NOTE: The House is pushing forward the civil suit on contempt for Miers and Bolten. Am working on getting a copy of the complaint (filed today) and supporting docs, and will have an update on that as soon as I've read and analyzed them.
Despite months of wrangling, the Bush Administration is still fearmongering to protect its secrets. Via CQPolitics:
In a letter to lawmakers Thursday, panel Chairman John D. Dingell of Michigan, and two subcommittee chairmen, Edward J. Markey of Massachusetts and Bart Stupak of Michigan, said claims by the chief of security at an unnamed wireless carrier that the company may have given a government entity access to all of its customers’ communications, justified further delay in considering the legislation....
Yup, it's yet another illegal domestic NSA spying allegation sprung from the hydra's head. How many more of these to come? The Administration's response through Michael Chertoff: Rule of law? So?
Call your Senators and Representative today -- and tell them no telecom immunity and to stand up for the rule of law and the Fourth Amendment. Security and civil liberties protection are not mutually exclusive.
Why be concerned [via WSJ (subs. req.)]:
...According to current and former intelligence officials, the spy agency now monitors huge volumes of records of domestic emails and Internet searches as well as bank transfers, credit-card transactions, travel and telephone records. The NSA receives this so-called "transactional" data from other agencies or private companies, and its sophisticated software programs analyze the various transactions for suspicious patterns. Then they spit out leads to be explored by counterterrorism programs across the U.S. government, such as the NSA's own Terrorist Surveillance Program, formed to intercept phone calls and emails between the U.S. and overseas without a judge's approval when a link to al Qaeda is suspected.
The NSA's enterprise involves a cluster of powerful intelligence-gathering programs, all of which sparked civil-liberties complaints when they came to light. They include a Federal Bureau of Investigation program to track telecommunications data once known as Carnivore, now called the Digital Collection System, and a U.S. arrangement with the world's main international banking clearinghouse to track money movements.
The effort also ties into data from an ad-hoc collection of so-called "black programs" whose existence is undisclosed, the current and former officials say. Many of the programs in various agencies began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach. Among them, current and former intelligence officials say, is a longstanding Treasury Department program to collect individual financial data including wire transfers and credit-card transactions.
It isn't clear how many of the different kinds of data are combined and analyzed together in one database by the NSA. An intelligence official said the agency's work links to about a dozen antiterror programs in all.
A number of NSA employees have expressed concerns that the agency may be overstepping its authority by veering into domestic surveillance. And the constitutional question of whether the government can examine such a large array of information without violating an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy "has never really been resolved," said Suzanne Spaulding, a national-security lawyer who has worked for both parties on Capitol Hill....
The NSA uses its own high-powered version of social-network analysis to search for possible new patterns and links to terrorism. The Pentagon's experimental Total Information Awareness program, later renamed Terrorism Information Awareness, was an early research effort on the same concept, designed to bring together and analyze as much and as many varied kinds of data as possible. Congress eliminated funding for the program in 2003 before it began operating. But it permitted some of the research to continue and TIA technology to be used for foreign surveillance.
Some of it was shifted to the NSA -- which also is funded by the Pentagon -- and put in the so-called black budget, where it would receive less scrutiny and bolster other data-sifting efforts, current and former intelligence officials said. "When it got taken apart, it didn't get thrown away," says a former top government official familiar with the TIA program.
Two current officials also said the NSA's current combination of programs now largely mirrors the former TIA project. But the NSA offers less privacy protection. TIA developers researched ways to limit the use of the system for broad searches of individuals' data, such as requiring intelligence officers to get leads from other sources first. The NSA effort lacks those controls, as well as controls that it developed in the 1990s for an earlier data-sweeping attempt.
The GOP is fighting to keep full details under wraps because they know this is illegal under FISA. Or at least, keep it muffled until the 2008 elections. Civil liberties sacrificed on the alter of electoral expediency.
Given that we are still waiting for the Phase II report -- four years later and counting -- how many are confident that Congress able to provide adequate oversight of the NSA and black programs sucking in every bit of electronic data to pass through the US? *crickets* This deserves full debate, not half-assed measures rushed through before the latest break.
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zed
I used to criticize Patsy Roberts, now I have turned my ire to Jello Jay et al.
Waving & blowing kisses to NSA.
Sorry for the long blurb from WSJ — it was behind the subscription wall, and a long article, but I thought getting the gist of this to you all was important this morning.
Guess if the GW Clusterfuck government CAN get “intelligenced” about something- they WILL get it- making up some drippy asshole justification or another.
The scary thing is that the NEXT government may have the same prediliction.
No need to apologize. I want to sey wow, but sadly not surprised at the recent turn of events.
Oh, and good morning *g*
TPM was describing a for-instance to this article: if they suspected a terrorist was in Detroit, they’d collect all the communications going in and out of Detroit and sift through them for possible information. Not just ’suspects’, not just ‘persons of interest’, but everyone.
So much for the 4th amendment requirements for warrants.
I sure hope at least half of Congress reads this article and gets as ticked as us.
If a dem administration takes over in January, they are going to find a hell of a lot more problems than missing “w”s on keyboards.
And you know, we’ve know for a while that TIA was alive and well. It’s not as though anything ever goes away in the intel industry, it just gets renamed and recycled. But this is beyond John POindexter’s wet dreams in terms of technological capability…and I have to wonder how much money is going out the federal budget door to these outsourced sifters? And how many of them are foreign companies, for avoidance of oversight and legal liability…
I used to criticize Patsy Roberts, now I have turned my ire to Jello Jay et al.
Ya beat me to it angie.
Is it possible, however, that Roberts never really *did* any investigating, and Rockefeller was forced to essentially start from scratch?
P.S. oops, almost forgot to wave to the NSA guys there. Hi y’all!!
Pretty much. How’s that for utter disregard for civil liberties? Do you trust the Bush Administration not to misuse this information?!?
I, for one, have stopped using the word zucchini in my emails. It’s just too dangerous.
oy…AP: Water supplies from coast to coast tainted by drug residue
*sigh* EPA on the job again…thanks shrub
How can anyone fight against that? And weren’t there some founding fathers who knew a thing or two about govt tyranny? And anyone who thinks the Ds won’t do the same thing is naive.
As it seems pretty obvious right now cheney and bush would have to murder their mothers before pelosi would even think of impeachment so I assume this FISA fight is not to immediately protect them. They certainly could not give a hoot about the telecoms (oil companies would be a different story!) and I question whether they give a damn about the goop party. I do believe, however, that they do not want the next pres to sift through and publicize all their illegal doings and so would prefer a “friendly” president such as McBus or clinton2.
What I do not understand is why the Congress does not impeach these guys to stop them pardoning the myriads of WH transgressors, including themselves, as they know full well that bushco have broken the law numerous times. With no impeachment he can cover his tracks with a pardon party (fete, gala, orgy) to beat all parties
LOL
Editorial suggest. TIA is not John Poindexter’s wet dream, it is his whore house, where he can f*ck everything in sight.
The only way is to keep subjecting it to sunlight — and keep pressuring them to do the same. If they think their own political interests are hanging from exposing this rather than covering it up, they’ll go with their own self-interest. The key is to force the issue so that they have to do so.
btw, gang, Conyers and Leahy sent out a letter last week to their mailing lists asking that folks send in LTEs in their local papers. It’s a great idea, and one that I would encourage as well…
Christy,
It looks like Patrick Leahy and John Conyers are taking a page out of the FDL playbook. I just received an email titled “Join Our Team to Fix FISA” requesting I send a letter to the editor to my local newspaper to
Nearl half of the senate is gooper- it takes 2/3 of em to remove a prez. This is a blind alley.
lol. Are you saying that you really don’t need some quality time
forall by yourself for, oh, say the next three or four years?LOL — I thought that went out last week, but I may have gotten a draft — see my comment immediately above.
All organizations have inertia. Getting them to change their mindsets take time. Given the reflexive tendency towards secrecy and compartmentalization, I’ve often wondered if there is shit they just don’t tell an incoming administration about.
Yes. I also think the sad truth is this: the fact that this article is top of the fold on the Wall Street Journal will force certain blind-deaf-dumb people to respond or at least react. Other news sources, not so much.
RW,
I do not care about the Senate, I want the investigative function of the trial in the House. Like Watergate.
It’s not going to happen. This idiot’s term is about over- it’s an election year. Would be fun to watch- but probably political disaster- about the only way goopers could win back congress.
Sad as it is to say, I think that’s true. It’s not new information in terms of what’s been speculated about for quite a while, but the sourcing from Gorman’s article adds a LOT of intriguing details. I’d expect the Bush Administration to go postal about this article today — but not as much as they could have if it had been the NYTimes, say. Seems to me that the sources on this made a savvy move in going to Gorman — whose reporting is generally pretty good anyway. (Now that Murdoch owns the WSJ, I wonder how much longer the real journalists on staff there will be allowed to do their jobs like this? Hmmmm….)
I believe that the writ of impeachment stops all pardons that could interfere with the reasons for impeachment. I am not a lawyer and frequently stay at hostels. The Senate may never have to come in to play if we get the information available to us under the writ and the bastards resign (sigh…deep sigh)
It may have gone out last week. Since it came to an AT&T account, there could have been some “delays” in transit…
The advice in Saturday’s ‘Pull Up a Chair ‘ post should be considered and heeded by the House - “Don’t Wait.”
In any legal action delay always favors the Defendant[s]. This is particularly true in contempt matters.
Good morning, everybody-here’s a little Monday morning pick-me-up.
The all-seeing, all-knowing Karl Rove makes a prediction:
“I haven’t been indicted yet, but I fully expect to be by the end of the year.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/10/rove-iowa/
It’s all come down to a game of chess hasn’t it? The truth won’t “will out”, yet anyway. So, the cold fact is, find a good/great reporter who works for Murdoch and get your story out. Pretty smart. I just wish they’d made this move sooner. It might have reduced the ability of the blind-deaf-dumb people to play blind-deaf-dumb.
In any legal action delay always favors the Defendant[s]. This is particularly true in contempt matters.
You’ve obviously never spent any time behind bars as a result of having been found to be in contempt.
Question for the day: Do Mr. Henry and his staff ever sleep?
http://yubanet.com/usa/Waxman-.....ations.php
Great post Chisty. Thanks for keeping the torch lite.
Gotta read through the links later.
Also great to hear that the house is engaging constituents for support.
I think people invent their own rationale for remaining blind, deaf and dumb, including their own self-interest in doing so. I don’t look for an enormous revelation for a whole host of folks…but the ones who have been asking questions? Perhaps this will be one set of questions too many as continued justification for support. Guess we’ll see, but it’s sure as hell time to raise our voices a bit more in the chorus of questions, isn’t it?
OT..looks as if the “fix” is in on those House subpoenas:
dkos
from your link:
In all three instances, Blackwater has asserted in official communications that its security guards are independent contractors because the company does not exercise sufficient control over their activities in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Kinda hard to argue with that one, huh?
What’s the final objective? A civil suit?
Here’s a link to the whole article, from TPM’s coverage of it.
Now, compare this to the affidavit from the techie that TPM and Wired put up Friday/Saturday, and it becomes clear that the capabilities built in, are to listen in on conversations in real time.
And note this: “If the feds suspect there’s a terrorist in Detroit, ‘the government’s spy systems may be directed to collect and analyze all electronic communications into and out of the city.’
So much for particularized suspicion, let alone warrants.”
When was the last time any cop or spy built capability to spy in and then did not use it?
Look the choice is simple. We let Bush do what he wants or we all die. After all of his fuck over the last 7 years, you would think that Democrats would at least begin to see past this but they never seem to. I ascribe this to the fact that we are living in the Age of Stupid where reason, logic, and facts can’t hold a candle to mindless slogans endlessly repeated.
The suit has been filed..and Judge Bates is the judge…with his track record, it doesn’t look good for the House to get their subpoenas, IMO.
Amazing that the WSJ printed this article. I can’t figure out their motivation. The WSJ has been complicit in promoting all that is right wing. IIRC, doesn’t Rupert Murdoch now own the WSJ? Someone said this article was above the fold. Was it on Page One?
Can we skip Bates and go straight to the Supremos?
Which is the entire point of having a disinterested third party judicial oversight built into the system in the form of particularized warrants being requested before any such activity. And why they went around it — because no judge would ever, under the law, approve a scheme like they are using now because it is…wait for it…utterly and completely illegal.
…we are living in the Age of Stupid…
ah, my time has come…
Is that above-the-fold front page?
If so, kinda amazin’ that it made the light of day. Or maybe the thugs are more scared about losing in November than we realize and they assume the Dems are gonna use what they made available. Sauce for the goose and all that.
I asking is what happens after that? IANAL, but I think I remember reading somewhere that Congress can file a civil suit for contempt.
Don’t confuse a lot of the reporters with teh agenda of the editorial page. They are often at odds in terms of reporting (which gets relegated to mid-paper pages) versus what Paul Gigot and his neocon pals do on the editorial page arguments.
The WSJ angle is fascinating to me.
The primary audience of the WSJ are folks who run corporations (mid- to upper-level management types), many of which spend large amounts of money keeping their future activities a secret from their competition. More than a few of these readers might be more than a little concerned that someone — ANYone — might be sucking up their corporate secrets. Next thing you know, someone’s hacked into those secrets, or maybe a little leak comes out, and presto! Years of work behind the scenes is now in the hands of their competitors.
Corporate America may want to be kept safe from terrorists, but they also want their own projects and discussions kept from anyone’s prying eyes as well.
If this is a little corporate pushback, I’d love to see some more!
Could you legal beagles point out that there is the DIRECT CONTEMPT procedure which is not novel, been done many, many times (tho not recently).
I had to grit my teeth and hear people like Bernie Sanders and even Waxman on the radio claim to have no understanding of this procedure.
Look: a civil suit will go before one of these Bush appointed judges and get nowhere. I want to see Harriet and Bolten frog walking into Congress.
The fact is that anyone who has the Dubya/Cheney connections can steal information from others regarding stock trades, private business and investment matters, inventions, proprietary trade secrets, the recipe for KFC, political strategies, and much more.
This is the civil suit for contempt. It’s the next step after the DOJ refused to honor their obligation to procede after the House vote on this. Am working on getting a copy of the complaint to read and analyze…
Christy, obviously you missed my request to go over to DKos for my first diary which I put up Friday evening at 8:25. It’s entitled “Open Letter to Congress”. I did that letter, which I sent to my congressperson, to the Speaker and to Reyes, in response to your request in “Let’s Hit the Phones and Faxes”. That was like my seventh letter. Are you saying I need to write another one today? Should we just get up every morning and write a letter to our Congressperson? I’m getting so exhausted! And there’s never any feedback, no attaboys, just another blank page!
How went the morning in court? Glad to see *you* aren’t in jail for contempt. *g*
I think they are taking this one step at a time, the next being the civil suit…and we’ll see where it goes from there if they need to then procede to inherent contempt. At least, that’s the impression that I have from where things are on this.
No surprise, that.
OT Now, back to your earlier post on Alabama and down the DOJ rabbit hole. How different was what the Ala. USAtty tried (serving GJ subpoenas on the Legislative floor, searching offices, klieg lights) from what Main Justice did with the FBI when they tossed Rep. “Cash in Freezer” Jefferson’s House offices?
The only distinction I can come up with quickly is “Denny Hastert didn’t tell the Capitol Police to stop them, while the Ala. Speaker did.”
Thoughts?
You mean I missed a comment in the hundreds of comments we get here every day? Say it isn’t so… *g* Do you have a link?
Yep, big headline, top of the page, front and center. I about spewed when I read it this morning.
This has been my angle to fight back from the beginning. Like duh, it’s not about terrorism but keeping an eye on political and corporate adversaries. And scaring the citizenry so they’ll keep voting GOP and keep GOP eyes on the data.
Christy,
Keep up the fight,
So what Impeachment is an investigation that the MSM will have to cover. You never know where it will lead but no white house stonewall.
Times way shorter then you think. And somebody else won’t clean this mess up.
State secrets, executive privilege ,the cia all have nothing to do with an open government controlled by a knowledgeable electorate!
perhaps.
I think not, though. I think the truth is just too grotesque and if Americans (and people around the world) knew how far our “democracy” has been eroded, the “elected” officials (who were either complicit or asleep at the wheel) would have to run….. really fast.
What they did with Jefferson was take what was argued to be a lawful subpoena for a search of the offices, looking for evidence — it was an odd request, but one where arguably if you have a member attempting to use his office to hide evidence of wrongdoing, you have competing interests of Congressional privilege and law enforcement interest in discovery of legitimate evidence for prosecution.
What they were trying to do in Alabama was turn the entire floor of their legislature into a televised, photographed perp walk, for inherently political purposes and PR value at the top of the list of reasons to do so.
Thanks. I had lost track.
Attagirl, Ann!
and while we’re high fivin’, Tucker is cancelled!!! woo hoo! (I know that was posted over the weekend, but really, it’s a big check in Win One for Reality column).
If you’d read the techie’s affidavit (which I linked to in @40 on this thread), you’d see that the circuit they have allows them to read texting and emails in real time, listen to phone calls in real time, and use “Network VCR” to go back and see what had transpired beforehand, too.
Given that the NSA are the world’s foremost cryptographers, I’d suspect that whatever a businessman writes, says or sends, regardless of his level of encryption, can be instantly read by anyone with access.
Loads of fun to ensue when some techie decides his government salary isn’t enough and decides to do a little insider trading, I suppose.
Bush and Cheney are fraudulent debtors, borrowing what they know they can’t repay. If their default were a mere $100 loan, their bank would own them, their credit rating and their economic security for the next several years. Longer if they used their credit card.
But if they default on $1 billion loan, they own the bank. It can’t afford the loss or the bad publicity or the investigations and job losses over who loaned that much money to a pair of serial mismanagers.
Right now, it looks like they’re defaulting on trillions of debts and interest and a lot of other IOU’s they’ve given to the American people. And Congress is acting exactly as if they were the bank manager who had OK’d those loans.
Bingo.
It isn’t only about political spying, a lot of this is about money.
Skip them and right to inherent contempt. Let those in congress, left with any balls ,draw a bright line in the sand!
It’s hard to keep track given how many issues are bobbing around at once at the moment. It’s like mental ping pong some days trying to remember which issue is where in terms of procedure and next steps…
How went the morning in court? Glad to see *you* aren’t in jail for contempt. *g*
yes, about that. Turns out the judge wasn’t at all enamored of the idea of having me hanging around in his courtroom in front of a jury for the next day or two trying an absolute bullshit case. So first he got mad at me for refusing to plead - so I explained *why* I wouldn’t plead it. Then he got mad at the State and ordered both of our lawyerly asses out into the hall to figure something out.
On her fifth try, she made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. Plead to a “C” infraction, no crime, no time, pay a fine. Like rolling a stop sign, for example. I took it, and came home.
All amped up in trial mode right now with nowhere to go, but I’m pretty happy.
I don’t see much of a distinction - the subpoenas/warrants in Alabama were surely regularly issued and in the proper form, too.
And, if you remember, the search of his house was the subject of helicopters and all the rest. The only reasons they couldn’t pull that off inside the House office building are (a) it was a Saturday night and no one would be watching and (b) kinda hard to get news crews in.
Celebrating too soon, you are. Someone in a downstairs thread said his replacement will be scar. Say it ain’t so, Joe!
I read the stuff in emptywheel about this. The guy setting it up was incredulous that Verizon was giving access to unknown government players with no controls and no logging of activities. They could have been stealing financial information from the company or from all of us for all they knew. The deliberately didn’t want to know. Thanks Verizon.
Read “dude that’s what they want…”
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......they-want/
Re Zuchinni: I’ve always advocated all of us, everyone, emailing each other and themselves, as often as possible nonsense emails that contain the words: “bomb” “train” “terrorist” “al queda” “assassination” “terror” “nuclear” ‘dirty bomb” etc. Just blow up their surveillance program wich sheer quantity of total crap. Wouldn’t that be fun?
I’m holding my breath waiting for the NewsHour to tell me that our civil liberties are in extremis, threatened by years of massive White House-authorized data thefts from millions of Americans, which have left as much of a paper trail for prosecutors as a Diebold voting machine.
and then the Boston FISA-Tea Party?
Maybe some FDLers who work in such corporate offices might want to send the WSJ item and/or a link to this post around to their coworkers and higher-ups.
As scribe said @ 66:
In the corporate world, jokes about insider trading are treated in the same way the airport world looks at jokes about bombs.
In addition to LTEs and letters to congress, a letter to the boss at work might also be worth writing. “Hey, this is very troubling from a corporate-secrets point of view. Perhaps we might want to exert a little pressure through our lobbyists on our friends in Congress, to shut this thing down — or at least have proper oversight exercised via the judicial branch issuing a warrant.”
“Wouldn’t that be fun?” No, it would be a way to get your friends and colleagues on the watch list, including the no-fly list. Don’t go there.
I’m not saying there wasn’t a PR purpose in the Jefferson thing as well — I’m just saying that’s the public argument put forth about his office search, which I thought was the point of your question. What they did with his house and all the rest is a different question in my mind due to the nature of the conduct surrounding it.
Inherent contempt is fun to think about but it isn’t going to happen. At some level for the “system” to work, the Busko’s would have to play by the rules and obay the law. They won’t. If the House tried to go with Inherent Contempt, it would fail and further expose the weakness of the Legislative Branch. The Dems have bet the farm on the Nov elections.
You can be sure a lot is going “off-shore”. It is very difficult to research and keep informed on parts of the government being run through offices off our soil. Also, it makes it next to impossible to protest them and bring attention to them. It is another firewall to keep the people out.
Especially your friends and colleagues who travel outside of the country from time to time.
Christy: but I’m a civil litigator. It could take months, years to resolve. They are playing for time — run the clock out on their illegality and count on Hilary or John to cover their tracks. As bill clinton did with the October surprise investigation — putting to bed how Reagan-Bush had the Iranians hold our hostages until after the election so Carter wouldn’t win.
Just did a quick read of the WSJ article.
Apparently the govt claims a perfect right to collect information ABOUT communications but not the communications themselves. For example, the govt. can learn that you sent or received an e-mail at a certain date or time, who you received it from or sent it to- and what the subject was- but not the e-mail itself..likewise records of phone calls are fair game but not the phone calls themselve- likewise credit card transactions, etc.
This theory is based on a fairly old supreme court decision.
Apparently the govt. can get as much info as they need in this fashion- and in the end can then get a warrant for the actual content if necessary.
Good on you, darlin’! And excellent news for your client.
The ACLU(?) estimated that by this Summer, one million names will be on the no fly list. I am going to Acapulco in two weeks, I wonder if they will let me on the plane?
I know it could — but I’m telling you they are going to take this step by step because that’s what I’m being told as well. There is no support from the GOP or the Blue Dogs who would have to vote inherent contempt through and, without that consensus magically building over the next few hours or something, it just isn’t going to happen…yet.
How would it fail? Seriously? They issue arrest warrants and send out some rent-a-cops to pick them up and bring them in. Where do they get jailed, tho? Congress used to have a jail ni the basement, right?
Yes, ma’am, I do. But my real point is that at this point, we’ve pretty much said all that we can say. The people on the receiving end are by now either swayed already, or they are simply filing our letters in the circular file or in a file cabinet under our names, never to be seen again. It’s time to brainstorm something different. Perhaps recalls in all fifty states of all those congresspeople who are passing openly unconstitutional laws. Or a law suit, or something else.
thanks, and as you mentioned, probably good news for me too, with regard to the contempt thing.
I *was* in that kind of mood this morning….
This is an excellent point. W’s crew does not play by the rules. They make their own laws and everyone else is back there following the law and it’s like pissing in the wind with these guys.
Their excuse is 911 changed everything and so whatever they do is to protect the nation and state secret. This “position” is impenetrable” within the law…. especially with the “unitary executive” usurping congress at every turn.
Hopefully Bill Foster’s win in Illinois should wake up a bunch of them. He talked about the FISA thing and said he will vote against immunity. And he won a strongly Republican District to take Hastert’s old seat. This should shake up the repubs cuz no district is safe and buck of the weak Dems.
We’ve been wondering what could be so illegal, so unconstitutional, that the entire top tier of the Justice Department (Ashcroft, Comey, Mueller etc) would threaten to resign en masse?
Invading the privacy of American citizens in such an egregious way that even conservative Republicans serving in the administration would gag on it?
Like an athiest’s corpse after the funeral, all dressed up and no where to go.
Do you really think Bush will allow them to be arrested? In the worst case, he would send them to Europe for a nice long vacation.
They need to know we are repeatedly watching on this. If they think people have stopped paying attention, the likelihood of trying to sneak something through becomes higher. That’s why I’ve been asking for repeated contacts — why everyone has. Because the last time they sneaked this through, that contact was not occurring on a regular basis…and they thought they could get away with it without repurcussion. And it has taken us months to walk that thought back a bit…reinforcement is a good thing.
Sorry, I thought that was clear from what I’d previously written about this.
Can we PLEASE impeach him now?
Help me out here. What good is all this data they “legally” collect if the content is separate? Can they read the content? Use the content? Is the content legal? What prevents them from acting on the content?
Just asking.
Good Morning Christy and Firedogs,
am loving Glennzilla’s compare and contrast on telco imm in the IL-14 triumph
have been waiting the last few years to see if in fact they would reanimate the terra terra terra gambit and am so very pleased to see they will indeed return to that empty well and Congressman King’s comments about al-quaeda dancing in the streets underscores it beautifully
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp’d tow’rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
- teehee
*ding ding ding*
We have a winner.
“Dear Mr/Ms GOP Member of Congress,
“I am very distressed that you are abandoning the rule of law and playing on the fears of the American People. Still, if you want to play the fear card, you might want to look at how that played in the recent race to replace Dennis Hastert. You can just ask the new Democratic Rep Bill Foster when he gets sworn in . . .”
I was under the impression that the inherent contempt issue would be decided by the HJC and SJC Committees. Wrong?
re: bluedogs. How could *any* member of Congress refuse to vote for a finding of contempt when the person in question just blatantly disrespected the very institution in which he or she serves? Hard to believe…but I’ve said that before I guess, on many other issues.
“fix FISA the right way” WTF?
i don’t think this is helpful at all - it plays right into the right-wing frame that there is something wrong with FISA. what’s wrong is the administration’s warrantless spying and congress’ lack of oversight.
damn. i’m calling these guys too. what morons.
Along with the rest of humanity..but I have had a good time getting to my funeral.
How many emails do I have to send chronicalling the illegitimate necessity of removing of the brat inhabiting the people’s house from this mortal coil, before I have federal agents knocking down my door?
Just your reading this endagers you. I feel scared even writing it. And I certainly don’t endorse it. The only removal I countenance for his emminence is from office.
Please forgive me Christy & Jane.
Like an athiest’s corpse after the funeral, all dressed up and no where to go.
LOL - never heard that one before - I’m stealing it.
Wiki
Ack!
I agree. Foster is poignant news that seems to have received little coverage. Every aspect of it is important: the seat he replaces, the dominating political party in his district, the strong veto by the voters of the past 7 years. This is worthy of attention. So why do I feel like I’m searching in a vacuum for news?
Cool, fugitives! Then they could be on “America’s Most Wanted”
Howie had a huge piece on it this weekend…Jane linked it up (maybe yesterday?)
Plus, this could be why the silicon valley techy type companies were among the first companies to “send a letter”. They know better than anyone what the technology is capable of, and what’s being given away.
Perhaps we should “text” those LTEs…then everyone will hear us now.
Thanks much. I’ll check it out today. I sit in the sun and enjoy my patio one day and the world goes by me. No rest for the …..
thanks.
Here is the link..DWT
It’s a nice win but I feel cheated..I donated to the Laesch campaign for two elections and he should have been the candidate to win the House seat.
Hi pups…
The PAA’s argument has apparently been connected with 9/11 but I believe to have heard that this warrantless wiretapping occurred prior to 9/11.
October 13, 2007 WaPo article cites QWest former ceo statement that NSA
approached his firm to wiretap in February 2001.
If the war on terrorists is such an important issue why wasn’t the issue brought forth back by our government when Qwest’s former ceo was apparently refused warrant-less surveillance in February 2001 prior to 9/11?
Instead apparently the incident is revealed years later in an article in a Washington Post October 13th 2007.
&….
I don’t understand why the telcos who were instrumental in creating the original FISA with all its protections would even consider PAA as a viable alternative to this original law.
Since they were the framers of the original FISA (with the government) the telcos would know the broad ramifications of PAA and they themselves would be vulnerable to warrantless wiretapping because of their unique position and compromised relationship with this particular program.
My point was more along the lines of
(1) their Executive Branch is going to kick in any doors and breach any comity* they want, if it serves the purpose of getting Democrats out of office and Republicans in (even in the most attenuated sense);
(2) Rove has a habit of trying some (new, thuggish campaign-oriented) stunt in a smaller, less-noticed venue where he can count on a friendly Establishment/judge to cover his ass (like San Antonio or Alabama or whereever) and then replicating it in a less-congenial venue and, if called on it, pointing to his prior success as precedent supporting him;
(3) For Rove and the Rethugs, this blow-through-the-barriers approach is a no-lose proposition. If they succeed, they get to knock Dems out of office. If they fail, they have strengthened protections against law enforcement, to use to protect their own criminality.
* Remember, there were existing procedures in place (inter-branch comity) for searching Congressmembers’ offices for evidence of possible crime, which required the Speaker and Minority Leader to be notified and placed limits on the FBI. Gonzo and his FBI just blew through them, so much so that Hastert started the suit to re-assert Speech and Debate privilege against the search.
and let’s not forget he’s an actual scientist - sweeet!
Laesch deserves all possible credit for being the one to run against the Speaker of the House when everybody thought that was a kamikaze mission. Now the seat is held by a different Democrat, but it’s because of Laesch’s leadership.
I wish he had been the candidate too, was an early supporter.
It’s hard to keep track given how many issues are bobbing around at once at the moment. It’s like mental ping pong some days trying to remember which issue is where in terms of procedure and next steps…
I’ve actually come around to thinking this is part of their strategy; do so many corrupt and reprehensible things people don’t know where to start.
This also offers the added benefit of a kind of sensory overload; when another lie surfaces you kinda go “Oh it’s just them being them” and move on .
Let’s hear it for physicists!!!
this is why you have to read the techie’s affidavit I linked to @40 on this thread. The WSJ article says the government says it is only collecting and reading the header information and address information (which is allowed by that 1979 case) and not the content. The techie who put the system in, on the other hand (and under oath) says the capability the government has, is to read and listen to content in real time. And to go back.
Big difference. Who you gonna believe - the sworn techie, or an anonymous government line-minding spokesperson?
The White House, if questioned in a way they couldn’t avoid, would claim that it has inherent authority to collect data about the data, as if it were collecting phone numbers alone and not tapping calls. But the NSA can and almost certainly does aggregate that data with other data in ways that can reveal detailed personal information.
But let’s see a show of hands: 1) Who believes that agencies of the US Government in this administration won’t look at call or e-mail content anyway? 2) Who believes that the coterie of outside data holders and processors, including the RNC, which are not subject to the same rules and which, no doubt, are beneficiaries of indemnity agreements from the White House, won’t do that?
Do you think that the admin is limiting its “intelligence” collecting to only “suspected terrorists”? How easy would it be for them to collect every email from every Democratic Senator and Representative? How easy would it be to collect every single piece of electronic information from every influential Democratic Senator and Representative. How easy would it be to then data mine ALL that information for something incriminating?
Would this explain why Little Georgie and the Big Dick keep getting their way? Blackmail? Is this why impeachment is off the table? Is there something in the business dealings of The Honorable Nancy Pelosi and her husband that would jeopardize them?
And then there’s the media…
Give them The Carrot and The Stick.
The Carrot is access and acquiescence that puts the like of Timmeh on the tube and comes with very, very large sums of money. The stick is that little piece of information, which exposed would take away all that prestige and money.
Blackmail is always the more effective way of turning a spy, (see J. LeCarre’s Smiley’s People). It’s the best way to get what you want from someone.
This must stop.
Civil Liberties must be restored.
Just because I sound paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me…
I’m sure Laesch helped Foster to take a stand on immunity as well.
Hey, has anyone found any other incidents of “retroactive immunity”..
This is the only other one I found—-
Military Commissions Act of 2006
SEC. 7. REVISIONS TO DETAINEE TREATMENT ACT OF 2005 RELATING TO PROTECTION OF CERTAIN UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL.
(a) Counsel and Investigations- Section 1004(b) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (42 U.S.C. 2000dd-1(b)) is amended–
(1) by striking `may provide’ and inserting `shall provide’;
(2) by inserting `or investigation’ after `criminal prosecution’; and
(3) by inserting `whether before United States courts or agencies, foreign courts or agencies, or international courts or agencies,’ after `described in that subsection’.
(b) Protection of Personnel- Section 1004 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (42 U.S.C. 2000dd-1) shall apply with respect to any criminal prosecution that–
(1) relates to the detention and interrogation of aliens described in such section;
(2) is grounded in section 2441(c)(3) of title 18, United States Code; and
(3) relates to actions occurring between September 11, 2001, and December 30, 2005.
SEC. 8. RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY.
This Act shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act and shall apply retroactively, including–
(1) to any aspect of the detention, treatment, or trial of any person detained at any time since September 11, 2001; and
(2) to any claim or cause of action pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act.
It seems it is too often the way it goes, doesn’t it? Ever since Christine Cegalis, I have been cynical.
I seriously doubt that we will ever see our 4th amendment rights protected.
The government believes it needs to spy and spy it will with or without the cooperation of the telcoms. They will find a way to do it WITHOUT the telcoms.
The complaint from the house is here [fixed by mod]
What I find disappointing is it does not ask the court to direct the justice dept to pursue criminal contempt.
Dear Earl Of Huntington,
I changed a few things in your post… You don’t sound concerned enough.
moderator, I don’t know why the link to the contempt complaint isn’t working in 128 above, but this is it: http://www.speaker.gov/blog/wp.....plaint.pdf
Christy, I understand what you’re saying, and if I didn’t agree, I wouldn’t have already written so many letters (I’ve actually lost count) on this subject. But I still say, WE NEED MORE TOOLS FOR OUR TOOLBOX!
Perhaps we could brainstorm. We need something that’s actually gonna grab the population in general. Dodd’s leadership was a good idea. WE NEED MORE DODDS. These people have larger platforms and more credibility. What my thinking is, if you call the police department every day with a complaint, they just mark you off as some kook. We need not to be so easily dismissed. We need to figure out what will bring the people to the streets with figurative pitchforks. And by the way, I don’t think the lady that backed an anti-flagburning amendment or law is the right person to be looking after my civil rights. I’m not sure, but maybe a Constitutional Law professor might be. I’m thinking that may be why Dodd endorsed him. In any case, we need to convince someone who is or will be in power to show leadership in this area. We need something that’s bigger than all of us put together so that we cannot be dismissed, or else they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. So far, I’ve heard far too many people saying they don’t care if the government listens in on their conversations!
even dodd (who i like) didn’t live up to his promise to filibuster (looks like he may get a second chance though).
Yes, but then we are all under suspicion, aren’t we?
Think about it. If you are a spy what kind of mental state are you in most of the time? Paranoid/Suspicious. Why would I spy on my neighbors? Something about them I don’t trust. Why would the myriad spy agencies spy on US citizens? Something they don’t trust about us. You are in a state of suspicion of anything that is something other than monochromatic.
Beware of free thinkers.
Besides, W has the authority to determine who is a terrorist and who is not…Congress perhaps?
Why indeed?
I’m open to any suggestions. My thoughts on this are merely theories. (See #123 and #129 above) They seem all too plausible, but I certainly could be wrong.
The link is too long, and it’s truncating as a result — you need to imbed it. I’ll fix it in your comment above.
I guess the bottom line is that we all live under the same umbrella…
Why would anybody in their right mind consider PAA as viable alternative…
Everybody’s rights get sacrificed I don’t care if you are associated with the telcoms, the government, whatever…
The payment would be like a tempting treat to lure you and the rest of us to the slaughterhouse…
It would not be worth it….
Blast from the past. Funny guys, aren’t they?
Thanks Christy
Everyday. They have various names like analyst, researcher, discovery researcher, etc. These people need to get a life. Read real literature.
Repeating what I wrote to McJoan on the same subject:
I was a witness in a CoIntelPro case. The CIA paid informants to gather domestic info (illegal at the time). The informants only got paid if the info was ‘useful’. The informants had every impetus to gussie up info in order to get paid.
I later became a computer programmer, and learned to make the computers print out actual lies (by manipulating stats). I was very young, naive, if not stupid. Upper management believed everything that was printed out, because they had not grown up with computers, and did not understand how output could be perverted.
Today computers can be made to tell lies just as easily as ever. From accounting (think Enron) to finance (think sub-prime mortgages), to I’ll bet, these social networking driftnets.
It is the secrecy that is the killer. There are no controls, no safeguards, no redress for improprieties. Think how the FBI abused the secret letters. Multiply that by billions.
Now we know about two types of abuse: social driftnet and the trapdoors (per EFF whistleblowers). How many more might there be? Congress can not responsibly vote on FISA until they know exactly what they are voting on. Personally, I think we might be being fed bits and pieces to make us think that we know and understand exactly what they are doing, and can therefore vote for immunity. I say there should be no immunity. Ever.
Post Script: We need to get the records of the White House social network to augment the missing emails - no?
Farce book
Perhaps Mr. Murdoch has been talked to about the need for him to toe the line and was given a tiny, itsy-bitsy peek at some of the product, and Mr. Murdoch and Mr. Murdoch is telling Little Georgie and The Big Dick to pound sand…
o/t
Waxman Calls for Investigations of Blackwater Tax Dodge
having some trouble with links - it’s on the front page over at tpm muck
and of course, my standing apologies if prev. posted
or maybe Jello is smart enough to hang on to damning information until some time closer to November?
Nah, I don’t think so either, but hope springs eternal…
The utter, absolute and complete contempt for Congress and the Law by this administration is staggering! Congress told ‘em NO on Total Information Awareness, and they did it anyway (and still are).
And see Bush’s latest signing statement about opening first-class mail too, without warrant!!! Is there no end?
Most appalling are the simpering “Democrat” fools in the House and Senate who go along with this, bury their heads in the sand and cave to the “Fear-Factor.”
Zuchinni, falahfel, Zuchinni, tahini….(decode that NSA!)
I think that WSJ was fed info for the story so that Congress would think that there would be no need for the legal discovery process and that Congress could then go ahead and vote for immunity. I hope that the opposite happens.
OT..
link
Oh well I was hopeing for a woman..MSNBC is still the boys club.
I think at times even those people with stature and credibility get stymied, which is a perfect example of what we’re up against. I can’t believe that incompetents like Bush and his crew have so stymied the best of our minds! It’s mind-boggling the damage these %$?*@ have done, and how they’ve done it!
Have we publicly questioned Obama on this subject? How about in-depth interviews of Obama with someone like Bill Moyers, and maybe including Bruce Fein to show that we’re not alone in this? Some Repugs also still believe in civil liberties. Can anyone else think of some new attention getting action?
In the meanwhile, Blue Texan has a whole new topic up for discussion upstairs.
I’m doing a panel on this and other issues regarding unilateral executive power grabs at Take Back America next week — with Rep. Conyers and a professor at Georgetown named David Cole. And I’m hoping to get time to discuss this more in depth with Chariman Conyers after the panel as well. So that’s one thing, I suppose…
I kinda think they couldn’t pry Rachel Maddow out of Air America’s evening drive time, though she is available by the time KO comes on.
I know if I was running Air America, I wouldn’t let her go, either.
please give conyers hell. he talks a good line - but every action i’ve seen has been the opposite of his words.
We have a number of things to talk about if I get the chance. And I plan on talking about them during the panel discussion as well — you can bet on that.
So…what companies develope these spying capabilities…the hardware, software, etc.???
Be careful what you wish for. You just got Andrea Mitchell.
Elbow to elbow with Conyers, eh?
I’m impressed! (But that’s nothing new!)
Dear Mr. Waxman:
Thank you, and go get ‘em!
There are, however, a few issues raised by this lady named Sibel Edmonds, and they are HUGE, and very much need to be looked at.
Now, goddammit!
Thank you Sir, for your service and diligence.
Yours truly,…
Yes!
good luck!
I’m a little nervous, to tell you the truth. They are thinking about adding a fourth person, but no word on whether that will happen or not and, if so, who it might be. I’m typically overpreparing my notes for it, because I cannot help myself… *g*
Yes, good luck with it! Congrats, as I presume you were invited to do it. Is it a public panel? Can we watch it? Can you tell us anymore about it?
You are going to be great!
It is a public panel, and I think they have put up a lot of the panels in the past. Here’s a link to the conference website — maybe there is some good info there.
I love it!
Gregory reminds me of oatmeal only mushier.
Gregory lost any semblance of credibility when he played along with that “MC Rove” crap a couple of years ago.
You are going to do fine. Every time I’ve seen you, you’ve been great.
and don’t forget to ask for a polka-dotted pony while you are at it!!
after all their capitulations since taking over Congress in 2006, they know this when the faxes and letters come in from Left Netrootsia: there will be no consequences of disregarding this plea like all the others, for the Axiom of Automatic Support for the Least Worst is as strong as ever, and there is no 3rd party threat to speak of.
don’t the futility muscles get tired after so much exercise?
Oh, I think an administration that feels free to convert the Department of Justice into the ethics-free prosecutorial arm of the Republican Party wouldn’t hesitate to resurrect the never really defunct TIA, lavish funds on it, copy data streams with it and use them for oppo research or to enrich corporate profits.
This is Nixon’s Big Lie strategem written in letters a mile high. The game seems to be to enlarge the wolf pack to the size of a herd of buffalo. Then no number of Democratic “mounties” can catch them all, or the big ones. Meanwhile, the mounties will have to put out fires all over camp, re-dig the wells and latrines, rebuild the cabins and wagons, and re-negotiate with all the locals whose friends and relatives the departing knaves have scalped for eight years. No number of capable mounties could accomplish that in four or eight years. Bush’s debt load alone will take more than a decade to repay.
The Republican Party has converted Norquist’s magic formula for ascendancy from starve the beast to starve America, but be sure to make a profit from it. Just for giggles, let’s watch what it costs in dollars and political capital to reverse a single stream of outsourced contracts. Take your pick.
They are giving the show to the wrong “David” at that channel.
Shuster did excellent work until his recent unfortunate comment.
As most of us know who frequent this place, he was particularly good during the Libby trial.
Did you happen to notice his absence from the last primary discussions? I missed him, as he was no where in sight. I’m wondering if he’s seeking employment elsewhere at this point!
The MSM’s self-serving meme is that isn’t really happening, and if it were, it would be uncomforting to publicize it, especially since half the “balanced” coverage would be GOP’ers denying it. This conveniently lets the MSM off the hook for any participation in making all that happen, especially the failure of accountability part. Makes those barbecues on the Vineyard so much more gemuetlich, hein?
I believe the “justification” they seek to use for mining through ALL the email traffic (at least) is that email is a unique thing. You can log in to email at the yahoo mail interface from ANYWHERE and use the interface here in the US from a US server and send email to another person who could be ANYWHERE using their own Yahoo or Gmail or MSN mail web interface… You can sign up for a free email with a name totally divorced from your real name.
I have about a half dozen emails setup. Two of them are absolutely anonymous and cannot be traced to me in any way, shape, or form (eat that shitheads at NSA/FBI!), not even through the IP traffic logs at the providers. Poor babies, must give them fits. I especially like to encrypt nonsense messages and send them from one account to another just to produce untraceable, undecipherable noise to f*ck with the bastards…but I digress. They are trying to argue that email (and to a certain extent, cell phones) are “different” and totally untied to location/nation/nationality and so the only way they can get any information out of it is to suck it ALL up and find the juicy stuff inside the mess.
This, of course, is rife for abuse and WILL be abused. This sort of sniffing ALWAYS is abused by those at the controls. They can’t help it and cannot prevent it. Power seeks to increase power (and wealth) so they WILL and DO misuse the information to try to weaken political opponents (of their agency, the current partisan government, various other vested interests) so regardless of any original “good” intent, it cannot be good in practice because IT NEVER IS. It NEVER stays within the original intent or within the original bounds.
The NSA is sucking up everything because they cannot understand or accept that liberty and freedom is hard and has (totally acceptable) costs associated with it. They suck up everything because out of a bazillion benign spams for penis enlargement or colon cleansing or for refinancing your house, there is one message in the bazillions that hints at someone having an ill intent on freedom and liberty…so they need to destroy freedom and liberty in order to save freedom and liberty. Understand?
No need for nervousness. You will easily be one of the most competent and real people on the panel. Zeus knows that not a single politician involved (including Conyers) will be genuine or competent at anything but shaking hands and lying to people’s face with absolute sincerity.
Simply accept and understand that you (ahem…) crap bigger than any of the political weasels involved and you will be fine.
I share your frustration on the limited tools avialable. Christy’s admonition to keep bringing the light of day to this issue has me thinking that it may be time to point out where the physical taps are.
From Wired’s 2006 article, we learned that there are multiple nodes where it is most likely the hoovers are in place. I say find the addresses and stand on a corner and ask the public question, “Who is violating our 4th Amendment rights?”
I know I’m late for the party here, and deep into EPU-land, but I’m hoping some will find this link helpful:
Bob in HI