One of the things that citizens of the first world - Americans, Canadians, Europeans and others, tend to forget, is that in most of the world there are large parts of various countries where the central government cannot reliably enforce the law, send troops, or tax. There are entire provinces in India with active rebellions. China regularly has huge job riots, and towns have risen up en masse and fought the police and army. Many South American countries don’t control large chunks of their own territory. And most African countries are elaborate jokes, divided up amongst multiple groups, with one group controlling the capital, being acknowledged by the UN, and being the official “government” in the eyes of the outside world, but often controlling less than half the country.
In the middle ages one would talk of places where “the King’s writ doth not extend.” In the modern era those places exist as well - are indeed vast, but we remark them not, because mostly they don’t matter much to those of us lucky enough to live in well ordered societies. They are places where the writ of the state is weak, or nonexistent. Sometimes any state, sometimes just any state we recognize. (Somaliland is an example of this. Virtually a nation-state, but not recognized as one.)
And it’s the sort of violence and uncertainty that occurs when the state doesn’t have a monopoly on violence that led people like Hobbes to infinitely prefer a strong state, even one that is repressive, over a weak one or anarchy.
In a weak state everything you have can be taken from you by those who are willing to use violence, or the threat of violence; and in a weak state, it is always possible for the situation to deteriorate even further. And very weak governments, contrary to what many Americans imagine, are almost as dangerous as totalitarian ones. The violence in the Congo, for example, has claimed enough people to make Stalin proud.
Likewise such uncertainty has a strong economic effect. Hernando de Soto has discussed this, after a fashion, but the finding I find most interesting is about stock returns.
Here’s the deal - stock returns make economists twitchy. They’re too high. In theory stock returns should be about equal to the bond market (maybe slightly higher, but only slightly, because the risk is only slightly higher.)
But the reason economists think this is when they look at just the US in isolation.
When you start looking at the world as a whole you suddenly find out something - stocks are very, very risky. Most of them never return a cent on an investment, viewed over the long term. This is even true in some first world nations, like Italy, where long run returns (say, take a century) are, while better than zero, barely better.
America is an anomaly. So is Canada. So is England. They are anomalies because the power of the government, having neither been used en masse against its own population (as with the USSR) or so weak as to allow for major competing brokers of violence, has allowed Einstein’s most powerful force in the universe - compound interest - to do its work.
In most countries that never gets off the ground. The government either takes too much (China and the USSR in the communist days) or can’t protect enough, and so, in fits and starts, things never quite get going.
Rational capitalism (as opposed to the sort of rabid financial speculation we have witnessed over the last few years) requires that actors be able to take a long term view. That requires the stability of law, and the belief that what one builds, one will be able to keep.
Government is always at the basis of economic prosperity. Without a good government (and good government is always strong, although a strong government can be bad) there can be no prosperity. The private sector can only make a country rich, if the government sets up the preconditions for it to do so.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Ian!
Lahoma and I have decided we’ve pretty much run out of steam here. We wish all of you a fond good bye. And keep up the good fight.
Lahoma and okk.
Wow, awesome post.
Hrrrrm? Leaving the Lake? That would be a pity, but if so, may the wind always be at your back and may what you want always be good for you.
Hey Ian,
Another thought-provoking post. As I was reading about weak governments, it struck me that the US government is evolving into, if not a failed state, a weak government. As the Department of Justice and courts and Congress and the press, among other checks and balances, are being systematically politicized, our government is losing power to act on behalf of all of us. That’s what they intend, so that the goverment is no longer a check on executive power.
I thought this post started as a compelling reminder of the need to have strong governments in then just veered off to the subject of stocks v. bonds killing the piece’s coherence and leaving the initial thesis unsatisfactorily proven.
Oh, and the regulatory agencies. Stripped, maimed, silenced.
Hi Ian, thanks!
Hmmm
Rational Capitalism,
that’s a concept we just don’t hear enough of
Is that similar to “There be dragons”??
“here there be bandits” :)
The Rationality has evaporated, we are so screwed… The slice and dice of Mortgages is truly gonna knock down the house of cards that enabled that era of US economic exceptionalism… Today, we’re merely printing the bucks to sustain our economy… Subsequently, Shrub ceased reporting our M-3 reports… Hmmm… Not many are fooled now, otherwise the US Dollar would be maintaining an equitable rate… Even the Loonie is higher, virtually a $.60 swing in favor of you Canucks…! 8-P
Ian!!! last post of yours I read prosperity was a factor more of where you reside than what you did to get it.
NYT today described how the subprime is still eroding the econ through capital crunch, higher muni bond rates, weakening fundamentals like high commodities, growing unemployment. Reported on Bill Moyer last night 70% of American have about three months worth of capital cushion before unable to pay bills.
The 70% consumer driven econ is on the edge of a growing, deep long term recession. Any thoughts?
Without courts to enforce the law, and well written laws, thieves have free reign to rob everyone blind. Of course, this takes a strong government to keep people in line.
Anyone who doesn’t see the Bush play book is to weaken government as much as possible and have their friends make as much money as possible, isn’t paying attention.
yahoo ”…most go to web for news” wonder why?
We definitely have a weak nation right now, Ian. Like you pointed out, it’s so weak it has no wiggle room and is teetering on the edge of the abyss. Scary times for sure.
In part the strength of the Central Government USA is the ability to tax states and return that piecemeal to the states a string of power if you will. That power seems to be shrinking.
M3 is collapsing, actually, while M2 is inflating madly. M3 measured much of the off-Fed credit creation, and that process has come to a screeching halt.
How do we know at what level M3 is, since they don’t publish it anymore?
A lot of banks are essentially insolvent. They’re flipping debt in various directions, not least onto the Fed’s books. The Fed, of course, can’t go bankrupt, but if the rest of the world loses all confidence in the Fed, well, that would be very very bad.
In terms of consumers–consumer credit is drying up because the banks are scared to lend. Since Americans don’t save much and are spending based on borrowing, that means a demand collapse is in the offing.
When it happens a lot of reason the Chinese etc… had to keep the US propped up goes away. However, this time around, they’ll probably use the collapse as a buying opportunity so the US may get out of it. Next time there won’t be the same huge float of US dollars overseas, I think.
Of course, the mess may be so extreme that even a couple trillion can’t bail the US out, and if it is, then all bets are off.
Various folks calculate it every once in a while. The constituents are still published, so you can reconstitute it, it’s just a pain to do so.
It can be calculated to a fair approximation by other published information.
My Bad, I’m a Poly Sci/History grad, not an Econ grad…! ;-)
Ian, nice post and picture..I love the Golden Spiral…
…it explains the whole ball of wax!
Then CHAOS takes over and that’s where the fun begins.
But, but — I thought St Ronnie told us that government was the problem!
It is right now. Reagan said “we’re going to make government the problem”. And he and his succesors did.
Father Bong used to say, in regards to wealth:
“Shit rolls down hill, wealth does not”
Hello, Ian. Just a tiny quibble -
‘The private sector can only make a country rich,’ or ‘Only the private sector can make a country rich?
I did not understand what you meant by M2, M3, so I googled it and thought I would post it here in case there were others like me who are not so up on economics.
Released Monthly
Released by Fred (Federal Reserve Economic Data @ St. Louis)
The terms M1, M2, M3 refer to the monetary aggregates. For quite some time it was thought that there was a perfect one to one relationship between these numbers and the rates of inflation. Recently this relationship seems to have broken down, and the money supply numbers have lost some of their appeal to market participants. It is still important to watch for strong growth in the money supply which might lead to inflationary pressures as money inflates aggregate demand.
M1: Technically defined this is the sum of: the tender that is held outside banks, travelers checks, checking accounts (but not demand deposits), minus the amount of money in the Federal Reserve float.
M2: The sum of: M1, savings deposits (this would include money market accounts from which no checks can be written), small denomination time deposits (where small is less than $100,000), retirement accounts.
M3: M2 plus the large time deposits (for any of you with more than $100,000 deposits you add to this…). Eurodollar deposits, dollars held at foreign offices of U.S. banks, and institutional money market funds.
Don’t the Chinese already own $6 trillion of our debt? Plus, they manufacture most of our consumables…
Yep. The government is the problem to the rogue criminals we have in the White House for sure.
LOL!
Well, heck, Ian; you just put down the entire Conservative rationale in one shot.
This is what happens in Russia. Except that the thieves are within the government, using the many contradictory laws to harass businesses and collect bribes.
I talked with one business owner who said if she paid everything the inspectors asked for, it would exceed 100% of her business income.
I wonder if that’s the same thing as John Lennon singing…“….the only thing we take with us is our souls, THINK”? Could be.
No, “The private sector can only make a country rich, if the government sets up the preconditions for it to do so.”
You need a good and reasonably strong government to set the preconditions in which capitalism can do the great good it is capable of.
Oh, wait. Can’t Conservatives say, “Precisely; there should be just enough government as is needed to ensure that capitalism (or whatever) can work and no more than that”?
Reconstituting M3
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
Well, maybe. But i was thinking more in the terms of St. Ronnie’s “Trickle Down” Theory. You know Lee Raymond needs a couple more villas and a few more private jets before the spoils of Exxon’s BILLIONS of quarterly profit $$$$’s make their way down to the common folk.
;(
True, but by removing the power of GOVERMENT regulatory for a fee (laisse Faire) market environment creating imaginary value with the housin bubble. That bubble would not have happened in a regulated environment.
The relationship to government is that every government that is tied to the US econ and the dollar quakes when the US marjkets go down. Now that hedge funds have their bets called (margins) the spiral has some energy to drive it down.
Does the Stock market effectively vauluate the econ? As the work force shrinks from off shoring labor and capitial and competition for commodities and resourses increase more downward pressur is exerted as value of assets decrese.
So what is the stock markets mechanism for propping up prices? Especially and investors move to less risk?
4:31PM-It is eleven minutes past the magic hour, I salute you and echo Katymaine with several 707’s.
Iraq war ’caused slowdown in the US’
Former World Bank VP: Iraq spending responsible for the subprime crisis.
The people who predicted this were fired.
Yep. I get it. ;-)
Makes you wonder what Ken Lay is going right now. I doubt he’s dead and frozen. LOL
I must butt in here for one comment on the Ms. I spent the early part of my career fighting against those who thought the Ms were the be-all and end-all of economic forecasting. Chicago School types. It’s all baloney. The relationship between the Ms and the economy varies all over the lot, and for the solid reason that financial market deregulation/innovation keeps changing the relationship. I know more shipwrecks of forecasts based on money supply analysis than any other methodology.
Thanks for this: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
So, M1 is how much cash is sloshing around;
M2 is Cash + money in bank accounts;
M3 is investments?
hereabouts that would get a big Duh!
If we’ve learned anything from the last seven years is that: “The Truth Will Set You Free!”*
*to spend more time with your family.
Boom!
Non-Borrowed Bank Reserves Now Negative
And whaddya bet Darth Cheney gets a little kickback from that?
I picture Ken Lay with using a 1950’s cash register to tally in all the money that has been laundered from Iraq to Dubai and into his hands for Dick and George to have a very nice retirement. Don’t you?
Not enough decimal places available on the old registers.
Re: the magic of compound interest. Here’s a comment from Warren Buffett from today’s NYT:
not enough zeros on that old machine
Ian,
If, or when, however you view it, the economy tanks and the results worse than the depression, how does one hang on, how much money do we need or is it going to be worthless and people like me without much well and truly skewered.
I’d say we are evolving towards a very strong state, one in which the executive is unchecked. Republicans agree with Hobbs that the world is brutish and scary, and we have no hope but greater violence than everyone else.
’spose ol Darth will “lease” some of shrub’s Paraguay real estate to retire to?
Isn’t that what Cheney’s done all along with Shrub?
I thought he was referring to San Francisco! ;-)
Somehow I think his fiefdom in Dubai will suffice.
I think people with and without money are screwed. Bernanke wants to cut interest rates which are already below the actual inflation in the economy, so savers will lose money hand over fist. The US stock market won’t protect us, because many of our companies are consumer-driven, and the rest of the companies are in deep overseas competition.
If you don’t have any money, you will be screwed because things are getting more expensive.
Good point, but I was thinking these criminals don’t like using anything electronic or hooked up to servers. LOL
They’ve got a bunker somewhere (Paraguay?) with the money in it and not a register in sight!
I meant to point to Boeing, which lost a huge tanker contract to Airbus, as an entity facing huge competition from overseas. Let’s hope the Dreamliner gets into the air on the current schedule.
And on that cheery note, we’re off to the movies, entertaining ourselves to death.
Read the econ Gross National Product is around $15 trillion the Fed budget aroun $3 Trillion.
In econ 101,2,3 read a multiplier of the issue as it is re-lent once then twice is a part of that M1,2,3, formula. By lower rates to central bank theory has it that money supply is EXPANDED then when inflation grows over X% the Fed tries to cool it with higher rates.
Bernanke has no where to move when inflation erodes purchase power. So Bush runs around the world getting big capital to buy up US real estate and companies further reducing American assests.
Where is supply side econ in this? Where is a econ policy? This is con men robbing peter to pay paul with a cut of the action to cronies.
So Ian what is the next world economic strategy? WWIII, that seems to be the Neocon view as expressed by McPain and the 100 year war.
What if we go back to the basics creating wealth by labor and capital instead of financial instruments of make believe?
Good evening Ian, and all others here in attendance.
During the so-called ‘Middle-Ages’, the ‘merchant class’ gained ascendency and caused a shift in both economic AND political reality.
Given that ‘corporations’ are now ‘international’ and seemingly, beyond effective ‘national’ control, some form of international control would seem the only effective ’solution’. But, I dare say, that it would not be merely wing-nuts who would immediately see the anti-christ on the near-horizon were such a ridiculous notion to be floated.
Better, I think, that we hunker down and realize that; ‘HERE be thugs, thieves and brigands, unchecked and in the ascendency.’ For the forseeable future, the ‘clever’ having already got their funds off-shore, will have a feeding frenzy. Their ’stock’ looks great so long as the ‘Great War Machine’ rolls on, unchecked and apparently unstoppable. Of course, someday it will ‘end’ and then the worlds love and affection will quite overwhelm us.
America has not the vaguest clue what is in store for her, poor dear. Her people are going to get the lesson of a lifetime. The fun’s not started yet!
BTW, folks, don’t retire to Lanai…
http://www.hawaiitribune-heral.....ocal06.txt
What I don’t understand is why more people aren’t outaged over the collapse of the dollar. [present company excepted of course]
Does the average citizen just not realize the dollar is dropping fast?
Nope. They don’t have a clue.
In a weak state everything you have can be taken from you by those who are willing to use violence, or the threat of violence.
And in the USA as well, in the poorest inner city communities. When people talk about economic improvement in these areas, it’s sometimes as if they think just plopping a grocery store down will change things. If citizens don’t feel that the rule of law works for them, then you’ve got reeeeal problems.
They will when they’re handed rupies to buy stuff with. LOL
Ian, what do you think of the tax rebates that congress has agreed to pass out to the American people. I cannot for the life of me figure out how borrowing more money from China or wherever will help our economy.
Rupees, Ma Cheri! Or Loonies… ;-)
IIRC, gas prices (like most everything else on the Islands), have pretty much always been substantially higher than on the mainland. Twenty-five years ago, I was paying $1.35 on base for regular and downtown was running over a $1.50 (on Oahu). What with inflation and all the run ups since then, it’s no surprise that a gallon is approaching $5 there.
Thanks, Ian. I always love your posts. They stimulate discourse if not the economy.
The very premise of capitalism confuses me. It seems their is a premise for anyone who wants to make his case for a capitalistic system/concept that suits his prejudice. I find the weakening of the government is the result of mixing capitalism with democracy and substituting one for the other. Isn’t this why the writers of the constitution did not address capitalism or any other economic system?
We seem to confuse business with capitalism. Trading has been here since the beginning of time. Many cultures thrived with good trade and businesses. They were not capitalists nor were these corporations.
Without understanding the premise of capitalism I cannot see how a government that uses this system/concept can make it work successfully. Can you elaborate on this.
From my observation, wealth is acquired on the labors of others. This is a tremendous transferring of wealth from the people to a few. When the people are weakened in a democracy, the government weakens. The elite take over. Their purpose is not to govern but to transfer wealth from the people to themselves.
I have been describing America as a Third World Country for years. We are still riding on some of the residue from when our government was strong and capitalism did not replace government. With the unitary president, the transfer of wealth has sped up. Can we turn this around?
Well, the preznit sez America has a strong dollar policy and I believe him!
We certainly need a Marshal Plan or New Deal approach in ameliorating the impending doom and gloom…! Invest in our infrastructure not Baghdad’s… 8-(
Thank you. I had no idea how to spell it, even though my brother lived in the Seychelle Islands and that’s what he had to buy everything with. ;-)
Sort in and out thread, if you notice at #2 in this thread kiddo is saying adios. I think he kind of felt hurt when he and CHS had a little exchange in the last thread. So, if anyone knows how to contact him perhaps they could encourage him to come back to the Lake.
Kiddo,
Good luck. I’ve enjoyed your posts.
Capitalism hasn’t existed since the 1970’s. We the taxpayers have been handed the bill many times. Congress insists the corporations must be bailed out for poor risks ie., corporate socialized risk. “Penn Central Railroad was bailed out in 1970. That was a good year because Lockheed Corporation was bailed out the same year. Commonwealth Bank of Detroit was bailed in 1972; New York City in 1975; Chrysler in 1978; First Pennsylvania Bank in 1980; Continental Illinois, the largest of the banks so far, in 1982. And look at all of these third world countries which cannot pay their interest payments. They are paying their interest payments and you’re doing it for them because the Federal Reserve System creates the money that we send to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank and then they give it to those countries so that they can pay the interest to the banks. Maybe you’ve missed that little trail but that’s how it works.”
http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
Our navy should be going after all the offshore havens such as the Cayman Islands, Lichenstein, Faulkland Islands, Bahamas, etc.. where pirates such as Romney, bank presidents, politicians, the scum of the earth who hide taxable income. They enjoy the benefits of living in the United States without paying their fair share in taxes.
Heh, we did try to impose a Gas pricing cap, which was subsequently suspende by our Repug Gov. Linda Lingle… It’s interesting that we pay so much for Indonesian Oil, which is the primary source for Hawaii’s Refineries… Which have always been the lowest spot rates for a barrel of oil… So why are we soaked so badly… Chevron had once reported that Hawaii was the top western-state profit maker for them… IRCC, only one state NY beat them out for profitability…! Hmmm…
I respect CHS.
She makes many good points.
But she is the enforcer here.
If I don’t agree with you, I have two approaches.
I can say, you’re wrong. What’s wrong with you?
Or I can say, “I diagree. Here are my reasons for disagreeing.”
Sure seems like it to me, but what do I know? eCAHN?
Hey, okk, I missed whatever happened, but please don’t deprive us of your observations. For myself, for the first time I think that through your comments I have gained a little of the flavor of a good life in OK, and that’s been a wonderful experience for this unredeemed Yankee.
Ot
Obama in Ohio speaking clearly about the Constitution and how he will restore it.
Kiddo -
Don’t go too far away. We need your input. Come back and visit. Your students are very lucky to have you as their teacher.
Kiddo - OK. How about “teacher”. I can’t type either.
Sure. And that’s where the disagreements come in.
FWIW, Christy asked him (and others) to respect the Book Salon guest and stay on the topic of the book and not be asking the guest to try to discenr what Molly Ivins would be doing or saying by Ouiji Board.
This is a request that is made for ALL book salons and ALL Blue America visits and most every other time there is a guest joining folks to answer questions.
I think it is called courtesy and not wasting the time of the guest.
Oh, I realize that and I know she had a point of asking him to stay on topic. I just don’t wish him to leave.
Why would Kiddo leave? What happened?
The stock market is anciliary to the economy in a properly functioning economy. The Primary stock market (releases of new stocks) is the important part, since that’s where companies raise money for equity. The secondary stock market, by providing a liquid market for stocks, helps make sure that its easier to raise money, since liquidity allows higher prices of stocks. Ideally it should also operate as a way to allow management to be dealt with if they go rogue, but how to do that properly is a long conversation.
Sorry I just read the explanation
Obama continues to speak about the constitution in response to a question. just what we like to hear here.
Please forgive me peevish snarkiness . . . but
I sincerely hope that each of you has a life-long sinecure of prodigious proportion and that yer porfolio is heavily invested in H2O.
For the ‘futures’ folk, that is the only way to ‘go’.
For the rest of us; we may rest comfortably assured, in the bright and sustaining hope, that our ‘leaders’ (the best and brightest) have got ‘this’ all figured out - short of ‘Rapture’, you understand - and that there is no cause, none at all, for alarum.
The Federal Reserve a banking cartel that is not Federal, much less has reserves. What they’ve done this time around is create alot of funny money via credit. It’s the banks that wanted The Glass Steagal Act of 1933 repealed in 1999. Which allowed these pirates the opportunity to create these convoluted financial instruments; hedgefunds, derivatives, CDS, CDO’s, and SIV’s to name a few. It controls our wealth and taxes us via inflation aka devaluation of our purchasing power of the dollar as they charge us interest on a fiat currency that is backed by good faith and credit. The dollar isn’t even a dollar, it’s a Federal Reserve Note.
That’s happened before. I bet he’ll be back.
Kiddo expressed his heart here.
Why has he left?
Hope you are right Teddy… . *s*
I prefer old-style keynesian analysis myself, modified by some other considerations. But at the end of the day - savings, demand, income, income distribution, productivity gains (and who’s getting them), inflation, who has pricing power, where the supply bottlenecks are and what the ultimate scarcity is.
Still, I do think that the fundamental insight that printing money leads to inflation somewhere is a valuable one and combined with looking at how money is allocated between groups has allowed me to understand what’s been going on in the last thirty years very well.
umm, I note some cheer in Ian’s reference to the miracle of compound interest. I have taken heed. May not be the pot at the end of the rainbow, but it beats an empty pot in hand.
Yes, “Einstein’s most powerful force in the universe” lol
In the 1800s, the railroads, bankers, mine owners and the robber barons of various ilk used thievery to enhance their wealth through acquisition of other people’s land. Still we called them business men. They were murderous crooks who ran maffia-like operations under the title, capitalism. Nothing has really changed today. These are the same people who ran the capitalistic slave trade. Child prostitution is a legitimate capitalistic enterprise
I’m so embarrassed. I thought “Kiddo” was a woman. Oh boy. That shows ya how much I know about everyone here.
I love Kiddo’s simplistic comments too. Maybe he needs a time out for now. I think it’s safe to say we all have our moments when we take things wrong or are already in a bad mood and someone says one thing and it feels larger than it is.
Hopefully he’ll be back. Honestly, I think he will.
Evening pups
Ahh Obama is talking 2nd amendment…me likey
The thing is, if he’d been asking the question of a person with no close knowledge of Molly Ivins, then not much insight would have been gained. However, asked of a co-author of Molly Ivins, the answer might well have revealed something new about Molly that we didn’t know, some anecdote, some quote — it’s the kind of question I might well ask when trying to elicit details about a person who had gone. “How do you like that? What would Mike have said if he were still around?”