(The House has adjourned and Boehner has threatened to "shut down the House" until they take up the Senate Intel bill. The GOP really is going to the mat to get Dick Cheney and the telecom crooks immunity. If you want to fight against the Bush Dogs trying to help them do it, you can do so here -- jh)
There is another potential FISA deal floating out today:
...Instead of blanket immunity, the tentative proposal would give the federal courts special authorization to hear classified evidence and decide whether the phone companies should be held liable. House Democrats have been working out the details of their proposal in the last few days, officials said, and expect to take it to the House floor for a vote on Thursday....
It would impose tougher restrictions on National Security Agency eavesdropping than the Senate version does by requiring court approval before the agency's wiretapping procedures, instead of approval after the fact. It would also reject retroactive immunity for the phone carriers.
Under the proposal, the courts would be given authority to hear classified evidence in the civil suits -- perhaps on an "ex parte" basis, with only one side in attendance -- to determine whether the companies are immune from liability. Officials said the proposal would most likely give that authority to a federal district court, but it is possible that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court in Washington could be given that authority instead....
The little bit of information that we know about the illegal domestic spying actions of the NSA and other agencies under Bush Administration direction comes from whistleblowers who were not content to sit by and watch them repeatedly break the law and conceal that action from Congress. Via Matt Browner-Hamlin:
Xeni Jardin of Boing Boing interviews AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein and the Electronic Frontier Foundation’s Cindy Cohn. In the interview, Klein mentions that only Chris Dodd has presented his story before Congress, and according to Klein, “[Dodd] got run over by his own party leadership who seems determined to do the work of the NSA and pass immunity for the phone companies.”
It’s remarkable how angry and cynical Klein is in this interview. When I interviewed him last fall for the Dodd campaign, he was soft-spoken and even-keeled. In this interview, it’s clear that Klein is disillusioned at the political process and the Democrats who have done absolutely nothing with his case of blatantly illegal actions by the NSA and AT&T. Honestly, I can understand his outrage and it’s a testament to his patriotism. It is truly shameful that his story has not become a test case for rolling back the executive powers seized by the Bush administration and using this massive violation of the 4th amendment of almost every American as grounds for impeachment.
More on the interview from Wired. And thanks to Boing Boing for doing the interview with Klein. Matt has some further thoughts on the WSJ article from yesterday.
As I said yesterday, please contact your Senators and Representatives and telling them that they must reject telecom immunity and actively work to uphold the rule of law and protect the Fourth Amendment. Call your Senators and Representative today -- continued pressure on this is essential. E-mail them a copy of this interview. Write a letter to the editor to your hometown newspaper about these issues.
Stand up and be heard. And make sure it isn't just the NSA that's listening...
UPDATE: EFF has issued a statement on the House bill proposal:
"We applaud the House leadership for taking a courageous stand against the president and refusing to grant amnesty to lawbreaking telecoms. The House bill would represent a true compromise on the amnesty issue: customers whose privacy was violated would get their day in court, while the companies would be allowed to defend themselves despite the Administration's broad demands for secrecy," said EFF Senior Staff Attorney Kevin Bankston. "Immunity proponents have been claiming on the Hill for months that these companies had a good faith belief that the NSA program was legal. Under this bill, the companies could do what they should have been able to do all along: tell that story to a judge."
There is more information at the link as well on particular segments.
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Christy!
Actually, I find it kind of amazing that the House hasn’t rubber-stamped the Senate version yet.
Next thing you know, a Democrat will be caught up in a sex scandal…
Christy, would like to know if you consider this an acceptable compromise if you are comfortable commenting at this time
AP - Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday she disagrees with Geraldine Ferraro, one of her fundraisers and the 1984 vice presidential candidate, for suggesting that Barack Obama only achieved his status in the presidential race because he’s black. In a brief interview with The Associated Press, Clinton was questioned about Ferraro’s remarks.
I am part of the Democratic base. And I believe strongly that Spitzer should go.
AP - With pressure mounting to resign Tuesday over a call-girl scandal, Gov. Eliot Spitzer found himself with few friends and lots of powerful enemies, many of whom regard him as a sanctimonious bully who got what was coming to him. Republicans began talking impeachment, and few if any fellow Democrats were willing to defend him.
the letter conyers and leahy sent out yesterday was moronic:
“Join our team to fix FISA”
talk about republican frames! fisa doesn’t need fixing - it’s the administration policies (and congress’ rubber stamping) that need fixing.
how can the two chairs of the house and senate judiciary committees be so stupid?
We are having Swiss steak with steamed rice tonight. I wonder if the authorities are aware of that.
I dare the Federal Government to spy on me.
this is why i do not believe the house or senate leadership when they say they are fighting on our side. if that were the case, we’d have had a ton of hearings - investigative hearings, not these grandstanding “hearings” where the congressmembers try to get in their sound bite and rarely seem to care about getting at the truth of the matter.
They are now! ;)
You know those “friends” who always seem to show up around dinner time? Maybe they’re not really “friends.” *g*
quiet today?
From the Hamlin article Christy links to:
So Clinton can both get the remarks out there and then take the high road about having them out there. It’s down right Rovian.
And we do talk politics. And we are registered progressives. ;0)
Exactly.
Oh I hope so. Things can get a bit boring in southwestern Okla. As perhaps you can imagine. ;0)
Same problem occasionally here in central Oklahoma. ;)
Judy Biggert is my representative. She is in IL Congressional District 13. I sent her this fax:
Rep. Biggert,
Please join newly elected Rep. Foster (D IL, CD14) in opposing illegal wiretapping and retro-active immunity for telecoms that participated in the illegal wiretapping. Please join Rep. Foster in supporting the rule of law and upholding the Constituition.
Just a subtle, little hit about what is happening with tides changing and the like….
The history of what happens to whistleblowers after they whistle is not generally good. I respect and greatly admire whistleblowers. I’m not sure I am in possession of that kind of courage. I would hope I would be if the situation ever confronted me.
I don’t imagine that you sit around hoping for tornadoes to liven things up.
I did not know that you were an Oklahoman.
Been here 26 years next month.
OK
OT-
Caffrey on CNN, reading a letter:
“Sending Dick Cheney to negotiate for lower oil prices is like sending Elliot Spitzer to close down a brothel”
All right!
OT Review of Donita Sparks & Stellar Moments “Transmiticate” at the end of today’s Fresh Air show on National Public Radio (NPR).
bigbrother!
O/T Ferraro defends her remarks:
Accck dig up Ferraro, dig up!!!
Okay back on topic, contacted reps as instructed *g*
Christy, is the poll for whom shall be targeted over yet? I was just over at Glenn’s site and the monies are at $27,000 and still climbing, maybe all six critters could be targeted now…! 8-)
Burn the Constitution!
Oh, a bit inflammatory, but that is what a vote for immunity will do. Our elected officials can either vote for our civil liberties or vote against them and the Constitution. If they vote for telecom immunity, the next vote should be to burn the Constitution. We clearly won’t be using it anymore, and the terrorists will have won.
Ferraro…STFU
It’s not over yet — so please everyone go and vote.
(Sorry, have been offline most of the day — it was The Peanut’s kindergarten evaluation day. We are worn out…)
Nice.
What if some one in the Obama campaign said something as inflammatory? they would be out by now.
Lahoma and I support Obama. You perhaps know that already. Hope you are have a great afternoon, my friend. Lahoma and read your comments. ;0)
I suppose a lot of people will think that this is a decent compromise. It is not. It is a craptastic pile of dung, Let’s see here, under this “compromise” the Bush Administration is going to appear ex-parte to selected judges in order to present secret/classified evidence that will then be sealed. The citizen plaintiffs and their attorneys never see, hear or know what was the basis given, and have no opportunity to cross-examine and test the veracity of the evidence. Then everything is sealed up. What is the standard on review? Manifest error/abuse of discretion? Want to bet that it is? Only a few judges will be able to be cleared to hear these ex-parte presentations; I assume that since the Administration controls security clearances, they will be able to appoint only Silbermans for the job. This all still denies plaintiffs effective due process. This is a bad idea.
There will be some empty promises about increasing production. Prices will stay high for the US, however, because nothing’s going to stop the fall of the dollar until the Bush Administration is just a bad memory. Mission Accomplished Again!
like the whole ‘monster’ comment?
You would think the Congressional boneheads would take one look at the Spitzer situation and wake the fork up.
So…are banks checking out congressional personal bank accounts, turning it over to the IRS….then using it as an excuse (public servant corruption) to spy on them…so that their personal activities can be revealed whenever they go against the powers that be.
Wake up!!!
(Sorry, have been offline most of the day — it was The Peanut’s kindergarten evaluation day. We are worn out…)
Well, some things DO take precedence…
*g*
Gawd…wait until Junior High!! *g*
I’m getting some clarification about the ex parte aspect that Matt mentions — what I’m told is that it is more along the lines of the CIPA review that any circuit judge could do, not just the FISA court — so, for example, the judges overseeing the EFF suit would review the material to determine relevance and how to proceed just as they would do in a CIPA hearing/procedure, and then issue a ruling detailing their decision where appropriate. Am trying to get a copy of the actual wording to see for myself, but haven’t gotten it yet…
Geraldine Ferraro not only disgusts me, she breaks my heart (and there sure is lots of that type of heart-breaking going around this season, eh?) –
I remember with utter clarity the day she became the Vice Presidential nominee. How could I not? My best friend and I wept tears of joy in the realization that such a thing — a woman on the ticket — was finally possible. This in spite of the fact that sexism was rampant and unchallenged in lots of areas of our lives.
I remember the day I took the Market St.-Frankford Elevated train to its Upper Darby terminus, and while exiting the station, had the good fortune to meet Geraldine Ferraro eager to meet commuters.
I remember the night I went to the Upper Darby High School football field to sit on cold bleachers in very cold weather to hear her speak. It was a glorious moment.
And now she makes me ill.
This business of trying to carve up progressives into camps who see EITHER racism OR sexism as being “worse” than the other form of “social disease” is flat-out evil, IMO.
Racism and sexism go hand-in-hand. Always has, always will. Race baiting for the sake of helping a woman in her bid for the presidency is (to borrow a phrase from Vietnam-era activism) “like fucking for virginity.”
Excuse my language, but I’m pissed.
Why thank you kiddo and lahoma, I’m having a beautiful afternoon and yourselves?
Yeah, I hear the teen years pretty much suck rocks. *g*
Isn’t the “immunity” for “any” alleged companies that the government has asked to assist them?
Glenn has it in pdf format in one of the updates and he seems to like it…!
What will a possible McCain administration seek in the way of immunity?
from glenn, here is the proposed bill (pdf)
1,783 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hardin Smith:
Fine post and efforts on the FISA legislation are tremendously important BUT the administration is clearin’ the decks for an assault on Iran with the resignation of Admiral Fallon. Fallon’s resignation (forced)in all likelihood means the decision has been made for a pre-emption against Iran leavin’ no one in the immediate command structure to oppose the move.
The scorched earth strategy of destroyin’ institutional checks on executive power and eliminating options for future administrations in foreign policy is escalating…here we have this incredible mess of Gov. Spitzer, the FISA bill and the fascists shuttin’ down business in the House of Representatives, the chair of the Federal Reserve extendin’ $200 BILLION in government bailout of securities speculators and we jest sigh when a senior military officer (a right wing true believer too) resigns in the face of insane action against another sovereign nation that hasn’t attacked us!!
Sorry Christy but all the phone calls on FISA will be inconsequential if we attack Iran in the meantime…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…AND TELL ME AGAIN WHY WE CAN’T IMPEACH THESE BASTARDS!!
I have a shotgun, loaded with rock salt, on hand at all times…! 8-)
understandable that you’re a wee bit vexed.
i’m going to have to use that phrase, it is awesome and jaw dropping at the same time *g*
Absolutely agreed, bmaz! Especially since they’ve already stacked the judicial decks with the disgusting nominees they foisted on the country during the three-branch reign of GOP control of the works of government.
(And, it’s good to see you! Hope all is well with you and yours.)
your very own commenter is hosting it for glenn! see my #50
Excellent — thanks!
Was NSA looking in on you and Peanuts? McConnell may have her listed as do not fly.
I’m for keeping FISA as is. Letting the courts decide is was that so why change it back to what it/was (exception the federal Bush courts…not)
Thank you for keeping the FDL focus on this high priority.
If we lose this we just doubled down on another losing bet that the Dem leadershipp has complicity in and the days of Democracy are numbered.
We have had a very good day. Lahoma is hinting I might be hungry. She just sent me an email from upstairs. The implication (email) is of course, on this issue (hungry?), an interrogative. Like in, when will supper be ready!?
You’re a peach, selise! *g*
Not exactly. Let’s just say it’s - interesting.
Heaven help us:
In a speech to religious broadcasters sprinkled with references to faith and occasionally interrupted by shouts of “amen” from the audience, Bush delivered a mostly upbeat assessment of a troop buildup he ordered in early 2007.
-G
It is so ironic to see how well the ‘conservatives’ have all but killed off privacy.
Hmmm…the toobz or my pooter (comments especially) were wacko for me all day, had to hard refresh constantly and all wickywacky…but now they are fine..tiz a puzzlement..oh, and my bookmarks all disappeared…again….(thanks Elliott for your help BTW!!)
FYI, the folks at EFF have issued a statement about the proposed House legislation as well. I linked it above in an update, but here’s the link.
Howie’s got a Kos diary up on our worst Bush Dog poll. Recommendations from Kossacks always help.
Oh I am so with you! I remember my mother crying but I was skeptical. I, too, went to see her campaign in Maryland (I was in my early 20s).
I keep thinking I should be so happy with my choice but the Clintons have made me so angry! If need be I will vote for her in November but she sure has sucked the joy out of the whole thing.
Before I forget –
Many thanks to our dear ReddHedd (sorry Christy, but your nick holds a fond place in this red-head’s heart still) and to Jane and the whole Lake for the email reminder for organized activism in my inbox today –
a call for us to put in our two cents on this telecom immunity nonsense as loudly as possible.
You Firepup leaders make it EASY AS PIE for us to carry out our constitutional duties as patriotic citizens.
Thank you!!!
Amen.
-G
Well i would sure like to see the details; the devil is always there. I am here to tell you that despite all the lofty “every presumption runs to the plaintiff” rhetoric; Federal judges bend over backwards and otherwise contort themselves in unimaginable ways to dismiss civil right cases on 12(b)(6) and other pre-responsive pleading defense dismissal motions for the Federal government. Take a look at Bates’ decision and order on the Plame civil suit for just one example. Knowing that the other side never will see the basis just makes it that much easier. Ask anybody who has done substantial federal civil rights litigation and they will confirm what I am saying.
Did you see Tom Tomorrow’s recent toon…
http://www.salon.com/comics/to.....index.html
It seemed the minute one of the kids became HS freshman….. someone hit the fast forward button and held it down until poof we were ordering graduation announcements.
Jeebus, Norske — I can’t solve every problem at once. I had to get my wee girlie enrolled for kindergarten today. Let a momma come home and catch her breath, would ya? *g*
Yeah, well you rock! I know I look forward to the daily kiddo and lahoma menu (and I’m a raw foodist vegan) but it gives me great ideas for the hubby *g*
Exactly
Interesting:
“Rather than granting immunity, the bill would respond to the phone companies’ complaints that they cannot defend themselves by clarifying that they can present evidence about the wiretapping to the court under appropriate security procedures, even when the Executive Branch claims that such evidence is barred by the state secrets privilege.”
Progress? Or, what’s the catch? Or, is there a catch…seems like they always find one….
Standing on chair applauding racausly!
Thanks for the informed opine and wading through all of this. Like practicing attorneys have nuttin betta ta do..as Jimmie Durante might have commented.
Also for all time spent at Emptywheels where a very erudite discussion has been taking place on FISA-Telecom immunity-unconstitutional dataminig between you and other attorneys and techies.
Yep — which is why I asked for more clarification from my sources on this when I got home today. Hopefully, I get something more substantial than a quickie description. And I’ll take a peek at the PDF selise linked as I get time this evening. Whew…what a day!
Oh man. Too bad Tom Tomorrow wasn’t Doug Feith’s biographer.
-G
The catch will be in the signing statement and will go unchallenged by Reid and Pelosi.
Honestly, my friend’s granddaughter was enrolled in Kindegarten this last year…they went through the ringer…is she mature enough…is she this, is she that…Geez, they are little kids…she got enrolled, is very smart but she’s “too playful” or some such nonsense…
My first day of Kindergarten, the teacher sent me to the back of the room and called me “chatterbox”….I guess she was right…now I have a complex….*g*
just skimming the bill now… looks like there is no minimization oversight - the fisc gets to review procedures only?
one really good thing is that glenn was able to get a copy of the actual text of the proposed bill so that we can all read it for ourselves BEFORE the house takes action on it.
After my folks had died, I found all my old report cards. Many of my early teachers at some point during the year included the note: “[dakine] is smart but he needs to learn to not talk so much.
I didn’t always pay attention to those teachers.
Spying is now commonly used against bush poilitical oppenents. Spitzer messed with the money so a warning after the fact …a shot across the Dem bow to keep them in line…more than bad press…fear …fear…fear. So over the fascist top…Musollini, Hitler and Stalin territory.
WAKE UP AND STRUGGLE
done.
What I was told was that it wasn’t just FISC that gets oversight on the court review, that it would be any court with jurisdiction over any case that touches on this — like the civil cases going forward that with ACLU/EFF as lead counsel, etc. But I haven’t had a chance to review the bill to know if that’s the section you are reading or if it is another one. I do know that EFF’s review of the bill was fairly favorable based on what I’ve seen from them thus far on it…
lemma -
I wonder if you might remember this little (sad) factoid about the day Geraldine Ferraro’s position on the Democratic slate was announced so many years ago –
On the very same day (although some hours before the announcement, IIRC) a woman, who obviously suffered psychological troubles that are almost unimaginable for most of us, in Chicago (was it there???) committed suicide by setting herself on fire in front of the legislature (or was it a court building? sorry, it was so long ago….)
Before setting herself ablaze she had mailed out a manifesto to officials explaining her act — she could no longer live in a world where women were so degraded that pornography distributors who trafficked in the most violent images of physical torture of women were winked at and allowed to pass on such content to customers eager to view, and aroused by, such content.
Now, it’s clear that this poor soul had many demons driving her tragic action.
But it was such a weird juxtaposition on that day which otherwise was such a celebration for women.
[This isn’t a matter important to our discussion, I just wonder if anyone else remembers that peculiar and horrifying piece of “trivia” - ugh.]
But here’s the rub …
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g.....index.html
I have all my report cards that my late mother kept. And now I am the one who fills out the report cards. If only I could go back and tell some of my teachers how much I loved them. ;0)
Hey there, soul mate!
The nuns said that I talked too much too. I got straight A’s, but they still had to gripe.
I wondered, even then, if it was because I raised my hand and asked questions like the following –
“If it is true, as you say, that cremation is not permitted for Catholics because the “Raising of the Dead” on the Last Day requires the remains of the dead to be intact — what does God do in the case of people innocently burned to death in a house fire?”
Some of the teachers really liked my vigorous questioning (and they were my favorites), but others? Not so much.
In response to nothing visible on this thread, let’s take the poo flinging somewhere else.
Parents, doctors, nurses and teachers. Our kids need these people.
Well, I will have to say that it looks simpler and better than I thought it would. I could probably live with it. Which means one of two things - either it won’t look like that when it is finally passed and/or Bush will veto it.
Oh, my.
Let me take this opportunity, RBG, to thank you for all the good work you do behind the scenes. I too often forget to thank our mods. Bless you!
Ditto and you to WB
Unfortunately, part of my problem was I didn’t always raise my hand AND I couldn’t whisper.
What about Basket warrants?
I got the same thing from a bunch of teachers, problem was that my mom was the kindergarden teacher at that school. Lately, we talked about this, and she said that the unintelligent teachers were extremely bothered by my arguments and intelligence…
To me she sounds very angry.
RBG: The perfect response…I rest my case.
Why in the world would our citizens so easily give up their privacy? And why would our elected representatives go along with this crime?
Well, then –
That makes you perfectly suited and well-prepared for a life of progressive activism. No whispering or misplaced deference permitted in the anti-fascist cause!
Good on you.
:-)
Parents. Please teach your children that their teachers are their friends.
I have two things to say about ‘ex parte.’
Call me old fashioned, but if it is ex parte, it is something that is contrary to 7 or 8 hundred years of our English/American judicial history.
Call me old fashioned, but ex parte is something more appropriate for the Mayflower Hotel than an American court of law.
I’m gonna go with a likely veto — sources have been telling me for a while that the House members who have been working their asses off on this, along with the folks in the Senate who have been doing the same got royally pissed off at the high-handed snottiness of the GOP the last debate in the Senate. And that Rockefeller isn’t helping matters…and he’s beginning to realize it. And that this got worked up as a “take it or leave it” response to being pissed. We’ll see where it goes from here, but this is just the sort of institutional conflict that the Founders counted on to keep things a little more above board in terms of competing interests…
It took ‘em this long to get pissed off? Must be dead from the neck up.
Nothing sparkles a teacher’s eye more than when a kid says, ‘I get it!’
I like your “old-fashioned-ness” –
it’s the same type of “old-fashioned-ness” that finds inspiration in the words of Patrick Henry and Thomas Paine.
I don’t remember that, but it was a long time ago (or maybe the effect of hitting age 50 a few days ago). Believe me, I know how evil sexism is. My Mom had to quit good job when she got pregnant. My own father told me and my 2 sisters he would never pay for graduate school for us because we would be taking a “man’s job