The people who get their knowledge of the world from watch FOX's 24 and who want excuses to beat up on brown people have long touted the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ("KSM" for short) as Proof That Torture Works. Doesn't matter that a host of persons specializing in the gathering of intelligence have shown scads of examples showing that torture doesn't work and is in fact counterproductive and breeds resentment and resistance -- the 24 fans point to the sole example they can find and "But KSM's case proves it can work!"
Except that, as the writers of the latest Washington Monthly explain, KSM's case doesn't prove what the torture apologists say it does:
What follows is a set of 37 short essays by writers from all over the political spectrum, from Bob Barr on the right to Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter on the left. You can find them all here, and I'll be highlighting a few of them throughout the week. In one of them, journalist Peter Bergen talks about the torture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed:
What is perhaps most astonishing of all is that the mistreatment of KSM and bin al-Shibh was entirely unnecessary. Before they were captured, they had explained the details of the 9/11 attacks in an April 2002 interview with Yosri Fouda, an Al Jazeera correspondent....The CIA provided summaries of the interrogations of KSM and bin al-Shibh to the 9/11 Commission. There is little or no difference between the account that KSM and bin al-Shibh freely volunteered to Fouda in the spring of 2002 and the version the commission published in its 2004 report. Nor was Fouda's reporting difficult to find: he hosted a one-hour documentary on Al Jazeera, wrote a long piece in London's Sunday Times, and coauthored a book, Masterminds of Terror, about KSM and bin al-Shibh. By the time CIA officials captured the pair, a full account of their operations was only a Google search away.
Obviously, then, it was unnecessary to waterboard KSM to find out what he knew about the 9/11 plot. What, though, of the administration's assertion that coercive interrogation techniques have saved American lives? To assess that claim, we must examine the details of other terrorist plots that KSM gave up after his capture, presented in a document the government released in 2006:
KSM launched several plots targeting the US Homeland, including a plot in late 2001 to have ... suicide operatives hijack a plane over the Pacific and crash it into a skyscraper on the US West Coast; a plan in early 2002 to send al-Qa'ida operatives to conduct attacks in the U.S.; and a plot in early 2003 to employ a network of Pakistanis ... to smuggle explosives into New York and to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and a bridge in New York.
It all sounds very frightening, except that there is no indication that these plots were ever more than talk.
In other words, not only was torture unnecessary, but it was actually counterproductive. KSM produced no new information under torture, only a litany of false confessions — maybe out of vanity, maybe in an effort to protect other al-Qaeda operatives. Who knows. What we do know is that torturing KSM did no good, sent hundreds of agents scurrying after phantoms, and has made his prosecution far more difficult than it needed to be.
As Kevin Drum urges, share this story with your friends and relations and anyone else who is seduced by the "KSM proved torture works" lie. In fact, it proves the opposite.
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hi PW
PW!
PW
You miss the point. Torture of KSM was revenge.
Torture of others, like al Libi, is to obtain false confessions.
The got exactly what they wanted.
Torture has already been banned. The ban must be enforced.
I’ve been saying as almost everyone here, we get LESS information when we torture, the information is NOT reliable, it’s hardly ever actionable and we could have gotten MORE information AND SAVED LIVES if we did not torture
and the administration knew this
the real purpose they adopted torture wsa to create and perpetuate fear and unrest
as every decision they made demonstrates, they never wanted “to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi’s”
they would have guarded the temples, they would have protected the infrastructure, THEY WOULD HAVE HIRED IRAQI’S TO REBUILD IRAQ
AND THEY WOULD HAVE SHOWN WE DO NOT TORTURE
they wanted unrest, they wanted insurgents, they did not want the Iraqis regaining power in Iraq
Imagine the resources wasted chasing down these fictions extracted from KSM, and how those resources might have been better used to protect America from actual threats.
Excellent post, Phoenix Woman. The saddest part of all? People in our nation who are arrested for crimes have admitted to crimes they didn’t commit and were not tortured (spent 6 hours being asked questions). For our government to say that torture works and is the best way to get information is ludicrous and they know it.
So, why would George Bush and Dick Cheney insist on having it as the law of the land then? It’s a stumper and all I can think of is they like the idea of hurting people and don’t care about Americans (who will now be tortured when caught outside or borders because we’re doing it) or our reputation around the world.
That is a great point. These false confessions are legitimizing what they’re doing in the waronterra. Sick.
imagine if we used a fraction of those resources toward the benefit of man
sorry, sometimes I am full of syrup
I think you’re right.
Why I never understood that before, I don’t know.
Please pardon the edits and clarifications.
and they cannot redefine what is and isn’t torture, they cannot unilaterally amend treaties entered by past administrations with the full faith of the united states of America
Someone I saw on CSPAN recently said local cops routinely torture or come close to it in order to extract false confessions so they can get convictions. Death penalty threat is very useful in that regard. Also noted that ex-military often go into “law enforecment,” so what they learn in the military, they apply in “civilian” life.
heading home, see all later
One of my favorite kinds of knowledge–once you hear it, it is so obvious that it immeditaely enters your knowledge set forever. Of course, you can’t be expected to know every obvious thing in advance of its being pointed out to you, which is why you didn’t know it before.
It has been pretty much proven that we paid bounties to people in Afghanistan to turn in “terrorists”. Many detainees at Gitmo claimed they were sold to America for many different reasons having nothing to do with terrorist activity (tribal disputes,unpaid debts etc.).
Torture is a good way to get “confessions” from innocent people. It is also a great way to create future real terrorists. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
They are liars. I think they made the whole GWOT up, just like they make up everything else. The Saudis were in on it. PNAC Neocons set the agenda, and away they went….new Pearl Harbor and all.
The whole torture thing is a form of mass intimidation and to make them look like they are serious…they aren’t serious…they have obtained false confessions that bolster their agenda. Now the economy is in shambles, and they are still in power. The dots are all there to connect…all of them.
30 retired Generals wrote bush a letter describing exactly why torture wasn’t a good idea.
Good Evening, PW.
I guess I should Thank You for the, uh, mild version of Torture photo.
True that many Americans get their news from Fox, but the folks here have a more complete understanding of the outrageous karma that we have taken on.
With all of the Rest Of The Bad News, financial and otherwise, that’s still a gut-wrenching image to come home to.
Yeah, it sucks.
Yeah, it hurts.
Yeah, ….yeah, yeah, yeah….
It just hurts.
And, we we wonder why people here get do teh fraticide?
It’s all perspective.
I think people here already don’t take Fox’s POV on the horror.
But, still, thanks for your efforts for keeping our feets to the fire.
:( and :).
Both Sides Now.
Oh, yeah, and they stole all the taxpayer money…and we want it back!
Expecting Bush to read it was a miscalculation on their part.
i’m afraid you’re correct.
my cousins, who i love dearly, recently complained about the airport hassles and waiting upon returning home after vacationing in europe. i made some comment about how i was just glad they were home and that they hadn’t ended up like the canadian who was sent to syria to be tortured.
the response from x was: “we have to protect ourselves”
me: “since when are innocent canadiens not “us”??
x: “just because he’s canadian doesn’t mean he’s anglo.”
i’m still in shock. it just breaks my heart.
Hey, future terrorists aren’t on W’s watch.
Unless he stays….Goddess forbid.
Neither is the coming Depression.
I’m persuaded that the purpose of torture was never to get information — though some of the torturers may have believed it was. The purpose of torture was to punish and instill fear, on the assumption that fear deters. This unfortunately requires that the torture be publicized; otherwise there is no announcement effect. I’m not sure that Cheney et al thought this part through, I imagine theyi expected to get the word out through unofficial channels, and it was certainly well known in Iraq if not here that we were torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
The point is that torture exactly fits the mindset of men like Bush and Cheney. It’s how they see the world. Kill or be killed.
Directive 51 anyone? See ya in camp. Think they’ll put us all together at least. I’d like to meet some of you.
Yes, I’ve been pretty shocked about the us vs. them outcome of post-9/11. So not me. But apparently so other ‘Merikuns.
Did you see on an earlier thread today that I was not talking about you? Was close to epu-land & I didn’t check back.
yes - thank you much. even left a reply (the content of which wasn’t important - just wanted you to know i saw your comment).
Check.
LS, the bad stuff W is leaving to his sucessor may start to make you feel like he will really want to go.
Right after bombing Iran.
So, to x language makes you a terrarist, not religion? Man, is this person screwed up…
Well, that is true too. I was watching a documentary recently about the Central Park rape/murder that happened years ago. The young black boys that were originally charged with the crime confessed to it just from being questioned. No torture. Of course there are tons of cases when our police do act like George Bush Blackwater Christian Militant Group. Hell, a few weeks ago I posted a link to a video of a woman who was chained to the floor of a cell at the police station and 7 officers (one was a woman) stripped her naked. Her crime? Oh that’s right. She called the cops originally because someone at her house had become unruly and she needed help. The first sarcastic remark she made got her chained to the floor and stripped naked.
****the young boys were later found to not be the perpetrators and were let go.
Sorry, forgot to add that in the first time around. ;-)
I referred to it in the previous thread. He’s got everything he needs happening to decide to implement a “national emergency”. Don’t think for a minute he won’t use it if he can. Although, I thing he’s bored and would like to leave, but he’d leave us with Cheenee….I hope that never goes down, and it probably won’t because there is more communication now with the internet, etc., but he has everything he needs in place to implement that directive.
So this isn’t a war for a legitimate military goal (or even an illegitimate one). It’s us going in and taking our revenge on people because some other people from another country attacked us. We wage war against them, and we torture them? And imprison them for years?
I read “anglo” to mean “white.” Not that it’s any less screwed up that way.
Yes, I believe you are quite right…but that is bloodsport for Dick…who has no term limits.
you should see the rest of us.
What is scary about it too is the broad definition of “emergency”. It does not even have to be an event happening inside the U.S.
Is this a community that cannot repond to Yeah It Hurts?
I’m asking.
Fight the fuckers first. Go to their camps, pah.
You’re right. Anyways, look at my phrase, I associated religion to terrorism. Screwed is as screwed up does…
I can hear it now…for the good of the country and national security…VP Cheney will remain in office to serve good king McSame.
Cheney is the president. Cheney is the person that was in control of Norad’s non-actions on 9/11. That is fact. Bush is an actor, a cheerleader…who they allow to act insane to distract from their real dealings and to make everyone afraid about how “crazy” he is. He is not crazy. He is just a “figurhead”. Cheney is the machine.
I single-handedly hung a jury on second degree murder, because I refused to take detective’s testimony about the accused’s confession. When I questioned the detective’s credibility during deliberations, the other jurors wanted to know why a NYC detective would lie. I told them I didn’t need a reason, there were specifics (confession was not recorded or signed, but taken in a room after which the detective left & made notes in his car) that made it not credible, and in my knowledge of the English language, that was reasonable doubt. They all insisted on my answering why would he lie, so I foolishly caved in & said: to get the case off his desk. I was met with astonishment & disbelieve. Oh, no, a detective would never do that.
i’m pretty sure that at that moment x would have considered not-white or not-christian (by culture) or not american-english speaking to mean “not-us”
:(
Right. It is anything that the King deems is an “emergency”…they are waiting for the right moment…
It will be challenged if he attempts this though. It will not work.
Exactly Margot. According to Bush, when Mississippi attacks New Hampshire, you go to war with California! See? I thought you knew this. LOL
I’m not going to no stinkin’ camp. They are.
not as much or as well as we need to learn to.
KayInMaine, re CP jogger
She wrote a book, and in the audio version she is the reader. It’s quite a story, and well worth the listen.
Me either. Not alive anyway.
I was speaking metaphorically.
“When they kick your front door down
How are you gonna come
With your hands on your head
Or the trigger of your gun” The immortal Clash. Guns of Brixton.
Kirk!
See, everybody thinks they won’t really go for it….but look at what they have gone for…just look at it. Look at what has happened. The timeline is astounding. It is public record. The economy or the internet is their best bet at trying for the final coup. It is a coup, and they are serious.
Sheep, they’re all sheep, and the shepard is having thie way with them…
thie should have been his
Torture as intimidation technique. Yep. And, of course it must be known. Envision Vice chuckling & rubbing his hands in glee when the Abu Ghraib photos got published.
However, I think that’s another false belief. I think torture intimidates only law abiding citizens, not insurgents. So it prevents the regular people from cooperating with us.
Wow.
Uh-huh.
One of the things that perplexed Riverbend of the “Baghdad Burning” blog was that we didn’t use a single Iraqi contractor in the “rebuilding” effort — then she realized that all those contracts went to Bush buddies.
Wow! Can I have your business card…you know…just in case? ;-)
Abuse by police never ends. A friend of mine was picked up for OUI years ago and he had had his dog in the truck with him. He told the officer to please call his wife so she could come and get the dog. Well, the police officer was an asshole to him from the start and decided to leave the dog in the truck overnight and the dog was dead by the time he came to get his truck. Nice huh? The cop didn’t call the wife. Revenge apparently! Sick.
Good Evening Phoenix Woman and Firedogs -
oh and btw -
whole article link
Ding. They don’t give two cents about the one person they are torturing…they want “us” (the rest of the world) to be afraid that they will go to those lengths for whatever reason…
That is what I’m saying. It is by design. It is psychological warfare…on regular people. We are the targets.
Yeah, maybe after a few years they’ll learn to say nucleeear.
pw
i left you messages at 60 and 132 in the last thread…….
ends up, in a round-about way, the coal plant funding you wrote about may end up affecting that ’done deal’ power plant in meigs county, ohio after all…….. *g*
The joined-at-the-hips twins, John & Joe, get to spend the summer together, and since torture doesn’t bother them much it should be just delightful!:
Lieberman to attend GOP convention
Oh that’s right. She was left to die but did survive.
We can’t forget that the torture and pain this woman went through is really no different than what our soldiers have done to the prisoners at GITMO and Abu Graib under the direction of the Bush Thugs.
Is there any way to know what has happened to Riverbend? I read her religiously and there has been nothing since last year.
Protect your fourth amendment rights or your fifth amendment rights will disappear.
you rock!!!
(and if you will permit me an aside…. i think this was exactly the point of the earlier discussion - that we have a responsibility to question what we are told by the experts. not because experts are not expert, but because we have a responsibility to judge for ourselves).
I have another parlor game. My apt looks out on the 53rd St exit from the FDR Drive, and from time-to-time, cops set up sting, inspecting for out of date vehicle stickers, etc. Whenever I see this (less often than 1/year), I call & complain about police abuse of rights and waste of tax payers $$. Last time it happened, about 2-3 weeks ago, they sent two beefy cops up to my apt without calling first on the house phone. Intimidation tactic I thought. Told them there was no problem in my apt; that they were the problem. (Civilian Complaint person who took my call understood perfectly what I was talking about.)
BTW, they leave within about 10 minutes after I call.
Some cities have too few cops, but NYC has too many.
Heh. But….the pronunciation of “nuclear” as “nucular” is a red herring…you are supposed to think that W can’t even say something so obvious…it is a psychological way to disarm people from being angry with him…”Oh, ain’t that cute, he so daggum dumb…” he couldn’t possibly be capable of conspiring to do anything nayasty. Wanna bet???? Sometimes he speaks with his fake Texas accent and sometimes he doesn’t. He is an actor…playing a part…in a play…in which we are also the players. Helllloooo….
Yeah, I can think of a pretty obvious reason, fuckwad.
That…is hillarious…obvious…D’Oh.
You guys rocik butk I
“I am not going to attend the Democratic Convention for obvious reasons,” Lieberman said.
He can attend the repuke convention. We all know he is one. Why doesn’t the bastard switch already.
Gawd. Did you offer them coffee and donuts…NYPD loves them some donuts. *g*
Is there room enough in the Republican Rarty for both Joe and Zell?
The remark I was reacting to was something like: Why should we believe experts; I don’t believe in a heierarchical system.
Very offputting. If, instead the comment had been worded: I don’t believe in that particular expert because … it would have been an entirely different matter. I didn’t believe the detective for a very specific reason. I did not reject his testimony merely because he was a cop.
hope so. don’t want ‘em in mine.
“obvious reasons” = uninvited
Nope. Didn’t have any on hand. Didn’t even have the presence of mind to brush off the powdered sugar on their uniforms. *g*
The kind of guy you’d like to have a beer with. I have read Ted Bundy was quite the charmer himself.
For your gun enthusiast friends, protect your Fourth Amendment rights or watch your Second Amendment rights go swirling down the toilet.
Hey! The Irish must be really freaked. Irish of color?
Good for you, eCAHNomics! Speaking truth to power is beautiful.
You’ll love this…last July when myself and others were protesting the Bush Compound in Kennebunkport (Putin was visiting too), the public road was barricaded so we could not pass in front of the Compound. The leaders of the protest in the front row insisted that we be allowed to continue on a PUBLIC road and that they had no right to block us from doing so. Well, all of the cops agreed (the Secret Service down the road didn’t LOL). They were really nice about it, because they understood what we were saying. Needless to say, we weren’t able to go up there but 3 people did step forward to be arrested in protest of it (they jumped over the barricade and the officers reluctantly placed the cuffs on them).
There are some good cops out there.
Okay, I’m going to bed. Nite all. ;-)
Sure, the GOP is a big-tent party. They have a place for all kinds of scum.
typical wingnut logic
You know, I have never been able to understand the Clintons’ continued friendship with Joe Lieberman. I really can’t.
Here’s a guy who gave the Republicans the impetus and fake “bi-partisan” cover they needed to continue the highly unpopular impeachment bullshit. If Joe Lieberman had kept his piehole shut in September of 1998 — and if he’d read the polls he would have known to do so — there would have been no disgusting impeachment spectacle in 1999 and 2000. (For Pete’s sake, the whole reason the Republicans LOST a net total of five seats in the House and gained no ground in the Senate in 1998 was because of the goddamn impeachment crapola. The public was telling them STOP IT ALREADY. And if the public had known that the Republicans in that Congress were going to start a lame-duck impeachment process right after the elections, they would have voted the Democrats back into power. But I digress.)
And yet the Clintons are arc-welded to the guy. Strange.
As an X-NewYorker (but NYC so close to my heart still), I am LMAO. I actually loved NYPD and FDNY when I was there…good people…
They sure do like to eat goodies though!!
I wish he would.
Can you see the smallpox hospital on Roosevelt island???
Actually I think it was more disinvited as he had his “super-delegate” credentials stripped when he endorsed McBush.
The one positive that Zell Miller did for the Democratic Party was being the catalyst for that particular rule.
Actually, that is a really great point. Good on you.
You’re right about the he’s-so-dumb-bless-his-heart shtick.
I think people see someone they know (or someone they are) in him, and think, “Aww, he’s not perfect either, let’s pick him for president.”
Good on you & night to you.
Yep, probably 95% (or whatever the high number is) of cops are great. It’s the power structure that abuses their power thru cops that sucks.
Why are you asking, demi?
And even in that amoral frame it doesn’t work. It doesn’t crush resistance, it breeds it.
Hey PW,
I bet you figure out who this Miinesota congresscritter is:West Sherburne Tribune
Good for you, eCAHN!! The ability to think is a wonderful quality!
Well, it’s no longer samllpox hospital, but yes. Specially pretty in cherry blossom season, as there’s a whole row (never counted exactly how many) along the river.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/hhc/ht.....ater.shtml
We need to extend that Zell Miller rule below the presidential level, so that endorsers of Lieberman in the general election (Pryor, Landrieu, et al.) are also stripped of their superdelegate status.
It’s fine if you want to endorse your friend who is running against the nominee of our party, but don’t expect us to make room for you at our gatherings in the future.
Might make them think twice. Might not.
The Nazis were unable to break the French Resistance and I’m sure they had some pretty horrible “interrogation”methods.
Exactly.
1. He is not stupid.
2. He is gifted in his ability to “get over” with the public…to not appear to be “stuck up” and from a “powerful” family.
3. He owes the Saudis. They bailed his butt out of Harken Oil.
4. He’s the “bad boy”, they might have “shizzola” on him.
Are you implying that they have no standards?
OT:
New Gov. of New York confirms he had a two year relationship with someone other than his wife. Just heard it on MSGOP.
Goddess, Jeebus, help me now….
Patterson supposedly had an affair…Good Gawd…
Ummm:
Vitter
Foley
GWB Senior
Craig.
Fight back, now!
Link?
I imply nothing.