Hearing Obama’s ringing words at Philadelphia’s Constitution Center today put me in mind of another great speech by another great speaker: Abraham Lincoln’s Cooper Union address.
Readers, I invite you to compare and contrast these speeches, both by sons of Illinois (and both of whom were born elsewhere), both of which deal with race, change, and the need to reconcile differences (peacefully or otherwise). Much has changed since then, yet many of the same issues still need addressing.
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HI, Phoenix Woman!
Yeah, ’bout time for some Abe!
Hello, everyone!
By the way, another thing everyone could do would be to write/call your favorite news media outlet and ask them why they’re not giving as much attention to John McCain’s and the GOP’s ties to prominent right-wing preachers John Hagee and Rod Parsley as they are to Obama’s minister. It’s been mostly the blogosphere that’s talked about McCain and Hagee, whereas the MSM in comparison has barely noticed McCain’s Hagee connection. Just check out the first page of the Google search for “McCain Hagee” and you’ll see what I mean. Meanwhile, the first five links on the Google page for “Obama Wright” are all MSMers.
FISH!!
Oh, sorry, wrong Abe.
I am not a democrat (rather a radical centrist independent). But, this speech sealed the deal for me. I just joined the Obama campaign. I posted this on one of their blogs:
Howard Dean apologized for his comment in 2003, ‘to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks” at Cooper Union. It was a great speech, I was there. He was honored to make this particular speech in the venue that Lincoln made his.
The issue of race will not be addressed under a leader from the present day Republicans. I’m very proud of what Obama said today, and I hope the country will embrace it.
Phoenix Woman!
I noticed there were a number of commenters raising that point this morning at the WaPo0 with comments to Richard Cohen’s prattle about Senator Obama and the Rev. Mr. Wright.
Not that it will penetrate his thickness but folks are trying anyway.
So, did Lincoln deliver the speech under duress to save his campaign? I’m just wondering.
And BobbyG, I can’t believe you’re impressed by Matthews’ reaction. This is the guy who said “If you don’t cry during a Barack Obama speech, you’re not an American.” It would have been bigger news if he hadn’t gotten all gooey over it.
The speech today was the result of the failure of the second reconstruction in the 1960s, not the fault of those who tried, but those
who fought against it by creating the “modern” Republican party. Obama is
so right on this he scares hell out of the consensus that coalesced around
the radio baritone racism of Ronald Reagan. Lets just see if this country
finally has the stones to face itself this time… doesn’t happen often,
only the second time in my lifetime, probably won’t see another after this.
PW, I was at work and did not see the speech. Is that the whole speech or just an excerpt?
What was surprising was the unanimity. Tweetie loves to stir shit up, and get the cynicism flying. None evident today.
Hmmm… I’m listening to Rachel on AA and watching her live on MSNBC… ;-)
1,794 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Phoenix Woman:
Yo Citizen Phoenix Woman…I’m sooooo glad that you gave us this comparison because, in fact, this election is our last chance to finally end our 148 year Civil War. The political circumstances of minority government and the institutionalization of minority rule through counting a significant population for purposes of the census but disenfranchisin’ ‘em at the ballot box continue to this day. And how ironic and maybe inevitable that it should be a Black man who pulls us above the politics of race to legitimize class-based solutions to the social and economic problems posed by an economic system and philosophy that has long out lived any argument for its existence.
Radical Reconstruction may finally be allowed to work.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GO UNTIL AFTER THEY ARE TRIED AND CONVICTED THIS TIME!!
Welcome aboard BobbyG! It’s been, and is going to continue to be, a long and historic ride.
me too. i guess that the tv show was taped earlier
Actually, I think it’s the other way around…!
Trying to watch Rachel on tv & listen to her on AA is going to be a challenge. What a dilemna but a great way shake off those late afternoon energy slowdowns.
Jay Rosen explain Obama for Wolf Blitzer: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..92139.html
Comment over on WaPo:
Obama’s giving a major speech tomorrow in WV on Iraq and the Economy too.
Christy and PW -
Please forgive this digression: In breaking news, MSNBC is reporting that Arthur C. Clarke died. More details later…
I didn’t think I’d be saying this, but, I’m enjoying this new show from David Gregory… Maybe because he’s drowned out by the other panelists… I like three of the five…!
You are right. I missed that whole ‘LIVE’ thing on the tv
Still reading Lincoln’s speech and will comment on it in a bit
cspan is reairing Obama’s speech at 7est.
Chris,
I don’t know you, but if you support Hillary, you’re falling in with those who make cheesy claims that she could only get all teary over the thought of her own collapsing campaign. If you’re a Democrat, it’s beneath you. If you’re a Republican, we expect it of you and it has no effect on us, whichever Democratic candidate we favor.
I just can’t stand seeing Scarborough’s nasty mug that much
Yupper. Same as always.
I hope Obama will continue to make the republics look like the insane clown posse they are.
me too but something about Gregory unsettles me…not sure what it is..ok back to reading
me too …
He loves W.
A waste of time. Blitzer has made cluelessness into an art form.
It’s his WASPy haircut… and his frat boy mentality for me.
Insane Clowns deserve more respect than to be compared to Republics.
Maybe memories of him dancing back-up to MC Rove and enjoying it like it was funny?
He’s still buying that baloney that a Royal Member of the Bush Family would have a beer with him.
hi !!!
You’re right, my bad.
Obi was smart to not take any questions from the press after his oratory.
The man has an incredible way to frame the issues and reach out and call attention to bigotry with hostility.
If he can use that skill to advance some progressive value and programs, there may be a chance to save this place.
That didn’t help, however, I chalk it up to his WH stenography… Ironically, we seem to have gotten our fervent desire to have F*cker replaced by Rachel, I’ll take 1/5th anyday…1 8-)
…and again at 10:05pm eastern
Well that would do it but it’s his eyes that unsettle me. Still can’t put a finger on what it is, but it’s not good
I’m really bad about comparing and contrasting things..but, Lincoln’s speech is both confrontational and defensive IMHO. He points out all of the faults of the opposition and then demands that they provide proof that they are right.
Obama’s speech is not defensive and not confrontational; rather, he creates the common ground in a non-threatening but firm manner. His flair for diplomacy is mindboggling. He speaks the truth, which is why it hits the emotions.
i didn’t see that (good thing) I have jack ass radar, so there it is
his eyebrows are larger than his eyes…
He is an imposter.
This is probably just a statistical aberration
American Research Group Bush Approval
Or maybe they took it when people realized the Economy is really screwed?
That’s exactly it.
Cool! Unlike McCain, he knows that Al-Qaeda and Iran do not mix.
Obama seems to have the ability to take whatever they throw him and turn it into something positive. I’m kind of in awe. And that doesn’t happen to me often.
Is that 18%?
Forgive the continued digression, all, but I must share this quotation:
“It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.” – Arthur C. Clarke.
No problem for Bush since Harry and Nancy are determined to prop him up.
http://www.afn.org/~dks/race/clinton-e6.html
Yup… Anybody who thinks Barack’s an empty suit is going to have to plug their ears and close their eyes this week.
It’s a shame that we’re still in a primary though. Would love to have all forces ahead against McCain now.
That’s true so far but can he handle it when it’s coming in rapid fire from all directions? That’s what the Republics will do to him.
Yes he can.
Me too must have been taped earlier
RIP Arthur C. Clarke…
http://www.reuters.com/article…..3220080318
Well.. Right now he has it coming from all the Repubs AND the Clintonites… So I would say he’s taking it from all directions right now. And I would say he’s performing quite well.
He’s going to make McCain look like an old, tired, uninformed nothing in debates. JMO
So glad Obama’s speech is going to reply in it’s entirety. I’m looking forward to standing up and cheering.
It’s amazing how Big Dog talked about the two Americas back in ‘95 and several of the things Obama talked about today.
I don’t think the Republics have really started on him yet.
The MSM’s nightly news coverage of Obama’s speech was predictably abysmal. The common meme was that this was a “make or break” speech for his campaign.
Excuse me? Obama was addressing a minor issue that the MSM hypocritically manufactured into a falsely huge issue for lack of a better “horse race” topic. Obama made it into a statement of what America and his presidency would be about. Good for him.
What townfolk could say they religiously agreed with every statement by their pastor, rabbi or priest. How many American Catholics vehemently disagree, and walk with their feet, over the Church’s absolute ban on birth control and abortion. How many Baptists claim that Islam is the devil’s scourge and should be wiped by war from the face of the earth. Disagreements among Jewish communities is common. The hate-speech of the Hagees and Falwells is too numerous to comment further.
The MSM’s vision of America seems as superficial and uninformed as George W. Bush’s.
I thought he threw his grandmother under a bus, frankly. I found that disturbing.
I have been impressed with how much better for the most part, Obama’s campaign team runs their shop than Clinton’s. I may have to revise my previously very low opinion of overpaid presidential campaign advisors & consultants.
Certainly there are parallel threads running through both speeches. certainly invoking the founding fathers and their purpose in the finding of the U.S. as well as the passing of the race issue on to the next generation.
Probably not but McInsane should be the one worrying. Obama is so much more intelligent and presents himself so much better. I still don’t understand why the republics are going to nominate crazy train. IMO he’ll be the easiest to beat. His domestic is sorely lacking, with the way things are going with our economy I don’t see any confidence in him whatsoever. The republics don’t even think he’s a real conservative.
I’m afraid that’s too true. This will make the 2000 race seem clean. I suspect that’s one reason Rove is out of the White House and operating from his Bat Cave at the would be Bush library; the better to orchestrate dirty tricks with less scrutiny.
huh? I’m a bit confused why this speech was posted.
ahhh okay sorry
(would help if I had finished reading it)
Gregory looks very much like a Flintstone.
-G
Not necessarily. McCain appeals to the uninformed voter who does not realize that he is as conservative as he is.
Romney, as a Mormon, was suspect and looked too plastic and that was combined with his having been Gov of Mass with all the liberal positions even though he tried to disavow everything.
Huckabee was too populist on economic issues for the Wall St crowd.
To know Rudy was to dislike him.
Which leaves McCain. The (not-so) Maverick candidate. He will not be all that easy to beat as the TradMed will do all in their power to prop him up.
Scarborough is in denial.
Rachel just talks circles around scarface, huh? He just sounds like an idiot
Did you all read TBogg’s Tar Baby diary. Don’t miss it, it’s brilliant.
cspan is reairing Obama’s speech at 7est.
Yes, and right afterward at about 7:40 PM EST, they are having viewers call in about it.
Al Qaeda is taking over Iran! Shiite Saudi Arabia is threatening Christian Israel and the Bhuddists in India are ready to nuke the Zoroastrian state of Pakistan.
-John McNuts
But oh so different. Just because of who Obama is, he is in a unique position to talk to balacks, whites, immigrants.
Hopefully those in the military believe him when he says we’ll stay in Iraq, for one hundred years. The guy is nuts and doesn’t have the ability to hide it. He came unravelled when he was asked about Kerry. I don’t see him making it to the election without a complete meltdown on camera.
The R callers will have had time to digest their email with the talking points by then.
he’s making a lot of oddly senile-sounding misstatements these days also … the al-quaida/iran thing was way over the top
Eye opening.
He is an idiot!
how is admitting that you have a family member that has been known to say racist things throwing her under the bus? It connected with me because I do have people in my family that say shit I find nauseating but they are a part of me and I still love them. that’s not throwing under the bus (IMHO), that’s being honest and honesty that many americans can attest to.
If Obama talks about race his numbers go down. America doesnt want to hear it.
It’s the prominent browbone
…in reference to the Clinton speech linked above at #55.
well, it didn’t have that impact on me … i have a issues with some of my family too, but i wouldn’t opportunistically air the family dirty laundry in front of millions of people.
katherine at 55
thanks
Matthews up on MSNBC replay of Hardball – if you missed it earlier. Chris is enchanted with Obama’s speech and all but endorsed him.
I knew Abe Lincoln. Abe Lincoln was a friend of mine. Senator, you’re no Abe Lincoln.
I found that part of his speech the most appealing. He talked about his own experience and just laid it out for the American people. I’ll bet it made a lot of people feel really shabby.
No worries, you’ll never be President.
Yet.
I was it as drawing a paradox between anger/racism in both the black community (Wright) and the white community (his grandmother), two people who are personal connections and echo some of the feelings in both communities. It was a powerful paradox.
But people will get from it what they will. Throwing under the bus…you would have to make a better case to substantiate that besides that he mentioned her in his speech
I found that part of the speech refreshingly honest.
I like your optimism!
Are there trolls coming out of the woodwork, or is it just the wind rattling around in my brain?
Bob in HI
dirty laundry? See that is why we haven’t had the race conversation, too many of us want to keep it as our dirty little family secret. That has to stop or there won’t be opportunities to share our views and discuss them ‘openly’
Dino their pet dinosaur?
i dunno, i didn’t find it the least bit inspirational. he had a chance to really discuss the bigger issue of race in america and it just say that much to me
Your THAT old? Dang, you must have known Burger King when he was a prince? …you fart dust? *g*
Yawn.
Daily Obama bashing by RF.
-G
Digg this – I chose the Lincoln portrait icon.
With a Republican, it is often difficult to separate ideology from pathology.
NPB, I saw it earlier, I must say that Obama did an excellent job, Tweety reminds me of a stopped clock, he can be right at least once…!
discussing racism doesn’t necessarily mean point to some one and saying racist does it?
But racism begins at home around the dinner table. At any rate that’s what he felt he wanted to do and he has said in the past how much he loved his grandmother. That’s good enough for me.
No, I find it to be the Hanna-Barbera cartoony mouth.
-G
true dat
Did you read or see it?
OK moderator…where’s the post…geez LouEEZ this gets old!!
Yeah, but I look young for my age. :-)
Now that is a very good line. Which I plan to use extensively.
DING!
no kidding, I’m an atheist and was nearly thrown out of girl scouts in fourth grade by refusing to say the pledge of allegiance… and i don’t pander ….
No, but I saw Michelle the other day and she was very impressive. I think the wrong Obama is running!
Did you all see “Crash”. I thought it was brilliant. And it adressed the subtle racism in most Americans. The fear that Obama refrenced that his grandmother felt is real for many Americans. We liberals can deny it but then the problem doesn’t get resolved.
Citizen Moderator: WTF??
he didn’t call her a racist, he said she admitted to being afraid of black men and of uttering things that made Obama cringe. There are some in my family that are flat out racist and others that stereotype because it’s all they have ever known. There is a difference between saying something racist and being one.
OT – RieszFischer, i think you were trying to ask me a question yesterday (that i missed until after you had left the thread?)…
Shakespeare sagely observed that “a jest’s prosperity lies in the ear of him that hears it.” The same could be said of a speech. That is what makes assessing what virtually everyone here, including me, thinks was an excellent speech, will mean to the swing voters in the upcoming Democratic primaries and this fall’s general election.
I’ve heard drinking the blood of young virgins keeps one looking young *g*
Kiddin..
You stealing my lines too??? Hey now!!!!
When many in this Nation have been moved by a courageous speech by a man who set aside politics and spoke from the heart, would this blog continue to snipe and trash this wonderful moment.
I rarely come here any more, FDL seems more angry than many other places and I have not heard why many support Hillary and feel that she and Bill will be the better President.
I only hear Obama snidely trashed and good political talk isnt allowed. Its sad.
Yes, it was in the Media Corruption thread. You implied there were war criminals in the Clinton administration:
And I asked who they were.
i’m just saying that discussing racism does not need to include pointing to other people and using them as an example of racism, subtle or not so subtle
No, just borrowing! {looks sheepish}
As a political speech, i would say it sucked but in a historical context, it was excellent. If anything, people have gotten to know who he is and that will assist them in making their selection now and in the GE (if he is the nominee)
ok, I can accept that.
Well, at least you’re self critical and oh so ‘umble. FDL needed a Uriah Heep character. I just didn’t realize how little.
that’s a view white view of racism, i don’t disagree, but its not the definition that you’d get from most blacks … racist statements come from racism
And there’s a difference between labeling someone and describing behaviour. And he described the behaviour.
cite your sources or its plagarism *g*
well, you could see he was struggling on how to bring up difficult issues in a thoughtful manner … sometimes, however, playing it safe doesn’t make for the best speeches… the letters of MLK from the jail in birmingham address the idea that racism is against the core of american values was more enlightening
Indeed.
It could be that he talked to his grandmother (who is very ill) and had her permission to use her as an example. There was nothing nefarious about it (certainly not for political gain). People have complained that they didn’t know WHO onama was and now he has laid out who/what has made him and what his social beliefs. Sorry I just can’t understand you saying that he threw her under the bus
unless you have talked to every black ameerican in this country, your statement rings hollow and false
What I took from that was an example of someone he loved. And he loves his preacher, too, even though he does not agree with him always or see things from his perspective always.
Love.
Are you serious? Not to be rude, M’dear, but the large majority of commenters here prefer Obama to Hill… Sure poo is slung, but, no where near as much as Dkos or Huffpo…!
not the least but judgemental, are you?
Mostly mental.
I’m watching and enjoying Obama’s speech and it occurs to me that I like him when he is more passionate in his delivery. His delivery for this speech has less of that (so far). But, I think this was a conscience choice and a strategically brilliant one. In no way can anyone describe him as angry (which I’m sure that FoxNews was intending to do).
Tweety’s show reported that if you missed the speech, it is available on their website.
I am watching Hardball, and the concensus seems to be from everybody in the MSM that I’ve heard, other than possibly some of the wingnuts on Faux that I never watch, is that this was the most important speech on race since Rev. King’s “I had a dream” speech.
NorskeFlamethrower – There are no comments of yours in moderation.
To you they were more enlightening but to others, Obama speaks to where we are as a nation at this time.
i live in the ninth ward in new orleans and teach at the university with the highest number of black students in the state of louisiana … i do have some perspective to offer given that i do listen to my students, friends and neighbors
Norske, I hope you didn’t have a McCain moment and forgot to hit the send button!
-G
ah, well i *think* there are people from the clinton administration who may be guilty of crimes against humanity, including war crimes. and i think they should get fair trials, if after an investigation there is enough evidence to bring charges.
some of the crimes are;
1) the policy of extraordinary rendition, including kidnapping and taking people to egypt to be tortured and/or killed.
2) the embargo, collective punishment, and possibly the bombing of iraq. especially preventing the shipment of needed medicine, water treatment materials and other necessities that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraq children (5 years old and younger).
3) the arming of the KLA and the bombing of serbia – for example the bombing of the tv station.
stuff like that. i just want to hold democrats to the same standards we hold republicans.
does that answer your question?
I just re-read this and before I get a bit pissed could you clarify the bolded part. Are you saying that blacks can’t differentiate between a racist and someone who makes a racist statement but is not a racist?
That is very interesting. I would like to hear your perspective. I’m serious. Could you elaborate a little…? :)
OT, Where in the heck is punaise when ya want him?
punaise, this ones for you, wherever you are.
My Contempt For Joe Lieberman Is Infinite And Eternal.
i’ve been watching CNN, the reception is a bit more mixed there…
yes, but that is New Orleans and that is the south and blacks are not any more monolithic than whites, women, hispanics, etc. So until you have spoken to most of the 12% black population of this country, your statement is false
I forgot to bold it, but this is what I was referring to.
OHHhh, got my little Blogwhore in just in time!
no, i’m saying that from what i’ve been told that racist comments come from racism … and that every one is racist, it’s not something that’s a matter of degrees… i’m not implying anyting like that, i’m telling you what i’ve been told
but you extrpolated that to most blacks, not the blacks you have talked to in new orleans, there is a difference. It is blatantly false to make that claim, you don’t know how most blacks feel on this issue, we only know from what we have heard from some blacks.
selise:
1) I didn’t realize the Clinton administration participated in extraordinary rendition. Do you have a link?
2) The embargo of Iraq was under the U.N. I think it’s ridiculous to blame that on Clinton– they were trying to sanction Sadam Hussein.
3) The bombing of Serbia– do you really think we should have just stood by and allowed the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo to continue?
you know what i’m grateful for today?
my friends, the ones i know in person ……..we’re all different….for years, we all get together, we talk about all kinds of things, we don’t agree, we do agree, and in the process of sharing our insights on why we agree and disagree, we learn things….lotsa things…about our world and the things in it, and about each other by how we handle ourselves and how we express ourselves and in what we decide to share.
and sometimes, we influence each other enough that opinions are changed and guess what?we’re the better for it and bonds are deepened, because we have affected the deepest part of us—-our BRAINS……….
i’ve changed my friends and my friends have changed me.
how are the ’friends’ at firedoglake changing each other?
i am again appalled at how it’s only ok to have one opinion and if you don’t agree, the first thing out of someone’s mouth is JUSTIFY your point……..prove it.
ya know, you don’t always have to justify it, you just think that way, or believe that way.
you shouldn’t have to fucking bare your soul to have an opinion here.
this confrontational bullshit has ruined this blog.
i thought this was a progressive democratic blog……….not an obama only blog.
anyone disagreeing is kicked in the ass, i am thankful that my real world friends don’t act that way.
i don’t even think that y’all see how you’re acting, and that’s the part that really makes me feel queasy about the whole thing.
you’re fighting about people that you don’t even know, have never been to your house, have nothing to do with your life.
except that they’re running for president.
Anyone still there? I have the youtubie, but Mr. BSRH hates to watch things on my small screen.
So, does anyone know if there are plans to rebroadcast the speech? ideally on a regular network . OK. that was a stupid thought. On cable?
that is a wise post, except for one thing. anyone who has a memory and has been paying attention DOES know. enough. about “Hill”.
I don’t know about Obama, but I’m pretty certain what we’ll get with Clinton. and it’s NOT the change I personally am hoping for!
you are addressing this to whom?
No one is being kicked in the ass, it’s poo flinging at its worse. If someone makes a statement and is presenting it as fact, it is on them to back up the statement. If it is an opinion (I think, I feel, I beleive, IMHO, etc.) no proof needed maybe people want them to go further into discussion but no need to prove shit.
Google: Bill Clinton extraordinary rendition = 223,000+ hits.
It was just replayed on CSPAN so you may want to check the website to see when they will re-broadcast.
Hope that helps *G*
oops it’s on CSPAN now
Thanks for the link.
From the page you linked to:
1. clinton’s program of extraordinary rendition – jane mayer is where i first read about it.
2. the iraq sanctions were maintained by uk and usa insistence (against the objections of our allies). furthermore, the is evidence of a policy of collective punishment against the iraq people in an effort to force them to overthrow hussein. there’s a lot more, but in the end, i see no justification for denying the children of iraq needed medications or clean water to drink (especially after we had targeted their water treatment plants in bush 41’s war). have you seen the interview of madeline albright and leslie stahl on this?
3. i fail to see how condemning the arming of the KLA or the bombing of a television station is in any way indicating that i advocate “doing nothing.” on the contrary, i advocate doing a lot. just not those things.
a little torturing and a few murders is not excused by a lot of torturing and murders.
I’ll concede point 1.
On 3), I’m sorry but your position is not reasonable. The air strikes against Serbia were very limited and effective at stopping the bloodshed. You said “i advocate doing a lot. just not those things.”, but I doubt you can think of an effective way of stopping the Serbian military in any less invasive way than Clinton did.
In any case all of this is microscopic compared to the war crimes being committed in our name right now in Iraq. To bring them up in the same context, as if they were comparable, is ridiculous.
The difference in degree is huge. To pretend that there is some kind of balance between the two detracts from the seriousness of the atrocities that the Bush administration is guilty of. There is no comparison.
KO having the seminal conversation on the Philadelphia Speech with Rachel and Eugene.
Awesome.
Some more censorship???
Thanks.
hmmm, some key bits? Thx!
on this:
my understanding is that this statement is contradicted by the historical record – that is was only after our bombing that worst of the ethnic cleansing and mass murder occurred (as had been predicted by analysts prior to the bombing.
clinton only caused the deaths of a few hundred thousand iraqis. bush has caused the deaths of over a million and created 4.5 million refugees.
i am not equating the two.
i am saying that both, if crimes, should be investigated and charges should be filed. i see no reason to give clinton a pass because bush is so much worse. judge them both by the same standard of crimes against humanity – that is all i’m advocating.
why do you object to fair trials?
i hope c&l will post it for those of us without msnbc.
Keying on the Senator’s use of his own Grandmother’s, and Keith’s own Grandfather’s use of racial stereotypes as the generational ownership of the times. Framing the Reverend’s cultural position.
Buchanan will be made to pay for his ignorance, and soon.
Fineman up next.
And MSNBC online will have the KO rebroadcast by segment soon after the broadcast is over.
That was something, huh?
I don’t object to fair trials, don’t put words in my mouth. I object to you equating the deaths of children resulting from the oil for food program with the deaths of over 1 million civilians directly at the hands of the U.S. military, the torture of prisoners by the U.S. and the dishonesty that led to all of it. It’s very misleading to compare those two very different situations and use the comparison to imply that there is anything like moral equivalence between Bush and Clinton.
but i didn’t equate the crimes or the number of deaths. and i clearly stated that there is no equivalence.
what i did was say i thing think they both ought to get fair trials, if, after an investigation, there is enough evidence to bring charges for the crimes they have been accused of.
since you don’t object to fair trials for them both, i fail to see what the problem is.
Well, thanks for coming back to talk about it. Dang, you sure can argue. :-)
Heh, good one.
It was a powerful speech. And yet I’m troubled by at least one small part of it. How the next President deals with the problems of the Middle East will powerfully influence the future of America and the world. And the consequences of the Iraq War and peak oil and the growing financial power of Middle Eastern Sovereign Wealth Funds means that America won’t be able to get away with just trying to maintain the status quo. So I find it very disappointing, though not really surprising, that Obama felt the need to bow to the AIPAC lobby by saying:
“But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country – a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.
As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems – two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all.”
If Obama is really going solve “problems that confront us all”, he’s going to have deal with the reality that America’s one sided support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine has done much to alienate a billion Muslims.
But of course Clinton can’t catch up so Obama doesn’t need to “save his campaign”.