One of the things that citizens of the first world – Americans, Canadians, Europeans and others, tend to forget, is that in most of the world there are large parts of various countries where the central government cannot reliably enforce the law, send troops, or tax. There are entire provinces in India with active rebellions. China regularly has huge job riots, and towns have risen up en masse and fought the police and army. Many South American countries don’t control large chunks of their own territory. And most African countries are elaborate jokes, divided up amongst multiple groups, with one group controlling the capital, being acknowledged by the UN, and being the official “government” in the eyes of the outside world, but often controlling less than half the country.
In the middle ages one would talk of places where “the King’s writ doth not extend.” In the modern era those places exist as well – are indeed vast, but we remark them not, because mostly they don’t matter much to those of us lucky enough to live in well ordered societies. They are places where the writ of the state is weak, or nonexistent. Sometimes any state, sometimes just any state we recognize. (Somaliland is an example of this. Virtually a nation-state, but not recognized as one.)
And it’s the sort of violence and uncertainty that occurs when the state doesn’t have a monopoly on violence that led people like Hobbes to infinitely prefer a strong state, even one that is repressive, over a weak one or anarchy.
In a weak state everything you have can be taken from you by those who are willing to use violence, or the threat of violence; and in a weak state, it is always possible for the situation to deteriorate even further. And very weak governments, contrary to what many Americans imagine, are almost as dangerous as totalitarian ones. The violence in the Congo, for example, has claimed enough people to make Stalin proud.
Likewise such uncertainty has a strong economic effect. Hernando de Soto has discussed this, after a fashion, but the finding I find most interesting is about stock returns.
Here’s the deal – stock returns make economists twitchy. They’re too high. In theory stock returns should be about equal to the bond market (maybe slightly higher, but only slightly, because the risk is only slightly higher.)
But the reason economists think this is when they look at just the US in isolation.
When you start looking at the world as a whole you suddenly find out something – stocks are very, very risky. Most of them never return a cent on an investment, viewed over the long term. This is even true in some first world nations, like Italy, where long run returns (say, take a century) are, while better than zero, barely better.
America is an anomaly. So is Canada. So is England. They are anomalies because the power of the government, having neither been used en masse against its own population (as with the USSR) or so weak as to allow for major competing brokers of violence, has allowed Einstein’s most powerful force in the universe – compound interest – to do its work.
In most countries that never gets off the ground. The government either takes too much (China and the USSR in the communist days) or can’t protect enough, and so, in fits and starts, things never quite get going.
Rational capitalism (as opposed to the sort of rabid financial speculation we have witnessed over the last few years) requires that actors be able to take a long term view. That requires the stability of law, and the belief that what one builds, one will be able to keep.
Government is always at the basis of economic prosperity. Without a good government (and good government is always strong, although a strong government can be bad) there can be no prosperity. The private sector can only make a country rich, if the government sets up the preconditions for it to do so.
Related posts:
- Sharing the Wealth: the Basis for a Fair Society
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes, Paul Davidson: The Keynes Solution: The Path to Global Economic Prosperity
- Some Notes from the Job Front of the War on Prosperity
- David H. Koch’s Americans for Prosperity: Health Care Bill is “The Final Solution”
- World Economy Finding a Bottom Because the Keynesians are in China





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Ian!
Lahoma and I have decided we’ve pretty much run out of steam here. We wish all of you a fond good bye. And keep up the good fight.
Lahoma and okk.
Wow, awesome post.
Hrrrrm? Leaving the Lake? That would be a pity, but if so, may the wind always be at your back and may what you want always be good for you.
Hey Ian,
Another thought-provoking post. As I was reading about weak governments, it struck me that the US government is evolving into, if not a failed state, a weak government. As the Department of Justice and courts and Congress and the press, among other checks and balances, are being systematically politicized, our government is losing power to act on behalf of all of us. That’s what they intend, so that the goverment is no longer a check on executive power.
I thought this post started as a compelling reminder of the need to have strong governments in then just veered off to the subject of stocks v. bonds killing the piece’s coherence and leaving the initial thesis unsatisfactorily proven.
Oh, and the regulatory agencies. Stripped, maimed, silenced.
Hi Ian, thanks!
Hmmm
Rational Capitalism,
that’s a concept we just don’t hear enough of
Is that similar to “There be dragons”??
“here there be bandits” :)
The Rationality has evaporated, we are so screwed… The slice and dice of Mortgages is truly gonna knock down the house of cards that enabled that era of US economic exceptionalism… Today, we’re merely printing the bucks to sustain our economy… Subsequently, Shrub ceased reporting our M-3 reports… Hmmm… Not many are fooled now, otherwise the US Dollar would be maintaining an equitable rate… Even the Loonie is higher, virtually a $.60 swing in favor of you Canucks…! 8-P
Ian!!! last post of yours I read prosperity was a factor more of where you reside than what you did to get it.
NYT today described how the subprime is still eroding the econ through capital crunch, higher muni bond rates, weakening fundamentals like high commodities, growing unemployment. Reported on Bill Moyer last night 70% of American have about three months worth of capital cushion before unable to pay bills.
The 70% consumer driven econ is on the edge of a growing, deep long term recession. Any thoughts?
Without courts to enforce the law, and well written laws, thieves have free reign to rob everyone blind. Of course, this takes a strong government to keep people in line.
Anyone who doesn’t see the Bush play book is to weaken government as much as possible and have their friends make as much money as possible, isn’t paying attention.
yahoo ”…most go to web for news” wonder why?
We definitely have a weak nation right now, Ian. Like you pointed out, it’s so weak it has no wiggle room and is teetering on the edge of the abyss. Scary times for sure.
In part the strength of the Central Government USA is the ability to tax states and return that piecemeal to the states a string of power if you will. That power seems to be shrinking.
M3 is collapsing, actually, while M2 is inflating madly. M3 measured much of the off-Fed credit creation, and that process has come to a screeching halt.
How do we know at what level M3 is, since they don’t publish it anymore?
A lot of banks are essentially insolvent. They’re flipping debt in various directions, not least onto the Fed’s books. The Fed, of course, can’t go bankrupt, but if the rest of the world loses all confidence in the Fed, well, that would be very very bad.
In terms of consumers–consumer credit is drying up because the banks are scared to lend. Since Americans don’t save much and are spending based on borrowing, that means a demand collapse is in the offing.
When it happens a lot of reason the Chinese etc… had to keep the US propped up goes away. However, this time around, they’ll probably use the collapse as a buying opportunity so the US may get out of it. Next time there won’t be the same huge float of US dollars overseas, I think.
Of course, the mess may be so extreme that even a couple trillion can’t bail the US out, and if it is, then all bets are off.
Various folks calculate it every once in a while. The constituents are still published, so you can reconstitute it, it’s just a pain to do so.
It can be calculated to a fair approximation by other published information.
My Bad, I’m a Poly Sci/History grad, not an Econ grad…! ;-)
Ian, nice post and picture..I love the Golden Spiral…
…it explains the whole ball of wax!
Then CHAOS takes over and that’s where the fun begins.
But, but — I thought St Ronnie told us that government was the problem!
It is right now. Reagan said “we’re going to make government the problem”. And he and his succesors did.
Father Bong used to say, in regards to wealth:
“Shit rolls down hill, wealth does not”
Hello, Ian. Just a tiny quibble -
‘The private sector can only make a country rich,’ or ‘Only the private sector can make a country rich?
I did not understand what you meant by M2, M3, so I googled it and thought I would post it here in case there were others like me who are not so up on economics.
Released Monthly
Released by Fred (Federal Reserve Economic Data @ St. Louis)
The terms M1, M2, M3 refer to the monetary aggregates. For quite some time it was thought that there was a perfect one to one relationship between these numbers and the rates of inflation. Recently this relationship seems to have broken down, and the money supply numbers have lost some of their appeal to market participants. It is still important to watch for strong growth in the money supply which might lead to inflationary pressures as money inflates aggregate demand.
M1: Technically defined this is the sum of: the tender that is held outside banks, travelers checks, checking accounts (but not demand deposits), minus the amount of money in the Federal Reserve float.
M2: The sum of: M1, savings deposits (this would include money market accounts from which no checks can be written), small denomination time deposits (where small is less than $100,000), retirement accounts.
M3: M2 plus the large time deposits (for any of you with more than $100,000 deposits you add to this…). Eurodollar deposits, dollars held at foreign offices of U.S. banks, and institutional money market funds.
Don’t the Chinese already own $6 trillion of our debt? Plus, they manufacture most of our consumables…
Yep. The government is the problem to the rogue criminals we have in the White House for sure.
LOL!
Well, heck, Ian; you just put down the entire Conservative rationale in one shot.
This is what happens in Russia. Except that the thieves are within the government, using the many contradictory laws to harass businesses and collect bribes.
I talked with one business owner who said if she paid everything the inspectors asked for, it would exceed 100% of her business income.
I wonder if that’s the same thing as John Lennon singing…“….the only thing we take with us is our souls, THINK”? Could be.
No, “The private sector can only make a country rich, if the government sets up the preconditions for it to do so.”
You need a good and reasonably strong government to set the preconditions in which capitalism can do the great good it is capable of.
Oh, wait. Can’t Conservatives say, “Precisely; there should be just enough government as is needed to ensure that capitalism (or whatever) can work and no more than that”?
Reconstituting M3
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
Well, maybe. But i was thinking more in the terms of St. Ronnie’s “Trickle Down” Theory. You know Lee Raymond needs a couple more villas and a few more private jets before the spoils of Exxon’s BILLIONS of quarterly profit $$$$’s make their way down to the common folk.
;(
True, but by removing the power of GOVERMENT regulatory for a fee (laisse Faire) market environment creating imaginary value with the housin bubble. That bubble would not have happened in a regulated environment.
The relationship to government is that every government that is tied to the US econ and the dollar quakes when the US marjkets go down. Now that hedge funds have their bets called (margins) the spiral has some energy to drive it down.
Does the Stock market effectively vauluate the econ? As the work force shrinks from off shoring labor and capitial and competition for commodities and resourses increase more downward pressur is exerted as value of assets decrese.
So what is the stock markets mechanism for propping up prices? Especially and investors move to less risk?
4:31PM-It is eleven minutes past the magic hour, I salute you and echo Katymaine with several 707’s.
Iraq war ’caused slowdown in the US’
Former World Bank VP: Iraq spending responsible for the subprime crisis.
The people who predicted this were fired.
Yep. I get it. ;-)
Makes you wonder what Ken Lay is going right now. I doubt he’s dead and frozen. LOL
I must butt in here for one comment on the Ms. I spent the early part of my career fighting against those who thought the Ms were the be-all and end-all of economic forecasting. Chicago School types. It’s all baloney. The relationship between the Ms and the economy varies all over the lot, and for the solid reason that financial market deregulation/innovation keeps changing the relationship. I know more shipwrecks of forecasts based on money supply analysis than any other methodology.
Thanks for this: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
So, M1 is how much cash is sloshing around;
M2 is Cash + money in bank accounts;
M3 is investments?
hereabouts that would get a big Duh!
If we’ve learned anything from the last seven years is that: “The Truth Will Set You Free!”*
*to spend more time with your family.
Boom!
Non-Borrowed Bank Reserves Now Negative
And whaddya bet Darth Cheney gets a little kickback from that?
I picture Ken Lay with using a 1950’s cash register to tally in all the money that has been laundered from Iraq to Dubai and into his hands for Dick and George to have a very nice retirement. Don’t you?
Not enough decimal places available on the old registers.
Re: the magic of compound interest. Here’s a comment from Warren Buffett from today’s NYT:
not enough zeros on that old machine
Ian,
If, or when, however you view it, the economy tanks and the results worse than the depression, how does one hang on, how much money do we need or is it going to be worthless and people like me without much well and truly skewered.
I’d say we are evolving towards a very strong state, one in which the executive is unchecked. Republicans agree with Hobbs that the world is brutish and scary, and we have no hope but greater violence than everyone else.
’spose ol Darth will “lease” some of shrub’s Paraguay real estate to retire to?
Isn’t that what Cheney’s done all along with Shrub?
I thought he was referring to San Francisco! ;-)
Somehow I think his fiefdom in Dubai will suffice.
I think people with and without money are screwed. Bernanke wants to cut interest rates which are already below the actual inflation in the economy, so savers will lose money hand over fist. The US stock market won’t protect us, because many of our companies are consumer-driven, and the rest of the companies are in deep overseas competition.
If you don’t have any money, you will be screwed because things are getting more expensive.
Good point, but I was thinking these criminals don’t like using anything electronic or hooked up to servers. LOL
They’ve got a bunker somewhere (Paraguay?) with the money in it and not a register in sight!
I meant to point to Boeing, which lost a huge tanker contract to Airbus, as an entity facing huge competition from overseas. Let’s hope the Dreamliner gets into the air on the current schedule.
And on that cheery note, we’re off to the movies, entertaining ourselves to death.
Read the econ Gross National Product is around $15 trillion the Fed budget aroun $3 Trillion.
In econ 101,2,3 read a multiplier of the issue as it is re-lent once then twice is a part of that M1,2,3, formula. By lower rates to central bank theory has it that money supply is EXPANDED then when inflation grows over X% the Fed tries to cool it with higher rates.
Bernanke has no where to move when inflation erodes purchase power. So Bush runs around the world getting big capital to buy up US real estate and companies further reducing American assests.
Where is supply side econ in this? Where is a econ policy? This is con men robbing peter to pay paul with a cut of the action to cronies.
So Ian what is the next world economic strategy? WWIII, that seems to be the Neocon view as expressed by McPain and the 100 year war.
What if we go back to the basics creating wealth by labor and capital instead of financial instruments of make believe?
Good evening Ian, and all others here in attendance.
During the so-called ‘Middle-Ages’, the ‘merchant class’ gained ascendency and caused a shift in both economic AND political reality.
Given that ‘corporations’ are now ‘international’ and seemingly, beyond effective ‘national’ control, some form of international control would seem the only effective ’solution’. But, I dare say, that it would not be merely wing-nuts who would immediately see the anti-christ on the near-horizon were such a ridiculous notion to be floated.
Better, I think, that we hunker down and realize that; ‘HERE be thugs, thieves and brigands, unchecked and in the ascendency.’ For the forseeable future, the ‘clever’ having already got their funds off-shore, will have a feeding frenzy. Their ’stock’ looks great so long as the ‘Great War Machine’ rolls on, unchecked and apparently unstoppable. Of course, someday it will ‘end’ and then the worlds love and affection will quite overwhelm us.
America has not the vaguest clue what is in store for her, poor dear. Her people are going to get the lesson of a lifetime. The fun’s not started yet!
BTW, folks, don’t retire to Lanai…
http://www.hawaiitribune-heral…..ocal06.txt
What I don’t understand is why more people aren’t outaged over the collapse of the dollar. [present company excepted of course]
Does the average citizen just not realize the dollar is dropping fast?
Nope. They don’t have a clue.
In a weak state everything you have can be taken from you by those who are willing to use violence, or the threat of violence.
And in the USA as well, in the poorest inner city communities. When people talk about economic improvement in these areas, it’s sometimes as if they think just plopping a grocery store down will change things. If citizens don’t feel that the rule of law works for them, then you’ve got reeeeal problems.
They will when they’re handed rupies to buy stuff with. LOL
Ian, what do you think of the tax rebates that congress has agreed to pass out to the American people. I cannot for the life of me figure out how borrowing more money from China or wherever will help our economy.
Rupees, Ma Cheri! Or Loonies… ;-)
IIRC, gas prices (like most everything else on the Islands), have pretty much always been substantially higher than on the mainland. Twenty-five years ago, I was paying $1.35 on base for regular and downtown was running over a $1.50 (on Oahu). What with inflation and all the run ups since then, it’s no surprise that a gallon is approaching $5 there.
Thanks, Ian. I always love your posts. They stimulate discourse if not the economy.
The very premise of capitalism confuses me. It seems their is a premise for anyone who wants to make his case for a capitalistic system/concept that suits his prejudice. I find the weakening of the government is the result of mixing capitalism with democracy and substituting one for the other. Isn’t this why the writers of the constitution did not address capitalism or any other economic system?
We seem to confuse business with capitalism. Trading has been here since the beginning of time. Many cultures thrived with good trade and businesses. They were not capitalists nor were these corporations.
Without understanding the premise of capitalism I cannot see how a government that uses this system/concept can make it work successfully. Can you elaborate on this.
From my observation, wealth is acquired on the labors of others. This is a tremendous transferring of wealth from the people to a few. When the people are weakened in a democracy, the government weakens. The elite take over. Their purpose is not to govern but to transfer wealth from the people to themselves.
I have been describing America as a Third World Country for years. We are still riding on some of the residue from when our government was strong and capitalism did not replace government. With the unitary president, the transfer of wealth has sped up. Can we turn this around?
Well, the preznit sez America has a strong dollar policy and I believe him!
We certainly need a Marshal Plan or New Deal approach in ameliorating the impending doom and gloom…! Invest in our infrastructure not Baghdad’s… 8-(
Thank you. I had no idea how to spell it, even though my brother lived in the Seychelle Islands and that’s what he had to buy everything with. ;-)
Sort in and out thread, if you notice at #2 in this thread kiddo is saying adios. I think he kind of felt hurt when he and CHS had a little exchange in the last thread. So, if anyone knows how to contact him perhaps they could encourage him to come back to the Lake.
Kiddo,
Good luck. I’ve enjoyed your posts.
Capitalism hasn’t existed since the 1970’s. We the taxpayers have been handed the bill many times. Congress insists the corporations must be bailed out for poor risks ie., corporate socialized risk. “Penn Central Railroad was bailed out in 1970. That was a good year because Lockheed Corporation was bailed out the same year. Commonwealth Bank of Detroit was bailed in 1972; New York City in 1975; Chrysler in 1978; First Pennsylvania Bank in 1980; Continental Illinois, the largest of the banks so far, in 1982. And look at all of these third world countries which cannot pay their interest payments. They are paying their interest payments and you’re doing it for them because the Federal Reserve System creates the money that we send to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank and then they give it to those countries so that they can pay the interest to the banks. Maybe you’ve missed that little trail but that’s how it works.”
http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
Our navy should be going after all the offshore havens such as the Cayman Islands, Lichenstein, Faulkland Islands, Bahamas, etc.. where pirates such as Romney, bank presidents, politicians, the scum of the earth who hide taxable income. They enjoy the benefits of living in the United States without paying their fair share in taxes.
Heh, we did try to impose a Gas pricing cap, which was subsequently suspende by our Repug Gov. Linda Lingle… It’s interesting that we pay so much for Indonesian Oil, which is the primary source for Hawaii’s Refineries… Which have always been the lowest spot rates for a barrel of oil… So why are we soaked so badly… Chevron had once reported that Hawaii was the top western-state profit maker for them… IRCC, only one state NY beat them out for profitability…! Hmmm…
I respect CHS.
She makes many good points.
But she is the enforcer here.
If I don’t agree with you, I have two approaches.
I can say, you’re wrong. What’s wrong with you?
Or I can say, “I diagree. Here are my reasons for disagreeing.”
Sure seems like it to me, but what do I know? eCAHN?
Hey, okk, I missed whatever happened, but please don’t deprive us of your observations. For myself, for the first time I think that through your comments I have gained a little of the flavor of a good life in OK, and that’s been a wonderful experience for this unredeemed Yankee.
Ot
Obama in Ohio speaking clearly about the Constitution and how he will restore it.
Kiddo –
Don’t go too far away. We need your input. Come back and visit. Your students are very lucky to have you as their teacher.
Kiddo – OK. How about “teacher”. I can’t type either.
Sure. And that’s where the disagreements come in.
FWIW, Christy asked him (and others) to respect the Book Salon guest and stay on the topic of the book and not be asking the guest to try to discenr what Molly Ivins would be doing or saying by Ouiji Board.
This is a request that is made for ALL book salons and ALL Blue America visits and most every other time there is a guest joining folks to answer questions.
I think it is called courtesy and not wasting the time of the guest.
Oh, I realize that and I know she had a point of asking him to stay on topic. I just don’t wish him to leave.
Why would Kiddo leave? What happened?
The stock market is anciliary to the economy in a properly functioning economy. The Primary stock market (releases of new stocks) is the important part, since that’s where companies raise money for equity. The secondary stock market, by providing a liquid market for stocks, helps make sure that its easier to raise money, since liquidity allows higher prices of stocks. Ideally it should also operate as a way to allow management to be dealt with if they go rogue, but how to do that properly is a long conversation.
Sorry I just read the explanation
Obama continues to speak about the constitution in response to a question. just what we like to hear here.
Please forgive me peevish snarkiness . . . but
I sincerely hope that each of you has a life-long sinecure of prodigious proportion and that yer porfolio is heavily invested in H2O.
For the ‘futures’ folk, that is the only way to ‘go’.
For the rest of us; we may rest comfortably assured, in the bright and sustaining hope, that our ‘leaders’ (the best and brightest) have got ‘this’ all figured out – short of ‘Rapture’, you understand – and that there is no cause, none at all, for alarum.
The Federal Reserve a banking cartel that is not Federal, much less has reserves. What they’ve done this time around is create alot of funny money via credit. It’s the banks that wanted The Glass Steagal Act of 1933 repealed in 1999. Which allowed these pirates the opportunity to create these convoluted financial instruments; hedgefunds, derivatives, CDS, CDO’s, and SIV’s to name a few. It controls our wealth and taxes us via inflation aka devaluation of our purchasing power of the dollar as they charge us interest on a fiat currency that is backed by good faith and credit. The dollar isn’t even a dollar, it’s a Federal Reserve Note.
That’s happened before. I bet he’ll be back.
Kiddo expressed his heart here.
Why has he left?
Hope you are right Teddy… . *s*
I prefer old-style keynesian analysis myself, modified by some other considerations. But at the end of the day – savings, demand, income, income distribution, productivity gains (and who’s getting them), inflation, who has pricing power, where the supply bottlenecks are and what the ultimate scarcity is.
Still, I do think that the fundamental insight that printing money leads to inflation somewhere is a valuable one and combined with looking at how money is allocated between groups has allowed me to understand what’s been going on in the last thirty years very well.
umm, I note some cheer in Ian’s reference to the miracle of compound interest. I have taken heed. May not be the pot at the end of the rainbow, but it beats an empty pot in hand.
Yes, “Einstein’s most powerful force in the universe” lol
In the 1800s, the railroads, bankers, mine owners and the robber barons of various ilk used thievery to enhance their wealth through acquisition of other people’s land. Still we called them business men. They were murderous crooks who ran maffia-like operations under the title, capitalism. Nothing has really changed today. These are the same people who ran the capitalistic slave trade. Child prostitution is a legitimate capitalistic enterprise
I’m so embarrassed. I thought “Kiddo” was a woman. Oh boy. That shows ya how much I know about everyone here.
I love Kiddo’s simplistic comments too. Maybe he needs a time out for now. I think it’s safe to say we all have our moments when we take things wrong or are already in a bad mood and someone says one thing and it feels larger than it is.
Hopefully he’ll be back. Honestly, I think he will.
Evening pups
Ahh Obama is talking 2nd amendment…me likey
The thing is, if he’d been asking the question of a person with no close knowledge of Molly Ivins, then not much insight would have been gained. However, asked of a co-author of Molly Ivins, the answer might well have revealed something new about Molly that we didn’t know, some anecdote, some quote — it’s the kind of question I might well ask when trying to elicit details about a person who had gone. “How do you like that? What would Mike have said if he were still around?”
I had a comment erased on the thread, and I wasn’t offended, OKK will be back…! BTW, if they’re any DU’ers at the Lake please recommend my post on the House splitting the FISA bill…! *g*
On c-span
the question/answers are very meaty. Not flowery at all.
Maddy. I don’t know if we’ve got a depression coming up or a nasty recession. Folks who have been reading me for a while will remember that I predicted stagflation some time ago, and that’s now becoming the consensus, but after that I’m not sure what happens. It could be a nasty recession but with the Sovereign Wealth Fund refloating the US financial sector in exchange for more than a pound of flesh. It could be deflation. It could be hyperinflation.
However, I think other than the obvious of slashing expenses, making sure you’re not in debt if possible, and making money while you can, the most important things you can do are not primarily financial:
1) If you’re married make sure your marriage is on good terms.
2) Make sure you have good relationships with your friends, neighbour and family.
3) consider getting some sort of alternate heating/cooking system. If you live in the right area a good wood heating stove is not a bad choice. If you have more money, some sort of active/passive solar.
4) Figure out how to grow your own food. Even in apartment you can grow some. Worse doesn’t happen, it’s still something useful to know.
5) I am very reluctant to give specific financial advice out over the net to someone I don’t know, plus I’m not that good a financial type. However in general diversifying some of your investments out of the US is a good idea since almost all your other risk is US based. But don’t do this as a short term thing, the dollar may very well rise this year, and you may get burned.
If we go back to the basics, things can be fixed. It’ll hurt, but at the end of it is a new type of world.
I think that if you wanted to do a stimulus it was about the worst possible way to do it.
Capitalism is different from merchants. If you’re near a university library, pick up a copy of Randall Collins’ “Max Weber: A Skeleton Key”. He has the best short summary I’ve seen.
I am in an area that isn’t doing badly. I have bought a condo near UT for not too much, that will be better than the stock market.
I get hassled by the gold sellers and when he said they take 28% off the top, I just said no.
Let’s let that go for the moment and say ok if that is the purpose of the Fed, let’s give it a report card and see how well it has done in stabilizing the economy. Since it was created in 1913 the Federal Reserve System has presided over the crashes of 1921 and 1929, the Great Depression of 1929-1939, recessions in the years 1953, 1957, 1969, 1975 and 1981, and a stock market Black Monday in 1987. We all know that corporate debt is soaring, personal debt is greater than ever before, both business and personal bankruptcies are at an all-time high, banks and savings and loan associations have failed in greater numbers than ever before in our history, interest on the national debt now consumes half of all of our tax dollars, heavy industry has all but been replaced by overseas competition, we’re facing an international trade deficit for the first time in our history, 75% of downtown Los Angeles and other metropolitan areas are now owned by foreigners and over half of the nation now officially is in a state of recession.
That is the report card for the Federal Reserve System after 80 years of stabilizing our economy. I don’t even think it’s controversial to say that it has failed to meet its stated objectives. The only controversial part is why has it failed? My answer is because those have never been its real objectives at all.
http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
It’s just a scam. If you do want to buy gold do it through a proper broker.
No. Because a report card on the era before the Fed would be even worse, including more than one depression.
You can make a cheap solar oven there are plans on the net a add extra insulation to a beer cooler paint it black and put a sheet of glass or clear material over the opening make sure there is a good seal get rid of the lid.
I wonder if Nancy and Harry will take another bite at the “stimulus” apple — give the unemployed and those on food stamps a hand up.
It was the company advertised on Air America and yes it was a scam and yes I told them so
Is any one listening to Obama?
At Valley Forge H.S…. ;-)
Something to look into the dates of the crisis and the previous year was there speculation easy credit that led to a bubble or other causes like debt or debt caused by war.
Then check for GOP probusiness presidents Teddy Roosevelt for example was the trust buster and a GOPer we would not expect to cause a crisis if this theory proves true.
Any President who did stop business excess should not have caused a crisis if he had 6 months to a year to get his policies enacted and the Fed didn’t screw him.
If this theory pans out Milton Friedman is in trouble.
That and me and RockPaperScizzors might be up for a prize:)
Well if all the Chicago School of Economics guys who decide Econ Prizes were to disappear that is.
Thanks Ian. I’ll head to the book store tomorrow. I appreciate the recommendation.
The Rpugs on the floor have been bragging how Vietnam is now a capitalistic society with many people having businesses. This is as old as the hills. Everyone in Asia has some kind of business. Still, the Repugs and the prez insist on confusing the two and taking credit.
They paid lip service to the idea & the big bad minority said “NO” in strong terms. Regrettably, they just didn’t have the votes to help the neediest. Obviously, a mere majority isn’t enough, it must be a super majority, soon we’ll learn what the next excuse is.
It’s probably out of print QuakerGirl. I would suggest calling ahead, and looking in used bookstores.
As for Vietnam, some folks are confusion causation and correlation. ;)
I am listening and I’m pretty amazed by the questions. They have really asked some solid questions.
I think so. Speaking about drug ads. people dancing around and you dont even know what the drug is and then there is the one you do know exactly what the drug is(laughter)
Oh Ian and the Lake get cred to for inspiring people group minds do not work in isolation we riff off each other and build, inspire each other.
The real Barack…I love his idea of hearings on C-span where everyone negotiates in the open…smart
I do too, it makes me giddy to even think about that…a gov’t where we can actually see what is going on…imagine
Hmmm… Obama is for enhanced recognition for ‘Civil Unions’, as the state doesn’t confer Marriage, and he’d allow the individual Religious faiths to decide whether to confer Marriage…
Where is he?
This is what I dreamed about. Openness in the peoples Government.
C-span
The stock market has nothing to with investing in a company.
The shares which were used to capitalize the company are just trading like coins or stamps… they are not investments in the company.
When the shave value goes up the stock owned by the company is worth more. So what?
To expand they have to issue/sell more stock, diluting the original offering or borrow.
The stock market has nothing to do with free market capitalism. It’s just a bunch of suckers taker fees for transactions.
C-Span 1!
As a child of immigrants, I really like his immigration plan but he didn’t touch on another point of his which is economic assistance to those countries so that their citizens are less likely to leave home in the first place.
Ohio but it is almost over. This is the most wonderful thing Ive heard. Lots of time on the Constitution
I must see, hope they repeat it.
I’m sure they will replay this again, maybe later tonight?
Respectful people listening and really hearing. Smart
Doc Murphy is upstairs asking if Obama will label GMO produced foods accordingly…!
What’s your take on this?
I tried posting but it told me that I could not comment on a draft?!?
He was upstairs…! ;-)
I love hearing him talk to the crowd. He is so gracious and keeps thanking people and telling them how much they are appreciated.
Capitalism is not capable of great good. It is not capable of any good at all. It is unbridled greed. Competition is not the the quickest way to progress, cooperation is. As for entrepreneurs, they are killers of the planet and sometimes of those who get in their way. The economic dislocations that seem to be coming will be painful, but perhaps good will come of it if we manage to put capitalism behind us. Think outside the box.
I do too. I love his seriousness too. It’s nice to see. ;-)
Ok Kiddo- I think you’re overreacting in a manner similar to David Bowie at the end of the Ziggy Stardust tour.
Hmm, ‘a depression or a nasty recesseion’?
Let’s go for ‘recession’, then we can all say, ‘Well, things could be much worse.’
How useful, really, in human terms, considering what for many will be very hard times, is what amounts to semantic parsing? I realize that economists must think that way, but many of them (yourself NOT included) behave as if they live on another planet. Economists just might be part of the ‘problem’, at least them what was smitten by Boesky and the Harvard Business School Boyz und Gurls
Those human beings who have been hurting already, and there are some (more than a few, actually)have got a lot more pain coming. The ‘haves’ and the ‘have-mores’ have been taking your advice already, making hay whilst the ‘SON’ done been shining.
Whatever economists choose to call ‘it’, now or later, things simply don’t look to be very pleasant.
Maybe we should consider building some debtors prisons or publicly reviving the Puritan Ethic suggesting that people receive the ‘unseen Hand’s’ love just as they deserve.
Now THAT would revive the old Glory and prime the old pump.
Where are those confounded boot-straps?
But I agree with your later comment about fundamentals. I’ve watched for almost fifty years as the manufacturing base, its knowledge base, and its ‘people’ were dismantled, dismissed and maligned as ‘redundant’ by social parasites and vultures, by fools and tools, by scholars and thugs, and by too many of our ‘business’ and government ‘leaders’ to think, for an instant, that our future will not be very ‘interesting’ indeed.
The basis of real prosperity is a solid large middle class producing real concrete things and new ideas.
Amen!
You off topic folks on some other event …no respect for the poster or participants and a disruption of a very apopos discussion of the economic melt down, why it is occurring and what can be done about it. What’s up with that?
ian welch –
suppose the u.s. economy were analogous to a large star.
the nuclear core was production of concrete goods (well, no, not goods of CONCRETE, just goods you could feel or touch.
but the entire rest of the star’s nuclear structure were “services”, like haircuts, car repairs, medicine, law, or blogging, etc)?
what happens, i have wondered, if the nuclear engine of this star, creating physical goods, aka manufacturing, falters.
and might not a very large, no-longer-supported-by-manufactures, service sector of the american economy,
collapse;
thereby, creating an unusually severe, and perhaps irreversible, decline in the american “standard of living”, i.e., in the money folks could bank.
if its worth the effort, i invite criticism of this largely uninformed analogy. it’s been troubling me for quite sometime.
Thanks for the post Ian, I appreciate it, and the education.
I tend to agree.
Ian,your post are great!
You’ve provided a stellar example of ‘in a nutshell’! Well said, and it deserves wide circulation, for even the dimmest wit may be star-tled sometimes. The only thing worse than hard times, is for the people to be ignorant of its coming. For then, demagoguery may reign, and appeals to fear will too-often succeed.
Ian the Marian Spiral Fracture by Brian Edwards…c an you do a short explanation of how it works. Sounds like Murphy’s law of economics.
Correction from the photo at the start of this post…I misspelled oops
Marian Spiral Fractal by Brian Evans
I was wondering about that ‘art’ at the beginning of the post. Most excellent, thank you for providing it (if you are the ‘responsible’ party) and for naming its source.
Didn’t quite do it right, but if you hover your mouse over the picture the name and photographer come up. It’s a visual represenation of the golden spiral, Lou linked to an explanation:
http://sonyclassics.com/whywefight/
Er, and that didn’t work, try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_spiral
Thanks, Ian.
Government is always at the basis of economic prosperity. Without a good government (and good government is always strong, although a strong government can be bad) there can be no prosperity. The private sector can only make a country rich, if the government sets up the preconditions for it to do so.
Thank you very, very much for this post. So simple; so true.
Well may be deep in EPU land, but I would like to make a couple of comments.
One thing that is central to Desoto’s argument is that with a functioning cadastral system, it becomes essentially impossible to borrow money. He writes about a theoretical guy in Peru who starts a tailoring business. To do this he has to acquire a location and a sewing machine. If he is succesful and wants to expand his business by buying another sewing machine, he can’t borrow money to do so because he lacks title to his property. We take our real property system very much for granted, but it is really essential to functioning capitalism.
And as I like to remind my libertarian acquaintences that it requires states to obtain land by force from usufruct peoples, declare state ownership, and then set up a complicated, intrusive system of regulation to govern real estate transactions and clear title.
PJ O’Rourck wrote a very interesting and amusing book about the way different countries economies work, which I am not finding on Amazon.
He visited places like Cuba and Singapore, the Soviet Union. he started at the US stock exchange, where he was surprised to discover that this centerpiece of capitalism is intensely and thoroughly regulated by the US government. Having reliable contract, is deeply dependent on a a large, complex and intrusive government. It is essential to capitalism.
Gotta say, Ian, this is some eye poppin whack up the head kinda posit stuff.
I never THOUGHT about the degree of global lawlessness, via weak government. I LIVED thru a lot of it, in my family’s times in SE Asia from ‘53-’62 or so . . .
But I never recently thought of your posit. Good one, hoss, real good one.
So despite the human species run on this rock, we are still primarily lawless, corrupted, criminal, mean, and rotten . . . . and he who has the power, rules.
SOOOOO interesting. Will the government’s WITH control, be able to stave off the barbarians at their own doors . . . you know, like WE are doing in Iraq and Afghan. They never attacked us, but we sure as hell are killin them.
I’m pretty sure, no matter WHAT the ruling governments with strength do, they can’t control or own those in places without strong government.
And I think history, from Attila, to Alexander to Rome To USSR to USA, has proven the futility and failure of those who think they CAN expand beyond their borders. *G*
Great post Ian, and this Larue thanks ya!
OKK! How is this to be? I was under the impression you two were stalwarts in here?
Was there a situation?
I’ve become real scarce here, as FDL no longer represents the progressive blog I once came to, to be a part of.
But for a stalwart couple like OKK and Lahoma? To leave?
Is there fuckery involved?
I hope, if they don’t see my post, some one will tell them, this Larue honors them . . . always liked their place and voice in the scheme of things. Theirs were GOOD places, and voices, for me to hear.
Sigh.
Many of you folks have a big picture of the processes and theory’s involved in our bad times and those to come. I admire that.
Me, I’m the little picture, or the broad brush blurred.
Your pic’s are sharp and piercing.
Either lens, we is headed to hard times, hoss, hard times.
LOOOOUUUUUU!!!
That’s a badaboom, badabing, hoss.
Book slammed on the bugs who crawled into our lives and broke a nation.
You da man, Lou. *G*
I see your comments were not addressed, if this isn’t too bold:
Many times there is confusion between the study which is basic economics and the world of political economics. A definition of politics I find useful is: the process in which one exercises control, influence or persuasion over another; political economics would exercise control, influence or persuasion through economic means (or pseudo-economic means). Government for economic purposes is merely the structure through which economic resources are directed and controlled. There is an hierarchy family, clan, … prince, king, emperor, each a stage of development of solving the direction and control of ever larger economic entities. The writers of the constitution were involved in creating a Political system to control the economic entities that were the colonies. Adam Smith wrote his economic opus in 1776 and had only 12 year window for dissemination and comprehension by the founders of the republic, the likelihood that the “Wealth of Nations” had great influence on the proceedings is remote. However, economic practicality was inherent in the deliberations and structures of the (then) new constitution.
It may be more enlightening to rephrase: there is confusion between business, capitalism, and economic processes. Economic exchange is the heart of economic process, the economic (factors) inputs to exchange and their return for participating in the economic process are: Land, and the rent it accrues; Labor which receives wages; capital (economic tools) to which interest is paid; and entrepreneur (assembles for economic purposes the other economic factors) who receives profit for their input. The Robber Barons of the 19th century absconded with the term “Capitalist” to describe the process of obtaining monetary capital to invest and develope economic goods and services necessary for economic processes from which they derived their profit.
The government used “Entrepreneurs” develop transportation, communication, resources and markets in the western frontier after the Civil War was resolved and to populate the region for economic utility. In many instances Public land was ceded at little or no cost as a means for developers to employ in economic activities. The government policy working in partnership with the entrepreneurs for economic, social, and political development.
Not a lot of care is taken to understand terms being used and the result is the great chance to become victim of political predation and/or demagoguery. It may be helpful to consider: Rich, referring to income derived from economic participation that meets economic need, wants and desires (maybe to excess). Wealth would refer to unconsumed economic income from participating in the economic process and also the accumulated unconsumed income over time, inheritance would be one form of wealth passed on to another generation for their use. This tradition is been observed from time immemorial and results in civilization and culture, destroy at some terrible risk if you must. What you are perceiving is political economics played out in the control of government to privatize the profits and make risk public by economic entities which own and control economic corporations.
The US is not a third world country in any economic measurement. Its social and educational structures have some outstanding qualities as well but are threatened by a cultural insistence on ignorance, mediocrity, and lowest common denominator (perhaps the result of offending anyone not up measure in the name of political egalitarianism). It will be reversed when the love affair with “Dumb and Dumber” is over and insistence on quality becomes the standard.
I hope I have not presumed too much with my comments on Ian’s post. Can someone inform QuakerGirl of this, please?
I am not an economist, but this is what I see:
In the 80s, I recall thinking that much of the wealth was generated through tricky financial instruments. It seemed to be largely based on gambling about the economy rather than on actually making useful things well.
The Reagan years consolidated the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about. (Republicans are good at defense spending, but not particularly good at defense.)
The Reagan administration did not enforce the Fairness Doctrine which has had a terrible affect how journalism functions in this democracy. (It has, in fact contributed to the weakening of our democratic institutions.)
The Reagan administration did not prosecute anti-trust cases (which has concentrated telecommunications, media, banking, insurance, pharmacy, and many other industries).
The Reagan administration was anti-environmental. (Think James Watt)
People tend not remember this, but the Reagan administration was terribly corrupt. (I don’t believe Reagan himself was personally corrupt [although I do think he was the 2nd worst president in my life time], but he served an important obfuscating role for very corrupt interests.) Behind the scenes, the United States (or significant actors on the behalf of this group of same right-wing people that are tormenting us now) were engaged a number of sickening enterprises-very actively supporting right-wing dictatorships in Central and South America, and behind-the-scenes machinations with Afghanistan, Iraq, and even Iran when it suited them.
It was also the start of the systematic attack on Labor (and therefore, the underlying presumptions of people who must work for a living, which is most of us) through the destruction of PATCO (the Air Traffic Controllers’ union). Of course, the anti-labor interests in this country had been very good at getting ordinary people NOT to understand the significance of organized labor to their own well-being historically, so ordinary, non-union people tended to side with the owners in this fight.
It was the period when outright greed was legitimated as natural and expectable. But the mystification went beyond that: Greediness was elevated to a desirable quality in men, indeed it was pushed as moral principle. Anybody who was insufficiently greedy and predatory was painted as weak, liberal, un-manly. (We see that smearing perfected and still operative today; although I think it might not be quite as persuasive as it used to be.)
We saw a lot of prosperity in the 90s. Some of it was real (the communications revolution, for one thing, and I do think paying down the debt did strengthen the economy). But some of it was illusory, and much of it was based on conditions we will never see again.
Clinton contributed to these developments by bringing NAFTA into being and further deregulating Telecommunications.
The Bush/Cheney years are a whole different animal. What was done in the Reagan years seems so mild and so quaint in comparison.
Bush/Cheney’s goal has been to *VERY AGGRESSIVELY* redistribute wealth back to the wealthy (You’ve heard of “trickle down”? Well this policy is called “Tsunami up”!), to grab as much power as possible while functioning as the Executive Branch, but working to effectively neuter all the bodies in the U.S. government and in the world that could possibly prosecute them for what they did while they were in office, and what they plan to do when they leave.
I call this the Late Pirate stage of global capitalism.
This administration has worked assiduously, using all the means at its disposal, legal, extra-legal, and illegal, to weaken individual rights and strengthen the rights and privileges of major corporations. [Think Supreme Court, among other things.]
And we the people have been like sitting ducks for more than 7 years. The people who have inhabited our so-called government have been working AGAINST our interests and against the nation’s interests. (I suppose you could look on the “United States” as another giant corporation. If we use that metaphor, most of us are going to get fired.)
I work indirectly in Human Resources. One sector of this industry is workforce management, specifically “talent management.” The players in this industry sells services so that large corporations can procure and keep “talented” people. In this particular period, I have been mystified about how this industry can possibly have any longevity, given that our very own capitalist class seems to be interested in returning us to indentured servitude. [Think of the bankruptcy bill *now* in light of the mortgage and healthcare crises in particular (and some of our most excellent bloggers saw these crises coming): Did these lawmakers pass this bill KNOWING that millions of people were going to be wiped out in the next few years?]
[An aside: I remember a liberal-lefty coffee-table book from the late 1970s about the causes of third world poverty. In one vignette, there was a picture of a very poor, very frail peasant woman who obviously was starving and had absolutely nothing. The caption for the picture said: “See this woman? She ran out of money. DON’T YOU run out of money.”]
The point being that if you want to survive in the coming predatory global capitalist system, you’d better get on the side of those who control everything.
This thought is enough to make one suicidal. It has completely upended my idea that even if we do it faltering and stumbling, and sometimes going backward, humanity would go forward.
[I think this is one reason by Obama is inspiring to many people. It is a projection because he is just one man who cannot singlehandedly change the destructive system we are in. But I think he signifies a break with it to many of us. I think, however, that we need a leader and a movement that really articulates this reframing systematically and convincingly. For me, John Edwards had come closer to doing it, but it was still not enough.
It is going to take some time to instantiate a progressive world view that will force leaders to take the right kinds of actions. Either we do that, or we face a very dreary and hopeless future.]
Many of your comments would meet the agreement of thoughtful persons.
However, the conflation of ‘Democracy’ with ‘Capitalism’ is not some wee mental error confined to the minds of a few confused souls.
When ‘Freedom’ is immediately rephrased as ‘free enterprise’ by the government of this nation and all its minions, as it was in Iraq, then we must, reasonably enough, conclude that such was and is the ‘official’ intention.
Arnie, I enjoy your insights very much, but obviously, I disagree with some of what you are claiming.
For over sixty years, the deliberate confusion of ‘Democracy’ with ‘Capitalism’ has been one of the signal ‘attributes’ of American Foreign Policy: from the Cold-War, where it was a major theme, to our vicious assaults upon nations in Central America who had the temerity to choose to install ‘leftist’ (read: ‘Commie’) leadership, threatening, we claimed, our ‘interests’ (read: huge profits for corporations) we have made quite clear to everyone else that ‘Democracy’ is a Trojan horse, ridden just long-enough to add veneer but looking more like a gussied-up saw-horse than a noble steed, our real agenda, clearly has been to satisfy greed.
The point of most-serious conflation is ‘war’.
When WAR becomes too profitable, ‘patriots’ demand its wholesale application, and the only ‘good’ economic policy then becomes, ‘more’!
Not much to build a future upon, nor likely to win us friends or engender genuine ‘respect’.
Domestically, we’ve far more ‘capitalism’ than ‘democracy’ as you may have noticed…
And, it would appear, that ‘capitalism’ as she is now ‘practiced’ is NOT a viable economic system, especially in the ‘long-run’. Which ‘run’ thanks to ‘capitalism’ and human stupification, we now ‘have’ only most provisionally. (Of course, that is always the case, human tenure on the planet not being guaranteed.) But, hey don’t tell the ‘folks’. they’re already confused – but then, that’s the idea.
Also: we may yet get to experience the ‘collapse of complex societies.’
As to ‘third-world’ considerations: boiled down to its essence that ’status’ reflects ‘vulnerability’ not quaint social custom or having bananas as chief export item.
The ‘haves’ and the ‘have mores’ are doing very well. However, as you may have heard, many people are ‘one paycheck away’ from disaster or ruin. That qualifies as ‘vulnerable’.
The evident destruction of the middle class has even more dire implication.
Vulnerability = consequence – the ability of other nations to ‘manage’ our domestic economic policies, just as we have done to others. But, as they say, ‘turn-about’ is ‘fair’ play …
Also, as an not-tiny nit-pick, ‘wealth’ comes from ‘resources’ and what people do with them. Money does NOT, of and by itself, ‘create’ wealth, it cannot. Money represents extant ‘wealth’ but it is only a means of exchange, a marker to determine how much ‘wealth’ there actually is. Printing more money does not make us more wealthy, in fact, if no actual ‘wealth’ underwrites these ‘new’ monies, we are rendered less wealthy and certainly less ‘honest’.
When you speak of the ‘excess’ of the wealthy, you must of course realize that genuine ‘costs’ attend such ‘excess’ usually NOT paid for by those holding such ‘excess’ or enjoying the spending of such ‘excess’.
Otherwise, I agree with much of what you’ve said and hope that ‘Dumb and Dumber’ will, indeed, trundle off to some greater ‘reward’.
Wow! Well said!
Throughly delightful. I believe Harvard Business School would profit enormously were you on their lecture staff. Boesky is still too highly regarded there, and your purview is exquisite. Damn fine, especially in placing Reagan in true perpective and debunking the myth that Clinton done ‘good’ when clearly he bears enormous responsibility for extending some of Reagan’s worst policies and refusing to acknowlege the consequences of NAFTA. And aye, pirates and brigands have held TOTAL sway for all of the last seven years, a fact seemingly still working its tortured way into ‘mainstream’ consciousness.
Thank you, DWBartoo. I’ll be waiting for The B School’s call : >