Despite the fact that opinion polls for the last year have shown strong majorities anxious to withdraw American combat troops from Iraq, irrespective of what is happening on the ground, it is an article of absolute faith among Republicans and their almost ordained standard bearer that the American people don’t really believe what they’ve repeatedly said.
And so when John McCain is asked why, if the surge is so successful, he still opposes withdrawal, and labels the Democrats as advocates of "surrender," he is reduced to the argument that once Americans fully understand the consequences of unilateral withdrawal, they will accept the wisdom and necessity of staying for as long as it takes for the US to achieve victory, however victory is defined.
By contrast, Clinton and Obama seem convinced that the American people have sorted out the essentials. The war was a mistake; the politicians who led us into that invasion and occupation committed a huge strategic blunder — as Obama notes, "they drove us into a ditch" — and those who wish to stay cannot be trusted either to analyze America’s strategic interests or extract us from their own blunders. It’s a simple argument, and it’s compelling.
Frank Rich opines on how this logic could play out for John McCain and his inability to transcend his own past and the limitations of his own analysis:
Rather than dwell on this ancient history, Mr. McCain said last week, we should talk about “what we are going to do now.” But his answer to “what we are going to do now” in Iraq is merely more of what he did then.
If, as he says, the surge is “succeeding,” voters may well join the Democratic ticket (possibly including the Vietnam War hero Jim Webb?) in asking why we’ll still have some 140,000 troops on indefinite duty in Iraq as of this summer, a year and a half after this “temporary” escalation was announced. It will be a slam-dunk for Democrats to argue that it’s long past time for the Iraqis to stand up on a sensible timetable that will allow the Americans to stand down.
It’s also possible, especially now that Iraq’s provincial elections have been abruptly scuttled by warring Shiite factions, that the surge will stop “succeeding” and Iraq will again erupt in sectarian violence. Then Mr. McCain will have to propose a new and larger surge — and explain how he’ll pay for it while the economy slumps and he extends the Bush tax cuts. Either way, he offers voters no tangible exit strategy beyond his constant refrain that the commander in chief should take his orders from Gen. David Petraeus.
The White House has set up the fall to give General Petraeus another opportunity to save them from their own blunders. This last week’s manipulation of the withdrawal "pause" stories was apparently designed to keep the public dangling for McCain’s benefit. General Petraeus will then appear before Congress next September to tell us that the "surge" has been successful, but we need the troops to protect the provincial elections and/or more time is needed to determine whether further withdrawals would be catastrophic to the Iraqis and US interests. And some in the media are already buying it.
But I suspect the American people have made the same judgment about Iraq they made 30 years ago about Vietnam. They want out, and anyone who says we should leave will carry the day, no matter what else is happening.
This is not a logic the Republicans can understand or accept. They will try to avoid this dilemma by insisting that no matter what the surge outcome is, any withdrawal would be a self-inflicted defeat with awful consequences. They will campaign against surrender, because they can’t imagine doing otherwise.
It’s hard to know what will happen if we actually begin to withdraw in earnest. Many but not all Iraqis may breath a huge sigh of relief and then through fits and starts begin to sort out their own affairs without the crushing pressure of an occupation. Some may become endangered and require our attention, and it may be ugly for a long time. But Democrat should have no illusions about getting help from Republicans on seeing this through.
No matter what the facts are on the ground, the Democratic President will be vilified for surrendering to the enemy, betraying our troops, and abandoning our Iraqi allies. Republicans will argue, as McCain already has, that the Democrats risk "handing a country over to al Qaeda," even though the chances that a majority Shia regime and its best friends in Iran will allow that is probably zero. The Republicans will do every thing they can to obscure the fact they got us into this horrible mess and no only had no plan for getting us out but foolishly created conditions making it harder to leave. Indeed, facing likely electoral defeat in November, the principal foreign policy goal of the McCain candidacy is not to "save" Iraq but to blame the Democrats for losing it.
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Scarecrow!
Caw Caw!
Great Scarecrow!
Afternoon, firedoggielaker thingies. How’s everyone doing?
Hey, NBC just had a piece on McCain and Hagee!
Victory from what?
Victory…because…there were no WMD’s, but we will stay for 100 years until they make some or we sell them to them, and then we claim victory and leave?
Victory…umm…because we finally get them to throw flowers and candy to get us to leave?
Victory….umm…because there’s nobody left alive in Iraq?
Victory….umm…because the people whose lives we have ruined decide they don’t want to get us out of there anymore, because we are such nice people now.
Victory…umm…when we find Osama Bin Laden alive and well and living in Baghdad?
Victory…I’m too dumb as Charlotte pointed out, to figure out what Victory is.
At least we can count on a staunch ally against the Iranians — oh, never mind.
At least we can count on democracy blooming in the middle East — oh, never mind.
At least we can count on a society safe for Iraqi women and children — oh, never mind.
Well, we need to stay to achieve Victory. Until a Democrat’s in the White House. Then the Democrats can be blamed for surrender.
30 years ago about Vietnam.
Lil more than 30 my brother!
Nice post, Mr Scarecrow. McCain’s Love of War is very crucial to a Democratic sweep this November. Top to bottom, straight ticket, President to Dogcatcher — Democrats all!
No matter what the facts are on the ground, the Democratic President will be vilified for surrendering to the enemy, betraying our troops, and abandoning our Iraqi allies.
The more things change the more they stay the same!
interesting. That may be their first story on this; at least I hadn’t seen one frm NBC. My theory is they were shielding not only McCain by Russert, because raising the subject will call into questions Timmeh’s grilling of Obama.
It is amazing how closely Iraq tracks Vietnam. Not only did lies get us into both wars, we were told we couldn’t leave Vietnam because of dire consequences. Remember the domino theory. There is nationalism at stake-these colors don’t run-and it is painful to write off so much life and property. We left Vietnam and we will leave Iraq. We don’t have our hearts in empire. One reason Iraq veterans have so much post traumatic stress is because our soldiers don’t have the stomach for breaking into houses and threatening mostly innocent families. The sooner we are out of there, the better.
I’m not sure McCain “loves war” so much as he can’t deal with the concept that his country made a mistake and needs to withdraw without victory. That concept of America is completely foreign to his world view. JMO.
That kiddies is the Rovian Republican Master Plan. The republicans have set up an “Operation Frequent Wind” contingency to make it look like the failure will belong to the next (Democratic) President who orders the evacuation of Baghdad and Mess O’Potamia. The question will be will they use The Clash’s “Should I Stay or Should I Go?” as the code for getting the fuck out of Dodge (or Baghdad as the case may be?
They basically focused on his “anti-Catholic” stance. Mc Cain said lots of people endorse candidates that the candidates may not agree with. That’s a relief.
I was dating from the time the public accepted the withdrawal and then made no great outcry when the North reinvaded. I don’t remember any great public clamor to reoccupy South Vietnam.
yeah.
It hurts so much to think about this happening to honest to goodness real people, people like us; and worst of all, we made it happen to them.
Yea, and imagine what it would be like if we were losing a hundred + a week.
Since I’m a stupid woman Democrat and I want out of Iraq, I guess I’ll have to get advice from McCain and Petraeus to figure out exactly to whom we should wave our itsy bitsy white surrender flag….
But…but…but…didn’t GWB43 actually already “surrender” when he left Afghanistan to flail and let OBL “supposedly” leave during Tora Tora in order to invade and occupy the sovereign country, Iraq resulting in the death of millions.
Bush already surrendered to OBL. But, who do you surrender to in Iraq?
Gotcha, but that was still 75 no?
Tora Bora, Tora Tora was the call sign for the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Tora Bora?
Charlotte Allen told me I was stupid, and I am. I’m snarky too.
I wonder if Bush & Cheney are really out to break the US military. It would suit their strategy: “See? our armed forces aren’t sufficient! We need to hire Blackwater to bridge the gap! We need a more, bigger Blackwater!!! National emergency! national emergency!”
Is that where we’re heading?
Bob in HI
You probably shouldn’t believe everything you read in the Washington Post — unless Ms. Howells has checked it out and says it’s okay.
LOL
They just had all these Hillary Women from Ohio talking about how “scary” the world is. Jesus H Christ.
Dick Cheney & Donald Rumsfeld have said since the Nixon Days that America’s military doesn’t have to big…what it needs is better hi-tech bombs. See? The neocons like to blame Clinton for drawing down the military (whatever that means…we were at peace with the planet back then for the most part weren’t we?), but really, it’s been the Bush Regime who has done it all by themselves. Their theory is one pilot per lots of bombs.
Well I’d feel more assured if she answered the phone quicker.
They like stuff with no pilot at all too!
And yes Bob….when the military is small, ole Georgie (the king) has to have his own SS to protect him and to keep the nation in control!
Yes they do, Raven! This is also why Bush has decided to use the National Guard to fight in Iraq. They’re cheaper and it puts the mainland at risk too. They love that shit.
I agree with Scarcrow, but as far as the election goes, I believe tying the Iraq war to the kitchen tables issues such as if we were out of Iraq we could use that money for healthcare, education, and improving social security is more effective and easier for the average voter to understand. This affects them more directly and they don’t have to try to remember back seven years of history to sort out the Iraq issue.
Well, yes, Bob;) They are above the law and require no oversight. Nothing can touch them. They are totally deregulated. Between Blackwater and signing statements – wow!
They also decided to use the guard so that there would be less resistance from regular folks compared to what would happen if there were a draft.
If you didn’t see the youtube about fear posted earlier it’s worth a gander
The more they break the country, the more people there will be to run them the hell out of here. Right now, people are being polite by attempting to vote them out in unprecedented numbers. If they succeed in breaking it further, all hell will break loose. They are miscalculating the power of the people. 300,000,000 pissed off people is a lot of pissed off people.
That’s a good one!
Love the video! So true, huh?
Evening Scarecrow, evening dawgs -
McCain and the Republicans are delusional if they think that they can run on the “More war, less jobs” platform and win the election.
But far be it from me to tell them not to try.
Now I’m going to go up and read the comments.
You could be right about the political wisdom of linking Iraq to domestic budgets/economy. The idea is that the McCain argument will make people uncomfortable about withdrawal, but the “why are we still spending $12 billion a month there” argument may help the electorate get beyond McCains argument.
I don’t think even Obama is likely to make the argument that our occupation is a moral mistake, even though he keeps saying he wants to change the mentality that got us into the war. He’s never defined that, as far as I know.
…less 27% – 219,000,000… still a buncha piss & vinegar
;~P
You got that right! And I’m just one of them, lil ole me. Wait until they see the others. They’ll wish all 300,000,000 were QuakerGirls. Teeheehee.
Mr. McCains views on how to achieve peace in the Middle East are nuttier than a fruit cake. It is imperative that McCain be stopped next November.
By November, there are gonna be a whole lot of pissed of Americans if Iran and/or Syria turn into battlefields…Nevermind the economy….McCain will be toast and so will all the Neocons…
It would be so great if 100,000,000 Americans stormed the White House one night with arms across their chests and their lower lips sticking out like a cartoon character. What would Georgie do then? Run to Mommy in Maine? Bah hahahahahahaha! Oh yeah, like she has the balls to intervene. She lives on the ocean and can escape the country fast! She wouldn’t be sticking around! LOL
Well, I’m going to post Raven’s fine video link on my blog and then call it a night. What’s wrong? Let’s just say all the snow I’ve shoveled here over the past two months has caught up with me. All muscles on the left side of my neck and my left shoulder joint has had it. See? I’m having trouble looking forward at the moment. Hell, I can’t even laugh without it hurting at this point. ;-)
Have a great night everyone!
Man I wish I was as optimistic as ya’ll!
It’s almost unbelievable that McCain is the Republican frontrunner. Can you imagine?
I look forward to the Obama and McCain debates.
Not only that but the economy too, if they can find a way to hold off the impending economic disaster until 2009. Then it’s all going to be on the next President. The Republicans have no interest in winning this election. They know as well as you and I do that Iraq and more war are a non-starter. They’re taking a dive. McCain votes for torture and then embraces Hagee? C’mon.
That’s the “master plan”.
We like your stuff. KatyinMaine.
Lahoma and okk.
Did you see that Sgt. Woodrow “Woody” Keeble got his Medal of Honor today?
There are a lot of pissed off Americans now and everything in this post above is true. There has to be a President and people in Congress willing to “call bullshit” to the distortion of the facts on the ground.
If you want to get the flavor of how Republicans are already handling this, just listen to Mary Matlin on MTP or anywhere else she shows up.
According to Matlin: “Americans are not interested in what happened so far in Iraq. They want to know what’s going to happen in the future. It’s not even one of the top two issues now in polls.”
The facts on the ground are not significantly improved and there are a lot of dynamics that insure they won’t be. Bush has a ridiculous spin on the veto of the recent law, claiming it shows that Iraqis are engaged in the political process.
Post-financial-holocaust coming up.
Speech will be totally regulated.
1,775 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen KayinMain and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“This is also why Bush has decided to use National Guard to fight in Iraq. They’re cheaper and it puts the mainland at risk too. They love that shit.”
Yes indeed, truer than maybe you intended. I have for several years been VERY concerned about the taxpayer funded corporate mercenary army that has not only been used in Iraq but deployed at least once on American soil (New Orleans). Now the governors of various states, most notably California, are raisin’ their voices about not only gettin’ their troops back but the equipment too. Now look at this scenario: The standin’ military is over-extended in Iraq, the state militias are not only drained of troops but now bankrupt of equipment, the various shell corporations have upwards of 130,000 mercenaries under arms with Blackwater holdin’ an elite force of 30-35,000 deployable at a moments notice in the homeland and there is no force left short of the Sargent at Arms or the DC police to enforce congressional actions.
OK, so now we enter an election period where there maybe a nationwide shortage of voting machines, ballots and space and demonstrations against government maleficence may clog the streets. How am I doin’…see anythin’ through the smoke there brothers and sisters?
We have experienced a fascist takeover of our country and it is soon to lose it’s smilin’ face…can we call these bastards fascists yet, for God’s sake??!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, FASCISTS ARE DANGEROUS TO CHILDREN AND OTHER LIVING THINGS!!
In this house we are pleased, my friend. Very pleased and proud. This man is a giant.
I must make an exit and get the last of the sun. I really need the vitamine D. Then I’ll start dinner. In the mean time, raise hell. Or better, raze hell.
Hey LS,
does this blog make me look fat?
and it’s so nice that McCain is giving the Surge a big bear hug during this election season…
I agree.
That would be SA, Brownshirts.
Visualise. President Obama. AG Edwards. Secretary of State, Dodd. VP Richardson. SOCTUS Justice Hillary Rodham Clinton. Ambassador to the United Nations, William Jefferson Clinton.
Love your hair!!! Are those extensions? Isn’t he just the cutest thing?
Sec Def: Webb
Whirled Peas?
Oh, that would be just great. We could finish the great cause in Vietnam that was stolen by the press and you chicken shit liberals
Maybe Obam is avoiding making the argument that the occupation is a moral mistake to keep from alienating republicans that might come over and vote for him in the general election. He knows if the election is close those voters could make the difference for him.
That’s good.
Webb would do that? Ok….well, who for Sec Def then…
Gen. Clark for Chief of (presidential) Staff?
In a November 19, 2006 appearance on Meet the Press, Webb told host Tim Russert, “And I, you know, I’m one of these people who — there, there aren’t many of us — who can still justify for you the reasons that we went into Vietnam, however screwed up the strategy got.”[7]
[edit] Post-military
1,775 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Raven and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I know yer skeptical about the extent and depth of the discontent among your brothers and sisters in-country here, brother Raven, so let me share this little story that happened in the Post Office of our little burg this afternoon:
I was in line to send a package and I engaged the postal worker at the counter (who I know well) about the New Federal Express drop off box outside the front door…I said somethin’ about “what genius in Washington decided to put FedEx boxes outside the Post Office?” The postal gal, began a litany of “corporate boondoggles” (her words) over the last few years…soon we had 6 er 7 folks waitin’ and participatin’. Someone mentioned corporate lobbyists and another guy mentioned that the head of McCain’s campaign was a big time lobbyist. Then the guy in the line opposite me, well dressed and well fed, began to go off about the criminals in the White House and the takeover of our country after 9/11 and he ended with this: “I’m a military trained pilot who works commercially, nobody better doubt my fuckin’ patriotism.”
So there ya have it…the folks are all out here and they ain’t afraid anymore, Raven, and they’re mad as hell and many of ‘em know that they’ve nuthin’ left ta lose if the fascists win this November. So poke yer head outta that foxhole, brother, and join the rest of us…in the street if necessary.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THEY WON’T GO AWAY WITHOUT A FIGHT!!
Born and raised in Delaware County, Joe Sestak spent 31 years serving our nation in the U.S. Navy, rising to the rank of three-star Admiral.
Joe Sestak brings to Congress the same dedication and commitment with which he served this country in the Navy. As a member of Congress, Joe is working to strengthen our country’s national security – national security that begins at home in the health, education, and economic promise of our people, as well as our defense security. Joe’s primary focus is on fixing problems and moving our country forward – not on governing from the left or on the right.
During his distinguished career in the Navy, Joe led a series of operational commands, culminating in the command of the George Washington aircraft carrier battle group, which consisted of 30 U.S. and allied ships, 15,000 sailors, and close to 100 aircraft. Under Joe’s watch, the George Washington battle group conducted combat operations in Afghanistan and precursor operations to the war in Iraq.
Anglena Jolie for Health, Education, and Welfare.
I have ceased fighting the war in ‘Nam. A long time ago. I have let it go. For my buddies who didn’t make it back, my heart bleeds for you.
Good suggestion.
Dream on. Can visualise Obama as President but not beyond. Don’t think either Bill or Hilary will take a lesser role in the next administration than they have already achieved or aspire to achieve.
I think the Edwards have their own plans and I doubt anyone takes Dodd or Richardson seriously.
But then, I have been known to be wrong. I couldn’t believe idiot GWB was ever elected to two terms. Strange things happen.
“Whirled Peas?”
All we are saying, is give Peas a chance!
And given the current bee crisis in the U.S.,
All we are saying, is give bees a chance!
Bob in HI
Does anyone have a link handy which points out the precise language in the Military Commissions Act where Habeas Corpus took a beating?
Why do these republic bastards contantly pretend to know what we want more than we do.
Get out of Iraq, NOW!!! Aloha, Ya’ll!
Perhaps you are correct. I am just in the midst of a dream. But hey. I can dream, can’t I?
click on my name and read my posting today on Sgt. Keeble. He is our hero in the Dakotas.
I’m right behind ya flamethrower. You know I’m Norske too? Seriously, I’m sure there are plenty of service-members fed up with this bullshit but I am not convinced it’s a large percentage. My story. The young man I have mentioned here. University of Minnesota grad, 11b20, one tour under his belt. he came home feeling there is no way we succeed in Iraq but he also thinks democrats are total idiots. He’s not some hay-shaker, he’s a bright committed young man who sees things through his own lens.
I will never stop hammering Webb when he gets brought up here but I also sent money to him for his figh with numbnuts.
Yes.
That’s fine by me but this dude is what he is and I am not about to forget it.
Scarecrow,
The Public is misled and stupid.
When the U.S. pulled out of Viet Nam, and the North took over, many people in the South, Cambodia, and Laos (the Hmong) got fucked very badly.
I agree, we should pull out of Iraq tomorrow, if not today. Completely.
But let’s be mindful of history.
I saw the story in the news box about the confirmation of Deputy AG Filip:
OK, my question is how stupid is Harry Reid that after more than 7 years of nothing but bad faith from this Administration he thinks that a few vague promises from Josh Bolten who is facing a contempt citation in the House is going to change anything? Again my question: How stupid is Harry Reid?
Can’t say that I disagree with that!
Thx
Yea, and many got fucked over because we were so fucking stupid. Read “Decent Interval”.
My premise is that the public is not stupid, that they understand the perils, but have made up their minds anyway. It’s just a guess, and there’s probably no way to poll for this with any accuracy.
Howsa bout a link or some attribution please.
Yeah, I had a similar conversation in a Doctor’s waiting room a few months ago. Instead of everyone flipping thru magazines and avoiding eye contact, somehow a conversation got started about health care then segued into the War and then the State of this country. There were five of us, all female, all different ages and vastly different in – dress, style, and from that I gather social economic status and education too; but everyone was frothing at the mouth. It was quite remarkable.
With each passing day, I hope… and sometimes realize, I have learned something from my yesterdays and the mistakes I have made. I hope that never stops.
So what did Reid get as a good faith gesture from Bolten?
Sestak
From the MCA:
SEC. 5. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CERTAIN CLAIMS.
(a) In General- No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories.
SEC. 6. IMPLEMENTATION OF TREATY OBLIGATIONS.
(3) INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT-
(A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
(B) The President shall issue interpretations described by subparagraph (A) by Executive Order published in the Federal Register.
(C) Any Executive Order published under this paragraph shall be authoritative (except as to grave breaches of common Article 3) as a matter of United States law, in the same manner as other administrative regulations.
SEC. 7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.’.
Luvya.
I have learned that talk is cheap.
1,775 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Raven:
I respect and admire Senator Webb (has a ring to it, don’t it?) but he must say that, otherwise his entire history and much of his legitimacy as a candidate and now elected official would come apart. We who also served know that it was wrong from the beginnin’ and we would’ve put a cage around China and buried the Soviets if Ike had supported the elections in Vietnam in 1958. But what is important about Webb is that he has a dog in this hunt-his son- and he will never allow the military to be abused and politicized again like it has been these last 8 years.
Jim Webb is a patriot and a politician but, remember he is a man like all of us with feet of clay, give ‘im his rationalizations and his myths jest don’t let ‘im relive ‘em.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND ANYMORE!!!
In 1965 I thought the war in Vietnam was good just. Four years later I did not.
I hear down there in your parts that Jim Martin is considering a serious run at Chambliss’ Senate seat with a decision in the next couple weeks, and although Chambliss has 20 times the money of other candidates, that the polls show him potentially vulnerable. Martin is a clear example of what would be more and better Democrats in Congress.
Yikes.
WebbProbably a decoder ring.
?
And here is something that everyone is on the same page about – the treatment of veterans. Start a conversation anywhere, and this gets everyone going.
Whoa, not you and obviously I need to shut up about Webb.
The public IS stupid.
The only people who even dumbly understand politics are those who hang out at this or similar blogs.
Now that is something I could get interested in.
I couldn’t believe idiot GWB was ever elected to two terms. Strange things happen.
Shrub was selected by the Supreme Clowns, he was never elected. And I for one took Dodd extremely serious he was my first choice, then Edwards.
Thank you very much, Hugh.
Present company excluded, I hope.
The 1600 Crew’s treatment of the Veterans has been appalling, they have been nothing but a Photo-Op for Darth Dick and Preznit Diaper Boy. The love that the VFW and American Legion have shown then has been sickening, even now they still support the “patriotic” republicans who could give a shit about the Vets until a media outlet shows up with cameras and questions.
Ok, so the war we fought that was predicated on a series of lies was honorable but the one his son is fighting that was predicated on a series of lies is not because he has a stake in it?
Well, I sometimes feel that way, but what I really think is they are deliberately misinformed and undereducated. I had an interesting conversation with some friends who aren’t too politically active and they said, people don’t know what’s going on, what can we do? And I said, write a letter to the editor, write a check to a candidate, drive someone to the polls, keep the conversations going, FAN THE FLAMES, because people are pissed.
Same old shit
Agreed. Every word.
I tried starting a conversation in my doctor’s office about healthcare and everyone looked at me like I was crazy! It carried over into the doctor’s office visit and I ended up scoring a month’s supply of my medicine worth $150 from the doctor. At least he got it.
btw, Marcy’s having an anti-Cheney fundraiser, to offset Cheney’s fundraiser for the Rebublican hack in her neighborhood. If you’ve got some extra bucks this month, this is a fun and worthwhile way to spend them.
For the record Raven, I’m not a chickenshit. :>
You are good people. Lahoma and I, like your stuff, my friend. And I understand what you are saying to us about Webb. ;0)
LOL! Well, I’m from Vermont, so we’re a little radical here to begin with.
KO on Hagee-McCain
Edwards was my first choice, but it became apparent very quickly that neither your or my first choice was going to get the nod.
Agree. The supremes had the last laugh on the rest of us when they gave Shrub the nod. Not their finest hour by any stretch of the imagination.
John McCain supports torture by the United States of America.
Thank goodness!
707 ;P
Are we on the same team here? Or not? We will always have things we don’t agree on. But that’s okay. My eyes are on the prize. The White House.
The republic party is the party of torture.
Hey, there was a suggestion Webb should be Secretary of Defense, I disagree. That is all.
And spying on Americans
And pre-emptive war
And Bushco
And Corruption
And 9/11 happened on their watch, despite warnings that they could have followed up on!!!
Raven would not be alone in her disagreement about Webb being Sec. Def.
I wasn’t stupid before I came here, only uneducated…
And, as the suggester, with good reason I might add.
The main thing in this house is to defeat McCain.
Here’s another interesting thing people are starting to say to me: like this: Well, you’re informed, you must be online for your information. Where are you getting your news?
And of course, that’s when I plug FDL. But, see what I mean?
1,775 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Raven:
No, brother Raven, the war in Vietnam was NOT honorable…though service in it was. And the experience of that service and the acceptance of the real meaning or lack of meaning of the experience comes slowly to most…and many, like Jim Webb need myths and rationalizations to justify their actions. So give ‘im his fantasies as long as he takes advantage of his opportunities to make sure the same shit doesn’t happen again.
We’re all comin’ down different roads but we’re beginnin’ ta see the same light at the end of ‘em.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LEAN ON ME BROTHER SO WE DON’T FALL DOWN!!
I thought I was a little smart, until Charlotte Allen pointed out that because I’m genetically gender-handicapped, I’m really very stupid. Do you think I should wear black jeans or blue ones??? Priorities you know…problems, problems…
Brother Raven:
You are right about Webb…don’t put ‘im in the cabinet.
The cynic in me sees it this way. I always thought – hit em in the pocketbook and Americans will finally wake up.
Good job, chimpy.
Dr. McCain pulls a Bill Frist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03…..ref=slogin
Decisions, decisions…;-)
Least of our problems right now!
I vote Dosido’s comment, “Does this blog make me look fat?” as the best comment on this thread.
I award Dosido the Charlotte Allen award!!
Commemorative Award.
About Joe Sestak, I was at one of RevDeb’s services recently, and he was there. He spoke about this, and other issues too.
Congressman Sestak hosts 7th Congressional District Religious/Community Anti-Violence Summit
After hearing him speak, and telling him to end the war, and his response, which was that we may differ on how to do that, but we have the same goal, I have to say he’s a good guy.
Bob, I received this letter from Inouye, today…
If they had acted in good faith and legally, why would they need Immunity? WTF???
McCain/Hagee story coming up on Countdown, along with latest versions of the 3:00 a.m. video, this year’s must see ad.
When I see comments like that from our Dems, all i can think of is that little stick figure guy banking his head on the keyboard.
Does anyone else hate Comcast as much as I do? Their commercials are insipid, stupid, insulting, mindless, pointless . . . never mind. I’ll be okay in a minute or so.
Maybe they did, but the Administration is who really needs the immunity, they clearly did not act in good faith…it’s about saving Bushco’s sorry collective *sses.
Part of breaking America.
Looks like McCain hasn’t been reading the latest research on the vaccines, huh? He’s waaaay behind the news on this issue.
Come to think of it, he is always a day late and a dollar short on most issues.
My wife watched me turn red with rage as I read it, she’s been trying to calm me down ever since…! 8-(
My local paper has run three op-eds over the past week saying “OMG!!1!!##!! If the US leaves Iraq, al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) will TAKE OVER!!!###!!!!11#”
This obviously idiocy, as Iraqis don’t really like AQI and as AQIs reason for being will dry up and disappear once the US packs up and leaves. For some reason, these guys can’t seem to get that.
Hey, what’s the link on that? a friend showed it to me on his iPod, and at first I thought it was disgusting– but it kinda sticks with you, dooesn’t it?
Bob in HI
To Bob in HI, No. 24: If you can find a major speech that Donald Rumsfeld gave on 10 September 2001, attacking the U.S. military, it may help to answer your question about this administration’s intentions as to our military. Of course, Rumsfeld was then Secretary of Defense. Interesting timing, too.