The people who get their knowledge of the world from watch FOX’s 24 and who want excuses to beat up on brown people have long touted the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ("KSM" for short) as Proof That Torture Works. Doesn’t matter that a host of persons specializing in the gathering of intelligence have shown scads of examples showing that torture doesn’t work and is in fact counterproductive and breeds resentment and resistance — the 24 fans point to the sole example they can find and "But KSM’s case proves it can work!"
Except that, as the writers of the latest Washington Monthly explain, KSM’s case doesn’t prove what the torture apologists say it does:
What follows is a set of 37 short essays by writers from all over the political spectrum, from Bob Barr on the right to Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter on the left. You can find them all here, and I’ll be highlighting a few of them throughout the week. In one of them, journalist Peter Bergen talks about the torture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed:
What is perhaps most astonishing of all is that the mistreatment of KSM and bin al-Shibh was entirely unnecessary. Before they were captured, they had explained the details of the 9/11 attacks in an April 2002 interview with Yosri Fouda, an Al Jazeera correspondent….The CIA provided summaries of the interrogations of KSM and bin al-Shibh to the 9/11 Commission. There is little or no difference between the account that KSM and bin al-Shibh freely volunteered to Fouda in the spring of 2002 and the version the commission published in its 2004 report. Nor was Fouda’s reporting difficult to find: he hosted a one-hour documentary on Al Jazeera, wrote a long piece in London’s Sunday Times, and coauthored a book, Masterminds of Terror, about KSM and bin al-Shibh. By the time CIA officials captured the pair, a full account of their operations was only a Google search away.
Obviously, then, it was unnecessary to waterboard KSM to find out what he knew about the 9/11 plot. What, though, of the administration’s assertion that coercive interrogation techniques have saved American lives? To assess that claim, we must examine the details of other terrorist plots that KSM gave up after his capture, presented in a document the government released in 2006:
KSM launched several plots targeting the US Homeland, including a plot in late 2001 to have … suicide operatives hijack a plane over the Pacific and crash it into a skyscraper on the US West Coast; a plan in early 2002 to send al-Qa’ida operatives to conduct attacks in the U.S.; and a plot in early 2003 to employ a network of Pakistanis … to smuggle explosives into New York and to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and a bridge in New York.
It all sounds very frightening, except that there is no indication that these plots were ever more than talk.
In other words, not only was torture unnecessary, but it was actually counterproductive. KSM produced no new information under torture, only a litany of false confessions — maybe out of vanity, maybe in an effort to protect other al-Qaeda operatives. Who knows. What we do know is that torturing KSM did no good, sent hundreds of agents scurrying after phantoms, and has made his prosecution far more difficult than it needed to be.
As Kevin Drum urges, share this story with your friends and relations and anyone else who is seduced by the "KSM proved torture works" lie. In fact, it proves the opposite.
Related posts:
- Fred Hiatt Wants to Know How Well Torture Works, But We Need a Volunteer
- Ramzi bin al-Shibh’s Lawyers Barred from Info on the Torture that Drove Him Crazy
- Do ABC This Week Panelists George Will et al Support Murder If It Works?
- Yoo’s Nightmare: A Trial Showing Torture was Unnecessary
- What If Civilian Trials Prove Torture Wasn’t Necessary?





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hi PW
PW!
PW
You miss the point. Torture of KSM was revenge.
Torture of others, like al Libi, is to obtain false confessions.
The got exactly what they wanted.
Torture has already been banned. The ban must be enforced.
I’ve been saying as almost everyone here, we get LESS information when we torture, the information is NOT reliable, it’s hardly ever actionable and we could have gotten MORE information AND SAVED LIVES if we did not torture
and the administration knew this
the real purpose they adopted torture wsa to create and perpetuate fear and unrest
as every decision they made demonstrates, they never wanted “to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi’s”
they would have guarded the temples, they would have protected the infrastructure, THEY WOULD HAVE HIRED IRAQI’S TO REBUILD IRAQ
AND THEY WOULD HAVE SHOWN WE DO NOT TORTURE
they wanted unrest, they wanted insurgents, they did not want the Iraqis regaining power in Iraq
Imagine the resources wasted chasing down these fictions extracted from KSM, and how those resources might have been better used to protect America from actual threats.
Excellent post, Phoenix Woman. The saddest part of all? People in our nation who are arrested for crimes have admitted to crimes they didn’t commit and were not tortured (spent 6 hours being asked questions). For our government to say that torture works and is the best way to get information is ludicrous and they know it.
So, why would George Bush and Dick Cheney insist on having it as the law of the land then? It’s a stumper and all I can think of is they like the idea of hurting people and don’t care about Americans (who will now be tortured when caught outside or borders because we’re doing it) or our reputation around the world.
That is a great point. These false confessions are legitimizing what they’re doing in the waronterra. Sick.
imagine if we used a fraction of those resources toward the benefit of man
sorry, sometimes I am full of syrup
I think you’re right.
Why I never understood that before, I don’t know.
Please pardon the edits and clarifications.
and they cannot redefine what is and isn’t torture, they cannot unilaterally amend treaties entered by past administrations with the full faith of the united states of America
Someone I saw on CSPAN recently said local cops routinely torture or come close to it in order to extract false confessions so they can get convictions. Death penalty threat is very useful in that regard. Also noted that ex-military often go into “law enforecment,” so what they learn in the military, they apply in “civilian” life.
heading home, see all later
One of my favorite kinds of knowledge–once you hear it, it is so obvious that it immeditaely enters your knowledge set forever. Of course, you can’t be expected to know every obvious thing in advance of its being pointed out to you, which is why you didn’t know it before.
It has been pretty much proven that we paid bounties to people in Afghanistan to turn in “terrorists”. Many detainees at Gitmo claimed they were sold to America for many different reasons having nothing to do with terrorist activity (tribal disputes,unpaid debts etc.).
Torture is a good way to get “confessions” from innocent people. It is also a great way to create future real terrorists. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
They are liars. I think they made the whole GWOT up, just like they make up everything else. The Saudis were in on it. PNAC Neocons set the agenda, and away they went….new Pearl Harbor and all.
The whole torture thing is a form of mass intimidation and to make them look like they are serious…they aren’t serious…they have obtained false confessions that bolster their agenda. Now the economy is in shambles, and they are still in power. The dots are all there to connect…all of them.
30 retired Generals wrote bush a letter describing exactly why torture wasn’t a good idea.
Good Evening, PW.
I guess I should Thank You for the, uh, mild version of Torture photo.
True that many Americans get their news from Fox, but the folks here have a more complete understanding of the outrageous karma that we have taken on.
With all of the Rest Of The Bad News, financial and otherwise, that’s still a gut-wrenching image to come home to.
Yeah, it sucks.
Yeah, it hurts.
Yeah, ….yeah, yeah, yeah….
It just hurts.
And, we we wonder why people here get do teh fraticide?
It’s all perspective.
I think people here already don’t take Fox’s POV on the horror.
But, still, thanks for your efforts for keeping our feets to the fire.
:( and :).
Both Sides Now.
Oh, yeah, and they stole all the taxpayer money…and we want it back!
Expecting Bush to read it was a miscalculation on their part.
i’m afraid you’re correct.
my cousins, who i love dearly, recently complained about the airport hassles and waiting upon returning home after vacationing in europe. i made some comment about how i was just glad they were home and that they hadn’t ended up like the canadian who was sent to syria to be tortured.
the response from x was: “we have to protect ourselves”
me: “since when are innocent canadiens not “us”??
x: “just because he’s canadian doesn’t mean he’s anglo.”
i’m still in shock. it just breaks my heart.
Hey, future terrorists aren’t on W’s watch.
Unless he stays….Goddess forbid.
Neither is the coming Depression.
I’m persuaded that the purpose of torture was never to get information — though some of the torturers may have believed it was. The purpose of torture was to punish and instill fear, on the assumption that fear deters. This unfortunately requires that the torture be publicized; otherwise there is no announcement effect. I’m not sure that Cheney et al thought this part through, I imagine theyi expected to get the word out through unofficial channels, and it was certainly well known in Iraq if not here that we were torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
The point is that torture exactly fits the mindset of men like Bush and Cheney. It’s how they see the world. Kill or be killed.
Directive 51 anyone? See ya in camp. Think they’ll put us all together at least. I’d like to meet some of you.
Yes, I’ve been pretty shocked about the us vs. them outcome of post-9/11. So not me. But apparently so other ‘Merikuns.
Did you see on an earlier thread today that I was not talking about you? Was close to epu-land & I didn’t check back.
yes – thank you much. even left a reply (the content of which wasn’t important – just wanted you to know i saw your comment).
Check.
LS, the bad stuff W is leaving to his sucessor may start to make you feel like he will really want to go.
Right after bombing Iran.
So, to x language makes you a terrarist, not religion? Man, is this person screwed up…
Well, that is true too. I was watching a documentary recently about the Central Park rape/murder that happened years ago. The young black boys that were originally charged with the crime confessed to it just from being questioned. No torture. Of course there are tons of cases when our police do act like George Bush Blackwater Christian Militant Group. Hell, a few weeks ago I posted a link to a video of a woman who was chained to the floor of a cell at the police station and 7 officers (one was a woman) stripped her naked. Her crime? Oh that’s right. She called the cops originally because someone at her house had become unruly and she needed help. The first sarcastic remark she made got her chained to the floor and stripped naked.
****the young boys were later found to not be the perpetrators and were let go.
Sorry, forgot to add that in the first time around. ;-)
I referred to it in the previous thread. He’s got everything he needs happening to decide to implement a “national emergency”. Don’t think for a minute he won’t use it if he can. Although, I thing he’s bored and would like to leave, but he’d leave us with Cheenee….I hope that never goes down, and it probably won’t because there is more communication now with the internet, etc., but he has everything he needs in place to implement that directive.
So this isn’t a war for a legitimate military goal (or even an illegitimate one). It’s us going in and taking our revenge on people because some other people from another country attacked us. We wage war against them, and we torture them? And imprison them for years?
I read “anglo” to mean “white.” Not that it’s any less screwed up that way.
Yes, I believe you are quite right…but that is bloodsport for Dick…who has no term limits.
you should see the rest of us.
What is scary about it too is the broad definition of “emergency”. It does not even have to be an event happening inside the U.S.
Is this a community that cannot repond to Yeah It Hurts?
I’m asking.
Fight the fuckers first. Go to their camps, pah.
You’re right. Anyways, look at my phrase, I associated religion to terrorism. Screwed is as screwed up does…
I can hear it now…for the good of the country and national security…VP Cheney will remain in office to serve good king McSame.
Cheney is the president. Cheney is the person that was in control of Norad’s non-actions on 9/11. That is fact. Bush is an actor, a cheerleader…who they allow to act insane to distract from their real dealings and to make everyone afraid about how “crazy” he is. He is not crazy. He is just a “figurhead”. Cheney is the machine.
I single-handedly hung a jury on second degree murder, because I refused to take detective’s testimony about the accused’s confession. When I questioned the detective’s credibility during deliberations, the other jurors wanted to know why a NYC detective would lie. I told them I didn’t need a reason, there were specifics (confession was not recorded or signed, but taken in a room after which the detective left & made notes in his car) that made it not credible, and in my knowledge of the English language, that was reasonable doubt. They all insisted on my answering why would he lie, so I foolishly caved in & said: to get the case off his desk. I was met with astonishment & disbelieve. Oh, no, a detective would never do that.
i’m pretty sure that at that moment x would have considered not-white or not-christian (by culture) or not american-english speaking to mean “not-us”
:(
Right. It is anything that the King deems is an “emergency”…they are waiting for the right moment…
It will be challenged if he attempts this though. It will not work.
Exactly Margot. According to Bush, when Mississippi attacks New Hampshire, you go to war with California! See? I thought you knew this. LOL
I’m not going to no stinkin’ camp. They are.
not as much or as well as we need to learn to.
KayInMaine, re CP jogger
She wrote a book, and in the audio version she is the reader. It’s quite a story, and well worth the listen.
Me either. Not alive anyway.
I was speaking metaphorically.
“When they kick your front door down
How are you gonna come
With your hands on your head
Or the trigger of your gun” The immortal Clash. Guns of Brixton.
Kirk!
See, everybody thinks they won’t really go for it….but look at what they have gone for…just look at it. Look at what has happened. The timeline is astounding. It is public record. The economy or the internet is their best bet at trying for the final coup. It is a coup, and they are serious.
Sheep, they’re all sheep, and the shepard is having thie way with them…
thie should have been his
Torture as intimidation technique. Yep. And, of course it must be known. Envision Vice chuckling & rubbing his hands in glee when the Abu Ghraib photos got published.
However, I think that’s another false belief. I think torture intimidates only law abiding citizens, not insurgents. So it prevents the regular people from cooperating with us.
Wow.
Uh-huh.
One of the things that perplexed Riverbend of the “Baghdad Burning” blog was that we didn’t use a single Iraqi contractor in the “rebuilding” effort — then she realized that all those contracts went to Bush buddies.
Wow! Can I have your business card…you know…just in case? ;-)
Abuse by police never ends. A friend of mine was picked up for OUI years ago and he had had his dog in the truck with him. He told the officer to please call his wife so she could come and get the dog. Well, the police officer was an asshole to him from the start and decided to leave the dog in the truck overnight and the dog was dead by the time he came to get his truck. Nice huh? The cop didn’t call the wife. Revenge apparently! Sick.
Good Evening Phoenix Woman and Firedogs -
oh and btw -
whole article link
Ding. They don’t give two cents about the one person they are torturing…they want “us” (the rest of the world) to be afraid that they will go to those lengths for whatever reason…
That is what I’m saying. It is by design. It is psychological warfare…on regular people. We are the targets.
Yeah, maybe after a few years they’ll learn to say nucleeear.
pw
i left you messages at 60 and 132 in the last thread…….
ends up, in a round-about way, the coal plant funding you wrote about may end up affecting that ’done deal’ power plant in meigs county, ohio after all…….. *g*
The joined-at-the-hips twins, John & Joe, get to spend the summer together, and since torture doesn’t bother them much it should be just delightful!:
Lieberman to attend GOP convention
Oh that’s right. She was left to die but did survive.
We can’t forget that the torture and pain this woman went through is really no different than what our soldiers have done to the prisoners at GITMO and Abu Graib under the direction of the Bush Thugs.
Is there any way to know what has happened to Riverbend? I read her religiously and there has been nothing since last year.
Protect your fourth amendment rights or your fifth amendment rights will disappear.
you rock!!!
(and if you will permit me an aside…. i think this was exactly the point of the earlier discussion – that we have a responsibility to question what we are told by the experts. not because experts are not expert, but because we have a responsibility to judge for ourselves).
I have another parlor game. My apt looks out on the 53rd St exit from the FDR Drive, and from time-to-time, cops set up sting, inspecting for out of date vehicle stickers, etc. Whenever I see this (less often than 1/year), I call & complain about police abuse of rights and waste of tax payers $$. Last time it happened, about 2-3 weeks ago, they sent two beefy cops up to my apt without calling first on the house phone. Intimidation tactic I thought. Told them there was no problem in my apt; that they were the problem. (Civilian Complaint person who took my call understood perfectly what I was talking about.)
BTW, they leave within about 10 minutes after I call.
Some cities have too few cops, but NYC has too many.
Heh. But….the pronunciation of “nuclear” as “nucular” is a red herring…you are supposed to think that W can’t even say something so obvious…it is a psychological way to disarm people from being angry with him…”Oh, ain’t that cute, he so daggum dumb…” he couldn’t possibly be capable of conspiring to do anything nayasty. Wanna bet???? Sometimes he speaks with his fake Texas accent and sometimes he doesn’t. He is an actor…playing a part…in a play…in which we are also the players. Helllloooo….
Yeah, I can think of a pretty obvious reason, fuckwad.
That…is hillarious…obvious…D’Oh.
You guys rocik butk I
“I am not going to attend the Democratic Convention for obvious reasons,” Lieberman said.
He can attend the repuke convention. We all know he is one. Why doesn’t the bastard switch already.
Gawd. Did you offer them coffee and donuts…NYPD loves them some donuts. *g*
Is there room enough in the Republican Rarty for both Joe and Zell?
The remark I was reacting to was something like: Why should we believe experts; I don’t believe in a heierarchical system.
Very offputting. If, instead the comment had been worded: I don’t believe in that particular expert because … it would have been an entirely different matter. I didn’t believe the detective for a very specific reason. I did not reject his testimony merely because he was a cop.
hope so. don’t want ‘em in mine.
“obvious reasons” = uninvited
Nope. Didn’t have any on hand. Didn’t even have the presence of mind to brush off the powdered sugar on their uniforms. *g*
The kind of guy you’d like to have a beer with. I have read Ted Bundy was quite the charmer himself.
For your gun enthusiast friends, protect your Fourth Amendment rights or watch your Second Amendment rights go swirling down the toilet.
Hey! The Irish must be really freaked. Irish of color?
Good for you, eCAHNomics! Speaking truth to power is beautiful.
You’ll love this…last July when myself and others were protesting the Bush Compound in Kennebunkport (Putin was visiting too), the public road was barricaded so we could not pass in front of the Compound. The leaders of the protest in the front row insisted that we be allowed to continue on a PUBLIC road and that they had no right to block us from doing so. Well, all of the cops agreed (the Secret Service down the road didn’t LOL). They were really nice about it, because they understood what we were saying. Needless to say, we weren’t able to go up there but 3 people did step forward to be arrested in protest of it (they jumped over the barricade and the officers reluctantly placed the cuffs on them).
There are some good cops out there.
Okay, I’m going to bed. Nite all. ;-)
Sure, the GOP is a big-tent party. They have a place for all kinds of scum.
typical wingnut logic
You know, I have never been able to understand the Clintons’ continued friendship with Joe Lieberman. I really can’t.
Here’s a guy who gave the Republicans the impetus and fake “bi-partisan” cover they needed to continue the highly unpopular impeachment bullshit. If Joe Lieberman had kept his piehole shut in September of 1998 — and if he’d read the polls he would have known to do so — there would have been no disgusting impeachment spectacle in 1999 and 2000. (For Pete’s sake, the whole reason the Republicans LOST a net total of five seats in the House and gained no ground in the Senate in 1998 was because of the goddamn impeachment crapola. The public was telling them STOP IT ALREADY. And if the public had known that the Republicans in that Congress were going to start a lame-duck impeachment process right after the elections, they would have voted the Democrats back into power. But I digress.)
And yet the Clintons are arc-welded to the guy. Strange.
As an X-NewYorker (but NYC so close to my heart still), I am LMAO. I actually loved NYPD and FDNY when I was there…good people…
They sure do like to eat goodies though!!
I wish he would.
Can you see the smallpox hospital on Roosevelt island???
Actually I think it was more disinvited as he had his “super-delegate” credentials stripped when he endorsed McBush.
The one positive that Zell Miller did for the Democratic Party was being the catalyst for that particular rule.
Actually, that is a really great point. Good on you.
You’re right about the he’s-so-dumb-bless-his-heart shtick.
I think people see someone they know (or someone they are) in him, and think, “Aww, he’s not perfect either, let’s pick him for president.”
Good on you & night to you.
Yep, probably 95% (or whatever the high number is) of cops are great. It’s the power structure that abuses their power thru cops that sucks.
Why are you asking, demi?
And even in that amoral frame it doesn’t work. It doesn’t crush resistance, it breeds it.
Hey PW,
I bet you figure out who this Miinesota congresscritter is:West Sherburne Tribune
Good for you, eCAHN!! The ability to think is a wonderful quality!
Well, it’s no longer samllpox hospital, but yes. Specially pretty in cherry blossom season, as there’s a whole row (never counted exactly how many) along the river.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/hhc/ht…..ater.shtml
We need to extend that Zell Miller rule below the presidential level, so that endorsers of Lieberman in the general election (Pryor, Landrieu, et al.) are also stripped of their superdelegate status.
It’s fine if you want to endorse your friend who is running against the nominee of our party, but don’t expect us to make room for you at our gatherings in the future.
Might make them think twice. Might not.
The Nazis were unable to break the French Resistance and I’m sure they had some pretty horrible “interrogation”methods.
Exactly.
1. He is not stupid.
2. He is gifted in his ability to “get over” with the public…to not appear to be “stuck up” and from a “powerful” family.
3. He owes the Saudis. They bailed his butt out of Harken Oil.
4. He’s the “bad boy”, they might have “shizzola” on him.
Are you implying that they have no standards?
OT:
New Gov. of New York confirms he had a two year relationship with someone other than his wife. Just heard it on MSGOP.
Goddess, Jeebus, help me now….
Patterson supposedly had an affair…Good Gawd…
Ummm:
Vitter
Foley
GWB Senior
Craig.
Fight back, now!
Link?
I imply nothing.
Dan Abrams on MSNBC. Supposedly the interview was with the Daily Mail. It’s breaking news.
It is pretty obvious to me…that somebody…is spying on everybody…who is a Democrat…and is going to throw all the shizzola at the press in the run up to this election.
Who was that person that McCain was supposedly involved with?
Oh, yeah…what about Victor Ashe????
I have to take pictures of that place one day, I hear they light it up too. Link is not working, though. Thanks.
I just heard that too, it’s not a joke?
OT, but does anyone know what this is about?
‘The official news agency KUNA reported on Monday that all cabinet members had approached Sheikh Nasser Al Mohammed Al Sabah, the prime minister, to resign.’
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..75B8E7.htm
I was thinking the Dems can’t all be fearful because of blackmail. Not so certain now.
No.
Link works now, I was talking of the ruins of the original quarantine hospital.
selise, I asked you a question about one of your comments in the “media corruption” thread.
Damn, guys are all alike, you know? Their brains are in their you-know-what!
They know every single movement of every single Congressman/woman….they are spying on Americans without a warrant….since before 9/11….
They can produce evidence. The Dems can’t.
Dems….you better be clean….all of you…or we are f’uked.
oh corn flakes, does it ever end?
Let’s not generalise, please. What’s left of my brain is firmly implanted in my cranium.
Thinking with the wrong head
that’s not how i understood it. “not believing” as neither belief nor disbelief while studying the matter – not a predetermined decision to find the expert wrong. just as you did as a member of the jury in considering the testimony of the police officer… and i think it’s really hard to stand up to 11 other people. although i can imagine if one of them tried to tell you that the police officer was the expert, when you were explaining why you didn’t believe him, you might have given them what for. that’s why i was so surprised by your response earlier… i love that you think for yourself and expect others to do the same.
EXACTLY!!! Why is thst so damn hard????
Hey it”s the wives fault. Just ask Dr. Laura. She said it on the TeeVee and you are not allowed to lie on the TeeVee or the internets except for libruul sites them anti americans always lie.
Coup D’Etat.
But they don’t have checkmate yet, and if they try…..the people will not stand for this.
LMAO
I’m thinking too many of them aren’t so clean. If they had nothing to worry about there would be no reason for them to fold time and again on important legislation.
She’s a “doctor” so she must know what she’s talking about!
Things are just getting worse.
‘The latest shockwaves in the credit crisis engulfing the global financial system wiped £51 billion from the value of the UK’s biggest companies today.
On a dramatic day which saw the Bank of England pump an extra £5 billion into frozen money markets, London’s FTSE 100 Index tumbled 3.9 per cent, or 217.3 points, to close at 5414.4 – its lowest level for more than two years.’
http://www.independent.co.uk/n…..96895.html
then why doesn’t any of them go public? it would take away the legitimacy of everything the Rs have done. that’s why i find it so hard to believe.
I gotta badddd…feelin’.
So when her husband left her it must have been all her fault as well.
The ruins were really interesting, but there was a full-fledged fire may years ago (10?) and now it’s a pile of rubble. Also, Delacourt fountain on south end of Roosevelt Island (30′?) has been out of commission for over a decade.
Good question. I don’t know. Things don’t add up. We have the chance…and everyone is paralyzed…go figure…
There is a Congressional paralysis that is completely unexplained to my meaning that is.
Uhhh…
Where the hell is the “dry powder”…hellooo…who’s holding it? What did they do? Eat it?
Hmmmm.
Well, let’s hope there’s something else in New-York that I could take a picture of… ;)
unless many of them actually agree with the Rs (or at least agree with them more than they agree with us).
just like the Rs fake out their base (on abortion, gays, etc), i’m quite willing to consider the possibility that most of our elected Ds view us similarly (but try not to let on).
LOL, I didn’t know that! It’s true!
She had at least 2 affairs! Yeah, it was her fault, but it’s OK because Jesus forgave her. She’s a Christian.
IOKIYAC!
Have you ever heard the Bill Hicks routine about inaugral day and the new president is taken into a smoky backroom and shown the missing frames from the Zapruder film and then given his agenda?
Repukes = Outlaws. Outlaws = criminals.
We gotta catch them.
Well, WTC is gone ….
But, as you know, there’s plenty of photo ops in NYC.
Cause it isn’t?
In the Take Back America stream, earlier in the afternoon, one of the BA members spoke about how she was talked out of voting against the war due to the conventional wisdom held by the leadership. It would be informative to know more that caucus.
Mods: is there a youTube archive of the earlier speech from Take Back America?
Now she makes my arse itch
Not only that but there is Vitter and Craig on their side of the sex scandles. The MSM goes absolutely berzerk over this shit if you have a D next to your name, but all the crimes committed by bushco are no biggie. I will never ever understand. Some of the first things we need to do is get rid of media consolidation, bring back the fairness doctrine and get rid of every last MSM whore.
Torture is Cheney’s Mad Man strategy, demonstrating to foreign and domestic opponents that he’ll do anything, so STFU and get out of the way. It’s not about intel, it’s not about keeping America safer than before. It’s about Big Dick making sure everybody knows who’s king of the hill.
Hey, Richard Bruce, the lineman from Wyoming. The voters are coming. Those snot-nosed DFH’s who protested Vietnam and went there anyway. Those Naderites who want you to drive safe cars, but who religiously pay the taxes that subsidize your oil and defense contractors and your salary. The ones who went to Oberlin and Antioch, the school of hard knocks, or VMI or Howard or Gulf States CC. They get by in East LA, Harlingen, Atlanta and Chicago; live in luxury in Miami or Boston; start new businesses in Ann Arbor and San Jose; and used to have jobs in Rust Belt America.
They’ve had enough of your priorities and your incompetence. You’ll soon be a former public employee on a pension. You won’t like your tax rate or how much the levers of power have slipped away. It happens.
Loved Bill Hicks.
Paterson, wife, admit to affairs
Duh, there I go using that damn inferior female logic. Lemme go in the kitchen and make the man a ham sammich, maybe that will knock some sense into me
Hillarious!
Why can’t men get mad cow disease?
Cause men are pigs.
I play this at least once a week.
Bill Hicks
In a Days Inn???? I don’t think that was no $4,000 “escort.” Didn’t Elliot teach that guy nuthin’ ?
Screw this, I’m out of here for a while.
What the fuck happened to people shutting their mouths? For heaven’s sake the tri-state area is looking like a soap opera between the Spitzers, the Swinging Mcgreevy’s and now Paterson.
I thought Peyton Place was in NH?
-G
Hey! I resemble that remark!
O.K. I’m feeling a ‘one if by land, two if by sea’ situation ahead. If this thing explodes, I nominate NorskeFlamethrower as leader of the revolution.
So they cheated on each other…jeebus
tee-hee i’m going to have to tell mr that one
The Revolution will not be YouTubed
Oh, a sensitive man. I suggest you stay away from the feminist blogs– if you get offended by a joke then you sure ain’t going to like it when they say it seriously.
Who freeking fucking cares if Patterson and his wife had relationships with other people when the thought the were moving towards a divorce.
Listen. I ain’t laughin, ya know? Here’s tne thing. I know it’s a joke. And I love jokes. It’s not that that joke is offensive. What offends me is the double standard. If the sitiation was reversed and I told a similar joke about women, I’d have a mod all over me and would be wishin’ i had a dime for every time the word “misogynist” appeared.
OK, I give up. There are NO heros in politics. Resigning from the human race.
Bless his heart.
Actually, it’s probably a good move to get out in front of it and make it a non story as much as possible.
When I lived in upstate NY, I heard the story about my then state senator. When she was first running against the long time entrenched R, the smear came out that she had been a “Go-Go Dancer” back in the day. She called a press conference and said “Yep! I sure was a Go-Go Dancer. And I was a damn good one too.”
She won the election and kept on winning until she flipped her registration from D to R because she was tired of being on the outs as a “reformer” in Albany
God cares! This is the kind of thing that caused God to let the dang terrists in!
aww come back, it was just a joke …poking fun at Dr Laura’s ass backward view of women and such.
All men aren’t cheating pigs that think with their ‘rooter’ okay okay I’ll stop.
I’m sure y’all think I’m a “conspiracy theorist” and all that, but really…there is more “evidence” that there was “mischief” in what happened and how it was used to get us to where we are now….I really think so..that is just me (and many, many others). We need to reexamine what happened…how they made their documents secret and why, how they keep everything secret under States Secrets….why we are so beholdend to the Saudis….who actually attacked us…the Saudis…how the intelligence failed…how the defenses failed….how the most important financial hub was “attacked” in 2001, and why the financial hub is crashing now…why?????
I don’t believe in conspiracy “theories”, but I think there may be a real conspiracy here. Why is that so hard to look at?
exactly. though dr laura will certainly blame his wife
Mwahahahahahaa
I dunno. i don’t. And I don’t care if Spitzer blows $4,000 on some bubblehead. But it’s in New bYoprk’s hometown paper. Somebody must care. Shame.
People are people. We’re all human. It’s the MSM whores who distort and make mountains out of molehills. Why does everyone expect these people didn’t have lives before they ran for public office.
hi there…
Michael Ruppert “Crossing the Rubicon” I believe every word of it.
Yeah, men don’t get no respect, ya know? I mean, it’s hard being a man. The whole dang world’s stacked agin us!
OK, if anyone makes any more jokes about men I’m going to start cryin’.
should I apologize for the sammich joke? my hubby wasn’t offended but I don’t want to offend the guys here
be very careful what you way wobbly. :)
.
I am just soooo disappointed that the male politicians I like can’t keep their zippers up.
The only time a dem should have to resign for having an affair with a whore is if they changed David Vitter’s diapers.
We will probably never hear stories of Speaker Pelosi taking advantage of the pizza boy, no doubt.
-G
ok teehee
Look. Men and women, whose needs are not met might go outside of their relationships to meet their needs. That is human nature. It is between the parties involved. Period. It is a fact, and it affects every level of society. That is a friggin’ fact of life. Learn it.
I think BFLib has a valid point in society at large. Admittedly I am a newbie here in the Lake (just joined last week)but I get the feeling that here everything is more contextual. Obviously I don’t believe that even though most of my fellow men keep trying their hardest to prove me right. Jokes are all timing and context.
I hope in addition to reading all of the excellent articles in the Atlantic Monthly, everyone at FDL will buy a copy of this issue so that it will become the highest selling issue of the Atlantic Monthly ever. You might even want to buy a copy or two to donate to your local doctors offices, etc.
ok, hubby read that and almost spewed on the screen
“
That is my point though. It aint anyone’s business but theirs.
-G
Well, to be fair, I think as we see more and more women politicians we might see this even out a bit. I mean, women sometimes have a hard time keeping their zippers up too you know.
Most of the time men are unfaithful they are having sex with women. Which means that both halves of the sexual equations are being dishonest. Men and women.
The prostitute or the Dem?
Some folks also just a tad too uptight
vewy, vewy…
I actually heard a local newscaster use the words “Cheney” and “diplomatic” in the same sentence tonight. My head ’splodid.
i aint lookin’ for an apology and i wasn’t at all offended. that’s just the point. had it been a similar joke about women you can be sure some would have been offended and i would have goten all kinds of crap. not from everybody. just a vocal minority. all i’m sayin’ is everybody oughta get on the same page. if it was up to me we’d be on the joke tellin’ page. but it ain’t up to me.
It’s the very first thing you would have heard if it had been true.
Besides which, women have more taste than pizza boys. I’m desperate, but even I wouldn’t settle for that. (No offense to pizza boys intended.) *g*
I’ll bet W never cheated on Laura! (do I have to put the friggin’ s/ thingy..) Plllleeeeaaassseeeee.
At this point it is hard to tell what page we are on.
707!
Dang, who woulda thought a guy names “Beerfart” would be sensitive?
‘zactly so. but i can deal with it i guess.
Uh, but the women are not in public life. Big diff.
McCain: We will be in war for eternity!!! Yeahhhhhhhhhhh.
i’m not.
Why is it assumed that someone’s needs are not being meet. Perhaps the person doing the fucking around is into “catch me if you can” or is using sex as power. We need to think outside the box on this one. (I cannot believe I just said that box thing)
Vitter is the whore
The dem is doing the changing.
This is getting strange.
what’s the /s thingy ?
ok, gotcha no harm meant.
Wanna sammich? *g*
Yup, doctor laura was one of them.
i should just kept that to myself. wsan’t worth it.
rye.
mustard on one piece. mayo on the other.
Snark tag…! ;-)
Maybe women politicians are just smarter and don’t get caught.
I am totally ashamed of myself for saying such a thing.
oh yeah.
*g*
thanks.
You have my vote.
-G
Well they inherently keep it in their pants, right? ;-)
Makes me wonder, though, exactly what Governor Paterson thought he needed to get out in front of. Perhaps he knows the GOP has the goods on his and his wife’s dalliances.
I wish the Democrats would tell us if they are being wiretapped. We need to know. Someone needs to tell us.
McCain has convinced me. Endless occupation makes sense. Yeah. I want my descendants to remain in IRAQ 4evah. Makes sense. Stabilize the Aye-rabs. They don’t have a clue how to fight Al-Qaeda (”the base”, created by us)..We are all-knowing, and genetically superior to the Aye-Rackees….what the hayell do they know…
What a friggin’ lunatic…
BTW…someone today that McLame is old and suffering from cancer, and, should therefore, nominate the perfect VP candidate, Colin Powell as VP.
Excuse me. Powell is the same age as McCain, and he has been treated for prostate cancer.
Helloooooooo!!!
Supposedly there were rumors in Albanny and he wanted to go on the record.
I think Paterson should be commended on his devotion to his most beloved wife.
It would do us all good to see that fidelity and love are disparate.
707
could be. but i thin k we’re just way behind on that. not “we” so much as the media. i don’t think the possibility of women having afrfairs has occcurrewd to the media types. People are always looking for a bimbo in a male cabndidate’s past but i don’t think women candidates get the same treatment. Thankfully. I wish we’d/they’d be that way with all candidiates and just leave that shit alone.
coming right up…should I cut the crust off? :)
At some point people will start talking. If the dems were smart they would be screaming from the roof tops.
never mind.
Sure it was, I’m glad you said something but to be honest, i don’t always think at how that might be offensive to some.
Got an extra one?
wait. That guy is basil patterson’s kid?
You are so right. I’m not going there, but what you are saying is important, and I relate, and agree with you. Who knows why people do what they do.
well per dr laura, I’m only supposed to validating the men folk but…..
oh okay *g*
please. and could ya cut it into triagles, please? and some strawberry bosco? yum-o
This is quite a thread! I’m just hoping Obama or Clinton has something worthwhile to say tomorrow. Sex is good, but not quite enough, you know? We’ve got problems. Maybe someone in the MSM could address that?
No one’s privacy is private.
yup
Can’t we offer all the critters a one time amnesty for their sins in exchange for impeachment. We’ll sort out the critters later at the polls.
Gunslinger McCain has some interesting flip flops on the issue of torture. He was a victim of it himself. Did it work on him? There are some former Vietnam POW vets who say it did. McCain is opposed to unsealing the debriefing documents of the returning Vietnam POW’S, why is that? Questions,questions flooding the mind of todays concerned young person.(Obscure Zappa reference).
That take-down on Laura Schlessenger was delicious. Congratulations to whoever posted it. (People keep interrupting me tonight!)
Gawd..in the weirdest way, we are back to the 60’s…..
What? Corporate media report on something substantive? And be accused of being anti-American? Not a chance.
oh, hey. give the msm a break. not at all fair to say they’ve been focuswed on sex. they’ve spent at least as much time quoting a preacher out of context.
From what I have read, it did work on him.
Speaking of double standards (were we?) I think we got some right here. When the Larry Craig thing happened I thought the chortling and tap-tap jokes would never end. NOW we’re into “that’s just how folks are”.
Now I happen to agree that as long as nobody’s getting hurt and everyone’s happy, people’s sex lives are their own damn business – though a case could be made that if prostitution is illegal, it would be a good idea for government officials to avoid it – especially if they have build their career on cleaning up corruption.
True, cannot argue!
surprised?
I agree 100%. There is right and wrong and there is the law. They are not necessarily the same. BUT-if you choose to violate the law you must accept the consequences, been there myself. Fight to change unjust laws.
absolutoodolutely
did i start that double standard shit?
sorry.
Nope.
Fischer, Opa,
Jokes about gays and women are not welcomed here. When you go after guys, when you generalise, when you pull a “joke” or a smear against men, all men,when you use sensitive, well you bring back the discourse of this blog fifty years back. You act like retrogrades, like republicans, as if it doesn’t matter. By the way, I’m not sensitive, I’M respectful of women, and I expect the same treatment. Stay the fuck away from me.
Many, many years ago, I watched an Italian porno film. One of the male performers did something rude to one of the female performers, slapped her lightly I think, and the fellows watching the film in front of me laughed uproariously as the woman took off her blouse anyway (Obviously, the women these fellows dealt with would have hit the rude guy right back and stomped off). We all knew the plot was ridiculous and served just to get the characters naked and busy. Why does “24″ feature scenes where torture is effective? Same reason. It’s a show!! You can make the characters do whatever you want!
What’s really sad, though, is to see people like Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia defending and minimizing torture, as though “24″ were more than just a #$@& TV show. Some people need to have a better sense of reality.
Was that rumor of us kidnapping KSM’s kids and torturing them in front of him ever disspelled??
I know the thread is over, just killing time before work. Where did you see a joke about gays or women? The joke about men being pigs was made contextually after a statement about which head men think with. As a man myself I do not believe it but it is a joke. Do you have a favorite comedian?
sorry i missed it!… and now you will miss mine here… will keep an eye out for you and ask what your question was. my apologies!
There’s another reason for the executive administration to order, suggest, condone torture. These civilians people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush etc., needed to know who in the military structure they could trust…which military generals would be loyal to their criminal ends…or be blackmailed into supporting them. Condoning torture (looking the other way) is an easy people management tool for frustrated and angry soldiers and an excellent blackmail tool for officiers who can’t or won’t control the troops. The war can’t end until our energy corporations get the oil so we can’t allow the GIs to start thinking they could be temporary peace corps workers. Sort of like the loyalty test of gangsters.
Civilian governments that do illegal things have to bolstered and protected by a loyal military just as military juntas need their military.
Harpers magazine more than a year ago wrote an article about a symposium on the idea of an American coup d’etat. It was very interesting and showed important military minds thinking aloud about their role in a democracy.