The largest salmon run in the largest estuary on this hemisphere’s Pacific Coast has collapsed. Why care about a bunch of fish and a big marsh? Well, healthy salmon runs require healthy water: fresh and salt. Crashing salmon runs tell us something in the water(s) has gone terrribly wrong. SF Bay fresh water is sucked up to supply central California crops and communities and Southern California taps. With over 17 million people in the LA area alone, and with California producing over half the nation’s fruit, vegetables, and nuts, SF Bay water affects the price of your greens – and the health of your family, wherever they live. And the salmon tell us the Bay is very sick.
How could the fate of one bay and one fish have such a huge impact? Well, estuaries are the final common pathway that carry a whole river – or multiple rivers – to the sea. The estuary that is the San Francisco Bay holds the water draining from almost one-half the land area of California: the estuary alone covers almost 1,600 square miles. The Sacramento River drains all water from the lands south of Mount Shasta (near the Oregon border) down through the Central Valley to Sacramento, and the San Joaquin River – when it flows – carries water from the arid counties north of the LA sprawl up to join with the Sacramento. Together, the two rivers formed the Bay. For millenia, both rivers carried spring flood waters from the western slopes of the Sierra Nevada across their respective valleys, covering the land between the Sierras and California’s coastal mountainns with a deep layer of rich fertile soil. This ancent gift created the most productive soils in America. Though much of this priceless resource has been covered by sprawl, the remaining soil is rich enough to produce 30 Billion dollars in produce each year, generating 100 Billion dollars for California’s economy.
WTF does all this have to do with salmon? Well, salmon depend on healthy fresh water for the beginning of their lives – and to begin the next generation. Each new generation of salmon arises from eggs laid and fertilized by their parents, who beat their way back upstream to spawn – and then die – in the precise stretch of water where they hatched out. On the way upstream, the adult salmon stop eating: their bodies nourish them. The hatchlings chow down in fresh water, swim out to sea and fatten up, and return to fresh water a few years later to begin the cycle anew. Salmon are so tied into West Coast biology that the nutrients the adult fish carry upstream in their bodies nourish the forests surrounding spawning beds: the trees return the favor by shading streams, keeping the water cool enough so the eggs and hatchlings will survive. A salmon "run" is the group of salmon that hatch out in a given stream or river at a certain time of year. Although the California coast once supported runs all the way south to Santa Barbara, with abundant runs in every season, the last decades have seen so much habitat destruction and water diversion that only two large river systems – the Sacramento and the Klamath – are healthy enough to support commercial salmon fisheries.
Even those two systems are teetering. If "crashing salmon runs" in California seems like a repeat, you’re right. Federally subsidized alfalfa farmers on/around the Klamath Basin use more water than the Klamath can sustain. In 2002, Rove/Cheney intervened to divert scarce flows to the Klamath welfare farmers. Result? 70,000 salmon downstream died as the now-shallow Klamath overheated. This caused a partial shut down of Pacific Coast salmon fisheries in 2005-2006, with net costs in the tens of millions.
The Klamath salmon died on their way out to sea. The now-collapsed Sacramento RIver salmon run was healthy enough as the left the Sacramento RIver on the way to the ocean for their return date with last fall – but that run was decimated.
The chinook salmon runs in the Sacramento River are the second lowest ever recorded, and the 90,000 adult fish are only one-tenth the all-time high (800,000 recorded five years ago)
What do the salmon meet as they leave the Sacramento for the sea? Well, they meet the immense pumps that suck up fresh water from the San Francisco Bay estuary (aka the Delta) and pump it to water lawns and subsidized commodity crops – along with water for 20 million Californians.
The Sacramento River’s "missing salmon" were juveniles migrating to sea in spring 2005, when state and federal water managers "set records for pumping delta water south," said Mike Sherwood, an attorney with Earthjustice, a nonprofit environmental legal group that has been jousting with water managers over water exports.
These pumps so damage the Delta’s aquasystems that last month a Federal judge ordered large decreases in the volume of water siphoned out of the Delta, in the hope of preventing extinction of several (non-salmon) fish species.
The court action comes too late for the Sacramento salmon run – and the thousands of fishermen and millions of families looking forward to this delicious gift. Yesterday – with the full agreement of West Coast fishermen – Federal officials proposed closure of the entire Sacramento salmon season. Early season fishing was ordered closed a few days ago.
We clever humans just crashed the biggest indicator species for half of all the land in California. As the salmon collapse, why should we expect to do better?
Bon appetit.
[NOTE: As with other eco-posts, this is NOT a Dem candidate thread. Comments about Dem candidates, why they suck/rule, what you and your household think about them - none of that is welcome here. For the next two hours, those so inclined can find another place on the net to park the fanboy advocacy and sniping. Neither that content nor those who insist on excreting it have a place in this discussion.]



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Hey, Doc, how are you?
Bushco = WMDs
Everything they touch.
This is an awful situation. I don’t know what the salmon fishermen will do to feed their families and I certainly am concerned about the conditions that caused this. I also really love salmon.
Excellent post, Kirk. Thank you. Only had one steelhead in the creek this year and spawning tends to not be a solo activity.
Fresh news in the news box on topic
If I remember correctly the Bush Administration screwed the Klamath River salmon run to help a bunch of potato farmers. The potato crop was worth less than 1/3 of the ruined salmon run.
By the time this administration is done, even if we all had more money in our pockets from all those tax cuts, there would be nothing we could spend it on with any degree of safety. Last night we talked about beef; tonight it’s salmon. Buy a toy for your children if you dare, it will be painted with lead, because those charged with insuring product safety are too busy not doing the job and the administration has reduced staff so much that they couldn’t if they wanted to. The air is more polluted, the water, likewise. I can’t wait for the end of this corrupt, incompetent administration.
Sorry, wrong link for the salmon story in the news box. This is the correct one.
Hi Kirk:
Excellent post…all I need to know about salmon…
Hi folks – thanks for all of your interest in this unfolding eco-castrophe. As Twain point out, this is also a human catastrophe – following on the recent closure of the Klamath fishery (as griffj98 points out, engineered by Bush/Cheney/Rove), these independent small businessmen face economic ruin. TO their credit, the West Coast Fisherman are supporting the closure to prevent the salmon’s extinction. They will require Federal disaster funding to allow their own survivial – I hope they recieve it.
Not if you haven’t caught on it isn’t!
Now take what Kirk just outlined so brilliantly and apply it to the smaller rivers as you go north. For the second time in two years, the Northcoast will suffer severe economic hardship because of a failed/closed/suspended fishing season.
The salmon that come from the Sacramento River provide the salmon for the entire Northern Pacific coast. The outlook is so poor that 46 Federal lawmakers from Washington, Oregon and California have already made an official request to the secretary of Commerce to ease the way for relief funds for affected tribes, fishermen, fisheris and related businesses.
Those entities are just now receiving some 60-million dollars in relief funds from the fishery failure of 2006, driven by decisions made by Dick Cheney to continue to divert river water for agriculture in the Klamath region.
I could go on and on, but you get the drift.
why live in a country wherethe populous doesnt care what they eat,drink,or get for medicine………..this country is caput!!!the end
Caught one
Come on now, get up stand up!
Stop the war and start spending money on saving the frikkin’ world. Goddess, I despise these people!!!
Hi Kirk… This is my first time responding to one of your threads, so I thought I’d introduce myself. I live in Evanston, IL, where my watershed straddles the Great Lakes and the Des Plaines/Illinois/Missippi Rivers. I drink from the first and pee into the later.
I read your thread a while back about the Great Lakes and the suppressed environmental and health study. I live right by the beach and swim in Lake Michigan pretty much all summer. Its a part of me, even becoming a component of my b.o.
At one time, the Great Lakes supported a substantial commercial fishing industry. That has collapsed.
Oh, yeah…what money.
I wouldn’t count on disaster relief. If it comes, it probably will be too late. I am so glad you brought this subject up because people around the country need to know that they could be next to learn that an industry like this can be destroyed in a short time.
im so sick of the idiocy….talk about shooting yourself in the foot…we are shooting ourselves through the temple
Here’s another good reference, with some local flavor …
http://www.times-standard.com/ci_8583114
Another factor crashing Pacific salmon runs (farther north) is – surprise – commercial salmon farms. The salmon pens act as huge breeding grounds for parasites called sea lice: the sea lice drive wild salmon runs to extinction. For all of us who love salmon, never eating another piece of farmed salmon is the best choice we can possibly make. Salmon farms are evil.
people!!!!! mebbe 5,000 families in this country,are running off with all the goods…wake up!!!
welcome beguiner – i found out that once i de-lurked, it is hard to go back to being silent again.
done.,i dont like it anyway,its more slimey
begunier, welcome – thanks for joining us – and thanks for your excellent description of watersheds (and watershedding!)
Ding.
Here is a visual demonstration of what happens to a river when its destroyed …
http://flickr.com/photos/hydroreform/284927771/
Last Salmon I caught was right across the lake from you.
Welcome! Great comment beguiner!
yes welcome…what will stop our whosale indifference?
Welcome. Are you saying that there is no more fishing in Lake Michigan at all?
Not giving up, that’s fer sure!
that is wholsale
Mother Earth is crying out for relief in the only way she knows how.
I went “salmon snagging” once in upstate NY…it was actually pretty awful…dead fish all over the place…
if i could afford to id live in BritishIsles
Yeah, sounds like she’s callin’ the loan.
your a good’un thats fer sure..”g”
We don’t allow salmon farming in Alaska.
The last time I had Sacramento River Chinook salmon was 32 years ago this month. The last time I was in SFO. We went to a dinner at a place called the Artaud Foundation. The salmon was delicious. It snowed two inches in the City that night.
People were saying then the salmon would be gone in 20 years. They were wrong – it took 12 years longer to do them in.
:(
we must absolutely cast the blame on this depraved administration, we must absolutely and totally rebuke their depraved definiition of the role of government
they must know before they leave office that the entire country will blame them for whatever follows in their wake
Lake Michigan Fishing
The Great Lakes are a lot better than the used to be but it’s because they were so bad people got off their asses.
humboldtblue, thanks for your kind assessment – and thanks for your river’s eye view of how this tragedy affects creatures (finned and legged) all the way up the coast. thanks also for the pic of the oxygen-sucking algae on the (too-warm) Klamath: tragedy engineered by Rove/Cheney to (superficially) win “sagebrush rebellion” votes as part of the deep strategy of trashing all Federal enviro protections. May they suffocate in mouldering dead salmon (metaphorically speaking, of course)
Somebody gave me my asterisk back – heh…..
Great post, Kirk — but there’s a bad link under the “70,000 salmon downstream . . .” sentence.
Would that the California salmon collapse was the worst fishery crash the world faces. Or the worst example of insult to the environment California exhibits.
Thanks, Raven. I saved the recipes, too. I really love fish and I plan to eat a lot of it before it’s all gone.
I grew up about five miles below the Nimbus Dam and right next to the American River. Me and my pals will forever be American River rats. I am nothing, if not green.
I’m afraid that Mother Earth is fighting for her own survival. I fear she’s preparing to get rid of us because that the only way she knows she will survive.
What are we getting when we buy “Wild Salmon” at a grocery store?
could you explain that asterisk for me please ed?
My son and I used to regularly go to Muir Woods to look for the salmon returning up the Redwood Creek and/or the fry hatching and heading downstream.
From the official streamwatchers’ reports this year, NOT ONE COHO SALMON was seen returning.
In addition to the kinds of things you cite here, Kirk, the Marin Independent Journal suggests yet another possible factor: the November tanker spill in the SF Bay.
I think he has no use for a Dubya at all.
ahhhhh HA!
now THAT is EXCELLANT!
I wish I had a w in my name too so I could stop using it
man that is great stuff
Refresh the page and broken link in the post has been fixed.
oops – thanks peterr! the Lake’s water sprites are working to remedy my goof!
and peterr – that’s terrible news about Muir Creek. OMG – not one.
wrt to toxins – haven’t seen the IJ article, but toxins sure could be players, as well- another facotr pushing stressed ecosystmes to decline. as the spill washed up north of the gate, the muir creek run would have to pass right through that to find (smell) their way – i can’t imagine how the filthy marine fuel oil would affect salmon’s olfaction (sense of taste/smell from water chemistry) …
Welcome! We have lots of people from around the Great Lakes here.
SPAWN USA (Salmon Protection and Watershed Network) is a great resource site for information on this issue in Northern California. They highlight a lot of the political and advocacy efforts, scientific studies, and also workdays to restore and protect various watersheds. During the spawning season, they would post updates so that folks who wanted to watch for the returning fish would have a sense for where that might be happening.
It’s frightening to see how bad this year has been.
SPAWN USA link here.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
Preview . . .
I live on the American River. Can see it from my backyard. As a matter of a fact I just came back from a walk with Wally the Dog.
We waited for months for the salmon to return. There were very few.
Another factor in the problem is the management of the dams. The salmon were hanging back in the bay or the wetlands because the stupids that let the water out of Folsom dam had it at two degrees too warm. They can pull the water out at certain levels to create the perfect temperature.
Also, Ron fishes back there. He and others noticed last year as they were standing in the river the level would drop a foot in a few minutes. Later it would come back up. This seriously fucks with the fishes’ swim bladders.
I think they are messing with the salmon to be rid of them. Then the water is all theirs.
Fuckery all around.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
Preview . . .
my daily affirmation
aka the peterr prayer
the Great Lakes? Oh, you mean that Great Lakes of the Upper Midwest…*g*
I can’t imagine that it would have helped matters.
(The Marin IJ article is at the link under NOT ONE COHO SALMON in the sentence above.)
My other daily affirmation is this: don’t feed the trolls.
He’s back! Great to see ya again…! ;-)
Aloha, Doc, Great Post!
I remember that night! I lived in SF. I was 26. Crazy!
What kind soul gave you your “real” name back? Cool. Glad to see you here, Raven, after the tornado. Has eCAHN been about today, anybody know?
Wow peterr – thanks for that link and the link for SPAWN.
FOr everyone: what affects water quality where you live? If you eat fish, where is the nearest body of water you’d feel safe eating fish from?
It’s amazing what people have put up on YouTube: salmon spawning in the Lagunitas Creek last December.
re: salmon as food:
lol
My daily affirmation is more like
“I’m still here?! Cool!”
I have sort a “to be” list….
She popped in and out of Ian’s thread… BTW, Ian is still answering questions…! *g*
and for those of us on the east coast… i was just reading about the Menhaden. :(
Not the night Van wrote “Snow in San Anselmo”?
OKK, did you ever get to the Oroville salmon hatchery while a student at Chico State? I did, and it was amazing. I learned so much! The other thing I learned was the devastation to California (including the San Onofre nuclear power plant) were the damn to break in an earthquake.
a real tragedy – and another reason i avoid farmed fish. IIRC 2/3 of all the calories in the fish ground up for (farmed) fish food are wasted – IIRC menhaden have fallen victim to this…
can you share what you are reading aboout the Menhaden?
Heh, even tho I’m amidst the Pacific, I’m leery of the reef fish(Cigatera) and the deep sea fish have elevated mercury levels… Did I mention the Pacific spans over one third of the Earth’s surface…? 8-(
Could very well be. Ron was living in San Anselmo then. geez.
Many thanks for this post, and link to the LA Times and ENN stories, and also the SPAWN USA link. I was wondering what might have caused the low season. I did not know that pumping from the delta had been at record levels over the last two years. It makes sense, because rainfall and Sierra snowpack have been below normal last two years, and local governments were talking about gearing up for drought conditions if this year had been subnormal also.
Fortunately, this is turning out to be a wet year with good snowpack, so we were close to normal resevoir levels as of end of January, and Feb and now some March rains might put us at normal levels.
There are conservation groups that have been advocating partially restoring the San Joaquin River salmon run, along with other riparian goodies that would accompany that. Here is an NRDC link describing the effort.
http://www.nrdc.org/water/cons…..oaquin.asp
I hope the good work continues, and am very sad there has been a set back. I can only hope that my beloved Central California countryside can be saved from total destruction from greed and shortsighted policies.
But the recklessness and greed of industrial ag and cities is depressing. And having an administration that has an anti-conservation ethos is not helping. Remember, it was the vile Cheney who said conservation was OK for fostering a feeling of virtue, but not good for solving anything.
But, if these guys are the responsible daddies who represent sensible conservative values, what happened to the old saying ‘Waste not, want not.’
Who took ‘conservation’ out of ‘conservative’? I would guess it is the radical reactionary greedheads who care about nothing but grabbing as much power and money as possible in the shortest time, the consequences be damned.
Oh and as I walked along the American River today it was back down to the lowest I have seen it.
P.S. I saw an bald eagle a few weeks ago.
I wish the whole west coast would ban salmon farming. the Alaska fishery has shown that with proper management, sustainable wild fisheries can succeed. Of course, so far, their rivers have not been messed with nearly as much as in California.
I won’t buy farmed salmon. It doesn’t even taste like realsalmon anyway.
Never did get to the hatchery. Didn’t even know there was one there. But as to the Nimbus hatchery, been there so, so many times. Hope you are having a great night. I miss Butte County. And Chico State.
Lahoma and okk
When I was a young kiddo, me and my pals would play hooky from Mills and Cordova High and go to the river. We’d spend all day there and never see anyone on the River but ourselves. Times have changed. The Old Fair Oaks bridge was the only way to drive across the river then. There was no Sunrise Bridge or Watt Ave. Bridge.
I may be wrong, but from what I have read of salmon, seems like global warming would not cause such drastic changes from year to year. As noted above by many commenters, annual changes in water agency policies would have far more impact on temperature and level of water in the rivers.
So, first priority is to get political means to stop the destruction of environment. Now, even the commercially necessary and profitable part of environment is at risk, since our current power brokers believe that the groups sucking up the water can be captured for political use if they get all they want whenever they want, at no cost.
It is not too late. The San Joaquin salmon run still exists. Almost 100 years after the San Joaquin went dry before its salmon run began, the descendents of those salmon still turn south in the delta and sniff for their old river. Then they realize it is no dice again for another year, and turn north with their Sacromento valley cousins.
Sacramento River Preservation Trust has some info about the river in Butte County you may enjoy, kiddo
Want to really get a look at what’s going on? Check out the coral reefs in the Caribbean.
Thanks for the welcomes.
Fresh water and air are ultimately the most precious resource on the planet — much more so than petroleum. The Indiana Department of Natural Resources has issued permits to British Petroleum (BP) allowing increases discharges to the Lake and the air. Their discharge limits for total suspended solids (TSS) and ammonia have increased substantially. BP is literally shitting and pissing on us all. Am I supposed to just take it on the face and smile?
I will take a look. Thanks. ;0)
Is that a rhetorical question?
and that is why many water districts are becoming privatized. Water equals money.
Apparently…! ;-)
Bears get through hibernation from salmon fat.
The Nolo river In the Fort Bragg Demonstration is umbrellaed with redwood canopy where the salmom dig in the gravel to spawn. Clear cuts produce silt runoff that make spawning/fertilization difficult. The lumber industry has a responsibility.
I was rowing on the Kalamath, some of the lake/tribuaries were so polluted it is disgusting. Wildland firealso cuase silting on the salmom runs which get worse with global warming.
The USEPA under the next administration must initiate proactive projects to reverse this and other environmental damage.
Watershed is a good way to look at your area: from the highest snow packs which are now covered with endocrine disruptors.
The chemical Endocrine Disruptors get in the fish and other animals and feminise them and they are unable to reproduce. There are 86,000 domestic chemicals manufactured including pharmas in the US that are being tested to see action levels. The EPA stopped and the National Resources Defencse Counselfiled suit in the US Federal Court in SF and forced them to continue. All our waters are infested with these chemicals. Salmon get crooked spines and a host of other maladies that make them nob viale. I can provide the EPA Endocrine disrupter address if you want to do some heavy reading. The chemistry industry is not supporting eco freindly substances.
As Kirk says it is an indicator that salmon are sick…thw whole system of plants and animals is impacted.www.nrdc.org http://www.world wildlifefederation,.org usepa endocrinedisrupter testing program EDSTAP
I am prepared to say George W. Bush is an environmental monster.
Ever see that movie “Nothing But Trouble”?
Kiddo – how much fishing do you get to do these days?
The Central Valley rivers and the delta used to be another world. When I was very young, I remember hearing the very old timers in my family talk about how they could boat and through a maze of river channels, sandbanks and islands, woodlands, full of wildlife all the way from Fresno to SF. Would catch as much fish as they wanted, and pick wild berries until they couldn’t eat any more. And as much salmon as they wanted during the run.
I have seen old pictures of packet steam boats that used to go up and down Sacromento and San Joaquin valleys -as late as the 1920s. I read someplace that one of the Mississippi River toursit steam boats is an old California steamer that went up and down the Sacramento River. It has a sister ship that is now tied up at the Sacramento old gold rush disctrict and is now a restaurant and hotel.
Correction that was Jackson State Demonstration forrest in Fort Bragg
I went camping (after about a five mile hike) on the American River outside of Auburn. Just the most beautiful place imaginable. Swam and drank the water about 35 years ago. I often wonder what that spot is like now.
RE:
“I can provide the EPA Endocrine disrupter address if you want to do some heavy reading. The chemistry industry is not supporting eco freindly substances.”
—-
I would like that link very much, if you are still here. thanks for your comment.
wesgpc, that resilence gives me hope – as does the effort to rewater the San Joaquin River. And you and Mary are dead-on (literally) about privatization.
Which is why DiFi’ complicity in giving away subsidized Federal water to the few hundred families in the Weslands water distcit is so scary. THe proposed giveaway would allow the Lords of the Westlands apporx 40 Billion – form our water – by letting them sel lthe water on the opne market (up to 1,000 dollars per acre foot).
That’s why this news (from Dan Barcher via aquafornia) is so ominous:
Posted on February 23rd, 2008 by Aqua Blog Maven
From Dan Bacher at IndyBay.org, this commentary regarding Feinstein & Schwarzenegger’s recent closed door meetings:
A fair amount. The Red River is close by (about two miles) and I fish for catfish there. My lady and me usually ride our horses down there and in an hour or so I have caught our supper.
Well, why do you think W bought the particular ranch he did in Paraguay? It supposedly sits on the best water in the western hemisphere. How did he know that, I wonder?
I used to got to Chili Bar a lot.
Not just harmful to the environment, we the people, too…
wesgpc and mary, that sounds lyrical
_ _ _
and my bad to Ann in AX – “hi” back atcha – i was tinkering with typos when thred went up – missed yr nice #1 congrats on the zed!
great post kirk, but haven’t read all comments yet, so hope am not repeating…….
just read a great article about all of this, said fisheries and fishermen don’t want to put themselves into extinction, are listening to environmental people, good article, but can’t find it, (believe it when i see it, but sounded good)
but here’s another one about the fishing ban. similar to the sf article you linked.
http://sports.espn.go.com/outd…..id=2402133
the newshour just did a report on the water court case…….said court case ruling will cause a cut in pumping up to 1/3 of present levels.
report equated it to biologists proving that the delta smelt, a federally protected fish, is disappearing due to being sucked into pumps.
showed them netting fish for one day, they didn[’t find one smelt. just american chads…..one whole day, not one.
ok, off to read comments.
Spent a lot of time on the Feather River when I lived in Paradise. Used to get on my dirt bike and ride the fire breaks to the river.
The best thing you can do to help is to eat organically grown food…a little more expensive but has NO pesticides and no chemical fertilizers. This kind of farming does not pollute the water shed that the fish has to move through.
The gills are the organ that takes oxygen out of the water and also pollutants. I think endocrine disruptors have a big part in the infertility of the salmon reproductice cycle especially the male that fertilise the roe. The pesticides used in industrial framing like dioxin-4 are deadly. they kill pests but other non targeted species.
British scientist have been working on trps that atract one of the opposite sex of the bug populatuions that damage the crops so deadly chems do not have to be used. That was almost 40 years ago in Rhodesia to protect the white corn crop a staple of the African diet.
And a further question might be why aren’t members of the Chamber of Commerce scorned throughout America?
beguiner, BP’s actions are repulsive. thanks for cluing us in. not to pu the onus on you, but have heard if locals in your area are organizing to fight?
Given that kind of news at the state level, projects like the one highlighted by SPAWN USA at the local level are even more critical:
Emphasis in the original.
For those who don’t know the regional politics, this kind of moratorium for a research project is stunning. Of course, so is the calamity that has befallen the salmon.
I have given up on Feinstein, especially when big bucks or defense contracting is at issue. The most environmentally damaging water intensive, subsidized crops in the Central Valley are rice and cotton. It is run by huge agribusiness and very wealthy families. It is completely artifical and would not exist except for subsidized water sold to them for pennies on the dollar. I hope it goes away.
Of course, a lot of crops in CA are environmental nightmares. The stuff they use for soil fumigation needed for strawberries and sweet potatoes is scary. And we cannot even force those industries to change even though there are environmentally and economically feasible alternatives that are less damaging.
The rice and cotton industry is even bigger and more powerful, so it is difficult to reduce their free goodies. If the US really believed in free trade, there would be a much smaller rice and cotton industry in this country, and none at all in California.
That’s alright! I was busy reading the thread, and then I had to go back and read Ian’s thread, so we’re even.
So have you seen any changes in fish populations where you are?
wow dmac – thanks for info…so glad NH is picking up on Delta’s eco-collapse
holy spawning grounds peterr – that is amazing – thanks for the much needed good news
OT
“The pilot of an F-16C fighter jet that crashed in a rugged area of western Arizona was killed when his plane went down, Air Force officials confirmed Saturday.
The student pilot was practicing air-to-air combat with another F-16 from Luke Air Force Base about noon Friday when his plane crashed, base spokeswoman Mary Jo May said.”
When was the last time two nations engaged in air to air combat?
I worked at Nashville West before I worked at Holiday Inn. (It was brand new then!) Remember the great ribs at the place run by the (only?) black family? I was there 73-76. The food was so good everywhere you went! Back before the chains took over. sigh*
I’ll see you guys later. I had to do some lawn mowing today, and with emphysema, I think I overdid it a bit. I need to go lay down for awhile.
raven at 14
ya mon, get up, stand up, stand up for your rights!
now that’s gonna be stuck in my head for days……….
Heh, It’s rather daunting to have two hefty tomes posted back-to-back, eh? *g*
Thanks for visiting and your comments, Ann – good breathing and good rest to you!
Which two nations?
Come back later! I have a John McCain quiz for later if Suz permits. Hope you feel better…
I may add that these restoration projects would also help a lot with areas that have local flooding problems.
There are several communities in the Napa Sonoma counties that have regular and severe local flooding problems. It turns out that restoration of just a small part of the natural flood plains can be a very cost-effective way to reduce flooding danger.
But no big money in it, so they are either not pursued or not completed. There is one project that is 90% completed up in the CA wine country, but funds were cut, and it just sits there unfinished. Helps a little, but would be much more effective if it were completed. But, as I said, too cheap to be of much value for political favors and crony capitalism, so it cannot be finished because funds were cut.
And has been in news recently, in CA at least, if not the whole US, parts of Central Valley second in line for catastrophic flood risk after New Orleans. Except it will be the next big earthquake ( a ‘when’ and not an ‘if’, and with no warning for evacuations) instead of a hurricane, that will do us in. Create a humongous drinking water crisis for CA cities as well.
In response to bigbrother @ 93
RE:
“I can provide the EPA Endocrine disrupter address if you want to do some heavy reading. The chemistry industry is not supporting eco freindly substances.”
—-
I would like that link very much, if you are still here. thanks for your comment.
Here you go:
http://www.epa.gov/endo/pubs/edspoverview/finalrpt.htm
Copy and paste in your browser should get you to the main page with summary, conclusion and recomendations. There is also a large addendum with technical papers. In all about 16 section each with chapters. Essentially in vivo and ex vitro experiments on frogs, mice and other vertebrates. Let us know what you think.
The NRDC lawsuit was joined by some Indian tribes to be found on the 5ths federal court registry or the NRDC site may have a link. It has some interesting arguments worth the time.
No. But we have had an announcement on last Friday, that there is a problem with our drinking water in this area (about 50 square miles). And that would be that we have exceeded our maximum contaniment level for total trihalomethanes. The standard for trihlomethanes is 0.080 mg/l. We are now at a level 0.134 mg/l. We have been instructed to drink bottled H2O. Trihalomethane ingestion can involve liver, kidney or central nervous system problems.
LooHoo, you ask such good questions. ONe of the saddest scams I’ve seen is how the megacorps have hollowed out local identity/interests by annealinig local Cof C’s (once often surprisingly tough deenders of local eco-resources due to torusit golaars, if nothing else) into tentacles of megacorp PR. The local business owners end up paying to carry the PR water for the same Wall Street interests that already decimate the local Main Street.
I’ve ofetn woondered if breaking the link between local business and local eco-protection was part of the GOP’s goals in their sustained effort to brand concern for local health and safety (and beauty) as “anti-business”.
After the Indiana Department of Environmental Management issued a Final Water Discharge Permit last summer, a number of Illinois politicians (Daley, Durbin, Obama, etc.) protested quite loadly. So did the Chicago Tribune.
In response, BP promised to stick to their old discharge limits (which are already quite lax and haven’t been updated for about 15 years or so). However, the newer permit which allows even greater discharges remains legally in place. So all we have is BP’s promise to hang our hats on.
Currently, the Draft Air Permit, which would allow significant increases in air discharges of various pollutants, is under review. The IDEM has indicated that a Final Air Permit will be issued within the next two weeks.
By the way… these increase are due to the switch to crude oil from the tar sands of Canada.
Damn, there seems to be a bit of OT so I’m going to apologize ahead of time to Doc. Georgia just made modern basketball history. Because of the tornado their game with Kentucky was postponed until today. They beat Kentucky and then had to play MSU tonight and they won again. No one but me cares but goddamn, what an effort.
Kirk
I think you really hit a nerve with this subject. Nice post, thanks.
I doubt that most people realise how contaminated their water supply is.
Wow – thanks for that instructive (and depressing) answer. I hope IDEM grows a spine (whistling in the dark, I fear)
Kirk,
Can we expect a two year cycle of collapsed salmon runs, ad infinitum. What about next years? Was that generation also damaged by the water diversion?
Those dang Bull Dawgs are some pesky critters…
still catching up on comments-
question-if i remember right, don’t salmon spawn where they were born?
if so, what about the areas where they can’t anymore?
what happens to them, where do they go instead?
Been splitting my attention between the Lake and that event myself. I’m afraid that’s going to happen fairly often over the next couple of weeks.
It’s total group think put together with people who don’t want to dissent. It’s so unAmerican. Hope they wake up. Hope we wake up.
I fear you are correct – but there are some points of light. Beyond Pesticides (together with Californians for Pesticide Reform and Pesticide Action Network North America) had their National Pesticide Forum this year is in the Bay Area. The meeting brings togethe everyone from farm workers to professrs – great cross-fertilization. The moms really “get it” about drinking water contamination – I hope the news will spread widely.
They generally die out in the ocean somewhere, trying in vain to find another way to their “home” — and do so without spawning.
As Suzanne would say…Standing on a chair, clapping!
They make do. Every year during the salmon run they are stopped at the Folsom dam. They must turn around or go up the hatchery ladder. Either way they make babies and the babies come back.
and what peterr said, too.
Pectopah, there is a hatch – and thus a run – each year (well, potentiallly). As the judge only recently ordered decreased pumping, last year’s hatchlings were also at risk – thus potentially affecting the ‘09 run. :(
From what I know, we have to hope that CA has a few more good rainy seasons and snow packs, in addition to this one, -and that new laws, court rulings can keep the water flowing.
There are other fish problems in SF Bay. There is a big court battle going on to provide more water in delta for the San Franciso branch of the delta smelt (I think I got that right -am not sure but think it is the SF subpop of the longfin delta smelt that is at issue in several recent water rights cases)
I know so much about this topic that there’s no way I can distill it all.
And I’ve come on too late to catch up before the next thread comes on, but here’s one thing that I’ll add at present: the Big Shitpile is also very much related to declining fisheries, particularly salmon.
Housing developers have browbeaten local cities, counties, and agencies throughout the West to allow encroachments onto riverways, estuaries, creek habitat, and wetlands that have allowed silt (from grading and construction) to seep into waterways, which tear the gills and suffocate fish. The activities of taking large amounts of creek rock and river rocks (under laws grandfathered in under 1880s Mineral Laws), have ruined important nesting grounds.
From the interior of Montana, down through Idaho, Oregon, and all throughout Washington state, sprawl has silently, relentlessly impacted salmon habitat. And that’s entirely separate from chemical pollutants and dams.
Dayam – I’m so thrilled to see how much the Lake knows about water: y’all rock!
Thanks for all of your time, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience about the most precious fluid on our blue Earth.
It is also a cracinogen so don’t give your animals that water. NDMA the abbreviation for ttri halomethane and Acetis acid are both disenfectant byproduct. There probably was some sewage water in the mix as human carbon moxed with NDMA is a carcinogen. Don’t drink that water!!!
I think that the most important political offices are those of the local water boards and zoning boards.
There will be relentless pressure to allow private companies to take over local water systems, especially in smaller communities. Public ownership and operation of these systems is vital. Anything else is theft.
I’m off to make dinner, but will check in later – have fun with Thers. And blessings on your waters.
Thanks for the entire post, but especially this.
And the Columbia is over 1000 miles long, so you can imagine the splendor of these fish.
My father’s family came out West when the Columbia was still wild, and in my childhood my aunts would talk about watching the Indians fishnet along the Columbia. Years after they’d watched these activities, they still marveled at the majesty of watching those Yumatilla fisherfolk.
Pffffttt.. not Yumatilla… Umatilla. (Wincing a bit; hey, it’s gettin’ late.)
Look forward to more such posts (!!).
rotl – thanks for sharing your expertise! i’d love to learn from you. and shite – didn’t realize the evil 1872 mining act covered river gravel/rock as well. arrgh.
Someone once told me and I don’t know how true it is, that the fundamentalist christians believe that only god can completely destroy the world therefore they can do pretty much what they want regarding the environment. That would explain the complete disdain they show for any kind of restraint on industry in the pursuit of profit. What good is it to be the richest people on a desolate planet. Everything they touch turns to shit in their mad pursuit of maximum profit. We are fast approaching the point of no return. There are unintended consequences to everything.
kirk at 69 says-”FOr everyone: what affects water quality where you live?”
coal mines.
and they keep filling in flood plains, which increases flooding for people who can’t afford to move.
kirk says-” If you eat fish, where is the nearest body of water you’d feel safe eating fish from?”
lake snowden-albany, ohio….not a huge lake, but pretty and clean….built as a water resevoir…..the same lake that david wilhelm, obama campaigner, former dnl chairperson, former campaign director for clinton ’92, tried to swindle last year from public lands to private development for ’green’ houses….would have denied access to the public for camping and swimming and very limited access for fishing…he lost. na na na na nahhhhh nahhhhhhh.
i know you said no presidential race stuff, but when he campaigned for obama here, he didn’t exactly draw a crowd. and he tried to steal the best public fishing lake in se ohio for private mcmansions on the lake….and he’s from here…asshat.
best fishing anywhere, from boat or dock or shore…small motor limit…….they have bass tournaments there a lot…..the other day at the store, i overheard a couple of men talking about the upcoming fishing at lake snowden, they were wired……hocking college had a fishery there, too…….
i can’t count the times i sat on my deck, filet knife in hand, after a lovely day looking at herons, baiting my line, ….etc,……………if i caught it, and it was legal size, i ate it………..used to go there just for the sunsets, too.
Agree — speaking as someone who’s actually taken Fisheries courses in a university in the Pacific Northwest, and done some water quality studies in southern Puget Sound in the past, you do NOT want to eat farmed fish! For starters, the waters in the larger fiords where fish are farmed don’t slosh around enough for the fish to throughly removed all the waste with every tide. In the ocean, schools of fish swim in waters that are not as laden with bacteria.
IIRC, the Swedes or the Scots started the notion. (In fact, at one time I heard that a member of Jethro Tull was a fish farmer in some Scottish Fiord.)
Fish get their flavor and nutrients from swimming (for several years) in the ocean. Farmed fish simply don’t develop the same musculature, nor are they as healthy — they’re the fish equivilent of caged, penned up chickens.
Not healthy.
You have hit a nail on the head here.
When water is privatized, we’re screwed.
Briefly, this has happened in France, and a once-responsible public agency that had provided solid employment, a vital public service, and good retirements to its long time employees was used a collateral on other, bigger loans.
The upshot: once-useful public utility raided for its economic value to third parties, who then left it in ruins.
Think “the Enronization of water”. It will happen here if we don’t educate fellow citizens.
Fights over water will make oil wars look like a picnic.
Superb comment. Thx.
This is an absolutely brilliant comment about a topic that no one seems to really grasp… er… except the corporate types.
This is a very, VERY important point!!
beguiner, you should comment more often.
This is a very important point, and very few people understand why it is so critical.
what readerOfTeaLeaves said.
excellent point. and please do comment more often. i obviously could learn a lot from you. thanks!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/…..;cset=true
beguiner, is this the dumping you were talking about? i thought that got held up in court…….can’t find the link.
There are some with that point of view (I’m related to a few, which is how I know 88(((
However, as someone with strong environment/health interests, I’d point you toward one of the most promising developments in American politics in the past 30 years — the Creation Care movement.
I’ve worked on projects related to agriculture, and in that role, I’ve encountered some very thoughtful evangelicals.
As I understand it, after Katrina, many evangelicals around the US realized that the earth is God’s creation and it requires more, better care. So the terms they use are ‘stewardship‘ and ‘Creation Care‘. That’s not something you ever heard Jerry Falwell or Oral Roberts or Pat Robertson emphasize (!).
I think the past 30 years of being hammered, insulted, bullied, and demeaned as ‘less than moral’ has really taken a toll on many of us Americans, and I count myself in the group that finds the “Moral Majority” authoritarian, politicized religion deeply offensive, insulting, and hypocritical, so I can sympathize with where you’re probably coming from.
Nevertheless, the good news (at least, from my perspective) is that evidently many evangelicals realize that the corporatist, cynical, Bush-Rove-Cheney GOP sold them a bogus bill of shite. They’re no longer simply rolling over for the Dow Chemical, ExxonMobil, and Wall Street financed GOP. That doesn’t mean they’re going to become ‘lefties’ or get on board with the Democratic Party, but it does mean that they’re also tired of being harrangued by partisan ideologues, and not willing to walk in lockstep into their megachurches, ballots in hand. They are putting more energy into addressing environmental issues, and they care about social justice.
If you are interested, I’d point you to two excellent resources:
1. Jim Wallis has just published a book called “The Great Awakening”, and it’s well worth a read. He writes about younger evangelicals fed up with partisan politics, concerned about global warming, and also very concerned about social justice. (This is a critical point, because social justice and environmental degradation are twins; where you find one, you find its Evil Twin. So the fact that young evangelicals see the linkages between these two issues is very important.) I have encountered some of these younger evangelicals, and Wallis’s writing strikes true with my own, more limited, observations.
2. Jim Wallis’s website is ‘beliefnet.com’, and it includes links to yoga, ‘New Thought’, and Astrology, so they cast a pretty broad net. They’re not a bunch of “Moral Majority” authoritarians.
I leave this long comment, because I absolutely understand the scope of the environmental problems that we face. I’ve spent countless hours of my life in policy meetings with ’stakeholders’, reading long reports, serving in policy roles, and then watching gutless electeds cave in to polluters, privatizers, and wannabe Wall Streeters. In fact, FWIW, I’ve been in meetings where armed law enforcement officers had to be present and obvious because the hostility over environmental regulations got so emotional. But the ‘left’ cannot solve these problems alone; these problems are simply too big.
I’ve seen the environmental regs gutted Up Close and Personal, so to speak. And I don’t believe that environmental problems will ever be solved until and unless we can work with a wide range of people: tribes, evangelicals, and those who are building new, ‘green’ business models. The business people are key players, and some evangelicals would love to make money as ‘green’ businesses. Some of them have really started to figure out that the GOP has absolutely nothing to offer them spiritually, economically, politically, or socially.
The Moral Majority is now finding itself about as popular as Karl Rove. Some still hold to that outdated model, but many are seeking new solutions, IMHO, we really need to find a way to work WITH those among them who are seeking new solutions, and who realize that pollution causes disease. And that social injustice and corporate irresponsibility contribute to a system that damages the God’s Creation.
If we can figure out how to work with them, things could change for the better.
After all, consider the alternative.
Thank you. I love this comment.
Boy, you have no idea how much I appreciate that ;-))
I was just kicking myself for going on at such length.
Thx.
And thx, as ever, to Kirk and the wonderful FDL crew!
Another factor in the decline of the Pacific salmon stocks is the change in ocean conditions. Probably as a result of global warming, over the last few years, there has been a great reduction in the amount of upwelling, where nutrient rich deep waters come up, usually in the spring, and provide feed for krill. Three or four years ago, the absence of krill resulted in a dramatic die off of young shore birds in the San Francisco area. We saw it further north as well. While older salmon feed on krill, there are other sources of food for them, suchas small fish. For young salmon, however, their options are more limited.
Salmon are threatened on so many fronts, and yet they’ve survived. Now however, we’re getting into perfect storm territory, and it’s almost impossible to muster the political will to confront the problems that have to be solved.
The various fishing interests, who all have a stake in the survival of salmon, have for years, under federal mandate, cooperated by lowering catches, closing seasons, limiting gear and, as lobbying interests, agitating for change in water policies. They’ve done stream restoration operated hatcheries and assisted in research. We won’t get a season this year, and that’s sad. But what’s sadder, is that there aren’t any salmon. And that they aren’t the only fish out there affected. And that the fate of a river or ocean full of fish hinges on the narrow short sighted political interests of an administration blind to the concept of consequence.
Absolutely great points.
Also, part of the problem:
stems from the fact that all bodies of water flow through different jurisdictions. One of the most difficult facets of water protection are the problems involved in getting the 1/4 mile of a river that flows through a city under the same level of regulation as the next 4 miles that flow through the county jurisdiction, and then the next 2 miles through state jurisdiction, then 12 miles through Federal/US Forest Service property… all the different levels of government mean one huge long line of finger pointing at the next guy for causing the problem.
And the timelines of government policies, then court battles, then ’studies’ that either don’t get funded, or take 2 years to complete, then another 2 years through the policy process… it’s just a glacial timeline.
It’s an incredibly frustrating, futile process.
Meanwhile, while all that b.s. happens, the local cheapo loggers, or cheapo oil change outfits, are illegally logging or dumping chemicals into the water, and there’s not enough funding to track them down and prosecute them.
If they do it in the spring, or during spawning season in fall… all the good acts on the part of the whole fishing industry can’t counteract illegal dumping, plus terrible, gutless local land use regulations.
I put my faith in Google Earth and Social Networks to find ways to better develop more timely, shared information so that resources are protected much more promptly. The current system is completely and utterly broken.
rotl and redtankhouse, thank you both for your thoughful and detailed comments – I hope the Lake and I have the pleasure of learning from both of you often.
again, thanks.
I’d be delighted to hear from both of you: kirkmurphy gmail com
;-)))
thanks for that comment. I hope something comes of it. I hope that fundamentalist Christians who are not brain washed by the End Time cultists and heretics can see that they have been duped, and the reasonable and open minded among them can move away from the the corporate GOP machine. They won’t get any partisan tirades from me, just thanks and willingness to discuss real issues.
Developers over the aquifer. Fertilizers, pesticides. Water draining from streets and roads to creeks. Runoff during storms.
Yeah, I think feeling duped is a bad sensation, and most of us have experienced it at some point. All the more reason to move forward, and leave the Karl Roves and Jerry Falwells behind.
The thing that strikes me about the evangelicals that I know is that they do try to live their beliefs, and those beliefs often allow them to act with tremendous courage.
Like you, I have no time or patience for the End Times contingent.
But not all evangelicals buy into that. Some realize that may it is smart to take care of the earth, because our own health depends on it.
That’s the encouraging news from my tiny corner of the world.
This is exactly the area I’m starting to work in. I’ve been thinking along the same lines myself. I’ve started with environmental activism (working on shutting down the Trojan nuclear power plant), then came to political action to help with the environment, then political activism from urgent insanity in government with environmental laws getting rolled back and details like habeas corpus gone missing.
I am now also starting to work with individuals and lead workshops on using spiritual power for guidance and sustenance in healing our planet.
I’d love to talk with you about this more. Is there a way to get in touch with you?
there was a show on not too long ago, think it was on bill moyers, where a group of esteemed evangelicals and scientists on the front lines of global warming spent i think a week together going to places that have been affected by global warming……an island in alaska where ice is melting, affecting their hunting, and erosion of their island…….other sites that are now exposed due to melt….was close, primitive quarters for them, so, they got to know each other….was revealing for the evangelicals and the scientists……they plan to do more meetings of the ’minds’ in the future. a few eyes and minds were opened on this trip according to the participants.
another thing, there are many evangelical baptist churches that are going ’green’…….has been happening for a few years now. their reasoning? god created the earth, so, we should be stewards of what god created…….they stepped ahead of their convention and just did it. i forget name of the pastor that started it, sorry.
http://www.citizen.org/cmep/Wa…..fm?ID=8631
this is about nestle bottling michigan’s water supply
http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/image/viz_sce1.html
this is the epa’s great lakes site, included monitoring info, and pictures. lots of info here. i had it bookmarked on photos, but you can maneuver throughout the menu to get what you want.
dmac, you are amazing.
Well, one piece of (very personal) advice… the better you can listen to what some of these evangelicals are starting to say, the more you’ll learn, and the more productive you can be in working together. Because there are some really good, courageous souls among them who have tremendous knowledge — and a wealth of experience in their specific fields of expertise.
I’m emailing Kirk, so why don’t you email him as well, and then he can forward our email addresses to one another. (Pardon me for not posting mine publicly, but honestly… like probably everyone here, I have more email than I can really stand to think about.)
wow, reader of tea leaves, thanks! but NO, YOU are amazing, no you, no you!
i was looking for a link to the redacted at&t gov papers that were taken back from a fisa court case for noonan on the next thread, and i found those two links…….
i have more water links, but can’t find them yet…not very organized in some ways, it’s a curse……..oh well, those will do.
one of my best friends is a geohydrologist for the epa, she tests well sites and other things-like laying out the mapping/well requirements and restrictions when a power plant or industry is going in….it’s way more involved than i thought……..i’ve learned a lot from her.
i’m glad the involvement of the churches was brought up, because when i first heard about it, i was skeptical, and i have to admit, a little afraid for what could come from it, the damage that could be done, then i heard enough to believe that the concern and level of involvement is genuine, and the approaches they are using are the kind that blend with activists….that we are stewards of the earth, music to my ears when i heard the pastor say that…..and he said just get out and do it…….so, it is quite an amazing thing that is happening.
he didn’t have an iota of ’nutcase’ to him, and the parishioners i’ve seen interviewed weren’t nutty either.
not once was politics mentioned. not in the bill moyers’ show either. a few of them were wrapped a little tightly, but seemed open to what the scientists were trying to say.
dmac and greenwarrior, here is a good link in case you are interested: http://www.kcrw.com/news/progr…..ening_to_t
Show title: What’s Happening to the Religious Right?
This is an episode from “To the Point”, with host Warren Olney and several guests, including Jim Wallis.
greenwarrior — put this is your Information Arsenal: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02…..ref=slogin
Also this: http://www.beliefnet.com/story…..893_1.html
For a little different perspective, start here and then follow lots of links: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme…..tives_des/
Yes, I think people are open to new information. But it’s also my sense that the information has to be very well sourced, and very credible, and explained clearly.
But I figure that’s a good thing ;-))
With respect to that whole, messy problem of links that you can’t locate… don’t know which browser you use, but if you have not recently checked the HELP item on your browser menu, this might be a good time ;-))
It’ll tell you how to create Bookmark Folders, if you don’t already do that… I have folders three deep, and find it helps me a lot to organize my links that way.
Hi wesgpc, the way the climate works into the equation is the forcast of increasing drought as the climate warms. Then we have farmers trying to farm in what is increasingly a desert. So the water managers must make decisions as to who gets the water. Who wins? I think the fish will lose. Unless we have a major re-arming of the epa (formerly the EPA).
The problem is capitalism, which makes me sound like a commie (I’m not) but capitalism creates a conflict between individual interest and collective good. Capitalism emphasizes individualism. If someone makes a buck by despoiling the landscape, he gets yachts and multiple mansions and we get garbage in public places. The insanity is that these so-called entrepreneurs live on the planet just like the rest of us. They need air to breathe and water to drink.
The first order of business is replacing representative democracy with electronic democracy. It will be done on the Internet, though I have no idea how. The second order of businss is using technology to solve problems. Waterless toilets rather than sewer systems; desalinating water which turns deserts green and perhaps offsets melting glaciers; non petroleum energy sources-the list is almost endless. First we must wrest control of things from the hands of those who see no further than their bank accounts. Lots of people claim to want change, but they don’t follow that desire to its logical conclusion.
Well, FWIW, I’ve never met a developer who didn’t claim to be ‘an environmentalist’, but it’s human nature to be blind to our own faults, isn’t it?
I’m personally more aligned with what I might call ‘natural capitalism’, or ‘the ecology of commerce’. For more, see Paul Hawkins, who writes sanely about biz within a social context. (His titles include ‘The Ecology of Commerce’, and he’s been talking about sustainable economics for almost 25 years.)
Currently, the US is stuck beneath the weight of globalized crony, or ‘managerial’ capitalism. The managers and ’shareholders’ get all the money; the rest of us are fodder. Clearly, this isn’t working all that well for millions of people.
Unfortunately, our institutions are designed to enable and support crony capitalism, which is a close cousin to managerial capitalism. The best thing that I’ve ever encountered on the topic is Howie Klein’s “Who’s Going to Save Capitalism This Time?” It was one of his earliest posts at Down With Tyranny.
Basically, what we’ve had since 1980, getting worse each year, has been a type of capitalism that came out of the Univ of Chicago, and promoted ‘market fundamentalism.’ It uses the ‘free market’ ideology from 1776 (yes, Adam Smith was actually writing in the 1700s!) to excuse the predatory, socially irresponsible corporate activities that create monsters like Enron, Global Crossing, and Tyco.
“Market fundamentalists” don’t believe in any kind of regulation, and scorn ‘government interference’ because ‘the market is always right’. That may have been true in a village in 1776; doesn’t translate to a global economy.
I take my economic philosophy from biology. In my view, we currently have economic parasites. Parasites have a role, but they are only useful when they are ‘regulated’ by other forces within their environment. Once they get to run the show, they consume the host that’s fed them. Then they die very quickly.
That’s my interpretation of what’s going on at present: parasitic hedge funds and stock analysts who don’t produce anything other than ‘information’ feeding off the hard work of many Americans, and others around the globe. Parasite got greedy; ate up host. Now what?
And when we read things like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..03207.html
Well… you just kind of want to put your head in your hands and sob.
Roberts probably has good intentions, but clearly no clue about salmon.
So much for expecting the US Supreme Court justices to insist on economically or socially responsible behavior. Unless, of course, you believe that allowing a man with a history of alcoholism to captain an oil tanker in the winds of Valdez strait, during the spring (hatching season) in Prince William Sound, which only happens to be one of the world’s most valuable fisheries resources is ‘responsible’.
So capitalism doesn’t have to be predatory or irresponsible.
But that’s the form of capitalism that we now have to fix.
Which is why the Blue America movement is so critical. (And not necessarily limited to ‘Democrats’. Not by a long shot.)
rotl-thanks for the links.
i think i may have seen a little about the eco-evangelism on the pbs show religion and ethics (is that the name?) is an interesting show.
and i do bookmark folders, only thing is, i start out general, then do more specific, so, they are scattered…..and i started out using a different browser, so those are still there……and when i first started doing computers again, i just hit ’mark’ and a lot of stuff is still in the bookmarks bar and not in a folder……..oh well……..
but the main problem is, that i’ve sometimes neglected to ’re-title’ things when i save them, so i can’t tell what the heck they are by the web address……so, i think the ones i’m looking for are in that group.
like i said, not too organized in some ways.
and i will go to the help menu and see if it has tips on how to move everything to the right folder!
thanks
take care
You betcha… man, Jane’s gonna ban me soon if I keep writing this much… 8-0
My suggestion: if you have a DVD player, or iTunes, on your computer, put in a movie or good music and then take an hour or so to go through some/all of your old bookmarks and regroup.
You should be able to pull some of these folders ‘inside’ others, to make more logical subfolder structures.
I did this myself for about an hour last week, b/c I just had too much stuff… felt good to have more order again, so I hope you have a good time ‘cleaning out’ your bookmarks file.
I just started reading ‘The Pirate’s Dilemma: How Youth Culture Is Reinventing Capitalism‘ It argues that ‘pirates’ tend to be the economic innovators, and it covers open source, punk culture’s role in innovations, and sounds like something you might find interesting.
I don’t agree with all of it, but then I don’t agree with everything at beliefnet.com, either ;-))
But I agree with BOTH of them more than I agree with our Supreme Court Justice’s views on Exxon Valdez! Come to think of it, let’s all hope Justice Roberts reads the book… OTOH, it might be too alarming for him ;-)
Take care…
oh, no, no ’banning of you’!
thanks, yes, it would be nice for it to be organized, will feel good. always feels good to have one more easy to use, user friendly corner in my life.
i quit saving some things just because i didn’t want it to get too unwieldy (sp?)…….and went hunting for that source and couldn’t find it, cuz i didn’t save it…..darn.
yeah, i don’t know how to do the folder-in-the-folder for safari, but have a friend who knows all about it if the help section doesn’t cover it.
and your parasites analogy was dead-on………
Hey thanks… am I hanging out here like some benthic bottom feeder at the bottom of a thread, or what…?
Yeah, I always feel much calmer when organized.
And putting in a DVD makes me feel like ‘getting organized’ is fun; not a chore at all. Just time to reflect and regroup. Very energizing.
Enjoy!
Capitalism cannot regulate a rapidly evolving technological societies. The conflict between individual and group gets too extreme. We make technological mistakes (ie the internal combustion engine) but we cannot correct them immediately because too many individual interests (jobs-auto and petroleum workers, investments in plants and machinery) are involved.
Take the recent flap over HD television formats. This time Sony won, but the waste of the process should be evident to the most rabid Libertarian. Since we are recommending reading material, click on my name, go to my site and let me know what you think of my theory of human behavior.
Well… that’s a whole other thread, getting very far away from the topic of ’salmon’ as indicator species. Yes, we make mistakes; so far, capitalism doesn’t seem to be able to respond as quickly as many of us would like.
But your topics of pscyhology are important, yet (unfortunately) too far into another topic than I have time for at present 8(
Capitalism doesn’t have to be based on making cars, obviously. It can be adapted to many things. But at bottom, when we don’t PRICE things correctly, we don’t act on good information – no matter about whether our psychology is good, bad, or vicious.
Take a salmon at the grocery store fish counter: you’re paying for the store, the clerk, the middleman, and the fisherman (at least, as far as I can think at the moment). Sells for between $8 – $20 per pound.
Now, take that very same fish and say that some sports fisherman caught it up in Montana. In that case, he ‘thinks’ that he just caught the fish, but the price would include fishing license (some portion of which is supposed to help fund park rangers and fisheries biologists), gas, hotel, meals, sports equipment (rod, reel, etc), vehicle mileage costs, etc… Well, I saw someone do an interesting cost analysis showing that THAT fish actually generated about $400 for the regional economy (assuming the fisherman was from out of state, and not including air fare).
That fish is about $200/pound.
Now, psychology aside, how do you PRICE things so that people actually pay for what they use and what the full impacts of the use?
Arguably, both salmon are seriously ‘underpriced’.
Neither includes the cost of water treatment.
Neither includes the cost of habitat conservation.
Neither includes the cost of fisheries biologists…
I could go on and on…
Psychology aside, if the cheapo loggers, the methamphetamine cookers, and the housing developers actually had to pay the REAL prices of their impacts, they’d have to find better, more sustainable ways to do business. No matter what their personal psychology.
Until things are priced properly, we’ll have fish kills.
The fish are telling us ‘you underpriced me. You wanted me for free, you wanted me on someone else’s dime. You wanted cheap electricity, profits for Enron, fancy cars, and you didn’t want to pay for more habitat’.
Psychology aside, what parasites do is take advantage of opportunities.
We’ve created an economic model that is tailor-made for parasites.
Fish die-offs are a symptom of that failed economic model.
rotl–you’re not the usual use of the phrase bottom feeder, funny…….thanks for 192
one of my friends was drinking bottled water from fiji—–i said, how in the heck can a bottle of water from fiji be $1?????? that somebody somewhere was paying for it. even with trade agreements, a dollar?
threw me for a loop.
was going to ask my dad about that one……to explain it to me.
oh, and i had to agree, the water was good.
take care
and ekunin-went to your site, pretty cool.
I cannot how you can divorce human psychology from anything including dying salmon runs. To the question “Are we crazy?” My answer is “yes”
harry shearer just reported on the harm of nitrogen on louisiana’s waters…….from ethanol production. crops used for corn-based ethanol…..flows down-river….a dead zone the size of new jersey……
archer daniels midland was mentioned.
report from the academy of sciences, researchers from a few colleges, didn’t get them written down.
sorry no links, just heard it, and i know this thread will be no comment soon.
sorry, nitrogen from fertilizers, from run-off
and ekunin–from past experience and from this thread, i don’t think reader of tea leaves separates anything, due to her/his insightful view and insatiable appetite for information……….
like you.
i think he/she meant that they didn’t have time right then to dig. that’s how i took it.
Thanks dmac; I’ll take that as a compliment.
Correct that I’m interested in psych, believe it extremely important, but out of time for it today… (rats!)