From the looks of the math, neither Obama nor Clinton will be able to win the Democratic nomination solely with pledged delegates won during the primaries and caucuses. Both will need superdelegate support to win, and that prospect has folks on all sides foaming at the mouth. "What about the will of the voters?" is the cry.
There’s just one problem: What does "the will of the voters" mean?
Consider the possibilities. Should a superdelegate support the person who carried their district? Maybe the candidate who won the majority of their state’s pledged delegation, or whoever got the most popular votes in that state. Those who think in national terms might look to the national leader in pledged delegates, or perhaps the national popular vote leader. Maybe they’ll look to the candidate who won the most states, or the candidate with the best recent polling numbers. (Oh, but which poll?) . . .
You get the idea. The "will of the voters" can be a slippery thing.
Since both candidates will need superdelegate support to win, says Eleanor Clift, we come to tinfoil hat country:
The decision will then fall to the superdelegates, elected officials and party people often demonized in the media as hacks or backroom operators. A majority of them will swing behind one or the other candidate—likely Hillary Clinton—boosting her over the top even if she lags behind Barack Obama in the pledged delegate count.
And they will do this dastardly deed behind closed doors, in the electronic equivalent of the smoke-filled room, plotting over cell phones and making their decision based on implied favors and self-interest. This is the nightmare scenario. The good news for Democrats is that the excitement of two historic candidates generated hundreds of thousands of new voters; the bad news is half of them won’t show up in November.
So what’s a poor superdelegate to do?
Clift goes on to note that the superdelegates might simply punt.
What happens if the superdelegates are just like the rest of the voters—i.e., they can’t definitively decide between these two candidates? "What happens if they split the superdelegates?" asks an adviser to the Clinton campaign. The roughly 350 superdelegates who have not yet endorsed are all free agents. There’s nothing that says they have to act in concert, and they’ll work to avoid anything that fuels conspiracy theories. "My real worry is there is no back room," says this adviser. Clinton says she’ll go all the way to the convention in August. If there’s a stalemate, the superdelegates could decide to pass on the first ballot to test the candidates’ strength at that juncture. We could then be way back to the future, the first time in the modern reform age that a candidate is not chosen on the first ballot.
That unnamed adviser, and the dozens of others thinking similar thoughts in both campaigns, might have it exactly wrong. Instead of this being a worry, it may just be the answer to the problem.
The thought of 350 superdelegates working in concert to avoid anointing a nominee on the first ballot may just be the solution to handing the post-nomination discussions over to the Aluminum Association. The superdelegates could decide to vote for neither Obama nor Clinton on the first ballot, and return the decision to the entire convention, thus eliminating Clift’s nightmare scenario. Now everyone’s vote is up for grabs on the subsequent balloting — either to choose one of the two, or look for someone else.
If I were a superdelegate, I’d be as concerned with the process as much as the outcome. In this case, having an open debate on the convention floor might be one way out of the hole that the two campaigns seem intent on digging. Would it be messy? Sure, and it likely would take more than a couple ballots to resolve — but it would be a lot cleaner than the appearance of a few superdelegates scheming to choose the nominee prior to the convention.
And I’d love to hear speaker after speaker getting up in front of the convention, telling us exactly why McCain and the GOP need to get tossed out of DC as they make their cases for their favorite candidates — especially since not having a "presumptive nominee" will guarantee wall to wall media coverage of the whole event.
(h/t aquadhere for the photo of the glamorous tinfoil headgear that every superdelegate will be fighting to wear)
Related posts:
- George Will Shills for Senatorial Candidate Who Blames Nation’s Economic Problems on “Poor People”
- Benedict’s Challenging Words to Congress and the World: Aid the Poor
- Election 2009: What Happened in Virginia?
- GOP Fearmongering Succeeds in Casting Doubt on Legitimacy of the Electoral Process
- A Public Option in the Democratic Platform?





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The Supers better get behind the candidate that has accumulated the most earned delegates. If they go against the overall winner, they will be telling the people that all the caucuses and primaries were just an entertaining exercise. The Democratic Party will see a mass exodus of all the new young voters, the Independents and many Party faithful that are just plain fed up with Democratic leadership. Why have an election, if when someone wins, a bunch of people can get together and overturn the winner. Not only will they loose a huge base of workers and voters, just watch the contributions dry up. How many Congress critters will keep their seats if Democrats sit home out of disgust on election day?
Of all the factors, popular vote arguments worry me the most. Many caucus states do not record or report popular votes. And the 15% caucus viability rule suppresses vote counts.
I’d be happy with super delegates voting for the winner of their state (assuming that’s a clear winner, see Texas), or for super delegates voting for the overall winner of the pledged delegate race.
git ur widget!
Citizen-Driven Superdelegate Transparency Project Provides Best Superdelegate Reporting – Anywhere
Maybe they’ll draft Al Gore.
What is a super-delegate to do? Since HRC has publically and repeatedly endorsed the Republican candidate in the general election should she not get the nod, I say that the super-delegates vote for the only real Democrat left in the race. Seems pretty simple to me.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
While we wait for the superdelegates to make up their minds, and for the remaining primaries and caucuses to be completed, it is essential that Hillary Clinton recognize that John McCain, not Barack Obama, is the enemy. It remains to be seen whether she will do that. Does she want to win the nomination badly enough to alienate enough Obama supporters to cause her to lose the general election?
Hi Peterr, thank you for talking reason and sense. I like your perspective.
I agree Ron…the only fair way for Caucus States would be to amp up their representation levels to that of those States that had primaries.
Wait a second! That’s what delegates are!
Thank you xargaw. that pretty much says it all for me.
My comment was in response to Xargaw.
I rather like the idea of having the superdelegates abstain from the first vote. Ground rules should be the debate should only bash McSame/Bush and flog the good points of the speaker’s chosen candidate. The media would go nuts. The country would get wall to wall reasons why Democrats are more attractive than Republicans. This should give national exposure to some of our candidates for senator/congresscritter that they can ill afford in TV buys.
i just spoke to my friend in Wyoming and if there is anything that I can say about this protracted primary is that it has energized and excited democrats in states that previously didn’t really register on the national scene. I can’t wait until Montana gets its chance
Interesting, Peter. Makes sense.
Here is the PA delegate page.
To you and RonZuber;
Seems to be representative of the voter that it is not winner take all super delegate.
The percetages are published so it would be fair for the S-delegates to divide these according to the percentage represented.
If a candidate got 45% in the state they would be awarded 45% of those S-delegates so no one could steal the election from the voters. There would be no controversy and no mudslinging. For DNC not to have made it clear before this process started seems political gatekeeping ala they will decide the candidate.
The issue of MI and FL looms like another unecessary nasty dem fight the talking heads will be wedging us with.
I think I am missing something want to fill me in along with the rest of America?
There’s an inconsistency in what Eleanor is saying:
Well that would be acting in concert. Super Delegates are individual people. I don’t see them making any kind of unanimous decision.
I would prefer to encourage each Super Delegate to publicly give a reason for their vote, with that reason being logically tied to the voter turnout in their state or in the country.
OT, but amusing.
Kiss My Big Blue Butt reports: GOP Congressman Rick Renzi’s indictment included allegations that Renzi embezzled premiums from his insurance agency’s clients to fund his first congressional campaign, but it didn’t identify the clients other than to indicate that they were nonprofit organizations.
Turns out they were right-to-life organizations.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com…..rprise-you
Wobbly…I think FreddySanFran posted something like that last night. He said that everyone in a State that has already voted suffers from the let down that THEIR State (or set of primaries) didn’t decide things…but that this means more and more Democrats (and cross-overs) get involved in a political process than every before.
If you commit emotion, shoe-leather, money, time volunteering…and think that your vote means something…you have an electorate that is increasingly involved and committed.
Provided that the process is perceived as being generally fair (no backroom machinations) then the voters will likely unite, whatever the acrimony that occurs. If Clinton somehow wins enough to get a majority of the delegates before the Superdelegates weigh in, then she’ll likely win their votes. If Obama does that, then he’ll likely win the majority of Supers. Or at least enough to win the nomination.
Clinton might offer Obama the VP…this would help her in States where the Survey USA Poll shows she is particularly weak. It would help unify the party.
Obama might do the same…but I doubt that Hillary would accept. She may suggest another position (a Cabinet or potential Supreme Court seat down the road). But he could strengthen the ticket by selecting a prominent figure (ideally a woman) from a mid-Atlantic or Plains State…or maybe Texas…as a running mate.
that’s pretty funny
That seems fair.
Whatever happened to the simple life!!! Never mind, we are here. Question one: John Edwards still has delegates so will they make a difference given how close the general delegate count is?
Question two: Could it be possible that 90% of the 50% who come out to vote were all at the primaries/caucuses?
Question three: Will short term thinking to win the nomination at any cost turn out being the price of losing the election? You win the nomination, you alienate voters, you lose the general election to McCain.
Question four: If my favorite doesn’t win the nomination will I cut off my nose to spite my face and a) vote for McCain, 2) vote for Nader (his wildest fantasy), 3) stay home and go fishing. That will show them if they don’t give my guy the win!
true. but i wanted to highlight one of the good things happening as a result of these contests. i get so pissed off with campaign antics that i forget this. but now my friend is irrelevant and soon my peeps in Montana can be irrelevant too :)
My dream. The convention is locked, and they turn to Al Gore or John Edwards. It could happen. Those two guys are still players.
I find that extremely disingenuous, It is true that both candidates have inspired new blocs of voters, but, for the disenfranchised bloc to not vote en masse in November is dead wrong! The nominee will be elected by the extraordinary turnouts reflected in the caucuses/primaries… Shrub has mobilized our base more than Hill/Obama could ever do alone…!
somehow i think it’s actually a little of both
What is the difference primary and caucus in terms of representative vote. Within caucuses you have Rs and Is crossing over to influence the number of votes a candidate gets.
Does that clouds the % as they may vote just to change the candidate selection while really intending to vote in the general for Rs.
It is a strange game.
Between now and the convention, the MSM will align behind HRC more and more. The examples of spurious issues involving Obama will multiply. He is simply not strong enough a supporter of Israel compared to HRC and McCain for the MSM to allow him to be a possible president.
There are crossover voters in primaries as well as in caucuses. It all varies by state.
No doubt.
A big part of the reason that I think that the Supers should support the candidate that has earned the most delegates through the caucuses and primaries is because after the 2000 and 2004 election, there was a great deal of disappointment in this country about the elections and disenfranchised voters. The integrity of our system has been so abused by dirty politics that if the will of the people is overturned by a small group of Supers who choose for us “just because they have the power,” it will be another nail in the coffin of our democracy. Already, we have nearly half the nation that doesn’t vote because they don’t think their vote matters. Overturning the will of the primary/caucus voters would validate that feeling and turn off even more potential DEM voters in Nov.
I would categorize that as a negligible influence on the %’s, I agree that the overall turnout numbers in November will be down from the Primary #’s, which would reflect some of the miffed voters and any crossover votes…
AL and John…really like them. That would be in your face to all that stumped for HRC and BO. No way democratic. Sorry Charlie no cigar.
The final result must be Obama or Clinton. It can’t be anyone else, like Gore or Edwards. That would be very undemocratic.
I wonder about this too.
The people I’ve heard say they were Republicans and voting in the Democratic primary make me wonder just how much support either candidate has in certain states. No way of knowing, but I do wonder.
Problem. Right now Senator Clinton may be energizing her base and the GOP, but she is shattering the overall Democratic Party Base with her style of campaigning. Obama supporters are more alienated from Clinton by the hour. Does she really think that all will be forgiven and Obama supporters will rally round her if she pulls this off. I think she will be sorely disappointed from what I have been reading and what I am hearing in my own community in WA. There is a huge and growing ‘anybody but Hillary” sentiment here among Democrats.
Edwards still has 26 delegates so we may end up with a little influence no matter which one of the remaining bad choices we end up with.
In addition (says nomolos repeating his recent theories) if they powers that be do decide to have do overs in MI and FL they will have to print ballots. Including Edwards’ name on that ballot makes absolute sense. The MI primary and FL primary were held prior to his suspension of his race. The people of those two states should have the right to have the same names on the ballot now as there were on the ballot then.
Were all candidates campaigning in those two states it may well be reasonable to assume that Edwards would have done rather well in MI as well as FL. His (increased) delegate count may well have a great deal of bearing on ho will be president come January.
OT–ET, is there a way to donate to Diane Benson online? I was surprised to find that she is not on Blue America…
Hard to argue with much of that, but, as my wife and I have stated, we’ll vote for whomever is the Dem nominee…
Now, if we can keep Homeland Security from closing down denver, “for our safety from trrrists”
Knife fights R us.
A dose of reality. To be neutral, lets say that the rest of the pledged delegates are split 50/50. This is unlikely given Obama’s strength in the don’t-matter states, but just for arguments sake let’s assume it. As things currently stand on Slate’s delegate counter, this means that Obama will need 347 supers to reach 2025. He currently has 210, so will need 137 more. Hillary, on the other hand will need 489 supers to reach 2025. She has 242 currently, meaning she will need 247 additional. At the moment the total number of superdelegates, 795, less that aligned to both sides, 210+242=452, meaning only 343 are up for grabs. Obama needs only 40% of the remaining supers, while Clinton must take 72% of the remaining supers.
Now, lets also say for arguments sake that the 50 supers of the Congressional Black Caucus finally take the stand for Obama that they have been hinting at, and that could be necessary for their future political survival, quite frankly. That puts Obama to a point of needing only 87 additional, or 30%, and puts Clinton in the position of having to pull in 84% of the remaining supers.
While Obama may have a difficult run in Pennsylvania, most analyses show that this will not affect future races. The 50/50 split is fairly generous to the Clinton campaign, IMHO. So there you have it.
The possibility of holding new contests in Michigan and Florida could help clear things up. Given that 40% of Michigan chose Uncommitted instead of Clinton, it looks like Obama would win here by some margin, or at least hold his own. He would likely be able to hold at least 45% of Florida, which makes it a wash. Once again the math holds up.
Clinton must begin to win the remaining contests at an average of 60/40 splits to start getting close.
How a vast majority of these superdelegates would choose to make their runs in November more difficult with Clinton at the top of the ticket is a mystery.
Yes, they could. They may be committed to him on the first ballot (unless he releases them). If neither candidate has an absolute majority of total delegates after the first ballot, they are released. These “free agents” can thus vote for whomever they wish. Edwards can make a recommendation, but he can’t compel allegience. He can only hold them to vote for HIM on the first ballot.
Could you rephrase that? Are you asking if the vast majority of those that vote in a General Election voted in the Primaries? I think it was high…but nowhere near 90% of a normal turnout.
The Republican turnout was generally dismal. In fact, in some states that allowed cross over, more Republicans voted for a Democratic candidate than the winning Republican candidate. Almost 20% of the votes cast in SOME Democratic Primaries were Republicans/Independents. That’s stunning, given that voters turned out 2:1 for the Democratic Primaries/Caucuses in most States. BTW those were in early Primaries where there was a competitive Republican race, so one has to think that the cross-overs were not happy with any of their choices in the Republican race. And almost no independents were voting in the Republican Primaries.
I think that the Democratic turnout vs. the general election would be hard to estimate since there are so many caucuses. One could do this State-by-State where there were primaries, I suppose. But caucuses will have nowhere near the numbers of people that would vote in a general election in the same State.
Maybe. I’d say it would make it more likely.
But I’ve heard some rationalizing this as saying that “fighting back” shows that one really cares about winning…and that McCain and the Republicans will throw stuff at you and you’ll have to be the better “street fighter”.
Maybe…I’m not sure it’s easy to estimate the number of “spoiled babies” in a particular campaign. There is a difference between those who do (a) vs. those that do (2,3) though. Spite gives the Republican a vote, as well as takes one away from the candidate. Petulance only removes a vote from both candidates possible tally sheets. This could still have an impact, but not as much as a shifting vote.
I’d also point out that your Q.3 could have an impact on how (and how many of) those you refer to in Q4. react.
If following rules is so important (see obama supporters complaints about florida and michigan), why do they want to change the rules when it comes to superdelegates? They, according to the rules, can vote however they please. Can someone give me a rational explanation as to why it is unfair to seat FL and MI delegates, but superdelegates must vote in a particular way that is beneficial to Obama? Rules are rules folks. THis whole process has been stacked in Obama’s favor from the beginning. Caucus’ are undemocratic as proven by Texas (again, an explanation how clinton won the popular vote yet lost the caucus?). You don’t hear the Clinton supporters whining when things don’t go their way. Obama supporters dutifully regurgitate talking points from on high to suit their needs at the moment. I have said before, and will say again Obama will lose handily if he ignores the votes of millions of democrats in fl and mi. And those of you hand wringing about losing the new young and independent voters….take a look at the numbers, they are up across the board, this is not obamaphenomenon, everyone is just sick of republicans. When Obama supporters suggest record numbers of young people remember there are record numbers of voters of all ages, percentage wise, those young voters make up the same proportion as always. Finally Obama needs the support of base democrats (older voters, blue collar voters, women) and his supporters will only end up alienating them with their in your face thuggery.
1,780 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen RobZuber:
“…It can’t be anyone else like Gore or Edwards. That would be undemocratic.”
In a word: nonsense! If the nomination goes to the floor, the delegates released and other candidates advanced from the floor with coalitions organized ON THE FLOOR between groups of delegates…well, dear, it doesn’t get more democratic’n THAT!!
But it ain’t goin’ there ‘cuz, in the end, the argument that wins the day on the FIRST ballot will be “who ken beat Mc Crazy” and that’s Obama, Gore or Edwards. Virtually everyone that gets a vote from among the super delegates are “elected” by specific constituencies in general elections and they’re all Democrats so there’s absolutely NUTHIN’ undemocratic about givin’ ‘em a vote and lettin’ ‘em participate on the floor – but NOT in the backroom. This is the healthiest thing that ken happen to the Democratic Party, and IMO to Barak Obama…any problem in democratic politics ken be solved by MORE DEMOCRACY!!
KEEP THE FAITH, THE LONGER IT GOES THE MORE ATTENTION DEMOCRACY GETS!!
i won’t hold my breath. terra has been their fallback plan when everything else fails
Hillary and Obama are pretty even in their supporters so when Democrats espouse anybody but Hillary, they are shutting out half their fellow Democrats. The message is “my way or the highway”. Sorry, that is typical teenybopper mentality.
Also, I don’t hear anyone saying that. Just because it seems the whole country feels a certain way is usually nothing more than a reflection of our own small circle of people just-like-me. Obviously, the huge numbers voting for Hillary are committed supporters just as are the Obama supporters.
glad you decided to stick around
I think we can say both sides have had theor share of over zealous supporters and run the risk of alienating groups that are needed to win the GE.
I have a Hillary sticker on my car, and stopped at a light this morning next to someone with an Obama sticker. We looked at each other and gave each other thumbs up and smiles. I don’t think there will be a lack of support for whomever wins the nomination.
It was really cool!
it could come down to a one vote victory. would the “losing” side be willing to accept that? what is democracy anyway? just how good is democracy if the “losers” are real losers and sabotage the general by staying at home or continue to badmouth the candidate and give them halfhearted support?
i would love for the super delegates to wait out the first round and then vote however the chips fall. what’s the point in having super delegates if they are just following a demographic?
FWIW, at this time, the FL and MI delegate counts are not included in the required 2025 needed of 4049.
If at some point those state delegates are re-included in the mix, then the totals needed will be adjusted accordingly.
I wore my “Democrats are SEXY! Whoever heard of a great piece of elephant?” t-shirt to the garden center today and got a bunch of thumbs up and chuckles from fellow dems even with the Obama sticker on the car. I agree, we will be alright.
The probabilities of a victory of less than 100 for Obama is a very unlikely probability, unless his campaign collapses entirely, which is just as unlikely.
1,780 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen EdwardTeller:
“Between now and the convention, the MSM will align more and more behind HRC…”
Absolutely right! But this nomination is NOT gunna be determined by the corporate media, it’s gunna be determined by good old fashioned grunt ORGANIZATION and coalition buildin’…and that’s not a strength of Mrs. Clinton and she doesn’t want A*PAC anywhere near the floor of the convention if it gets that far. No, this nomination process, as long as it stays outta the backrooms of the boardrooms will be right in front of God and everyone…good old fashioned grassroots democracy at it’s best!!
P.S. “Late Night” last night has a great UTube posted of Robert Johnson, the tune is incredibly timely for politics right now but the music…well ya might get some ideas Ed.
KEEP THE FAITH ALL WE NEED TO SOLVE THIS MESS IS MORE DEMOCRACY!!!
Superdelegates should vote in a way that doesn’t harm the party. Of course it’s within the rules for every single one of them to vote for Senator Clinton. No one is saying it isn’t. But what would that say to all the people who went to vote, if Senator Obama had received more pledged delegates?
suits me. i hope he does win by a hundred, but i think that people who act like they’ve got it all figured out are in for a surprise
Speaking of dutifully regurgitating talking points, can you cite any source that says Obama supporters are trying to change the rules to require superdelegates to vote a certain way?
They aren’t. They’re using it as an argument to convince superdelegates to support their candidate, and the Clinton campaign is using their own arguments to convince superdelegates to support their candidate. All of this is within the rules. Superdelegates decide how they’re going to vote, and other people try to convince them.
And I have to say, declaring “You don’t hear the Clinton supporters whining when things don’t go their way” just after you’ve complained about caucuses and asserted that the whole process has been stacked in favor of Obama is a little less than convincing.
If this goes to convention, we’re going to get President McCain.
The convention is Aug. 25-28th. The GE is on Nov. 4th. That means we would have less than ten weeks for the Party to re-coalesce. Not to mention the organizational, fundraising, and messaging challenges we would face.
Plus what happens all summer? The acrimony between the two groups will rise to astronomical levels. And we risk losing many Congressional seats by alienating core constituencies.
Anyway, if the candidates drag this out to the Convention, I’m going to sit 2008 out. Why reward selfish, childish and destructive behavior?
The delusion of catching up in the delegate count, either with or without supers, must be dealt with. The only way it can happen is by the vast majority of supers to ignore the will of the people. And believe me, the independents, left-leaning Republicans, and young people brought into the party by Obama will not be with us in November. The only outcome that they might accept is a true loss by Obama in the pledged delegate count. Which would infer landslide victories by Clinton in every remaining contest.
Great point Redshift…ya beat me to it!
Not exclusively true.
This happens in Open Primaries as well. In California we had an Open Primary that allowed either Republicans and Independents to vote. Some States require that the person sign an affidavit of “party choice”, but they never check that against the registration to see if they don’t match.
Other States allow one to re-register right at the table before voting. Technically it’s a closed Primary…but in reality not very!
And Caucuses vary, too. Some only allow Registered Democrats, others are open. Some caucuses require people to actually get in groups and discuss their choices and why. Others you simple drop off your ballot and leave, or stick around for the business part of the caucus. In smaller states many people know most of those caucusing. Some argue that caucuses, by requiring more of a committment, and more personal interaction, draw fewer “stealth” voters than an open Primary would.
And remember that if there was a Republican Primary on the same date, one had to make a choice. Many of those that crossed over were truly disappointed with the selections in the Republican Primary (despite their diversity). They have, in a sense, become Democrats in all but Registration. They may have registered Republican to follow their “family tradition” or because they were in awe of Ronald Reagan (so-called “Reagan Republicans”).
The logic of allowing people outside the Party to vote for nominees is that once they take this initial step they will be more likely to vote Democratic in the General and subsequent elections. It’s like getting someone to switch from Coffee to Tea. Once people actually “jump the broom” they find it wasn’t so bad, if not downright exhilirating (Wow! Look at the Enthusiasm and turnout!) and may return again and again.
Besides, no Democratic candidate can win in November without the votes of Independents (or some cross-over Republicans). It can’t be done. So allowing some imput from them might be a useful indicator of which candidates they prefer, and which they utterly reject.
I really doubt that. The Democratic turnout has been extraordinary for a primary, but primaries still get way less turnout than a general election. There are lots of people who don’t pay attention enough or don’t bother to vote in primaries but still reliably vote in presidential elections. Even if some people are miffed and stay home, I think we’ll have record turnout in November, and even if not, still way higher than in the primaries.
Great shirt!
In GA we don’t declare a party. I guess to some my vote shouldn’t count.
Yep. The only firm difference between a caucus and a primary is that a primary is run (and paid for) by the state, and a caucus is run by the party.
Given that Obama will only need 343/795 or 44% of the total superdelegates, or 133/353 or 38% of the remaining neutral superdelegates, as it stands now in a 50/50 split of the remaining pledged delegates, it is exactly the way to play it. He doesnt need a huge majority of them as Clinton does. A majority that just seems to grow as time goes on. The remaining supers would have to decide en masse to risk everything for Clinton.
To save America as we have known it since before George Bush? Cuz if McCain wins, it’s all over.
So long for today. I must get out of here and take six pounder out for a walk and a spin. If I don’t get the cupboards refilled, I’ll turn into Old Mother Hubbard.
I took my wife to the VA hospital on Wednesday – we were sitting in the waiting room as McCain was getting endorsed by Bush. She warned me before entering the hospital to keep my mouth shut if anyone was talking politics.
There were five other people in the room with us. One couple was not paying attention, although the wife glanced up once in a while, and didn’t seem impressed when she did. Two left as soon as the conference was done, it appeared they had stayed just to watch their CinC talk. The final one was reading a book, but looked up off and on to snicker at what was being said, we shared a smile and nod.
If you can find only two people out of seven that are willing to go out of their way to listen to Bush/McCain in a VA Hospital and the rest are either tired of hearing them talk, or opposed to them…
BTW, in listening to people talk about the election in the mess hall, Obama had the support of most of the staffers there.
Sorry, but going to a new candidate at the convention would be the most obvious way of breaking the party apart. Telling not just either Obama’s OR Clinton’s supporters that he/she lost, but BOTH candidate’s supporters? Seems like the biggest disenfranchisement possible. It may have worked in the old days, but the politics of that move seem incredibly self-destructive to the future of the party.
Same in Virginia. The fact is, while there’s always concern and anecdotal evidence of crossovers trying to screw with a primary or caucus, it’s really hard to get large numbers of people to participate in a dirty trick. (Heck, it’s hard just to get people to vote in their own party primary.)
Unless there’s serious evidence (from exit polls or whatever) of attempted interference, speculating that a significant portion of crossovers are trying to do harm rather than sincerely support a candidate just undermines the party’s chances, whoever is nominated.
The only problem I have with talking about Supers voting “the way their district went” is that not all of them are tied to a district. DNC, former public officials, and a handful of others don’t have “a district” to follow per se.
There are two of these people that I know. One has endorsed Obama months ago. The other has said that they are more focused on growing the party and working with candidates than worrying about talking to the candidates themselves.
And no, I have no news about the young guy that is a Super from WI. No one I talked to knows much about him other than what was in the news.
I see your position. In addition, I think that there will be increasing pressure on those African-American Congresspersons (and Superdelegates) who have ALREADY endorsed Clinton to switch their votes if she doesn’t win the committed delegates. It would be hell to pay for them to vote antagonistic to the voters in their Congressional District…there would be a lot of “Donna Edwards” situations down the road.
I also think that the Superdelegates will strongly consider which of the two candidates will run a more “national campaign” and assist in getting them, or their collegaues, elected. If the candidates strengths are merely in a bloc of already Blue Turf then they are unlikely to assist getting new Democrats elected to Congress to increase their numbers. If however, the candidate is able to potentially battle it out in States like Texas and Virginia, Iowa and Colorado, then that ahs down-ticket benefits.
Then candidate will be making regular visits to Districts in contention, thus helping fundraising and the local campaigns. But if the State is solidly red under the other matchup, then don’t expect any visits, or any shared campaign moneys.
The just released Survey USA poll shows that Obama is far more likely to have a successful national campaign and longer coattails…and likely generate more “new Voters” for the Democrats in those areas.
That would have to be a factor in the decisionmaking of any Superdelegate.
TYVM for your reply. I will admit to going door-to-door for the campaign, and believe me, it’s like selling sno-cones in hell.
Superdelegates should come out NOW and endorse one of the two candidates. If they are honest and above board, they will endorse the one they believe is the best next President of the United States. Then allow the rest of the states who have not yet voted have their say. After Puerto Rico’s vote whom ever has the most delegates after that is the nominee.
I think it is cowardly not to come forward and let the voters know who they support. Chris Dodd supporting Obama is important to me. Who Edwards supports is important, who Al Gore supports is important, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, each one as leaders, should lead, lending their voice to this competition now, not later when it would appear to be a back room deal.
Don’t forget the Unpledged Add-On Delegates. They are currently being counted as superdelegates, but they are more or less pledged to a particular candidate:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme…..-the-u.php
Speaking of delegates….tomorrow is the first meeting of the delegates who signed up to be one on February 10th. I signed up and can’t wait to get the process rolling. It’s my understanding it’s not an easy process, but I will find out better tomorrow. ;-)
ack, tweety is on my teevee
Of course they can. They also have to face the consequences of their votes, by their own electorates, or by the voters in the Fall. One of the arguments that is being made to them to consider is the consequences of voting antagonistic to the delegate count. It’s something they must seriously weigh if they are to do something otherwise. If they have a superlative rationale for voting opposite to the elected delegates then they should. But supporting the results of all the primaries and caucuses would also seem VERY important. Otherwise why have them?
I’m sure those consequences will be a part of their decisionmaking process. They can look at the USA Survey poll, for example, and decide that Obama will be better for the Party’s success in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Alaska, Hawaii, North Dakota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Texas, South Dakota, and Delaware…while pretty much winning all the States that she would also win.
Or which one will get the most electoral delegates vis-a-vis McCain.
Or will exhaust his Treasury by forcing him to campaign defensively in the “Red States” rather than the Blue States he can’t win.
Or they can decide on which candidate is going to generate more new Democratic registrants and turnout. Or which candidate might act as a “lightning rod” to the opposition parties supporters and get them to turn out in mobs.
They broke the rules by voting out of order. Aren’t following rules “rationale”? In both cases the National Party disaccredited that election…meaning many voters didn’t even bother to vote, there was no campaigning, and in the case of Michigan most of the candidates, including Obama weren’t even on the ballot. You are saying this is FAIR? They can have a re-vote and seat those new delegations. In fact, given that a new election might be more meaningful, and Hillary has supposedly stanched Obamas “mojo” maybe she would do better. If she’s so popular in those States she could gain more delegates, or at least duplicate her results (if they were fair). What’s she afraid of doing a legitimate election?
That’s a contradictory statement, and a bit absurd. Obama would have been an insignificant delegate back in 2004 (if that) when the 4000 odd members of the Convention adopted these rules. The Clintons (and their DLC supporters) have had far greater impact on the rules composition. They pretty much made them, so to argue they were stacked to favor OBAMA is just absurd. He saw what was needed, and adopted a campaign strategy that made use of what the States and National Party had established.
Obama wins Wyoming caucuses
Obama 58 percent
Clinton 41 percent
91 percent counted
Is it me or does tucker carlson always look like someone is kicking him in the nads?
Most superdelegates will break but some may hold out.It will be hardball and lets make a deal with John Edwards holding some cards here as well, but if it is close in Pennsylvania and Obama blows her out in North Carolina then it could be over- Edwards phone will be ringing- if he goes Hillary which is against everything he has stood for it may be with a VP promise. Richardson is playing it cute as well- an early endorsement from him would have helped in Texas but he has now lost leverage.If all else failss the Al get your white horse.
Breaking news: Obama more or less says he won’t accept VP nomination!
:)
6 1/2 weeks until PA and it’s going to get real nasty
http://blogs.abcnews.com/polit…..-wont.html
True, I stand corrected… It’ll be a Democratic Tsunami in November… Hopefully, they’ll anticipate it and have enough ballots available in each precinct! BTW, I just received my Stimulus letter from the IRS…! ;-)
pinched off, repressed little closet case probably keeps a rubberband or ponytail tie wrapped around ‘em.
Obama 59 percent
Clinton 40 percent
96 percent counted
What’s the poll on Mississippi?
I haven’t seen any polls, just heard speculation that Obama will win
I heard that as well, I was just hoping that folks had some hard numbers
I would like to see some. The Pundits on MSNBC are pretty much babbling about nothing, it would be nice if they would give us that information.
mr wobbs says they have a severe case of diarrhea of the mouth
Well, now they are talking about Pennsylvania. I have not heard a word about Mississippi, but maybe I wasn’t listening.
Hi Texas Ellen,
I’m a neighbor of yours. Would it be possible to do a meet up sometime? TEXBetsy has my email address.
Sure would like to meet some like minded people. I’m in Killeen.
No, they just aren’t talking about it. Guess it is already irrelevant? (snark) My guess would be that they will start talking about it Monday (since the contest is on Tuesday)
CNN, was reporting 7,500+ ballots were cast in Wyoming and 59% Obama and 40% Hill… Now, for some strange reason the Goopers seem to have not reported any numbers on actual turnout… Hmmm…
Wyoming Rs caucus was back in early Feb I believe. Willard won.
Well of course, trying to convince a “free Superdelegate” to vote in a manner that is irrelevant wouldn’t work. But I think about half the Superdelegates are current Representatives and Senators. That means that they will be under at least some pressure to vote as their Constitutents voted…especially if the vote was decisively large. If the delegate counts come even closer this may become an even bigger pressure. I believe that Dianne Waters of Compton has already pledged to Clinton. But her district went something like 9:1 for Obama. I would bet that Dianne wouldn’t be re-elected if her vote contributed to a Clinton victory when he actually led in the committed delegate votes. She might actually go to Clinton and say…”Look, I’m sorry, I endorsed you…but I’m in trouble here”. BTW…Superdelegates merely announce their support…they aren’t really “committed”. They can, and do, change.
Many of the Superdelegates are also elected or former elected officials. I believe that all living former Congressmen are Superdelegates, as are all former Presidents and VPs, Party Chairmen, Democratic Governors, etc. A former Congressman or Senator might also be approached to support the results of their former district or State. Or they might be approached to support the candidate that would do the best for candidates in that area.
Let’s say that a particular former Congressman in Virginia came from an area that voted for Hillary, but it’s unlikely that Hillary will visit the State since under most calculations she’d lose the State easily to McCain. Obama however is tied in Virginia with McCain, and would visit it alot, put on lots of advertising, and likely support get out the vote efforts. That would benefit a candidate in that District trying, in a close race, to defeat an incumbent Republican. Even worse, Hillary at the top of the Ticket might drag out the Neanderthals from their caves down to the polls.
So he might look at his choices and decide for Obama.
I know that, bra, but, I’m telling ya, try and find the actual voter turnout #’s… I spent more than the obligatory 5 min’s on Google and elsewhere…!
Probably cuz it’s all OBE now
It is amusing that the State Party doesn’t report them… Heh, maybe their abysmal turnout #’s were too embarassing, so early in the primary season…! *g*
slightly OT:
more here
*sigh* boutique states? It’s because of the lattes, isn’t it?
If this all were to happen at the convention, all the Obama supporters new to politics would sure learn a lot about democracy. So would the rest of the world.
Add the developing anti-Hillary Dems to the throngs of Anti-Hillary Republicans and Independents and well. I believe she could lose the general.
Where is Edwards when we need him. I know he could win the general and keep the supreme court safe.
The only democrat left in the race is Clinton. Obama has already made up his mind and stated he would appoint Republicans to his cabinet. this election was to get the republicans out of offices not to install them in offices.