Tim Russert, in front of millions of Americans on Tuesday night, was quick to force Barack Obama to denounce Louis Farrakahn repeatedly until he worded it to Russert’s satisfaction (evidently the words "unacceptable and reprehensible" didn’t quite get the job done). Despite the fact that Obama never sought Farrakahn’s endorsement, Russert felt this line of questioning was appropriate given Farrakhan’s intolerant remarks about Jews in the past.
Okay, so let’s accept Russert’s argument that this is a fair line of inquiry. If that’s the case, then why isn’t he pressing John McCain about radical religious extremist uber-nut John Hagee?
Mr. McCain, who has been on a steady search for support among conservative and evangelical leaders who have long distrusted him, said he was “very honored’’ by Mr. Hagee’s endorsement. Asked about Mr. Hagee’s extensive writings on Armageddon and about what one questioner said was Mr. Hagee’s belief that the anti-Christ will be the head of the European Union, Mr. McCain responded that “all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee’s support.’’
Notice the "been on a steady search" part. If Obama had actively sought Farrakhan’s endorsement, his campaign would be over. Watch the YouTube above. McCain is downright proud of this Hagee endorsement.
Hagee was, if you’ll remember, the guy who said that Hurricaine Katrina was God’s revenge for a gay pride parade. He thinks war with Iran is essential so as to bring about Armageddon (when you can say bye-bye to the Jews). But as Glenn Greenwald says, he’s a white Christian evangelical bigot, and therefore entitled to respect from the pundit class:
[W]hite evangelical Ministers are free to advocate American wars based on Biblical mandates, rant hatefully against Islam, and argue that natural disasters occur because God hates gay people. They are still fit for good company, an important and cherished part of our mainstream American political system. The entire GOP establishment is permitted actively to lavish them with praise and court their support without the slightest backlash or controversy. Both George Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert sent formal greetings to the 2006 gathering of Hagee’s group.
By contrast, black Muslim ministers like Farrakhan, or even black Christian ministers like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, are held with deep suspicion, even contempt. McCain is free to hug and praise the Rev. Hagees of the world, but Obama is required to prove over and over and over and over that he does not share the more extreme views of black Ministers.
How come Tim Russert — in all the times he sits and chats with Lieberman, McCain and various high Bush officials — never reads all of the inflammatory, disgusting, crazed "Rapture-is-Coming/ All-Jews-will-Burn/ Kill-All-Muslims/ Hurricanes-are-Punishment-against-Gays" pronouncements from John Hagee and James Dobson and Pat Robertson and demand that John McCain and George Bush and Joe Lieberman "denounce" those views and "reject" their support? What’s the difference, exactly?
Enter…Bill Donahue.
Yes, Mr. Catholic League/Chocolate Jesus himself, who is (justifiably) miffed that Hagee refers to Catholics as "’The Great Whore,’ an ‘apostate church,’ the ‘anti-Christ,’ and a ‘false cult system.’ Glenn Greenwald interviewed him yesterday:
Donohue was particularly insistent that McCain’s behavior would severely harm his standing with Catholic voters — the group of voters which Karl Rove maintains is the key group for enabling the GOP to win: "This thing seems to be to be blowing up in his face. McCain has stepped in it big time."
It’s going to be hard for Russert to garner an audience for this quite as big as he did in a Presidential debate, so I’m going to make a suggestion here that I never thought I would…
(*sharp intake of breath*)
…he needs to have Bill Donohue on Meet the Press.
Fair is fair, right?
(And congratulations to Glenn Greenwald, who is getting kudos from both sides of the political spectrum on this. Big ups from the National Review.)
Related posts:
- Get a Grip, Wingnuts: John McCain Obsessively Quotes Mao Zedong
- CIA Torture Briefings: McCain Owes Pelosi an Apology
- Frank Rich: McCain Was Wrong On Everything. CNN Treats Him As Sage
- McCain Rediscovers His Passion for Screwing Us with Bad Telecom Policy
- The Media’s Generous Double Standard For Republican Extremists
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Good for you, Jane. Keep hammering this point.
And BTW, when is Keith going to denounce Tweety & Pumpkin’ Head?
Greenwald is a national treasure. I would love to see Donahue vs. Hagee on Meet the Press.
Let’s hang Hagee around McCain’s neck, right next to George W. Bush, and keep him there!
Yeah I guess I could make popcorn at 9:00am Sunday.
Is that why the insurance companies won’t pay up?
The hypocrisy of these people knows no bounds. One rule for you and one rule for us and don’t you damn well question it.
I expect Russert will go to warp 3 during the ge and focus on Obama and Al Sharpton. Does Sharpton support Obama?
Liberal Media at work:
May change soon but for now no one considers it newsworthy.
Great post, Jane. We need to keep pressing this issue on all fronts.
How about McCain’s charitable contributions to his kids’ school.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/…..e-schools/
Race seems to play big in this as well… All the people Obama has had to denounce are all people of color. No one asks McCain, Bush or Lieberman to denounce other white people.
Just an observation from a long-time lurker, some-time commentor.
Looks like it already has changed. 201 results now – better.
? I get about 200 results.
Tim Russett is really a nasty little bully who hides behind his media gang bosses. It wasn’t a denoucement he wanted from Obama; he wanted Obama to cry uncle before the world to demean him publically. By doing this he puts that upperdy black in his place. Now let’s all the white folks see how pure McCain is by comparison.
I feel like I’m back in the South when someone cries, “A fight! A fight between a ………. Nothing has changed from old attitudes, they’ve just been updated to modern day style. The force that drive are the same. The costumes are different.
It’s hard for Obama to cry bigotry but I can. And, so I’ll call it what it is.
Ah yes. Sometimes “The Google” does that on a news search. Usually a refresh fixes it.
IOKIYAC (It’s OK if you’re a Christian). Farrakhan is Muslim.
It seems fruitless to expect intelligence from places where there seems to be no sign of it.
Tim Russert is a hack. McCain is a hack. Hacks are super comfortable in the company of hacks. In this case they speak the same language – the language of hypocrisy.
Hello Jane and gang again from Paris, France!
I’ll be back next Tuesday abut obviously I’m online from here. But Jane, you already know that…*g*
But Bellafonte and Sharpton aren’t Muslims…
Yes, at ths rate Obama will have to renounce every black person from Nat Turner to present who challenged the powers that be.
I KNOW IT’S A CONSPIRACY!!111!!11111!!!!!!
I can’t speak French but it is nice to see you, Biodun
They don’t need every one. Just a couple will do the trick and it can replay.
You know I was thinking that it was more of a “heel boy” as well but then I thought I was being too persnickity. I am glad you have reinforced my view. There is, I feel, an enormous race blow up before this is all over. I don’t mean riots and stuff I mean a mud slinging match by campaigns. I won’t be pretty.
Yea, Jane!!! Yea, Glennzilla!!!
You know, this might be the ticket for the McCain hatin’ wingers to throw him an anvil — being dissed by the NY Times is a winger badge of honor, but gettin’ in bed with Catholic hatin’ snake handlers is a pander over the line.
National Review deserves credit for this — even if it is just an opportunity to distance themselves before the McCain train wreck.
Timmah’s such a hack. Here’s the guest lineup for this Sunday:
Hagee’s name will not be mentioned. I’d bet on it.
I agree.
Eat some great food for those us who have limited selections.
It is always fun to watch religious wars from the sideline. I can only imagine the horror when the first crusaders came riding up to tell everyone they had to kill them because it was god’s will. Or the Jew’s when the inquisitioner came to call, or the nazi. How about the catholics when martin luther’s band came a calling outside the imperial court of the poop in those european countries that broke from it? It doesn’t matter which one, they are all xenophobic nuts that have a club you can’t join for some reason.
end it. end religion and we end 90% of our wars. we end it. It causes people to find and enjoy their similarity and nixes those crazy bastards that always use religion, always, to motivate their crowd toward violence against another.
but alas, it comes to america and instead of a constitution written by people that were against religion having anything to do with our country, we get people that are so freaking ignorant that reading is a challenge to them. They just can’t understand why their preacher of choice could be lying about god not wanting them to personally kill that sonofabitch next door.
Educate and religion goes away. I am embarrassed for Hawking and Einstein and their constant referral to some god in their scientific work. We grow only when we realize it is us, people, that are making it happen. Not some idiotic concept used to enslave humanity by those that use humanity for their own desire for power to control it. Religion is thousands of years old and was obsolete long ago. Lettuce grow up?
Second that.
My version: religion kills more people than it saves.
Hey – I was gonna say that
I really, really, love you Jane.
Wars are not fought over religion, they are fought over property.
Eliminate religion and the property owners/coveters will find another explanation why the people who fight for them should hate and kill other people. Pigmentation and dietary habits will do just fine.
Speak for yourself, kimo sabe, but leave other people’s views alone.
It’s okay to call out bigotry when it shows its ugly face, though, and Russert (and a lot of others) should be asked about this, in public, and often.
The race card will be played in a much more insidious way than we’ve ever known. It won’t be obvious thus a criticism will be viewed as paranoid. The Obama campaign will have a hard time addressing it not for lack of ability but because their defense will be used against them.
We, the netroots, will have to be the first line of defense.
Who gives a sh** about lives..it’s souls that count. The fundamentalist view that, unless you agree with their theology, you are certain to be tortured for eternity is probably the most perverted, psychopathic religion that I can imagine. In their view probably 99.9999% of all humans that have lived fall into this category and they get great pleasure thinking about that.
An early OT but it seems to fit if you are all for the Rapture:
TPM
This guy is a fool.
McCain embraces radical cleric.
He is merely the opposite edge of the sword.
this is what I’ve been saying from the onset, that bush is a “dispensationalist”
the dispensationalist is a sick group, they misinterpreted the turning of millennium for some kind of catastrophe and they actually believe the Armageddon is a GOOD thing
they think they can help to bring the end of the earth sooner rather then later
in other words, they yearn for “the rapture”
thus the wars in Iran and Iraq
mccain, in accepting the endorsement is saying he is on board with this cult
Couldn’t agree more. We also have to ask our questions differently. I notice when Progressives or Progressive sympathizers ask a quest it resonates as an apology. We need to ask the bigotry question to Tim Russert and his ilk with greater conviction and a note of accusation. Put them on the defense again and again.
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
IMO, a factor in the Dem primary..little or no effect in the General . I can’t imagine that a overt or crypto-racist would change their vote because of exposure of racism.
I guess you can’t make all the religious nuts happy. Sucks to be a Republican.
or maybe IOKIYAA (Asshole)
spot on!
I agree, would love to hear that asked again and again.
fool? that is putting it mildly.
is this a good time to mention that I really despise mccain?
I have to say that I would really like to see Buffalo Fail meet with Bill Donohue at the next Meat the Press. However, as I read upthread, he’s got the Carville/Matalin and Shrum love-fest scheduled instead.
Precisely.
And religion is not going away – not now and probably not ever. At the core of the religious impulse is the human need to create meaning in the world, to create community and identity, and to confront their fears of death.
I was going to respond with some philosphy about souls, but decided it was too OT and too provocative. Will look for an opportunity to make my points on another thread.
The more Bill Donahue (a wacko in his own right) pitches a fit over McCain’s suck up to the fundys via Hagee, the better it is for progressives. Give Donahue all the air time he can handle. A good fight between Catholics and fundys will help to expose the foolishness and dark age fundamentals of both factions.
IMO, religion is in our DNA.
Works for me.
The overt racist I don’t worry about. They’ve been around since the beginning of time and will be here long after me. My concern is with insidious tactics is with the other people who ebb and flow with prevailing opinion. I think Hillary knows something of this.
These people aren’t hateful because they are rotten to the core and hate is the juice of their existence. They become genuinely confused. You’ll hear, “I don’t know. I thought. Originally. I’m not sure now.”
ps, sent Hagee’s “Great Whore” youtube to San Antonio Archdiocese and Huckabee campaign
What does the pumpkin say about our political process? that is has nothing to do with substance-let’s here a collective Duh
Hagee-I have written this corpulent pustule asking for explanations to some of his less than christian responses to things like Katrina.
Reply.. boiler plate doublespeak
Have you seen pictures of his church-jeebus what obscenity.
Given their head men like him are extremely dangerous.
Countervalence called for
As it is done here @FDL.
Thx Jane
Speak for your own DNA. *g*
oh Cbl you devil. nice to see you having fun.
Oh, that’s just mean. *g*
Of course, I’m sure the archbishop is more than a little familiar with Hagee.
The relationship between fundamental Christians and Catholics has been cozy enough for both sects to have voted for Dubya and generally vote all Republican all the time. If they can be split, that would be a wonderful thing for the progressive cause. They are keeping us in the dark ages in many ways. Stem Cell research and scientific education are two. Equal rights for women and gays are another.
There once was a lady named Jane
Who really can’t stand McCain
She digs all the dirt
With him she won’t flirt
So the truth she posts may be plain.
Hi Jane. Hey, I really don’t like McCain…*g*
well… i thought it was funny :)
hi Rev. Peterr!,
have scratched my head as to why Hagee gets away with this in such a heavily catholic city – home to plenty of Bircher type nutjobs, but still approx. 1 million catholics in 7th largest US city !
waving wildly to the progressive hotness in G’town !
Altruism is a trait that is born in human beings. It can be demonstrated by a toddler less than two years old. A small child will attempt to comfort a parent who feigns sadness and crying. Religion pretends to be the provider of a morality that is prewired. Parents need only nurture, teach and expand on it. Religion is not needed.
I’m afraid bigotry and wars are about a lot more than religion. I’ve spent a life time trying to understand what is the driving force that causes people to do violence. It isn’t religion or race or ethic difference. These are not the causes; they are the result of violence.
So, I lived on an island in the Indonesian archipelago in which all the people were of the same race, tradition, history and religion. They gave up on wars over six hundred years earlier. You would think this was a land of great harmony.
They found a difference to ostracize, ridicule, reject, isolate, consider less than human to people in other villages because their dance, of the same name, was slightly different. So I set out to study the dance in the various villages and I could not find a difference. So maybe one moved the arm to the left while another style placed the arm overhead for a movement. My question was, why would this be a reason for such violence towards each other?
I could only conclude that humans are inherently violent and will look for any excuse to do violence to their fellow human. What went wrong in our evolution that this has become so prominent in our nature and has caused such terrible suffering.
I think the Buddhists and some other groups reached a similar conclusion and practice nonviolence because they can’t stop their own nature. Perhaps through practicing nonviolence behavior we will overcome this trait.
On the other hand, I watch the way people love the hatefulness and cruelty of violence. This trait can truly lead to our own demise.
Phew. Thanks tw3k. I had to hold my breath for seven whole minutes!
Hi all. I thought limericks were okay now that the writers’ strike is over…
salon.com
In a word, YES. Just to clinch the deal he threw in a Green Party veep. There, he polked his finger in every Democrats eye!
My totally unscientific opinion is that humans have spent 99% of our “evolutionary time” in small (50-250) size hunter gatherer groups and that there was an evolutionary advantage for humans to be able to make very precise distinctions for “us” and “them”. Agriculture and “civilization” forced broader definitions of “us” and “them” but the underlying impulse is still with us.
Hey, maybe we should go to local emporium of spirits and confront the racists hippos for happy hr. and drink liberally or progressively if you prefer.
I’d say race is one major factor.
Much of the RC church in San Antonio is Hispanic, in great contrast to Hagee’s folks. Given the current race-baiting going on in the southwest, courtesy of the GOP’s “Great Wall” strategery, my guess would be that the RC’s in SA are just trying to keep out of the way of the wingnuts and not stir up trouble.
Now if this was playing out in somewhere like St. Louis or Chicago, I’d guess that the archbishop would be in front of the camera and talking to every reporter he could find.
Donahue is not universally liked among the Catholic hierarchy, mostly because of his delusions of grandeur and habit of sticking his foot in his mouth — but every once and a while . . . *sharp intake of breath* . . . even Donahue gets one right.
from Conason’s piece:
my bold. that horse left the barn a long time ago.
ding, ding, ding !
Author Marvin Harris reaches the same conclusion in The Sacred Cow and Abominable Pig:
and oh yeah Mr. Cbl !
Very OT, but is this the cbl who likes the Texas Tornados and Freddy Fender?
A long time ago is an understatement. I think the barn has decomposed since then.
Clearly Sen. Obama must atone for anything said by African-Americans.
Now to get Russert to denounce Whitey Bulger.
-G
It’s easy and comfortable to attribute things to DNA. Means we have nothing to do with it. We’ve had lots of religions over the eons. Roman Gods antedated Christ who arrived in force when a sufficiently large number of people changed their minds. Mostly we have to grow up. No sign of anything like that happening soon.
why yes it is ! back after months of no toobz. good to see you
So, is McCain promising to Hagee followers that he will appoint more Catholic Supreme Court Judges, like Roberts, et. al.?
Isn’t Russert a devout Catholic, and don’t Chris Matthews, Pat Buchannon, and Cokie Roberts have any questions about this endorsement?
Great one.
Whitey Bulger
I caught part of a Nader interview this a.m. and had to ask myself “what’s he saying that’s any different from some of the candidates who have already dropped out?”. It’s ridiculous. I’d rather write in Ron Paul’s name than vote for cheap-ass Nader.
The specifics of “religion” change over time but I am not aware of any “culture” that is without “religion”.
OT Have any of you watched Obama “bustin’ a move on Ellen’s show – it’s on Huff. Really great.
Has Senator Obama denounced the twin African-American gay porn actors who were recently arrested for robbery?
Tap, tap, tap……We’re waiting.
-G
I wonder what would happen if Louis Farrakhan published a glowing endorsement of Tim Russert and John McCain.
OT – well, hmpf! Jello Jay has endorsed Obama! s’posed to up his foreign policy credentials…
interesting concept…
I’ll go over to Huff but speaking of religiofascishypocritia…it seems that people who give Mitt a pass on religious litmus tests aren’t willing to do so for Obama.
What a bunch of crap. It’s all about power and money. Nothing else. So write the check already and STFU.
now that’s funny
I think “growing up” is the right meme to use for a bunch of these issues. As a species and as a planet, we’re going thru a rough adolescence. No guarantee that we’ll make it thru it in one piece. But, we’re definitely challenged to become adults. And it’s as hard as ever …
Do you mean I’ll have to give up my immaginary friend? I, for one, will fight to the death for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. ;)
Sort of on the general topic, via Froomkin, Timothy Goeglein, Bush’s liaison to conservatives and Christian groups was caught plagiarizing, apparently on several occasions. Irony? Naw, just SOP.
Have they announced the date of Goeglein’s medal ceremony?
LOL!
One of the many things I love about large academic medical centers is the rich diversity of religious beliefs among the many smart people using their powerful intellects for the greater good.
And I love the culture of tolerance that respects all beliefs regarding religion: including the belief that religions (or deity/deities) do not exist.
The post above seeks to motivate public action in the ploitical sphere to decry (rightly) McCain’s strong links with a “preacher” notorious for religious intolerance.
What an odd format for commenters to denigrate others’ religious beliefs.
Also, how sad that the fundamentalist hate preachers have – in so many minds – been equated with all religious beliefs. This would come as quite a surprise to my friends in Catholic Worker and the pagan community – as well as to Mark Trotter,: the gentle ecumenical pastor who preached tolerance and acceptance in the Methodist church I attended as a boy.
Afternoon Elliott!
Peculiar being here in the middle of the day.
What’s shakin’?
Amen
no mucho, just catching up on a backlog, and drifting in and out of the Lake.
How u?
Shouldn’t people be able to say that they think that religious beliefs are wrong?
Same deal. Catching up on Marcy and Glenn and FDL. Light morning.
Instant paranoia sets in on days when I have no clients :)
Also OT but the Dow is down 293 points ‘cuz Bush is taking care of business –just like he takes care of everything else.
These folks are swimming up stream:Dallas Morning News
I am tolerant of other beliefs. I really don’t understand religion nor do I support religion. While I realize beliefs are as diversion as the population it does become easy to generalize religion to the extremists that populate media.
Amen to that…snarking
As that famous Texan, Dr. Phil, would say, “Hey Rob, how’s that workin’ for ya?”
Says Mr. Schlein, “This just gives Democrats a reason to say to gays, ‘Hey, these Republicans really hate you’.”
Do we need to? Honestly, and no shit, do we really need to?
I’m curious as to what would have happened if Obama and said, “Hey, Tim, what part of ‘reprehensible’ don’t you understand?”
Just sayin’.
As you well know, Rob, the same First Amendment that protects all Americans right to worship – or not – as they choose protects any American’s right to make the most hateful comments they chose about religion or religions.
Even the odious Rev Hagee and the (usually) excecrable Bill Donahue.
Yet the fact of this right makes relgious intolerance (of one religion or all) and religious prejudice (against believers or non-believers) no less odious.
Rob, you know the First Amendment as well as I do.
Since we both know people are free to say what ever they wish about religion, the question
is merely another debate team diversion tactic.
And yet another failure of the same.
So – Rob – other than the daily display of sophistry – what’s your point?
Oops – back later for the sophistry du thread.
I’ve somehting more useful to bury – kitties are letting me know it’s time to change the litter boxes.
Rrrow!
lolcat
Hey, sorry for the OT, but Tommy Yum just sent me a copy of a public radio show he did yesterday…
Thought you all might like to hear how Esten is doing!
Link to the radio podcast, here.
Shameless BlogWhore #1: If you haven’t read this yet, (and I think Jane will post this at FDL at some point) HOWIE at DWT has an article about the all day concert, a Benefit for Esten, tomorrow.
For some reason, I’m thinking of Groucho Marx…
“I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.”
It does boogle the mind… .
What alleged god, or belief in said god has ever proved to be anything but another mechanism of control of humanity, some worse, some not so bad, but nonetheless a control, and in hagee’s case a complete corruption of the myth of christianity.
Life is a spiritual journey that requires no belief system whatsoever as a prerequisite to that journey.
My definition of god is music resonating thru ten dimensions of hyperspace
A quote from Michio Kaku. Play on and try to cause as little harm as possible.
Thanks jacqrat!
The news about Esten’s progress is a great Friday treat!
Just trying to figure out what gets classified as “hate”. Is saying L. Ron Hubbard did not visit the Van Allen radiation belts hateful? Is saying Joseph Smith did not find magical glasses to translate religious texts hateful? Is saying Jesus did not come back from the dead hateful? Is saying ghosts don’t exist hateful? Is saying that the soul doesn’t exist hateful?
Aloha ya’ll! We have a new nomenclature…
Hmmm… puts ‘Nattering Nabobs of Negativism’ to shame…! ;-)
Hate and sulphurous venom ooze from Paston John Hagee’s pores.
Hagee’s arrogance is mind-boggling.
If anybody’s the antichrist, John Hagee is it.
And I’m neither a Catholic, Muslim or citizen of New Orleans.
lol
h/t Atrios
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) – The economic impact of the mortgage crisis and credit crunch will be huge, and it has barely begun, a new study prepared by several prominent economists and released Friday has concluded.
“Feedback from the financial market turmoil to the real economy could be substantial,” it said. Unless they can quickly recapitalize, banks are likely to cut back their lending to consumers and businesses by more than $1 trillion, cutting economic growth by more than a percentage point over the next 12 months
(full report available over at Atrios’ as I am having serious linking issues)
I’m having a T-shirt made stat!
“the left-wing fever swamps of loony liberal activists”
WOW!! Does that mean I’m at the right place?
Spiro lives!
Made of hemp, I trust.
Spiro lives in a cheaper suit!…….mo bettaz
‘ere
Actually I’m a cotton guy…
*ducks*
That was in response to Pelosi’s request that the DoJ take up the Contempt charges against Harriet and Josh… I had to pass it along…! ;-)
While McCain builds his house from dregs of the republican cesspool.
Ducks? Yum.
Time to make some duck gumbo, as long as we’re in the left-wing fever swamp. (And I didn’t realize you could get cotton in the swamp.)
Let’s make life more tolerable by buying out of religion and all of it’s baggage.
Let reason and morality, which is surpressed by religion, exercise good sense and goodwill to everything. Religion stiffles this. Religion is quirky, temperamental and unjust. It is predujiced to it own which makes your argument, Kirk, rediculous.
Murder,rape and mayhem are sactified by religion, just to name a few. As Quaker points out it finds any unreasonable argument for dominating those outside your religious group.
There should be a law outlawing religion. After a few decades the fervor would wain and people would act more reasonable.
So like religious people to throw a bomb and run out like Kirk. You use your charm to cover an underlying motive. You are not fooling anyone nut yourself and your ilk.
I am not atheist or religious. I resent deply that religious people want to usurp our rights to pursue happiness.
the left-wing fever swamps of loony liberal activists
I’d never cotton to that! :~)
You have heard that the link doesn’t preview correctly?
Hiya again Jane, from Paris, France–it’s 10:07 PM Friday here, so my jetlag’s finally caught up to me, so I’m finally turning in…
Tony Fratthole. I wonder where he plagiarized that line from?
-G
P.S. Here’s a picture to forward to all of your pudwipe relatives and friends who question Sen. Obama’s patriotism.
je suis la a Paris…jusqu’a mardi…et suis lie..pas comme toi quand tu a ete la l’ete derniere…*g*
Bush’s chief plagiarizer, Tim Goeglein, has been at it for awhile (h/t atrios):
http://thekenoshakid.blogspot……arism.html
quelle chance! I trust you’ll be strolling across the Pont des Arts and enjoying the sourdough-like pain Poilane…
bigbrother – all due respect, but your argument assumes that your views about religion are superior to those who who hold religion dear (I am not one of them).
Where have we heard that before?
As for dominance, it seems to me that you are willing to impugn others beliefs with contentions that all religious practices are those of the “extremists”, and that is pure fiction.
There are many esteemed “religious” folks right here. You do yourself no credit by lumping every one of them with extremist views and practices.
Actually, GSD, Boehner’s spokesman, M. Steel coined it…!
just ordered my new shirt from SnorgTees:
“the left-wing fervor swamps of loony
liberal activistssecular humanists”A bunch of hacks.
Bush is lifting his mentally ill tyrant in decline shtick from Caligula too.
Get an act.
-G
((((((((punaise))))))))
hiya, npb!
I notice that the AP is still regurgitating the Gooper’s Talking Points…
Err… We don’t patrol the streets of Seoul or Bonn or Tokyo or even Ankara… Just a tad different,IMHO…! 8-(
http://www.rawstory.com/news/m…..92008.html
Rest well, recall the commune de Paris, and bring back the history and lessons of that experience, they may be needed here, another gift from the French to a(n in)gracious republic.
Hi right back attacha – hope you’ll share a photo of you modeling your new shirt one fine day. ;~)
We don’t require those nations to immunize our private contractors against their legal systems either.
However, IIRC, what happens on base stays on base.
I think Richard Dawkins also has argued that humans have a genetic bias for religious explanations. He argues that the human adaptation was to find explanations for the behavior of others in our social groups. That ten was easily extrapolated to anthropomorphizing natural events. Nature thus acquired a human personality, needed ego-boosting, and became personally interested in our affairs. The natural moral codes essential for social functioning also became ascribed to the God(s).
But there is a diversity in how much of nature is ascribed to the God(s), and many religions take a very ”hands off” function for the ”creator” (deism… or Buddhism). Dawkins BTW is an atheist…he certainly doesn’t think that we are impermeably hard-wired to ”believe”. But he holds that in many social environments its very easy, given or genotypes, to be encouraged to believe in a personal, highly impositional, demanding deity that makes judgements and offers rewards or doles out punishments.
Looks like McCain might be feeling the heat!
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/180846.php
Hopefully, the press will pounce on him to give more details.
oops, forgot to put the snark tag.
I’m afraid you’ll you’ll have to settle for this. tee shirt.
And Global Warming will be mitigated by the frost rizing from Hades
True, but, SOFA agreements do hold service members accountable for crimes committed off-base and against nationals…!
Thanks Rob.
Now switch Hagee to Farrakhan, and McCain to Obama, and watch their heads fly off.
punaise: showoff! :)
:)
If the press smells weakness, sometimes they pounce. This opens McCain up to the question of which specific Hagee beliefs he “renounces”.
collector’s edition!
Has McCain freaking lost his mind? Suddenly today he’s a liberal (like we’d let him join the club). I know he’s been willing to kiss the butts of many who’ve previously shredded him — moral stature anyone? — but really, annoying so many core constituents in one fell swoop …
Thank God I’m a Democrat, and don’t have to watch the party’s new leader falling apart in front of the nation’s eyes.
Thank you for that response on tolerance..,the dogma of any religion espouses non tolerance by definition. So asking for tolerance of non tolerance is only amusing sophistry. Nice try to keep all your all the flock together like Sufis…that doesn’t work either as they all give god supremecy. Your lack of tolerance of my position belies your sophistic reasoning. Go to Plato’s allegory of the cave…he explains the illusions the unenlightened cling to.
It is to frightening for you and your friends to give up your attachments to make believe consciousness at the peril of the great harm religions have a history of inflicting.
An example is to fix the pain but not the problem…the good Dr. Kirk knows to well that the religious community en total will not allow that…so poverty, pain and suffering can only be addressed by faith…in of cvourse their religion. I call bullshit.
I have seen the believers trolling and making this site their podium.
I stand on the separation of powers of tricameral constitutional law and theseparation of Church and state. That is no longer the case as religious leaders the world over have fiercely entered into politics to the great harm of the rule of law.
Religious group hold cultural values within their group as controlling values to be included. Red neck hod rodding god fearing patriotic american red blooded white boy that shoot first and ask questions later…get like me or get your ass kicked patriots.
By the way I have no obligation to tolerate anyones religion. That is all of our rights. A choice not to participate. First and Fourth amendment…up or dowm?
Delicious two-fer:
The National Review link to the Greenwald piece on the Hagee endorsement also showcases his latest musings on telecom immunity. Here’s hoping the NRO audience reads both.
The problem with the abrahamic religions is that the are dominist in that they condone one people controlling others – non believers or what not.
The “lets be kind to our fellow man” stuff is not the religion that anyone objects to nor does anyone care if some believes in the unproven existence of a belief if a god.
What is troubling is when religion inserts itself into the social fabric, the public square, the policies of a community, region of a nation. And this is what is happening more and more. There are even theocracies – states run with “religious” laws.
I don’t care about someone’s religion, I don’t want to hear about it and it should be a private personal matter practiced at home or in a “church” PERIOD. If you want to “do good” to it under the banner of some social service organization, NGO or the the like.
I want one! Any way to get one? *g*
I was thinking about Hagee’s comments about the President of the European Union being the Anti-Christ. I think that’s Merkel right now, and she doesn’t seem to fit the model…anyways whoever is President is stepping down in the next few months~ long before the Armageddon.
I’ve heard that Tony Blair is running for the position. Maybe Hagee’s talking about HIM?
Lemme see~ his actions helped bring the US into a war in Iraq [the UK White Paper, Blairs support of Dubya allowed the creation of the phony “Coalition”];
Blair split from the Anglican church to becoming a CATHOLIC (that should make Hagee’s blood boil);
Blair was the principle force for Britains increasing involvement in the EU…and the Anti-Christ is supposed to be the “Prince of the North”, and the “Lion” (an obvious allusion to Britain).
Maybe someone should ask McCain if he believes, like his good buddy Hagee, if the President of the EU is the Anti-Christ! Or if he renounces such attacks on an important US Ally?
I probably offered it once as an auction fundraiser…it’s far from brand new, however.
I noticed it was a bit faded…! ;-)
!7O7 Even better artifact from the early FDL era – tanks!
I heard Dr. Dawkins on “Fresh Air” awhile back. Terry asked him if Religion is in our (DNA?). He said no and basically gave the answer that you quoted. The precursors are but Religion isn’t. He also said that he couldn’t think of a Darwinian reason for humans to be “programed” for Religion. I lost a lot of respect for him as a scientist when he gave that answer.
Dang nab it!
If you measure my intolerance of your position (that every person of any religious stripe should be lumped in with authoritative extremists) as intolerance, then of that I am plainly guilty.
What I find hard to square is that people who use rational deductive can still invest so much time in religion which is nothing but myth and what amounts to fairy tales. I just don’t get it.
OK there may be some sort of emotional comfort in believing that there is some point to all this “randomness” that we know as the universe.
The only thing that matters is to relieve the suffering of living things. Pain sucks.
Amen.
Why?
would you prefer the tile coaster instead?
In a sense you are black or white. It’s unfortunate that the extremists and fundies are so completeley off the reservation and you feel painted with the same brush. But it’s not the extreme that is the issue with religion. It’s the irrational founding of them all that is the common element.
Because his dismissive tone and the fact that he used “he couldn’t think of a reason” as evidence..came across to me that he was a self important gasbag.
Heh, that’d make a good looking mouse pad design…! 8-)
Incorrect. I do not ascribe to religion. I do, however, object to the intolerance of every religious practice and/or belief, when that intolerance is so similar to the intolerance from some of the religious.
We become them.
I consider Dawkins to be one of the best scientific minds out there today. Can you cite some others?
I just heard this MccCain excuse for Hagee on CNN, no more no less. Once McCain explains away his surrogate’s remarks its end of story for the MSM. I wonder if this is a ploy by the GOP to keep coverage of the campaign on these people attacking Obama’s religion and ethnicity and away from the real issues which the republicans are weak on and where Obama is likely to have the upper hand.
There is no way in hell the McCain campaign does not know who these surrogates are and what they are likely to say. This is all planned to keep repeating over and over negative things about Obama’s race and religion until it sinks in and has a gathering overall negative effect on Obama’s image and his campaign. As long as this stuff is not coming out of McCain’s mouth and he keeps apologizing and excusing, it will be allowed to continue and succeed in doing damage to Obama. We all know there is a limitless supply of these surrogates in the wingnut world, and it seems McCain is getting better and better at his sincere aploggies.
Intolerance of what religious practice? What is the context?
While I think religious practice is a waste of time, I don’t care if others choose to do it.
See here, the comments at which I originally directed my point.
I would be happy if there was no religion. Lots of religion is not offensive, but much of it has been very nasty.
The catholic church has so much blood and misery on its hands and is enormously wealthy, hordes it while there is so much suffering and they tell people to pray for the next life.
Well…that’s an entirely appropriate answer. He didn’t deny there could be a “Darwinian” reason for religion…he simply said that his imagination couldn’t come up with one. That’s perfectly scientific. Hypotheses have to be conceived, and then tested. But not all hypotheses are testable. If one can’t test them it isn’t a Scientific explanation.
In addition, there can be perfectly good scientific (and even Darwinian selective mechanistic) explanations for the presence of religion without attributing it to being in “our DNA”. Cultural memes can spread, and be studied scientifically, without having anything to do with the DNA [other than the very basic level of the DNA creating a brain capable of conceiving a whole range of memes]. And those memes can be “selectively favored”. Dawkins has a whole section in his most recent book on Atheism about this. It’s not as if he hasn’t considered the alternatives and ignored the issue.
But it’s not the extreme that is the issue with religion. It’s the irrational founding of them all that is the common element.
Religion is based on faith…an assumption not founded on reason. Behavior based on faith becomes unreasonable. Please don’t be unreasonable.
As Zappa would say the universe is made up of stupidity for the is more of that than hydrogen. Maybe plasma+stupidity which equals no univesal health care,,torture for prisoners…more prisoner for America 1 in 100 than any other place…more sick people…more people dying from being sick…more rich people…more poor people…more pissed people…less food and water…more untreated excrement….higher cost of living…more work and less fun Thank God
Don’t buy into praise blame(guilt). Religion does not have to be extreme to be intrusive. I absolve you of your alleged guilt if to deem to authorise me to. Perhaps rephasing would help.
That a thing or being could be god means it is a “higher power” above me therefore impeding my freedom. I have a mind of my own so no leadership needed here.
I admit to holding affection and sympathy along with anger and resentment and frustration that people taken in by religion can be such slow learners which I define as a learning disability.
However it has been a consistent experience when dealing with the faithful I always get burned which is one reason (there is that concept again), that I am so down on faith based decision making. Obama scares me on faith and war.
I disagree.
China and the old U.S.S.R. banned religion, and they are/were bloody terrors.
If you respect freedom, you must respect folk’s rights to worship (or not) as they please. Banning relegion is as noxious as banning books.
This is not to say great evil has not been done in the name of religion. Great evil has been done in the name of Manifest Destiny, socialism, communism, capitalism and on and on.
The common denominator isn’t religion – it’s us.
Nice post
Well, sure; why should California try to start solving the problem? It’s not like anybody else would ever follow our example. Oh, wait…there are all those other states who want to do the same thing if California’s successful. Damn!