Jerome Armstrong goes a little meta on the ways the blogosphere has adjusted to this rather unique presidential primary season, and because I have no sense, and because Jane asked me to, I'm going to use his post to share a few of my own impressions. So here goes:
Jerome is essentially right that there are really no meaningful policy differences to be divined between our two candidates, and Samantha Powers' comments now about Obama's likelihood of revising his withdrawal plans if elected serve simply to remind us that the tea leaves people are currently reading during the campaign re: policy really mean nothing. If Obama were a true anti-occupation believer, he could have jumped full guns behind Lamont when he had the chance instead of ducking and running through the state and pulling the plug on his participation in a Lamont multi-platform ad buy.
So, we have no progressive candidate. We have no Wellstone, no Feingold, no ideologically based movement person. My question is this: which of these candidates is more likely to reveal an inner Lieberman of some form once in power? I don't have an answer. People can believe what they choose to believe, but both candidates have Liebermanish historical tendencies and both propel narratives reminiscent of Lieberman, the earlier years.
So, it then has to be explained why the netroots has tended to ignore what I take to be this fundamental reality. I think many, though not all, people are doing some combination of projecting their hopes about one candidate or the other onto the candidate with whom they most personally identify, bloggers in some cases getting mau maued by very engaged partisan commenters who flock to threads, browbeat and seek to intimidate, wielding accusations of various forms of bad faith and character smear, etc. The blogosphere has tended, de facto, to divide itself among sites that lean toward one candidate or another and commenters (1% of our readers, but the most engaged and vocal ones) allocate themselves accordingly.
It so happens that, once Edwards dropped out, more of the online readership sorted itself to Obama. Now, I can't see any meaningful policy reasons for having done so (and Edwards hasn't endorsed), so to me it seems more like a consolidation of the anti-Clinton movement among tech literate activists than it seems like anything about any ideologically or policy based progressive agenda. Moreover, judging by the comments I read, the emails I see and the comments I hear when I talk to people, it's pretty common to hear something like the sentiment, if not the outright expression, that "the bitch must be stopped!" This is among self-identified liberals, progressives.
I conclude from this that the hundreds of millions of dollars at least that have poured into branding Hillary Clinton - whose policies in general I hardly care for - as a lesbo cunning corrupt cold calculating bitch, have altogether not been without their effect on many online activists and readers in particular. I include in this the very many newer readers coming to our sites who have become politically engaged primarily as Obama partisans, the people who have not had as much opportunity to deconstruct the misogyny of right wing narratives pervading national political discourse since time immemorial, and certainly since the rise of feminism. These people tend to outnumber the Clinton partisans, at least online, where Obama's stronger pull among independents, younger people and the technoliterati makes a difference.
As a result, there's a bit more of a traffic niche to be taken for a site that leans toward Obama. One only need look at the recommended diaries at DailyKos (Obama talking point and Clinton oppo dump central) to see this in action. Still, there's a counterniche to be filled among the Clinton loyalists. And then there's Firedoglake, which sustains its unaligned position, pissing everyone off, although the core analysis of the site's approach is based on a sense that, as I mentioned earlier, there is no clear "Never Become Lieberman-ish Candidate" in the race.
So, in my very personal and not claimed to be The Truth view, I think there have been subtle pressures or incentives for bloggers to line up more toward one side or another, on either end of the spectrum, though I don't believe the people I know who have lined up one way or another have done so intentionally for these reasons. But at least, if you tend to side with one or another, by God, at least somebody likes you, and it's not a lot of fun blogging when no matter what you write, you're in the crosshairs of some very vocal readers, day after day, post after post. Bloggers are, in fact, human, and I think we can all admit that part of why we do this is for sheer pleasure: we find it pleasing, and we like to feel connected to our audiences.
I think all these things have tended to combine to move the blogosphere away from its previous role more akin to behavior as a referee on the process and on the narratives propelled by anyone claiming a Dem label, and toward more of a partisan candidate sorting. I see a lot of right wingy talking points coming from either side over the course of this campaign, to the detriment of any sustainable progressive movement, but I don't see a lot of people calling out both sides. More bloggers than readers do, but readers, or should I specify, commenters? Very many, and the most passionate ones, are not holding their own side accountable. At all. And they're working us like they're working the refs in a sporting event.
The ultimate question I will have for supporters of either candidate during these days of pie fights will be, whoever gets power, what will you hold your winning candidate accountable for once in office, assuming s/he wins? If your winner gets some accountability fire from people who once supported your opponent, will you simply defend your winner, or will you join in for merited criticism?
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Hi Pach
Heya! Happy Saturday.
I’ll take Obama. At least he doesn’t seem to kiss McCain’s butt. And he’s not a team leader of the DLC.
Then I think the question Pach is asking is, what will you do to hold your candidate accountable?
Random off-topic ad hominim attacks on his opponent aren’t going to get you there.
I can say one thing. If McCain wins in November, the Democratic Party will lose at least two members. Me and my lady.
Thanks. I was looking for a good shorthanded way to explain to my brother why I am not happy/trusting of Hillary & Obama. “Remember Lieberman” does sum it up.
Gee. Thanks sooo much for setting me straight.
Pachacutec!
With little “policy” differences the only advantage Obi is that he seems to exciting more new voters and this can mean some longer coat tails if the pull dem levers down the line.
One could argue that Hill is more the old “experienced” or the same old crap and nothing to get excited about except that she is a woman and that is no more and advantage than being a “black”… neither have been at the top of the heap yet.
Hill seems more prone to corruption of money and seems intent on proving she has balls and we don’t need a pres who needs to prove they have balls.
For me it’s all a negative decision tree and it leads to Obi.
We need a more progressive congress which is not in the grip of lobbyists and corporations.
Exactly. Seems we cannot even get the Dems in Congress to uphold the constitution. So how are we going to get the next president who has all sorts of unitary executive powers to account? Should we just pick the one we think we can trust more? I am afraid benevolent despots are few and far between.
I have to say, it does worry me that Obama might bring Lieberman into his Cabinet. With Hillary, though, I know it’s a given.
Having been a John Edwards fan, I would suggest that Obama should select Governor Dean as his running mate.
Okay, I going to take a lot of grief for this, but my rationale is the following:
1. Dean can bring forth the resources, financial and manpower to focus on the 10 Senate seats currently available and put them irreversibly into the Democratic column. This effort that I deem a “supplemental” will go a long ways to assuring that any Obama Agenda will make it through the Senate.
2. When it comes to “policy” this policy is always a moving target given the wealth of advocates for ‘change’. Now, Obama is not a Progressive,far from it, but ‘pushing’ him in that direction can be accomplished and I believe quite easily. That makes folks like Senator Feingold even more invaluable. Consequently, my concern regarding the ‘down-ticket’.
3. Senator Clinton will not focus much if any time and resources on these 10 Senate seats. Perhaps, I could be mis-reading her history, but I seriously doubt it.
Just a thought from the Sonoran Desert.
Jaango
We can’t hold them accountable.
But perhaps a lot of progressive dems can be elected and have more than a whisper at the table.
It’s got to be a bottom up thing. We have seen that top down doesn’t serve the people.
((((((((Pachacutec!)))))))
Digg this post!
I firmly fit into HRC demographic voter and it was a real toss up after Edwards dropped out…. I was working in his campaign here in AZ but it has been what has been coming out of the HRC campaign that has moved me more and more to the Obama camp.
Also I am a strong supporter of Howard Dean and his 50 state strategy. That very strategy is what is helping Obama now. HRC represents the old 18 state methodology that made sure we lost elections. If she is elected Prez, Howard Dean will be gone from the DNC and so will that strategy. Since AZ has benefited so much by it, finally now becoming a swing state and just might turn more blue this year.
It is what I see, read and hear that just turns me totally off. I can see myself working myself to near death to get Obama elected but not so much for HRC.
The Murdoch fund raiser for HRC was the end for me. Mark Penn didnt help. Obama was not my first choice, but I resent there is misogyny in my distaste for Hillary. I have equal disdain for Bill. The are both old fashion main street republicans.
Right on, Katymine.
Holding them accountable? Just what do you suppose would accomplish that in this fascist state
I weighed the pros and cons of both candidates– and there were lots of each for both of them– and cast my vote for Obama. When it coems to the general election, though, I am casting a vote against John McBush. My expectations for either Hillary or Obama are low in terms of a cohesive progressive agenda. I don’t see either as a groundbreaking leader– although, ironically, each embodies incredible symbolic progressive triumph. In my mind, everything is dwarfed by the prospect of a third Bush term.
Dude, Pach, you are SO beyond me. You know what I want? I want someone who will actually support and defend the Constitution. I want someone who will appoint SANE people to the Supreme Court. I want someone who will de-politicize the judiciary.
Pie-in-the-sky dreams about Campaign Finance Reform or even withdrawal from Iraq? Forget it. Right now all I care about is keeping the framework of our nation intact.
If we can get the nation back to a place where a law, once passed by Congress and signed by the Executive, is actually a law, I’ll be satisfied. If the new Executive does not petulantly issue a “signing statement” with every bill, I’ll consider that a victory. If I can see Gitmo emptied, and if I can see our presence in Iraq reduced from street patrols to individual military bases, I’ll consider that progress.
I WANT all those progressive things, but they were always a dream, and always will be a dream while the corporations control Congress, and while the Democratic leadership remains beholden to military contractors.
I prefer Obama over Clinton, but I don’t have any dreams that Obama is some kind of Populist Progressive. Frankly, I pretty much prefer Obama to Clinton because I don’t want to listen to eight more years of the same Right Wing Propaganda that I had to listen to in the Nineties. I’d rather replace Vince Foster with Rezko, just for the novelty.
But I’ll vote for whichever candidate is selected, not because they engage my ideals, but because I’m seriously concerned that a McCain Presidency might be the last one of the United States. Assuming we make it to the elections at all, and martial law is not invoked to keep
BushCheney in power. I think America is THAT close to the end.First we have to restore the Rule of Law. Then we have to work on Campaign Finance Reform and other steps to get the Corporations out of Congress. THEN we can worry about progressive issues.
I’ve bolded my last paragraph in the post, in the perhaps vain hope someone will actually engage the questions.
To continue the madness, I see Hillary continuing the sealing of:
Reagan/George H.W. Bush’s records
Bill Clinton’s records
Her records
George Bush/Dick Cheney’s records
See? She is more of the same. The same kinds of coverups, the same kind of madness, and the same kind of division and irresponsibility we’ve come to despise.
Jeeze Pach, Lieberman so early in the morning?
BLECH.
We know that Short ride mentored Obama, that’s a given.
We also are well aware of Hillary’ past, another given.
I have already made my mind up who I’m voting for, for my own reasons but lets set that aside for a minute.
Hillary is right about one thing, she does have a lot of experience, especially with the vitriol and back stabbing from the Repukes.
That is one thing that really concerns me about Obama.
Certainly, so far, he ha been cool under fire from the rather weak attempts to drag him into the mud but can he deal with the full force of the Mighty Wurlitzer and the media in a concerted effort?
So far, they have been casting about willy nilly, looking for something to stick. When they do, they are going to go for the jugular.
Can he stand up to that without folding like a cheap suit is what I want to know.
Pach, The last few days watching Hillary campaign for McCain or stating on 60 minutes that “as far as she knows” Obama is not a Muslim have been gut wrenching. Living in conservative country, when approached with comments about how dirty the Clintons fight, I stood up for them. Obama and Clinton have differences with how to approach foreign policy that should be discussed. IMO we have failed in our policy towards Cuba. Sometimes you vote not only on issues but on who you trust to follow through with those issues.
Obama or Nader?
Nader agrees that it’s most important to have the perfect progressive at the head of the ticket, and that there’s too little difference between the more mainstream Democratic candidates.
That was stupid in 2000 and it’s more stupid now.
I think Obama and Hillary are both decent human beings with good wishes for the country and the future. Both have more conservative advisers than I’d wish. But Obama has a wider circle that includes more of the people I would support — his foreign policy advisory circle includes over 40 people, in small groups for each area of the world.
I support Obama now (sure, I would have preferred Feingold or Edwards, but that ain’t on the agenda). And I will vote for any Democrat who heads the ticket.
PS Don’t get scammed by the MSM story that Obama is all talk and no action. There’s a Kos Diary talking about a Clinton supporter who googled all of Obama’s and Clinton’s bills and actions, and Obama came out ahead in terms of brave actions and passed bills!
I think I understand the writer of this post’s point. Ad hominem? What can I say? It’s my style.
As long as CT has a republican governor, it will not be in a Democratic President’s best interest to have him leave his Senate seat.
Howie,
You are a great guy and have done so much for progressives. Thanks so much. You and the lake gals are real great citizens of this country. Pach and the boy lakers as well!
Answer to your question: If my candidate (Obama) wins, hell yes. I will hold his feet to the fire. Every single time.
But I disagree with you that the two Dem contenders are pretty much alike. There are 2 big differences:
1. Hillary voted for the war — with both Iraq and, more recently, Iran. Many whine that Obama was not in the US Senate at that time, so what he was against doesn’t count. Uh, yes it does. Hillary messed up big time — and what’s more she has never really admitted it.
2. Hillary’s actions the past 3 weeks have been horrid. I am sick to damn death of hearing, “If Obama can’t take THIS, how will he stand the GOP campaign?” Apples and oranges. We all expect the GOP to lie, insult, lie, insult, lie. I do not expect the Democrats to.
And when Hillary began REALLY acting like a Republican, in spades, the past 3 weeks, that was the deal breaker.
Again, I don’t see Obama as a liberal. But, so far, he has been decent. I can’t say the same for Hillary.
as someone who spent almost 8 months with no toobz - this was my initial impression upon my return - a little taken aback to say the least - but very relieved not to see it in our front pagers
as to your question on accountability - yes, I have decided on a candidate but it is my intent to keep my foot on all of their necks - no stars in this dfh’s eyes - one only has to go as far back as 1/07 to realize it’s all about the accountability !
Oh, Thats what we are talking about, sorry.
I will be happy to debate anyone, and I mean anyone on the merits of Obama or Clinton.
I have no patience for Naderism.
Indeed hill has made some despicable comments in this campaign, aside from any baggage she carries about the AMUF and flag burning votes. Those comments are real reasons not to vote for her.
Why does it always come down to picking the least of a bunch of bad choices?
Maybe we can get him to leave the country instead? I’d love that. ;-)
If enough progressives are elected in November to the Senate, then ole Joe will pretty much become insignificant, well that is, unless Hillary is president and makes him AG or something. *plugging nose*
I conclude from this that the hundreds of millions of dollars at least that have poured into branding Hillary Clinton - whose policies in general I hardly care for - as a lesbo cunning corrupt cold calculating bitch, have altogether not been without their effect on many online activists and readers in particular.
Seems to me that this conclusion has been leapt to.
It could easily be that the DK crowd, for example, has internalized the distaste for the DLC that is the core of Crashing the Gate.
It could easily be that, like people offline I know, that they don’t want to go through four or eight more years of the Clintons and the press.
It could easily be that they hate Mark Penn, and do not trust politicians who hire him.
It could easily be that given Obama’s saying he was opposed to the invasion, versus Clinton who voted for it, that they lean that way.
It could easily be, as with Bowers, that a candidate who is looking forward to young people committed to diversity rather than backward to taking one more crack at the Reagan democrats.
It could easily be that they see Obama committed to a 50 state strategy, while they see Clinton looking, one more time, at targeting three states.
It could easily be, which is how I am looking at it, that Obama does look at some issues, like proliferation, with what seems to be a fresh eye.
I don’t feel really strongly about this, because it seems pretty clear that Obama has internalize the Beltway establishment. But to assign that motive to people seems unnecessarily insulting and, frankly, feeding the divisiveness.
Oh Pach, I don’t believe I can do ANYTHING to hold my candidate accountable once they’re in office. If I can’t get Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to even consider impeaching Monkey Boy, what the heck can I do if Clinton or Obama disappoint me… vote Republican?
Maybe nobody is answering your last paragraph, because the question just fills everyone with despair. Accountability? What’s my enforcement mechanism, letters to the editor? Blog entries?
Pach I must be reading the wrong post. Did you change the title to “why your candidate sucks?”
I like much of what Nadar says, but this electoral system cannot support his tactics.
But how does HE can his anti corporate message out?
“Accountability means what I say it means, neither more nor less. That’s why I use it all the time in my speeches, and why I can truthfully say that my government has been more accountable to its supporters and my people than any before it. Amen.”
– The Red Queen
That’s what really frustrates me– if we can’t elect a progressive now, when?
I think a big problem is that the so-called “cross-overs” are picking our candidate, and frankly they both suck.
How can we change this? Can we change the mechanics of the Rat party? Create a new party? We have to do something, because neither Hillary or Obama is worth the fake plastic they’re molded from.
Neither do I. And the point is?
I just read a note on HuffPo that Rove has joined mcCain’s camapaign
I don’t think I owe blind allegiance to my candidate. But whether I defend my candidate or not against attacks depends on what those attacks are and whether they are honest or smear or even important. I think I will do the same if my NOT candidate gets elected. But holding their feet to the fire is the really really frustrating part. We have very little power to do much I am afraid.
I don’t support Nadar. I support Obama.
Here’s the linky:
http://www.politico.com/news/s...../8911.html
That is the 64 Million dollar question…. how do we hold any politician accountable?
By not leaving it alone….. paying attention, sending the emails, letters, letters to the editor, phone calls and never letting up AND when it is time to vote……. if they haven’t listened to the people, primary them, do a Lamont and try to get them out.
I know that everyone gets discouraged, it seems that in the last 7 years I must of sent a million emails, faxes, phone calls and the crap still happens but Democracy is a participatory NOT a spectator sport.
Tag your it….. and my DFA group line is “Voting is not enough”
Dear Kiddo Abby,
I am one who is not liking the idea of Hillary on the ticket in November and can’t even think of voting for her at this point (I may write in Kucinich’s name instead). I’m told if I don’t vote for her, then McCain wins and I’m told that if Obama is on the ticket, then the Hillarybots won’t vote for him and McCain wins.
What do we do? I don’t want my vote to be used against me in the future when Hillary takes our nation to war in Iraq after “hearing all the evidence” against the country!
Signed,
Confused in Maine
LOL
This is a very troubling question.
When can a progressive actually get to the top of the ticket? What conditions will cause this to happen?
I agree with you about the policy difference (I’ve often said that their differences on healthcare don’t rise above the level of “noise” compared to changes that will happen once it enters the legislative process), and my strongest reasons for getting behind Obama these days actually relate to the strength of the progressive movement and how much influence it’s likely to have. Basically, from what I saw on the ground here in Virginia and have read about and heard about anecdotally elsewhere, the Obama campaign’s strength is built on grassroots organizing, and being very good at integrating with volunteer efforts that arose without much direction from campaign staff. The Clinton campaign has more followed their classic model from the 90’s of courting big donors and relying on the “big state” network where they have the support of high-level Democratic officials. (I felt for the Clinton supporters I know here during the primary, who seemed to be going through the same treatment we got from Kerry in ‘04 — begging them to do something with us, or support our volunteer effort, and not getting much of anything.)
I don’t think Obama will be the great savior, and he’s not as progressive as I’d like, but I do think he’ll be much more beholden to grassroots activists, and I think his strategy is building a network that will allow us to have more influence on Congressional candidates. I, for one, certainly intend to use that influence at both levels to push for more progressive policies and to complain if I don’t get them.
I have to agree with katymine.
Since the PA primary is now a prize, I’m going to drive a short distance over the bridge when I can and help Philly go big for Obama. I have no illusions about him. I did vote for him after Edwards dropped out. I surprised myself by doing so. I did realize that along the way I lost some of my idealism, and with the way he’s been inspiring new and young people to get involved, it influenced my decision greatly.
I don’t much feel as if I have a candidate of the heart these days - there’s one campaign that I find myself offended by more often, but that’s not the same thing.
Now, about that accountability question - I hate to say this, but I think to some extent we’d have to rely on congressional pressure and midterm threats, which is to say I don’t think we’d be able to force too much. There’s money, I suppose.
I am afraid that - fervent? - nature of some of the online support has thrown away some of our ability to translate support into influence, which is a shame, particularly since so much of that support seems to be thinly-veiled hostility against the other candidate.
And he works at Newsweek too? Conflict of interest? I think so.
We can’t hold them accountable. WE CAN’T EVEN GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE.
Elected officials don’t talk to constituents. They talk to lobbyists.
That may very well be, but the mass of the netroots folks moved en masse from Edwards to Obama, to the exclusion of Clinton, before3 all that stuff went down. Obama’s record is hardly unalloyed, applying the same standards people apply to Clinton, unless one’s methodology includes the preferential picking of evidence for one’s case, pro or con.
Offline, Clinton is winning substantial support, and not, as Jerome points out, just from Archie Bunker so-called Reagan Democrats. Her base is among women and latinos.
I loathe Mark Penn as much as anyone, and I defy anyone to google anything I’ve written and suggest I’ve been favorable to Clintonian politics, ever. But online, the dynamic is pretty anti-Clinton, and most of the arguments and standards I see routinely applied to her to justify that stance can be applied just as effectively to make a case against Obama, in my view.
what will you hold your winning candidate accountable for once in office, assuming s/he wins?
One of the difficulties involved with the presidency is that there is pretty much no way to hold the winner accountable. He or she will be nominated for the next term. This is one reason candidates can get away with making promises they are all but certain not keep, like withdrawing from Iraq.
If your winner gets some accountability fire from people who once supported your opponent, will you simply defend your winner, or will you join in for merited criticism?
How is this either meaningless or uselessly provocative? Yes, Pach, of course I will join in for merited criticism. And so say we all.
Let’s begin by debating Iraq, the DLC, the 3:00 Am ad. And go from there.
And you can bet your life I plan on holding a possible President Obama to accountability. And if he screws up, I want him to be a one-termer. Got that?
Don’t vote FOR Hilary. Vote for four Supreme Court justices. Vote for Roe v. Wade. Vote for de-politicizing the Judiciary. Vote for closing Gitmo. Vote for the Rule of Law.
You don’t have to vote for Hilary, but voting for the Republican nominee or issuing a protest vote means you’re not voting for some of the basic things you believe in. So don’t vote for Hilary (or Obama for those in a vice-versa situation). Don’t vote for the candidate.
Vote for what you stand to lose if McCain wins.
Holding a candidate accountable in the next year.
What a concept.
I for one, am still waiting for a concrete statement from either one of them as to what they have in mind for the first one hundred days in office.
Has anyone else heard something I missed?
Whoever wins ,if it is indeed a Dem, is going to be busier that a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.
There are thousands of things in this country that are fucked up, pick one.
As to holding them accountable, I am going to have the same pair of pliers and hammer that I have been using on Bush.
No one at this point is getting a free ride.
Vain Hope?
Now, that’s a great handle, blog name, book title, bumper sticker…
I’m worried sometimes that we might be so exhausted by next year that we will forget that we are the people. And, we have to keep their agenda on track.
Great post, Pach. Especially the last paragraph. Let’s copy/past to where ever we need to as an important reminder.
Somewhat apropos: Citizen-Driven Superdelegate Transparency Project Provides Best Superdelegate Reporting - Anywhere
Given that my personal preferences were; 1 Kucinich 2 Edwards and later on 3 Dodd, either Clinton Or Obama will be my 4th choice. Dancing with joy I ain’t but support the nominee I will. Both candidates give off a slight odor of Republican-Lite. Not the worst scent in the world (that would be bat-sh*t crazy wing-nut)but not one I care for. The only advantage I see to either, and I’m mostly wrong at predictions, is that the people that have been drawn into the process by Obama are more likely to opt out of the general if Clinton is the nominee than Clinton supporters are if Obama is it.
Pach has nailed it. Neither Obama nor Hillary are progressives. Each is different from the other, but they occupy the same spot on the political spectrum. One of them will be president. More importantly, most of the Congresscritters now in office will return, with a few Donna Edwards sprinkled in.
Progressives have a double fight ahead of them, really a war of attrition. Voting as many Goopers and Bush Dogs out and as many progressives in as possible. Then keeping the pot on the boil. Long enough to encourage Congress to stand up for itself and convince a president to give up powers that Bush will have done his darndest to set in stone.
I don’t care which candidate has “momentum”. I care more about the inertia they’ll overcome when in office.
As utterly distasteful as I find Hillary Clinton, if this individual is the nominee of my party come this November, I will vote in her direction.
Hill’s real enthusiastic support is from women and maybe latinos.
I don’t know why the latter and I suspect that is soft.
Gender is not a reason to vote for a person. Especially when they don’t act with the attributes of that gender! hahhaha
I know what you’re saying. Honestly, I do. But the way I’m seeing a vote for Hillary is the same kind of vote the neocons did for George Bush in 2004, meaning, they knew exactly what he had done and what he stood for, but yet, through everything aside and voted for him anyways.
This is the basis of my internal struggle right now.
this is such a key question - maybe THE key question (at least imo)
all we have to do is look at the last election to see this very human response in action (i struggle with this too) to want our candidates to be honorable people trying to do right.
it has been so hard for us to acknowledge how really craven and corrupt our own party leaders are - but i think the experience of the 110th congress has confirmed it. and yet, how often when they fuck up do we want to make excuses for them? to give them the benefit of the doubt even against all available evidence?
imo, the best preparation we can give ourselves for holding the winners of the 2008 election accountable is to practice that now on the winners of the 2006 election. it’s not always easy but at least we were all on the same side (mostly) for the 2006 election. if we can’t do it now, we’re in trouble. because it’s just going to get more difficult.
When Obama was at YearlyKos I tried to ask him how we could be more effective in holding our elected representatives more accountable. I referenced his diaries to us wherein he asked us to be more “respectful”.
I asked him to considering coming back with another diary telling us how to be effective. He nodded.
And to be fair we were in a fast moving handshake line. But I would still love to hear his response.
I haven’t read a single policy statement or press conference transcript, or watched a single campaign commercial. I haven’t watched or listened to a single speech. I only follow the blogs to watch the shifting sentiments, not for information on the candidates. I don’t NEED more information on the candidates, and I think all the armchair quarterbacking is frigging madness. The country needs EXTREME CHANGE. Of the people in the race with a chance of winning, Obama is the most different.
P-E-R-I-O-D.
As for “enforcement mechanisms,” bah! LIVE YOUR DAMN LIVES THE WAY YOU WANT TO AND CREATE THE CHANGE YOU WANT! Neither Obama, Clinton, or McCain have anything to do with your individual gifts or opening the window to your souls.
But I haven’t seen those grass roots activists stand for a lot more than destroying Clinton. Honestly, sometimes it seems like the “politics of hope” is morphing among a small but intense group into the politics of “I hope you fucking die” toward any who are not Obama partisans.
So, since so many of these folks are newer to politics, I still don’t see what they would hold Obama accountable for, and I don’t see them holding him accountable to anything from a policy perspective during the primary, which is in fact the time when one has the most leverage.
Was that meant as a a response to another comment? because if it was an opening statement, it definitely could have been framed in a less confrontational way, jmo.
Simple answer: Democratic senate nets six seats if Obama wins rather than Hillary. If you want a progressive leader, you’ll need more than a president.
Thank you, Pach. I hope commenters remember your observations.
Politics turns into a strange game in which everyone must line up to root for one side or the other. This becomes their home team and they can do no wrong even when they do nasty wrongs. The referee favors the other side and gives our guys too harsh a penalty. With this win - lose mentality it is easy to forget the purpose of choosing a candidate and that is on policies, advisers, and the people he/she will appoint in key roles.
I’ve stated this many times that it makes no difference to me which Democrat gets the nomination, I will have the same amount of work in holding their feet to the fire. There is no going away and leaving the candidate to his/her own devices because if I’m not actively influencing them someone else is - like corporations and NeoCons whispering in their ear.
I voted in my caucus weeks ago. I made my decision at that time. I could see the trend so it was a strategic decision. I voted for Edwards to give him delegates and some power to influence. He hasn’t disappointed me. He has not backed either candidate and is letting the people vote their choice without his influence. I appreciate that.
In summary, I have the same amount of work and activism regardless if Obama or Hillary wins.
It may come down to the only way to get this critters to listen is to clog their phones and faxes so that they lobbyists can’t make lunch dates.
I’m wondering if sending flowers with a note that says, “Please convict the war criminals in the White House. A fruit basket to follow if you do.”, would help in getting them to listen to us and is respectful enough?
What is your point?
I don’t know how to answer Pach’s question– how can we hold the president accountable? Yeah, I’ll attack either one who get’s elected if he/she acts too centrist, but what good will it do?
Like everyone else here I favored Edwards and I had to pick the lesser of two evils. And my choice was largely governed by emotional resons: I hate centrists. I don’t just dislike them, I hate their guts.
I realize Hillary is also a centrist, but she hasn’t praised Reagan. That was what tipped me over the edge. I went ballistic when he praised Benedict Ronald. If he doesn’t say anything like that again I think I can hold my nose and vote for him.
The problem is that they really haven’t left us any good choices. It’s any Democrat or habeus corpus is gone for good and voting/civil rights will be joining them soon, along with a few million folks in Africa and the middle east.
I don’t see what else we can do.
Pach,
We hold them accountable the same way we are trying to fight back against the Bush administration. We contact our elected officials about important issues and often. We support organizations that lobby them in the direction we desire. We vote for or against folks that don’t go in the direction we want. We make sure as many folks as we can are registered to vote and push them to vote. We keep up a constant, intelligent, and thoughtful dialog with our neighbors through letters to the editor and posts on widely viewed (supposedly non-partisan) on-line news sources. And, in my case as a moderate to conservative Democrat, I do something I don’t like to do, which is vote straight party ticket. I’m not impressed with Obama and worried about Clinton, especially Bill’s role in things, but it doesn’t matter, I will vote for them in November. The last thing I want as a president is someone that used to have principals, but now in the words of one of my sister-service classmates, is a b*tt-snorkeler.
I think I get this. Quit attacking Democrats. Go after Kiddo.
Why are we doing this?
My lady and our company has left for a horseback ride. I’m supposed to join them in about an hour down by the river. But this is fun.
That just made my day. Seriously.
I don’t understand how anyone can watch how these two campaigns have conducted themselves and conclude there’s little difference between them. Obama has consistently been attacking McCain’t since St. John took the lead, and now we have Hillary saying McStain would protect us better than Obama would. More fear-mongering…
Our choice is clear.
As far as being able to hold them accountable, perhaps Obama’s innovative Technology Plan would help, since it makes government more transparent than ever before…by far.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/art....._democracy
Of course, this could all be lies, and we should continue parsing the words of an unpaid adviser.
Nader is about as progressive as the American Enterprise Institute. He is for Ralph. To hell with Democracy and the people. He uses the same tactics of fearmongering as they do with the corporations and lobbyists as the big bad boggieman instead of the terrorists and national security. Fear. Fear. Fear.
My point is that your comment read like a response to something but it wasn’t clear to me what it was a response to.
about Obama’s likelihood of revising his withdrawal plans if elected
Samantha Powers made a perfectly appropriate and responsible comment about how the newly elected President should consider his plans once he gets into office. That’s called living within the reality based universe. The Clinton campaign is using this as a smear, and I’m disappointed to see it repeated here.
Neither is a progressive. We will have to fight whichever one wins.
But Senator Clinton is now explicitly using right-wing and Republican framing to attack Obama and praise McCain. It’s repulsive and disgusting. It is also standard DLC operating procedure (refer back to the Harold Ford Jr. campaign).
The choice has come down to one candidate who keeps the DLC at arms-length and another who is a DLC member that openly embraces their techniques.
Now that I have gotten over the nausea of early morning Liebermanosis,
One thing I will be VERY interested in is just exactly where the traitorous little bastard does fit in with either candidates plans.
Short ride has gotta go.
Yes, we need to hold Kiddo accountable for leaving his lady and company alone and not following his promise to meet them in an hour!
The ultimate question I will have for supporters of either candidate during these days of pie fights will be, whoever gets power, what will you hold your winning candidate accountable for once in office, assuming s/he wins? If your winner gets some accountability fire from people who once supported your opponent, will you simply defend your winner, or will you join in for merited criticism?
Great post and a great question, Pach.
I’m so glad yo opened this door for constuctive discussions.
Hope both candidates’ supporters accept the invitation to share constructive answers here.
Kiddo — are you male or female? You are cracking me up.
Does it matter?
Didn’t Obama sponsor legislation to make earmarks more transparent?
That is a little tiny start. But transparency has to be part of what changes.
If we can’t see what is going on, then we don’t know what to hold anyone accountable for.
I don’t think either candidate is perfect, but I think it will be more difficult for Obama to be pushing this populist campaign and then get all secretive. He has definitely set the bar higher than Clinton has. And I expect if he gets elected, he will want to get re-elected.
Two separate questions here, one that I’ve asked, and one that has come up to the effect of deflecting the discussion from my original question:
1) To what are people willing to hold their candidate accountable, should they gain power?
2) How does one go about holding a president accountable?
I didn’t ask the second question, and I’m still listening for answers to the first, not only here, but across the netroots and throughout this primary campaign.