Jane!

Hey now!

John McCain supports torture by the United States of America.

One acronym, Jane! IOKIYAR! *g*

When did that david Brooks column first appear? It just got into the local this mrning. I thiought I was gonna vomit on the bus. Te one that said everybody was being unfair to McCain because he’s really a maverick, ya know.

Hey Jane, thanks for posting about Wm Buckley yesterday. Took guts esp. in this day of scorched earth “debate”. I think that’s why I appreciated him. He’d at least listen to what you had to say and be okay with the fact you still had citizenship if you disagreed with him.

the passion that fueled the virulent hatred against Hillary Clinton in comments across the blogosphere just does not transfer to John McCain.

there’s nothing that compares to the feeling of betrayal.

McCain is a manufactured candidate. The problem is, no one will touch him and hold his crap accountable. It’s really scary, because they will do anything to put him in power. The country is in just as much trouble today as pre-2000.

What to do?

Back on topic: I’ve seen tons of McCain bashing. Perhaps the outrage was aimed at Fox as much as at Hillary? That association is not good for a democratic campaign…really.

The McCain story already been bashed universally.

So perhaps the stats are slanted due to the timing? Just guessing here.

I’m going to say 100 years of death and destruction in Iraq gives it a good run for its money.

funny, innit?

but not in a ha-ha way…

That should have read “anything”

Oh man. The range of opinion was pretty amazing. From I disagree with him but respected him.’ to “I remember him on Sunday morning before the Bowery Boys” to “Scumbag. Glad he’s dead.”

We have a bunch of really evil people in charge of the country and they want McCain. Until the real ways in which they took this power is openly addressed…everything else is “pretend everything is alright” I like this candidate, I like that one. It’s not alright at all — the country is still in enormous danger from these people. Here’s some important stuff that needs to be looked at:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/....._0228.html

When you wake up and the 10 top rated Kos diaries are all filled with anti John McCain vitriol, you let me know.

I have a very different view of our large orange neighbor now. I was shocked by the response there to anyone saying a positive word about Clinton. I just call it Orange State now.

Ahhh…okay. I’m not a kos reader…

may I try again? Um, maybe parents are harder on the good kids and have given up on the black sheep?

Yeah. That war hero thing makes it harder. But the elctorate has alot of younger (than me) people who don’t remember Vietnam and don’t really care all that much. I say: Pound the bastard so he don’t know what hit him. That’s what I say.

Google Ted Sampley

The hallmark of the Bush Presidency is very sadly, death.

We like Supreme Court Justices Hillary Rodham Clinton and Senator Christopher Dodd, AG Edwards, and President Obama.

What’s interesting/disturbing is that the irrational virulence against Sen. Clinton seemed to come from all over the spectrum. You couldn’t blame it on the right wing. As Pogo once said, “We have met the enemy . . .”

well, if clinton hadn’t supported the invasion and ongoing occupation of iraq - i’d concede the point.

… but what i was referring to was the primary emotional response… not the thoughtful one that comes a split second later.

The impression in this home is that the msm likes McCain.

Well damn, it’s not like she hasn’t earned at least a good bit of rational vitriol.

Or maybe we information junkie political types are far more affected by 15 years of establishment media narratives than we like to admit to themselves? Or maybe there’s more to the ways we all unconsciously code for gender than even the most enlightened of us comprehend?

We need to push for a McCrazy/Huckabee debate. What a hoot that one would be…

ah, i thought you were referring to the response here.

I’m talking about the “liberal” blogosphere. There are McCain haters, but they’re all on the right.

John McCain is a fraud, a self-styled “maverick” who claims to support “ethics” and “reform,” while voting for the Bush agenda and wallowing in the mud with dozens of lobbyists who run and finance his campaign.

Get this. The objective is to defeat McCain.

You have to pound him with simple, direct charges. Hypocrite, 10,000 years of war, corrupt, old, out of touch, unhealthy, terrible temper, unstable, mean….things like that. Paint the picture with big strokes.

I think it would help if we were to refer to McCain by his full name: John Sidney McCain III.

You know, the guy who got into politics because his Naval career was stalled out and he was never going to make admiral like his daddy and granddaddy? And who ditched his first wife for an heiress whose money financed his first congressional campaign?

Well gee might be a little to late now. Nd by the way why isn’t there outrage at the insinuation…..no the whole hearted belief that Hillary won New Hampshire becuse the voters in New Hampshire must be racist. In Iowa they voted for Obama….Hence they are truly enlightened oopps vote against Obama…AHHHHH RACIST RACISTS THEY HATE BLACK PEOPLE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE!

We are going to rue the day that this guy got the nomination for I truly fear that we are underestimating McCain and we could have another four years of no progress and a dead locked government which the Conservtives just love because nothing gets done.

Oh, and did I forget to mention that John McCain claims to care about the Geneva Conventions while supporting torture by the United States of America?

What sucks (among other things) is how this bullshit about Obama is being perpetuated in msm - the Kenyan garb, the hand not over the heart, the missing lapel pin, the schooling, the Muslim bullshit. The way they do it is so bogus. “Oh we know it’s all bullshit, but the important thing is whether it resonantes with Joe Sixpack.” so they talking about this shit. hey, if it’s bullshit 9and it is) drop it.

Hi Jane. One possibility is that the left feels it much more personally when something controversial happens from within their side than outside it. It may be that folks on the left expect Republicans to do unsavory things and therefore don’t react as strongly. This isn’t exactly a controlled experiment but about 6 months ago I posted diaries at Kos on cosecutive weeks about conservative betrayal and liberal betrayal. The former got 4 comments, the latter 25.

The idea is to evict the GOP from the White House and put more Dems into Congress. I am open to debate on this issue.

The impression here is “More of the Same” McCain sucks msm cock.

Thought better of it.

McBush works for me.

i think the issue may be that despising mcbushain is sort of a given, where as clinton is supposed to be one of our own? Of course, mccain is a cretin. check. not a lot of surprise there.

support for the iraq war killed any chance of my being enthusiastic about clinton — she wrote herself out of my world at that point. unforgivable. sure, I’ll vote for in the fall if that’s the choice, but i’ll be disappointed. and that’s completely independent of who else was running for dem nominee.

kiddo, I don’t see any room for debate there.

I may be slow on the uptake, but after reading comments and JH’s responses to comments, I am not sure I understand this post fully.

I don’t neither any three of them, HRC, Obama or McCain.

I don’t even hate McCain’s stated policies, I just think they would be disastrous, and want all voters to understand exactly why they would be so bad, with minimum words and maximum impact.

If could also explain clearly and concisely why several of them don’t make a lick of sense, and are incompatable with each other would be nice too.

Note well, that we now need to make is very well known that it is important to distinguish between McCain’s *stated* vs *real* policies in several areas (and the maverick reformer department comes to mind first.)

And who decides who liberals and leftists are? The Republicans?

“John Sidney McCain III”

Wow. Sounds very “born with a silver spoon in his mouth”, doesn’t it? Let’s run with it!

We like Supreme Court Justices Hillary Rodham Clinton and Senator Christopher Dodd, AG Edwards, and President Obama.

Actually, I wouldn’t mind seeing either Clinton or Dodd as AG; Clinton would, I think, be particularly poetic justice. Someone mentioned Edwards for Secretary of Labor and I thought that was a good fit.

or, i’d say the msm likes the comfortable funding they see lining up behind mccain …

In my personal case, I probably posted a few strongly-worded messages about Hillary’s acceptance of a Fox News debate. But it wasn’t because I hate Hillary. I don’t. I respect her dedication and intelligence, but I don’t want her as president, because of her hawkish tendencies. To me, ending the war and restructuring the role the US plays in the world is the #1 issue, and Obama is clearly the better choice to do that.

Rather, it is because I hate Fox News with a passion, and it really pisses me off when any Democrats treat them like a respectable news organization.

As for McCain’s adventures with campaign finance, I read about that stuff in other sites (particularly TPM) long before I read about it on Firedoglake, so I think it was old news by the time you posted it.

ding.

republicans behaving badly. no shocker.

I think people feel a need to call out a dino, perhaps.

I’m throwing out as many theories as I can till one sticks!

OH and one other thing the enitre backround noise of the Obama campign is based on the hatred generated by close to 20 years of smearing lying insinuation everything from drug running to murder and the left have gloomed on to that agenda. What the Republican smear campaign against the Clintons couldn’t do in twenty years, the Democratic smear campaign did in six months. Dick Morris is in awe of your accomplishment. For me I am done with politics.

Someone on a previous thread here referred to McCain as “McCan’t”. Love it! When up against Obama the “Yes We Can” guy, ole McCrazy would look so, well, you know, a lot like George Bush…

I agree. Watching the e-mail exchanges was dismaying.

Easy peasy answer, Jane.

The left expects rationality. the right operates viscerally. They can and will turn on a dime.

Or maybe information junkie political types are far more affected by 15 years of establishment media narratives than they like to admit to themselves? Or maybe there’s more to the ways we all unconsciously code for gender than even the most enlightened of us comprehend?

i’m quite convinced that’s true of all of us, myself included. (i don’t have a link handy, and i’m not going to look for it…but i’m sure you can remember a certain post and the ensuing firestorm?)

but are you suggesting that accounts for it? i have a very negative view of senator clinton - but it is most definitely surpassed by my negative view of former president clinton. is it not possible that there are those of us who feel betrayed by the last clinton presidency - and the support/blinders people who call themselves democrats and progressives have for them?

Yeah a lot of people say that and cite her AUMF vote as evidence of her “bad judgment.” Which might be a little more convincing if they hadn’t supported Edwards, too.

sorry about my own incoherent and mutually incompatable typing. Right in the middle of my daily great later afternoon slump.

Need to make a glossary of McCain terms monickers and slogans, which will focus on important points.

‘less jobs more war’ McCain
‘No you can’t’ McCain
McCain’s Gravy Train, er Bus, whatever, stuff like that.

Here is some news for you…The United States Military will still have a presence in Iraq at the end of the next Presidents term whoever that is. Count on it.

KO just compared Bush to Beavis & Butthead. It’s gonna be a good show tonight I can tell. ;-)

Lizard-brain McCain - When Junya Isn’t Enough

Hillary “we have to win in Afghanistan”.

Unless you are a big Hillary fan.

Pretty easy, Jane. We expect a hell of a lot more out of one of our own.

Um, it’s utterly new news, escalating every day. Sorry, no sale.

well, i thought it was evidence of a bit more than “bad judgement” … seemed pretty darn clear that she knew what she was doing and why … and yes, same applied to edwards. for me at least, the war was and is a defining issue. a lotta other important issues too and i don’t want to de-emphasize them. but the killing has got to stop.

…or maybe it’s just because people on Dem-leaning blogs such as this one and kos and HP don’t expect anything less from McCain, and expect more from Clinton. Just a thought.

OMG, John Barrow endorsed Obama. Anyone have a link to Hillary’s website so I can join up?

What’s interesting/disturbing is that the irrational virulence against Sen. Clinton seemed to come from all over the spectrum. You couldn’t blame it on the right wing. As Pogo once said, “We have met the enemy

I am waiting for mental health professionals to explain HDS. The hate and misogyny directed at Hillary on lefty blogs is amazing. The surprise to me is that it has demonstrated that “lizard brains” are not a wingnut exclusive. Also there seem to be a fair number of very screwed up males on the left. I guess the other possibility is that they are wingnut trolls posing as lefties.

I keep indicating that the time is fast approaching to unite behind a candidate.

the left feels it much more personally when something controversial happens from within their side than outside it. It may be that folks on the left expect Republicans to do unsavory things and therefore don’t react as strongly.

exactly.

this is probably a stupid example, but it’s the only one i can think of at the moment.

who would feel more anger towards: your spouse who you caught kissing a co-worker, or your neighbor you saw in the act with a stranger while his/her spouse was out of town?

it’s not about the seriousness of the deed - much of the emotional response comes from the sense of betrayal.

… but if you don’t feel a deep sense of having been betrayed by the clintons, i don’t think it’s going to make sense.

the right operates viscerally. They can and will turn on a dime.

Unfortunately, not as fast or as many as the Dems do…! The Rightards certainly act/vote in lock step… 8-(

No chance someone has watched her for years and just doesn’t like her because of what they have seen?

I’m talking about the “liberal” blogosphere. There are McCain haters, but they’re all on the right.

You know something is wrong when Digby is attacked and has to close down her comment section. That was really sickening.

Oh these misogynists on KO are at it again.

I suspect that the Pukes might eat McCain alive in order to make room for Romney.

yup, bingo.

(i do hear a little voice in the back of my mind warning me that the same feeling of betrayal may be lying in wait for Pres Obama’s legacy. which is why the issues do continue to matter, as well as the identity obama promotes — to referencce the previous topic)

KO; “Hill is not ruling out the Veep slot…!” Hmmm…

i think the best support for your thesis is if the people you are referring to are willing to forgive bill clinton but not hillary clinton.

is that your sense of the state of opinion?

We must have a Democratic victory. We must. No matter what it takes. Losing is not an option. Period. If the Pukes win, it is because of a fix, and all hell will break loose in this country.

Or maybe we information junkie political types are far more affected by 15 years of establishment media narratives than we like to admit to themselves? Or maybe there’s more to the ways we all unconsciously code for gender than even the most enlightened of us comprehend?

You took the words - well, the sense - out of my mouth, Pach.

The MSM have been parroting the VRWC’s accusations for years, making it clear that they viscerally dislike her, starting back in 1992, at least.

Meantime, they’ve been repeating the McCain hero/maverick meme for at least as long. It affects us all, I fear. Which is why I think nominating her would lead to (yet another) REpub victory in November.
I say that with sadness, but I think it’s true.

The guy who is destroying my country and says torture is okay.

No chance someone has watched her for years and just doesn’t like her because of what they have seen?

No problem with that..and that is mostly what I was seeing when it was Edwards v Clinton….now the amount of pure hate is amazing..again it may be trolls injecting really vicious misogyny into the lefty blogs.

I do find the grappling of the concept of infinity somewhat interesting. And the Ontological Argument also. ;0)

I’m already pre-enraged about McCain, so I’m less likely to comment. And I’ve been following the McCain public financing story closely, so there was nothing new for me there.

I guess that’s why we have to register?

Math teachers. . .

Yes. It is of the utmost importance that the 9/11 investigation be reopened and everything re-examined. There has been no proper investigation into not only 9/11 but the effect it had on this country leading to the invasion of Iraq.

Then the criminals must be brought to justice. All of them.

Selise, time to take to the ramparts… 8-(

House Could Take Up Surveillance Legislation Next Week

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmsp.....0002678676

I’ve suspected poseurs trolls as well…I also wonder if the african dress photo was circulated by rovians to stir it up and hilary’s camp flunked the response to that test.

A strong visceral approach by the Demo candidate would help change the viewpoint. Let’s face it. These elections are not about the candidate, or what the left believes. It’s about gut.

I’m sorry, I just don’t buy into Hillary-As-Victim mythology. I know there have been some misogynistic and sexist stuff said about her, but she’s screwed up badly enough on her own.

Good luck on that.

oh, and by the way, in case it’s not obvious, mccain sucks. I hate him and have hated him for years. Zero-integrity guy, obviously willing to do anything for political power. his willingness to support torture is just mind-boggling. and he certainly fails the war test.

Framing McCain’s “identity”…KISS (keep it simple stupid) is the only way to go. We can’t prosecute him, but we can show what a jerk he really is, but it has to be in simple “terms”….that stick.

We need to push for a McCrazy/Huckabee debate

I’m looking forward to Obama/McCain.

But my lady tells me I am a very emotional math type though. Lahoma likes you. And so do I. We read your stuff. And talk about it. ;0)

Edwards, at least, admitted that his vote for AUMF was a mistake and he accepted responsibility for that mistake. Hillary, through her careful triangulation (to attempt to please all the people all the time) and perhaps to appear tough at any cost, has not really accepted personal responsiblity for the mistake that was her vote. Dubya fooled her. Dubya did not fool me. Why did he fool her?

The guy who is destroying my country and says torture is okay.

right.

and let’s be clear about who started (as far as we know) the extraordinary rendition program that included kidnapping people and taking them to egypt to be tortured and/or killed.

because that would the administration of bill clinton.

and i am pretty sure that one of the reasons the MCA was supported by so many dems is that amnesty went back to 1997.

i can not tell you what this knowledge has done to my views of the democratic party in general and the clinton in particular.

I’m not, Raven. Are you?

Jane, I think it’s about the battles that folks on the left believe they can win.

They know that there will eventually be a solution to the question Obama or Clinton, and issues that weigh one way or the other will be fought over.

But for more than 8 years — decades, really, since the Reagan years and the rise of movement conservatism — the left has been marginalized by the right. At first it was taking advantage of liberalism’s generous nature, but over time it became outright theft.

McCain’s campaign as it operates right now, in defiance of law, with 59 effing lobbyist/corporate whores aboard ship, is just one more massive theft on top of a mound of systematic thefts.

Look at Marcy’s own cynicism about Pelosi’s letter to Mukasey; it mirrors our widespread belief that the Republican Party is a RICO outfit, and that they will not stop until we have taken the White House AND Congress back from them. (We know that won’t stop them, either, but it may check them for a day or two.)

That’s why we shrug collectively; McCain’s a Republican incumbent and candidate, or in other words, a thief. We’ve known it; the only thing that will change any part of those facts is removing the goal he and his RICO peeps seek. Hence the passion about all things Democratic primary.

Dean and the DNC did the right thing, filing a complaint with the FEC. This is yet another reason for the shrug; a competent person is doing the rational thing about McCain’s bullsh*t. But what do you think the FEC will do about it? Anything at all?

[sigh] And so onward to battles we know we can win.

What do you dislike about McCain? You have a great way of coming right to the point.

thank you for the heads up.

I would like Hillary so much more if she had dumped Bill years ago and not have listened to Billy Graham when she wanted to leave him. She should have gone with her intuition. Never trust the advice of a man telling a woman to stay with an adulterer. It is a projection on his part. Connected with Bill is my objection. He has been a heavy lug to carry around.

Having said that, the hatred of Hillary is not about Bill but that a woman dares to be the top dog. Obama can not imagine how high a bar has to be for a woman to be accepted. Top dog is a man’s job.

As for McCain he gets a free pass on everything because he was a war hero. PPS is going to do a program on McCain’s bravery and military service. It’s in progress.

That’s a stinger, but really, why would anyone write you in an attempt to sway you away from John McCain?

In this instance, I reject your analysis, though I don’t denounce it.

Nope but if push comes to shove I’ll pull the lever.

You’re most welcome, Ma Cheri! *g*

Yeah, that really pissed me off.

I’m talking about the “liberal” blogosphere. There are McCain haters, but they’re all on the right.

You don’t really mean to say this, do you Jane?

Just look at todays threads. McCain haters everywhere.

Hey! Here’s one one right here.

I’m sorry, I just don’t buy into Hillary-As-Victim mythology. I know there have been some misogynistic and sexist stuff said about her, but she’s screwed up badly enough on her own.

I doubt that Hillary sees herself as a victim…What disturbs me is that I get the impression that when a female blogger calls bullshit on misogyny; they get a lot of mail that has the “b” word “c” word and more. I have no evidence of that but if Digby had to close comments, it must have been pretty bad.

Do you seriously believe that Hillary Clinton would be worse on torture and perpetuating the war than John McCain?