We've picked apart dozens of the Bush Administration's fear-mongering inaccuracies and highlighted any number of scare tactics on FISA. What they want is more executive power at the expense of civil liberties and the rule of law. None of it has a thing to do with actual national security concerns. None.
It is well past time that the national media start asking what, exactly, the Bush Administration is trying so hard to keep under wraps. Do the telecoms fear being penalized for end-running a written law which contained express penalties for violations thereof? Or is it Bush, Cheney, Addington and pals who fear accountability for petulantly demanding an imperial fiat for obeisance without regard to Congress or the Courts?
Of course, that would require that the national media knew their hind end from a hole in the ground on this issue -- Glenn thinks not. And C&L agrees. Seems to me if the Bush Administration is publicly lying about a law, that it might be important to understand the law about which they were lying by, um, reading it and asking knowledgeable experts your questions. Apparently, looking like a doofus is the more popular answer. Jeebus.
Why so much effort to hide this? I'll let several former national security professionals tell you, just like they told Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell in a letter yesterday:
...The sunset of the Protect America Act (PAA) does not put America at greater risk. Despite claims that have been made, surveillance currently occurring under the PAA is authorized for up to a year. New surveillance requests can be filed through current FISA law. As you have stated, "Unlike last summer, there is no backlog of cases to slow down getting surveillance approvals from the FISA court. We're caught up to all of it now." As court orders are received, telecom companies are required to comply. Also, existing NSA authority allows surveillance to be conducted abroad on any known or suspected terrorist without a warrant. It is unclear to us that the immunity debate will affect our surveillance capabilities.
You stated on Fox News Sunday February 17 "the entire issue here is liability protection for the carriers" and that with the expiration of the Protect America Act, the telecom companies "are less inclined to help us." As mentioned above, the authorizations of surveillance under the sunset PAA still run for a year and they provide clear legal protection to any cooperating communications carrier. For new targets that are somehow not covered by the existing authorizations, the FISA court can issue an order, which the telecom companies are legally obliged to follow. Telecommunications companies will continue to cooperate with lawful government requests, particularly since FISA orders legally compel cooperation with the government. Again, it is unclear to us that the immunity debate will affect our surveillance capabilities.
The intelligence community currently has the tools it needs to acquire surveillance of new targets and methods of communication. As in the past, applications for new targets that are not already authorized by the broad orders already in place under the PAA can be filed through the FISA courts, including the ability to seek warrants up to 72 hours retroactively. Despite this fact, the President claimed on February 16 that as a result of PAA not being extended by Congress "the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence will be stripped of their power to authorize new surveillance against terrorist threats abroad." It remains unclear-in light of the law-how the President believes surveillance capabilities have changed....
I think that sums it up pretty nicely, don't you? It's signed by Rand Beers, Richard Clarke, Don Kerrick, and Suzanne Spaulding.
UPDATE: bmaz asks if Congress has seen all of the indemnification agreements the Bush Administration provided for the telecoms -- from before 9/11 until this illegal program was exposed. I'd like to know the answer to that as well. Anyone?
(Sen. Russ Feingold explains FISA via Matt Stoller at OpenLeft.)
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Morning all — just a reminder that we have a special FDL Film Salon this afternoon beginning at 4:30 pm ET.
Earlier this morning, selise posted this:
Any idea what’s up with this? Is it just discussion, or is the house taking up some matter for a possible vote?
I love this part;
how obsurd a claim the president made;
if the president’s requests aren’t breaking the law the carriers are OBLIGATED “to help us”, and if the requests ARE brealing the law, why on FRIGGIN earth would we want the law broken?
I don’t understand why the telcos who were instrumental in creating the original FISA with all its protections would even consider PAA as a viable alternative to this original law.
Since they were the framers of the original FISA (with the government) the telcos would know the broad ramifications of PAA and they themselves would be vulnerable to warrantless wiretapping because of their unique position and compromised relationship with this particular program.
Somebody told me that well the telcos are just “owned” by the Bush administration. Maybe that is true. Because the only telco that said no to this program was Qwest and look what happened to its ceo. (Joseph Nacchio insider trading charges). http://64.233.167.104/search?q.....=firefox-a
I believe the only way we can get to the bottom of this situation is to hear in a court of law from the telcos as to why, when, and exactly what was the contract agreement with the government regarding this whole warrantless wiretapping.
But then again I’m dreaming because that will never happen, huh?…
I asked several sources about this, and they are all saying there isn’t any big news to report. May just be some housekeeping on keeping the public up to date on where things are. Nothing big, though, according to what several different people from several different offices have told me.
and, to maintain my status as an obnoxious broken record, SOMEBODY needs to start asking questions about the INDEMNIFICATION AGREEMENTS that are almost unquestionably secretly in place protecting the telcos. Really, can’t somebody, anybody, ever at least ask these questions?
McCow
please see tw3k’s design here.
assembly works
Without immunity the telecom companies “are less inclined to help us.”
Without immunity I am less inclined to disobey traffic signals.
Without immunity I am less inclined to rob banks.
You’ll be happy to know that I tried to plant that seed with several folks this week. Here’s hoping it bears fruit…
I think the obvious answer is the correct one: The Bush administration has been receiving information from electronic eavesdropping on people and companies for which it could not get a warrant from FISA. That would be for purposes of spying on political opponents, and for corporate espionage.
The “terrists” are just an excuse.
Note to everybody.
Initially I thought that perhaps the telcos were the instrumental in forming this “retroactive immunity”.
But the other day I was reading this part of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (which is law-not good):
SEC. 7. REVISIONS TO DETAINEE TREATMENT ACT OF 2005 RELATING TO PROTECTION OF CERTAIN UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL.
(a) Counsel and Investigations- Section 1004(b) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (42 U.S.C. 2000dd-1(b)) is amended–
(1) by striking `may provide’ and inserting `shall provide’;
(2) by inserting `or investigation’ after `criminal prosecution’; and
(3) by inserting `whether before United States courts or agencies, foreign courts or agencies, or international courts or agencies,’ after `described in that subsection’.
(b) Protection of Personnel- Section 1004 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (42 U.S.C. 2000dd-1) shall apply with respect to any criminal prosecution that–
(1) relates to the detention and interrogation of aliens described in such section;
(2) is grounded in section 2441(c)(3) of title 18, United States Code; and
(3) relates to actions occurring between September 11, 2001, and December 30, 2005.
SEC. 8. RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY.
This Act shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act and shall apply retroactively, including–
(1) to any aspect of the detention, treatment, or trial of any person detained at any time since September 11, 2001; and
(2) to any claim or cause of action pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act.
“Or is it Bush, Cheney, Addington and pals who fear accountability for petulantly demanding an imperial fiat for obeisance without regard to Congress or the Courts?”
Bingo! Ding, ding, ding! And any other like-minded exclamation you wanna use.
That’s all this is about. Offenses getting uncovered that would force impeachment proceedings which would take us then to discussions of war crimes.
I would like to hear Sen. Obama’s position on these issues, and what he would do if elected to bring these crooks to justice.
Now for something important:
Monica “missionary only” Goodling is gettin’ hitched!
“The former Justice Department White House liaison of U.S. attorneys firing fame is engaged to blogger Mike Krempasky, one of the founders of Redstate. (Presumably he passed Goodling’s questionnaire with flying colors.)”
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi.....itched.php
If anything there is such a compelling pattern of behavior regarding the potential of abusing this “warrantless wiretapping”. Just one example:
“Profiles In Politicization: 60 Minutes Finally Airs Siegelman Story” (Christy’s prior thread)
I mean really, WTF…
You’re late to the party Attaturk was on this this morning.
Obama should bring this front and center and also how Hillary skipped the last Senate vote on FISA. Obama didn’t stay for all of it but at least showed up to vote. Hillary gives Bush everything he wants. Hillary you can’t lead by kissing ass!
Bush just wants immunity for the telecoms to cover his own ass. I’ll bet Kerry was spied on big time as well as all Dems.
The other thing that would be asked if we had real investigative media is, if the PAA is absolutely essential to national security, and we’re completely unable to wiretap terrorists without it, why did the administration wait five years after 9/11 to introduce it?
Thanks for the pic :D
In response to yellowdog jim @ 8
Thanks for the pic :D
thank You for your ingenuity.
always.
Seems to me if our Dear Leader added an indemnification clause to any agreements, it could only be for civil not criminal law breaking. I believe the Immunity question is really a CYA for Cheney/Bush and their gang.
Thank you. I have been arguing that for a long time and NOBODY has ever put a dent in it. Have run it by some very accomplished governmental liability attorneys too; no real contra-argument. If it is wrong fine, but either way the questions ought to be being asked. Seriously.
Of course. That is the whole point. Not to mention that he can pardon the criminal part if he so chooses. The point is that the telcos are NOT going to go belly up and the Administration is lying when they argue that they could.
One of the problems that I have run into time and time again is that folks who legislate or who report on these issues don’t have a criminal representation background. So the finer points of securing a warrant or the arguments on why not having one is a huge no-no, or any number of other things aren’t the first thing that come to mind on this…and have to be walked through pretty often.
Why the media hasn’t assigned legal reporters to this story is beyond me. They have them, and some are quite good actually, but they never get asked to cover it. THAT is where the meat is in all of this argument — and where the discussion ought to be — but it’s constantly getting fumbled. Do click through the links on the media above from Glenn and C&L — utterly and completely painful to watch, but it gives a lot of context on why things aren’t being asked properly on a whole lot of levels.
I agree with bmaz on this. I think we have a smokescreen within a smokescreen on this. It isn’t about national security. It isn’t about protecting the telecoms. It’s about hiding the extent of Bush’s spying on Americans.
Thanks for posting the PAA letter!
Agreed — if you haven’t watched the John King clip yet, Hugh, put down liquids before doing so. It is beyond infuriating how much of an uninformed doofus he makes of himself, and how many follow-up questions simply go unasked in his McConnell interview. It’s painful.
I should have been clear that the John King clip is at the C&L link. I clearly need more coffee this morning. It’s raining like hell here today, and I’m feeling fuzzy and tired for some reason this morning. Anyone else get that way when the weather is dull and soggy? I could use some spring flowers…
Yeah, I agree with your take on the coverage. But you know, even Toobin and Turley have not been overly astute in analyzing this deal. Better than line reporters, but still not what I would expect. I mean, the stuff I gripe about is not some hair brained tin foil theory; it is fundamental civil equity law and procedure and, best of all, is specifically discussed and provided for in the freaking national security statutes. that is why I went to such length in that piece, so it would all be laid out on a silver paltter Must be something in the water at media orgs that saps the real lawyer out of people….
I see on the FDL Book Salon list of upcoming attractions, ABC News’ legal reporter Jan Crawford Greenberg will be here to talk about her book Supreme Conflict: The Inside Story of the Struggle for Control of the United States Supreme Court at the end of March.
Perhaps you could put this question to her then, if not before.
I notice that the moment a question arises regarding the word “legal” in connection with Bush/CheneyCo, the media falls into that “dead on arrival” category.
I don’t have a legal background but I still have to live in a land of laws so I make some effort to understand my responsibilities and why. I don’t think the general public can go past Thou shalt not….commandment. That seems to be law to them. And, the media feeds into it.
With this mindset, can we expect the media pundits to ask an intelligent question and even more challenging, ask follow-up questions? Instead, they turn it into a question/answer period without questioning the accuracy of the response. The only places you get indepth reporting are NOW or Bill Moyers Journal or a Sunday interview on C-SPAN. I can go for days with hearing no indepth questions to responses.
Expecting much from the media is like expecting blood from a turnip. We should never have taken the Constitution out of the hands of the people and put it in the hands of constitutional lawyers. At that point, the people went brain dead.
Man, could King be any more of a speaker monkey?
Isn’t John King like a chief correspondent or something? I’ve seen some of his reporting before and for someone in the news business he seems remarkably uninformed.
I know, it’s bizarre. Although, having not practiced now for the last coupla years, you do lose that edge in terms of practical application knowledge by not exercising it all the time. I’ve found myself digging into law review articles and appeals briefs more frequently of late to re-sharpen my analytical brain on process. I can see how, if you haven’t practiced for years, that could be a hazard — theory takes you only so far, and practical knowledge is really essential for some of this in terms of really understanding the step-by-step, I think.
It may just be that bringing in outside commentators would be a good answer. The problem is that you’d have to bring in former AUSAs or others with national security expertise on a lot of the FISA issue, and a great number of those folks won’t talk on the record about process because they need to maintain security clearance for work they currently do and the Bush Administration hasn’t exactly refrained from being vindictive at times when smeone has crossed them. SIGH
So as not to OT. Just posted some new survey results on the Presidential and Democratic preferences on the Chris Dodd post at the bottom
Yes, he is. And the interview starts with this admission…and goes swiftly downhill from there:
KING: To most Americans out there, and to a guy like me who’s spent most of his time, in the past several months, out covering a presidential campaign, this is highly detailed stuff that’s pretty hard to follow.
“relates to the detention and interrogation of aliens described in such section;”
Aliens???? Aliens????
Are they interrogating Aliens when they round them up?
Wow. That was quite an analysis of why the senate D’s would go along with the adminstration on immunity–CYA for foolishly giving away massive amounts of taxpayer money when the inevitable lawsuits are filed for illegal spying.
Democrats: “We are united in our determination to produce responsible legislation that will protect America and protect our Constitution.”
Republicans: We are united in our determination to scare the bejesus out of Americans in order to win retroactive immunity for our law-breaking telecom buddies.
Dept of cardiothoracic surgery, National Press Club division:
Of course, didn’t you see Independence Day? And Men In Black?
Feingold and Reid cosponsoring bill to get the hell out of Iraq. Goopers WANT a big floor debate- convinced that the issue favors them since the surge got ta be so goldarned succesful.
Decent point there. But I sure haven’t done much, if any, of this kind of stuff in this century. A little consulting on civil rights cases, but mostly business stuff for some time now. It ain’t that hard to say “It’s the Fourth Amendment. It is here for everyone!”. Or “These are telephone companies. Do you think they were born last night? They have been doing this since the first phone was hooked up. Do you think they didn’t protect themselves?”
I believe that part of this act refers to the “Men in Black”—
LOL…wouldn’t surprise me…
No wonder we don’t have enough translators who speak Arabic. They’ve been too busy learning Klingon.
dammit, I just spewed my coffee. *G*
Ack Ack
Clusterfuck predicting that goopers will retain the White House—whew- I feel better already. This fucker hasn’t been right about anything since the pigs ate his little brother.
Is intercepting telepathy covered in FISA?
don’t know if it’s posted here yet but think progress has a fitz fix up for everyone;
From The Chicken Doves, Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone:
Even beyond the war, the Democrats have repeatedly gone limp-dick every time the Bush administration so much as raises its voice. Most recently, twelve Democrats crossed the aisle to grant immunity to phone companies who participated in Bush’s notorious wiretapping program. Before that, Democrats caved in and confirmed Mike Mukasey as attorney general after he kept his middle finger extended and refused to condemn waterboarding as torture. Democrats fattened by Wall Street also got cold feet about upsetting the country’s gazillionaires, refusing to close a tax loophole that rewarded hedge-fund managers with a tax rate less than half that paid by ordinary citizens.
But the war is where they showed their real mettle. Before the 2006 elections, Democrats told us we could expect more specifics on their war plans after Election Day. Nearly two years have passed since then, and now they are once again telling us to wait until after an election to see real action to stop the war. In the meantime, of course, we’re to remember that they’re the good guys, the Republicans are the real enemy, and, well, go Hillary! Semper fi! Yay, team!
How much of this bullshit are we going to take? How long are we supposed to give the Reids and Pelosis and Hillarys of the world credit for wanting, deep down in their moldy hearts, to do the right thing?
Look, fuck your hearts, OK? Just get it done. Because if you don’t, sooner or later this con is going to run dry. It may not be in ‘08, but it’ll be soon. Even Americans can’t be fooled forever.
Tragically funny what lengths this administration has taken to CYA….
That’s it!!! They are using psychics to spy on everybody!! That’s why they won’t talk about their super-duper secret methods!
Was that from today? Because he said that ages ago as well..
yup — that certainly does seem like the obvious answer.
I’d guess the bushies have been gathering political intel. And scattering some corp espionage to their friends …
It seems to me the issue goes beyond FISA, to general principles of governanace: If there is a Constitutional prohibition aganst the government doing somehting-anything-and the government can contract that function out to private industry, use the product, and then immunize the private entity-it seems to me, that is checkmate for Constitutional government.
Today. He said he is confident the Pukes will “retain” the WH and need to take back the House and the Senate and make all the Governors Pukes. I think it made all the Governors puke.
Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?”
.
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
ALL adults
31 65 4
Republicans
62 32 6
Democrats
7 88 5
Independents
32 64 4
.
12/5-9/07
26 69 5
10/12-16/07
26 67 7
9/14-16/07
25 70 5
(new CBS poll on Iraq. 31% support Clusterfuck on Iraq. 62 % of goopers support him. 31% is UP from 25% last sept.)
Thanks Christy and all the pups for great conversation, got to go for now…
Good luck to all—-
it’s the lead right now, will get the link
oops, I hit somebody linking to that, I thought I was hitting the current page so you are right, it’s an older story
I think that may be Bester’s gig…
McBush now saying that the war in Iraq will be over soon- not in 100 years. The 100 year thing ain’t goin over so well. His new announcement cements the idea that he doesn’t have the faintest fuckin idea what he’s talkin about- he’s just flappin his jaws.
At gop.gov there is a clock with ever-advancing time labeled:
But, in fact, the Protect America Act expired at the behest of President Bush, who threatened to veto any extension of it. An extension sponsored by House Democrats was subsequently voted down all 195 Republicans who voted plus 34 pro-Bush Blue Dog Democrats.
Bush could have had his FISA update back in November if he hadn’t insisted that any surveillance legislation include retroactive immunity for the telcos who cooperated in his unlawful surveillance programs. In effect, President Bush is holding us and our families hostage, threatening to let terrorists slaughter us, unless House Democrats accede to his demand for retroactive immunity for his telco friends — and there’s video ransom note at gop.gov.
Since I’m on a very extended sabatical as a “meaningful” commentator, all I got for you are pictures of the world’s cutest puppy - perpetual moments of zen. This is Che’s “Blue Magnum” pose:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com.....a1b0_b.jpg
diebold is now promising to deliver the whole country to him, not just Ohio? Or he’s giving us advance warning that there aren’t going to be elections? (just said retain the whitehouse, didn’t say win the elections …)
7 years 9 Days 9 Hours 33 minutes
Since America Went Blind to New Terrorist Plots
November election results should hinge on two factors:
How do voters think the war is going?
Which candidate has the most believable snake oil for the economy….
You’d think that a majority will be sick of Iraq and will want to send the troops to Afghanistan as Obama suggests? Were should the troops be- that is the question.
On the economy we’ve got more tax cuts from McBush, natch- and I don’t really know what from Obama.
They reported it today, but it seems that it was during the governor’s convention. I’m confused.
That is what he said. He never said that Pukes are gonna “win”..
Here’s Obama’s outline for the economy- after a paragraph on the wonders of the free enterprise system- guess what- TAX CUTS!
“Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
Trade
Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs
Labor
Protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
Address Predatory Credit Card Practices
Reform Bankruptcy Laws
Work/Family Balance “
Here is what he said,
“I’m confident we’ll hold the White House in 2008. And I don’t want the next Republican president to be lonely, and that is why we got to take the House, retake the Senate, and make sure our states are governed by Republican governors,” Bush said.
Here’s the link:
http://blogs.reuters.com/trail.....ican-base/
I don’t really think that Clusterfuck is going to suspend the elections. He’s an idiot- but not THAT big an idiot.
“next republican president” suggests somone OTHER than Clusterfuck does it NOT?”
Maybe he realizes that it backfired on Musharraf…
let’s do be fair …
obama web page on economy
tax cuts for working and middle class, doesn’t say he’ll rescind the bush tax breaks for rich (although I’d like to see that). Then follows w/ desccription of, among other things, revisiting NAFTA and other agreements to ensure labor and env protections elsewhere and a (quite high level) list of infrastructure investments.
it’s not exactly returning control over means of production to the workers, but I don’t disagree with it …
It’s not a move that usually goes over well. Many take it personally. Works best if you wear a uniform.
it does … real question is when they admit that they’re running cheney again …
EPU, you’re back!
(but then, you knew that…)
Fair? All I did was to copy and paste the talking points from Obama’s web page. I’d conclude that he needs to get a few economists on board.
I do not expect there to be much change no matter who is next year’s occupant of the WH. Any meaningful change was removed from the candidate line up weeks ago, we are now left with candidates all financed by the same corporations. About the best we can expect is new wallpaper in the master suite and maybe new china.
why would you think that’s idiotic?
I would have thought it “idiotic” to divert the resources from afghanistan to a country he knew posed no threat
I would have thought it idiotic he brag about wiretapping without oversight
I would have thought it too idiotic he would try to “redifine” what is and isn’t torture, then order us to torture
I would have thought it too idiotic he would keep people incarverated for time unkonw with direct orders that nobody could be found innocent
so I think you give him far too much credit when you say he wouldn’t be THAT idiotic
the real idiots are us, because there he is, more brazen then ever, the more exposed the more brazen and there he is, still dictator of America
Seems a typical pattern, no?
Step 1: Demand something outrageous, unwise, heretofore illegal and/or unconstitutional. Tax cuts, civil rights curtailments, quasi-war declarations, warrantless spying… you name it.
Step 2: Congress may or may not say “no way” to the initial request, but always eventually caves in, and gives the White House a ‘temporary’ bill. Dems pat themselves on the back for putting a sunset provision on the thing and delude themselves into thinking the issue will go away.
Step 3: White House and GOP immediately begin banging the drum to insist that the temporary thing must be made permanent.
Inflation appears to be catching fire- which will probably lead to no more rate decreases from the fed. The pres leads with fiscal policy. New pres needs to decide one question up front- whether to budget for a surplus or a deficit- and if a deficit, how large?
No presidential candidate has every been honest about this question, though, and I don’t expect it to start now.
Looks you need a cow today :)
Been watching the Waxman hearing, late to this, thanks for the link to
this story, the heart of the matter to be settled in the fall.
Bet you a buck that Clusterfuck doesn’t suspend elections and that he leaves office in January 09.
What a sweet pea!
Christy and pups…why won’t the MSM ask these questions, investigate, call bullsh*t on the lies? Because it’s hard. So much easier to be Dancin’ Dave Backup or spew the RNC party Faux line or spell Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious backwards. Two news shows. Sheesh, Grandpa Charlie…if it’s too hard, retire fergoshsakes.
Back to skim comments while slurpin’ chicken soup. Byerly’s=comfort food for a “cold” day.
I like it when SOMEONE responds!
Standard Operating Procedure in that Halliburton plantation known as
TEXAS.
I printed my cow earlier and have since performed an udderectomy so mine is now a McBull. I do hope you are not offended.
Only as a non-serious puppy picture poster.
If I were a serious poster I would say that the comments about ‘08 seem very similar to the comments leading up to ‘06, and thus I’d be repeating myself if I added my thoughts (or reposted old comments from my database of EPU omniscience stored in the OMNIscience Center’s computers).
Repugs are toast, doesn’t matter who their candidate is or what their candidate says or what the media says/who they support, or who the Dem candidate is or what the media says about them.
Thanks. He is. He’s also very good natured. He’s a borkie - a bichon yorkie mix. He’s about 12 weeks old now.
Nice puppy—from a man who owns the world’s cutest dog.
Oh! How could I be offended by McBull!!! lol, good one :)
I have been subdued about Dodd’s endorsement of Obama, but after reading Glenn’s post that Christy linked to, his last update:
Obama’s acceptance of Dodd’s endorsement (in part).
This does A LOT for me.
Oops- the world’s cutest dog is takin a nap on the bed in the guest room- about to get her world’s cutest ass kicked!
w3rd