ZED

In this 1996 article from John Nichols of “The Progressive”. He found that Clintons court appointees were just as conservative as Nixon and Ford’s appointees. Link Do we want more of this?

BT!

No one likes importunate assholes who repeat themselves on this site, but…Hillary is campaigning for McCain because she’s the war candidate. She’s not playing to the electorate with this stuff, she’s playing to the press and everyone in the establishment with money to give who wants to keep the war going.

How do I express my exasperation with those who don’t see a difference between Obama and Clinton, as if the AUMF were just “one vote” (as if Kyl-Lieberman didn’t count as a second). You vote for Clinton and you’re voting for war.

Because she lost the nomination already and is trying to take the party
down with her… she, like all neocons, is ultimately a self destructive
enabler, too young to be where she is going and too old to go back again.

Ugh!

She’s beginning go get on my nerves.

Dang. Think of the bigger prize, Hill! You’re not the IT girl.

We all have work to do.

Having to slap Hill’s hand in the cookie jar is too much.

Agreed, BT. Cut it OUT, Hillary!

I know several federal judges who were Clinton appointees — and I can tell you from personal experience with them that is not an accurate assessment of the ones I know. Especially when compared to the judicial records of both Roberts and Alito thus far….HUGE difference in judicial temperament and reasoning. HUGE.

So, YMMV, but I’d suggest talking with more lawyers who have been in the trenches and asking them what their experience has been between recent appointments and prior ones…

Call me crazy, but generally speaking, it’s a good campaign tactic is to draw contrasts between yourself and the other side…

Um, it’s not really a stretch to say that she IS on the other side. And that ain’t poo fly pie.

And I think it’s imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold,” the New York senator told reporters crowded into an infant’s bedroom-sized hotel conference room in Washington.

“I believe that I’ve done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you’ll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy,” she said.

Perhaps someone should remind Mrs. Machiavelli that her husband was a draft dodger with very little foreign affairs experience, but he became President. What really gets me is that, didn’t Bill campaign as the man from Hope? Wasn’t that exactly what he offered that got him elected?

I’ve heard of keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But a big, wet verbal kiss on the mouth to her general election opponent goes way too far for me. As far as “Knock it off, Hillary,” goes, you can’t unring a bell.

Calling her a “neocon” is closer to the truth than viewing these repeated endorsements of McCain as mere tactical shortsightedness. But you’re wrong: she’s trying to win the nomination with this endorsement of the war.

Christy,
Can you pick up the red phone and have a little chat with Hill, please? She needs a different advisor. Thanks much!

T-

Please don’t tell me that we’re going to be treated to a photo of St. McCain draping himself over Hillary Clinton anytime soon. After all, look how his little cuddle with Bush helped him…

Please.
-S

Comparing Clinton with Nixon and Ford appointees won’t tell you nearly as much as comparing anyone with Bush. John Paul Stevens was a Ford appointee, for instance.

if hillary really wants to overcome obama she’s going to have to start attacking the president, the third term president and then she can do something that might well get her the prize;

she can guarantee she will prosecute ANY officials who broke our law, whether under the guise of their false national security, their guise of “signing statements” and mostly, if they deliberately decieved us into war

that will guarantee for the women her candidacy

I live in a lily-white burg of OH, & I guess it’s imperative that I jump the gun and get cussed out by the township trustees for joining all the others putting up their Obama signs (too early, according to the local kingpinhead) – to match the votes we just gave Obama from our household.

Seriously, Hill. STOP it!

I think it’s Mark Schmitt who says, “If only the tsar knew about this!”.

Why is an “advisor” responsible? Has Clinton recanted her war votes? Isn’t the simplest explanation, that she’s sincere, the most logical one given her career?

Oh yeah, I’m so tight with the ordering presidential messaging around. *G* I’ll just get right on that…

How are things in the T- household these days? Is The Peanut’ future husband doing well?

That’s an excellent point. Hillary is essentially saying the country made a mistake when we picked Bill over HW.

Christy,
Can you pick up the red phone and have a little chat with Hill, please? She needs a different advisor. Thanks much!

I would be amazed if hillary or her staff did not come vist to quench their thirst for the pulse here at the lake of fire and dogs

You know, I don’t think this was Hillary’s best moment. In fact, I don’t think it was very helpful to her campaign or our party. But, I don’t think it can be fairly categorized as ”campaigning for John McCain.”

Like so much of the criticism of Hillary, this is way over the top.

Ah this is making me crazy. I can’t believe she is doing this.

I had finally convinced my Republican husband that it would be ok to vote for her, should she be the nominee. He hates Bush, he’s waiting for the party to come back to him, so he had said NO to McCain and the neocons. But he’s got years of antiHilary propoganda to overcome, and I’d finally gotten him to the point where I had convinced him she wasn’t a selfish, greedy, ambitious, powerhungry, wants-to-be-a-dictator, horrible (something) and it would be ok to vote for her. He was never gonna be a supporter, but he was gonna vote for her.

Then she pulls this garbage. Confirming in his mind everything he previously believed about her. Convincing him that her ambition trumps the good of the nation. Now, he tells me that if Obama is the nominee, he votes for the Democrat. If it’s Hillary, he votes for McCain.

My 20 year old college student daughter who is involved in politics for the first time, proud Obama supporter, feels the same way. If we’re gonna have four more years of Bush, it might as well be with a Republican, she says.

This makes me want to cry. I got them involved. I had them believing. Obama coming to Boise helped, but I had them convinced either one would be better – and she pulled this destructive, demeaning hateful (they see it that way) play into the same old tactics sh*t, and my fragile new participants don’t want to play any longer.

What’s more, she’s convinced me that I was the one in the wrong, and my husband was right. I’ll vote for her, but it will be reluctantly, and I’ll watch the returns in Idaho, where we could pick up both a Senate and House seat, but I believe won’t, if she’s on the ticket, and I’ll cry a little more for my country.

Somebody somewhere needs to convince her to stop. And I’ll tell you what – the monster comment aside, I don’t see Obama trying to destroy the party to ensure his win. I just don’t see it. That makes him the better leader, and the better choice.

Thanks for letting me vent. I had to get that out.

Did I miss the part where she said Obama is not qualified?

The New York Times tells me this morning that March is Optimist Month .
This food fight is ruining my Optimist Month.Foolishness.The momentum to continue this must be reversed.

Exactly, Peterr — the appointees from that era seem like they are from a whole different party from the GOP appointees of today. With Scalia and Bork as the mold from which they choose, it’s a whole different legal mindset these days…

Agreed that just about any moderate would be much better than the extreme Right Wing push that GW has put forth. I think it speaks volumes as to how far right the courts have shifted. I found the article to be intriquing. It was also written in 1996 which would have given Pres. Clinton enough time to make some changes and start appointing more liberals.

I would be amazed if hillary or her staff did not come vist to quench their thirst for the pulse here at the lake of fire and dogs

It would be better if they actually read the words…

Uh, how?

She says, repeatedly that:

1) National security is the key issue
2) John McCain is the most ready of the three remaining candidates to be commander in chief

I don’t see how characterizing this as campaigning for McCain is an exaggeration.

Sophistry. Or, put it colloquially, Kool-Aid.

So when is HRC going to trot out Zell Miller to shout down Obama and the other wicked Democrats, and to say how great the Republicans are?

yeah. i’m still puzzling over how wrong-headed Dodd & Kennedy could possibly be to endorse Obama. Whut were they thinking?!

THIMK! Hill! Read our lips! Greater good is the prize.

It’s not just all about youuuuu Hillary.

HI STRAT!

I miss ya, girlfriend. Hope the book is coming along well!

The math has eliminated any chance of “winning” the nomination. She is
demanding it by trashing the candidate who beat her… As for Neocon,
I mean it in the literal sense, her actions indicate a severe bent to
authoritarian thought and her political associations, especially in
NY and on “national security” are recycled Scoop Jackson types. She has
already lost and is quite boldly attempting to stampede by media assault
a nomination someone else already has.

Ding! and dang. and *&%^$% (self-edited to lighten the mods’ loads)

OT

msnbc just informed the world that McBush and his mentor ate hot dogs at their luncheon the other day at the WH…

makes sense.

Maybe Hillary is trolling for the coveted Joe Lieberman second choice endorsement.

I like Scarecrow’s take on this a little better than my own. It’s a form of blackmail:

“Should we conclude that the Clinton campaign believes their best strategy for capturing the nomination is to convince the superdelegates/party leaders they must choose her because she’s prepared to make it impossible for Senator Obama to beat John McCain?”

I like this interpretation because it gets at something important about this campaigning for McCain: she’s appealing to the superdelegates, not Democratic voters.

I enjoy your posts, BT.

I can feel the spunk all the way thru the toobz. ;->

If we’re gonna have four more years of Bush, it might as well be with a Republican, she says.

“Give the people a choice between two Republicans, and they’ll pick the real one every time.” -Harry Truman

Her vote on AUMF has hamstrung her whole campaign. They made the decision early on to stick by her decision to vote for that travesty, to never admit it was a mistake. But at this point I’m almost convinced that she doesn’t think it was a mistake, that she was really for invading Iraq, and she’s all for the neocon agenda.

Classy…isn’t that what he fed the French president as well? Seems to me that Shrub is a creature of habit on the hot dog front…

Uh-oh. Reminding people of Hillary Clinton’s genuine support for this war is “poo flinging”. Or maybe misogyny.

Like so much of the criticism of Hillary, this is way over the top.

Really? Then let’s talk about the politics of personal destruction she’s spent nearly her whole career whining about. Yet it doesn’t stop her from using that tactic when it’s convenient. That’s what being Machiavellian is. In my view, she’s shamelessly trying a scorched earth policy on her own party.

Nothing but first class from the Chimpster – as per normal.

I have read many of your comments and consider them thoughtful and reasonable, but this time, I believe you are wrong. Have you actually seen her make the comment? If so, I don’t know how you can reach any other conclusion than that she is saying that McCain and herself are the only candidates worth consideration, and the other person is not to be taken seriously. How can that be other than a completely self-serving and detrimental to the party? It says, “You should elect me, but otherwise, McCain is the only qualified candidate.”

Ever the Goldwater Girl.

I think the French president got les burgers de cheeze.

With a side of Freedom Fries? *G*

So, we are so worried about the “future” that we’ll let her get away with this shit? What does that tell your children?

Video Link, via TPM

Are you married to my husband?

I’ve been a registered Democrat since ’72, and I’m just about ready to vote for McCain.

Foreign policy is my main concern. Since Hil and John are the same, might as well vote for the person that least grates on my nerves.

I’m also concerned about healthcare reform. But I don’t think Hil can get it passed without 60 votes in the Senate, and I don’t think she’ll bring any down-ticket senators with her, so again, it’s a wash vis a vis McCain.

Where the hell’s Obama?

An Open Letter to Hillary Clinton.

Oldgold, I will happily, proudly, enthusiastically cast my vote for Senator Clinton if she is the nominee. I just don’t like being told that St. McCain is the 2nd best choice.

Well, take a look at how many people were, like me, undecided or their mates or friends were until she started going negative. When she started going negative I started actively working for Obama, knowing that because of the courts I’d vote Dem like I always do in the general, whoever is the nominee. Now I’m not sure I’ll vote if she’s the nominee and I never miss an election of any kind. And…take a look around….I’m not the only one. That winds up, if not deliberately campaigning for McCain, then indirectly doing so.

See my #36.

I’ve been a registered Democrat since ’72, and I’m just about ready to vote for McCain.

You could do that in the face of a vague promise that she would appoint better judges than McCain?

It’s not just all about youuuuu Hillary.

ummm, yes – it is actually.

Le Bigga Mac?

Thank you guys for pushing this story this morning. I have become angrier and angrier over the days listening to Hillary increasingly spout GOP talking points.

What the hell is she thinking? Does she want McCain to win the freaking election?

So while I have said it several times today, again I say, my days of defending this womans campaign are over. This week Hillary Clinton officially made me an Obama supporter.

How far up the ‘thought-chain’ are certain of the comments coming from the Clinton ‘camp’?

Understand, Obama leaves much to be desired as well, as many thoughtful commentators here have underscored…

But, at this rate Clinton and her minions will alienate many voters and convince
a significant number of others that under no circumstance will they vote for her.

Clinton knows better, or should.

If her ‘judgement’ is so lacking now, how may we trust her to think and behave ‘better’ regarding our common interests and shared fate?

I don’t imagine that I am the only one asking these questions. I am certain I am not.

This raises the serious overarching question: How much better, in fact, will Clinton’s policies be than those of the thugs?

We can’t, obviously, ‘know’ the answer but we must face ‘the’ question.

It’s not merely “going negative”, which is perfectly tolerable, even desirable, in a political campaign. It’s a scorched earth tactic, and if she wins it will be a Pyrrhic victory that gives voters a choice of a steely-eyed (i.e., insane) warmonger and a flip-flopping one.

Raven — if you are going to start advocating for McCain here, we are going to need to have a talk. *g*

o/t

brendan – if you are still here

through sheer chance (I don’t regularly watch teevee) have seen Smerconish twice in the last few days and it’s as if he’s had some kind of come to jeebus moment – both times he talked reality based, grown up stuff – he even corrected Tweety’s bs
what the hell ? are these simply his sunday best manners in prep for the PA media onslaught, was he losing ratings for his show ? or just some anomaly ?

and yes, I agreed with Scarecrow downstairs the HRC camp is speaking to superdelegates

msnbc just informed the world that McBush and his mentor ate hot dogs at their luncheon the other day at the WH…

Bet those hot dogs were not steamed, either.

I am not and I totally respect your perspective.

It’s not about the voters at this point. It’s about the press and the remaining superdelegates.

Thanks RonD, I have fwd that piece to friends, fine piece.

I think you’re confusing me with another commenter.

How are you doing, btw — you back home again or still on the road with family? So sorry again for your loss. It’s been a rough year for that it seems like for a lot of folks here. Having aging relatives is so tough…

There is perhaps more to this. At the risk of having to start running around in a tin foil hat, I offer this information that I just came across yesterday. The implications, to me, are staggering.

So we know that Clinton’s chief of strategy (who may be the source of this McCain support from the Hillary campaign) is one Mark Penn who, in his day job, is CEO of a public relations/public affairs/lobbying firm called Burston-Marsteller. We also know that one of McCain’s senior advisers and strategists is one Charlie Black, an uber-lobbyist and, in his day job, the Chairman of a lobbying firm BKSH.

Okay, so what I learned yesterday that is troubling to me not so much for the clear and present conflict of interest that this displays, but for the implications of how completely and hopelessly entwined the politics of corruption is in our system, is that BKSH (Charlie Black’s outfit) is a subsidiary of Burston-Marsteller. That means that Mark Penn is nominally Charlie Black’s boss. Put another way, both the Clinton campaign and the McCain campaign are being run by the same company.

So tell me. How exactly is that good for our election process, our democracy or our country? How is that not a conflict of interest?

And as to the tin foil hat implications, what is the possibility that the strategies of the campaigns are being designed or manufactured in common? To what exact end, I am at a loss. The ultimate conclusion is too far round the conspiracy bend for me. But this definitely deserves a lot more looking into especially considering the pro McCain campaign strategy that Clinton has developed.

I wonder if they were in Super Tuber form?

From TPM … “Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell said it would be important for party unity to have the eventual winner offer the running-mate spot to the losing candidate … ” Link

I guess Ed has been pulling a “Van Winkle” this past week …

You’re being to broad here. Her “policies” generally will of course be far better than any Republican’s, all moot if you have a trillion-dollar a year war going on. The immediate issue, however, is her claims on being “Commander in Chief” and how we’re to interpret her endorsement of McCain in that role.

Thx, off to Colorado for the funeral in the morning. Mrs Raven insists that she can take care of herself with the help of our friends so, against my better judgement, I’m going. Did you pick up on my post that we got flowers from a Firepup? This is a great “place”.

Is Samantha Powers calling Hillary Clinton a “Monster” and effective or responsible way for Obama’s foreign policy teamm to express differences in policy? Is Susan Rice stating that neither Obama not Clinton is ready for a “3 AM call” helpful for either Obama or Clinton? Clinton did not say Obama was not ready, she said it is up to him to demonstrate that he is.

Then she kind of threw him a hardball by releasing a comprehensive policy document on Afghanistan. Since Obama has been too busy to hold any hearings or anything. No mention of this important document anywhere.

I like it RonD and I’m glad it’s out there.

The only other member of the congressional Democratic caucus who praises McCain this much is Joe Lieberman.

hillary is getting REALLY bad advice and if THAT’S the judgement she wants to demonstrate then obama is gonna distance himself easily

if she made any one of us her campaign manager we could turn here campaign around in one week;

she needs to begin PUNISHING this president for every depraved decision, all of his ILLEGAL activity, TRASHING the constitution, ABUSING our armed forces and DECIEVING US INTO WAR

now, if she starts doing THAT, and let’s us know she WILL prosecute war criminals and she will RETURN the assets stolen by war profiteers, THEN she will overtake obama

must be something in the ethers, Raven. I’m watching closely too, & ain’t so greatly amused.

I don’t just have to be “happy”, but be careful, pups. Be very careful.

And, silly uptown as I may appear *sigh* I say FLOOD Hill’s mailbox with angrygrams, not poo, not junk, but just HAMMER her for this.
She’s lost her compass. Throw her a magnet.

I know FDL isn’t endorsing one candidate over another, but for those who consider topics under discussion as the “straw that broke the camel’s back,” it would seem to me that the point of view is best expressed to the superdelegates and to anyone involved in Democratic politics in Pennsylvania. Senator Obama’s web bage contains a method of messaging superdelegates (also noted in the previus thread). Otherwise, any Pennsylvanians might be able to express their views with Ed Rendell and other Pennsylvania politicians and voters.

Raven:

Yes. Vague promises don’t motivate me.

yep *shudder*

But don’t you see she doesn’t object to this war?

No — and I believe BT linked her comment in his post above — about the third or fourth link down. And, FYI, Scarecrow linked it in his post below where you also put a similar comment in his thread.

Everyone, do try clicking through the links, please…

Well, after having stayed out of the fray since Edwards dropped out I just gave Obama $100 and signed up to volunteer. Oh, and I sent a note to superdelegates letting them know I will never vote for Clinton. Let then know you agree here.

Yep and hopefully ‘Blog Mommy’ Christy won’t have to pull over the car today … *g*

Leinie, it’s good to see you, too! The book is going fine. I miss you, though!

-S

So, McCain’s definitive promise to appoint judges in the mold of Alito, Roberts and Scalia isn’t definite enough to motivate you, then? Because it sure as hell motivates me to NOT elect him.

While I have no doubt that Dubya actually likes hot dogs (he is a 10 year old boy), I think he also likes quail wings, filet mignon and French delicacies that few of us have had the opportunity to taste. McCain, even more so.

This is the second overplayed hot dog munching story in a Freidman Unit. It is designed to make McCain (like Dubya) appeal to blue collar types who’ve been robbed of their jobs, homes and retirement by the Republicans. Many rubes are still stupid enough to buy the never ending GWOT and hotdog-munching Presidents (whom are like themselves).

Please remember that enough people in this country thought that the war was a good thing even as Bush was blowing it that they re-elected him. For many people national security is a huge issue (as narrow minded a definition of it as they may have). Seems to me that Clinton is actually fighting for the Democratic party by making sure that the party offers an experienced candidate.

Can anyone point to anything substantial that Obama has accomplished — please don’t respond with Clinton bashing. Answer the question, don’t go negative — what has Obama actually done besides his 2002 speech.

Or Mark Penn could simply be an idiot.

For the sake of discussion, suppose that HRC doesn’t actually intend to endorse McCain if she loses the nomination battle with Obama. What, then, was she trying to say? The best, most charitable interpretation that I can come up with is this: “Look, McCain’s the GOP nominee, and he’s going to run on experience. OK, I’ve got some credentials to match that. (Ed.: Let’s just let that pass for the moment. One discussion at a time.) All Sen. Obama’s got to match it is some nice speeches. Which one of us would you rather have taking on McCain’s experience?”

That’s the most charitable way I can read it, and there’s a lot of assumptions built into it. IF that’s what HRC meant to say, then she damn well better step up and say it like that.

sorry dear, apparently so – thought you were Philly brendan

Dandy! Bravo!

I’m glad you mentioned that. It’s a reminder that it’s not merely a matter of voting for the Democratic candidate, whoever it may be. Sure, we’ll all do that. But will we give money or time to a candidate who touts McCain and implicitly reaffirms her support for the war?

Was chatting yesterday, EPU got the sweetest little puppy, have you seen the pictures? Too cute.

And I agree – no pictures of Hillary hugging and kissing on McBush. Mr. L is thinking of putting that picture of Bush and McCain hugging on his truck, with a “four more years” sarcastic kind of commentary.

After the last few weeks, from “Shame on you, Barack” to the clips KO ran last night, Hillary is fair game. She started this Pie fight and she will lose quite badly …

You know, I don’t think this was Hillary’s best moment. In fact, I don’t think it was very helpful to her campaign or our party.

Look, I said I did not care for the remark and that it was not helpful.
My disagreement with most of you is that I do not think it constitutes campaining for McCain.

Now, do you really think that was her intent? I don’t.

I think we have two great candidates. I will support either one them happily.

I just grow a bit weary of the pounding Hillary takes every damn day here.
I, like most of you, find plenty to be critical of her for, but I do not think she is the devil incarnate or that Obama is something other than a very good politician.

hillary is getting REALLY bad advice

I’ve become convinced that, even though I’m not a chess player, I could kick the crap out of any one of Hillary’s “brain trust”.

These people can barely see the very next move, and what’s coming four or five moves down the line…… well, they’ll just deal with that later.

She hasn’t said all that already, explicitly even?

And if she hasn’t, how does putting it the way you have mitigate the destructiveness of it?

It’s not just one remark, though. It’s a pattern.

You’re kidding, right? Have you ever heard of reading?

Thanks guys. My attempt to make a small contribution.

Safe trip Raven.

Very sorry about your loss. Take care, friend.

Eyes on the prize…circular firing squad doesn’t get a McCain defeat in November. Neither candidate should be fair game. Which, I believe, is BT’s point above. Otherwise….well, who wants a continuous =, stupid, self-perpetuating pie fight? Only people who like pie fights…and the GOP and the media, who feed off this crap.

With experience like McCain and Clinton have, who needs enemies?

for yourself, I mean. We’re all too busy to do your reading and thinking for you.

Why the presumption that it’s “advice”, and not her conviction? This is a form of apology for her worst dimension.

No one is fair game.

It’s about protecting the brand, regardless of who wins the nomination.

Peterr – I am also trying to “read it generously”… my thought is that Hillary is signaling she’s going hard after McCain next… she seems to have that habit of complementing, then pivoting right around for the attack…

Time will tell.

The Clintons hav always put themselves ahead of the party.

Add to that Hillary’s choice to work for a union-busting law firm, her choice to sit on the board of a union-busting company and her choice to hire union-busting staffers, and I wonder how on earth do good Democrats contemplate voting for her?

I say FLOOD Hill’s mailbox with angrygrams, not poo, not junk, but just HAMMER her for this.

G E O R G E W A L K E R B U S H !

L A U G H W E G O B E R S E R K !

(Sorry, thuoght you said ‘anagrams…)

You’re really underestimating the substance of these repeated endorsements of McCain. This is not a “pie-fight”, a la Tony Rezko or tax records. As destructive as she’s being to the Democratic Party, Clinton is at least forcing debate on the most important subject facing the nation.

Clearly, but the problem is she’s limiting her own attack by laying the groundwork that he’s crossed some threshold to be CIF. That’s what’s so maddening.

1,778 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Blue Texan and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

I want to paraphrase sompthin’ I said downstream: Mrs. Clinton has declared “war” on the Democratic Party, and like many people who have never experienced the real thing, she thinks that “war” is jest a word and the most people will be too afraid to oppose it.

Well, “war” is more than jest a word and “civil war” is what the corporate fascists have been settin’ up since 2001…sweet Jesus, the Chimpenfuehrer has been callin’ himself “Abraham Lincoln” and usin’ the civil war analogy to justify suspension of the consitution. Mrs. Clinton is now a fully-flegged participating member of the “vast rightwing conspiracy”.

We CAN stand up to war…we did it once before, 40 years ago and we can do it again. If we brought LBJ down we ken certainly handle George W. Clusterfuck and Mrs. Clinton ain’t got nearly the chops LBJ had.

Let’s call upon all the superdelegates to declare for Obama, lets’ get behind Howard Dean to do whatever he needs to do to insure that Mrs. Clinton doesn’t get a single delegate from the Florida and Michigan primaries and let’s stand behind Obama and raise ‘im up above this shit throwin’. Remember, those who declare war usually don’t have a clue what it’s all about…and remember, it is “FEAR” that is jest a word!!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, FEAR IS JEST A WORD!!!

To Blue Texan:

Knock it off? Are you kidding? This is all she’s got. Is that all the outrage you can muster? If so, you’re an enabler.

And, just in case someone is saying to themselves “Well, another Scalia-type justice wouldn’t be so bad, would it?” — read on…

readmylips:

OHIO. WAS. STOLEN.

Signaling she’s “going hard after McCain next” by praising him, and not with backhanded compliments, or ones about insubstantial matters, but on the whole rationale for McCain’s candidacy (have you seen the military style of his campaign logo?)?

Yeah, she’s got McCain right where she wants him.

Tom Daschle on The Daily Show said (quite vociferously) that he will cast his super delegate vote for Obama (unless he has to change it, due to regular delegate count and the popular vote in his state).

I’m getting tired of the primary- but I have never seen Hillary campaign for McBush…I HAVE seen her suggest that McBush has hefty defense credentials and that dems should elect someone who can match him in that area—he is clearly weak on domestic/economic issues.

Krugman has an interesting op/ed piece up at NYT in which he says that Obama is the better candidate if the war is the issue, but Hillary is the best candidate if the issue is the economy. At the moment, the issue is the economy- but of course that could change.

I’m going to have to send two notes to the superdelegates telling them I’d never vote for Obama.
Nice.

Makes no sense that she won the Union vote in Ohio.

I personally did not have anything negative to say about Hillary until she started saying McCain was a better choice for president than Obama. And many of us are saying exactly that. What she’s doing with this latest outpouring to the media is, imo, destructive for the Democrats. That means, again imo, it’s over the line of political back-and-forth between nominees.

Your proof of that would be? I’m sorry — but don’t go throwing that out without having solid proof. Unsourced innuendo is not going to cut it on an accusation like that…

HRC campaign calling for the firing of Obama staffer who called Hillary a “monster”. fwiw, I tend to think that Obama should do just that. It would certainly show some separation between the two camps in how they treat going negative.

and yes, I realize it was supposed to be off the record and just one mistake, but it might be time for Obama to sacrifice a foot soldier for the greater good.

here at the lake of fire and dogs

Hmmm.
All this time I thought it was the lake of firedogs…

Bush serves McCain’t a cheap luncheon of hotdogs, glad to hear Bush is spending tax dollars wisely for a change.

Agreed, circular firing squad is counter productive … Hillary should be running on her strengths, instead she’s running down Obama.

I watched KO last night and was incensed, which doesn’t happen easily …

It’s good to hear Krugman’s edging toward the light. Now maybe that lighbulb will go off and he’ll realize the war has something to do with the economy.

heh

Is Samantha Powers calling Hillary Clinton a “Monster” and effective or responsible way for Obama’s foreign policy teamm to express differences in policy? Is Susan Rice stating that neither Obama not Clinton is ready for a “3 AM call” helpful for either Obama or Clinton? Clinton did not say Obama was not ready, she said it is up to him to demonstrate that he is.

Then she kind of threw him a hardball by releasing a comprehensive policy document on Afghanistan. Since Obama has been too busy to hold any hearings or anything. No mention of this important document anywhere.

Both Powers and Rice were reprimanded by the Obama campaign, who apologized for the out of place remarks. I haven’t heard anything about the comprehensive policy document you mentioned, but I have heard that Afghanistan is not under the purview of Obama’s subcommittee, and that Senator Lugar wanted Obama on his committee to help work on reducing nuclear poliferation.

I also haven’t seen much talk on this blog about the fact that Hillary let the Obama campaign take the rap for the NAFTA fiasco involving the Canadian government, when she was initially involved. I beleive his campaign’s involvement was only an afterthought. Mrs. Machiavelli stikes once again.

707 Astral!

I think they were referring to the 04 General Election irregularities in Ohio under the tutelage of Blackwell.

At the risk of being crass, it’s the difference between being rhetorically stupid and selling out the Democratic party.

I’m leaning toward rhetorically stupid. I’ve been there, done that myself, more than once, and I think I know rhetorically stupid when I see it. On the other hand, the more often she repeats the line, the more I am forced to question my conclusion.

readmylips:

OHIO. WAS. STOLEN.

“I sure learned my lesson. If you steal something, never try to give it back.” -Frank Burns in MASH

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03…..an.html?hp

Link to Krugman piece- well worth a read.

agreed…

OHIO. WAS. STOLEN.

Oh, now wait a minute. I saw Ken Blackwell on MSNBC just the other night, and he didn’t mention that at all.

;->

readmylips:

OHIO. WAS. STOLEN.

…from the Native Americans.

Not a staffer. An advisor.

Okay, that one has plenty of background info. *g* I thought we were talking about something from a coupla days ago which hasn’t as yet, seen any real in-depth analysis that I’ve been able to find beyond the anecdotal at this point…

At the moment, the issue is the economy- but of course that could change.

not any time soon – along with all the bad econ news of the past few days, let’s not forget ARM’s are scheduled to reset EOM – more misery all around

OHIO. WAS. STOLEN.

Oh, Lordie. Cry wolf much?

I saw this mentioned on KO last night and was disappointed that he let an anonymously sourced story stand as if it was proven fact–the campaign vehemently denies the story. Seems that we need the source revealed if it is going to have any credibility.

Obama campaign is probably enjoying watching Clinton climb out as far as she can on her Lieberman limb. Because once she creepsout far enough it will snap.

That would be a dramatic — and good — move on Obama’s part.

[Rule one for staffers dealing with the media: if a conversation is supposed to be off the record, you say that BEFORE something inappropriate comes out of your mouth. You don’t get to use “that’s OTR” to cover your own mistakes.]

“I believe that I’ve done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you’ll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy,” [Hillary] said.

In crises, we need a leader with good judgement, not someone who flails about and does things that aid our opponents as Bush did in invading Iraq and Hillary did in the quote above.

Well I wish that it would snap already so that we can talk about the issues.

Really? I’m an enabler?

Would you prefer I cuss more or something? :)

WTF?

omg, Shuster redux

Rule one for staffers dealing with the media: if a conversation is supposed to be off the record, you say that BEFORE something inappropriate comes out of your mouth. You don’t get to use “that’s OTR” to cover your own mistakes.]
replyReply

Unless, of course, you are talking to Timmeh, in which case the Pumpkinhead’s default is off the record, not on. I can kinda understand why she might have been confused, not realizing that Cheney rules weren’t universal.

She’s lost her compass.

That’s funny, I think she just found her voice. Sad, because she lost all my respect as a coincidence of that.

His experience in conducting foreign affairs, approval of initiation of military operations, and actual participation in military operations is equal to hers. He has had the good since not to make “experience” the issue when neither candidate can compete with Senator McCain on that ground alone.

In a one on one contest, his organization has been able to raise vastly more money, organize much better on the local level, provide a better, bring in large numbers of first time voters, avoid obvious internal conflict, and avoid using unity destroying campaign tactics agains her.

Senator Clinton can “offer herself” as an alternative with vast experience without actually promoting the Republican opposition at the expense of her own party.

Thanks Blue Texan – that’s exactly what I was asking for!

You are a Texan, aren’t you?

Why so sanguine about this? Lieberman won his reelection campaign. The media conspired to sell us the war. We’ve made it a game, but the game is still rigged. The minute I heard of that red phone ad I realized how ominous a development it was and where it would lead.

This is the issue. It is the war. Clinton is forcing a decision.

Mark Penn or Harold Ickes can give Hillary advice but she is solely responsible for taking the advice. It does indicate what type of judgment she has.

*slaps forehead*

I stand corrected.

LOL … I was gonna say the exact same thing …

“You can’t lose what you never had”.

1778 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hardin Smith:

“…circular firing squad doesn’t get a McCain defeat in November.”

What are you saying Christy? Are you saying that by elevating the Republican nominee above both herself and Obama, Mrs. Clinton has NOT disqualified herself from the Democratic nomination? Are you saying that Mrs. Clinton has not declared a civil war inside the Democratic Party?

I would agrue that Mrs. Clinton HAS declared political civil war and she expects most Democrats to be too scared (there’s the word “FEAR” again) to engage her. But when someone declares war on you, you no longer have a “neutral” position, you fight or lose. That is the terrible choice Mrs.Clinton made to declare this “political” war and the only thing we can do as Democrats is win the God damned thing and get enough Clinton supporters to reject her and cast her and her minons out of the Democratic Party, root and fuckin’ branch!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION YOUR ENEMY HAS MADE THE CHOICE FOR YOU…DON’T LET US FIGHT FOR YOU BY OURSELVES!!

I repeat….Where the hell’s Obama? Shouldn’t we be seeing him. We’re getting all this negative stuff and (unless I keep missing him), the man has gone into hiding.
Dukakis redux?

I thought the same thing until I went back through the threads.

That’s exactly the spirit we need! She will do half of the work for us.

It seems to me that many of the same people complaining about “out of touch Washington politicians” are the same people complaining about Obama’s so-called “lack of experience”.

Irony for breakfast, slightly bitter.

Obama is letting her tread slowly as far into the wingnutosphere as she can manage before calling her on it. She’s on a roll, no reason to slow the descent into madness.

what they could be talking about . . .

like many here, it is tough to prioritize my outrages, but way up at the top is the Bankruptcy Bill

remember the amendments offered up ? protecting active military, seniors, identity theft victims ??? hmmm

McCain voted against ALL of them, and for cloture

If Lieberman would have said this we would be boiling the tar and plucking the feathers off the old red hen.

Hillary Clinton is no Democrat … I knew Democrats.

Kick her out of the party.

That’s a good way of putting it.

I just think it kinda funny that Clinton is aligning herself with McCain at the same time McCain is getting endorsed by Bush at the same we are developing a McBush narrative.

More of the Same!

hillary recent comments fit into which stage of grief?

Denial?

Anger?

Bargaining?

Depression?

Acceptance?

sadly i think she is between anger and denial.

BKSH (Charlie Black’s outfit) is a subsidiary of Burston-Marsteller

link, please. Need some evidence.

You know, I’d have to think carefully about more Scalias vs. waging counter productive, unnecessary, open-ended wars that kill and maim hundreds of thousands of peoople, many of them children.

I’d have to think real hard about it.

If a Scalia-esque court recinds Roe, then poor women who want abortions and cannot afford to travel to blue states to get them resort to illegal abortions, many of them will die. But how many?

More than the Bush-Cheney-McCain-Clinton wars?

Like I said, I’d have to give it careful consideration.

Way OT and sorry, but good heavens – watching Monica Novotny on MSNBC is almost creepy for me – it’s like “what the heck is my little sister doing on teevee?” (amazing resemblance).

You know, cbl2, a retrospective on the bankruptcy bill would be time very well spent.

OT:

US job situation in February, from CNBC: “U.S. employers cut payrolls for a second straight month during February, slashing 63,000 jobs for the biggest monthly job decline in nearly five years as the labor market weakened steadily, a government report on Friday showed.”

Canadian job situation in February, from the Globe and Mail: “Job creation in Canada unexpectedly continued to defy gravity in February, as employers added 43,300 net new bodies to their work forces, just under the remarkable 46,400 they added in January and well above last year’s average of 31,000 a month.

The “less jobs” part of Scarborough’s “less jobs, more war” line about the GOP seems to be holding up nicely.

apologies. If I could, I would.

I live here in OH, for 30+ yrs now. Our grown kids live here. Many friends…

The stories of polling places in CLE being moved without proper notice, being inaccessible ditto due to various types of barriers/reconstruction in the areas, insufficient numbers of poll workers and voting machines and ballots in heavily Democratic areas – while overabundances of all those were in heavily Republican areas; “lost”, inadvertently destroyed or strayed ballots ditto; long long long lines so that people in heavily Democratic areas couldn’t afford to risk their jobs to wait, and others were in line all night…..

Put all those actual happenings together, & I draw perhaps an erroneous conclusion. Perhaps all those things just happened in a highly skewed way by coincidence. You may judge the situation as you wish. I don’t have time or energy to look up all the links for you right this minute, but I know it happened. That was not just a gratuitous, cheap shot.

I was here.

One of Diebold’s head honchos publically promised Bush do do all he could to get him elected. That quote should still be on record somewhere. So should quotes and behavior by then OH Secy of State Ken Blackwell.

Here’s to get you started if anyone desires background for my “out-of-bounds” rant:

http://www.rollingstone.com/ne…..ion_stolen

It’s true — look back at one of my McCain posts on Charlie Black — had a link to a story on that a couple of weeks ago when I was digging in on the Lobbyist Express. Will see if I can find it…

You know, cbl2, a retrospective repeal on the bankruptcy bill would be time very well spent.

it’s an abomination.

Thanks for playing. I haven’t gotten one real answer to my question at 89.

One response of “read much”. — Yes, I do, and I haven’t seen anything substantial.

One response of “Ohio was stolen” — What are you talking about?

One response that referenced Clinton not having initiate military operations — true, but she is ACTIVE on the Armed Service committee. Where was Obama on his committee where he could have showed his chops?

No one was able to list or point me to information on what Obama has actually done with regards to foreign policy other than his 2002 speech. I would seriously like to know, if he is going to be the Democratic nominee I need to know that I can vote for him. Please don’t respond that Clinton hasn’t done anything either.

Link to BKSH webpage

In the last paragraph of the section A Bipartisan Team:
“As a member of the Burson-Marsteller family, BKSH & Associates Worldwide is able to work with decision makers in all 50 states and around the world.”

The only acceptable explanation is the Stockholm Syndrome.

I am reminded of the tale of King Solomon and how he had to decide which woman was the parent of the baby. He proposed splitting it in half. The lying woman was okay with half. The real mother rather would give it away than destroy the baby.

Guess how Solomon judged..

How Clinton and Obama campaign show us how they will run the country and their party.

I always thought it would be McCain that melted down. I had it wrong.
It was the “qualified” one for the red phone, senator Clinton. I hope
she continues to act out, her negatives are so high already she will
self destruct soon, then we can get on with the work to be done to
put our country back into shape and convince our kids we are not totally
lame.

oops. missed poo day by this much. apologies must have been a dream… *sits back on silk pillow & adjust cucumber slices on closed eyes*

Well, it’s not just Roe vs. Wade. It’s habeas corpus, illegal wiretapping, ETC.

Blue Texan:

Clinton can’t “knock it off.” She’s crossed a “threshhold”.

Excellent story and one I use from time to time in my meditation classes !

Here’s the link:

http://www.burson-marsteller.c…../BKSH.aspx

1,778 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Firepu Freedom Fighters:

Mrs. Clinton has declared war on Democrats and because she’s had such good experience with the last time she helped declare war, she thinks we’ll jest roll over for her…well if it’s war she wants, let’s give it to ‘er and kick her worthless ass outta the Democratic Party. “War” is real…”fear” is jest a word.

KEEP THE FAITH AND LET’S FINISH THE JOB…GOD IS WATCHIN’!!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND THEY WILL REVEAL THEMSELVES TO YOU!!!

The Clintons are totally insincere about healthcare, her “experience” proves that contention. You are absolutely right that 60 votes is the number and if that happens it will be a legislative product not anything the Clintons would be responsible for.

BKSH (Charlie Black’s outfit) is a subsidiary of Burston-Marsteller

link, please. Need some evidence.

NY Times — Clinton Strategist Represents Blackwater

Google Search — Charlie Black Mark Penn sitting in a tree

I disagree. People’s attentions spans are good for about 5 minutes. Plenty of time left to pivot and correct the behavior.

this will be the very first time i disagree with Krugman….end the war NOW ,the economy improves in short order imo

The McCain campaign will disagree with you.

I speculated the other day about Hillary’s motivations in doing this. I hope I’m just being wildly “tinfoil hat”, and I hope that party leadership is ready to step in so that she doesn’t find some way to get delegates (even the “pledged” ones) to switch to her because she has made Obama look “unelectable”.

I’ll be kinder and say the Clintons are ineffective on healthcare.

true, as i’ve heard it. i wasn’t there quite yet.

agree. I’d have to weigh our constitutional freedoms against a whole lot of dead people and shattered lives.

As tired as I am of the campaign, I’m glad that it continues. Obama is likely to win- but I want to see how he handles attacks and he’s getting some. I would also like to see a sober analysis of the differences between these two candidates at a policy level- something that hasn’t happened yet.

You asked for one.

The purpose was to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists. The link is to the Obama official Senate site, not the campaign site, and it is the press release from the day the bill was signed into law.

Now, a question for you. Hillary wants me to believe she is better positioned on this because she was in the bed when the phone rang. I don’t accept that – by that logic, I’m a great c++ programmer because my husband is. You name me one thing from her.

1,778 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen sadlyyes:

I think maybe Krugman is sayin that the economy is broken and we don’t have either the tax-base or the federal social infrastructure left to mobilze capital and get it back into the domestic economy…so the war is the only “ecomonic stimulus” we got for the short term.

That means we’re fucked.

KEEP THE FAITH, FEAR IS JEST A WAORD!!

Dammit! The link didn’t work. Try again.

http://obama.senate.gov/press/…..obama_non/

how about a little schadenfreude break . . .

what was supposed to be a Republic fait accompli has turned in to an actual battle

Special Election this saturday to replace Hastert IL-14, is now a slugfest wherein RNC has had to kick down sorely needed elsewhere $1M – teehee

MuHAHAHA!

yup…that his my great EXPERIENCE,with her experience

While the policy differences may be minimal, one has begun an alliance with McCain and the other hasn’t. Seems like a policy difference to me.

There was a great Hillary piece in the New Yorker recently. According to the article, Hillary and Bill differed on health care. Hillary was unwilling to make compromises to get something passed, Bill thought they should be made. Hillary’s stubborness about getting the whole loaf led to getting no loaf at all. This is depicted in the article as being a part of her personality- to stick to her guns no matter what. Even now she insists on mandatory coverage in order to get universal care- something Obama wants no part of.

The differences between these two may not be obvious.

Please tell us what you think of Senator Clinton’s statement yesterday.

OT – HuffPo reporting that Michigan will hold a caucus.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs…..ember.aspx

Any kind of betting odds on whether a deadlocked convention could successfully draft Al Gore?

Just wondering.

Finally! The thread I’ve been living for and work gets in the way.

Oh well, better late than never. Off to read the comments now.

well impeach the ratbastids,tax the uber rich,put people to work looking for alternative/enviormentally friendly sources….and lets get on with our Republic!!!!!!!!!!!!

can we begin with the OIL cos?

This echoes Scarecrow (see @36).

how about a little schadenfreude break . . .

what was supposed to be a Republic fait accompli has turned in to an actual battle

Special Election this saturday to replace Hastert IL-14, is now a slugfest wherein RNC has had to kick down sorely needed elsewhere $1M – teehee

The GOP is having all kinds of money problems these days, it seems . . .

GOP Campaign Arm Missing Cash
FBI Investigating Treasurer Fired Over Lack of Auditing
By Paul Kane and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, March 7, 2008; Page A04

Authorities investigating possible fraud by a longtime GOP operative have determined that the House Republican campaign committee has lost a substantial sum of money, and several GOP lawmakers believe funds were pilfered from their campaign accounts as well, law enforcement and Capitol Hill sources said yesterday.

The National Republican Congressional Committee, the House Republicans’ campaign arm, lost a “significant amount of money,” said a law enforcement official who also confirmed that the FBI has begun investigating the committee’s longtime treasurer, Christopher J. Ward.

It’s kind of hard to spend the cash on tight races if you can’t find it.

“What’s all this I hear about a Dreadlocked Convention?” -Emily Latella

The Supreme Court vs. Endless War

It’s a think-um.

The McCain campaign will disagree. The life span of these comments will not be “five minutes”.

all gypsies tramps and thieves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWeezUxIzaE

I don’t think you can get a deadlocked convention with just two candidates- you need a third who refuses to release delegates.

*wiping up coffee*

Or some superdelegates who don’t want to be put in the position of anointing anyone, and so choose to vote for someone else on the first ballot.

when will Edwards be heard

Rob — I’ve already done so several times this morning. All over scarecrow’s thread, in fact. Start here…

breaking –

Obama advisor Samantha Powers to resign from campaign

Obama advisor Samantha Powers to resign from campaign

do tell

Answer: Probably for the same reason Mr. Obama’s foreign advisor (Obama is not ready to answer the call) Rice is also campaigning for Mr. McCain. If Hillary isn’t the nominee Hillary and Rice both believe McCain will make a better president than Obama.

Oh shoot, where did I put my “That was Easy” button..

He’s always shown good judgment. When he feels the time is right, I have no doubt he’ll speak up. And I hope he plays an active role in the new administration.

It was an unfortunate comment made in frustration, IMO, but I’m sure the loss will be felt by the Obama campaign.

at Kos

vet Hill

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../52/469804

For me, his has been one of the core points of this primary season ever since Obama declared.

We’re seeing the same contradiction in how fellow Dems respond to the type of campaigning each camp has done. For years everyone complains about “dirty tricks” and “negative campaigning,” yet there still many Liberals defending Team Clinton right now, when Clinton has obviously been much more negative than Obama.

It really seems to be a collective Battered Party Syndrome, where Dems keep going back to the abusers (Clintons and other DLCers) because there’s some comfort in the familiarity.

Any specific reason given? (She’s probably busy promoting her new book.)

Obama advisor Samantha Powers to resign from campaign

It’s the right move. Obama should say some nice things about her, but then make clear that he agrees with her decision, because that’s not the way he wants his campaign to be run…

From the comment you just linked to
Anyone else feeling the need for an election vacation? Or is it just me this morning?

I sure am. Evidence here.

I think maybe Krugman is sayin that the economy is broken and we don’t have either the tax-base or the federal social infrastructure left to mobilze capital and get it back into the domestic economy

I haven’t read the Krugman piece but I would say that if you took the volatility out of markets that hedge funds introduce into them by limiting their activities you would be way ahead. I don’t think people realize that hedge funds account for only 1-2% of the total equity in world markets but that on any given day they account for 50% of the trades. Hedge funds do not create greater efficiencies. They do the very opposite promoting wasteful and unproductive uses of capital. There are, of course, many other problems we need to confront as well: energy, healthcare, education, global warming, and fair trade. Almost all of these are doable. The problem is cutting through the BS of Republicans, big business, and special interests. What is needed is the political will to confront real challenges in a reasoned, fair, and realistic way but that has always been the problem.

Me, too. Does everybody get it now?

Christy @ 179, greenwarrior @ 182,

Thanks! This is a remarkable conflict of interest. While cruisin’ on Sen. McSame’s Double Talk Express, Charlie Black is making money for . . . [wait for it] . . . the conglomerate run by Sen. Clinton’s campaign manager! So, naturally, Sen. Clinton’s manager is quite grateful, leading him to gently insinuate in her ear that it would be helpful to offer flufftacular praise of McSame. But, noooo, we can’t call that “campaigning” for McSame, she’s just asking Obama to make his case. Give me a break!

If you watched her entire interview, the comments applied to McCain as well.

Here is one link to the BKSH site specifying their integration with Burston Marsteller. And a link to a DailyKos diary a few weeks ago for some more info. I heard this yesterday on Thom Hartmann’s radio show, I think from a guest from Center for American Progress, but I’m still looking for that.

a efffffing men!

Jah Mon…

I think maybe Krugman is sayin that the economy is broken and we don’t have either the tax-base or the federal social infrastructure left to mobilze capital and get it back into the domestic economy

krugman is wrong

the tax base is not to tax, it’s to reclaim those assets that were stolen from the infrastructure in the first place

simple stuff there

If you look at the demographics of the electorate from exit polling Obama has not been winning the 60+ vote. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say it can’t all be attributed to racism as some have suggested. Obama needs to convince the over 60 crowd that he does have the chops to be CIC. He’s either going to have to convince them during the primary or after he is selected as the nominee. It’s far better for him to do that now than to find out he can’t in the general.

martha @ 190 and ckls @ 193, thanks very much for the links. Looks like KOS was all over this last month. What egregious corporate tools Clinton has hired! Let’s hear something from the Obama campaign about who should be fired from the Clinton campaign to resolve these conflicts of interest, if we’re gonna’ have surrogates start demanding firings of campaign advisors.

Unnamed DNC source says that Michigan will hold caususes before the convention. Obama seems to win cauci- so this is good news (if true) for his team.

One response of “read much”. — Yes, I do, and I haven’t seen anything substantial.

…

One response that referenced Clinton not having initiate military operations — true, but she is ACTIVE on the Armed Service committee. Where was Obama on his committee where he could have showed his chops?

I’d suggest starting with a little open-mindedness rather than repeating campaign rhetoric. The accusation about Obama not holding hearings on Afghanistan is simply a lie. The subcommittee he chairs has somewhat within its purview NATO operations in Europe so accusing him of not holding hearings on NATO operations in Afghanistan simply has no basis.

As for a good quick read on his accomplishments, I’d suggest this. I think we need to give both Clinton and Obama some slack on what they’ve accomplished vs. what they’ve worked hard on, considering that both were dealing with part of the time with a Republican Congress that didn’t even allow Democratic proposals to come up for a vote and part of the time with a Republican minority that openly admitted they were more concerned with denying Democrats any accomplishments than with what was good for the country.

I am soooooo tired of hearing about the advice Hillary is getting. Can’t the person ready to be president make decisions herself?

Perhaps Obama would want to bring on Robert Reich, Clinton’s former Secretary of Labor, who has been supportive of Obama’s economic plans including the health care proposal.

Here’s bit from Robert’s latest blog entry:

he Clintons would prefer to write off Obamania as a passing fad, but the reality is that idealism and inspiration are necessary preconditions for positive social change. Nothing happens in Washington unless Americans are energized and mobilized to make it happen. HRC’s tactics are the old politics the nation is recoiling from — internal division and national fear. This only serves to deepen Americans’ cynicism about politics, and makes social change all the harder to achieve.

http://robertreich.blogspot.co…..party.html

Right on, bro.

Unnamed DNC source says that Michigan will hold caususes before the convention.

The form of the MI redo is still in flux — one option is a “firehouse primary” caucus — which is actually a primary election, with fewer polling places and shorter (mostly late day) hours.

I think it’s a pretty big leap from the 60+ vote to C-in-C. Racism isn’t the only alternative explanation. Hillary was winning the 60+ vote when she was just talking about “experience” before she started emphasizing the C-in-C stuff. Obama is younger, he’s less familiar, and he isn’t associated with Bill Clinton — just a few of the other possible reasons for the difference.

It’s fine if he can retool to better appeal to that group as long as it doesn’t undermine his appeal where he’s already winning, but if not, he’d be better off continuing what’s been working and waiting to retool until the general. Winning that group against McCain is going to be different than winning them against Clinton anyway.

I’m in that group, and I wouldn’t guess the fear factor is that great. We’re all children of WWII people, broters or sisters of Korean War people, Vietnam era veterans, and witnesses to all subsequent wars. Islamic terrorist don’t seem like such a big deal compared to nuclear destruction of the world (I have a scar on my knee from playing “duck and cover” over a thorny mesquite branch). While 9/11 was terrible, we’re familiar with cities being ringed with Nike missle batteries, each missle designed to carry a 16 kt warhead.

I would guess it has more to do with a general belief as you age that experience is more important than hope and idealism and perhaps a fear of statments about messing around with social security.

Really, Hillary’s only proof is the statement that she has crossed over the required threshold. When you think about it, McCain is the only one who faced an actual threshold, in that he was considered for promotion to rear admiral and passed over. Commander-in-Chief is seven ranks higher.

delurking…..

My heart was with Kucinich, my head for Edwards, but by the time I got to vote here in CA, they were both history. The three women in my life my mom, my wife, and my daughter are all Obama supporters. For the last five months I’ve been defending HRC with them by pointing out how close Obama and HRC actually are on the issues and other various counterarguments to the frequently-made arguments by Obamamaniacs.

But now I am ready to F**KING EXPLODE!!!!!!!!! I understand the desire remain above the fray and not fling poo. But poo is frequently flung here again Republicans and, sometimes even more vehemently, against Rahm Emanuel and the DLC. Even if you think Clinton is not DLC, she is surely running a DLC-style-focused-on-key-state campaign, which to my mind, hurts the progressive movement over-all.

And now this CRAP! I say throw her under the bus, before we all go down with her.

/rant
…..relurking

yes, Reich would make a fine addition. But no contact with press for at least a probationary month, i.e., until after the PA primary, methinks

Really, Hillary’s only proof is the statement that she has crossed over the required threshold. When you think about it, McCain is the only one who faced an actual threshold, in that he was considered for promotion to rear admiral and passed over. Commander-in-Chief is seven ranks higher.

Nice. I’ll have to remember that one.

Why is McCain suddenly talking about ”unity”?

Thanks Redshift. That was a useful and interesting link, I will read through it when I get a chance this weekend.

maybe I missed something. But why should any one think that McCain has strong defense experience? He flew jets in a war and suffered as a POW for five years. But how does that make him an expert in defense and national security. His votes and his mouth since he’s been in government are his experience and IIRC, that experience sucks. For that matter, what is Clinton’s national security experience worth? So far we have bad choices versus good speeches.

He needs Huckaboner’s and Paul’s votes.

I find it amusing that McBush’s heroic military act was GETTING SHOT DOWN.

Turns out that he put half a dozen aircraft on the ground BEFORE that incident. Then he stayed in a stink hole jail for years. It isn’t as if he CHOSE to be there to serve his country.

I really don’t get it.

He chose to not be released early.

Even if you think Clinton is not DLC, she is surely running a DLC-style-focused-on-key-state campaign, which to my mind, hurts the progressive movement over-all.

Thanks for chiming in. Hillary has been the chair of the DLC and is currently on their “Leadership Team.” Bill was practically a founder of the DLC. No one can honestly claim that they’re not DLCers.

I hear ya about the damage being caused to Liberals by this stuff, but I personally think that’s exactly why the DLC was created in the first place – to keep Liberals “in line.” BigMoney wants to make sure we don’t get our act together enough to disrupt their obscene profit margins. They develop a stable of politicians that call themselves Democrats but will act first and foremost in the interests of BigMoney, and all the while actual Democrats will keep voting voting them in since “they’re better than a Republican!” How often have we heard that over the last decade or two?

This is what has excited me so much about the Blue America program here since the whole point is to elect actual Democrats for a change. Sadly, the Blue America attitude hasn’t carried over into the Presidential race for many of our fellow Liberals.

No matter what, we’ll all be able to rally behind some key Congressional races in the months to come, which will be nice.

Probably the alcohol angle, flyboy crashed a lot and drank like there
was no tomorrow, flag rank just too much responsibility for him… too
bad Junya did not face the same test.

Its a form of political correctness employed by republicans especially. You can’t point out that getting captured was actually a failure, defeat, or at best he was a victim of the war. But they get to lie about Kerry and Cleland (sic?) and that’s ok.

Excellent analogy, though I’ve always been irked by the stupidity of the tale: why would the lying woman be content with half a baby?

Actually, after that reflection, I realize it’s a perfect analogy for Clinton’s behavior.

Didn’t know about that. Is that the basis of the hero stories?

Yeah, he can’t actually win ELECTIONS, only circus…OOPS! I mean caucuses where loud, obnoxious, aggressive shills and packing the room with bused in out of staters can gin up the results you want. So I bet he DOES like caucuses.

You realize Obama has won more primaries than Clinton, right?

Troll alert.

I watched the whole interview. I know we all have a candidate we like ( I support Hill) but no rationale, objective person believes McCAin is not quailified to handle that call. Now, he might make different choses based on that phone call but he is qualified.

NOw, for your chief foreign advisors to come out and say My guy is not qualified is absolutely stupid. She can say the other candidates are not but to say your guy is not or she actually might believe Obama is not qualified but to say it publically….Tsk,tsk. NO amount of walkback is going to make that right.

please, let’s not go there about his POW suffering.

It is a valid point, I think, to question McSame’s authority and experience as a “commander,” as suggested by crosstimbers @ 253 and orcatjf @ 259.

What military units did McSame ever actually “command,” i.e., lead in battle? Answer, maybe none, or maybe his own sorties (i.e., him and his wing-man). He did serve valiantly, he took orders in combat and suffered as a POW. But he was not a field grade commander, did not lead other troops in battle, did not command a ship or an air wing. Now, perhaps that is a slippery slope, because his supporters may retort that he might have missed out on a few promotions to field grade command level because he sat in a POW camp for eight years.

I said elections, ya know, where people actually cast VOTES? And where were his primary victories? REAL good chance of alot of them going Dem in the general. BWAHAHA!

Christy 123 and 141

In the future, I shall endeavor to be more precise, but I cannot promise I have spewed all my pent-up rant quite yet. I will try to keep pressure gauge under control, but I will never be able to forget what actually happened, and now has been swept under the rug by virtually everyone, as if no illegalities occurred. To me, we lost our Constitution right then and there, in the “elections” of 2000 and 2004.

Thank you IrishJim @ 132 for your clarification of my flubber.

I want our country back, Christy, just as much as you. Please pardon my lack of proper style.

On July 29 1967, John narrowly survived the first of many near-death experiences during his lifetime while preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam from his ship, the USS Forrestal. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane struck the fuel tanks on John’s plane and created a deadly inferno aboard the ship. John barely escaped the fiery disaster that killed 134 men, injured hundreds more and destroyed 20 planes.

Instead of taking the option to return home after the Forrestal disaster, Senator McCain volunteered for more combat duty – a fateful decision that stopped the clock on his life and separated him from his family, and country, for five and a half years.

Is this what you mean about choosing not to be released early? I haven’t found anything yet about him turning down an early out from the Hanoi Hilton- but it does sound vaguely familiar.

McBush was CO of naval airgroup in Florida before being passed over for promotion.

Yes. The NVA found out his father was commander of all Pacific naval forces (equivelent of Nimitz in WWII), and wanted to let him go as a propaganda measure. He declined to leave before his comrades, even though he was seriously close to death.

I want to beat McCain, but I sure wouldn’t try to demean his personal courage or sacrifice. Other military age guys were trying to get into National Guard Units, etc..

I think you want it back more than she does, little folks need it more.

I think Redd thought that you were saying that Hillary stole the Ohio Primary- I know I thought that was what you were saying.

Somewhere I need to tell someone how unhappy I am about Hillary “teaming up” with McCain in this way. Just dismayed. And as of this moment feeling as though I could not vote for her should she be the nominee. I know every one of us has said we would vote for whatever Democratic nominee was selected. But I notice my gut reacting to her tactics of late in the same way my gut has been reacting to Bush and friends the last 8 years, what is that advice, “go with your gut!”? there is always Nader i keep thinking. I hope she knocks it off, because if she is Dem. nom. McCain wins. IMHO

I took Raven’s to be snark, but I don’t know anyone very well. Anyway, we’ve been EPU’d, so he may be gone.

Once the North Vietnamese learned that his father was CinCPAC, they tried to release him early as a POW for propaganda. He refused the offer.

I think McStain literally suffers from some form of mental illness. I do not think he’s qualified at all to be in charge of our military and nuclear arsenal.

Plus, I don’t have time to get into the countless cases of where he’s been wrong over the years on his positions, as history has now shown. This “qualified” argument has always baffled me. What does this mean? As Obama says, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld have the longest and most impressive resumes in DeeCee. Are they qualified to lead?

From Wiki:

In July 1968, McCain’s father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[2] McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:[31] The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[36] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[42] McCain’s refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[43]

I think that his military record is fair game. If he was a hero in uniform he deserves full credit. If he screwed up- well we should know that too.

Turning down an opportunity to leave the prison DOES sound pretty heroic.

precisely, heh. that never entered my pea-sized lizard-brain. oh woe.

think we’ll survive?

merky at 278? u gotta problum, perhaps? file it.

McBush was CO of naval airgroup in Florida

This is exactly why this is a no-win zone for Dems, if it is true that he was a battle unit commander. And why Hillary’s framing Barack in this way feeds completely into the Republican pro-war frame and damages the Dems nationwide.

But not to prolong this thread, can we get a link to McSame’s actual command history, instead of his father’s?

The greek attitude toward heroes was saner than ours… they were afraid
of them because they were usually violent and inhumane in their actions
regardless of the “good” that came of them. Courage is not exactly the
same and is a better qualification than rash conduct.

Can anyone point to anything substantial that Obama has accomplished — please don’t respond with Clinton bashing. Answer the question, don’t go negative — what has Obama actually done besides his 2002 speech.

I won’t bash Clinton. But clearly you haven’t examined his Illinois State legislative record, which is highglighted by a State Political Ethics Law…one that has been critical in obtaining the arrests and fining of dozens of crooked politicians in that State since its passage. In addition he authored and had passed dozens of bills on issues as diverse as the environment (Great Lakes Water Quality and Preservation, toxic dumps in urban areas, etc.), low-income housing, predatory lending…and so on.

In the Senate he helped negotiate Treaties with former Soviet States to allow US and UN inspections and safegaurding of nuclear materials, whether weapons, waste from reactors, or medical waste. He was also a co-author of Bills to ban the use of land-mines and another to outlaw cluster bombs.

Obama has served more time as a legislator than Clinton, has won more elections, and apssed far more substantive legislation.

Now, I ask YOU to say how Hillary voted on those Bills cited above…and to specify what substantial legislation she has authored and successfully passed in her tenure in the Senate that relates to foreign affaires?

I’m not arguing with that. I really don’t think there’s that much to argue with his military career. Although he bailed out of a couple of aircrft, it’s not like the military just writes in off. If you lose a military pistol, you better have a damned good explanation and be prepared to fill out paper for a long time.

I just don’t think there’s anything to nitpic about his military service, and to try to is likely to come across as slandering a hero.

going upstairs for a minute

Yes Crosstimbers,
I remember it well. Also sirens in school, practicing what to do just in case; in fear of the Atomic bomb……..
The American dream really working!
……….and THEN Reagan taking it apart bit by bit, the Iran/Contra BS and the secrecy about so much of it to this very day, buried still! Bush One continuing the process and Clinton (once a hero to me) continuing the same process and giving the Repubs THEIR DREAM………..destroying the middleclass with his so called “Free trade”.
I just have not FORGOTTEN any of it!
so I’m not that over 60 person who wants Hillary to get the nomination!

I saw Obama talk about this recently, and as often the case, he put it as well as I’ve heard anyone put it. He really emphasized this part of McCaint’s past and talked about how St. John should be praised for those actions, and then launched into a detailed analysis of how wrong McCandyCain has been over the last decade or so especially on the foreign policy front. I don’t think Obama will have any problem handling the Noize Machine.

thanks for the info.

personally, I’m sick of hearing the repubbles and their MSM repeater-signals snipe at ANY of the Democratic candidates for lack of qualifications.

the more we trot out & repeat the specific details of why our crew is thoroughly qualified, the higher the level and power of the discourse.

Consider it, whatever you may have thought it was, filed.

I agree. I thought he did an excellent job.

I’ve seen some links around here to pretty detailed breakdowns of both of their Senate records (never saved them, but should be easy to find). It was pretty eye-popping to see how much more Obama has done than Clinton, even though she’s been there longer. His high amount of “present” votes does bother me, but this common compliant that he hasn’t accomplished anything is really quite laughable.

done ;->

whatever “little folks” meant to you, i know my legs are long enough to reach the ground and my neck strong enough to hold my head up.

P E A C E

All I’m saying is if he has to make the case to the 60+ voters, there is no time like the present. That is a sizable group of voters. The Democratic party cannot afford for them to bolt to McCain.

Look, I said I did not care for the remark and that it was not helpful.
My disagreement with most of you is that I do not think it constitutes campaining for McCain.

Now, do you really think that was her intent? I don’t.

I think we have two great candidates. I will support either one them happily.

I would have said that two weeks ago (in fact, I think I did). But Hillary’s campaign has gone really dark. Her campaign is constantly comparing Obama to Rove, and now Ken Starr! Now she is attempting to shift the debate over to “foreign policy experience” (i.e. years in the Senate)when, in the real state of the world McCain “trumpos” (that was the word she used) both on “experience”. The problem here is that George W. Bush has more “experience”, George H.W. Bush had more “experience”, the Republicans in general have more “experience”.

If you run on “experience” without pointing out that there are substantial policy differences that are actually matters of JUDGEMENT…those words will come back to haunt you in a TV Ad. So will those compliments of John McCain. And, she is also giving McCain free attack points in the Fall election. Imagine an ad with Hillary berating Obama’s lack of experience!

The fact is Obama was in the Illinois State legislature at the time she voted for the IAUF. She made a major error in judgement. Now, it’s true that Obama’s criticism of the war wasn’t while he was a sitting Senator. But he WAS running for the Senate…and so his remarks could have easily bween used against him in a time when pandering would have been the more politically successful strategy.

He’s got integrity.

You keep blaming Penn. How about blaming Clinton? There’s no reason to think she isn’t doing anything other than expressing her true thoughts. This is how the DLC operates. Divide and conquer.

Given his circumstances, McCain did behave heroically in the Vietnam War. So did Duke Cunningham the crooked slobbering Representative now in jail for corruption. Being a war hero doesn’t say anything about a person other than they were a war hero. It dosn’t make or predict that such a person is or will be wise or a leader.

He was running for a State Senate seat when he made his speech. He was the incumbent and he had no challenger in either the primary or the general election that year. It is not true that he was running for the position he currently holds.

If she is promoting the R party then she has to be defeated. Time to spin a pair of checks to Obama.

Just saw this article about Hillary’s rush to ban Blackwater from Iraq that day after Obama refused to “rule out” using them and others in Iraq. Jeremy Scahill had this to say about Hillary:

I spoke with Scahill about the coincidental timing. “For over a week I tried to get Hillary Clinton’s campaign and Senate staff to issue a policy statement reflecting her position on her potential future use of PMCs in Iraq if she won the presidency. Silence. Then, the day after my story comes out revealing that Obama will not “rule out” using them, all of a sudden Hillary Clinton becomes the most important political figure in the US to call for a “ban” on Blackwater et al.” Scahill said. “Where was her call for a ban after [Blackwater’s controversial shooting of civilians at] Nisour Square?”

http://blog.wired.com/defense/…..ackwa.html

At first I was like, “What the hell is Obama doing!?!” But then when he explains it, it makes practical sense. Sure, I wish these mercenaries would be out of business, but they currently make up such a large percentage of our forces that it could cause some problems if they just disappeared tomorrow. Obama plans to have just about everyone out in the next year or two. Again, not an ideal position but certainly a huge step in the right direction.

Hillary uses this issue for political posturing. Disgusting.

Imagine this Republican TV ad this Fall.

If Clinton is the nominee:

Footage of Clinton:

“I think it’s imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold…Sen. McCain has done that”

Flow to gushing music

John McCain…Senator through four Presidents, a hero in the Vietnam War…advising Presidents of both parties through wars in the Persian Gulf, Afghanistan and the Balkans. Working with President Reagan he helped end the Cold War and brought freedom to millions in Easter Europe. Experience ansd Service to America…he REALLY has it!”

Now the one if Obama is the nominee

“I think it’s imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold…certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you’ll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy.”

Narration: “If the former first lady and Democratic Presidential candidate says this about Obama, shouldn’t YOU ask if our nation would be safe?

Just a couble of little cuts and she places herself on the ropes and makes her own statements a campaign plug for the Republicans.

Thanks Hillary!

You know, I don’t think this was Hillary’s best moment. In fact, I don’t think it was very helpful to her campaign or our party. But, I don’t think it can be fairly categorized as ”campaigning for John McCain.”

Like so much of the criticism of Hillary, this is way over the top.
—

Why, going around with a national audience and keep promoting the R over yourself (the likley runner up in the D primary) and way over Obama (the likely winner of the D primary).

-
wasabi March 7th, 2008 at 7:17 am 22
Did I miss the part where she said Obama is not qualified?
———-
Yes, read the numerous other quotes she has spit out on this matter: “all Obama has is a speech he made in 2002″.

In any case the entire argument she is making is stupid as many have noted – McCain polices are a nightmare and he is a flip-flopper amoung other things.

“I haven’t read the Krugman piece but I would say that if you took the volatility out of markets that hedge funds introduce into them by limiting their activities you would be way ahead. I don’t think people realize that hedge funds account for only 1-2% of the total equity in world markets but that on any given day they account for 50% of the trades.”

I think we’ve found something to agree on, Hugh.

If the leverage used in trading oil futures contracts was curbed, prices would come down immediately.

He still needs to get the 60+ crowd on board. Now is the time, not later. She is pushing him to make the case. Because it is so important to whether we win in November, I’m ok with her comments. He needs to make his case now.

I live in a lily-white burg of OH, & I guess it’s imperative that I jump the gun and get cussed out by the township trustees for joining all the others putting up their Obama signs (too early, according to the local kingpinhead) – to match the votes we just gave Obama from our household.

I had a similar problem in our village in 2004 – when I left our Kerry/Edwards sign, plus a homemade “Sorry World, We Tried” one up for “too long” according to local regs. They sent us a letter. Husband + I, each lapsed attorneys, did a little research & found a case EXACTLY on point prohibiting such speech-squelching shenanigans. Called the town; they knew. They’d already been threatened w/suit by the ACLU.

So go bite your civic masters in the proverbial ass.

If Obama were doing the same Hillary bashing+McCain adoration that Hillary’s doing re him, I’d be similarly pissed @ him. But he’s not.

Where are the members of the Dem Party who care about THE PARTY and its future???? Or do they just care about their possible jobs in a future Clinton administration. [Rahm Emmanuel, I’m lookin’ at YOU.]

The Clintons & their enablers have become the “establishment” that they railed against in 1992. Quit, please, being so damn selfish!!!!

OT, but I didn’t know Tom Daschle is an Obama man! For some reason, I thought he was a Hillary supporter.

I think a very convincing case for Obama being the nominee over Clinton can be made by the recent Survey USA Poll that shows the results of polls of 500 voters in each of the 50-States to assess the way the Electoral Votes might swing.

What I found very interesting is that Obama not only wins more electoral votes, but has far more “safe states” (States which he leads by more than 6% over McCain) and places far more other States “in play” that Hillary loses easily to McCain. I was really stunned by the differences.

And note that this is just respondant statements. It doesn’t represent who might be “inspired/discouraged” by one candidate or the other to come out to the polls. So if there is an “anti-Hillary” effect it would likely benefit McCain in the close States in her column…while Obamamania might bring out more young and minority supporters.

The Obama candidacy better fits Deans 50-State strategy, and puts States that are normally red (in the Midatlantic areas of the South; the Midwest, and the Rockies) in contention and the Republicans back on their heels. Clinton, although winning Florida and Arkansas, puts Washington and Oregon in contentionloses most of the Rockies and places the Midwest into a bitter fight. Obama competes in Texas…Clinton would clearly lose it.

The list of such positives is long for Obama, and it’s something that Super-Delegates looking for coattails at the ballot box might seriously want to consider. Will Obama supporters stay home and anti-Clintonites come out in droves…thus ruining the chances of many Senators and Representatives?

They care about continuing the war. That’s what this is about.

Ah this is making me crazy. I can’t believe she is doing this.

I had finally convinced my Republican husband that it would be ok to vote for her, should she be the nominee. He hates Bush, he’s waiting for the party to come back to him, so he had said NO to McCain and the neocons. But he’s got years of antiHilary propoganda to overcome, and I’d finally gotten him to the point where I had convinced him she wasn’t a selfish, greedy, ambitious, powerhungry, wants-to-be-a-dictator, horrible (something) and it would be ok to vote for her. He was never gonna be a supporter, but he was gonna vote for her.

Then she pulls this garbage. Confirming in his mind everything he previously believed about her. Convincing him that her ambition trumps the good of the nation. Now, he tells me that if Obama is the nominee, he votes for the Democrat. If it’s Hillary, he votes for McCain.

My 20 year old college student daughter who is involved in politics for the first time, proud Obama supporter, feels the same way. If we’re gonna have four more years of Bush, it might as well be with a Republican, she says.

This makes me want to cry. I got them involved. I had them believing. Obama coming to Boise helped, but I had them convinced either one would be better – and she pulled this destructive, demeaning hateful (they see it that way) play into the same old tactics sh*t, and my fragile new participants don’t want to play any longer.

What’s more, she’s convinced me that I was the one in the wrong, and my husband was right. I’ll vote for her, but it will be reluctantly, and I’ll watch the returns in Idaho, where we could pick up both a Senate and House seat, but I believe won’t, if she’s on the ticket, and I’ll cry a little more for my country.

Somebody somewhere needs to convince her to stop. And I’ll tell you what – the monster comment aside, I don’t see Obama trying to destroy the party to ensure his win. I just don’t see it. That makes him the better leader, and the better choice.

Thanks for letting me vent. I had to get that out.

Thank you. You articulated my feelings [minus the Republican husband] so much more eloquently than I could.

Daschle was really cool on The Daily Show, wasn’t he??

Too bad about Rove’s suppressing the Native American votes that allowed Thune to take Daschle’s seat. I’d love to see him back!!

To say that she should “knock it off” is to imply that she’s just stuck a toe over an imaginary line. To me, she’s so over the line and off the charts that she has ventured somewhere from which there’s no return. If her recent actions aren’t disqualifying in the eyes of all Democrats, then yes, those who choose to see this as mildly excessive are enabling, allowing, permitting, rationalizing and ultimately endorsing this behavior.

Those who would characterize this post as calling Hillary’s comments “mildly excessive” aren’t really paying attention.

Exactly. Same goes for descriptions of this behavior as a “pie fight” or “poo flinging” on a par with the campaigns’ “vetting” operations. Minimizing the gravity of this is a form of apologizing for Clinton.

She’s crossed a “threshhold”, to put it in her terms.

I tried to address a civil criticism to CHS — that she was underestimating the substance of this McCain endorsement by suggesting this was a “pie fight” and could be dialed back. The moderators didn’t let it through.

Exactly, its time to dump her!

Brendan — I just checked with every moderator who has worked this morning, and none of them pulled a comment of yours. Sure the problem wasn’t on your end — because there’s nothing in the SPAM filter, either.

Musta got snagged by the NSA. Doodoodoodoodoodoo………

Mauimom, it’s just so frustrating to me. How you gonna unring that bell? She freaking TOLD PEOPLE MCCAIN WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER DEMOCRAT.

Everyone says it is the advisers – and I agree, they suck – but at the end of the day, she wants me to trust her judgement, believe hers is better, and that she will be a better leader. If she can’t judge that this is destructive, and overrule this horrible “advice” then I don’t think she IS ready.

Too true.

One thing, though. When she isn’t just an amoral warmonger I find Hillary Clinton to be an unimaginative and overrated politician, but even she knows how this McCain endorsement will be used. She felt she had to do it. It’s her trump card: she’s finally saying, look, we can’t have some interloper who’s not on board with the Project becoming President.

I think it’s just glitchy. It wasn’t the only comment that didn’t show up. In any case, it was in reference to your #103.

Rob — That’s a bit like the false debate that Clinton tried to gin up regarding “denunciation” versus “repudiation” of Farrakhan. Sorry I didn’t use the terminology that you wanted, but obviously every candidate is ultimately responsible for the words that come out of their mouths — just as they are responsible for the words and actions of their surrogates that they allow to be perpetuated or continued instead of pulled back and repudiated.

I thought that was obvious, frankly, and not worth spelling out in simple language, given that I wouldn’t allow my 4 year old to try and weasel out of doing something bad by blaming someone else for instigating it, but I guess I was wrong…

Hmmmm…I took a stroll through the SPAM filter and didn’t find anything at all from you — but I’ll peek again. Was it fairly soon after the comment time-wise?

Also — did you try a hard refresh? Sometimes when I have a comment seem to hang, a hard refresh frees whatever hiccup I’m having between my computer and Wordpress and my browser. Weird, but sometimes it helps…

Brendan — I think it’s there — is this it? It’s in the comment thread — might have just been a loading hiccup like I was talking about above. It was already in the thread…

They are both about the same so either about the same in policy – its really coming down to how they run the race. Also who they work with when in office – if Clinton is hanging with Mark Penn and John McCain when the red phone rings then its time to duck and cover. If she is going to make the same mistake with another war then the economy can duck and cover.

Clinton has a small edge in experience (and an edge in being a Washington insider for whatever good that is). Obama has a small edge in ability to rally people, especially young people.

Nobody is ready to be President before day one other than some VP’s.

Clinton “kitchen sink win” is -likely- going to be a loss that finishes her brand and makes Dems look bad. The media already has it out for her (though sent turned some fire power on Obama in time to ensure Clinton kept OH and TX… the Canada memo thing which some reports yesterday said was actual a Clinton aid that did it; hows that for spin what you did is blamed on your opponent before the biggest remaining primary and corrected 6 weeks before PA) but now that she is going kitchen sink it really bad.

It can be a help since when the media attacks that is a turn off also. But Clinton is putting herself out there on a ton of stuff. For example they have Andrea “froth bubble” Greenspan on her case who hates her but they have good lines. For example she said she was on some of these First Lady (First Spouse) missions and it was actually “tea and cookies” and some other tool pulling out the line of I don’t know how much experience comes from flying into a country with “Sherly Crow and Sinbad”.

The way she is framing it is stupid and she has left herself open to grass roots annoyance or shock, comedians, pundits, and haters. Some would argue that everyone is out to get her – but that is not the case (powerful corparate backing, and strong support in most states and nationally comes to mind. Yes there is male/female divide in the exit polls – as is there a divide along race, but then some people vote on who they want to have a beer with also).

In any case Obama has the counter attack of judgement which should work based on the lead he has. Also that is the winning argument in the general.

What I like to see here is some people taking a stab at why she is going with this strategy, beacuse all this bull from both sides is just “fun and games” (sickens me).

Yeah they are both the same and good in some ways – but also suck in many ways. Since they are being little kids again (edwards) we are not going to hear ZERO substance. To me I doubt I will withhold support (unless super delegates swing the democratic choice) – but I am likely going to send some money to Obama now. It is going to come down to JUDGES & VETOS. That being said show me the math…what is Clintons plan to get close to a tie by taking Puerto Rico in a landslide…

where is the outrage at Obama’s aide’s comments? Hillary a monster? Ohio voters stupid and poor? oh, and the best, just up at thinkprogress, top policy advisor ADVOCATING IMMUNITY for telecoms. I hope Dodd is happy with his endorsement, oh yeah, that’s right, he’s a sell out too… you people really need to get a grip

Thanks for taking the time to dig it up, but you needn’t have. I’ve just been repeating the same point all throughout the thread: please indulge me in letting me ride my hobby horse.

But, since you did: aside from the egregious sin of pronouncing the Republican candidate more fit than a Democrat, what really distinguishes this McCain endorsement from other types of political attacks such as vetting, or even subtle appeals to prejudice, is that with this one Clinton is really raising an issue of substance — she’s drawing a very clear line, a “threshhold” in her own words, that can’t be erased and forgotten (as demonstrated by cinammonape’s plausible sketch up above of the inevitable McCain ads). No one seems to be asking what the “threshhold” really is, or they think she’s talking about some “experience” she’s padding her resume with. I think, instead, that she’s obliquely saying to people other than rank and file Democratic voters that Obama’s unfit because he didn’t support the war, and continues not to.

This is my hobby horse because I have been frustrated by posts and comments to the effect that the war vote is a minor difference, or that, in any case, it’s in the past. Well, that’s not right. This is the fruit of having a canididate who voted for AUMF and Kyl-Lieberman and who hasn’t recanted either (Edwards did recant, but this distinction was dismissed by, for example, Jane Hamsher, as a technical or semantic one). She’s going to campaign against the anti-war movement not merely because she’s a “liberal hawk” but because she’s tactically boxed herself in.

Do click through the links in this post and the one below — there is a link and commentary about the Obama aide in both posts.

I am personally upset that Powers made that comment about clinton but i’m equally outraged that Wolfson compared Obama to Ken Star. We have discussed the immunity issue and unless you have been absent here, you would have seen that or are you just driving by to heave a pie?

Hi pups…

Perhaps Hillary’s spin on her track record has made me consider expanding upon my resume….

At one point I have worked with someone who had worked for NASA for awhile…

Then there was this physicist that I had worked for too…

So simply by working with these people their past experience can be considered part of mine…

Simply by proxy…

I had always suspected that I was fairly inquisitive and sometimes smart…

Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought this was an avenue worth contemplating…

No, I am not “heaving pie” (not really sure what that means anyway). I’m sorry I don’t have time to read through 335 comments. I mean that Firedoglake seems to be making a lot of posts about Hillary being negative, and with Obama not so much. With the dedication I’ve seen here to stopping telecom immunity, I just thought it would deserve its own seperate post. that’s all. I generally lurk, just registered here today. I am really astonished by the viciousness of many posters and finally thought I would have my say. It appears that opposing viewpoints are not very welcome…

Back on my hobby horse. Are they “both about the same” on the war? Does her endorsement of John McCain suggest an answer to you?

“the Republicans were the party of ideas” who said that? Hmmmmm, lemesee……OH YEAH! OBAMA said that! “Party of ideas” Not the party of F—UP Ideas, or the party of CRAZY as a shithouse RAT ideas. “The party of ideas” Yeah, Senator Clintons the Repugnantklaner in Dems clothing in THIS election, sure.

Check out Gary Hart’s piece at Huffington Post about HRC taking the
final step too far.

Actually many folks here support Hillary but are critical of her actions over the past few days so that is what you are reading. Christy, Jane and the rest take pain to make sure that we can have intelligent debates. Sure things get heated here but we don’t name call or belittle the supporters so i have to disagree with your assessment of this site. you want acrimony, try mydd, taylormarsh, or the orange overlord.

Indeed, McCain and Clinton have joined to attack Obama on the issue of the war and experience. But let us be clear, this is not about experience; experience is the bate and switch. Clinton has no more foreign policy experience than Obama and if she, by whatever machinations, becomes the nominee she will be crucified on this issue.
What her shameful McCain pandering is all about, is a not to subtle announcement to the powers that be that she is a neocon and as president will maintain a neocon foreign policy. This is the major difference between Clinton and Obama in my opinion.Fear mongering works beautifully for Clinton because her policy is to strike indiscriminately at the Arab world–keep Iraq going, threaten Iran (Persians in this case), keep the fiasco in Afghanistan afloat. While Obama’s policy is one directed explicitly against Al Queda–root them out in Pakistan, increase intelligence efforts, increase our military efforts in Afghanistan. This strategy in the end makes us safer, in two ways: we actually go after the groups who plan to do us harm, as opposed to terrorizing random Arabs as we do in Iraq. We also scale back the gazillion dollar cost of this neocon lunacy. Oh we may even be able to put some money towards repairing our wretched infrastructure!!!

But Obama cannot bluster, as Clinton does about, ‘keeping your fine white children safe from the brown hoards’. Why? because his foreign policy is measured and sensible, he is clearly not willing to bomb the Near Eastern world in preemptive strikes to quell the fears of American paranoids. For this reason he sponsored the bill against the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas, while Clinton knowing full well her election strategy would be the DLC neocon “show of muscle” voted against it.

Mind you, there is a sufficient number of warmonger democratic voters, I gather, but why would they choose Clinton over McCain. The “I like bombing the Middle East and love healthcare constituency”?!!!! Well, the truth of the matter is she won’t deliver on healthcare or any domestic reform. After such an atrociously divisive campaign she will have no coattails to speak of which means all of the pie-in the sky “I fight for the little people talk” which informs her domestic policy, is moot. She will have no mandate, nor support to enact even the most trivial reforms regarding health care, wages or anything for that matter. Yes, Clinton is a fighter, she fights tooth and nail against other democrats and she clearly loaths the progressive wing of the party.

Opposing views are always welcome here

your patronizing attitude is actually worse than the rabid mouth foamers. I have just been amazed by the turn the blogosphere has taken. People that I thought were dedicated to bringing back truth and reality to politics fall into the same roles as the rest of the media when they get that first whiff of power. I don’t agree with everything Clinton has done and I think that Obama has been Waaay overhyped and that many sites, this one included have decided to attach themselves to the obama bandwagon. I do not need a lecture from you about who has done what around here. I am saddened that the places I can go to become informed are dwindling down to a handful. And firedoglake has just become the latest I have to let go.

And firedoglake has just become the latest I have to let go.

Bye.

We don’t need lectures from you either.

What her shameful McCain pandering is all about, is a not to subtle announcement to the powers that be that she is a neocon and as president will maintain a neocon foreign policy. This is the major difference between Clinton and Obama in my opinion

This was my first reaction as well. Great comment.

I’m sure you want my involvement with this topic over & done with ASAP, Christy, but my outburst above (#116) was in reaction to SeaMBA’s comment (#89) which stated that “they [the people] re-elected him [dubya].” My point was, I thought, clearly directed at the 2004 elections and not the primaries of this year. Maybe a lame excuse, but pretty valid in terms of context I cited.

Lesson learned. With FDL’s “new & improved” system of referring to comments when writing a reply, one probably should always quote at least a little of the comment being addressed, in order to avoid confusion, because a lot of people don’t scroll back to see just what the original comment contained. Will do. Over & out, for now.

Well as you don’t know me, i can’t see how you can paint me as patronizing. But I realize that people are going to read into what they want and on that note, if you come back, welcome.

I like your screen name.

“What her shameful McCain pandering is all about, is a not to subtle announcement to the powers that be that she is a neocon and as president will maintain a neocon foreign policy. This is the major difference between Clinton and Obama in my opinion.”

This is exactly my opinion (see my comments above). Few people seem to hear this “dog whistle”. It’s not, after all, an appeal to rank-and-file Democrats to announce her affinity for John McCain’s neoconservatism.

See also Scarecrow’s take, which I refer to @36.

GBCW!

Thanks for the re-direct. I’m new to this!

Is Samantha Powers calling Hillary Clinton a “Monster” and effective or responsible way for Obama’s foreign policy teamm to express differences in policy? Is Susan Rice stating that neither Obama not Clinton is ready for a “3 AM call” helpful for either Obama or Clinton? Clinton did not say Obama was not ready, she said it is up to him to demonstrate that he is.

He pretty much did this back in 2002. Obama was preparing for a Senate campaign and said that he opposed the Iraq AUF as it would give Bush the power to attack Iraq without returning to the Senate to declare war. He said that he opposed invading Iraq until the UN inspectors had found real evidence of WMD’s that were a threat and could not be eliminated without an invasion. Those were unpopular positions at the time, and could have torpedoed his campaign given the war-rhetoric (and associations being made between Saddam and Al Qaida, and Saddam and 9/11) being played at high volume to the American public.

Clinton, the one that asserts that she has the experience to enter the Executive Office, also was tested in those weeks. Her response was to vote for the Iraq Authorization. She voted down all but one of the “restraining” and limiting Amendments submitted by Byrd, Levin and Dodd. She did vote for one “Byrd” Amemndment that she asserted was essential…but it failed. She went ahead and voted for the Amendment when others were saying that it offered Bush the power to invade at will. She “trusted” Bush.

So much for judgement…4000 dead US servicemen (and women) and trillions of dollars that will be thrown away in our economy, later. If there is a single reason that we will not get comprehensive health care, preserve Social Security, improve education, increase research on alternative fuels, improve the infrastructure, and “green” ourselves into light, productive industries…it’s the waste of resources and lives that is IRAQ!

Bill’s Hill is not running for President. She is running for the nomination – that makes Obama the enemy. McCain is a non-issue until she cinches the deal in August.

And, yes, we all get to see what a ego-maniacal neo-con dominatrix she is – and if Obama doesn’t wake up to that soon and assume the alpha mode, he will be permanently viewed as her bi-atch.

As opposed to what? The egomaniac, leather sub, pussy to his Jackie O (but more like Nancy Reagunnnnnnnnzap, only not as warm and cuddly) wannabe emasculating wife obamalamadingdong?