That’s a price beyond counting.
MarieRoget -
Take care of yourself and thank you!
It’s important to recognize you are talking about the Vietnamese community here in the states.
Moron Chimp on CSPAN - in 2003, US began operation iraqi freedum. 5 years in, there’s an understandable debate about the war. the answers r clear to me, removing saddam was the correct decision - we can win. (clapping for the troops)
My local paper covered the goof on page A10, right opposite the continuation of Obama’s highly-praised speech on racial issues. “McCain errs in confusing two groups. After saying Iran was aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq, he corrected himself, asserting he had meant Shiites.”
Not quite true of course. He didn’t “correct himself,” he WAS corrected and he stated it several times before, meaning it was no slip of the tongue.
In the clip, he doesn’t even say “shiites” — he says he means “extremists.” He has no idea what he was talking about.
Raven, thank you for sharing those incredibly well-framed words, which, spoken or written by a father, who choosing to see beyond profound grief, has pointed to the genuine promise of a generation which is primed to succeed where our’s has lost it way. Truly, it is our children’s world, now, and therefore, our duty to bequeath to them, as whole and sustainable as we may ‘make’ it, ‘tomorrow’ and by our example, both of good and ill, of success and failure, to allow them to look back on ‘today’ as something of which they are not ashamed, but rather as a time of people, some of whom were parents, who began to understand …
Yes, I did mean here (the U.S.)
Go for it, bluejeansntshirt- give that critter hell.
If I wasn’t sure before how to make time for going to a vigil @ 7 p.m. tonight, watching GWB lie about Iraq right now on CNN would have been the clincher…
nothing to say. just thank you.
It is amazing how closely our adventure in Iraq follows the story line of our adventure in Vietnam. Both beginnings were based on lies. When the end was clear in Vietnam, as it is in Iraq, government voices claimed our leaving would create a domino effect after which the whole of Southeast Asia would be communist.
There was pain after our departure. Pol Pot killed hundreds of thousands of Cambodians, but it is not clear our staying would have stayed him. Many South Vietnamese were “reeducated” an uncomfortable but not fatal experience. We are told our leaving Iraq invites chaos. It will be bloody. Arabs see killing as superior to reeducation, but that will stop probably sooner rather than later. We face very expensive oil or perhaps oil shortages which I take personally since I heat my house with oil, but that is hardly reason to keep this atrocity going.
Patrick Cockburn, on the legacy of George W. Bush:
http://www.independent.co.uk/o.....97788.html