If our Democratic Party is being torn apart by this divisive and demoralizing Presidential primary, wouldn’t you expect Americans to turn away from the party in droves?
If the silliness of both candidates’ supporters made neutral observers sick and tired of partisan politics, wouldn’t you imagine that fewer Americans would call themselves Democrats?
If the long, drawn-out primary process was wearing people out and souring them on the party, wouldn’t you think the percentage of Americans who call themselves Democrats would go down?
WASHINGTON – More people say they are Democrats than said so before voting started in this year’s presidential contests while the number of Republicans has remained flat, a survey showed Thursday.
[snip]
The poll showed 52 percent call themselves Democrats, up from 45 percent in an AP-Ipsos survey in mid-December. Thirty-five percent say they are Republicans, about the same as December’s 37 percent.
Surveys in recent months have shown more people have favorable opinions of the Democratic Party than the GOP. There has also been far higher turnout in Democratic presidential primaries this year than in GOP contests, in part reflecting that Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama continue grappling for the nomination.
So when you read that "Democrats are in disarray" and "this primary system is killing the party" and "the GOP must be loving this," do not believe it. Because it is not true.
A majority of Americans now call themselves Democrats. That percentage rose throughout our Presidential primary process as our many compelling candidates debated across this country, proposing commonsense solutions to the problems faced by American families. And those candidates offered Americans an alternative to the corruption, warmongering, crony mismanagement, and inhuman callousness of the past seven years.
This process is working, and Americans are listening.
And they like what they hear. Americans are joining us in this fight to take back our country. They are turning out to vote in record numbers. They are opening their wallets and purses and piggybanks to our candidates in unheard-of amounts. They are investing in this campaign with their votes and their dollars and their time and their hearts. And Americans are calling themselves Democrats.
A great change is coming. The media mavens and press poohbahs will do everything they can to drown it out. They do not want us to hear it. But the numbers do not lie: our party is growing.
Change is now abroad in our land. Let’s be the change.
Related posts:
- Accountability Now Targets Jim Cooper for Primary Challenge
- When Democrats Sing Politico’s Praises, They Sing in the Key of Republican
- Obama’s Numbers Driving Democrats Down
- For Democrats, NY-23 is Heads We Win, Tails They Lose
- Two New York Dems Vote to Give Republicans Majority in State Senate: So, Who Will Primary Defector Hiram Monserrate?
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zed
Teddy!
We, in this home are Democrats.
Thanks Teddy. I think this is a very good point. Thanks for making it here. This may get even more people mobilized. We have to push back against the negative themes that benefit the pathetic republicans.
And acting… Numerous voter turn-out records have been shattered… and they ain’t voting Repug…! *g*
There’s a change coming all right. We are finally awaking to what it is the Republican Party stands for. Basically, hate and intolerence.
Hey, this is a good thought going into the weekend Teddy. I think you are right. Dislike the Power-loss issue, however.
thx.
Why would a liberal media posit such memes, suggest such ideas, and otherwise attempt to influence the way the public thinks about Democrats and Republicans?
Big voter turnout favors the Democrats. McCain. You are a sacrificial sucker. Perhaps Mr. McCain understands that.
The media loves conflict, and encourages it to our detriment.
Presently, for me, there is none worse than Nora O’Donnell.
I am very, very angry with Senator Clinton. But I suppose when it gets to pushing and shoving, if Clinton is the nominee I will vote for her. Lahoma has yet to come around to this way of thinking.
I’m sure Lahoma will come around by November, if need be… As a former, Nader Raider, I finally saw the light…! *g*
Republicans have remained flat? Love it.
Hillary Clinton and Bill. You two have really pissed my lady and I off lately. You two are ruthless and ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
That ad pop-up ad was fuckin’ annoying. It wouldn’t go away. Anyway, I guess it’s necessary, so it’s Ok.
Anyway. The problem here is how the dems have been doing this lately. Well, no. Not “the dems.” Hillary. Look, I was an Edwards supporter from tyhe beginning and hasd no preference between these two, really. But Hillary is now engaging inm a strategy of trying to hurt BOs chances in the gebneral election and then saying “Hey, don’t vote for him. He can’t win.” It’s bogus. And it better stop. Not that it maters here. McCain is gonna carry this state.
Agreed that the voter turnout has been astounding and it has been good for the party, I’m just suffering from Primary burn out and the hypocritical campaigning.
thanks for the positive take, Teddy
Ditto here. Well. Not my lady. She’s apolitical. But those are my sentiments exactly.
Posit meme’s. . .what kind of latte will you have?
And in more and more homes everyday, kiddo!
Hi Pade! We do need to make this point, here and everywhere. Watching the cablefests today, I am unsurprised that no one has mentioned this extraordinary poll result: we are a Democratic majority country.
Perhaps Mr Olbermann will think to mention it presently.
Take a break from it all before PA. No TV shows, no papers on the elction for a week or so. No columns about it. It’ll be good. I did it after NH.
Yeah. I needed a positive point of view on this. I’ve been pretty bummed out lately on account of Hillary bein’ a piece of poop.
1,779 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen TeddySanFran and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
EEE-doggies…Yeah!! You go TSF…nobody gets ta hang their heads!! Get mad as hell…put the heat on ALL the Dems ‘cuz THAT’s who’re gunna be makin’ the decisions. This is an election year for more’n President…this is the ONLY time we get ta really have an immediate impact on positions and votes of even “safe seat” Dems.
So you keep the volume up kid…jest point and holler!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER!!!
I got a phone call today from Voters for Peace, whom I’d never heard of. They asked for money and asked me to volunteer. I asked for a website. I went there and, lo and behold, it’s a place to go to support Nader. Nader, insufferably, is running and fucking with the process yet again.
Actually they dropped two, but that’s probably statistically insignificant. 37 then; 35 now. Still, it might be a trend. I can’t see voters drawn to the GOP field of candidates during their primary process — but that might be just me. ;)
I saw something on my surfing travels today…and if it gets legs it is going to get really uggggly and it is obvious that it is a Rovian really dirty tactic.
The candidates must stay above the fray and stop the BS.
Hillary at 3am will say: “I don’t care if there is a disaster in Mississippi, Texas, and Florida tonight because I was called a Monster today! I’m hurting!!!!!”.
Spit.
Heh, My wife is a Hill fan, but, she’ll vote for Obama in November…! ;-)
Not every possible candidate action is good for our party. Clinton’s recent Republican framing is severely damaging to our cause, IMHO. It’s one thing if a Rethug says that Obama doesn’t have enough experience, but it’s entirely another if a leading Democrat says it.
Let’s not be pollyannish here. If Clinton continues along with this strategy, it will hurt us in November.
I would guess that those who are supporting the GOP at the moment are the ones who are dragging their knuckles on the ground as they walk and who drool down their necks as they watch Fox News. ;-)
GW, I’m a reformed Nader Raider… I’m disappointed he’s running again…!
1,779 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Hang in there Lahoma..he’ll get it eventually!.. Remember, men need a little more time and a few more repitions…(maybe a board would work – my wife uses that pretty effectively).
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T QUIT!!
Thank you for that!!!
I have to post this from think progress, sorry it’s off topic teddy;
how the HELL is this president still in office?, how the HELL is rice still employed and payed by US?, how THE HELL was that not broadcast day and night during the hearings?
man
After a week like this one, I think looking at the glass half-full is really important.
Especially if it’s 52% full and still filling!
good advice,
I’m devoting my weekend to the backyard (the weeds have taken over) with only a few slight breaks for puppy luvin and roler blading *g*
Senator Clinton. You need to stop disappointing us. You may want to start acting presidential. What don’t you understand about this? Perhaps giving us a reason to like you would also help. If you are the nominee and lose to McCain, who exactly to you think I’m going to blame. McCain? Not hardly. The implications are far reaching. Do you grasp what I’m getting at? Many of us are maybe running out of patience with your act.
there are people who were so sure the president was right, so invested their entire reputation on the validity of this administration, that they cannot possibly agree they were wrong
cognitive dissonance and escalating commitment
those are the two conditions that bring us where we are today
Thank you!
Wouldn’t it be great if Obama and HRC spent 20% more time in any given speech bashing McCain as they do bashing the other?
The thing that will win this campaign is crushing McCain and the republicans. Each of them should be trying to outdo the other at crushing the r’s. The more they bash McCain, the less harsh they will look in bashing each other.
Thanks Teddy. Positive works. In all things. We must all try to remain positive. We can only control our own affect and must remain positive in spite of everything.
I remain a Senator Obama supporter. But I cannot stand Bush and McCain.
Is anybody out there as angry with the Clintons as we are?
did I say there were only two conditions?
well there are a number of them
I would like to add number three, that would be the condition known as “intelectually deficient”
that one is high on the list
Thankfully, neither can the majority of the rest of America!
Exactly Perris. They’re a little embarrassed by what they’ve done, so admitting at this point they were wrong in supporting Bush would result in a lot of angry finger pointing by their friends and relatives! Dumbasses.
Clinton has started most of this.
Let’s remember we “hear” the candidates through the TraditionalMedia filter — and TradMed is invested in conflict, tearing down Democrats, and making John McCain look like a statesman above the fray.
Seeking out and spreading wide the statements our candidates make about McCain — and those made by really eloquent talkers like Doctor Dean — is our job. We need to make sure voters hear what’s wrong with McCain, because TradMed won’t.
Perris, as I commented on Marcy’s Darth thread, notice the stridency of Dick Clarke’s memos as it got closer to 9/11… Culminating in the Aug 26th PDB; “Bin Ladin Determined to strike…!”
Forget about the 3am call, he missed ‘em all…! 8-(
The Republican Party (the party of liars, thieves, bigots and perverts – the new LTBP Party) marches in lockstep to whatever talking-point-du-jour is emailed to them. That the Democrats get in each other’s face over issues is equivalent to a cardinal sin in their universe. You can see it every time you look/listen at/to Hannity, Matthews, et al. And Republican campaign staffers don’t do stupid shit.
“The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”
Fuck em.
uh oh KO on
Wow per Clinton
Monster comment was an ad hoc attack
but
Ken Star comment was historical reference
She is making it hard for me to take her seriously right now
I’m bullshit, Kiddo. ;-)
I wished Obama’s aide had NOT resigned today. By resigning, she fell into the same trap that the republicans put Edwards’ female bloggers.
We needed Obama to stand up for a woman’s right to have her own opinions for crying out loud! That said. He’s a better person than Hillary any day.
Sorry Teddy, you’re living in a dream world. If Obama is nominated, millions of Clinton supporters (especially white workig class folk and Latinos) will either vote for McCain or won’t vote. If Clinton is nominated, Obama supporters (especially young voters and new voters) will be infuriated. Millions of them won’t vote for Clinton.
Remember, most states are not up for grabs. New York, California, Massachusetts and many others are going democratic no matter who is nominated. Texas, South Carolina, Mississippi, etc. are going Republican whether conservatives hate McCain or not. The states that matter (Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, maybe New Mexico, maybe Nevada, maybe Louisiana, maybe Virginia, maybe a few others) need a united Democratic Party if those electoral votes are to be had. With either Obama or Clinton as our nominee we will not have a united Democratic Party. The Democrats are on the verge of losing the most winable presidential election in a generation. There’s plenty of blame to go around.
The Democrats have exactly one chance; they need to nominate a candidate that both Clinton and Obama supporters can agree on. After neither Clinton or Obama wins the nomination on the first ballot, all the delegates are free to vote for whomever they want. We desperately need a compromise candidate. The only logical one is the white male now hanging out at home in Tennessee. Al Gore anyone?
Denying the gravity of the situation (which progressive blog world is doing in a big way) is a recipe for electoral disaster. Without a compromsie candidate, it won’t matter whether Clinton or Obama is to blame, we will have lost.
In politics, only one thing counts; winning!
Hillary is a Monster….no different than the current crop we have in the White House. Does America want change? Some do and those are the ones voting for Obama. The End.
So that means it’s also good for Repuplicans, right?
/s
tuttle, it’s as if bush is on the same team as al qaeda, to stand down, to take vacation, to shoe the aids delivering that pdb on their way
if a novel were written about the decisions this man has made which helped bin laden, we wouldn’t believe it because it is too far fetched we wouldn’t have that president in irons
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..90420.html
I feel the same way. He could have done this tactfully, calling a truce to the back and forth, and even cite Pelosi, and rise above the fray.
I agree especially since she won’t apologize for what Wolfson said. My hope is that he rehires her and basically tells the media that while her comments may have not been appropriate, they are no more inappropriate than that of Wolfson. My solution to all this extra energy (frustration) is to make phone calls this weekend to PA
I still haven’t given up on The Hague…! *g*
So, WigWag, if I make it to Denver as a delegate from Texas, I’ll go for Gore.
I clearly understand your point. And agree with what you are telling me. But somehow I wish that the forced to resign aid could have thought of a little better way of saying the same sort of thing. Hope you are having a good Friday night. ;0)
The Friday dump. Lord, he is pathetic.
I agree Kemo & Wobblybits. Hire her back and then use it as a way to go CONSTITUTIONAL-BATSHIT-CRAZY on Hillary’s ass by stating there is such a thing as opinions and the freedom of speech. If she doesn’t like it, then she shouldn’t be running for the presidency since the Constitution is the base of it.
Me too. I wish she was still there.
I am not willing to go on record as thinking of Senator Clinton as a “monster”. But I will however state that I view the Senator as ruthless.
Yep. I wished she had said something to the effect of: “What I said was insulting to those who have not seen what we’ve seen in the White House over the last eight years”.
Or something like that. ;-)
I’m having a good night, but am thinking of hitting the hay early. Winter has kicked my butt to the curb. I am literally exhausted. Can’t explain it, but let’s just say my eyelids for the past week have felt like I have a banana on each eyelid. LOL
Monster doesn’t mean what it used to, just like “pimp” doesn’t.
On KO, Obama won Texas (delegate wise)
I will state for the record however, that I view George W. Bush as a war criminal. Now if one wants to call a war criminal a monster, I would have no objections.
If your goal is to elect a democrat, that would be wise.
The one thing the Republicans really dislike is being known as torturers, since they are torturers, I think it needs to be rubbed in whenever there is an opportunity.
Republicans endorse torture and will do anything Torture Man Bush tells them to do….like all good Germans.
Achtung Baby.
Now there’s an image. . .I’m Chichita Banana and I’m here to say!
Yeppers, the CIA would certainly be lacking the necessary tools… WTF?
You sleep tight tonight my friend. Lahoma says hello. She reads your comments.
okk and Lahoma
The Democratic Party primary process continues and all eyes are on Wyoming. Wyoming? Gosh, I bet the people in Wyoming are surprised.
OldMayfly
LOL So true. I can’t count how many times I’ve called George Bush & Dick Cheney a Monster on my blog over the time I’ve had it. The word just slips off my fingers as I type.
Monsters are no longer green skinned, scaly, and breathing fire. Nope. They’ve taken a human form and play dirty tricks to win elections and to keep Americans diverted from the real issues of the day. Modern day Monsters they are.
” So when you read that “Democrats are in disarray” and “this primary system is killing the party” and “the GOP must be loving this,” do not believe it. Because it is not true. “
The MainStreamMedia is pushing this view because they are afraid of the people getting any more energized, which is not good news for their corporate masters.
” A majority of Americans now call themselves Democrats. That percentage rose throughout our Presidential primary process as our many compelling candidates debated across this country, proposing commonsense solutions to the problems faced by American families. And those candidates offered Americans an alternative to the corruption, warmongering, crony mismanagement, and inhuman callousness of the past seven years.”
Wyoming is now expecting a record turnout! I want ever state to be contested because I want McCain’s state turnout to be compared to the Dem turnout.
Bwahahaha! Evil Laugh Time
The primaries may not be bad for the party, but Clinton’s statements of late sure are. She is killing Obama’s chances in the general, and I, for one, am getting sick and tired of it. That’s the Clinton way, though. It’s all about them, the hell with anyone else.
Raven, my eyelids are in no shape right now for dancing. Thanks for the jingle though! LOL!
Raven, Have a safe trip to the airport. There’s a winter snow warning just north of you.
Everyone here is going to vote for the Dem nominee, from what I see.
Which means the revolution is 20 or so years ahead.
Great post. For the first time the primary season isn’t over after the first two contests. Every state is getting a chance to weigh in.
I think Howard Dean and the fifty state strategy has been enhanced by this process not hurt. As always there are problems but on balance I think this Democratic Party primary is a good thing.
Lot of new Democratic voters. People hate Bush and hate the war.
Great ad idea.
I have a friend in Laramie and she is excited that they (dems) matter, but I quickly pointed out that odds are against her that she’ll matter (caucus, red states, etc.) So we will see how significant or insignificant she is tomorrow.
Sorry for the sarcasm, probably a sign that I should push back from the tubes sooner rather than later
I will, Kiddo. Give Lahoma a big high five and a wink from me. ;-)
I’m mad about the Starr comment. I’m mad about her not apologizing for that.
Just remember that Clinton and Obama are fighting it out with each other now. That’s the nature of politics. They’ll have plenty of time to go after McCain. He doesn’t stand a chance against either of them, assuming elections are fair.
I’ve been away from most of the news. Did I miss something?
Yea, looks like we’ll dodge it, most often the mountains hold the real bad stuff back. thx
same shit, different day
I had a friend one time, at least I thought he was my friend
For he came to me, said “I ain’t got no place to go”
I said “take it easy man, you can come home to my house,
I’ll get you a pillow where you can rest your head”
Took him home with me, let him in my house,
Let him drive my Cadillac that I could not afford
When I found out he’d been messin’ around with my baby
You know I’m mad like Al Capone (I’m burnin’ up)
I said I’m mad (I’m burnin’ up)
Like Sonny Liston yeah (I’m burnin’ up)
You know baby I’m mad (I’m burnin’ up)
Like Cassius Clay (I’m burnin’ up)
You know I’m mad (I’m burnin’ up) you know I’m mad
Yeah baby, alright baby (I’m burnin’ up)
I’m mad, come on (I’m burnin’ up)
I think the “monster” statement was stupid, and I’m glad she resigned. It has nothing to do with whether she’s a woman or not. As far as Clinton goes, I wish she would just stop the attacks too. Just stick to the facts…(Dragnet). McSame…he’s just plain wrong and a hypocrite that cowtows to Torture Manboy…huge mistake.
The Dems need to stay above the fray. Stop it. The Dems have the country with them, don’t throw it all away with negativity.
Keep the goal in mind…stop the Neocons. Take back the country.
Three-quarters of each candidates’ current supporters say they’d be happy to see the other as the nominee, and that’s in the heat of a primary battle.
A convention has the remarkable capability to heal.
I don’t see the primary tearing the party apart. Not if we’re growing.
ymmv
1,779 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen WigWag:
Respectfully, there is a reason Mrs. Clinton is losin…her negatives are outta sight and risin and of the two candidates, she is the one losin’ supporters over the mud (especially the McCain endorsement)… they’re droppin’ offa Clinton BIG TIME!
I think if you look at the polls you’ll find that Obama beats McCrazy by 12% and countin’…I’ve only seen one poll that shows Mrs. Clinton above even with ‘im. The trends in the primaries, includin Ohio and Texas show Obama makin’ up HUGE differences in very short periods (in Ohio he made up 12-15% in the last 10 dayz and Texas he was 18% out with 3 weeks ta go and made it a dead heat). The heart and soul of the new , energized voters, the young and the folks of color are cuttin’ for Obama 3-1 and they ain’t leavin’ ‘im.
So don’t fret…Clinton has been given orders by her bosses ta take Obama down and drive a wedge in the Democratic Party so that women and hispanics stay home or vote for McCain…and it ain’t workin’.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND KEEP YER EYES ON THE TARGET!!
i’m sure ko wil be once again compared to rush, o’liely, etc. because he is calling her on the double standards
Another way to look at the Ken Starr comment is to think this man put Hillary & Bill through hell, so in essence, she’s saying Obama and his campaign are doing the same thing. She’s attacking from a weak point. Calling her a Monster and her reacting the way she did (calling for the resignation of Obama’s aide) is also attacking from a weak point.
Adult temper tantrums are never pretty to watch. Nor are their double standards.
Awwwwwwwwwww, poor Hillary.
It’d be even worse if it were not true.
The perspective from where I operate is that I try to imagine what a McCain Administration will mean to this country and the world. Coming on the heels of the Bush years.
And when that comparison is made, “look out now cuz I’m a comin”!
Shhhhhh. *g*
The “monster” statement was stupid and she could have dodged that bullet…IMO it was the BBC interview that was fatal for her.
cool *g*
“a gaffe in politics is when you speak the truth” Milbank
KO: “[Obama] didn’t say, ‘She’s not a monster as far as I know.’”
Ha ha! I love Keith.
Well, I’m going to bed. Nite nite everyone. ;-)
Thank you Teddy, I needed that. “The process is working.”
Yup.
Loose lips sink ships.
Oh, he’s just as bad as billo.
I did like Dana Milbank’s statement that it was an accidental victory for Obama…!
FWIW, it was Howard Wolfson I believe who made the Ken Starr reference and he did it response to calls for “investigations into Clinton Real Estate deals and tax returns.”
Kinda like Ken Starr did.
So, it may be a pain but there is a history that would lead to the comparison.
Obviously YMMV
Nite Kay, Mrs. Frog says Ribbitt.
Aloha, Kay!
I just wrote a letter to the campaign stating that I think that they should bring Powers back and why I think they should bring her back. I think his response was weak (lookie here, I can criticize my candidateof choice) and would like for him to not worry about what Hillary or campaign thinks and in fact point out the numerous examples of hypocrisy
1,779 dayz and the killin’ goez on and on and…
Citizen Raven:
I’m sorry I’m sooo late with this, but I’m sorry fer yer loss…how are ya doin’?
It’s the price a growin old…”jest another hole in the heart”. Hang in there Bro.
KEEP THE FAITH … LOVE IS THE ONLY THING THAT DOESN’T DIE…EVEN IF YA WANT IT TO!!
The pic that KO just had up of Chertoff—he looked like an alien from another planet.
Well… my friend, I will say I will vote Democratic next November. I get angry (in this case at HRC) and calm down fairly fast. My lady? Pehaps not as quickly. Have a good Friday night. ;0)
Yea bro, it’s ok. My uncle was 90 and outlived my pop, who was 4 years younger, by almost 5 years. He had a rich life and I want to be with my aunt and cousins to let em know I care.
He looks like he could use a porkchop sammich
Axelrod needs to get those lips under control. This week..Goolsbee, Power, and Brennan..all saying the same thing..don’t believe what you hear from the campaign. Not good.
He isn’t an alien…?
Teddy! I’ve only seen one MSM article about the incredible turn-outs that have occurred in the Democratic campaigns…and that article disparaged them. After reading it I thought this person doesn’t WANT to see the facts.
His argument was that the Democrats have often had higher turnouts than Republicans and didn’t win in the General election…and pointed out the years that the Democrats were running against incumbents like Reagan and Nixon. Then he said…but wait…don’t think that’s true of only the Democrats…then pointed out that Clinton drew fewer in the primaries (he was the incumbent) than the Republicans. Then the guy went and stirred the molasses even further…pointing out that the one with fewer turning out sometimes do lose, even if the person is an incumbent (as in Bush I and Carter) or an annointed successor (such as Gore).
He sort of missed the whole point that this year both Primaries are contested, and there isn’t an incumbent or selected successor. So the numbers should be high in both parties. Particularly with the great diversity within the Republican race. You’ve got a craggy old war hero cloaking himself in the mantel of Ike ~ although Ike did a whole lot better at West Point. Then there was the Bible Thumper a la William Jennings Bryan. But the “cross of gold” was being toted by Ron Paul…a gynecologist who wants to jail women and other gynecologists for involvment in abortions, and yet who argues he wants government out of our lives. Thus he wishes to become President of the Dissipated State of Anti-Matter. And then there’s the plutocratic son of a Detroit auto scion, spending away his Hearstian geld to his families distress. So there was a lot of choice out there. There was a hard-nosed Italian cop womanizer, and a guy that was like Ronald Reagan in the prime…of his midday nap. There were even a couple of hard-core nativist Birchers. But it was a wasteland at the Republican polling booths.
But with such choices and an open field…with no annointed successor where were the Republicans? Sadly for THEM, they all avoided any criticism of the Republican in office…except that is, the guy with the idea to strip women from the Constitution, gold and silver from the National Parks, and taxes down to where the Federal Government would have to sell off Lincoln’s Monument for second-hand marble). Why support a loon when there were sane people against Iraq (at least NOW) across the other side of the room.
The Democrats had their flops too…but there was enough charisma and spit to make it interesting and ideas that were surprisingly hopeful despite what the last 7 years have brought. The campaign hasn’t been all about “Hate Bush”…it’s been about much that is forward looking.
Maybe it’s good that it hasn’t gotten too wonkish! Twenty minutes of Hillary running down the rabbit holes of how her Health Care proposals require mandates but don’t have compulsory enforcement is sufficient to reduce the costs of prescription anaesthesia by itself. Put that in surgeries across America! Use it to replace No-Doz!
I don’t think that people are all that worried about the Primaries…what they fear is that some sort of end run will be pulled that will allow an individual who didn’t win a majority of the elected delegates to win the candidacy. If not sure looking at the majority of voters gives a fair count, since caucuses reduce the electoral turnout in those States that held them. Theoretically these should be amped up to reflect relative registration (which would be whgat the delegate counts do).
Couldn’t have been better if it was planned, in my view. The press is now allowed to ask each other, ‘Well, is she a monster?’
Also, every day the name Ken Starr is in the news is a good day for Obama, in my view. Wolfson is an idiot for bringing it up. Absolute lunacy.
or it could just be massive hypocrisy given the goings-on in the Clinton campaign
Please stop with that smear. None of those folks said not to believe what Obama says.
Teddy, I respectfully and regretfully disagree. While three quarters of each candidates supporters say they would support the other candidate, in a closely divided election that is almost certainly not enough. In the swing states we will need in excess of 90 percent of the democrats to support our candidate if we are to hare to have any chance.
And do you really see this convention as being healing? Neither candidate will have enough pledged delegates to win on the first ballot. The only way one candidate wins on the first ballot is if they get enough super delegates. If super delegates decide the nomination it will infuriate the supporters of whichever candidate loses. If Florida and Michigan aren’t resolved by the convention, do you think that the fight over whether to seat those delegates is going to heal the party. I doubt it.
Forty to fifty percent of the convention delegates are going to leave the convention dissatisified with the outcome. That’s why I think that without a compromise candidate we’re doomed.
One more thing, I know you read the posts on this site. Does it sound to you like supporters of either candidates are ready to throw their support to the other candidate? And we’re all democrats hers. What about the voters who sometimes vote democrat, sometimes vote republican and have gotten used to voting for Reagan, Bush the second, etc.
We need Al Gore, or John Edwards or someone, anyone, as a compromise option. With Obama or Clinton we will lose.
No.but they give opinions that contradict the candidates..that is not the kind of stuff you go on the record with the media especially when that person is identified as a senior advisor.
Actually it might be enough. I saw a poll on a lot of sites this week by I believe SUSA that polled both Clinton and Obama against McCain in all 50 states. IIRC, Clinton pulled 276 electoral votes and Obama 280 with both winning but winning with a different mix of states.
1,779 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen WigWag:
“While three quaters of each candidates (sic) supporters say they willsupport the other candidate, in a closely divided election election this is certainly not enough:
This is NOT gunna be a closely divided election unless Mrs. Clinton steals the nomination.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…THEY’RE IN THE LAST THROWS!!
Your not paying attention. The election will be decided by electoral votes not the popular vote (remember Bush v Gore?). Most states (and the electoral votes that go with them)are already locked up by one party or the other. There are a handful of swing states. In the swing states, the electorate is always closely divided (that’s what makes them swing states.) Neither party will win a dramatic victory in the swing states. Without a united democratic party we will lose those states and we will lose the election. The dye is cast. Clinton and Obama (and their surrogates and supporters) have already so alienated their opponent’s supporters that they will never get the 90 percent of democratic votes needed to win the swing states.
The convention won’t unite us, it will make a bad situation worse unless we can find a candidate we can all agree on. The number of people who fit that bill is remarkably small. One person who does is the rightful winner of the 2000 presidential election.
I beg to differ. Hillary “Godzilla” Clinton has stepped way over the line. I am a long-time Democratic activist and I WILL NOT under any circumstances vote for her if she is the Democratic nominee. While I would never vote for McCain, if the unwillingness of myself — and many others like me — to support Clinton leads to a Republican victory in November, then so be it. The blood will be on her hands. She has placed personal ambition over principle or party. There will be no forgiveness.
dakine O1, I saw looked at those polls, especialy the SUSA poll. They all gave Florida to either Clinton or Obama. Without Florida, Clinton or Obama don’t get the electoral votes they need to win.
I live in Hollywood, Florida (east coast of Florida between Ft. Lauderdale and Miami). Democrats are hopping mad down here by the treatment of the national party. We didn’t pick the primary date, the republican controlled legislature did. If Florida’s delegates are not seated, Florida democrats will be incredibly demoralized. Demoralized Florida democrats mean a McCain win in this state. If there is a revote in the form of a primary or caucus, the supporters of whichever candidate loses will be incensed. This will drive down democratic turnout in a general election. This mean McCain wins Florida and the general election even according to the polls that you site.
And there’s one more thing. Florida’s governor Charlie Crist is extremely popular. Even I almost like him and I hate republicans. If McCain chooses him as a his vice presidential candidate this is a huge boost for him in this state. Please, please, please, don’t believe the hype. The democrats could easily lose Florida. If we do, our chance of taking the general election goes down precipitously. Whether you like Obama or Clinton, it’s time to realize that neither of them can unite us. If we aren’t united, we will lose!
That’s right Spike 3905. The only thing you forgot to mention is that their are hundreds of thousands of Clinton supporters who feel the same way about Obama that you feel about Clinton. That’s why we can’t win with either one.
We need a compromise candidate.
If Florida delegates chosen in clear violation of Democratic Party rules ARE seated, many Democrats across America — not just in the state of Florida — will be incredibly demoralized. And if those delegates contribute to a Clinton nomination, expect a rupture in the party that will make ‘68 look like a romp through Grant Park. The impact will be far greater than what might happen in the state of Florida.
I am not willing to support any compromise candidate crowned in Denver by superdelegates who has not gone through the process. The candidate with a clear majority of pledged delegates earned through the primary and caucus process deserves the nomination. If that is Clinton, then I will swallow my pride and support her. But I will not support her or anyone else who is anointed by superdelegates despite their lack of popular support. That’s no different than the injustices perpetrated by the Supreme Court in 2000.
I don’t disagree with you. I think you’re right. If Florida delegates are seated based on the results of the original primary, Obama supporters will be demoralized. If Clinton is nominated it will just be another reason for them not to vote for her. Advantage McCain!
If Florida delegates are not seated, Florida democrats will be infuriated and less likly to vote in the general election. Advantage McCain!
If Florida holds another primary or caucus and Obama wins, Clinton supporters will cry fowl and believe they were robbed after their victory in Florida the first time around. Advantage McCain.
If Florida holds another primary or caucus and Clinton wins, Obama suppoters will believe the results are unfair and that Florida delegates should be excluded for violating the rules in the first place. Advanatage McCain.
Winning the nomination means absolutely nothing if the general election is lost.
It is less and less likely everyday that either Senator Obama or Senator Clinton can win a general election against Senator McCain. It may make us feel good to pretend otherwise but we do so at our own peril.
No, I don’t think so. The blood will be on the hands of anyone who could have voted for the party’s nominee but chose not to. She will have absolutely no control at that time. And you will have chosen to continue the current “torture is OK” environment that we have come to know and love.
I have no confidence that Clinton would be preferable to McCain. Her only unbending commitment is to her own naked ambition. She has no lasting principles. She voted YES for war in Iraq because she thought that was the politically safe thing to do. She speaks positively about McCain for the sole purpose of undermining Obama — with no regard to how her words could be used in a general election. If she gets the nomination without a majority of pledged delegates I will abstain from supporting her with a totally clear conscience. In fact, my conscience would never permit me to provide even grudging support to someone who represents everything that is wrong with American politics.
WigWag…your statements are not based upon any impirical evidence.
Obama is according to this Survey USA Poll of all 50 US States with Electoral Votes Assessments the hands-down BETTER candidate against McCain.
Clinton takes only solidly blue states, and even not all of those.
Both Obama and Clinton easily take the following States- California, Connecticut, Illinois (though Obama kills McCain there), Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Ohio (both by 10%), Rhode Island, and Vermont.
McCain definitely wins Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Utah, and Wyoming.
Michigan, Pennsylvania and New Jersey are battle grounds for either candidate. Both candidates are in statistical ties with McCain in those States. Both Democrats trail McCain by 6% in Missouri.
The only advantages that Clinton has is that she takes Arkansas. She wins Florida, whereas McCain would compete there in an Obama campaign. She also makes a race of it in Tennessee and West Virginia. Obama would definitely lose in those states.
But Obama wins Colorado (50-41%)- Clinton loses it to McCain(48-42%).
Obama wins Iowa (50-41%); McCain probably wins that vs. Hillary 46%-41%. Obama would likely win in Nevada, but Hillary loses by 8% there. Obama wins likely wins North Dakota, but Hillary trails there by 19%! Obama wins by 8% in Oregon, Hillary trails McCain there by 5%.
In addition there are several states where Obama easily wins where McCain presses Clinton. Delaware would be a safe win for Obama, but is within statistical error for a Clinton-McCain showdown. In Hawaii, Obama clobbers McCain…it’s within 4% for McCain vs. Hillary. Obama wins Maine easily…it’s a race between Clinton and McCain. Minnesota is safely Obama but within 4 points when Hillary is his opponent. New Mexico has Obama 50% -43%. Hillary is tied with McCain. In Washington, Obama wins by 14%- Clinton trails McCain by 2% (so it’s a fight).
Nevada leans Obama (46%-41%)…but Hillary loses it by 8%. The same is true of New Hampshire (Obama 46%-McCain 44%) – Hillary would lose it by 8%. Obama leads McCain in North Dakota 46%-42%…HRC would lose there by 19%.
Then there are the states where Obama makes a battleground state, but Clinton is non-competitive. States like Alaska (43%-48%…Hillary trails by 22% there), Nebraska (45%-42%…where HRC trails McCain by 17%); or North and South Carolina. Obama is within the statistical 2-3%…while Clinton is about 7% behind. In Texas Obama is in a statistical dead-heat with McCain…Clinton tails behind by 7%. Obama is tied with McCain in Virginia…Hillary would lose there by 10%.
Or even Indiana (50%-41% Obama vs. a 17% differential for Clinton). I’d rather be a Indiana Democratic Congressman with Obama at the head of the ticket than the former first lady being blown out.
Obama is definitely the stronger candidate…and that’s even without considering which candidate would turn out fervid opposition, or enthusiastic supporters.
Good points Ted,Hillary is still a Monster.
Cinnamonape, here is the problem with your otherwise excellent analysis. If democrats aren’t united the poll you site means nothing. Hillary Clinton needs Obama voters to win the swing states you list. Obama needs Clinton supporters to win those same states in the general. Already we know that 75 percent of the supporters of either candidate would vote for the other candidate in the general. This is actually an historically small percentage. Now things could change and that number could go up, but do you really think it will? The campaign is about to become more rancorous not less rancorous. Clinton and Obama will spend the next several weeks criticizing each other more vociferously than ever. Do you think that will unite the party? There’s no resolution in site for Florida and Michigan and all the alterntives to resolve that situaion will leave either Obama or Clinton supporters enraged.
White working class women and Latinos have showed almost no enthusiasm for Obama (with the exception of the Wisconsin primary). Young voters and new voters have demonstrated almost zero enthusiasm for Clinton (except perhaps in California). There is a civil war between Clinton and Obama supporters on blogs like this. Clinton and Obama surrogates are making disgusting comments about each other. The party is about to experience the most angry, vituperative time in recent memory. The closest thing to it was the dispute between the segregationist wing of the party and the civil right wing in the 1950’s. One result of that dispute was the Eisenhower administration.
Just look at yourself, you’re obviously an Obama supporter. If Clinton wins the nomination in a manner you feel is unfair, will you vote for her? If the answer is yes, do you really think that all the other people who feel like you do will vote for her. Here’s a little news for you, the Clinton supporters feel the same way about their candidate as you feel about yours.
In light of the conflagration that’s surely coming in the democratic party, perhaps you can take comfort in the SUSA poll. I can’t. And I think there’s plenty of evidence to support my point of view.
Clinton supporters love Clinton. Obama supporters love Obama. But the gig is up. With every day that passes, each beccmes a less viable general election candidate. Those of us who hate torture, suport a woman’s right to choose, believe in universal access to health care, believe in an ethical foreign policy and support economic justice ignore that reality at our peril.
Thank you very much for your thoughtful response to my original post. I really enjoyed reading it.
Hi Teddy, I sure appreciate your positive message. The campaign stuff has been getting to me and it’s been rather heated at times on the threads.
Your thoughtful post still implies a moral equivalence in the potential outrage of Obama and Clinton voters. As an Obama supporter, I WILL be outraged if Clinton succeeds in securing the nomination with significantly fewer pledged delegates earned during the primary and caucus process. That would violate a basic principle of equity that has long been a core value of the Democratic Party.
Why do say that Clinton voters “feel the same way?” Will they feel cheated if their candidate is denied the nomination because her opponent secured more pledged delegates during a democratic process? What exactly is their grievance? That Clinton was denied votes in Michigan and Florida when those contests were declared invalid long prior to the elections? Or are Clinton voters permitted to feel outrage simply because their candidate was not deemed “inevitable” by the voting public? How has Clinton been wronged to justify such outrage by her supporters?
If Hillary Clinton hates torture, supports a woman’s right to choose, believes in universal health care, believes in an ethical foreign policy and supports economic justice, then she will not continue to seek the nomination when her only slim hope of securing it depends upon a scorched earth campaign to totally destroy her Democratic Party colleague. By doing so, she is likely to ensure the election of John McCain in what should be a banner Democratic year.
But if she were to get the nomination through such tactics, there is no way that I could support her. At this point, Hillary Clinton is the moral equivalent of George W. Bush. She is devoid of principle, placing her own personal ambition above the good of her party and her country. A person like that will never earn my vote and offers no assurances whatsoever that she would be a better president than McCain.
“But if she were to get the nomination through such tactics, there is no way that I could support her. At this point, Hillary Clinton is the moral equivalent of George W. Bush. She is devoid of principle, placing her own personal ambition above the good of her party and her country. A person like that will never earn my vote and offers no assurances whatsoever that she would be a better president than McCain.”
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. And, given the way she’s conducted herself in her campaign, I don’t believe she would be a better president than McCain or be a transformational leader for the country in the aftermath of 911 and the GW Bush presidency.
i’m sorry, Peony, but i must disagree with you.
there is NO WAY that Hillary wouldn’t be a better president than McCain. she may well not be the president that you, or i, want but a Hillary Clinton presidency would be at least some better than a John McCain presidency. is that damning with faint praise? undoubtedly. she has some really despicable people in her campaign, and they won’t be going away.
i prefer Barak Obama, in fact i supported and wanted John Edwards to become president but, i will support Hillary Clinton, and all of the baggage she brings with her, over John McCain.
Unfortunately, Peony is right. The reasons are bigger, however, than Hilary’s self-serving tactics and moral bankruptcy. The biggest thing at stake in this election is not Iraq, the economy, NAFTA, torture or change. It is democracy in America.
You can’t have democracy in a two-party system in which the leadership of both parties dedicates itself to the no-holds-barred manipulation and perversion of the electoral process, whether vote suppression or legal challenges to every electoral process that results in a loss for your candidate. Hilary Clinton’s tactics in this election are undemocratic in the extreme. If she loses a caucus, she challenges the legitimacy of caucuses. If the party asks candidates not to contest Florida and Michigan, she throws a “victory” party after “winning” Florida, and claims the delegates from Michigan even though her name was the only one on the ballot. “Victories” like that used to happen only behind the Iron Curtain. If a state decides to make caucuses more convenient for some Democratic voters, she backs lawsuits when she suspects the result may be a greater proportion of votes for an opponent. If she loses the battle for delegates elected by ordinary voters in primaries, she argues that it is the duty of superdelegates to overturn the judgment of those voters. To Hilary, democracy has only one meaning–Hilary must win; no other result is an acceptable outcome of the electoral process.
Hilary’s campaign staff has shown itself to be every bit as deceptive, ruthless and sleazy as Karl Rove and company. Having two parties that operate the way Rove and Hilary operate will destroy the few vestiges of democracy that have survived 8 years of assault by Bush and Rove. It would be better for this country to have McCain, Ron Paul, or anybody else than to have Hilary in the White House and the Democratic Party in her hands.
I was not opposed to Hilary just two months ago. In fact, I was undecided between Hilary and Obama. I could have happily supported either. It is Hilary’s campaign that has rendered her utterly unacceptable to me under any circumstances against any candidate. Can anybody here really imagine enduring eight years of Howard Wolfson, Harold Ickes, and the legions of disciplined liars and character assassins that Hilary dispatches daily to destroy Obama, simply because he happens to be the last obstacle between her and preeminent power? Can anybody really see a difference between that gang of political operatives and Rove, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, etc.? Everything about Hilary’s campaign indicates she and her minions can be counted on to abuse all the power she can grab.
This isn’t about race, gender or age. I’m a 60+ white guy, a lifelong Democrat. I could support Obama, Claire McCaskill, Chris Dodd, Russ Feingold, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Richardson or any of a dozen other Democrats. If Hilary gains control of the Democratic Party, however, I cannot in good conscience remain a Democrat. It will be time to give up on the two dominant parties once and for all and back a third party for the sake of democracy. Four years of McCain, four years more of rule by the one party long dedicated to sleaze, would be preferable to four years of rule by a second party transformed into its twin. The stated policy differences won’t matter at all if democracy ceases to exist. That is what Hilary promises. Her policies will be whatever aggrandizes her power and destroys her enemies. She is not a Democrat or a democrat. She is a Hilaryite. She may succeed in wangling a “victory” from a distorted electoral process, but my vote won’t make it easier for her.
I thought this, at last, was the year for the Democratic Party to sweep to victory and restore the normal workings of our democratic form of government, a chance to clean out the vote suppression gang in the Justice Department and the White House and recognize the right of voters to make free choices again. Either Hilary or Obama should have won big, with high independent support, sweeping many Democrats into Congress and the Senate–at last, there would be a working majority on behalf of great majority of Americans rather than the privileged 2 percent and duped social conservatives. Because of the way Hilary has campaigned, that hope is gone. Forget the polls showing disdain for the disastrous Republican Party. Look at the polls showing McCain gaining strength against both Obama and Hilary. That is Hilary’s doing. The best we can hope for now is for Obama to get the nomination and win a narrow victory with perhaps a few more Democratic seats to work with in a divided, partisan, ineffective Congress. The year of transformation, thanks to Hilary, has been transformed into just another dirty election with politics as usual followed by just another administration with paralysis in Washington interrupted by occasional triumphs for special interests. Forget about confirming a new generation of Democratic justices on the Supreme Court. Such causes didn’t matter to Hilary. All that mattered was getting her hands on the nomination, no matter what opponents, truths, causes and hopes had to be crushed to that end.
Who would have thought that the first woman with a real chance to win the White House would turn out to be the last person on earth who should be allowed to do so? This state of affairs is all her doing, and it is beyond sad.
It simply doesn’t matter who has more of a right to their moral outrage. You say Obama supporters do, Clinton supporters will say that they do. It’s the moral outrage that matters not who is more entitled to it.
Tens of thousands of Obama supporters feel as you do. Tens of thousand of Clinton supporters feel the same way in reverse. Just as you won’t vote for Clinton, they won’t vote for Obama.
In the general election Clinton will probably lose to McCain because she won’t hold Obama supporters. Obama will probably lose to McCain because he won’t hold Clinton supporters.
Despite whatever virtues either candidate does or does not have, both candidacies now virge on being fatally flawed. If you feel that you would rather be right than have a democrat win, you’re entitled to your view. My guess is that you will probably get your wish.
Ok, we get it. You think Hillary Clinton is terrible. Maybe your right. Millions of Clinton supporters think Obama is an empty suit with no experience. The rant about how Obama and his supporters stood idly by while the press lobbed sexist innuendo after sexist inneuenedo against Clinton. Maybe their right. This is one of those times that being right doesn’t matter. In the end, both Obama supporters who won’t support Clinton and Clinston supporters who won’t support Obama will get their way and their second choice for President. That would be President McCain.
I agree there is a good chance it will be President McCain. I also think that, in the long term, would be better than President Hilary Clinton. My argument on that point was serious. It’s not a petty matter. It’s not about merely finding her obnoxious, or having my feelings hurt because of her attacks on a candidate I now prefer. I didn’t prefer him until she showed fundamentally vicious, dishonest character bent on achieving maximum personal power. Hilary is responsible for my preferring Obama–or anybody else–because she shows no respect whatever for democracy itself. No respect for the rules set in advance by the Democratic Party, no respect for the wishes of the voters, no respect for anything that might prevent her gaining power. I am appalled to find that is her true nature. I have defended her for years against unfair attacks by the rightwing hate machine. I thought she would help get us beyond that just as well as Obama would; I did not expect her to launch her own terrifyingly efficient, effective hate machine. She has done that par excellence. Putting her in a more powerful office would be a grave mistake. McCain is less dangerous than she is.
Your claim that it doesn’t make any difference who has the right to moral outrage doesn’t make me any less curious. As far as I can tell, the only grievance Clinton supporters have is that American voters are denying Clinton the office to which she is entitled.