Oh look -- we're at it again:
The Central Intelligence Agency secretly detained a suspected member of Al Qaeda for at least six months beginning last summer as part of a program in which C.I.A. officers have been authorized by President Bush to use harsh interrogation techniques, American officials said Friday....
Mr. Bush has defended the use of the secret prisons as a vital tool in American counterterrorism efforts, and last July he signed an executive order that formally reiterated the C.I.A.’s authority to use interrogation techniques more coercive than those permitted by the Pentagon.
Mr. Bush used his veto power last weekend to block legislation that would have prohibited the agency from using the techniques, and this week the House of Representatives failed to override the veto....
Raise your hand if you think that veto pen application had anything to do with legal CYA for the CIA? I'll let Marty apply the smackdown:
Stuart can think of some techniques that result in more severe physical suffering than waterboarding, such as, supposedly, yanking out fingernails. He might be wrong about the fingernails -- as one person who has endured waterboarding explained: "If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question. It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything." But even so, Taylor is of course correct that we can all think of some techniques that would result in more severe suffering than waterboarding. And what, exactly, does that prove? Suffice it to say that "We're not quite as sadistic as the Spanish Inquisition" is not a defense, nor a valid form of statutory construction....
Which brings us to Stuart Taylor's third and final "argument": "Many a lawyer's interpretation of 'severe' might turn on how close in time his decision was to a terrorist mass murder that he fears could soon be repeated. Just as gravity bends light, the need to prevent a catastrophe bends judgment on such subjective questions."
This is very revealing, and I think it is really what's underlying Taylor's (and Mukasey's, and Bradbury's, and Bush's) insistence that the statutory question is "difficult": Basically, that we should not take the statutory restriction seriously at all if our motives are pure enough. If the interrogator, and his apologist lawyers and doctors and officials, are genuinely fearful of terrorist mass murder (and who wouldn't be?), and if they sincerely conclude (albeit without the aid of any actual empirical evidence) that torture is necessary to prevent such "catastrophe," well, then, the physical suffering of their victims just magically becomes less "severe," doesn't it?
David Cole has more on the veto. Jack Balkin has thoughts on the Bush torture legacy. And a rare kudo for William Safire for calling the Bush Administration's twisted language what it is: an attempt to gloss and hide their true conduct and unlawful intent.
I keep going back to that horrifying American Prospect article about American torture of prisoners, and then adding in all the many, many questions about how many innocents have been subjected to this indefinite detention without a full and fair trial...for years, perhaps with us knowing all along that they were innocent. That we whisk people away with no legal recourse to be hidden for however long we decide they should be hidden whether or not they are guilty of anything, hide them from the Red Cross, and violate our legal treaty obligations...and they do not even have the decency to be ashamed of themselves? That's bad enough.
That this leans on the worst of human fears and vengeful behavior to spin out an endless cycle of violence and retribution on all sides, which makes us less safe by their acting the part of the monsters from which they pretend to save us. That they cannot see this is horrible. That we have not been able to stop it is worse.
These are more than violations of law, they are violations of our social contract -- of our moral and ethical responsibility to future generations not to sink back into the barbarism from whence we attempted to rise. We are violating that civic and moral trust to work ever toward a "more perfect union" placed in our generation's hands by the Founders of this nation...and I cannot begin to express the level of anger and shame that we all ought to feel as a result.
Shame on every single one of us.
(YouTube -- trailer for Taxi To The Dark Side.)
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Good morning, young lady.
hello, Christy!
This torture thing is as bad as the illegal attack on Iraq and Afghanistan.
The America brand has really been trashed forever. Nice worth W. And a perfect reason for the USA to be hated and feared wherever they go.
In just hope that when these guys are out that they are pursued by international courts.
Forget about this country as far as “justice” is concerned. It’s very flawed and not blind.
Yeah, this torture shit is fucking horrible. I am ashamed to be an American.
Good morning Christy,
I’ll repost what I wrote earlier this morning, fits in well with the shame on every single one of us. I’ll modify it though, because it is true that we ALL are to blame.
“Young men and women are spilling their guts out this weekend. These are soldiers who have fought in the quagmires that Iraq and afghanistan have become. The one sentiment that comes across most often, is that the violence, the racism, the sexism starts at the the top and trickles down like Niagara Falls. Here is the page that will give you the opportunity to watch a live feed. The testimonies are heartbreaking. Force yourself to listen to this for fifteen minutes, and see how you feel about the psychopatic leadership of our armed forces. “
http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/howtowatch
As I was watching yesterday, one of the moderators talked about his time as an interrogator in Abu Graib, he did not have to say much to make the whole thing so real .
Please, take a few minutes to listen to this.
Rumsfeld, Cheney, Addington and Bush are war criminals.
I really, really, really wish that the media would cover this shite better. They need to b shouting it from the rooftops, and every story about it needs to include McShame’s vote on this. The torture victim voted for torture - even knowing that it was going to be vetoed. He had freaking political cover on this, if he wanted the torture to continue, Georgie was going to make sure it did, so McShames could have voted against it. But he didn’t.
This and Bush need to be tied around his neck like an anvil.
We as a nation need to stand up and repudiate this, at the ballot box, and send a message to the world. It won’t fix the American Brand, but it will be the first step.
I’m ill, thinking about what is being done in our name.
Well, you could have fooled me. Not many people know that during the Vietnam War, when American troops captured VietCong nurses, instead of imprisoning them like they did the German soldiers, they turned these women over to the Korean troops specifically to be tortured. The Koreans were/are notorious for hideous tortures. They relished the sport of slicing parts of these women’s bodies off (you can imagine) so they lingered with pain and infections. Piece by peice their bodies were dismembered, all in good humor.
Unfortunately, rendition is not new. Oh, the horror! The horror!
I get awfully tired of the excuse, there is confusion in war that’s why these things happen. I don’t think so. If I turned another human over to be sliced up, it wouldn’t be out of confusion. That has to be one damned conscious act!
Shorter: Your end justifies your means, if you’re a Republican.
MSNBC’s playing Pastor Wright’s tape yet once again…
Our government is permeated by the spirit of Jack Bauer.
These people are pathological and the military is a magnet for them.
They won’t fess up to it.
We have to support the soldiers yanno.
The French foreign minister, Kouchner said that the US image has been irreparably damaged these long Bush years.
I can’t disagree.
Bush has made us more of a villain, more of an empire, more of a target for the dissaffected.
Heckuva job.
-G
And until Bushco stands trial it will continue to be “shame on all of us”.
We have a military problem in this nation.
We don’t need the military we have. it’s about 10 - 20 times the size it needs to be.
Why do we need fighter jets?
Why do we need nuclear attack subs?
Why do we need subs?
Why do we need carrier “groups”?
Carriers carry fighter jets?
When was the last dog fight in the air?
Why do we need cluster bombs?
What countries are the enemies of the USA which threaten our shores?
War criminals is exactly the right phrase. The only way to absolve ourselves from this national disgrace is to bring the men, and women, responsible to justice. That means either impeachment now or trials later. If we can’t bring ourselves to take either of those steps, America is forever shamed.
I take it the torture advocates must believe that it is perfectly fine for American CIA operatives to be subjected to torture. Because I am unaware of any official CIA uniforms.
-G
well, it’s too late to impeach clinton… and it doesn’t look like bush will be impeached, so maybe trials is the way to go. let’s get them both on the dock.
Get used to that.
707!
Can we hear it from the radical, hateful Rev. John Hagee for John McCain, again? Not on the news enough. McCain said he was very honored to have Pastor John Hagee’s support. You go Mackie. You’re held to a different standard.
Two years ago…
…Three days from now! Sick of IT Day!
it is cheney’s team b and only cheney’s team b that thinks torture is effective
they get more, better, more actionable intel when they don’t use torture
they have made it more likely we will not have the intel we need
they have made it almost impossible to recruit foreign agents that will help us and they know it
the only purpose of torture is to instill fear in the populace and continue unrest, that is the only purpose, they know it, they are fascists and they must be brought to the bar of justiice
Clinton?
If anyone ever gets to one of Obama’s town hall meetings, perhaps they could ask what he will do as President to hold BushCo responsible for the mess they’ve created.
I was thinking Bush, Cheney, and Rice, but I’m sure there are other names that could be added to the list.
The US should become a state party of the rome statue.
Nope. There’s another very important reason to torture, which is to get the victim to say what you want him to say. Best example is the al Libi “confession” of all the connections between SH & AQ.
only if there is reason to believe that he was aware of his administration’s policy of “extraordinary rendition”.
More tortured reasoning?
AP - Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Sunday defended the Federal Reserve’s decision to help rescue Bear Stearns Cos., the teetering Wall Street investment bank. He sidestepped questions about whether other firms are on shaky ground and the possibility of additional interventions of this kind.
Of course keep in mind that Paulson is a Republican appointed by GWB. I think ‘things’ are getting serious, my friends.
No doubt the Cheney/Bush crowd is gungho on torture but all those who go along with it are just as accountable. They get a kick out of torture even if it isn’t effective. If only half dozen people push for torture, that means the hundreds of others in Congress and appointed positions could overwhelm them and make them stop.
I’m sure that people who are losing their homes are comforted by this:
Treasury chief defends Fed intervention
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....dit_crisis
… and the Rome Statute too. ;-)
RNN has a new clip up: Winter Soldier: An Iraqi perspective
thank you wigwam :)
I’ve got a great idea. Lets fight two wars and spend $15,000,000,000 per month on these follies, cut taxes, do a ridiculous rebate/stimulus plan and bail out Bear-Stearns. makes sense to me.
What HAS this country become. Oy.
you a secret repiglican or what???
Not to worry folks. Senator Clinton and the DLC will save us.
Forgot my manners. Morning Christy. Morning pups.
It will help in the very short term. Now if they can just keep this going until BushCo makes their exit they can blame others. The miscalculation here is that more banks will follow and as we print money in the Federal Reserve’s basement, the dollar devalues further. And the spiral increases its downward speed. We haven’t had a bank failure since the Great Depression.
Recession, shrub. We are in a deepen RECESSION (replacement for the “D” word).
I’m not so sure she will. Obama has a new ad encouraging indies and Pukes to become Democrats for a day.
Check out the ad: he’s actually offering to e-mail the form to them. Who’s choosing our nominee?
Wrt those who claim waterboarding isn’t torture (scratch that “respect” part), anyone who has ever experienced a severe asthma attack would tell them to STFU. Being a person who has been hauled by the EMS to the closest ER far too many times, I can testify to exactly what it feels like when you believe you won’t draw another breath. It isn’t a humane thing to say, but I wish that same feeling of terror on all the
peopleanimals who support the practice.I’m what’s called a radical Democrat. Or perhaps just a rad. Mostly my party ‘leadership’ (the Dems don’t care for guys like me). Hope you are having a wonderful Sunday Lone Star morning. ;0)
We need to call BS on their method of trying to rationalize it. Torture is flat out wrong, period.
if only this were true. but it’s not (if you believe jane mayer’s reporting - scroll down to read about what was done during the clinton administration). it looks to me that the original “legal” justification was written during the clinton administration.
i despise bushco as much as the next person, but our (dem) hands are not clean and pretending we can end our participation in torture just because we elect a D president appears to be contradicted by our immediate history.
media, big corporations, voters etc.
I am not precisely what you might call a HRC fan. ;0)
And McCain is in Iraq. As I type.
I know. I’m not exactly an Obama fan either. :-)
From the David Cole link:
Sounds like a gay porn plot in the making.
Deli owner beats off prosciutto wielding thief with a slab of ham.
-G
Here are three very good articles from yesterday on the state of the U.S. economy:
– Paul Krugman, NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03.....ugman.html
– Ian Welsh, FDL: http://firedoglake.com/2008/03.....nke-bind/#
– Jerome a Paris, Dkos: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....803/477181
Does McCain remind anyone aside from me, of Cheney?
no
OT - fyi, today is the 5 year anniversary of rachel corrie’s death.
Good morning everyone.
I would love it if the Bush Regime would release a list of Osama bin Laden’s top aides that they are looking for along with pictures, so we’ll know that they’re not lying to us:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....eheadlines
We are torturing these “higher ups” aren’t we? Or maybe we’re just torturing everyone and it doesn’t matter if they’re a stone mason who was captured or if it was REALLY one of Osama’s buddies? Torture is fun to the Regime, is it not? Spit.
We also need to remind the neocons that if an American is tortured and beheaded by the Iraqis or someone other non-American, then we cannot complain about it, because we’re doing the same thing.
Isn’t it time to end the rule of rich elderly Republican white men?
Aw Rachel, Lahoma and I miss and love you.
Yea, by electing a rich Republican-lite woman,
Yipper!
According to Pat Buchanan, “McCain will make Cheney look like Ghandi”: http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....%E2%80%9D/
Indira?
Your going to crank kiddo up. And you have no idea how long it can take me to calm him down. Hello Raven.
L.
Which means if I were a rug in Baghdad I would be scared right now.
YES!
Morning Kiddo. I see you got up on the feisty side this a.m.
Good on ya!
Oops, and Hi all you pups.
Christy. What can I say?! We’ll follow you anywhere, without fear. There’s no point, none at all, in just standing still and mute.
I’ve been listening to this all morning.
It’s devastating.
I have to wonder what plots are being hatched while McCain is in Iraq.
well, i’m able to look at pictures or video of bush and cheney as long as the sound is off. but i can’t even look at photos of mccain. so, for me he’s the worst. well, i can’t look at photos of condi either.
Why were the comments closed on that thread? Weird.
Hey Raven. G’mornin! Set down yer coffee.
Sally Quinn is Smith too.
Now THAT’s “uptown”!?! blergh…
don’t you go type-casting. remember dear Molly Ivins.
FDL toobz hiccup…double posts!!!
I’ve been watching the Winter Soldier conference this morning online. The panel is discussing the breakdown of the military. One of the guys finished by saying it was ridiculous that people think if the war is criticized it will hurt the troops feelings. What hurts moral is extending tours, and denying benefits when the soldiers return.
“Mr. President, if you’re watching, the command was “protect and defend the constitution. Correct yourself!” He got a standing, cheering ovation.
I noticed none of the bobbleheads mentioned Pres. Shitheel’s ‘romantic’ war comments.
Not that I expected them to say anything.
-G
Hello Adie.
L.
Breathe “In with the good and out with the bad”
Mr. McCain is a very dangerous person.
This is exactly right.
What needs to be done over the course of the next eight or ten months is that we have got to begin to move the dialogue about impeachment into a dialogue about war crimes. It’s all in the framing, and we cannot count on the media to help or cooperate. This has to be done on a grassroots level. We will have to hound our representatives into doing it.
None of this kumbaya shite after the inauguration. We want these bastards held to account.
there is no legal justification for torture, if clinton did it then he needs to face the same charges as bush
Hi (((Lahoma)))! Love it when you pop in.
pssst. i’m thinkin’ we both married well, but then, so did they, heh.
late night last night?
If Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rummie et al were prosecuted as the war criminals they actually are it would send a message to the rest of the world that the citizens of this country will not tolerate torture in our names; that we are outraged by what these radical criminals have done in our name; and that we (citizens of this country)do not want the rest of the world to view us as barbarians. Impeachment would help but prosecuting these criminals for war crimes would be the ultimate message to the rest of the world.
President Shitheel? Bah hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Funny.
Like Rumsfeld, Powell, Rove, Fleischer, Card, Ashcroft, Snow and Gonzalez?
Bingo!!!!!
Does Bush surround himself with bald men to fulfill his head rubbing fetish?
-G
They’re having too much fun running and rerunning clips of ferraro (sp?) and the preacher….and when they get tired of that, they switch to Eliot. :-(
All Hank Paulson needs is Mohammed Saheed Sahaf’s Baghdad Bob Beret to go along with his fantasy laden rhetoric.
-G
I have listened to baldy explain to George and to Blitzer why the capital markets are in such wonderful shape but have not heard him say one substantive fact how he intends to fix the financial meltdown
fuck!
Those all sound right to me.
Thank you. I just went back and read the articles. It’s like a refresher course in economic reality. I hope more people re-read them. I think this has replaced the Iraq War as a primary concern. I don’t hear any of the candidates addressing it.
The Iraq War has depleted this country of its wealth needed to efficiently run our own country. Additionally, this is a massive transference of wealth from the American people to war contractors, propped-up puppets, oil tycoons and other robber barons. Still, so many people bury their collective heads. I have no idea how this will be worked out. Voodoo economics just won’t work any more.
Usually, I see a solution, a silver lining somewhere. This time I don’t. I feel sucked down into a powerful spiral.
that’s a big humungous, elephant-in-the-room message in an of itself, eh?!
Why is it right for working women and men to go broke, but not Bear Stearns?
absolutely right.
I have said it once and I will say it again.
Impeach if for no other reason than to tell subsequent generations that we did not agree with the lawbreaking of our government. Make Bushco go down as the worst administration in history that did get impeached but not convicted. That is fine. All the jerks that are protecting Bushco will go down as the worst of the worst with him.
If the Dems don’t impeach, I think we have a huge problem going forward. I don’t know how we come back from this precipice without losing our country to the Unitary Executive.
exactly my thinking.
I do not like the Iraq war or the DLC. Remind you of anyone?
Hillary Clinton is not my kind of Democrat.
they lack ticket-stubs from the “right” cock-tail parties…
yeah.
and while we’re at it… let’s not forget tom hurndall.
Exactly Kiddo. How come corporate America can’t pull itself up by the boot straps like the rest of us when it fails in business or in staying afloat?
Oh that’s right. Welfare is only reserved for the corporations. Actual children dying of starvation is okay. Spit.
please pretend i didn’t say that…
gotta go shred some stuff for recycling…
Lahoma and I sent $100.00 each to the Obama campaign last night.
Another good clip of Taxi to the Dark Side from DemocaryNow
so true why not Bear.
The sad thing is Bear Stearns is only the beginning by many estimates. Many of the other investment banks and banks are in the same boat or will be soon. I say if the tax payers are going to bail out the companies, just go ahead and nationalize them. If we are going to have to pay we should get the benefit, not the shareholders. The shareholders took on the risk when they bought the stock. We should not natioanlize their losses. We should get the benefit of bailing them out. The government owns them until they recover or become profitable then we can use the profits to payback the taxes that were used for the bailout.
No more bailouts of insolvent banks. Govt take over sure, but bailout has too much moral hazard. What is to keep these jerks from doing this again in ten years?
If they talk about the real out-of-control central issue in this country, we will have a run on the banks. Keep the masses entertained and asleep. MSM is a tranqualizer for the masses.
It’s dawn in America. And Senator Obama has been up since before daylight.
This time next week we may be discussing “The Crash of 2008.” I have an uneasy feeling that the Bear Stearns thing was simply quickly throwing a sheet of one corpse of many to come. I hope I’m wrong.
News Flash! The buzzards apparently like Clinton, OH better than Hinckley.
But they’re baaaaack!
I like your thinking.
Why do I see in my mind’s eye Hillary at 3am in the morning with white face cream on her face, slices of cucumbers on her eyes and her hair in rollers? LOL!
Now picture StVain in same git-up.
Yes it is rather upsetting, BobbyG.