If you wondered how the nation’s mainstream media would ensure that racism and religious militarism influence the next election, just watch MSNBC and ABC stage endless faintings about "Obama’s pastor problem." America’s DC pundits are bullying a black candidate while making racist attacks on black pastors and churches, thinly disguising them as a defense of American civility and patriotism.
MSNBC spent Friday evening’s political commentary probing the adequacy of Obama’s renunciation of statements made by his Pastor Jeremy Wright, including those following 9/11. Obama has categorically rejected those sentiments, but that will not stop the Republicans and Fox News from replaying Wright’s comments to maliciously brand Obama as secretly anti-white and anti-American. But MSNBC was hardly better, running the headline banner, "Obama’s Pastor Problem" throughout the discussion.
Let us be clear. Barack Obama does not have a "pastor problem." There is a problem, but it’s being framed as "Obama’s Pastor Problem" only because he lives in a country whose irresponsible media pretends that America does not have a "racism problem" and a "religiously driven militarism problem" neither of which can be honestly discussed in a Presidential campaign because we have a "corrupt media problem."
As expected, Fox News obsessed over Reverend Wright , but ABC and ABC’s This Week, were not to be outdone. And who better to pontificate on what constitutes acceptable political speech by black pastors than the self-righteous team of Ruth Marcus, George Will and Mark Halperin, arrayed against the ever polite Donna Brazile. You can guess the rest.
Will asserted that Obama was probably lying because Will knows that anyone who sits in a black church will hear unpatriotic, un-American views. Halperin announced the litmus test for Presidential eligibility that if it can be proved that Obama personally heard views that might offend George Will, then Obama is [black] toast. When Donna Brazile tried to explain to her white panelists that it’s not unusual for black ministers to preach against the evils of racism and militarism in America, George Stephanopoulus ignored her and ask whether Obama should condemn Wright even further. Ms. Marcus happily added that he should.
NBC’s Meet the Press then repeated this sorry spectacle, with David Broder wondering why Obama didn’t do a better job of selecting a black church. Couldn’t Obama have found an "acceptable" black church whose paster refrained from uttering statements that David Broder would find offensive? Heavens, isn’t it obvious that all potential Presidential candidates should clear their religious affiliations with the Dean of Washington morality? What was Obama thinking?
And just as Brazile was unable to be heard by her all white panelists at ABC, so NPR’s Michele Norris (yep, similar pattern: 3 white men; one non-white woman) could not make the same point about black churces to the hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil team of Tim Russert, David Gregory and Broder.
Washington’s self-appointed elite punditry is suffering from a severe case of historical obtuseness and amnesia. They’ve forgotten that we fought a civil war because black people were kidnapped, kept and sold as slaves, and that the hatred about that conflict and it’s aftermath still manifests itself nearly 150 years later. Our arbiters of civil discourse cannot recall that white Americans lynched black Americans for decades, and nooses still show up every week; that Jim Crow was the law in much of the nation; that whites murdered Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers, and dozens of others. It just slipped their minds that even today blacks have been systematically denied equal protection and opportunity, including the right to vote, and that the Republican Party still uses every ruse to disenfranchise blacks, while Bush appoints to the Federal Election Commission a man who specialized in such crimes while holding a key position in the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division.
It does not seem to have occurred to the white DC pundit class that blacks have every right to be angry at America — and that condemning them for this anger is racist. Black and white pastors have every right to preach against these evils, even as they preach the Christian gospel of forgiveness and redemption. They carry an obligation to make sure this history is understood, contrasted against one’s moral/religious beliefs and against official denials and proclamations of piety, and not forgotten.
And they are justified in preaching against the militarism that has seen far too many blacks, whites and others killed and to rail against the jingoism and false patriotism that condone aggressive wars, torture, killing civilians as "collateral damage," and worse. Pastors should denounce the religious fanaticism, bigotry and hatred preached by John Hagee and his fellow right-wing extremists, men whose screeds openly call for religious wars/crusades against Islamic nations and Islam itself, or who advocate for holy wars because they are deluded into thinking killing other people leads to personal salvation. If our religious leaders are not damning America for enabling these moral failings, why not? We all should.
To be continued . . .
More: New pastor defends Wright against attacks. For more on Wright vs Hagee, see Archpundit; Media Matters here and here.
Related posts:
- Early Morning Swim: KO Documents Racist Attacks on Obama
- The Limbaugh Party: Racist Through and Through
- Rikyrah: Opt-Out States Are “Where the Majority of the Black Population in This Country Lives”
- Late Night: MSNBC – Will Any Republican Denounce Rush Limbaugh?
- Conservative Blogger Rick Moran Calls on the Right to Condemn “Crazies”, Sees Racism in Attacks on Obama





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ZED x 2
This is pre-emptive strategy, when Obama is the candidate, how do you suppose they will address the inevitable racism it will spawn?
By pointing back at these stories, all conveniently categorized into perfect little soundbites of selective rhetoric.
This is nothing more or less than part of the wingnut strategy, they are changing the way the pieces are moved on the chessboard, while the rest of us are still learning how to play chess.
MSM, by order of their corporate masters are trying to make race the issue. There is no way in hell the goopers (including gooper lites) can beat obama on the war issue or in fact the economy so they will try to destroy him in any way they can. It is fucking sick.
Hi Scarecrow.
Fuckin A crow, tell it.
I’ll take chance. Zed.
With the cooperation of HRC.
If ya got time to watch a video or two, check out this link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..352/477632
One is of Obama’s CURRENT Pastor, and he’s very impressive in this clip. There’s also another member of Trinity who happens to be (gasp!) a white woman. Seems like a really cool place.
Scarecrow,
This is one of your best. Thanks for your efforts.
You have hit the nail on the head!
Where was the outrage when presidents had the backing of the like of Falwell? Where was the outrage? but to hold someone accountable for what their pastor/preacher/minister/rabbi/priest says is ridiculous. There have been times when my pastor (who is conservative) would say stuff that made me shit uncomfortably in my seat and think, no he did not just say that.
Yup.
Great post Scarecrow!!
This whole thing makes me sick. They are crowning McLobby right before our very eyes. We can’t let that happen again! Hagee’s remarks are vile.
Thank You!
The media are not being racist. They just have serious concerns about
those peoplesome viewschallenging the Southern way of lifeat variance withwhiteAmerican values. What could be more benign?And the DLC…
It is sad that they would take this man’s career and reduce it to these small 15 and 30 second soundbites. The outrage? He said God Damn America. Sorry but when war is being aged in my name, when we are letting our citizens drown and have forgotten them, on and on, I have said it.
digg early digg often
Meanwhile the pundits don’t read their own Bibles….The sins of the fathers shall be visited on the heads of their descendent’s for seven generations. I hated that verse when I thought it was prescriptive, but have come to believe it now that I see it as descriptive. Unless there is grace and reconciliation, the vestigal effects of brutality continue on and on.
It is interesting to watch my husband’s family, of Jewish descent with no visible interaction with Jewish culture, religion, or identified Jewish people for two generations. There are certain ways one must do things and one must not do things, but the children are hard pressed to say why and are nonplussed to see the connection to Jewish ritual and practice.
Now, think of the traumas visited on the heads of people walking around us, much less their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents. Even without telling the children the whys and the wherefores, they are living in a society that is overall, mostly unrepentant about the traumas and the horrors.
Tut, tut, dare these people complain? dare they show anger?
I have to disagree with the Southern part, not that it’s not true but it sure isn’t geographic.
I think that the Wall Street crashing down story is sweeping this pastor story into the dustbin.
Exactly. That’s what’s troubling about this now. Doesn’t seem to me to “prepare” Obama for the Repube attacks at all, since it is damaging him…
http://tpmelectioncentral.talk…..y_wrig.php
…and he can’t fight back against a fellow Dem (supposedly) in the same ways he can against the Noize Machine. This all hurting our chances for Nov, and continued support of The Clintons fuels it.
We need to hit back with sound bites of Haggee and Paisley. both of them get are equally loud even angry sounding…but wait, (they’re white)
sadly, you are correct
That was code for Jim Crow in the 50s and early 60s IIRC.
right on! Scarecrow
Anybody happen to catch the piece called “Black Magic” on ESPN last night? It was the first of two parts about apartheid in basketball. It had some incredibly articulate retired B-ball players on. The injustice of it all made me say “God damn America” over and over.
I’m with ya, it’s just that being from Chicago and having lived in Georgia for 20+ years I see little difference.
I agree.
Oh no, we can’t talk about eeewwwwww sports here!
And where is the noise about McSame’s campaign finance problems and Hillary’s all-but refusal to release schedules and tax records. The latter issues are serious, whereas all this guilt by association is just a pile of very smelly shit.
What a dipshit. Truly one of the many perfect poster children for birth control
You’re right, as usual, Hugh. I’ll rewrite the entire post. Heh.
and god’s on their side
Actually forms of jim Crow laws began after the civil war and the passing of the 13th amendment andlet’s not forget the re-enslavement of blacks via sharecropping
yeah, God is white too
I made the move in the other direction from Kentucky to Illinois and I saw little difference either.
Down by the Green River
Where Paradise Lay
Lehman Bros. taking a big hit today…down $14
It’s just disspiriting to see this country moving backwards on so many issues, human rights, religious tolerance, and racism. So many attitudes that people would have been embarrassed to voice in public only a few years ago now get blared over the media as a public service.
It is a stench that permeates our entire country and the mindsets (or lack thereof) of many.
Disgusting, it is.
From Kentucky and lived all over and I agree. I had a couple of black roommates as a GI in Hawaii and the biggest difference for them was that in the south it was a tad bit more upfront than in the north (one was from Chicago and one from somewhere in Maryland).
Germany 1930’s…
How bout them Dawgs!
Had a rare occasion to watch some of the Sunday shows yesterday, and heard Leon Panetta say something that struck me rather oddly on Face The Schieffer. He described the Dem race between “a woman and a black.” There wasn’t anything else…just “a black.” Is it just me or isn’t that worthy of some clarification?
Yup!!!
dispiriting?
profound depression is more like it
How bout a damsel and a soul brother?
There was a woman on one of the CSPANs (I think) yesterday who was doing a nice job of putting some of the black preacher rhetoric into context. For example, she paired up the inflammatory statements on AIDS with the Tuskeegee experiments, when the govt really did experiment on black men, by giving them syphilis. I didn’t watch it for long, but it certainly gave me a different perspective. Obama should do more of that kind of educating. It’s not sufficient to denounce it.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I started getting e-mails from a right-wing acquaintance several months ago about Obama’s ‘pastor problem’. I deleted it naturally, but it was all about how Wright is a black racist, Black Nationalist radical anti-American who would help Obama usher in “Islamofascism”.
FWIW, I agree with everything Wright said and wish Obama had gotten up on teevee and raised his fist and yelled “BLACK POWER!!!”. But that’s just me.
It was interesting watching the John Adams series last night. In one of the scenes, an agent for the Crown — the guy who’s supposed to collect the tax on tea in Boston — gets literally tarred and feathered, a torture horrifying scene, and John Adams is appalled by the lawless brutality of the mob. We’re much more civilized now, I keep reminding myself.
Just listened to some idiots on one channel or another saying that the stock market is OK it will drop but go back up again and then he said “people under 55 should surely leave their money in their (referring to IRAs etc.). Well bloody lovely and what do people, like me, well over 55 do. piss up a rope?
This by Frank Schaeffer puts the comments by black pastors into excellent perspective: http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpo…..sKTr.s0NUE
What we need is a new generation to take over on TV. I don’t know many young people who have the problems with people of color and women that “us” older folks seem to have.
How about 2 people still vying for the nommination?
Ah, that’s better.
BTW, saw this vid the other day and it needs to get to Pelosi. This is how we do it:
Soul ‘Em Outta Their Holes!
I’m thinking you might have meant “shift uncomfortably in my seat.” Otherwise, I know what they mean by |”sitting alone in your pew.”
And this will sell detergent how?
ugh…here’s the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMSEI-bJ09E
Amen to that. I watched ABC and MTP on Sunday. I wanted to throw up. I kept yelling at the TV. It’s a good thing I have only me and my poor pooch. She hid in the closet to get away from my eruptions. LOL
I never watch Fox and the others…just MSNBC, and I can tell you: they were relentless replaying that tape again and again and again and again….
He’s an interesting guy, I’ve been in contact with him since he and his son, a Marine, wrote a couple of books.
Patterson part way through Inaugural address on cspan1, funny guy too.
Of course they were, this is not surprising.
was it Michelle Bernard of the Independent Women’s Forum this morning? She runs a pretty conservative group but on this she was making a whole lot of sense.
Thank you. I needed that. Now I can get on with my day. (She says with tears rolling down her cheeks.)
scarecrow says-” Pastors should denounce the religious fanaticism, bigotry and hatred preached by John Hagee and his fellow right-wing extremists, men whose screeds openly call for religious wars/crusades against Islamic nations and Islam itself, or who advocate for holy wars because they are deluded into thinking killing other people leads to personal salvation.”
but scarecrow, THESE people are on the axis of evil……..the president said it was ok to annihilate them……..
===============
scarecrow says-”It does not seem to have occurred to the white DC pundit class that blacks have every right to be angry at America — and that condemning them for this anger is racist. ”
i would add suppression at the end of that——-suppression has become a habit…….as is discounting someone, taking away their right to complain or express their view of their situation.
treating them as irrelevant.
dc pundits have this down to an art form.
Excellent. I was not familiar with him or his work, but he sure nailed the perspective on this black-pastor nonsense.
The whole militant, black preacher thing is the Pukes completely desperate attempts to seed the idea that Obama is somehow Farrakhan in disguise, and that if he gets elected he will take revenge on white America….bugga, bugga.
The truth is the Neocons have used the Pukes’ evangelicals to destroy America. It is Orwellian, the media is complicit, and we are in the most dangerous period in our history.
The counter to all of this is to keep pointing out what kind of people these Neocons are. They have destroyed the economy, lied us into war, they are ruining the environment, stealing taxpayer money, torturing people, and spying on Americans. We need to keep pounding on their failures. The most dangerous thing right now is that if the economy is suddenly deemed as a national emergency by W, he can cancel the elections.
We can’t let them get away with this! Don’t play into their traps.
They did get themselves on a run, that’s for sure. What are they now, a 14 seed? I think that’s far and away the lowest I’ve ever seen an SEC team. Hopefully, for their sake, the powers that be in Athens have enough sense to keep Felton on as the head coach.
Forgive me but that’s just nonsense.
We HAVE a new generation on TV – David “I pimp-with Karl” Gregory, the cute female republican of the week, of any race, the young (er) guy spewing right-wing hate (Glen Beck). Nancy “I lied about my tragedy: Grace.
The problem isn’t the generation, the problem is “de Money!”
On the other hand, here’s a guy who, while not in “da media,” seems to get it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3UdmEC540qc
You should get wise to his music, too.
LOL!!!! That’s all? I guess that just about wraps it up, doesn’t it? A woman, a bakc, and a white man…that’s WTF it’s all about isn’t it?
My individual stocks are down close to 30% in the past 6 months, and my IRAs are down about 10% (the latter only because my distributions were about as conservative as I could make them, or my losses there would be even worse). It would not surprise me to see my holdings decimated (reduced by 90%) before long. They are tryin’ to keep the lid on just how how the circumstances are.
Might have been her. Thanks. I couldn’t remember when I heard it.
you didn’t know? blacks don’t get any more clarification than that. they are a monolithic mass
I frankly have never seen such and effort. To play 2 games in one day, one against a team that had not played, and then beat the Hogs then next day! And that is with seven scholarship players.
I was on foxnews.com yesterday and saw Wright’s picture on the main story page. Next to it was Obama. The big lettering ‘GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION’ and a video clip was available for people to see what Wright was preaching about.
Firstly, Wright is kinda outta line in the clip. But his target audience was different, and his message was not meant for a national audience. So, I knew it was going to upset a lot of people. It was going to make people who support Obama (through association with Wright) appear to be race apologists.
I thought Fox News was absurd in it’s angle here. Firstly, because I’ve never ever seen any pastor’s video clip ever used before this time. And this is the best clip they’ve got of him, apparently (not too offensive, but definately red meat for the red base).
Secondly, because Fox and others have no point to mention some of the right wing pastor’s inflamed messages of anti-islam, anti-gay, anti-democratic, pro-war rah rah rah, pro-armageddon messages. Fox has never tried to put videos of Hagee up on their main page. Why? Well, I think that people don’t know how fucked up of a person Hagee is. They may not even know he exists, or that he has endorsed McCain.
But if they DID know how fucked up of a person Hagee is, maybe it would turn off voters from supporting McCain, considering how hard McCain’s tried to get Hagee’s endorsement..Instead, all Foxnews readers see is Obama’s wacky pastor.
So, only part of the story is told. And that part was amplified. And everything else? In the dark. Just like FoxNews readers. It’s unfortunate. Hagee is a much bigger ass than Wright could ever aspire to be.
Funny I was just thinking that watching the video of Obama’s CURRENT pastor (I linked it upthread at #7). I think Obama was saying similar things when talking about Rev. Wright and how Wright came from a different generation, and had much different experiences than Obama and his CURRENT pastor have had. Obama also spoke very well about how he couldn’t be where he is without the blood, sweat and tears of those previous generations. He speaks very well on this topic, and I’m glad he’s had the opportunity to show who the real adult is in this election season.
of course *g* my momma civlized me a bit
I am sure the gummint is going to come and bail me out. How about you!
Michelle Bernard is all right…actually…
to be clear, I was referring to her comments on CSPAN, not the mission of her organization
Has Rev. Wright made any statement since all this occurred? I haven’t seen one – just wondered.
Derrick Bell in his “Faces at the Bottom of the Well” says white America needs black America in order to feel superior. No matter how lowly a white job holder, he feels superior to blacks, even blacks who have done much better financially than him. Bell thinks the racism this need for superiority engenders will not go away. I hope he is wrong, but there’s not much evidence of that.
Nationalism is also at work. Black preachers who rail against American policies are not only protesting racism here, they protest racism globally because our foreign adventures since WWII happen to involve non-white countries. To say we were wrong in Korea, Iraq, Vietnam, Iran (when we installed the Shah and upset a lawfully elected president) means our system doesn’t work; that something is wrong with the great U S of A. Since many Americans feel good about themselves because they are Americans, they do not look kindly on any criticism.
I think Obama, rather than disown his pastor, should meet these critics head on. It’s like the lady who called Hillary a “monster”. She obviously did not mean Hillary is literally Godzilla out to devour the city, but Hillary is unprincipled, a dirty fighter who says or does anything to get what she wants. The lady should have explained herself rather than concede the remark was unforgiveable. Hillary plays the race card and may even be behind this current “outrage”. That’s the trouble with Hillary. Anything, even a quite bad thing, is possible.
raven at 45
ROFL you crack me up!
(congrats on the dawgs)
You’ve outdone yourself, Scarecrow.
Actually we should have him on here:
Yeah, LOL!
Can you just imagine had Bu’ush been able to privatize Social Security?
Lehman Bros…down over $16…will they need to get bailed out too?
PS Scarecrow, I always jum on board without saying thanks to the poster for their post, everyone forgive my lack of blog ettiquette, but I do, most sincerely, appreciate what you do for all of us. Your logical dialogue and reasoned arguments have given me and many others fodder for coffe-shop and water-cooler conversations that our neo-con wannabe bubbas simply can not dispute.
Maybe Jane ought to publish all of your posts in a book, it would be a great read. Comprehensive and so very readable, just call it “Scarecrow, on FDL.” That wopuld leave em’ guessing, at least anyone who doesn’t share in our historic little dogdom here at the lake.
It might give the non-blogging public an insight as to how this phenomenon works (and might open the door for other bloggers to publish in print what they put on the blogs.)
Your posts tend to be long enough and complete enough, each of them standing alone in its meaning, it would fall together quite succinctly.
I’m just sayin’…
Obama’s pastor can’t criticize America, but Nice Polite Republicans (NPR) can praise the romaticization of torture…
I think church sermons have changed in the last 40 years.
My experience growing up was with a pastor who preached a lot about social injustice back in the 60s.
Since the 80s and since I’ve moved to a part of the Bible Belt, I hear a different message from the pulpit. Social injustice is not mentioned. Getting saved is.
Lee Greenwood’s “I’m Proud to be an American” is played at a lot of churches around here, every Sunday.
I do not know what the answer to this is but I think it’s a problem to be faced for the campaign.
They’re next, according to accruing financial news wires stories.
Thanks for the heads up (one-T for future reference)
Looks like I might have a governor who I can like for a change.
Yes, I was expecting some noize about Panetta’s comment today, but there’s so much else going on I think it went unnoticed. Really made me ears perk up though…
I still don’t see how he was out of line. it was inflammatory but not out of line (IMO)
Joe L Allbriton owns many media companies. He is also the CEO of Riggs bank that helped funnel money to Dubai for the 9/11 attacks. Wright was damning them and I’m not surprised to see those media companies strike back.
And republic whackjob pastors can talk about how God flooded an entire American city because he was angry at a particular group of Americans.
oops, thanks, Paterson.
bonkers—-what obama said about new and old pastor is toward the end of this chicago tribune interview—-posted yesterday, i think by jane…….
http://www.chicagotribune.com/…..rint.story
That’s why I am here! Think about this, the Bama/MSU game doesn’t go into OT there are maybe hundreds of people on the street where to tornado hit. Look at this photo
Wow, I’m watching it. I’m also concerned for Citigroup…they are down to $18 per share…down from $40 months ago…
She was on C-Span this morning. I watch every morning. She was really good. She was also on Hardball Friday and tried to keep the topic from going nuts. Some times I fell terrible for Donna Brazille, but she sure doesn’t stand up for herself or our Party.
I, for one, didn’t have much issue with much of what the MSM is using to denounce Wright. Wright made some of his statements in regard to the assertions made from black-supporters of Clinton that Obama wasn’t “black enough” to relate to the experience of African Americans. So he asked if Hillary had ever experienced being called a N*****? I think that it was a fair point…one that would have been understood as non-racist inside the context of the Church. This race “issue” (authenticity) was raised to diminish Obama’s experience, by Clinton surrogates.
And Wright is also correct when he indicates that US policies abroad have played a major role in the targeting by terrorists against us. He never stated that the people that died in 9/11 deserved to die, quite the contrary. He stated that they were innocent victims of US policies abroad that encouraged war and civil conflict. Does anyone really doubt that the rise of bin Laden was the consequence of US support for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan?
It seems as if some of this is stuff that people still are in denial about hearing. Or maybe they want to stopper their ears if someone is simply angry enough to express its true effects.
And Wright also speaks about relating to the poor in a hellfire and brimstone manner.
How I wish that just a few of the evangelical fundamentalists would direct a few of their sermons to issues of social justice and the historical weight of the effects of discrimination, sexism, and greed on our current society. Instead they are all bound up in “how Christ will reward you financially” and how best they can attach themselves to power by alignment with the architects of war-profiteering and usury.
Am sad to say we shouldn’t hold our breath for Leon Panetta to clarify his “a woman and a black” comment but I agree he ought to be held accountable. Panetta is a local icon on our central CA coast. Our fairly new CalStateUniversity on former Ft. Ord Army base is his enduring favorable legacy locally where the Leon & Sylvia Panetta Institute thrives. He began his political career as a Republican in the Nixon era. The kindest words this ole brat can conjure up on Panetta is he had the wit to marry Sylvia – whose work ethic then and now is legendary.
So he asked if Hillary had ever experienced being called a N*****? I think that it was a fair point…
Not saying it’s not a fair point, but it would be about as possible for her to experience being black as it would be for him to experience being a woman.
Thanks for the link. Wow, Obama is remarkably candid about various things that have gone on through this campaign. Yes, this is a similar quote I’ve seen from him before:
Make alotta sense to me…
Yea, they had the Pancetta logo over his shoulder. Never heard of it before. Perhaps his wife just wants to stay outta the house as much as possible? ;)
I believe the MSM was correct to condemn Reverend Wright’s words. To my ear, they were hatefilled and racist.
I do not, however, hold Obama accountable for Reverend Wright’s vile words.
One more point on this. I recall that President Clinton had a whole series of town-halls on race where these sorts of issues were expressed quite openly. Suddenly it becoimes anathema to listen to such statements being made?
Obama has said, time and again, that he would listen to people of all perspectives in this country. He wouldn’t necessarily agree with them on all points, or even a few. But he would digest what they were saying and realize that people had different experiences and backgrounds.
I just went over to MSNBC’s website that discussed the statements of Obama’s church about Wright. It was filled with extremely hateful comments which demonstrates that racism and denial is still very much alive in this country. At the same time I’m proud that 25% of White Democrats in Mississippi felt that they could vote for a Black man for President. That’s a major change. Ten years ago that might be 2%.
True…but the original issue about HAVING TO BE “X” was raised by Clinton surrogates. The correct answer to your point is, of course, that one can only hope that an individual has a broad enough experience to share EMPATHY. Otherwise we will have to seek out a female mixed-race transexual dwarf raised by wolves.
Lead story for several days? I don’t think it deserved even a fraction of the coverage it has gotten.
Plus, when did Wright make these comments? Some of the tape being talked about was from 7 years ago. Wright had no place on a Presidential campaign when making those comments, as opposed to Ferraro who sat on Hillary’s finance committee and was going around BigMedia representing Hillary when she made her unacceptable remarks, which she still defends. Big difference IMO.
Ferraro was in the news somewhat, but nowhere near the amount this Wright stuff has been. Strange how it fits so neatly into the “Obamas Hate America” storyline that’s been slowly trotted out over the last year (flag pin, pledge of allegiance, Michelle’s comments, etc.).
“It does not seem to have occurred to the white DC pundit class that blacks have every right to be angry at America — and that condemning them for this anger is racist.”
“Angry at America”? Blacks citizens are part of America. Your statement like much in this thread makes no sense except to create generalized rage instead of identification of a problem and/or suggesting solutions. You give the right ammunition with this kind of propaganda.
I wish every time MY friends went broke, the fed would bail them out…
racist? okay
I tried a similar argument with oldgold last week and his argument has remained , in essence, that they are the same. His opinion.
raven at 98–
WOW!
i have never seen a photo like that……….almost looks like a godzilla movie or something…….
i collect weather photos. thanks.
i was listening to an atlanta radio station that night, i scan the am dial at night….they were talking about all the people, what could have happened, and that some were on a walkway that was torn apart….so, i heard about it, but hadn’t seen any photos…no cable.
glad it missed you and the mrs. and that you’re ok.
Being that they were left to drown after Katrina, that the government hasn’t done shit to help them except stick them in contaminated trailers; being told to go back to Africa by other americans; to have been held in bondage for 200 years, freed, re-enslaved via jim Crow laws; lynched; murederd witout justice, etc. etc. isn’t exactly conducive to feeling like you are a part of America.
could you give an example of wright’s own words that you think are racist?
serious question. i almost never watch cable news or the sunday morning talk shows, so i really have no idea what you are referring to.
I am a white man. I have been an active member of the KKK. I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to this organization. Just because I am a member, I can not be held responsible for what the heads of the KKK say. That is un-American. Guilt by association is not fair. I never knew the KKK was racist. They are just like old Uncles that say crazy things. I must have been absent when they talked about racism, anyway. I am not a racist. How dare you think that. And besides my opponent is responsible for bringing this up. It never would have been the right wing doing this because they say they like me. It is all her fault. She is divisive. I am all for unity.
I also have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
I am so glad to you are gathering this. Laura Ingraham has the same rant, ignoring information that the tone and excitement of Black worship are often very different from a much more staid White Sunday service. (A fact somethings given for why Blacks prefer a separate congregation.) Ms. Ing, in her phony self-important, would like to be informed fashion sounds as if she has never heard the tone/cadence of Black preaching, never mind MLK. This is truly a tempest in a teapot with all sorts of accusations for why Obama did not walk out, renounce the preacher, etc. As if a whole lot of white churches are not being torn about over the homosexual question. Listening to the criticism of Barack reminds me of the feminist complaint of having to work twice as hard as a male colleague. Here it seems our Black candidate must be much more perfect, ahhh, white as the driven snow, in order to measure up/escape criticism. Just a ridiculous pileon, IMO.
This article strikes me as another specious charge of racism in a campaign that’s already had too many of them. Obama belongs to a church that openly declares itself afro-centric. To most of us, that’s going to sound a bit fishy when the man promises to bring us all together. Given that he hasn’t had much of a track record of doing that, it’s reasonable to look at his background and associates to see what might be learned from them.
Would anyone here think that if John Edwards or Chris Dodd had belonged to a “euro-centric” church that they were OK? Edwards was pilloried as a racist even though he never gave anyone real reason. Dodd probably only escaped that label by being too small to matter.
You don’t need to posit racism to explain any of this stuff. The people you mentioned on the ABC and NBC shows are there all the time. There’s already an imbalance in favor of the elite, rich, and male. One also needn’t posit racism to understand Fox’s fascination with the subject of Pastor Wright. Some of the things Wright has said would set off alarm bells with just about anyone if they were taken out of context. Explaining that context is a much better counter than calling people who racists when they probably don’t deserve the label.
I agree that black people have something to be angry about. That doesn’t stop me from thinking that some forms of that anger sound just as intolerant as white people who complain that black folks get all the breaks, or that they’re all no good because so many are in jail.
I agree that Reverend Wright’s comments were hatefilled and that it is the job of the media to ask why Obama was associated with this man.
I don’t hold Barack Obama accountable for what Wright said, however I do hold him accountable for maintaining a longterm relationship with Reverend Wright when all but the most credulous believe that Obama was aware of the inflammatory nature of what Wright was saying. Obama has offered an explanation for how Wright came to be the way he is but in my opinion Obama has yet to offer a satisfactory explanation for why he had a 20 year relationship with the man.
That damn “guilt by association” game. I guess then that Hillary has no problem with infidelity in marriages. Her husband has done it several times, and a key supporter was just caught doing it.
That’s cool if she’s down with open marriages, but she needs to come clean about it then, so we know who we’re voting for.
And no thanks, I already own several bridges in Brooklyn.
Yes, we did discuss this last week. You attempted to distinguish the matter by initially claiming that Reverend Wright was not part of Obama’s campaign and that the remarks were 4 yers old. I advised that you were wrong on both counts and then proved it.
Moreover, I do not see Ferraro’s remarks as being the same as Reverend Wright’s. I believe his remarks were far worse. Although, I believe hers were offensive.
What I said is that neither campaign should have to answer for the remarks of people who are on the periphery of their campaigns.
But blacks were excluded from white churches, hence the emergence of black churches that play a social role in the black community as well as a religious one.
Lasi i checked, most churches are default euro-centric. Don’t believe me? Check out the paintings/pics of the blue eyed white jesus
So Scarecrow, if it is so natural and expected, given the history of racism in this country, then how do you feel about Obama denouncing these remarks? If it is so commonly heard in black churches (integrated in this case), then how likely is it that Obama, in 20 years of attending that church, never heard such rhetoric from Reverend Wright. Obama has told us that if he had ever heard such language he would have denounced it and quite the church. Do you find this to be a likely scenario? We are not just talking about Obama’s church pastor, we are talking about the man who married the Obamas, baptised their children, and who Obama selected to be his personal spiritual counselor as well as to be a member of his committee of spiritual advisors for his campaign.
On a pragmatic note, you may not think this is fair, but try to picture the fall campaign if Obama is the nominee. Those clips will be everywhere, juxtaposed with clips of Obama extolling this man. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize at hand: we must win this presidency. One more vote on the Supreme Court and you can kiss our rights goodbye. I just do not think Obama will be able to withstand the Republican onslaught, using this ammunition. Hillary can; she has taken everything they had in the last 20 years and withstood it all. She withstood the full might of a federal special prosecutor who had a clear agenda to incriminate her, and he did not lay a glove on her. Who is more likely to win for us in November? That is the critical question and I believe the answer is Hillary.
That is what i reiterated in my comment above, by no means to diminish what you have said but rather that that has been and remains your position
So his remarks are worse now? Why? God Damn America? that is more offensive? what exactly did he say that was so much worse than ferraro?
apologies, mod, i guess i put it a little crudely, so let me try again………(i meant the tape should be on her mouth, i didn’t clarify that part)
donna brazille……..don’t think much of her…….every time she is on the radio or tv that i am aware of, i write a letter………i have lost count of the number of letters.
I guess blacks, hispanics need to keep their mouths shut. The man is a radical and radicals make people uncomfortable but radicals ended slavery in this country, they got suffrage for women and minorities, the assured rights for laborors, they began and fought for civil rights…yeah it’s bad to speak your mind and get shit done in this counrty
When Obama says he rarely heard that kind of talk from Wright before, and if Obama had heard things like that he would challenge Wright about it, and if it was a regular thing at Trinity, he probably wouldn’t have stayed there, that’s not enough for you? Just think Obama’s telling lies?
Of course you can feel that way, but given Obama’s entire life history and everything he himself says, I’ll give Obama the benefit of the doubt.
That’s the kind of institutional dysfunction that really drives me crazy.
What exactly is so difficult to understand about anger at being shafted. I think people who accept their own oppression are mentally disturbed, frankly.
The anti-feminist movement relies heavily on minimizing and ridiculing anger at sexism. Aaaaaargh!
There’s a big difference between “default euro-centric”, at least as I think you’re describing it, and avowedly euro-centric. The former is because most of its members are descended from Europeans. The latter is because it wants it that way. I don’t blame people for just happening to be a particular way. I blame them if they think that’s the only way that is important or right. A label like “afro-centric” or “unashamedly black” (the Trinity UCC’s description of itself implies the latter, as well.
Bravo.
Have you given Hillary the benefit of the doubt on anything?
You are right, I don’t believe it. Obama started distancing himself from Wright when he decided to run for president. Obama did that for a reason. He was well aware of the inflammatory nature of Wright’s sermons and now that everyone is looking, Obama is trying to minimize what he knew.
please speak for yourself – this does not reflect my views in the slightest bit. (and i don’t even buy obama’s “bring us all together” rhetoric).
Yes. Many times over many years.
Are you referring to my comments? If you are then you need to re-read them carefully. That’s not what I’m saying at all. As usual, this discussion has devolved into labeling, which I take to mean that I should stop speaking my mind.
it wants it that way? you have completely dismissed the role that the black church plays in the community (look at its role in the civil rights movement). That is their committment to the black community to support it and give voice to the concerns there, to speak proudly of the heritage aond contributions there because the wider society doesn’t do it.
Sorry, “most of us who aren’t part of such a church” would be a better description.
I thought they were just friends. But they may have had lunch together.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..91774.html
Alvord, let’s not forget that Obama himself has said that he first became aware of these statements when he began his Presidential campaign, early in 2007.
Note the word “implies”. Both your explanation and mine are possibilities. What I’m saying is that instead of labeling such (mis)understanding as racism, that Obama supporters would do better to explain this situation when given the chance.
You’d have to offer some examples in order for me to understand your opinion.
On the clips that have been in perpetual repeat loop since last week, and in the some of the more illuminating sermons that are available online, I hear a sense of despair at the problems of the world–particularly problems faced by the black community, of course–and an anger and resentment that issues of this nature exist.
The central message that has been co-opted from snigglets of Wright’s sermons by the MSM is portrayed as, “The victims of 9/11 are responsible for what they got.” This is BLATANT and abysmal media slant and it is embarrassing to live in a country that gives countenance to such blatant propaganda.
Even in this significantly edited and out of context clip what *my ears* here is a rather more angry pronouncement that you will reap what you sow. America has had a history of exporting a particular brand of imperialism–whether that is convenient to believe or not, it is the truth–and it appears to be Reverend Wright’s contention that sometimes the chickens come home to roost (to mix a barnyard metaphor).
Well, if you take the time to read the transcripts of what organized militant opposition forces say to American imperialism (Osama Bin Laden’s transcripts are available for perusal–it is essentially the same message, “The rest of the world is pissed off with the politics of the American Military Industrial Machine.”
Well, the Bush administration likes to frame it as, “They hate our way of life.” That, surprisingly, actually isn’t too far the truth. Really, they hate the way our way of life is dependent upon dropping bombs on their way of life. People like Reverend Wright seem to recognize this as a problem. I might disagree with the way he delivers his message, but anyone who disagrees with the nature of the message is denying a the facts surrounding the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us of. I don’t have a problem if Obama is hip to that. I have a real problem with a media that isn’t!
Guess you haven’t seen the tons of latino-centric, asian-cantric chruhes out there was well? Isn’t it more pertinent to judge and label any church with -centric as a part of their doctrine and instead examine what the church is doing for the people in the community and its congegation instead of folks sitting 2000 miles away who aren’t assisting in the efforts of the church to improve the community around it?
Yes, it might, but once again that’s not racism, just – well, call it foolishness or ignorance, I suppose. Most of us are in the position of “sitting 2000 miles away”, figuratively if not literally.
I agree but you know that it is going to require the audience (Obama supporters and non obama supporters) to become educated in the broader picture of the black and minority struggles in this country instead of 30 second sound bites to understand
i’m not part of such a church though.
… just asking that you describe what you think, and not attribute your views to others. that is all.
Yes, it describes me, but thanks to where I grew up and where I’ve worked, I also know a good many people who aren’t liberals, but are nevertheless thoughtful people. They express such opinions from time to time. I grew up in mostly white suburbs and didn’t really encounter black people until I went to college. There are a whole lot of such people out there, and many never went to college.
I’ll also remind you that if most of you had seen a church describing itself as “unashamedly white”, you’d have been suspicious of that, as well. I don’t think that requires much mind-reading, either.
I would have thought that Obama started separating himself from Wright when he moved to Washington, D.C. It’s somewaht hard for people who are involved in National politics to maintain their attendance at churches back home.
In addition, I wonder if Obama is much like 90% of this country…only attending church a half dozen times a year, or less.
Regarding that “God Damn America” remark…that, probably more than any others that he made…is so out of synch with what Obama has offered throughout his campaign that it can’t represent what Obama really thinks.
Through all of this isn’t what’s important is what the Candidate thinks…not those around him or who associate with him? Does anyone really think that Obama actually is trying to be President in order to destroy America?
I think that one might have better odds at that with the current office-holder.
Yes, I believe God damn America is worse.
I think Reverend Wright’s claim that the federal government run by rich white men developed AIDS to eradicate blacks is worse.
This is my opinion. You could have a different one. I am fine with that.
Preach on, Scarecrow!
Don’t let CNN off the hook. They’ve milked this “controversy” for as long as they could, too.
Late to the thread but much thanks is never too late, methinks. The MSM pile-on of this “who us? discriminate? why we’re nice white guys” has been a crock. And shame on them.
Thank you, Scarecrow.
What a candidate thinks is something that only he really knows. What he does and who he chooses to associate with are things that we can at least look at and evaluate. I don’t accept the notion that Obama’s views are the same as Wright’s, but he’s been with that church for some time. He will end up explaining his position many times, because there really don’t seem to be many examples of Obama’s stated philosophy in his actions.
not really much to add to this but it’s just another example to me where the mostly white media could simply care less what black folks really think. There seems to be no desire on the part of the media to really ask questions on race, they just sit back and expect black folks never to have anything bad to say and if they do then it’s absolutely shocking since everyone knows that America has done so much for black people.
But that’s not what he actually said. The MSM is trying to make Wright into some sort of Ward Churchill. He was despairing over how people in the 9/11 attacks died over American foreign policy. He wasn’t applauding the attacks, he despaired that they occurred. He was verbally attacking the causation. And it should be noted that he didn’t merely single out US support of Israel as a cause of these attacks (in fact I’d say that he wasn’t clear that this was a “cause” at all). He did criticize the US support of Israel while vilifying the Palestinians. But his “chickens come home to roost” remarks were about a much broader US foreign policy of exploitation.
The fact that these are editted sound-bites, weeded down from hundreds of hours of sermons, strung into a “narrative sequence” by FOX…says to me…be very careful about what’s being done here.
For example, another case of this is the “making Jesus a Black Man” oppressed by Europeans. The fact is that this is taken out of context. The UCC uses this an an metaphor (taken from Paolo Friere), much as they do when they use the Jews in the Wilderness as their own search for God while confronting Mammon. Or when they use the Jewish exile as mirroring their own diaspora in the “Babylons” of capitalistic greed and vice. They aren’t stupid…Jesus wasn’t a sub-Saharan African…but his experience reflects that of a member of an oppressed people under the yoke of a major “civilized” empire intent on homogenizing all the cultures within it. In that way Jesus represents one response (and as Christians his flock would largely agree its an appropriate one) to such oppression. This is “liberation theology”…non-violent, cooperative, charitable, communitarian…yet resistant to acts of oppression.
I’ve heard this line of reasoning a lot over the years, and I think it misses a key difference between the “white” and “black” experiences.
Identity is the key. One side of my family is from Germany and the other from Sweden. I feel “connected” when in those countries. I was raised in America where our customs dominate the culture. Even though I come from a long line of factory workers and farmers, I still feel pretty at ease in American society. The most common images of Jesus and “doG” look like me. The Holidaze we celebrate dominate the society. Hey, all weekend it was St. Patty’s Day and today the kids went to school wearing green and learning about Irish heritage. “White” culture is institutionalized. We do not need to label any church “white.” It’s all around us, all the time.
Black people in America for the most part do not have this. Obama actually talks in detail about this exact issue in his “Dreams…” book, when he’s visiting Kenya for the first time, and how Rev. Wright encouraged him to visit “his home.” (when they first met) Obama discusses the confusion he feels about the Afro-centrism movement in America and his own ancestry. It’s quite eloquent really.
Having spent a lot time in churches that sound a lot like Trinity, I understand and respect the Afro-centrism point of view. I feel it’s a search to find a sense of “Roots” and Identity that many Black American families do not have, and could benefit from. Many other American “minorities” have preserved their traditions since many chose to come here for various reasons, as opposed to much of Black America who’s ancestors were forced here and not allowed to continue customs.
This is a big issue and I gotta run, but wanted to throw that out there, and there are some great writers/speakers about this exact subject. Basically, I do not think it’s fair when people criticize Afro-centrism since us White people can’t call our churches or what have you “Euro-centrist.” We don’t need to since America itself is already dominated Euro-centrism.
A voice in the wilderness about the media double standard…..
I am hoping that everyone has had a chance to read the post at fair.org (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) entitled “Media Hold McCain, Obama to Different Standards”. It should be required reading for all of the media outlets.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3316
you didn’t say “many people i have known” you wrote “most of us” – and that was what i was objecting to. i think you are making assumptions about what other people think (that may or may not be accurate). since i’m a part of “us” i’m asking you know to characterize the views of “us” without some evidence to back up your claim.
i am not doubting that your views are shared by others, even many people that you have known. but i am saying you don’t know what other people here are thinking – at least not as well as each of us knows our own thought and views. let each of us speak for ourselves. please.
Right On!
This has been entirely predictable and Obama has pretty well secured the nomination, so for them to release this information they could have talked about a year ago just shows they hate Democrats and are not objective arbiters of fact. No wonder their audiences are shrinking and the Internet news sources are growing.
It’s been obvious for a long time too that the Republicans are using race and the immigration (faux race) to stir voters. You can imagine the SwiftBoating and other kinds of awful ads they’ll use.
How do we Dems react?
We put racism in the past where it belongs and shame anyone who promotes it today.
Naturally, it’s a hot-button issue and many people respond automatically when they hear something they don’t like. I hope Dems don’t get too caught up in Republican trap discussions. We need to outclass them and represent the true ideals of America. Let McCain go to Philadelphia, Mississippi and talk in hushed tones, but let our candidate go to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and talk about Liberty and Equality for All!
I was eating dinner tonight in a restaurant in South Beach in a sports bar with multiple televisions and for over an hour Fox kept repeating video images of Reverend Wright, the entire time I was eating dinner. I could not hear any of it. Fox is like something out of an all white country club in southwest Georgia in the sixties where at the next table where you can see, you cannot hear but you do not want to hear.
EXACTLY
I am an Atheist so I think you must use reason but the religious aren’t limited and can go nuts. But if they use the good parts of dogma to be on the right side of issues I am happy to agree with them.
What an absolutely silly and over the top comparison. And you would accuse someone else of being extreme. Reverend Wright is not a member of some racist organization that has killed, attacked innocent people with dogs, and yelled racist vile things in the face of children. Nor has he bombed a church. People like you will win out though. You always do. That is why this country is where it is today. Why it will remain so. And why good people will never ever run for political office or even get involved in the political process after this. The loud and trite always get the attention, start the wars, and murder the hopes and dreams of people who want better for themselves and their families. Because all sense of reasoning has been lost. Thank you.
Scarecrow, you didn’t answer this on an earlier posting, but you seem to be trying to answer it in this one, and I hope you will also address the odds of Obama never having heard any of this rhetoric in 20 years of sitting in the pew of his pastor’s church: So Scarecrow, if auch speech in black churches is so appropriate and natural and expected, given the history of racism in this country, then how do you feel about Obama denouncing these remarks? If cooments like these are so often heard in black churches (integrated in this case), then how likely is it that Obama, in 20 years of attending that church, never heard such rhetoric from Reverend Wright. Obama has told us that if he had ever heard such language he would have denounced it and quite the church. Do you find this to be a likely scenario? We are not just talking about Obama’s church pastor, we are talking about the man who married the Obamas, baptised their children, and who Obama selected to be his personal spiritual counselor as well as to be a member of his committee of spiritual advisors for his campaign.
On a pragmatic note, you may not think this is fair, but try to picture the fall campaign if Obama is the nominee. Those clips will be everywhere, juxtaposed with clips of Obama extolling this man. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize at hand: we must win this presidency. One more vote on the Supreme Court and you can kiss our rights goodbye. I just do not think Obama will be able to withstand the Republican onslaught, using this ammunition. Hillary can; she has taken everything they had in the last 20 years and withstood it all. She withstood the full might of a federal special prosecutor who had a clear agenda to incriminate her, and he did not lay a glove on her. Who is more likely to win for us in November? That is the critical question and I believe the answer is Hillary.
I don’t believe the federal government developed AIDS to destroy blacks, although it is possible the federal government developed AIDS and experimented with it in a remote black village and the genie got out of the bottle. Certain facts would seem to be givens. I’m sure we have laboratories using recombinant DNA to create germs for biological warfare just in case, much like we develop weapons systems and then have difficulty disposing of them. The AIDS virus is far more complex than any virus previously known making an evolutionary development unlikely. Then there are the stories the pop up now and then seeking to prove AIDS a natural development like a sailor in the sixties with AIDs like symptoms or a French company using monkies to create vacines which were then used in Africa. These stories may be true or they may be disinformation. Our government has deployed gases and other substances on an unsuspecting populace to see how they work. It infected black prisoners with syphilis. With this history it is understandable, if you are black, to see the federal government as an enemy.