And now a word from Chairman Dean:
"We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates. We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.
"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.
"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."
Howard's pretty much "begging" (according to Chuck Todd) Michigan and Florida to have do-overs. Bill Clinton appeared on the Rush Limbaugh show (guest host Mark Davis) saying they should be seated as-is because the states aren't going to want to bear the expense. Republican Florida Governor Charlie Crist initially told Blitzer he'd be into paying for a do-over but is now backing off, so it's up in the air who would foot the bill if such a thing were to happen.
Todd Beeton points to this helpful suggestion from David Brooks:
She’ll have to make the case that everybody’s vote should count. She should offer to split the $15 to $20 million cost of a Florida re-vote with Obama. If he says no, she can ask why he is against democracy. Why does he like the small turnout caucuses over the big turnout primaries?
I'm sure there's probably a reason why this is a bad idea but off the top of my head I can't think of it.
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Jane!
two?
How about a little BobbyG background music for your FDL view pleasure?
(My latest podcast)
Jane, i keep getting a Neilson survey pop-up - did you commission a survey of your readers? if so, i will filll it out.
What is Bill Clinton doing on the Rush Limbaugh show, for pete’s sake?
I’m sure it will come to you.
I got it yesterday on a thread. Took about a minute and a half to fill it out.
hi Jane…Hope this meets you well…*g*
Hey neurophius you beat me to the digg by 1 second… dammm
No one could have expected this.
Jesus H. Fuck.
I just don’t think any of the FL and MI stuff is going to matter.
From below: I have noticed some uncertainty about where we’re at now after yesterday. Team Obama has a note out explaining where things have settled, and let’s just say any Obama backers have nothing to worry about, although it would be nice to end this sooner than later!
http://my.barackobama.com/page…..sen/gGBLmx
Obama got another superdelegate today from Georgia, so that makes two today and three yesterday, so in the last 24 hours, Obama has added one delegate to his overall lead, according to Obama’s “math.” This is over.
Right on, Howard! New primaries should be held, if not, stick to your guns…!
Wow, that is disturbing to hear that Bill Clinton is doing guest spots on the Limbaugh show.
Very disturbing.
-G
There’s a large button on Lush’s frontpage with Hillary’s logo and text saying to vote for her and extend the Dem primaries as long as possible. Didn’t Hillary do an interview today with Karl Rove on Pox as well?
Makes one wonder…
It doesn’t cost that much, does it?
I read that twice thinking there had to be a mistake. WTF?
Clinton and Obama could agree to hold a series of fundraisers in Florida (augmented by online fundraising) to finance the Florida and Michigan primaries or caucuses in accordance with DNC rules and FEC regulations.
What would be wrong with that?
Yes we did. We appreciate everyone’s patience and participation, it’s very helpful to us.
LOL I missed the first comment so settled for the first Digg…
I say let the states pay for their own redo. It’s my understanding that they initially agreed to their place in the primary line and later jumped up to the head of the line. (I could be wrong on this, I get most of my news from the “far left blogs” thank you ladies.)
I’m no expert thought Dean’s response was measured and appropriate - which is more than I can say I thought of the Governors’ comments.
I don’t see why either candidate should bear any of the cost of re-running the primaries. I think Florida and Michigan should do so. They broke the rules, they don’t like the consequence, so here’s a different consequence: but either way there should be consequences.
mail in ballot do-over… cheap and quick… do it soon! stop the argument!
Not entirely unlike Hillary Clinton’s praise of John McCain’s foreign policy experience…
Is it over? Any way to participate?
Jane, I’ve freaking been working with paypal for an hour, and they are saying the problem is with your site? Anybody else? Have you been able to pay through paypal?
Thanks. I hate technology when it doesn’t work!!!
So how do the numbers stand now?
READY FROM DAY ONE.
Pay it forward.
We were quick… ha ha ha ha
Campaign contributions paying for the arrogance of state party officials taking cuts in a line they agreed to? I would be opposed to any of my contributions being spent in this fashion–it effectively punishes donors.
I have to agree.
I live in michigan and i pretty much intend to wait for the general. So far things are going as i hoped they would. Yeah, we’ve got a long slog ahead of us for electing our Democtratic nominee, but it’s interesting to watch! I didn’t get a chance to really say what i wanted, no thanks to our idiotic MDP.
I just keep that in mind. The general, i have a feeling we’ll make up for what turnout we didn’t get in that because of the botched primary. Distinct possibility in a state as irritated as this one with the Shrub(and our own GOP crooks!)
Why should the states that broke the rules get a do-over? They did break the rules didn’t they?
Who wants a do over? Clinton or Obama?
The irony in all this is that, had they waited, they would have even more clout. Think of what being it the catbird’s seat means for PA! To quote the great Fats Waller, ‘One never knows, do one?”
Anderson Cooper just broke in on Larry King to say MI and FL leaders met late on the Hill… details of the meeting to follow. (Ron Reagan is on King, with Katheryn V. D. H.)
They don’t send Nielson ratings to Oilfield trash. Waving to Jane and the ultra-kewl BobbyG
Jane,
We gotta stop Bobo from reading Emptywheel’s blog. I posted this this Monday and wouldn’t you know, Bobo goes and steals it:
Returning props to my friend OilFieldGuy!!!!
I wonder how many folks realize that if the Michigan and Florida ‘delegates’ were counted that Clinton would be slightly ahead of Obama in delegates.
keepin’ the enemy close…..smart move
BobbyG and OFG- Hey to you both. Hugs, etc.
There is, I’m sure, a long and sordid and complicated history re: Florida and Ohio voting. I’ll leave it at that. ;)
edit- oops. Why was I thinking of Ohio instead of Michigan?
A really good question. No good answer.
Because if Hillary can’t win, ain’t nobody gonna win…. does this just reinforce some of the negative perceptions of her or what?
Can I have a new set of choices please?
Fla and MI knew what the rules were before they decided to break them anyway. They should suffer the concequence of their actions.
Valley Girl In The House!!!
(((((*!*)))))
OT, but has Media Matters’ h/t to FDL been mentioned?
re 15,000 letters sent to newspapers to protest the questioning of Obama’s patriotism:
Boehlert’s opinion:
Well, well.
Very cool, thanks!
Thank you very much. You are like the first person who has said that…
Obama’s site has pledged delegates at 1386 for O, and 1230 for C, a 156 delegate difference. This includes TX causcuses.
They count supers there, but the most up-date-sites I’ve seen have him around 40 supers behind, and that’s with the 5 he gained in the last 24 hours.
In my opinion a do-over would be desirable because (1) the original contests were not fair to all candidates, since according to the rules they were not supposed to count, therefore we should not accept their result; and (2) to freeze Florida and Michigan delegates out of the process altogether (even though justified by the rules) could hurt the Democratic nominee’s chances to carry those states in November.
An imperfect solution to a thorny problem.
Aren’t Republicans in control of FL? I don’t see them voting for a state-sponsored election. A party-sponsored caucus could get around that. And there’s no reason a caucus couldn’t function like a primary (voting all day, show up and sign a paper ballot).
Having FL seated as is doesn’t bother me that much, but MI is a whole other animal, since Obama was not on the ballot.
I don’t think there will be revotes. I see it going to the credentials committee (which will have members created by Dean, Obama and Clinton). My bet is that they do a roughly 50/50 split, giving Obama the victory in pledged delegates.
Dean didn’t sound like he wanted do-overs today on NPR. He held to the rules are the rules and everyone knew them. If he abets Clinton stealing the nomination, there will be blood on his hands.
You bet. I have so much fun.
What about the 2 million plus Democratic primary voters in Michigan an Flrida? Why should they be punished?
I live in FL. I didn’t choose to vote early. I voted for Edwards. He wouldn’t be on the new ballot…
ugh…”they DON’T count supers there…”
She’ll have to make the case that everybody’s vote should count. She should offer to split the
I’m sure there’s probably a reason why this is a bad idea but off the top of my head I can’t think of it.
Their was an agreement by both states with the DNC. It’s a bad idea because it breaks the agreement after the game has started.
In Michigan, breaking the rules to begin with was a Dingell dominated affair–Debbie and John.
Debbie knows what agreements are. She learned during her years as a lobbyists for GM, and for a Senator.
Clinton has asserted that the voters in those states didn’t enter into any agreements. The people who stayed home because they were told according to the agreement with the DNC there votes would not be counting didn’t enter into any agreement either.
Bill Clinton was a appeared on the Rush Limbaugh show (guest host Mark Davis) saying they should be seated as-is because the states aren’t going to want to bear the expense.
I’d give this idea from Big Dog a major chutzpah award of a 10 on a 10 scale. There is as much chance of that happening, someone should tell Bill as there is of a Clinton-limbaugh ticket with Clinton the #2 on the ticket.
They must win. No option. No more Bushco. No more Neocons.
Hi Bobby G!
Mon cherie….
Seems like we have:
(1) multiple loci of decison making (Dem Party / Candidates / State Legislatures / Governors.
(2) mutally exclusive (and hostile ) interests (Dem vs Rethug)
Who cares? Well, if the goal is for the Dem Party to decide how best to select 2008 candidates, then Republicans have no place in the process.
Which is cool - except that Rethug governors/legislaturess can block State funding. So insisting on state fudning gives one more lever of power to the Rethugs (or two or three, depending on if R’s control Governor/Senate/Legislature).
I’m all for spanking stupid pols - cause that’s one arm of reinforcing the decisions I want. But if a re-do is in Dem interests, having Dem candidates fund it protects Dems from Rethugs’ dirty tricks.
Besides, supporting democracy lets the Senators set a good example for their supporters….
I made a Send the FDL’ers to Denver donation about 40 minutes ago. Worked fine then.
Why would any state ever follow the supposed rules again when there is virtually no consequence?
Stay The Corpse.
I thought I read somewhere that this whole Florida mess was due to something the Repub legislature did. Someone tell me if you know, please.
The FL situation was caused by the Repub-controlled state legislature. Do you think we should let the FL Repubs determine how we elect our Dem nominee for Prez?
Battered Party Syndrome strikes again…
Bobby G- hey there! Are you as worn out by the never-ending primary as I am?
I sent that to all my friends.
Good evening pups
Surely my eyes fail me and i did not read that Willy was on Limpy’s show? I thought the strategy was to ignore these folks, not go play in their backyard.
Drive-by clarification re FL primary: Bill to move the primary was a R bill, signed by an R governor. The one good thing it did was give us a paper trail.
Counting the delegates of FL and MI is a non-starter, the issue is a possible mulligan and if so, who pays. I am not opposed to a do-over, but a huge amount of individual donors are actually kicking in to our Democratic candidates, many are first-time donors. Imagine these first-time donors fundage going to finance a do-over election in a state that refuses to get its shit together like Florida. Do you think another dime will ever come from these folks again? Dismay, disillusionment, and outright anger could possibly diminish Democratic gains into new voters. That’s why I think this is a bad idea.
Hi VG
Someone (forget who) from FL said the Rethugs control their legislature and made the change. He felt he was being denied his voice in the election, as Dems had no say. I have to agree.
Yes. Enervating.
Hope you are well.
The primary move was the caveat to getting the paper trail, right? No primary move, no paper ticket
Ron,
Weren’t there a couple of D legislators involved initially in the writing of the bill to move things up? At least I recall reading that at some point then when the sh*t hit the fan, they tried to duck the splatter pattern.
Clinton wants the do-over. She can’t possibly win via delegates right now in the 12 states left mathematically. To do so she has to win 65% margin in every state. She failed to do that last night, and she can’t possibly do it from here on out. Even if she got Big Dog’s wish while he looked good partnering with Rush Limbaugh in radio (new career?) she’s not going to win in pledged delegates.
I know many people watch TV and when TV does predictions, they lull you into thinking someone won a state–they even put it up in block letters. But winning “a state” is a farce. Delegates aren’t assigned from any state. They come from counties, or districts (however the states name them).
That’s why I don’t understand why people like Tweety keep perpetuating the error and saying someone “won” 3/4 states. It’s about cumulative delegates. And as far as I know, a person from New York doesn’t count any more than a person from Peurto Rico.
Yes, I remember reading that also, but can’t bring the details to mind at the moment. Had to do with the date set by the FL legislature, irrc. Which caused a mess for the Dems.
How does a republic decide when the Dem primary will be?
Do it. Each One Reach Two+.
I thought it was the Republican dominated State Legislature that forced the change and not the Dem party officials..is this what happened?
I can’t answer that because my comment 50 (referenced in your comment 63) mysteriously disappeared…what’s up with that?
Bonkers, I don’t think we should let the Republican controlled Leislature select our candidate. That is not what I am advocating.
But, you apparently think we should allow a Republican controlled Legislature to strip Floria Democratic voters from having a voice in selecting our nominee.
I am actually for having a new primary vote.
OFG….
Correction, Repu’ublicists.
Not sure if that’s true with the counts I’ve seen. I do know if FL and MI are added as is, Obama still has a substantial lead in total votes cast.
Anyway, this makes no sense since Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in MI, and whenever Obama and Clinton go head-to-head in state, Obama gains considerable ground, including OH where he made up 12% in less than two weeks. The FL “results” were like anywhere else…Hillary starts with big leads based on name-recognition, but when voters see them side by side, voters flock to Obama.
Thanks, this is frustrating. I want to send them to the conventions. Guess I’ll have to use the ‘ol snail mail. I just hate moving backwards!
FL and MI like a bad penny? Nah, more like stinky socks you just can’t bring yourself to toss, and don’t want to handle to wash…
Having a former President on the right wing loudmouth idiot’s show lends credence and prestige to the right wing loudmouth idiot that he most certainly does not deserve.
Bad move, Bill.
They control the timing of the primary by virtue (?) of controlling the legislature.
There were no dirty tricks from rethugs in Michigan–Kirk. The dirty tricks came from prominent democrats–chiefly Debbie Dingell and her husband Representative John Dingell. They both have been in politics for a cumulative 60 years plus. They know what rules are and they broke ‘em. They were told explicitly not to break ‘em. They did anyway.
Yeah, I don’t get that shit.
Thanks for the link it shows that we @ FDL can make a difference and we need to keep up the good work!! Kudos to our FDL staff of greats :>)
Hard refresh and it’s there.
I don’t understand. How can the state legislature determine democratic rules on elections?
that’s why I proposed a fundraising drive by both candidates, under the guidance of the DNC, to raise money specifically to fund the do-overs, from people who are willing to have their money spent in the Democratic Party’s best interests.
I see your comment @ 50. If the republics were to blame for moving the primary up then I would change my opinion.
Does anyone know why of all shows, he went on Wimpy’s? Wimpy took every opportunity to take shots at Willy. I’m all befuddled.
No publicity is bad publicity and they spelled his name correctly?
A couple of points if I may:
1. If MI and FL delegates are put back into the mix, that will also change the number needed to gain the nomination. The current 2025 needed of 4049 does NOT include FL and MI.
2. Please don’t forget that the Rs are also punishing FL and MI (as well as NH and SC) by taking half of each state’s delegates for not following the rules.
Of course, by forgetting the second point, it allows everyone to continue to harp on the Dems being in disarray.
Thanks RGB, I should have guessed that.
I think the FL Dems need to straighten this out within their state first. Yes, it’s unfortunate, but I don’t think we should allow FL Repubs to have such an impact on our national campaign.
How can the state legislature determine democratic rules on elections?
I believe primaries are run by the state, and paid by the state. Caucuses are run by the party and paid by the party.
The Rethugs control everything, what do you suggest FL Dems do? (Seriously.)
Is anyone here advocating that the Michigan delegates should be seated as is?
Howard Dean, as usual, is handling this beautifully.
Because even though it is a primary to determine delegates to the Dem convention, it uses state resources for the voting.
IIRC, one option that was considered by the state Dem parties (and maybe the DNC as well) and rejected was to let the votes stand as a non-binding beauty contest and have a caucus during the allowable time period to actually select the delegates. Caucuses can be done without the state resources being involved.
correcto
Campaign contributions are like pouring water on the sidewalk. It goes everywhere, and people are cynical. Now, if we could borrow Al Gore’s iron clad lock-box…
Texas Democratic Party Vice Chair Roy Laverne Brooks, Democratic National Committee member Mary Long of Georgia and South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Carol Fowler today endorsed Obama.
First Bill consorts with Poppy and now with ole rush…
gag.
Organize.
well, if anyone wants to wade through it, there’s a lot of info about the FL primary here:
http://www.makeitcountflorida......ount-faqs/
Gotcha. Thanks.
Now you’re sounding like the National Office in