It was disconcerting, to say the least, to hear Sylvestre Reyes on CNN this morning talking about retroactive telecom immunity:
Reyes, D-Texas, said he was open to that possibility after receiving documents from the Bush administration and speaking to the companies about the industry’s role in the government spy program.
"We are talking to the representatives from the communications companies because if we’re going to give them blanket immunity, we want to know and we want to understand what it is that we’re giving immunity for," he said. "I have an open mind about that."
Regarding a compromise deal, Reyes said: "We think we’re very close, probably within the next week we’ll be able to hopefully bring it to a vote."
I hope before the Democrats decide to cave on this they think very carefully about the message they’re sending in the wake of huge ad buys against their freshmen by a GOP attack outfit. Jim Klobuchar writes about the ads taken out in Minnesota against Tim Walz (and Walz’s admirable response):
His supporters are responding with their dollars. But the question he raises hangs, ominous and taunting, over the 2008 elections.
How much have the voters actually learned from the corruptions of decency and truth that emasculated John Kerry’s campaign in 2004?
One thing we probably haven’t learned is how easily it was done. The architects of it were shadowy surrogates of the real political hatchetmen and corporate pirates who brought the Bush government to power. In the middle of it some credulous Democrats actually asked George Bush to disavow the Swift Boat fraud.
Were they serious?
If House Democrats back down now, it worked. And it will keep happening, again and again and again.
Related posts:
- Donna Edwards (and others) could learn a thing or two from Jerry Nadler
- Southerners love TRICARE, The Public, Single-Payer Health Plan for Military Families
- Late Night: I Love Everything about America, Except for Charles Krauthammer, Who Is Kind of a Dick
- The White House, The Gays, and Lessons to Learn
- Democrats “Win” 2008 So Republican Can Write Health Care Bill
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Fitz!
So frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrr. They must be truly stupid or blackmailed. I just don’t get it!!
They’re selling us out!
To quote a “Jane-ism”…”just shoot me”
I hope they think very carefully about Al Wynn.
I guess the Dems are sick of their jobs and want to be replaced. Boneheads.
guess that spine is weakening
THis is why it’s so VERY important to mount as many alternatives to incumbent blue dogs like Feinstein and Tauscher. They NEED to be removed from office.
i can’t for the life of me see any reason for the house to bring up fisa legislation again. they passed a bill. the senate passed a bill. reid called for a conference committee. mcconnell blocked it.
let the republicans own the fact that they are obstructing the legislation.
Not to mention ..well OK let’s mention it.. The illegal Executive Branch!
I don’t get it either. Have they been blackmailed from these illegal wiretaps without a warrant the Bush Regime has used since February 2001? I’m starting to think so.
The Dem leadersheep want to split the FISA bill into a two bills with Immunity as a stand alone bill, ‘to provide political cover for the Dems that object…’ 8-(
I live in Cali and i’m all about getting rid of Feinstein.
there is another interpretation – that there never was any spine, maybe it was all an elaborate game to convince us they were “fighting” when all along they were planning to cave.
Or maybe….is it possible Reyes is just talking out of his butt, meaning, he wants his constituents who support him that George will get his way, even though he knows he probably won’t? Not sure. Could be, but then again, the republicans keep changing their spots, so it’s difficult to read them most days.
Just a quick thanks for the onion bread/cracker recipe. I did find it the following morning.
Well, now, am I mistaken or did Wilkes (MSM) get the contract to install stuff in the Congressional buildings….I’m sure I didn’t dream that…they had some kind of contract….I guarantee you they (someone) knows everything…remember, Martin Luther King was spied on by Hoover in his bedroom….these people are even worse.
i am so tired of them selling us out and being able to only count on a few select dems.
Something is going on and I’m pretty sure the Democrats haven’t been guaranteed 72 Virgins after their deaths for them to keep doing the wrong thing. ;-)
As a part of my raw lifestyle, I focus on the positive hence my belief that there was a spine. The alternative you provide, while true, messes with my chakras too much *g*
Don’t count on a Dem congress after November. I predict that (maybe) a Dem POTUS might exist, but without the support of a Dem congress because of the miserable job they have done this past year.
Vote Every Bum Out! VEBO!!!!
Absolute F*ckery…
Thanks for the link to the Jim Klobuchar article. He and the Twin Cities Daily Planet are good example of what seems to be a trend here in Minnesota, writers who lost their jobs at the Minneapolis Star-Tribune or St Paul Pioneer Press are turning up online. The other one I’ve started reading regularly is MinnPost.com.
So I was wondering, is this going on in other cities? Are local journalists who were fired when the main paper cuts back on writers turning to the internet to do their own reporting? At least from here, it looks like a good thing. The online papers are more than a match for the Minneapolis or St Paul paper in their coverage of local events.
Maybe not after their deaths…maybe now…*g*
the manipulation of the process was so blatant in august, that they had to do their cave while most of the bloggers were at yearly kos.
since then the kabuki has gotten much better – but it’s still kabuki.
their goal is to produce better kabuki – so that we will be fooled.
our goal must be to see through their bs. if we do, then they will learn that the only way to please us is with legislation. if we fall for their fake theatrics, they will learn that is all it takes to placate us.
we are going to have to be observant as hell.
Thus so far, my congresswoman has been awesome, no complaints here and the same goes for ONE of my senators.
Good gawd, you’re probably right! Eeek.
Where is that Larry Flynt stuff anyway…
Maybe the Admin has “carnal knowledge”….
Amen, M’dear! An easy fix is to not pass anything…! Punt it to the next congress/administration…! *g*
when it comes to actual legislation, reyes and conyers have not been the good guys on this. do NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. they have earned our skepticism.
sorry, wobblybits.
I just can’t imagine that 9/11 forced the Democrats to suddenly hate the rule of law. Something else is going on behind the scenes and I have a feeling it won’t be divulged until Dick Cheney and George Bush are on their death beds.
Reyes, Reyes’ brother — Rodriguez, destroyed CIA tapes….
did one of your senators object to the senate’s UC on Jan 31?
….Mukasey….threats of prosecution or something…
Here’s Pelosi’s take…
that doesn’t explain what the dems did in 1996.
maybe they just don’t give a shit (not all of them, just most).
No need to apologize. I have set a goal to release my chakras (all 7) and one has to be careful of negative thoughts (in my case not to internalize them)
Like I said, your explanation may very well be the true story.
Disconcerting also, Jane, to see the way Hillary Clinton responds to Steve Kroft’s questioning tonight on 60 Minutes regarding whether she believes Obama when he says he is not and never has been a Muslim.
My B.S. detector says the Clinton campaign is behind the email smear of Obama’s religion. (For now. Can’t speak for the general election of course.)
And Hillary’s deniability is implausible.
this year has taught me to despise reid and pelosi.
Shit 60 minutes displaying the anti-”demonstrator” personal weapon….look out…
UC?
i would love to have another explanation that fits the evidence. but i haven’t been able to find one.
… and my commitment is to the true, as best as i am able.
So Pelosi’s saying they will cave as usual, oh, but they’ll talk about it after.
More B.S. More implausible deniability of what politicians are doing.
Is there some kind of epidemic going around The Village, or what?
sorry, unanimous consent agreement. in this case the one on jan 31 which was when all the senators caved on fisa (including, sad to say dodd)
The temporary halt on the FISA bill was to make
sure Pelosi comes out of the March 4th primary in her district
not any less weakened… I was never fooled by their so-called tough stance against granting immunity to the telecoms…leopards never changed their spots…
Shit…they are showing the weapon being used against “demonstrators” carrying signs saying “world peace” and “love for all”….
Mofos!!!!!!!!!!!
It is a painful beam. I’m already totally pissed, now I’m doubly totally pissed!!!
I agree, sorry that wasn’t Pelosi, but, you get the gist… Here’s the Repug response from yesterday’s LA Times story…
I watched Reyes this morning, and it made me sick. Then when Wolf got Blount on later, he misrepresented what Reyes said, and it made me sicker. The MSM does not have a clue on this telecom immunity, therefore the public has no idea what is at stake.
The NY Times had a good article on immunity today,(sorry no link), but they’re the only ones that I’ve noticed that describe it accurately.
Protesters are going to need metal shields to speak out against the war…unbelievable.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Feinstein did I don’t know if Boxer voted for it or not
I think ex-Congressman Ney was involved in a shady contract to a Israeli Co to upgrade the House com.
I’m sorry, I’m sorry….I’ll stop talking about the friggin’ anti-personnel raygun being demonstrated on 60 minutes that they are going to use against anyone they want to make STFU!
Maybe they’ll use it against anyone who votes against immunity.
We are in an authoritarian dictatorship.
Amdocs?
there wasn’t a vote. there was just a proposed agreement. no one objected. that’s why none of them are guiltless.
no need to stop. it has me worried too.
I’m outraged and screaming!! Can you hear me from Texas!!! Ahhhhhhhgggggg!!!
Selise, thanks so much for the link. It’s very disappointing about what the Democrats were doing back in the 1990’s, but they did have good company on the republic side too. What I don’t understand, if all of this is perfectly legal, then why is Bush freaking about the telecom companies then? To me it makes sense that there were still safeguards in place (no matter what the Democrats did during the 1990’s) and Georgie is not abiding by them. Of course, it’s the warrant-issue that is the problem. I don’t think the Democrats in the 1990’s wanted Clinton illegally wiretapping citizens without a warrant. Right?
gotcha
If the House Democrats back down now, how long will it be (or should it be) before we ask “Does this government represent us, We the People, or does it represent the very thing that the Founders warned us against? An imperial, unresponsive and dictatorial ruling class driven which deserving of removal from power, by any means prescribed by the Constition and precedents of the Founding Fathers.
Is there any doubt that we are approaching a time where we don’t matter any more? We send so-called “representatives” like Silvestre Reyes to Congress and he (and many many more, starting with Nancy Pelosi) sell us down the river for 30 pieces of silver and tickets to the Nationals games.
Sick, it makes me.
well, tomorrow morning i’m going to make some phone calls. first up on my list are pelosi, reyes and conyers to tell their office staff that they aren’t fooling us with their bs kabuki. if they want to stop immunity, they can.
next up i’m gonna call holt’s office (one of the good guys on this) to ask if he’s planning to work with the progressive caucus to block immunity.
Rashes and blisters…okay on any part of the body…oh great…Fuck you W.
Good idea. Bastids!!
What is wrong with these people!!!????
Go Cindy Sheehan!!!
This is our country…it feels like another planet these days.
That is the heart of the problem, why do they need Immunity if they’d done nothing illegal…? WTF?
I, for one am weary of the tired canard that our ‘Senators’ and ‘Congresspersons’ are being ‘BLACKMAILED’.
Clearly, ‘they’ do not see things the ‘way’ ‘we’ do.
For those who think otherwise, might I ask you this? Were someone close to you betraying you on a regular basis, would you continue to believe in them? How long a time would suffice before you would have had enough? In abusive relationships, it is the co-dependency which perpetuates the downward spiral of destruction and abuse.
Since ‘everybody’ is being blackmailed, may we expect that any will admit to it once Bush $ Company finally leave?
If they would be ‘ashamed’ to admit to any such thing then why should they tolerate it now? Unless we are to believe Bush $ Co. so powerful as to frighten each and every single member of Congress sufficiently to obtain their silence for life, in which case why think that he would ever leave,
what are we to think?
If these members of Congress are so timid as we would have to think them to be to warrant our sad fairy-tale of woeful coercion, then of course they will capitualate and thereby, frankly, aren’t worth a damn to the rest of us.
In a way it is rather touching to believe that ‘our’ Senators and Congresspersons would do the ‘right’ thing if only they weren’t so frightened for themselves, their families and their nation.
I simply don’t need to ‘go there’ to determine that ‘other’ considerations inflate their sails and sustain their dreams (of glory or power or of being ‘loved’ by everybody).
Simply put: their ‘interests’ are NOT our interests. Period.
Their lot is not with the ‘people’ or with the Constitution. Their ‘lot’ lies elsewhere, with the money and the power.
in the ’90s the Rs actually got the Ds to water down (and improve) the bad laws the Ds wanted to do.
the fact that the Ds are now, apparently successfully, portraying themselves as defenders of civil rights just goes to show how successful the Ds can be with the propaganda – when they want to be.
They want to “hurt” us. Hellllooooo!!!!
Or, just so he can find out what the telecoms have? And then the dems will vote against immunity? Dream?
The fix was in when Reyes was made chair of the Intelligence Committee instead of Rush Holt.
for anyone who’s forgotten how the Ds fucked us over on fisa (and then lied about it) in august last year, read marcy’s post “The Democratic Cave“
oops… so pissed was I that I neglected to edit. “…driven which deserving of removal from power…”
should be “driven by avarice and are deserving of removal from power…”
post editing was a nice feature … hint hint…LOL…
They’re trying to help you. They don’t want to have to shoot you.
:-)
that sure should have been a clue how seriously the house dems take intelligence. sadly, at that time i didn’t know either reyes or holt.
like i said, the past year has taught me a lot – and they’ve painful lessons in misplaced trust.
I’m hoping what Flynt has is on McCain, and that he’s saving it for late October. The NYT piece fed my theory…
You’d think George Bush would be saying, “Hey! The Democrats back in the 1990’s are the ones that gave me and all future presidents the go ahead!”, but he’s not. He’s a criminal.
Is it possible that we, who are members of the Democratic Party and who are not in government, are actually the ones who care about civil liberties? And once one gets into government, they lose it? LOL I’m starting to think so!
You might be right, because he said that he has the dirt on a Senator and that everyone would be surprised. Certainly not HRC.
Now, how not to turn “painful lessons in misplaced trust” into cynicism. It’s hard to look back at our delirium at our wins in ‘06 and our continuing deflation at the hands of our leaders and not be depressed and discouraged. I, for one, believe it’s blackmail, if not of our leaders themselves, then of their families.
The ol’ blonde lobbyist scandal! The corporate media would be unable to resist reporting it, even though it involves their precious St. John.
Now, can we have someone ask Obama and Clinton whether or not all the classified bullshit will stand (how much spying actually occured?, what was Dick Cheney’s energy task force really all about?) because if it doesn’t, then republicans will never win another national election.
Or Obama. :-)
Wilkes did a remodel/office furniture in Cheney’s office. Yeah.
Wahhhhh…I’m having a tantrum…wahhhh…Reyes, damn you!!!
It’s raining….so, I’m going to calm down…but don’t you f’ing dare threaten and plan shoot me in the butt with your damn anti-demonstrator raygun for using speaking my mind about your illegal war and your disgusting policies…that just ain’t right. Right? Thanks a lot, Raytheon. Bastids.
i was happy but not delirious. i can remember sitting at over breakfast in CT (since a bunch of us had gone there for Lamont’s campaign) saying that given our history of disappointment with the Ds, maybe we should wait an see how pelosi does before saying what a wonderful speaker she is. boy, did pounded into little bits.
got any evidence (or argument) to support that belief?
I know, but he’s not as stupid as McVain. He would never go out there and campaign and risk such a thing. Doesn’t make sense.
Wilkes probably set the charges for the fire that broke out next to Cheney’s office…! ;-)
shit. is it raytheon? my cousin works for them.
And the worst part? The biggest attack on our nation happened under a republican president, so the conclusion the Democrats keep telling themselves that they’re weak on terror…is bullshit.
Do we have to be their mothers by telling them that it was Georgie who was weak on terror and that’s why 9/11 occurred? *smacking forehead* I think we’re going to have to. *putting my boots on*
Yes it is Raytheon.
yep. i like your “git it done” attitude!
Bin Laden waited for a Republican Congress and a Repyblican President to launch the worst attacks on the US.
-G
I don’t get 60 Minutes for another 2 hours. I’m already so pissed. How about signs that read SHOOT ME IF YOU HATE THE CONSTITUTION.
Heh, they’re the father of the Patriot/Aegis missile systems…! I worked alongside many Raytheon personnel while stationed with a Patriot Battalion…!
I’m with you. I’ll be making calls as well. *sigh* But this is what we are supposed to be doing, holding our elected officials accountable.
My evidence is that Bush/Cheney have been spying on us with the help of the telecoms since before 9/ll. And by us I include congress. It is pretty hard with this absolutely law breaking and secretive administration to give any conclusive evidence. I do know that if they wanted they could check out any of my library records, search my house, and take me away without any evidence whatsoever. But, then, we’re the good guys and we require evidence before we jump to conclusions. Let’s just say that blackmail is the only thing that makes sense to me. I don’t believe that everyone in congress is on the take, the other conclusion that I could draw from their mind boggling capitulations.
Why thank you. ;-) I think we should down the phone system tomorrow. LOL
John – Dem
Robert – Dem
MLK – Dem
Wellstone ?? – Dem
JFK Jr. ?? – Dem
Anthrax:
Leahy – Dem
Daschle – Dem
McKulski (sp) Dem
Who are the Puke counterparts?
Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Georgie, Dickie…to name a few. I still think the handwriting of the Anthrax guy should be compared to the handwriting of the guy caught with ricin in a hotel in Las Vegas…just for shits and giggles of course. ;-)
Wait till you see it, you will be fit to be tied!!! At least I am…*g*
I mean…not…around…ahem…dayed.
Hear, here!
They don’t recognize no stinkin’ evidence….obviously.
You’ve been into the sauce today, haven’t you? LOL! Is “dayed” in place of “dead”? Believe me, I have a Maine accent and I sound like I’m drinking the sauce most days. ;-)
I’m expecting black helicopters momentarily…*g*
And isn’t Raytheon the outfit that got the big contract for uparmor of vehicles even though it was inferior?
Must have been something else, but there is this:
It was disconcerting, to say the least, to hear Sylvestre Reyes on CNN this morning talking about retroactive telecom immunity
I was watching when he said that too. It amazes me that the dems completely disregard what the wishes of the people who sent them to Washington are. I am sick of taxation with NO representation. We might as well be ruled by the King of England. It’s not like we have anymore say.
Yup, on the second part…dayed..is…well, dayed as a door nayel…
or maybe most of the Ds just agree with most of the Rs? would that not be more consistent with the evidence?
i think laura rozen, bmaz and kevin drum are most likely right.
and here’s the thing…. if it’s blackmail, there’s not much i can think of to do. but if i’m right, then there is something important we can do – and that’s not let the Ds get away with their attempts to fool us.
so, i’m gonna make the argument that unless you are sure it’s blackmail, it makes sense to act on the other possibilities.
dipthong.
when i’ve protested outside of one of ratheon’s big plants (for hiroshima day), i wondered if my cousin would drive by and recognize me. but turns out he was at another plant.
Selise, personally I think the Bush Regime has something on every key member of Congress. Their cute little program to spy started in February 2001, so they were already thinking this way. Ashcroft in the early summer that year stopped flying commercially and refused to tell the media why when asked. He knew commercial airliners were going to be used against us. They all knew as far as I’m concerned.
Your comment about the D’s agreeing with the R’s is a good observation, but to me, it makes me realize how much I detest the middle-of-the-roaders, because they just go along with the group, because they don’t have the balls to question or go against. Scary and I believe that’s another reason why the last eight years have been a head scratcher.
Now they want to shoot you in the butt!! *g*
bmaz about the Democratic cave on Marcy’s “Mukasey wasn’t bluffing” thread. “Indemification” refers to the telco’s:
amen!
let’s have some fun.
in case anyone’s forgotten. here are the vCards to make it easy:
house and for future use: senate
We have to keep fighting, obviously, but we progressives still don’t have much influence in the party. The most progressive Presidential candidates are now gone, we have to scream just to be barely heard by our own leaders, and they keep voting against us. This will be a long fight.
I can’t for the life of me see why telcoms which broke the law should not be held accountable?
If they are guilty of wrong doing, what will happen? They won’t/can’t go to jail. Or are there specific individuals who would be held accountable? Are these the people at the top or the ones who rigged the wire taps or both?
Is it simply civil actions that they would lose?
I simply don’t get it. Obviously they won’t do it again… or will they?
What exactly is going on with this immunity deal?
i’m not arguing against the possibility of a few well placed blackmail type threats – i just think it’s probably not necessary in most cases.
ding! ding! ding!
i think bmaz is 100% correct.
Well carmen, if what you suggest is ‘true’ then it is not Hitler’s Germany we’ve awakened in, but rather Augustus’ Rome and the Republic is finished.
Finished, not just for the short term of a decade or two, but, effectively, forever.
Now, we could well be ‘finished’ regardless, but you don’t make the situation any more tolerable by suggesting that cowards are ‘better’ than whores, because they have somehow behaved more ‘honorably’.
Again, I ask. If what you say is ‘true’ why should the uber-thugs EVER leave?
If they leave, how may they ensure the continued cooperation of their nominal victims, for ultimately, in such a scenario, Senators and Congresspersons are small fish indeed.
Would ‘world-class’ criminals leave so many witnesses behind?
I, for one, believe it’s blackmail, if not of our leaders themselves, then of their families.
got any evidence (or argument) to support that belief?
What other possible explantion is there? Nothing else makes any sense. It’s not one capitulation one time. It’s trashing the Constitution, elimination of our civil liberties, bankrupting the treasury, endless war. What else could it possibly be.
Why would the taxpayers pay for the the telcoms wrong doing?
Why don’t the telcoms pay for it?
What other possible explantion is there? Nothing else makes any sense.
I believe the majority of them actually disagree with us. The conservative mindset has poisoned our party in addition to the country.
agreement in principle?
Good gawd, you are so organized! Wow. I was going to make some calls using my old cordless phone with the weird looking antenna. My emails aren’t much fancier…Google Mail. ;-)
because bushco promised them indemnity for their cooperation?
There is something very strange about this retro immunity, because we don’t know exactly what they did that they need immunity for and why is Bush fighting so hard for it?
Nonsense. He could not have made such a promise.
i did them last fall in preparation for the fisa fight – and i didn’t do them just for me to use.
please take them. use them. let them help you make more phone calls and send more emails.
why not?
It is creepy, isn’t it? They’ve (Bush and the telecoms) have done something unbelievably bad. We’ll probably found out that the server that is recording every phone call is in Dubai, you know, the country where the terrorists are and where they funnel their money through. Who knows, but it is frightening how the Bush Regime has reared up like a spider over this.
I am going to guess that these telcoms have been doing this for AGES and it is not related to the 911. This could open up a huge can of worms.
I’ll bet FISA is just a kabuki to make it seem like there are some legal protections in our lovely police state.
Interesting…it is the consistancy with which they capitulate that is most worrisome. Not a one-shot deal, it is constant…they rebel and then they give. That isn’t normal. It is not statistically sound..something is up. But what??? Why??? They have the whole country behind them, but they give…every single time…doesn’t add up.
I’m really impressed, Selise. A rinky-dink operation on my end. LOL
Because no corporations is going to just accept some DOJ lawyer or even the POTUS as a legal authority to “break the law”. They are too smart to do that.
BBL dinner.
kay – i’m typing on a 6 year old imac here.
Kill the civil law suits and then the felonies committed by the Bush Admin. will never become public.
If what you suggest (as did carmen) is true, then there is no point in wasting any more effort trying to change the minds of our Senators and Congresspersons, because we have no arguments to counter the degree of fear you are suggesting is at play. Neither is it likely that we shall ever know the truth, given such a seamless and total success as you have ascribed to Bush $ Company.
Why would Bush $ Company risk leaving? They can find no ’safer’ place than where they are, right now. What do you think?
bmaz’s theory seems plausible – *unless*… the spying started before 9-11, as seems to be the evidence. Because *before* 9-11, there would be no reason on God’s green earth for any such deal to have been made.
they’re too smart not to (see quest).
Agreed. There has to be something.
He spied on Americans (but we don’t know who) illegally, got caught by reporters, admitted it, and then pressured Congress to make legal that which was illegal.
I robbed a bank, I got caught by witnesses, and then I pressured the Law to make my robbery legal. How would I do that?
I think the congressmen and senators simply do not want to believe the evidence.
They aren’t risking death, they’re risking public shunning if they believe (and act) as if their eyes are not lying.
I robbed a bank, I got caught by witnesses, and then I pressured the Law to make my robbery legal. How would I do that?
Well, first, ya gotta get yourself made president of the U.S.A…
(”It’s good to be the king!”)
why not? did you ever think that maybe it actually started before jan, 2001?
not saying it did…. but we know now that the extraordinary rendition started (where people were kidnapped and brought to egypt to be tortured and/or killed) started at least as early as the clinton administration (we know they did it).
why not spying too?
why don’t these questions get asked about the dems?
did you notice how the MCA effectively gave immunity for acts of torture starting in 1997?
Go next door to the last 20 or so comments at Emptywheel. Also check out this.
That is another theory. Any legal judgement against the Telcoms related to wiretaps for the Govt would probably be covered by the Govt. What they are afraid is having all of the datamining that they do for sales and marketing exposed.
I was going to rob a bank, so I got damaging info on the bank execs via spying prior to the robbery…on 9/11 I committed the first of several crimes…I was able to keep the bank execs quiet, because I had intell…I robbed more banks at will for years..keeping them all quiet, because I had intell about all of their activities…I will never be caught, because I have the intell. I own the bank.
I did a post a year or so ago on my other White Noise Insanity blog (it got hacked and eaten by the trolls…all posts were eaten) about the “Largest Database in the History of America”, which is Echelon created in 1998 under Clinton Admin. Oh boy.
Let’s skip the pond scum and go to the top:
Miss Nancy must go!
LOL You’re still hi-tech I’m afraid. ;-)
Was it along the Miracle Mile in Massachusetts…? ;-)
I’ve made hundreds of calls. I am a member of the Dem Central Committee. I have protested with my fellows. I’m not just an observer.
The idea of Bushco not leaving crosses my mind daily. Why would they go to the great lengths they’ve gone to grab power and place their cronies in every nook and cranny of the government. Even though I think about this daily, I can’t give up. I have children. I have to fight like hell for them if nothing else.
in MA, but i don’t know what is “miracle mile”
i should use the google?
Here’s what was said about ECHELON, the largest phone database in the world…in 2000 way before the madness we’re witnessing today:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..4651.shtml
It was created in 1998 and it was top secret.
What about that former AT&T employee on Keith who said he set up the Big Brother room in San Francisco??
Back…
We need to know what we are giving immunity for. We can’t just give a blanket immunity. That is pure insanity.
I think something larger is being hidden.
why not? did you ever think that maybe it actually started before jan, 2001?
frankly, no – I hadn’t. good point.
But didn’t the guy from AT&T say he witnessed the materials going into that room (in S.F.?) *after* jan, 2001, but *before* 9-11?
If I’m misremembering, please correct me.
In case anyone is paying attention, the Jim Klobuchar mentioned in Jane’s post is the father of Minnesota State Senator Amy Klobuchar.
And Democrat Amy Klobuchar voted FOR the FISA Amendment last August! So maybe she AND her father need to hear from concerned Minnesotans…
please note – from the weekly leader, the house is back in session on tuesday. and fisa is listed as a possibility for action on wednesday.
that means we need to be calling tomorrow – because the decisions are made before it comes to the floor.
Didya ever think about what the commercial value of every ATM, online purchase in the Western United States might be worth? Every financial transaction? Every loan, default…extension….
Marketers would kill their first born for the data the ‘NSA’ has supposedly been suckin’ up for the last six years.
Kay I think you are on to what this is about.
Our communications have been tapped for ages and the warrants and the FISA stuff is just window dressing.
That’s the deal here. This shit has been going on for a long time and it’s wider and deeper than they are talking about. They cast a very broad net and who knows where that data is now.
You missed my 145.
LOL is right. then i’m about as low tech hi tech as you can get. *g*
I think we will know the truth at some date. And I don’t think that because congress people may be being blackmailed that there is nothing that we can do. Whatever “shit” may be being held over someone’s head, many people could relate to having done the same thing. What if, they had the courage to stand up and say I’ve sinned a la Obama regarding drugs and stand in the light and say “that doesn’t mean these guys can trash the constitution and my rights and yours”?
Robert(?) Klein, IIRC.
I believe it’s Rte 220 just outside of Boston, a specific mile or so, IIRC it was centered in Framingham… It’s been a long while ago, so I’m not positive… ;-)
fine. so long as you call, i won’t give you a hard time.
Is it possible at all.. to give telcos immunity but not Government officials who ordered such illegal activity?
At what point do we form a third party?
I don’t believe that they gave have indemnity for such things. That’s rubbish.
except for the practicality of how to you find out what happened if you can’t sue the telcos?
Puppeteers pulling the strings.
This is Punch and Judy.
This is really a good source. Read the comments too.
If they have these agreements we need to see them and who wrote them and who signed them.
Who would sign them for the USA?
why don’t you believe that?
The thing is…we can’t trust the US government or any other government to interpret our phone calls. I always use the example of one of saying, “Honey, can you pick up the yellow cake I ordered for the wedding on Saturday”, because “yellow cake” could be interpreted as “yellowcake uranium” and “wedding” could be intepreted as a hit, kind of like the Mafia would use.
Maybe our government has been rendering Americans and for all we know the missing people in our towns have not been kidnapped & murdered, but taken by our government because the Dumbasses were paranoid? Oh gawd. I think I’m going to hurl…
This is not about paying a bunch of lawsuits. It is something else.
AGAG
Roll over Liberty
Bush. Why do you think he is fighting this so hard. He doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself. Bye bye Berto. Bye bye Rover. It’s all about W.
I’ve already started calling/emailing my two critters, and, I’ll try Pelosi’s, Reyes’, etc… Tomorrow…! 8-)
Was that the same Silvestre Reyes that recently sent a letter to Chimpy stating, “I, for one, do not intend to back down …”? Maybe it was another Silvestre Reyes.
I don’t believe it because I don’t think they can provide an indemnity agreement to cover lawsuits from criminal conduct.
I’m watching Aliens, it’s like watching Congress….asleep forever, and then they discover the alien is still onboard…
Boneheads.
Provide immunity in such a manner which does not allow for full disclosure. Also I would clarify my accountability preference to all government employees who knew about illegal activity without reporting it. Perhaps failed telco lawyers should be disbarred as well (if they advised in favor of illegal activity).
At what point do we form a third party?
IMHO, never. I believe a much better strategy is to reform the Democratic party from within. With more Feingolds, Donna Edwardses and Al Frankens.
that’s worked out so well for the nation in the past Chairman, really. So what if all the ‘documents’ are in wingdings™, they came from the WH, everything’s jake
I would like to hear from a lawyer about such agreements
They’ve got shit on Reyes.
why not? gov officials have it. why not their contractors? do you have anything in law or history to back you up?
It’s not blackmail.
It’s something more important they are they hiding.
SanderO, read bmaz here.
i wish you were in charge.
They can call what they’re doing whatever Selise, but they are having a conference committee in essence. It is functioning like a conference commitee. It’s secret. You don’t know the details of any negotiations or who is negotiating and they will announce and vote on a final product.
You can sue the government.
We have to stand strong. Dems sink or swim. We want honesty, justice, and abidance to our Constitution.
Dodd?
LMAO!
reyes is the idiot who didn’t know if AQ was sunni or shi’a when he was made chair of the intelligence committee.
dodd didn’t filibuster.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this example.
Not that Black Helicopters will land on your lawn in an instant and whisk you away to Gitmo.
(Though that could be the extreme possibility)
But that you end up on a watch list
And everyone you call is watched
And your third cousin, the election judge in Ohio, who fooled around with the babysitter gets blackmailed.
Lots of data piling up for misuse by people who have not proved trustworthy or even effective at the jobs they are supposed to be doing.
And
real intelligence operatives are innundated with tons of poor quality data which distracts from the real problems they are supposed to be detecting.
With all due respect that analysis is off.
There is no evidence of immunity agreements and they would not hold up in court.
I have children as well, and likewise shall put my life and fortune on the line to protect their lives and their futures. I expect nothing less from my Senators and Congresspersons. But you cannot have it both ways. As you appear to be a comparative ‘insider,’ do you actually mean to suggest that having the suspicions which you have aired here, that you still think you have ANY ‘effective’ arguments to present to the ‘blackmailed’ sufficient to allow or encourage them to change their minds? Until THEY say’ “We have been and are being blackmailed and need YOUR help to save this nation.” I cannot in good conscience accept the notion that mere fear (or even unbearable fright) has paralyzed their courage and compromised their integrity. How will YOU perasuade them? Will you say.
“We know you are being blackmailed and we have your backs.” Or must such a word (BLACKMAIL)never be uttered aloud to these stalwart souls? I guess they are being very brave and carry the burden alone, telling no one, not even their families, unless of course, the families are bounded by fear as well. If so we are witness to the most astonding acting I have ever seen.
The Bard died too soon for the stage now set…
One prob, tho… The bar is set extremely high for misconduct by govt. officials, let alone, for criminal behavior… Or malice…! 8-(
Lookie, SanderO. William Barr is chief counsel for Verizon. He is a former Attorney General. He knows his shit. And according to bmaz, what happened before 9/11 doesn’t matter because of the statute of limitations.
which court would that be? the not-roberts court?
I find it highly ironic and typical that the US Attorney in LA is gearing up for a trial in the Tony Pellicano case involving wiretaps to try to gain an advantage in divorce cases, but in the largest wiretapping case in the history of the US that involves DOJ, the Attorney General is standing in the way of finding out anything about the illegal wiretapping and lying that has been going on since 2000 well before 911.
What makes this more egregious is that the legal staffs for the Telcos are substantially comprised of former DOJ attorneys who essentially helped write some of the legislation that became the wiretapping code.
Hollywood Wiretapping Case Begins Tomorrow
Our data is probably in the hands of the terrorists or some rogue nation and the Congress Critters know this and want to hide that fact. We can’t trust them anymore with our information. As we have read over the past few years, government agencies will report that their computers were stolen or the hard drives were taken and nothing comes of it. Someone is being paid to take our info and the only people who would benefit from our info being taken is those outside our country who hate our guts.
Then go freaking read my links. bmaz is a hot attorney.
It would be great to replace Reid with Dodd as our Senate leader. I’d support a letter writing campaign or somesuch. At the same time, I think we need to be realistic about our influence. We just don’t seem to have much.
I don’t think real change is going to happen until we replace a lot of bad Dems. Part of that is educating Democratic voters about who to vote for.
It would be great to have a presidential candidate who explicitly trashes the conservative ideology and movement. We don’t have one of those this year.
I’m “out there” tonight…after imagining getting shot in my butt…I draw the line there!! Dagnabit! You don’t threaten to shoot me in my butt without repercussions with a friggin’ Raytheon raygun!!!! With a raygun, no less. Dayem. I think the protesters should bring a giant mirror…back at y’all!! F them. Don’t develop weapons to “hurt” us. We are your bosses, assh*les!!
I fire you all, and I pluck my nose in their general direction!! Fechez La Vache!!
It’s not blackmail.
What I suspect is happening is that the US government has been spying on us for a very long time. This is not just a terra thing for AQ, but we have been heavily spied on for decades. Something like that.
You would think that with all those taps they could go back and figure out what happened on 911. Right?
You don’t sue in the US Supreme court.
I skimmed it. I don’t buy it. Who is bmaz?
At that ‘date’ we may applaud their new-found courage and honesty, but by then it may well be too late. Perhaps, though, you’ve some plan to encourage this happy occassion? Sooner, rather that later would be preferable. I suspect you would find widespread concensus on that point amongst the denizens here. In these matters, however silly this may sound, time is of particular essence.
They could very well be rendering people out of this country or to places here in America. We just don’t know, but what we do know is we have a paranoid president who is pleading with Congress to give the big ole telecom companies immunity over something that is not apparent. This Catch-22 is scary!
Seriously, why aren’t any of these lawsuits going forward?
So what is your explanation for their constant capitulation. They come out and say, we will never give in. Next thing we know the vote comes up and lil boots gets what he wants. Every single time. Not a few times, not a time or two but every time and on every single issue.
When I speak to them I tell them to do the job they were elected to do. Protect and defend the Constitution. I don’t try to persuade them, I’ve been around long enough to know that only money persuades the majority of them. What bmaz says about the telco issue makes alot of sense to me. I have proof of nothing, but it’s something really huge to make the entire party basically sell their soul to the republic rot while they watch the Constitution smolder in the corner.
If they don’t have immunity now, why are there no cases on NOW? WHY?
Remind me not to go to a protest with you….’cause you’ll stick out like a sore thumb and will draw attention to us! LOL I don’t want my butt fried either!!!!!!
Though, a mirror might be a handy gadget to bring. Good call. ;-)
Did FDLsee this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23417152/
WASHINGTON – Attorney General Michael Mukasey refused Friday to refer the House’s contempt citations against two of President Bush’s top aides to a federal grand jury. Mukasey said White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten and former presidential counsel Harriet Miers committed no crime.
we are so Fked
This Maladministration’s industrial grade pixie dust comes to mind…!
bmaz is a long time contributor to Marcy Wheeler’s blog, Emptywheel. He is now a headliner. He’s a brilliant attorney, one of the most respected attorneys around left blogosphere.
They can’t go forward because the telecoms won’t give up what they know and according to George Bush the telecoms know nothing, because he’s told them they know nothing. In fact, Georgie keeps telling everyone that they’re all being legal and stuff. *rolling eyes* It doesn’t help that we have a corrupt and criminal AG office too.
Please, All review above story @220
PLEASE.
gee, i wonder what could have given me the impression in might end up in the supreme court?
Loo Hoo, SanderO has locked horns with bmaz…! ;-)
I have considered getting rid of atm cards, credit cards, etc. and using my checking account to deposit checks and then with draw cash. Pay for stuff with money orders or cash. Take the battery out of my cell phone unless I need it for emergencies. None of this because I am “guilty” but because I hate letting the crooks use me in any way.
I think you’re probably right that they’ve been spying on everybody for a long time. This is part of why congress can’t let the cat out of the bag; too many people know too much.
of course they know what happened and who caused 9/11.
But they’re not going to confess what they know.
As in, they knew Saddam had WMD because Rumsfeld kept copies of the receipts.
Because of rulings that in order to prove standing to sue, plaintiffs have to “prove” they have been listened to, otherwise, there is no standing to sue. And IIRC, there’s only one person who has been able to prove that he was listened to without warrants and that only because the gov’t screwed up and inadvertently provided the evidence to the plaintiff’s attorneys.
I have to go. puter now acting up
Because Bush cronies are dismissing them all for lack of evidence. Because the people being spied on can’t prove directly that bushco spied on them.
You remember the good old days.
Something is weird here and it doesn’t add up.
Are they telcos refusing subpoenas in discovery?
These lawsuits aren’t going forward because 1) no standing. People can’t prove they were spied upon because everything is stamped TOP SECRET and 2) our Justice Department has been corrupted.
On the one hand you say ‘they’ are blackmailed, yet on the other you say that only money persuades the majority of them, and then you make it clear that you only tell them to ‘do their job’ and don’t try to persuade them of anything. How’s that working for you?
there are a ton of cases. eff, aclu,….
those are the cases they are trying to block.
Let it end up in the supreme court after a trial in open court.
There are cases. One in San Francisco. There have been several that were dismissed already.
We talked about that on Friday. :) We are waiting for the next step. Check emptywheel’s blog for some articles.
Did. It’s proof that Mukasy is no better than Gonzales.
You mean that there is not one judge who is pushing that these cases proceed? Not one?
Thank you. I will give it up!
Is this about civil or criminal penalties?
Surprisingly enough bigBob, this was covered here Friday night by Eli as well as emptywheel doing two or three posts on it Friday and Saturday
But then you might be reported for suspicious activity and find yourself on the no-fly list!!
I think the plaintiffs should declare that any award be given to the taxpayers.
No, the Shrub Maladminstration is telling the Telcos, to refuse to testify/talk to congress and/or outside groups… Just like they told Harriet and Josh to not show up…!
no. they are claiming that the people suing have no standing because they can’t prove they were spied on.
you may be interested in discussion here.
My ‘explanation’ for their behavior, and you must realize that I don’t ‘do’ explanations, is simply that ‘they’ see things differently than ‘we’ do and that their ‘interests’ clearly, are not our interests.
You offer not an explanation but an ‘excuse’ and a damned poor one at that.
If it makes you feel better to believe that ‘they’ would do the right ‘thing’ if only they could, but… then that is your right, of course.
Just don’t expect me to agree.
Better question is how’s it working for you with a different method? What’s your take on it? You never answered me. You don’t believe my theory. What is yours. As far as money talking that is pretty much self evident to anyone paying attention.
Paying in cash is indeed suspicious.
But they are denying that someone was spied on are they?
At least the wacky Ninth Circuit is still on the case…! *g*
No. The telcos don’t give a shit because they have been indemnified by the POTUS or some top official. Have you heard the telcos screaming? No, not a peep. They aren’t even giving the republicans enough money to keep them from bellyaching.
Yes, the one in San Francisco is proceeding because the plaintif was accidentially given evidence.
i don’t think the money is enough to explain what we are seeing. jello jay sells out for 20K? i don’ think so.
Well, if they can demand that Hillary should drop out if she doesn’t win, can we ask the same of Pelosi?
Bingo!..About a year after 9/11 a freelance photo-journalist was given his file by a friend who worked at the FBI. IIRC, it was about 100 pages of very small print that had everything, including the fact that he was a member of AA and had not purchased alcohol on a credit care for the previous 5 years.
Standing is always the first hurdle… No Standing, no deal…!
Is that the case where the government mistakenly released a list of phone calls that had been recorded?
The plaintiffs aren’t after money. They want truth. And the attorneys are not trial lawyers. They volunteer their services to the ACLU.
Snort!! I’ll show up with a big wad of “whatever works to deflect their evil weapon” to protect my sorry butt…and I’ll look like some kind of inflated pear!!! But, because I don’t have the machine that Sigourney Weaver has in Aliens…where she rocks *ss driving the “machine” and says to the guys “Where to you want it!!!!”..and establishes power….I’ll come equipped with…yeah, I think I’ll come equipped with that machine come to think of it….you know, when she takes on the alien! Bring it on…Bi….shit
I say, Bring it on….
Owwww……SOBs that hurts!!! Don’t taz me bro!!!
The fella in Portland or Seattle who was accused of the spanish incident should have a case no?
KiM
I am not saying that renditions are not happening or not possible.
But that the data can be mined for less ‘exiting’ and every bit as dangerous ends.
And your example of how to become a ‘person of interest’ is not unlikely at all.
Don’t get me wrong, I respect your opinion to disagree. I don’t think they would do the right thing if only they could either. I don’t care if you do excuses. You have no explanation for what is going on more than I do.
well, i’ve got some stuff to do tonight if i want to have lots of time to make phone calls tomorrow.
…. well, gotta stop in a say “hi” to siun first
No, not saying they are being bought in this situation. Just in general, lobby’s and such.
And there lies another roadblock. Gawd I hate this Regime.
Didn’t someone recently point out that Rove is very demanding about information before he testifies? He wants 60 Minutes’ documentation before he testifies about the Siegelman case. Maybe that’s what the Dems are doing, making them give up the goods before they discuss immunity.
Then again, I’m an optimist.
Yes, exactly.
Brandon Mayfield already sued. And won.
can you explain the 1997 legislation then?
when the D were fighting for laws to “fight the terrorists” and the Rs were fighting for our “rights”?
what makes you think the dems (beyond a few like feingold and holt) care one bit about this? seriously? i’m not trying to be asshole (even if i am succeeding). i just don’t get it… i have the same frustration with my cousins who tell me that bush is a good man and have an excuse for everything he does.
Oh really. Linky, please?
So sad if anything an indication that conditioning never works. How many more times will the labrador faithful dem voters pull the handle for the party and still see their children’s education compromised my some ambitious ‘centre’ pragmatist, they still pull the handle while they die for want of decent health care. Far more preventable deaths occur in the US every year than deaths by Arabs wanting to hang onto their oil but dem pols just like rethug pols prioritise controlling Arabs ahead of controlling disease. Why?
Take a look at the average dem representative in congress or the senate. Can you really see any difference between them and the lizards on the other side? Of course not – they share the same ambitions and make the same deals with major backers and media owners. The rethugs look more relaxed because rethug voters expect to be lied to. Hell they would do the same to make a dollar themselves.
There is no way to fix this from the inside. Like a self righting ship the way that people are selected to hold positions of influence in the party precludes any power going to anyone likely to cause instability.
I’m not sure what you mean here that there is no evidence of immunity agreements, and they wouldn’t “hold up in court” When where?Sander when you said “that” analysis is off, I just got to the thread but I can’t tell what analysis you’re referring to.
What is holding up in court very well for the government, all the way up to cert. denials by the Supreme Court (which is not an opinion or precedent but the case stops there and the lower court’s reversal in this case the Sixth Circuit’s reversal of Judge Taylor’s favorable opinion remains affirmed.
If Immunity goes through, and it looks like as I have consistently said, Sylvester Reyes who has no legal background, but worked as a border agent before he got elected to the house, it’s going to be the law and that’s going to be the end of discovering the profound and systemic criminality involved.
Glenn Greenwald has covered that here in his last two articles today and yesterday.
Right now, what is obstructing information on the illegal wiretapping is the successful invocation of the State Secrets doctrine by the government in virtually every case that has been appealed so far. The ninth circuit remanded case is not over, but it’s been crippled. There is another case in one of the Ninth Circuit district courts, and the same thing will probably happen on appeal.
There has been a sixth circuit appeal where the sixth circuit ruled that there is no standing to bring the case–this is the Catch 22 that they won’t say who has been wiretapped , so its hard for a plaintiff to be ID’d.
The Supreme Court has already given a clear indication how they feel about the State Secrets invocation by the government. They have declined to muster the 4 votes necessary to allow a case to be argued there more than once. On 2/19/08 the Supreme Court denied cert. in ACLU vs. NSA.
Christy blogged on it with good links here.
Good night, selise.
Sadly I don’t think the d’s give a rats ass. I just can’t figure why. Bushco is a criminal who belongs in Gitmo or the Hague. The only excuse bushco has for what they do it to grab power, and to line their pockets. I don’t think they plan on leaving in January either.
Bmaz is an attorney from Arizona who has been posting terrific analysis mostly on Marcy Wheeler’s EW blogs on nearly every thread that comes up there. He has a well honed ability to cut through and clarify the complexities of every legal issue he looks at.
U.S. to pay $2m for false terror arrest.
I see the Administrations motives and actions clearly, what I don’t see clearly are the actions of those in Congress.
I loved what Howard Dean said about John McCain:
““He runs on his integrity, but he doesn’t seem to have any,” Mr. Dean said on CNN. “John McCain has a history of doing what it takes, regardless of what the ethics are. I think he’s going to be a flawed candidate.” He also called the Arizona senator a “situational ethicist.””
LOL!
Nite nite, Selise.
LS, you’re cracking me up tonight! Nobody better be tazing you bro! I’d hurt ‘em. ;-)
Ow!!! Just not on my butt!!!
Let’s not forget the phone company shut off the FBI recently because they didn’t pay their phone bill.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011108N.shtml
I’m sure that was a cover-up by the phone company to make it look like they’re not listening anymore.
LOL! You watch. My ass would get fried instead. ;-)
Ok, good! I forgot the city, but we were discussing that case in my classes on Friday. I try to use lessons from the Bill of Rights Institute and FactCheck.org on Fridays or days after tests to keep my students informed about current Constitutional events from a non-partisan source.
The last lesson from BoRI dealt with the FISA bill and FactCheck had an article about the crap in the YouTube video – our Rep was targeted by name.
Let us agree then, that regardless of the ‘explanation’ for their behavior, neither of us think they are properly doing their jobs and that the consequence shall afflict all of us and our children for many a long day. Perhaps we should both brush up on our powers of persuasion, since we may well have need of them. A good discussion, thank you for crossing wits.
Howard Dean has a remarkably sharp political mind. I think it is a shame that he didn’t get more of a chance in the primary last time around–and he would have been a fantastic President.
Mmmmm…”Y’ellow..this is the person to whom you’re speaking”…(Lilly Tomlin), this is not our first rodeo.
Yeah, thinking we might need the power of persuasion as well. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
LOL ….no, not your sorry a**….one must appear…..prepared!! LOL
W doesn’t look like he wants to stick around. He looks like a student watching the clock tick down til class is over. He’s already got his books in his backpack and he’s just doodling and counting down til he can go. Cheney might have a different plan though…
It seems that the State has completely refused to be held accountable on its surveillance activities. The won’t allow courts to hear cases.
The deal is that we have a police state which can spy with impunity and no one can do a thing about it, immunity or not.
That is what this is about.
If they did not have immunity they would still spy and still refuse to be held accountable.
Honestly, if you are gonna spy…at least pay the f’ing bill!!! Bwahahahahaa. These people are…idiots!!
She may dye her hair, but the roots show. In politics her Goldwater Girl roots always show through and it’s very disconcerting and discomforting for Dems.
She may be better than McCain, but that doesn’t mean she’s the right person for the job. Sadly, I can’t say Obama is better on either political positions or personal qualities.
So much talent in the Dem field and we were pushed through name recognition, campaign funding and MSM talk to the most Conservative Dems — and they’re not so hot.
LS, stop it! You’re busting my sides out! LOL
Well, I’m going to call it a night. Hope you all have a great one. Nite nite. ;-)
Excuse me?…..roots?……..and just why can’t a woman have “roots”…WTF? Like guys don’t have spare tires and “you know”….WTF? Roots? People have hair, and it is a color, and they want to change it..like, for example, just for men,….roots…
Are you so perfect and “natural”? Is that it? Or What? Just asking?
Yes he would have. A lot were disappointed when he didn’t. Nite nite.
Night Kay!
If memory serves correctly, Amy Klobuchar voted against cloture on the most recent FISA bill.
Late to thread, but….
Skinner!
Why don’t the Democrats insist on an extension of the current law until there is a new, impartial administration to determine the necessity of telecom lawsuits?
Or, they could just impeach Bush/Cheney and stop the pain now.
Is there any evidence that they REALLY DID shut down the operations?
My default reaction to anything they can say is disbelief.
Russ Feingold’s rx to ads (Thanx Russ):
Personally I think it will take a lot more than 30,000 to undo the damage, but it’s a start.