And now a word from Chairman Dean:
"We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates. We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.
"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.
"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."
Howard's pretty much "begging" (according to Chuck Todd) Michigan and Florida to have do-overs. Bill Clinton appeared on the Rush Limbaugh show (guest host Mark Davis) saying they should be seated as-is because the states aren't going to want to bear the expense. Republican Florida Governor Charlie Crist initially told Blitzer he'd be into paying for a do-over but is now backing off, so it's up in the air who would foot the bill if such a thing were to happen.
Todd Beeton points to this helpful suggestion from David Brooks:
She’ll have to make the case that everybody’s vote should count. She should offer to split the $15 to $20 million cost of a Florida re-vote with Obama. If he says no, she can ask why he is against democracy. Why does he like the small turnout caucuses over the big turnout primaries?
I'm sure there's probably a reason why this is a bad idea but off the top of my head I can't think of it.
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1
Jane!
two?
How about a little BobbyG background music for your FDL view pleasure?
(My latest podcast)
Jane, i keep getting a Neilson survey pop-up - did you commission a survey of your readers? if so, i will filll it out.
What is Bill Clinton doing on the Rush Limbaugh show, for pete’s sake?
I’m sure it will come to you.
I got it yesterday on a thread. Took about a minute and a half to fill it out.
hi Jane…Hope this meets you well…*g*
Hey neurophius you beat me to the digg by 1 second… dammm
No one could have expected this.
Jesus H. Fuck.
I just don’t think any of the FL and MI stuff is going to matter.
From below: I have noticed some uncertainty about where we’re at now after yesterday. Team Obama has a note out explaining where things have settled, and let’s just say any Obama backers have nothing to worry about, although it would be nice to end this sooner than later!
http://my.barackobama.com/page…..sen/gGBLmx
Obama got another superdelegate today from Georgia, so that makes two today and three yesterday, so in the last 24 hours, Obama has added one delegate to his overall lead, according to Obama’s “math.” This is over.
Right on, Howard! New primaries should be held, if not, stick to your guns…!
Wow, that is disturbing to hear that Bill Clinton is doing guest spots on the Limbaugh show.
Very disturbing.
-G
There’s a large button on Lush’s frontpage with Hillary’s logo and text saying to vote for her and extend the Dem primaries as long as possible. Didn’t Hillary do an interview today with Karl Rove on Pox as well?
Makes one wonder…
It doesn’t cost that much, does it?
I read that twice thinking there had to be a mistake. WTF?
Clinton and Obama could agree to hold a series of fundraisers in Florida (augmented by online fundraising) to finance the Florida and Michigan primaries or caucuses in accordance with DNC rules and FEC regulations.
What would be wrong with that?
Yes we did. We appreciate everyone’s patience and participation, it’s very helpful to us.
LOL I missed the first comment so settled for the first Digg…
I say let the states pay for their own redo. It’s my understanding that they initially agreed to their place in the primary line and later jumped up to the head of the line. (I could be wrong on this, I get most of my news from the “far left blogs” thank you ladies.)
I’m no expert thought Dean’s response was measured and appropriate - which is more than I can say I thought of the Governors’ comments.
I don’t see why either candidate should bear any of the cost of re-running the primaries. I think Florida and Michigan should do so. They broke the rules, they don’t like the consequence, so here’s a different consequence: but either way there should be consequences.
mail in ballot do-over… cheap and quick… do it soon! stop the argument!
Not entirely unlike Hillary Clinton’s praise of John McCain’s foreign policy experience…
Is it over? Any way to participate?
Jane, I’ve freaking been working with paypal for an hour, and they are saying the problem is with your site? Anybody else? Have you been able to pay through paypal?
Thanks. I hate technology when it doesn’t work!!!
So how do the numbers stand now?
READY FROM DAY ONE.
Pay it forward.
We were quick… ha ha ha ha
Campaign contributions paying for the arrogance of state party officials taking cuts in a line they agreed to? I would be opposed to any of my contributions being spent in this fashion–it effectively punishes donors.
I have to agree.
I live in michigan and i pretty much intend to wait for the general. So far things are going as i hoped they would. Yeah, we’ve got a long slog ahead of us for electing our Democtratic nominee, but it’s interesting to watch! I didn’t get a chance to really say what i wanted, no thanks to our idiotic MDP.
I just keep that in mind. The general, i have a feeling we’ll make up for what turnout we didn’t get in that because of the botched primary. Distinct possibility in a state as irritated as this one with the Shrub(and our own GOP crooks!)
Why should the states that broke the rules get a do-over? They did break the rules didn’t they?
Who wants a do over? Clinton or Obama?
The irony in all this is that, had they waited, they would have even more clout. Think of what being it the catbird’s seat means for PA! To quote the great Fats Waller, ‘One never knows, do one?”
Anderson Cooper just broke in on Larry King to say MI and FL leaders met late on the Hill… details of the meeting to follow. (Ron Reagan is on King, with Katheryn V. D. H.)
They don’t send Nielson ratings to Oilfield trash. Waving to Jane and the ultra-kewl BobbyG
Jane,
We gotta stop Bobo from reading Emptywheel’s blog. I posted this this Monday and wouldn’t you know, Bobo goes and steals it:
Returning props to my friend OilFieldGuy!!!!
I wonder how many folks realize that if the Michigan and Florida ‘delegates’ were counted that Clinton would be slightly ahead of Obama in delegates.
keepin’ the enemy close…..smart move
BobbyG and OFG- Hey to you both. Hugs, etc.
There is, I’m sure, a long and sordid and complicated history re: Florida and Ohio voting. I’ll leave it at that. ;)
edit- oops. Why was I thinking of Ohio instead of Michigan?
A really good question. No good answer.
Because if Hillary can’t win, ain’t nobody gonna win…. does this just reinforce some of the negative perceptions of her or what?
Can I have a new set of choices please?
Fla and MI knew what the rules were before they decided to break them anyway. They should suffer the concequence of their actions.
Valley Girl In The House!!!
(((((*!*)))))
OT, but has Media Matters’ h/t to FDL been mentioned?
re 15,000 letters sent to newspapers to protest the questioning of Obama’s patriotism:
Boehlert’s opinion:
Well, well.
Very cool, thanks!
Thank you very much. You are like the first person who has said that…
Obama’s site has pledged delegates at 1386 for O, and 1230 for C, a 156 delegate difference. This includes TX causcuses.
They count supers there, but the most up-date-sites I’ve seen have him around 40 supers behind, and that’s with the 5 he gained in the last 24 hours.
In my opinion a do-over would be desirable because (1) the original contests were not fair to all candidates, since according to the rules they were not supposed to count, therefore we should not accept their result; and (2) to freeze Florida and Michigan delegates out of the process altogether (even though justified by the rules) could hurt the Democratic nominee’s chances to carry those states in November.
An imperfect solution to a thorny problem.
Aren’t Republicans in control of FL? I don’t see them voting for a state-sponsored election. A party-sponsored caucus could get around that. And there’s no reason a caucus couldn’t function like a primary (voting all day, show up and sign a paper ballot).
Having FL seated as is doesn’t bother me that much, but MI is a whole other animal, since Obama was not on the ballot.
I don’t think there will be revotes. I see it going to the credentials committee (which will have members created by Dean, Obama and Clinton). My bet is that they do a roughly 50/50 split, giving Obama the victory in pledged delegates.
Dean didn’t sound like he wanted do-overs today on NPR. He held to the rules are the rules and everyone knew them. If he abets Clinton stealing the nomination, there will be blood on his hands.
You bet. I have so much fun.
What about the 2 million plus Democratic primary voters in Michigan an Flrida? Why should they be punished?
I live in FL. I didn’t choose to vote early. I voted for Edwards. He wouldn’t be on the new ballot…
ugh…”they DON’T count supers there…”
She’ll have to make the case that everybody’s vote should count. She should offer to split the
I’m sure there’s probably a reason why this is a bad idea but off the top of my head I can’t think of it.
Their was an agreement by both states with the DNC. It’s a bad idea because it breaks the agreement after the game has started.
In Michigan, breaking the rules to begin with was a Dingell dominated affair–Debbie and John.
Debbie knows what agreements are. She learned during her years as a lobbyists for GM, and for a Senator.
Clinton has asserted that the voters in those states didn’t enter into any agreements. The people who stayed home because they were told according to the agreement with the DNC there votes would not be counting didn’t enter into any agreement either.
Bill Clinton was a appeared on the Rush Limbaugh show (guest host Mark Davis) saying they should be seated as-is because the states aren’t going to want to bear the expense.
I’d give this idea from Big Dog a major chutzpah award of a 10 on a 10 scale. There is as much chance of that happening, someone should tell Bill as there is of a Clinton-limbaugh ticket with Clinton the #2 on the ticket.
They must win. No option. No more Bushco. No more Neocons.
Hi Bobby G!
Mon cherie….
Seems like we have:
(1) multiple loci of decison making (Dem Party / Candidates / State Legislatures / Governors.
(2) mutally exclusive (and hostile ) interests (Dem vs Rethug)
Who cares? Well, if the goal is for the Dem Party to decide how best to select 2008 candidates, then Republicans have no place in the process.
Which is cool - except that Rethug governors/legislaturess can block State funding. So insisting on state fudning gives one more lever of power to the Rethugs (or two or three, depending on if R’s control Governor/Senate/Legislature).
I’m all for spanking stupid pols - cause that’s one arm of reinforcing the decisions I want. But if a re-do is in Dem interests, having Dem candidates fund it protects Dems from Rethugs’ dirty tricks.
Besides, supporting democracy lets the Senators set a good example for their supporters….
I made a Send the FDL’ers to Denver donation about 40 minutes ago. Worked fine then.
Why would any state ever follow the supposed rules again when there is virtually no consequence?
Stay The Corpse.
I thought I read somewhere that this whole Florida mess was due to something the Repub legislature did. Someone tell me if you know, please.
The FL situation was caused by the Repub-controlled state legislature. Do you think we should let the FL Repubs determine how we elect our Dem nominee for Prez?
Battered Party Syndrome strikes again…
Bobby G- hey there! Are you as worn out by the never-ending primary as I am?
I sent that to all my friends.
Good evening pups
Surely my eyes fail me and i did not read that Willy was on Limpy’s show? I thought the strategy was to ignore these folks, not go play in their backyard.
Drive-by clarification re FL primary: Bill to move the primary was a R bill, signed by an R governor. The one good thing it did was give us a paper trail.
Counting the delegates of FL and MI is a non-starter, the issue is a possible mulligan and if so, who pays. I am not opposed to a do-over, but a huge amount of individual donors are actually kicking in to our Democratic candidates, many are first-time donors. Imagine these first-time donors fundage going to finance a do-over election in a state that refuses to get its shit together like Florida. Do you think another dime will ever come from these folks again? Dismay, disillusionment, and outright anger could possibly diminish Democratic gains into new voters. That’s why I think this is a bad idea.
Hi VG
Someone (forget who) from FL said the Rethugs control their legislature and made the change. He felt he was being denied his voice in the election, as Dems had no say. I have to agree.
Yes. Enervating.
Hope you are well.
The primary move was the caveat to getting the paper trail, right? No primary move, no paper ticket
Ron,
Weren’t there a couple of D legislators involved initially in the writing of the bill to move things up? At least I recall reading that at some point then when the sh*t hit the fan, they tried to duck the splatter pattern.
Clinton wants the do-over. She can’t possibly win via delegates right now in the 12 states left mathematically. To do so she has to win 65% margin in every state. She failed to do that last night, and she can’t possibly do it from here on out. Even if she got Big Dog’s wish while he looked good partnering with Rush Limbaugh in radio (new career?) she’s not going to win in pledged delegates.
I know many people watch TV and when TV does predictions, they lull you into thinking someone won a state–they even put it up in block letters. But winning “a state” is a farce. Delegates aren’t assigned from any state. They come from counties, or districts (however the states name them).
That’s why I don’t understand why people like Tweety keep perpetuating the error and saying someone “won” 3/4 states. It’s about cumulative delegates. And as far as I know, a person from New York doesn’t count any more than a person from Peurto Rico.
Yes, I remember reading that also, but can’t bring the details to mind at the moment. Had to do with the date set by the FL legislature, irrc. Which caused a mess for the Dems.
How does a republic decide when the Dem primary will be?
Do it. Each One Reach Two+.
I thought it was the Republican dominated State Legislature that forced the change and not the Dem party officials..is this what happened?
I can’t answer that because my comment 50 (referenced in your comment 63) mysteriously disappeared…what’s up with that?
Bonkers, I don’t think we should let the Republican controlled Leislature select our candidate. That is not what I am advocating.
But, you apparently think we should allow a Republican controlled Legislature to strip Floria Democratic voters from having a voice in selecting our nominee.
I am actually for having a new primary vote.
OFG….
Correction, Repu’ublicists.
Not sure if that’s true with the counts I’ve seen. I do know if FL and MI are added as is, Obama still has a substantial lead in total votes cast.
Anyway, this makes no sense since Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in MI, and whenever Obama and Clinton go head-to-head in state, Obama gains considerable ground, including OH where he made up 12% in less than two weeks. The FL “results” were like anywhere else…Hillary starts with big leads based on name-recognition, but when voters see them side by side, voters flock to Obama.
Thanks, this is frustrating. I want to send them to the conventions. Guess I’ll have to use the ‘ol snail mail. I just hate moving backwards!
FL and MI like a bad penny? Nah, more like stinky socks you just can’t bring yourself to toss, and don’t want to handle to wash…
Having a former President on the right wing loudmouth idiot’s show lends credence and prestige to the right wing loudmouth idiot that he most certainly does not deserve.
Bad move, Bill.
They control the timing of the primary by virtue (?) of controlling the legislature.
There were no dirty tricks from rethugs in Michigan–Kirk. The dirty tricks came from prominent democrats–chiefly Debbie Dingell and her husband Representative John Dingell. They both have been in politics for a cumulative 60 years plus. They know what rules are and they broke ‘em. They were told explicitly not to break ‘em. They did anyway.
Yeah, I don’t get that shit.
Thanks for the link it shows that we @ FDL can make a difference and we need to keep up the good work!! Kudos to our FDL staff of greats :>)
Hard refresh and it’s there.
I don’t understand. How can the state legislature determine democratic rules on elections?
that’s why I proposed a fundraising drive by both candidates, under the guidance of the DNC, to raise money specifically to fund the do-overs, from people who are willing to have their money spent in the Democratic Party’s best interests.
I see your comment @ 50. If the republics were to blame for moving the primary up then I would change my opinion.
Does anyone know why of all shows, he went on Wimpy’s? Wimpy took every opportunity to take shots at Willy. I’m all befuddled.
No publicity is bad publicity and they spelled his name correctly?
A couple of points if I may:
1. If MI and FL delegates are put back into the mix, that will also change the number needed to gain the nomination. The current 2025 needed of 4049 does NOT include FL and MI.
2. Please don’t forget that the Rs are also punishing FL and MI (as well as NH and SC) by taking half of each state’s delegates for not following the rules.
Of course, by forgetting the second point, it allows everyone to continue to harp on the Dems being in disarray.
Thanks RGB, I should have guessed that.
I think the FL Dems need to straighten this out within their state first. Yes, it’s unfortunate, but I don’t think we should allow FL Repubs to have such an impact on our national campaign.
How can the state legislature determine democratic rules on elections?
I believe primaries are run by the state, and paid by the state. Caucuses are run by the party and paid by the party.
The Rethugs control everything, what do you suggest FL Dems do? (Seriously.)
Is anyone here advocating that the Michigan delegates should be seated as is?
Howard Dean, as usual, is handling this beautifully.
Because even though it is a primary to determine delegates to the Dem convention, it uses state resources for the voting.
IIRC, one option that was considered by the state Dem parties (and maybe the DNC as well) and rejected was to let the votes stand as a non-binding beauty contest and have a caucus during the allowable time period to actually select the delegates. Caucuses can be done without the state resources being involved.
correcto
Campaign contributions are like pouring water on the sidewalk. It goes everywhere, and people are cynical. Now, if we could borrow Al Gore’s iron clad lock-box…
Texas Democratic Party Vice Chair Roy Laverne Brooks, Democratic National Committee member Mary Long of Georgia and South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Carol Fowler today endorsed Obama.
First Bill consorts with Poppy and now with ole rush…
gag.
Organize.
well, if anyone wants to wade through it, there’s a lot of info about the FL primary here:
http://www.makeitcountflorida......ount-faqs/
Gotcha. Thanks.
Now you’re sounding like the National Office in my union…
I didn’t quite understand something maybe you can help me with.
When the Dean statement came up on KO, Chuck Todd suggested that Dean could do better if he got out in front of things–does he simply mean that a decision sooner than later on Michigan and Florida would be better. I think he meant clarifying the delegate totals earlier beats keeping them in doubt. Does that make sense?
Also for reasons I’m not sure of people say it would not be a good thing for this to go to the “DNC credentials committee.” Maddow was one of them last night. Why do they feel that way?
Thanks Valley Girl. Here is the offending passage:
Get control of the state house. I know Dean is helping build the Party there. Yes, this may take some time.
As is, perhaps some sort of compromise could have been worked out? Don’t the dynamics there, but I do know things like this get done even in highly divisive legislatures.
Again, it’s unfortunate, but I don’t see why we should let the FL Repubs have such influence over us nationally.
As Chairman Dean has advised, I suggest the Florida Democratic Party submit a revised delegate selection plan to the DNC, providing for a caucus (thus no state approval required) to be paid for with money raised by both candidates specifically for that purpose (so that other contributors to those campaigns need not feel that their contributions went to pay for a problem not of their creation). If the Clinton campaign wants to raise the issue that caucuses are somehow less democratic and Democratic than primaries, the caucus could, by mutual agreement of the candidates, the state and national parties to be operated similar to a primary, e.g. voters have all day to show up at the caucus site and cast their vote, and need not remain there for hours while the delegate selection process occurs. But by calling it a caucus no state (Republican) approval) would be needed.
As I stated in comment 50 above, an imperfect solution to a thorny problem, but one that could help avoid losing the state in November because it allows Florida voters’ votes to be counted in the delegate selection process.
the backstroke?
I don’t know either..the last thing that I read on the subject was that if things continue as expected, Obama delegates would control the process.
Exacly so. You are allowig them to have an impact by not allowing Floria Demcatic primary voters a voice in the nominating process.
To be fair to Obama, Clinton and Florida Democrats, a new primary should held.
I know Christ was delighted to sign it to screw with the Democratic delegation, but if he had done the right thing and vetoed it did they have the votes to override it–and I don’t know this maybe someone from Florida did–were the Democrats opposing this as hard as they could when it happened?
McAuliffe told Tweety tonight the rules are the rules–’cept I think he was talking about something else. But still… are rules rules, or aren’t they?
And didn’t the Michigan Governor endorse Hillary a while back? Hmmmm, there wouldn’t be a little bias there? Kinda like the Limpballs/Bubba lovefest for Hillary? Sheesh, this is starting to look as Rube Goldbergian as Hillary healthcare back in the day.
Obviously I am out of the loop today.
The Demos should unite behind Ron Paul.
Charlie Crist sorry–Gov. of Fla.
Really, Clinton going on the Limbaugh show is a buried lede. I don’t care if it was a substitute host, I see no reason whatsoever why a Democrat should ever validate that program. That’s 1,000 times worse than going on Fox News.
…and many prominent Democrats have had the good sense not to go on Fox News.
agreed
Or not.
One thing that needs to be considered, 40% of Michigan Dems voted ‘uncommitted’… A redo is imperative if the delegates are to be seated…!
Jennifer Granholm Michigan Governor has been a staunch Clinton supporter early on in October. I included the link because historically it captures the mood of how the MSM saw this race a few months ago.
Michigan Gov. Granholm Endorses Hillary Clinton for President
PetePierce @ 116
So instead of the Dingellberries and the Rethug FL lege we’re supposed to take our marching orders from Chuck Todd now?
The concept of a caucus/primary as you state has merit as the most democratic way to resolve this dilemma but the cost would be substantial to the party. I’m not sure that it wouldn’t set a bad precedent for other rethug-controlled state legislatures.
I suspect that her internal polls don’t look so good.
No excuse, however.
Dean made clear that a do-over is one of the options within the rules (it’s one of the options that falls within “new delegate selection plans” in his statement above.) He was careful not to favor one option over another, but he wasn’t ruling out any that are within the rules, including that one.
MBW at Wampum also looks at this:
While Mark Green is purported to be a Clinton supporter, I don’t believe that is reason enough to discredit this sensible solution to the Michigan/Florida DNC convention delegation “problem”:
As Eric and I have hammered time and again, Florida, and to a lesser extent, Michigan, are critical battleground states in November - you just don’t dis 2.5 million voters without repercussions. You have to seat delegations for both these states in Colorado this summer, and you either revote or take the votes as they are.
Posted by MB Williams at 02:42 PM | Permalink |
How did you see this race 3 days ago?
Hey dday- just to change the topic a bit- what’s up in CA-46, and elsewhere in CA? Never mind the pres. stuff. Congressional races are SO important.
In my opinion it would be a bad move to wait and allow the Democratic National Convention credentials committee to decide the solution to this mess, as their options would be pretty much limited to (A) seating the Florida and Michigan delegations that were elected undemocratically and in violation of party rules, or (B) not seating them, with the result that the voters of Florida and Michigan would be shut out of the process, and as a result might punish the Democratic nominee in November in those states.
It would be too late for the credentials committee to call for a do-over, if this is not settled prior to the convention.
One possible solution, and perhaps Chairman Dean had this in mind, is to not wait until the convention itself, but convene the credentials committee early, perhaps in the next two to three months, to resolve this question so that if the committee decided a do-over was the wisdom of Solomon, there would be time to carry that out.
The problem with that is that I don’t think the credentials committee has the authority to resolve delegate challenges itself, but under party rules it can only recommend a solution to the convention…which will not convene until it is too late for a do-over. I’m not sure about that, however.
No–that’s not my suggestion. I was just contexting where I saw a statement I was hoping someone would explain from someone Todd–NBC’s political director who has a better math grip on delegates, super delegates, and for that matter DNC rules than I do. He also has a staff to help him with politics–and I don’t. That’s why I was asking the question here.
off to brush kitties (and sneeze)
to quote a fine commenter here, be excellent to each other…
OT…Well while we are distracted by a “do over”, the Thugs are possibly planning another October surprise. Howie Klein also has a Fallon story up.
Yep. One other good reason for this to be settled outside the credentials committee and earlier rather than later.
I agree, with one quibble — it really is a caucus, even if it’s run like a primary. As emptywheel has pointed out, the only real definition of a caucus is that it’s run by the party instead of the state. Caucuses can be run like a primary, so there’s no reason to say we’re “calling” it a caucus, it is one.
I was tweakin’ Chuck Todd, not you.
Methinks the pundit class are gettin’ a little too full of themselves on deciding what’s good for Dems these days.
what neuro said.
And we have to stop calling what might happen in Michigan and Florida a “do-over” or a “re-do.” There was no legitimate primary vote — no “do” to “re” or “over.”
Having the state parties submit new plans IS within the rules. If the new plans also follow the rules, and are acceptable to both campaigns, then we are still following the rules. And it’s not a do-over.
Redshift- thanks for clarifying one confusion I had about caucuses!
Yup
The problem is that the Florida legislature won’t do it. From what I’ve read, they moved up the primary specifically to screw with the Dems for their own advantage — there was a ballot measure on the primary ballot, and they hoped that making the Dem primary meaningless would depress Democratic turnout and make it more likely to pass. Consequently, I wouldn’t expect them to do anything that would be good for the Dems.
However, if caucus is substituted for legislated primary, then it might be workable.
Good point.
The answer to your question is here.
Typical Rethuglican phuckery. Logrolling christmas tree legislation with attached amendments that if opposed it campaign ads would’ve claimed “Candidate X voted to allow old men into your house to fondle your daughter.”
(Exaggerated for illustrative purposes–but just barely)
Nedra Pickler, of all people, has an AP story up:
http://ap.google.com/article/A.....gD8V7L9101
I agree — at best, that falls into the category of screwing every other Dem for his own advantage, and at worst, it’s just harmful with no advantage.
Yeah, dang straight Valley Girl. Congress.
President is so yesterday and uncool. The hip, now, in-crowd is paying attention to Congress.
“Presidential race got you down? The candidates are assholes and the process is a mess? Tired of the same old jerk presidential candidate consultants on TV every night? For a change of pace, try Congress! Just one small contribution, and the presidential election blahs will melt away.”
This may be simplistic but the reason I don’t expect Bush to attack Iran (although he hasn’t shown an alliance with being rational) is he simply doesn’t have the infrastructure, or the troops to do it with. There are enough people at the Pentagon and in the myriad defense offices in the West Wing who know that bombing Iran would be fairly insane for us to do right now–we don’t have any specific value targets and it would unleash further chaos in the Middle East although when Israel bombed the Iraqi reactor in 1981 I thought it made plenty of sense.
In this home we are going upstairs to talk, watch some tube and go to bed. Sleep tight folks and sweet dreams.
Me and okk.
I really like the Mark Green proposal of April 22nd as yet another Super Duper Tuesday. But I have to review faxed talking points from each campaign before I decide what I really think.
*kidding*
Where do I find this story?
Self-funded by the state Democratic party. Workable.
Bombing is still an option.
the Kurtz one on Fallon
I just checked Limbaughs web page looking for the “vote for Clinton” promo. Low and behold, front and center is a darkblack style image of Hillary in a witch costume.
I still can’t get over Bill going on that show.. It’s disgusting.
It reminds me a lot of Shinseki’s canning, and Wolfowitz’s assertion that Shinseki’s congressional testimony of 250,000 troops are needed to invade Iraq, as ‘wildly off the mark’…! Hmmm…
Just trying to understand this mess - does this mean that a republican state legislature essentially disenfranchised a the democratic party with respect to selecting their own presidential candidate.
You folks need some kind of a federal election commission to standardize some procedures. This is ridiculouser and ridiculouser.
Go Andrew Rice!
It’s 3 a.m.
Something is happening in the world…
…and the phone doesn’t ring in the Bu’ush White House because these dipwads are outa money and didn’t pay the fucking phone bill on time.
Not to worry. Help is on the way.
wesgpc- uh, I think you are snarking me.
but, the deal is, most of us have already voted in the pres primaries. I have, and I know you have.
I want better Dems in congress.
Why should the contributors be asked to fund a caucus or primary in states that broke he rules. Let the states pay or don’t seat them.
You got it. They set it up knowing it was against both parties’ rules. The Dems took away all the FL delegates, the Rs only took half. And you’re right, it’s really screwed up.
Thanks for the link.
We have no real National elections. Each state sets its own rules. The Republicans of Florida violated their own party rules as well, and their delegates are not counted either by the national party. It’s just been more obvious on the Democratic side.
for a second i thought you wanted to bomb FL and MI
personally i think we should just leave FL to the gators and leave MI alone
I want more and better Floridians
why?
here ya go
You folks need some kind of a federal election commission to standardize some procedures.
:) The Constitution is in the way, which gives all such power to the states (except in Bush v. Gore whereupon it’s obviously up to the conservatives on the Supreme Court).
Sorry DWT is locking up my browser but the story is also here.
I am removing my refrigerator magnet with Bill’s picture on it that sez
This is really beyond the pale. I don’t care if there was a guest host.
and Michigeese
Potentially creating grounds for declaring the results of a general election null and void? Or am I giving credit for too much planning? Because it sounds like this is being done for local reasons.
thanks!
And now Charlie Crist is on McStain’s short list for Veep.
Funny how that worked out, huh?
{not that kind of funny!}
OT, but you just won’t believe this!
“WASHINGTON - The FBI acknowledged Wednesday it improperly accessed Americans’ telephone records, credit reports and Internet traffic in 2006, the fourth straight year of privacy abuses resulting from investigations aimed at tracking terrorists and spies.”
Who would’ve thunk it?
And to think they could cave over FISA.
How these spineless members of Congress accept their pay is just beyond me.
hahaha! oh my yes! Howie has been all over it as to the fallout of Rahm D-Trip bad FL congressmen (national)
Well, that is a bit of an inconvenience, I’ll grant you that.
After watching all this I have to say though that Elections Canada is a class act and I love it more every day. Which is where I’m coming from wrt standardized procedures.
You are welcome. And welcome! Howie is a must-read for me, every day.
PetePierce, Valley Girl got the original link, way upstairs, which is multiple links of all questions about the Florida Primaries.
I wish I had half the gooooglin’ skills she does, I might blog more.
I don’t know the numbers but if MI delegates were apportioned with the undecided vote going all to Obama and in Fl the result stood as is..would there be any effect on the ultimate outcome? If not, then do it and move on.
One thing I disagree with Howie about, is it wouldn’t be Wag the Dog, and bolster McCain with the electorate, but rather it’d produce the cataclysmic conditions to invoke the COG procedures, Martial Law, baby…! 8-(
But then how would you feed our national addiction?
Teddy SF makes a good point. It is not ‘re-do’ since there was no ‘do’ in the first place.
I think it is more important to do things democratically and keep party unity, and elect a Democrat. Whether it is HRC or Obama, that is a minor detail.
Except for one thing. I think HRC’s gang of nasty retrograde cronies would be a minor nuisance, except for the damage they might do to Dr. Dean’s 50 state strategy. Who here would argue that the 50 state strategy has not been a success? I think it is needed for long term Democratic political leadership of the country.
So, the one thing that troubles me about HRC is her vile crowd. This of course makes her quasi-vile, I suppose, but that does not bother me, since I think she would be a very good president. But if HRC is the nominee and next president, how do we protect the progressive gains in grassroots organizing.
In the respect, HRC and her crowd are fetid, rotten and foul , and really stink to high heaven on that point, in my opinion. And that is the main problem I have with her. But, in my opinion, it is a bad idea to use that to hate on HRC and obsess over who will win presidency. That is out of our control as individuals, and even for the mighty FDL. But planning on how to protect gains Democratic Party has made no matter who wins the election.
Going back to the Big liberal state, Big Media, wedge-issue, wege-interst group, cowardly, weasily, Mark Penn style-asshole politics will be along term disaster for the Democrats, even if they can negative campaign their way to victory this time.
(Sorry to diss HRC. I can diss Obama just as bad on other points, and will at the first excuse. CHS was right, these dudes are ambitious polticians. Neither is a savior. They are poltical tools that should be used to the best advantage for the long term benefit of the country.)
Declaring the general election null and void? No, hardly. Just a way to drive a wedge between the DNC and the Dems in FL. Someone earlier in the thread said the rethugs wanted to depress turnout for a local issue that Dems would have voted against.
Howie sure packs a whole lot of info in short spaces, sprinkled generously with colorful accuracies.
You are correct. My point was that it could be run similar to a primary, but by the party, not the state, in order to minimize the Clinton campaign’s objections to caucuses–make it as primary-like as possible (just show up and vote, don’t need to wait hours to be counted, etc.)
OFG, see my 189!
Just one of those strange coincidences… ;)
Same McCain!
okay. got it.
Thank you, by the way.
What prevented the party from simply saying “NO”? The DNC would not have left Florida “voiceless” and would have arranged funding, and a date that did not raise such issues. The party leadership in Florida also used the Republican action as a rationale (and I wonder how many Democrats in the legislature voted for it as well)?
I see two ways to resolve this. One is a do-over. To keep costs down Democratic registrants could do the vote by mail. Everyone else would have to caucus. That way any crossovers (Republicans/Indepoendents) would have to actually make an effort to physically appear to vote, and register as a Democrat. Do something like the Texas system…with 2/3rds being those who vote in the “Primary” and the remaining 1/3rd being by Caucusers. That would also devalue the Cross-Over votes a little bit. Enthusiastic Democrats would be given a little extra weight (as in Texas).
OR. The DNC could seat the delegations. But this is where the uncommitted superdelegates come into the picture. Dean could require that they commit to maintaining the proportionality of the committed delegate counts before the inclusion of the Michigan/Florida delegations. That is, in the interest of party unity, the Superdelegates would have to “return to balance” any gains or losses that those two delegations changed.
They’d get their representation, but they would not be allowed to influence the outcome. I’m not sure how Dean could arrange this delicate situation. But he would have to get a roughly equal number of Superdelegates to act in this “balancing act”. These could be truly uncommitted Superdelegates…or he could insist that those who have made verbal committments to one or the other candidate be in a pool that would be compelled to change their votes if necessary. I think the latter would actually be better, since it would prevent shenanigans.
Good point, Teddy (I’m probably being EPU’d)
Hi TSF- sly, sly, very sly, but I’m sure OFG got it!
Do like my dispatcher says, if I can’t get it all done in 24 hours i’ll have to start working nights.
The GOP rules only threw out half their delegates. Presumably that difference is why the legislature thought the date would depress Democratic turnout more than Republican.
Except DWT locks up FF on my Mac.
People who claim to be change makers should be bold enough to challenge convention. There’s no rule barring a potential nominee from debating an actual nominee. Only convention stands in the way. Either Obama or HRC should call out McCain and challenge him to a debate. The only condition would be that the other Dem. would also challenge McCain to a one on one debate. Wouldn’t you like to see, in real life, how each of these candidates stacks up against McCain before the decision is final? If the other Dem. won’t issue the same challenge, it’s a sign of weakness. And if McCain won’t accept the challenge he’s a really a weenie instead of a hero.
Got a little carried away in last comment. I have the presidential primary blahs myself, and am starting to have primary fits of some kind.
Anyway, I am curious -am I correct that the HRC crowd is a threat to Dean’s 50-state strategy? If so, how can progres of Democratic party over last four years be protected, regardless of whether HRC or Obama wins.
And, anything about Obama’s crowd that presents a threat to Dr. Dean’s 50-state remedy?
My upcoming Sing-Along-With-FISA song…
Big Brother
[1]
BIG BROTHER,
I bet he’s watchin’ you.
Dey’s just one problem,
He don’t know what to do.
Lib’ruls and Quakers,
Got ‘em all right in his sight,
I feel much safer now,
He’s on ‘em day and night.
[2]
BIG BROTHER,
He be surveillin’ me.
Readin’ all my emails,
I gots no privacy.
I called my mother,
He taped the whole damn thing.
Send me to Git’mo, right,
It’ll help ‘em make me sing.
Chorus
BIG BROTHER,
YO!, you can kiss my ass,
BIG BROTHER,
You got no brains, no class.
BIG BROTHER,
Gimme my Constitution back,
What in the world
We think we’re tryin’ to save?
[3]
BIG BROTHER,
We know he’s stalkin’ us.
Can’t find Osama,
But he found my Uncle Gus.
They searched at Rite-Aid,
Found his Viagra pills.
And the credit union
Gave up his VISA bills,
[4]
BIG BROTHER,
Jus’ can’t connect them dots,
Chasin’ ev’ry shadow
The only game he gots.
My Google hist’ry
Won’t help you stop Jihad,
Yo, gumshoe morons,
Why don’t you try Riyadh.
Chorus
BIG BROTHER,
YO!, you can kiss my ass,
BIG BROTHER,
You got no brains, no class.
BIG BROTHER,
Give us our Constitution back,
What in the world
We think we’re tryin’ to save?
Words and music copyright 2008
Bobby Gladd, All Rights Reserved.
?
No problem. :)
RedShift,
Yeah, I saw that and kinda knew that. Half-assed cheaters right?
Well, well. That’s pretty sad news for Mac users. I have a totally old PC, and use FF, and I NEVER have a problem reading DWT.
I guess a major sticking point will be whether it’s an “open” primary-caucus or only for registered Dems. Considering that one advantages one candidate.
Always been my motto:
Get a PC.
Yeah, the last straw for me with the Clinton campaign was the realization that they were running a Terry McAuliffe fifteen-state campaign, the kind that may win the presidency but harms Democrats at every other level. In a year when that’s the only way to win, there’s some rationale, but the way things are going for Democrats now, it’s just lazy and self-destructive.
I don’t love everything about Obama, but in terms of how he’s organizing and running the national campaign in ways that will build the party, he’s head-and-shoulders above the Clinton campaign.
707
Once you go Mac, you never go back.
The Obama campaign will net us more Senators and Congress People than the Clinton Operation. Ground up aways does.
Noooooooo!
Do NOT reschedule them for that early. And leave us here in NC as pretty much the ONLY state whose primary would come too late to matter? If they’re to be rescheduled they should go last.
I honestly think the only fair thing to do in Florida is to count the 1.5 million votes that were already cast in an election that was held on even ground for both candidates. A revote forces people to vote twice to have their vote count - a condition not imposed on anyone else anywhere else in the country. A caucus just invalidates all those votes and replaces a count Clinton won with a method that wiould inherently favor Obama.
Michigan, of course, is an entirely different kettle of fish since the election there was NOT held on a level playing field. I’d donate to a fund specifically set up to fund a new Michigan primary. So long as it wasn’t scheduled before NC! ;)
I’ve Mac’n on linux!
heh, have ah McHead :)
This has been posted before I think, but it pretty much tells the story, the math, and the outcome of the dem primary:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23491757
Can we get OVER this now?
The DNC is kickin the DLC, back to where they SHOULD be.
Deep in a cave behind some rock in the darkest depths of the Mordor Of Their Making.
And NOW we can get on with real Dem Progressive Politics. *G*
Well, till it turns out, Obama was a shill too. N THAT’S comin in his first quarter of his presidency.
But I’ll wait till THEN to say, I told ya so, pansies.
Kuch, Edwards, real vehicles for change, and shut out by establishment 1% elite’s.
Can I see the truth of your progressive? Huh? Can I?
That’s some phone number ya got there, tw3k…
The reactor built by the French with some Italian materials 18 miles south of Bagdad wasfully capable of making nuclear weapons that would easily destroy Israel, much as Hamas and Hizballah have vowed to do lately. It’s only 556 miles from Bagdad to Israel.
It was able to make bombs as potent as we used on Japan in WWII.
I suspect that Israel bombed the reactor in Syria for the same reason–with full advanced knowledge of the US and approval. The US will not talk about it. The Israelis claimed that North Koreans were on the site. Many writers say that Cheney’s office staffed the recent bombing or to quote Semour Hirsh “the US wanted people to know that they have a proxy and that Israel will go bang for us.”
As you know currently bombs have been sailing into Israel this week and killing/injuring people. On Wednesday a week ago today a student was killed in the parking lot of a college campus in Southern Israel after shrapnel penetrated his chest. A 10 year old boy was severely injured in a hospital parking lot nearby after 25 rockets were launched.
This has been a long struggle and I don’t blame the Israelis for aggresively taking measures. I know that if 25 rockets started killing people in my city or anywhere else in the U.S. there would be swift reprisal particularly when the source was known.
Our current president has not been very effective in striking the perpetrators of 911 because they are not in Iraq where he has chosen to continue a fiasco.
Sorry it took me a while to see your question.
well… i could’ave pasted it here *g
Can I see the truth of your progressive? Huh? Can I?
Neither of them are true progressives. We are where we are. McCain is more bush on steriods. He is the true evil.
Regarding to whether some in Hillary’s crowd are a threat to Dean’s 50-State strategy…we’ll there have been lots of comments from many on that side that “Obama has only won the Red States” (untrue BTW), or that Hillary won the big Democratic States which are needed in the General election (but would Obama LOSE them?). And it’s pretty clear that while Obama has challenged almost every State, Clinton opted not to compete in many States. Thus her presence there has been negligible.
While all the pundits look to Pennsylvania, it should be pointed out that “States like North Carolina, North Dakota, and Oregon are still in the mix. Even if Clinton wins big in PA, Obama could balance that with wins in these other States. If he’s even close in PA…well then (like the last bunch of races) she could lose delegates.
That’s why seating the MI and FL delegations AS IS are such a major thing for her campaign right now. As has been pointed out, she can’t win a majority” of the committed delegates without them (or unless a new legitimated elections in FL and MI brings forth the same delegate proportions). And without those she can’t win over Superdelegates required to win the nomination.
BTW…if the “Uncommitted” from Michigan go to Obama (who was the only remaining candidate that wasn’t on the ballot)…how would this impact the delegate counts. Are people assuming that Clinton gets her pool from MI and Obama doesn’t get the Uncommitted? I would assume that those were either Edwards or Obama supporters.
But that’s the point. The original election was announced as not being legitimate long before it occurred. IT WAS ILLIGITIMATE. That’s why a voter needs to go through the process again. It’s only fair to those who, hearing that it was “a beauty contest” opted not to cast a vote on that day. It’s only fair to the candidates, who opted not to camapign in Florida or Michigan.
Both Hillary and Obama voters will have to vote again, but one also allows those that didn’t vote to have their voices heard.
It’s like holding a sporting event that is unsanctioned. Several contestants don’t show up or train for it, simply because they know it’s illicit. One guy wins, and then later wants to use that race in deciding who gets the prize for winning the most races in the season. That’s changing the rules midstream. Technically the race shouldn’t count at all. And even doing another race is actually a FAVOR to the person that needs that extra race…and might win it.
The problem is that the running of this race costs money. If the Florida party had not run an earlier election they could have at least sued the State for the money to run a later election…because the Republicans HAD committed money for a REPUBLICAN Primary. Thus the allocation of funds would have been found discriminatory based on Party Affiliation. But by running the race early that option, and even the one where the DNC might have been favorably disposed to funding it themselves, was eliminated.
Beggers can’t be choosers, as they say. Florida and Michigan may be compelled to running their decision-making processes on the cheap if they want someone else to pay for it.
Because the Superdelegates would be “compelled” to put the proportions back to where they were before those two States got involved.
Let’s say Dean requires that each candidate commit 20 Declared Superdelegates each to a pool that now are committed to “preserve party unity”. If the delegate counts before you add in FL-MI…is at a 55%-45% Obama-Clinton ratio…and then the added votes from those two States shift it to 51%-49% Clinton, the pool of superdelegates would be Committed to making the original ratios by switching their verbal commitment in favor of party unity.
Florida and Michigan get their seats…their votes “count”. But they are not decisive. Now if Hillary is ahead before these two delegations are seated then the same balancing would occur. She wouldn’t “gain” delegates PROPORTIONALLY.
No one is “disenfranchising” these States votes. After all Superdelegates have the role to do “what’s best for the party”!
Anytime anyone talks about “winning states”, they are being sucked into the media’s penchant for drama. Winning states means little. It’s the delegates within the borders of those states that matter. That’s why Clinton’s arguments make no sense. She keeps saying she “won states.” If she won what she needed to win, she would not be about 142 delegates behind not to mention the delegates for Obama that will keep coming in all week or the Super Delegates that keep commiting to him nearly every day. It is estimated that next Tuesday night, he’ll be about 162 delegates ahead of her.
I guess mentioning states so much in the media confers some sense of jingoism in people. “Obama won our state”–it’s delegates/delegates/delegates.
Clinton did not win a count in Florida. There was no legitimate election in Florida. There was no campaigning in Florida and other candidates were not even on the ballot because they complied with the DNC.
I understand she wants to substitute it now as an election so that people who stayed home because they didn’t have a legitimate election to vote in per the rules of the DNC would be disenfranchised and she could chelate votes that weren’t part of a real election.
I don’t think I mentioned anything about “winning a State”. Maybe my “track race” analogy was imperfect…but it was directed at the idea of changing rules after the decision has been made…not implying that winning a race = state. All analogies are imperfect, otherwise they’d merely describe the actual event. The value of an analogy is that sometimes it gets people to see something complex in a broader scope.
People have a sense of “playing by the rules” in Sports…in politics, not so much.
In fact Mike Gavel only campaigned there. The election was not held on even ground for both candidates because they actually agreed there was no valid election there.
Hi Cuz…
For the Dems to right off these delegations will have ramifications come November. A “redo” now has all of the feel of a sudden death overtime being held in three ring circus. This problem is, as you so aptly put, a bad penny…
The only logical way to handle this is to seat the delegations. The creditials committee could do this before the convention. While maybe not ideal this solution at least does not smack of disenfranchising real voters who did come out and vote.
I wasn’t being critical of any analogies or you, but as was hammered tonight on KO by several people–it distorts grasping who is winning when you think of 3/4 states last night because of
Percentages that you see represent very different delegate apportionment in Texas and if you go state by state in all 4 states–Hillary is going to come out with a gain of 8-10 delegates. The headline in my paper was two inches large in type I haven’t seen since 911.
I am in a place which is in the top ten media markets in the country. I just reread every article on the election. They list the percentages of the states and the total delegates in each state available.
If you showed that front section and all its articles to anyone who doesn’t know a little about delegates, they would conclude that delegates were assigned directly by the percentages of voters. No where do they list the actual delegate yield for Clinton or Obama per state.
I find this ludicrous, and really unfortunate because many people don’t understand that while Clinton did do better than expected, she is so significantly behind in delegates it is near mathematically impossible for her to gain enough pledged delegates from the remianing 12 states.
No one could tell from reading any article or list that Hillary comes away with 8-10 Max delegates after what Obama called “the sound and fury.” He didn’t say it signified nothing, and of course it didn’t. But it signified a very small delegate gain by Hillary and I was stressing that to think in terms of states won makes that hard if not impossible to realize.
I mean in that particular major newspaper. The NYT, Politico, and the network sites do make the distinction although many of their charts don’t.
The CNBC, CBS, CNN projected winner charts last night did not make it graphically at all and I know a lot of people will go through the rest of their lives (not here of course) not understanding this.
I think it is a great idea - seriously. People are all fired up. I bet the turnout in Florida and Michigan would be enormous. So, let them vote.
Shouldn’t it be possible eventually to vote online, MoveOn.org-style?
The Clintons will wait to offer this until universities are no longer in session, making it harder for Obama to mobilize turnout in Michigan and Florida (in June). She can say it right after Pennsylvania and it will take until June to make it happen. It would be hard for Obama to refuse, but it will be very bad for the party if this all drags on until then. But, it may also be the case that by then all Obama would have to do is get 40% in these states to get the nomination. Other than PA, he will win most of the remaining states.
It was there yesterday, and notice now it says “We Got What We Wanted…Three More Months of Chaos.” It makes sense they would take it down after OH and TX. If there are more open primaries I’m sure we’ll be seeing the “Vote Hillary” campaign again.
Why did Hillary even leave her name on MI ballot anyway? Odd how that doesn’t get talked about…