Hi Siun. Thank you. As always, you are so on target.

Apropos wonderful journalism, McClatchy is on fire today.

Siun!

Great post, Siun but it breaks the heart

Siun,
As a veteran, an American and a progressive, thank you for the post. Well done and well said.

Anything in particular? Whenever I see McC in the byline (if that’s what it’s called), I usually give the article content a little more credence…. vague remnants of what journalism used to be.

siun! also in dc this week are starhawk and some of her friends. i don’t know what kind of magic they have planned fpr the 19th, but i’ve participated in two week long actions with them (ftta in miami and rnc in nyc) and was inspired. really wishing i could be there too.

Prysner is a very eloquent speaker….wonder if he has any plans to go into politics?

We would love to comment on this topic, but me and my guy are somewhat persona non grata now.

Lahoma

He shot an Iraqi boy in front of his father. It took a second shot to kill him. He had a photograph of the boy’s open skull. Turner was personally congratulated by his commanding officer, who proceeded to offer a four day pass to anyone who got a kill by stabbing one of the enemy.

They hate us for our freedom.

thank you so much for the audio link… do you have any special suggestions, or should i just start at the beginning?

Siun

As usual, a great post. Thank you. When I think about the soldiers that song “Where Have All the Flowers Gone” keeps running through my head. Will we ever stop needing to heal or bury our young people?

Mahalo, Siun, once again another awesome post!

McClatchy Home Page

Persona non grata…? As if! Aloha, ya’ll!

Let the Siunshine!

How many people have the Bushistas displaced worldwide? It must be somewhere around 15 million for one reason or another. That is about 27 times the number of people who live in my state!

Ditto

O/T breaking:

Bear Stearns has been sold to JP Morgan for $2 a share. BSC had closed the week at $30 (itself about a 47% decline since the problem arose) , so what this says is that they were essentially gone. Moreover, what the feds will now go to great lengths to obfuscate is that Morgan is essentially gonna buy BSC with taxpayer money. The big worry was that the Asian markets trading about to commence would have run the stock all the way down to de-listing, possibly causing a panic spread.

Dicey week coming.

Siun! Thanks for this.

just nauseating

McClatchy has been the only MSM outlet that has renounced the misadventure from the get go… Joe Galloway was one of the true patriots to call it bull shit from the very beginning…!

you said a mouthful

On the Bear Stearns thing: Has anybody noticed that Bear Stearns was worth $30 a share last Monday, was to be bought yesterday at $20 a share, and now JP Morgan will buy it for $2 a share. $2? 1/15th of their value of a week ago. Isn’t it interesting that the CEO of Bear Stearns was saying a week ago that there was no problem — but of course, allowing insiders to cash out at the $30/share rate. I wouldn’t want to be a shareholder. And if I were a shareholder with a lot of stock in Bear Stearns, I’d be hiring lawyers to sue the Bear Stearns execs until their eyeballs bubble and until ALL of their compensation for the last four years was returned to the shareholders as partial recompense for their incompetence, fraud, and theft.

Of course JP Morgan stands a chance of making out like a bandit (if they don’t get bailed out in three months).

Jesus. Some poor fucker robs a bank of $3000 and he gets 3 years, and Bear Stearns execs steal 12 billion (or more) and retire in wealth to the Barbados.

Kiddo and I want everyone to keep promoting progressive participation and please give a hundred percent support to this blog.

And of course the next generation of SBVFT assholes will be gunning for any of these brave men and women, just like the SBVFT went after Kerry, should they ever run for office.

BSC traded at $170 a year ago.

Total market meltdown looms. They’re gonna be workin’ around the clock to paper this over.

And on the atrocities in Iraq: if I had been the father of that boy killed by the Marine, I would have spent the rest of my days on earth killing as many Americans as possible.

When, o when will people learn that all you teach when you kill, is for their friends and family to hate you ever-growing ferocity? My next statement does not apply to Americans only: it seems that every citizenry congratulates itself on its ability to resist attackers and invaders, to rebound from violence committed against them with greater violence against their enemies. So why do soldiers (and their officers and their political leaders) fail to see that the people they attack, occupy, and oppress will have the same pride and resistance?

Persona non grata…? As if! Aloha, ya’ll

!

What he said! I can’t imagine that being true.

For Rachel Corrie, on the fifth anniversary of her death.

Kiddo and I wish for everyone to continue participating in the progressive view. And to support FDL a 100%.

Thankyou

Lahoma.

After about a minute and a half of a clip from the original Winter Solder on Democracy Now! Friday I couldn’t handle any more. It never goes away. If I live to be a thousand it will never go away. I don’t know if I can listen to the same thing, different time, different place, but the same horrific thing again.

As is my habit: Donations to the International Red Cross Red Crescent can be made here. Thanks for giving, if you can.

Oh, I definitely noticed it. Nice work if you can get it.

thank you for that.

starhawk sent out a great piece today on rachel, ism, nonviolence, i/p and everything we remember today. sadly she had posted it online last i checked (it was distributed by email). if siun doesn’t mind, after the thread moves on, i’ll post it (or part of it) here.

I’m sure everyone would be happy with an on-topic comment with a link to information we might not have seen already.

Check it out

http://www.thestockmasters.com/node/404

as always, great stuff. i look forwrad to these sunday “war stories.” Had thought of a couple of questions about Iraq i wanted to ask you, but i forget now.

anyway, thanks again.

Hard to believe it’s been five years since her death. From your link, her beautiful words, so fitting for this post, too:

I think that I should at least mention that
I am also discovering a degree of strength
and of basic ability for humans to remain human
in the direst of circumstances.

I think the word is dignity.

Thank you for bringing her here today, ET. We need the presence of Rachel Corrie and her kindred folk.

thank you

i’d be happy with a “hello”

i went on my honeymooon in Barbados. I love it.

That’s sweet eCAHNomics.

L.

as would I.

I certainly hope that kiddo and lahoma are not persona non grata here. I would be saddened if they went away. I always enjoy their comments.

I think that they will be back maybe after the primary shit is over and done. nerves are raw and on end

Laura Doty, Do you read Aswat Aliraq with any frequency? If so, have you noticed a change in their style and what they cover?

Have that one in my “news” bookmarks but don’t check it every day as I should. The “worms in the water” phrase is chilling.

A female panelist at IVAW spoke of Rachel Corrie at some length (not sure if today or earlier).

I wonder how many of our soldiers will think of themselves as monsters after this is over – assuming that it ever is.

Done. Are there any other organizations working to try assist the Iraqis?

ES, I check it several times a day, but have only been reading it for the past few months…can’t say I’ve noticed a big change. Have you?

Hello selize.

L.

Hello, all — I’m pretty sure that Siun is traveling again today and unable to join us.

But hasn’t she put together some powerful testimony as we approach the fifth anniversary of the worst foreign policy disaster in our country’s history?

Yes, though I have only been reading it about the same amount of time. I will ask DU before I draw further conclusions.

Hello wobblybits.

L.

Inside of eyelids beg for examination. Thank all of you for your wit and wisdom and letting me share your day.

Kiddo and I read your stuff.

L.

Hello, Teddy. Off topic, but I was wondering whether you have heard of the plans for the Million Fag March (the term is used ironically) in KS to protest the activities of the W*stb*r* Baptist Church, which pickets the funerals of servicemembers killed in Iraq. I’m wondering how far and wide news of the event may have travelled.

(((lahoma))) i’m in a huggy mood today and who doesn’t enjoy a hug?

thank you, you’ve made my day.

Yes indeed: Islamic Relief USA, Doctors Without Borders, and Oxfam.

Thank you WB.

Let’s see if we can keep this thread at least somewhere close to the topic of Siun’s excellent post.

Thanks.

Roger that bro. I wasn’t at the first Winter Soldier but my roomate was and he got me involved with the VVAW and we went to Dewey Canyon III together. A year later the feds set him up on a pot charge and it took him forever to beat that rap. To this day I have conflicts with my family because of my involvement. There was certainly a catharsis but don’t anyone think this shit will ever end for these people.

“But hasn’t she put together some powerful testimony as we approach the fifth anniversary of the worst foreign policy disaster in our country’s history?”
_______

Yes. I’ve spent much of the day looking into the Bear Stearns mess, and relatedly, the 5 year look-back trajectory of stuff like the USD against other major world currencies. THIS shit, all of it, is the legacy of George W. Bu’ush and his ship of fools. The crowning “achievement” of his lifetime track record of fucking up everything he ever touched.

Words simply fail to adequately characterize the abomination.

I really like kiddo and Lahoma. Their comments are usually short and to the point, and I’ve never felt they were disruptive.

Yes. I will take my rants over to EmptyWheel, where they are on-topic right now.

hey siun!

great post!

Kiddo says to me we must rise above personal conflicts. Our eyes need to stay focused on the prize. The White House and the progressive movement and giving those who are in desperate need of a hand-up is the agenda. I love kiddo.

Lahoma

Good night. Kiddo and I are going upstairs to bed to watch a movie. In ten minutes the kiddo will be asleep. That’s okay, he’s seen this film many times.

Turner’s first confirmed kill was on April 18, 2006. He shot an Iraqi boy in front of his father. It took a second shot to kill him. He had a photograph of the boy’s open skull. Turner was personally congratulated by his commanding officer, who proceeded to offer a four day pass to anyone who got a kill by stabbing one of the enemy.

I was hoping my heart was beyond further breakage.

good luck mate, on this one…*g*

Typical, we’ll have 500 posts about tedious economic theory but the real deal doesn’t appeal that much. Fuck it and drive on.

Let’s get out of Iraq now. How’s that for being on topic?

Lahoma

Right on, thanks

slightly O/T but yesterday at the farmers market, there was a group there offering information about Islam and were giving out free Korans. They told me that they are there every 3rd saturday in order to help people understand more about the religion and dispel the falsehoods.

Dewey Canyon III

RBG, could you post this Greenspan article in the news ticker…?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/edbd…..fd2ac.html

what’s the real deal, mate? Am feeling like a black Brit tonite…*g*

Jane’s post that went up at noon is still going on – 7 hours and 367 comments.

Siun’s post is really worthwhile and I have saved it. Don’t know when I’ll be able to read it again.

yup

The real deal is the human cost of this war on all sides.

night

mr is down with making a few more donations but we would also like to help these brave soldiers that are brave enough to talk about what they have done and the environment that was created in which they have committed these offenses

I’d like to suggest that the tradition of going to previous posts for off-current topic conversation be maintained. 70s nostalgia is still available, for conversation, I think. (And I say this respectfully, with no intention of criticizing and with NO agenda or veiled communication). Our monstrous behavior wrt Iraq, as those who know me know, is something that preoccupies me.

Sounds good to me, Lahoma! ;-)

ABSOLUTELY. I will join you both there!

raven, people are more likely to comment when they disagree or think they have something to add. what can i add to siun’s post? and since she’s not here to discuss it with us? please don’t take my silence as a sign of lack of interest or concern.

You only have to read the crap that the Neo-Wrongs wrote on the Op-Ed page of todays times to understand that the war they bought was not the war that got fought. As TBogg says, it was us Dirty Fucking Hippies that were againt the Mess O’Potamian Misadventure from the start, but no one listened to us.

Now a generation of young soldiers who joined to serve because they love their country will dream the dreams of war forever, and all we can do is help them become part of our country again. There is little dishonor in their actions, we can’t hate the soldiers sent to do a job that never should have been done. But the War Crimes perpetrated on the people of Iraq need to be answered for by many of those who wrote that dreck on the NYT op-ed page.

Bremer, you licked the boots of your masters Cheney and Bush and foisted political hacks on the Iraqi people at a time when more humanity and less gunfire might have made a difference.

Perle you have been wrong about everything. How do you get up in the morning? Oh, yeah. You’re waiting for your Medal Of Freedom.

Pollack, you need to be carried away be a huge fucking eagle and devoured over 1000 years so you an think on the suffering of the people you so casually dismiss as unworthy.

Pletka, not enough words to say about your misguided world view. My suggestion is you put away the crack pipe and kool-aid and find a shopping cart and live like the intellectual bag-lady you are.

…it turns out that living under Saddam Hussein’s tyranny for decades conditioned Iraqis to accept unearned leadership, to embrace sect and tribe over ideas, and to tolerate unbridled corruption.

That sums up the total expertise of the “Team” that led to this misadventure. They were “unaware” of the realities of the Middle East especially Iraq and the role Saddam played there.

Amazingly the Times thinks it’s doing a service by printing what some of these folks say. I wonder when the Times will issue their statement of their culpability for the death of that child in Iraq. Never is my guess.

Thanks for this post, Siun. When is war ever a good thing? Jees. I’m reminded of Jack who is a Vietnam veteran whom I rode the bus down to Washington, DC from Maine last March to protest the Pentagon. At one of the stops along the way he told me about how he was shot 3 times during his time in Nam (one of the bullets that was lodged in his neck is now part of a necklace he wears). He said his mother tried to take her own life the first time he was shot (she shot herself but lived) after she got off the phone with the military. The next two times he was shot he did not want a call to go home. War effects everyone.

I went to the IVAW (Iraqi Veterans Against the War) and they are taking donations there that support the organization (healthcare for returning vets, etc.) so we’ll kick a little something their way too,

Why doesn’t our Democratic Congress meet to hear the testimony of the Winter Soldiers? Why aren’t our Democratic leaders making Iraq a front-and-center issue? Why don’t our presidential candidates talk about Iraq more?

To tie some threads together, what matters to me in this is human dignity. Rachel Corrie, the Winter Soldiers–then and now–and what we, through our words and actions, can give voice and honor to is the need to respect human dignity. There are so many needs that much be attended to. Some many issues to which Attention Must Be Paid. It can become overwhelming. But, there are a lot of us, to help each other and, sometimes, to take on tasks close to our own hands and hearts and hope that others will do the same.

Good night. I’m leaving you with this link, to a story printed last week at McClatchy that I found very touching.
A pilgrim finds kindness on road to Karbala.

Okay, going to bed. Nite nite everyone. Tomorrow is going to be one hell of a day if the market crashes. I don’t even want to think about it. I have 100 gallons of heating fuel being delivered and I hope I get the “cheap” price before it does! LOL Hey, as a single Mom, this is how ya think. ;-)

Excellent questions to which I have no answers whatever.

What’s you theory?

I wonder if they are keeping their powder dry, and for what exactly?

boa noite, kay

boa noite, Laura and thank you for the links

I wonder how the illustrious gentlemen you’ve listed would like a little of the same treatment that was inflicted upon the Vietnamese or Iraqis. In Nam one thing was to stake Charlie out in the sun, then cut off his eyelids. An old Apache trick. Ever seen a scalp belt? An ear necklace? Ironic that real estate not controlled by the Americans was called Indian Country but various acts usually attributed to Native Americans in western movies was used against the indigenous population. It comes from dehumanizing the indigenous people. Where will Winter Soldier III come from?

Given the history of the U.S., this is perhaps Winter Soldier X?

Why doesn’t our Democratic Congress meet to hear the testimony of the Winter Soldiers? Why aren’t our Democratic leaders making Iraq a front-and-center issue? Why don’t our presidential candidates talk about Iraq more?

I’ll take a swing at this one: political calculation, and fear. The political calculation is this:
“Well, the surge seems to be working, so if I take a strong stand against it and it succeeds, I’ll be on the wrong side of the issue and vulnerable to charges of exposing the country to danger and not supporting the troops.”
Fear, that the Mighty Wurlitzer will successfully tag them with the above labels.

“Doing the right thing” seems to have no place in the equation, IMO. This is pure power politics being played with peoples’ lives, by politicians of both stripes.

I’ll be glad to fly to Austin, TX for Netroots Nation if I can crash at someone’s livingroom floor for the duration…

my email is in my handle…or Facebook…

BRB need to frost a cake and cupcakes for tomorrow

Maybe they are afraid that probing into these matters would be taken by some twisted minds as a failure to “support our troops”

Don’t want to be a party pooper, but IVAW consists of a small % of total vets. That’s why pols don’t pay attention.

I’m on their side, but they’re fighting all of history if they expect to have an influence.

I think they all believe we have to steal the oil, but they won’t admit it out loud.

sorry to break slightly O/T, but. . .

will a u.s. district court judge
sitting in colorado, make sure that
the same rules of law apply to dick
cheney, as applied to bill clinton,
when was the sitting 42nd president?

that is — will he allow a subpoena
for cheney’s deposition to be served by
the u.s. marshals, in a civil case?

we will soon see. . .

[this is the colorado section 1983 law-
suit for false arrest of a man who touched
cheney’s arm, as he shook his hand, in
beaver creek, at a public appearance by
the vice president, and then voiced
his disgust for the iraq war.]

see the subpoena at the above link!

p e a c e

Well, I think McCain’s non-stroll through the market today should be given some headlines, and apparently it’s up to Democrats to make those headlines. There’s no real evidence the surge is a “success” and I certainly don’t think our Congressional leadership should play into that meme.

Perhaps they will hear from their constituents during this “work period.” Will they hear from you?

Five years on, human rights in Iraq disasterous.

IRAQ FAX-IN MONDAY–Let your reps know what you think

You do know it’s the 40th anniversary of the My Lai Massacre?

To me, that’s why you don’t go to war if you don’t have to. I have yet to read or hear about a protracted war where things like this didn’t eventually happen. People are what they are, and when you terrify the crap out of them and give them loaded guns, eventually you get stories like this.

I’m sorry to see all the personal battles rising up here at FDL.
There are so many smart, well informed, caring humans commenting here; it grieves me to see so much conflict.

In my family, growing up, at Sunday dinner we always talked about two of the things you’re never supposed to talk about at dinner: politics and religion. It was often contentious and a scary experience for the future spouses in our fam. But it was all in the family and we all made our arguments and then had dessert and some Irish Cream.

I hope that can happen here.

Back on topic:
How will the Winter Soldiers impact the race for President?
I think the Repubs will distance themselves from the disastrous consequences of the war they championed.
But McCain seems to be in a state of denial on this. He says surge is working, we’ ll be “victorious” in some way.
How do the Dems acknowledge the disaster of this war, the atrocities that the Winter Soldiers speak of, without seeming defeatist? Can we just declare victory, bring our troops home and try to mitigate the consequences?
I’d love to hear some thoughtful suggestions.

My guess is that this will work like the previous Winter Soldier hearing – opponents will find one or two people whose stories or backgrounds don’t check out, and then they’ll imply that all the testimony is lies. Thirty-five years later I still have arguments with people who clearly never read the transcripts of that one.

hey there…how’re things in Noo Orleans?

Exactly.

Kinda on topic

If you don’t like PDF’s and you want to read …

The Pentagon Report Confirming No Iraq Al Qaeda link

click here, or click my name, second post down

THIS shit, all of it, is the legacy of George W. Bu’ush and his ship of fools. The crowning “achievement” of his lifetime track record of fucking up everything he ever touched.

Words simply fail to adequately characterize the abomination.

Actually, I’d say that sums things up pretty well.

FDL..growing family, growing pains…there are some people here I really really love…you know who you are…*g*…and then there are others, well…you don’t get to choose your family members…

But all in all, FDL is good eggs…you need the chicken, to get the eggs…ripped off from Woody Allen…Annie Hall I think…

Iraq disarmed of WMD? Saddam held to account? Iraq has a new Constitution? Power transferred to new Iraqi government?

Yes to all of the above.

All of the objectives of this tragedy were met long ago-the single exception being the objective of maintaining a large field army in the heart of the mideast, with which the US can exercise veto power over local events.
This is an extremely pwerful strategic position, and I can’t see the US retiring from that position on the chessboard without a powerful motivation.

There’s a PDF somewhere? I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, but I hadn’t heard about one.

Once we start running low on those monthly envelopes of cash handed off to ‘tribal sheikhs’ our position will become much dicier.

Then we get to choose, hegemony or survival.

-G

Annie Hall is one of my favorites.
Guy tells the doc his brother is crazy, thinks he’s a chicken.
Doc says why didn’t you bring him in sooner?
Guy says: “we needed the eggs.”

Iraq disarmed of WMD? Saddam held to account? Iraq has a new Constitution? Power transferred to new Iraqi government?

Yes. Exactly. Declare victory and get the hell out.

Oops, just noticed the “download” icons.

Juan Cole wrote this today…

I can still remember, as a child, the other children on the playground boasting that the US was the greatest country in the world, and the pride we all took from that. Predictably, George H. W. Bush’s cokehead son has managed to reduce the US to the second largest economy after the eurozone. Bush was second best all his life, and has managed to make America second best.

Thanks so much for writing about Winter Soldier. So much space on the progressive blogs has been about Hillary vs Barack that I was afraid that this would just drop through the cracks. I’ve heard some of the Winter Soldier hearings on KPFA (SF Bay Area Pacifica affiliate) and it’s powerful, moving, heartbreaking testimony.

Siun, thanks for this important thread. I mentionned the event on a few occasions this weekend. I watched a few hours of it. This was , and still is an important conference. I hope the fine folks here will take time to watch those videos. I’m still heartbroken by the guts pouring from these veterans, and mad as hell at Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush , these ratfuckers war criminals are still out there…

Georgie seems to be taking refuge in the fact fact that history is written many years after the events. He is hoping that his presidency doesn’t seem like a total disaster when viewed by historians one or two hundred years from now.

My hope is that there ARE historians one or two hundred years from now.

In the meantime, I hope that his life is made miserable by people farting in his general direction any time he makes a public appearance. I hope that he is humiliated to the point of insanity. Sorry to be unkind, but he deserves nothing but misery for the rest of his worthless life.

I watched some of it today. I have “Up the River” which reminded me of the time when Winter Soldier was happening. . .it was a turning point for the anti-war movement when Vietnam Veterans started talking. Up to that point, the anti-war effort had fallen largely on deaf ears.

It was only after the Vets began that the Congress became interested. We can hope it happens again.

Someone I know told me a friend of his came home just recently from Iraq. The guy won’t talk about it, just wants it behind him.

I wish these guys and their friends all the best. What a pile ‘o crap we have to clean up after this mess. Like the money problems are not part of the same.

I hope that his life is made miserable by people farting in his general direction.

Amen to that!

He’ll be pretty f-ing miserable when the market crashes on his watch.

I hope the taxpayers figure it out this week, that he did it.

I think the Winter Soldier thing won’t go very far for two reasons.

–You’ll find many service people to give negative accounts of the occupation in Iraq, but I think you’ll also find many soldiers who will give positive accounts as well; add to that the sheer number of personell who never left the green zone during their service, and the voices will sound tiny. Its not popular to say, and it can definitely be taken the wrong way (and it probably will) but this war has definitely gone ”light” on soldiers when compared to other conflicts such as Vietnam. They don’t encounter as much combat, and they don’t get injured and killed in the same numbers. That’s just a fact. This war is horrible, indeed–and has taken the lives of an unfathomable number of Iraqies, but its no Vietnam. Millions of people lost their lives there, strictly through American violence.

And another thing…I don’t want to get flamed my first post out… the war is horribying enough. It doesn’t have to be a Vietnam. I think the similarities are few, in fact, but that doesn’t make it any better.

Regarding atrocities: “The atrocity is the war”. Winter Soldier, 2008

Evening gang ….sorry to miss the post with travel … wanted everyone to know that WarComesHome is editing 2 hour highlight selections of Winter Soldier right now – they deserve a ton of support for being the only media to provide complete coverage …

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/215…..70-t3.html

McClatchy cartoon says it.

Heartbreaking stuff. America’s head still deep in the sand. Will pass along the brave and noble footage.

Thank you.

PDF link

test, only a test

PDF link