Meanwhile, this is what happened on February 23:
Serbian prosecutors said Saturday they were hunting rioters who targeted the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade leaving one person dead while a senior Serbian minister reportedly blamed Washington for the violence triggered by Kosovo's breakaway. Authorities said they had arrested nearly 200 rioters who took part in the violence on Thursday that prompted the United States to evacuate non-essential embassy staff and warn Serbia it would be held responsible. "We are collecting evidence and are identifying the culprits," Slobodan Radovanovic said in a statement, according to The Associated Press. Serbia's Kosovo minister Slobodan Samardzic said Saturday that the U.S. -- which backed Kosovo's breakaway and was among the first countries to recognize its "seccession" (SIP: secession) -- was the "main culprit" for the violence, AP reported.
What brought (what's bringing) all this about? How did we get to this point that Serbs are sacking the US Embassy in Belgrade, protesting the declaration of independence by Kosovo, a UN protectorate-country that had been more or less independent from Serbia?
And so once again as we did with Afghanistan a little while ago, we need to take a quick cruise through the history of Kosovo, Serbia, and the old Yugoslavia, and briefly analyze the background of US involvement in both Serbia and the defunct Yugoslavia, directly routed through the policies of the Bill Clinton Administration and indirectly through the involvement a NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) intervention led by Wesley Clark, the Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO from 1997 to 2000.
First off: Serbs in the old Yugoslavia have often regarded Kosovo as their historical "homeland." And this myth of foundational origins is precisely the metanarrative (or master narrative) that informed/informs all Serbian (both governments and citizens) actions toward (and reactions against) Kosovo (both the provisional government and citizens). Following is some historical background.
The old Yugoslavia comprised the seven provinces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia.
In 1946: The country was renamed Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia (FPRY), with parliamentary democracy suspended and a communist state established, led by Josip Broz Tito as prime minister. All the provinces enjoyed a great degree of autonomy under Tito.
In 1953: Tito was elected president.
In 1963: The country was renamed again asthe Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY), and again, all the provinces continued to be more or less autonomous.
In 1974: Tito became President for life after a new Constitution was passed for the country.
In 1980: Tito died, ushering a long period of political instability, worsened by growing economic crisis and nationalist unrest. In the province of Kosovo, growing Albanian nationalism and separatism in response to persecution led to growing ethnic tensions between Serbs and Albanians.
In 1989: Slobodan Milošević became President of Serbia and announced an "anti-bureaucratic revolution" in Kosovo and Vojvodina, curtailing their autonomy. Milošević and his government claimed that the constitutional changes were necessary to protect Kosovo's remaining Serbs against harassment from the Albanian majority.
In 1990: Milosevic led Serbia's Socialist Party which was founded that same year.
In 1991: The Yugoslav province of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared sovereignty.
In 1992: The breakaway province held a referendum for independence from Yugoslavia that was boycotted by the great majority of Bosnian Serbs. The turnout in the independence referendum was 63.7 percent, and 99.4 percent voted for independence. Controversy then resulted because the referendum failed to surpass the constitutional two-third required majority. But Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence in any case. Following a tense period of escalating tensions and sporadic military incidents, open warfare began in Sarajevo.
From 1992 to 2003: The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) became a federation comprising the two republics of Serbia (including the province of Vojvodina, Kosovo) and Montenegro.
From 1996–1999: Conflict began between Serbian and Yugoslav security forces and the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), an ethnic Albanian guerrilla group. The US then held an "outer wall of sanctions" on Yugoslavia which had been tied to a series of issues, Kosovo being one of them. These were maintained despite the Dayton Agreement to end all sanctions. The Clinton Administration claimed that Dayton bound Yugoslavia to hold discussions with Ibraham Rugova (the President of Kosovo) over Kosovo.
In 1997: Milosevic became President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
In 1999: War began between Yugoslavia and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and ended that same year after NATO's heavy aerial bombardment of Belgrade. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia took place during the Kosovo War. Its legality and legitimacy was and is highly disputed. The legitimacy of NATO's bombing campaign in Kosovo has been the subject of much debate. NATO did not have the backing of the United Nations Security Council because the war was opposed by permanent members, China and, in particular Russia, who had threatened to veto any resolution authorizing force. NATO argued that their defiance of the Security Council was justified based on the claims of an "international humanitarian emergency."
Following the Kosovo War, the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 placed Kosovo under the authority of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), with security provided by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR), and legally reaffirmed Serbia's sovereignty over the region and committed the UN Member States to its territorial integrity.
In 2000: Milosovic resigned the Yugoslav presidency amid demonstrations, following a disputed presidential election in September 24, 2000.
In 2001: Milosovic surrendered to the JSO special operations unit in time to avoid forced arrest. This put Serbia in compliance with an American deadline; he had to be arrested on April 1 for aid monies to be released. The warrant had previously been made on suspicion of corruption, abuse of power, and embezzlement. These were domestic charges. The Serbian investigation into Milošević faltered for lack of hard evidence, prompting the Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Đinđić to send him to The Hague to stand trial for alleged war crimes instead.
Also in 2001: The Provisional Institutions of Self-Government (PISG: the local administrative bodies in Kosovo) was established by the ('UNMIK') in Kosovo under the terms of UNSCR 1244. That resolution, which ended the Kosovo conflict of 1999, provided for an interim international administration for Kosovo that would establish and oversee the development of 'provisional, democratic self-governing institutions.
(Meanwhile, between 2001 and 2008, while the United Nations was doing all this for Kosovo, the two-term Bush Administration did practically next to nothing to help Kosovo, distracted by the War on Terror and the [useless] War in Iraq. If the Bush administration had helped Kosovo achieve independence sooner, then this might have been prevented:
In 2004: In March, Kosovo experienced its worst inter-ethnic violence since the Kosovo War. The unrest in 2004 was sparked by a series of minor events that soon cascaded into large-scale riots.)
In 2008: The European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX KOSOVO, a deployment of European Union (EU) police and civilian resources to Kosovo, established a mission foreseen under the Ahtisaari Plan: a rule of law mission that is a continuation of international civil presence in Kosovo envisaged by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244. The mission includes 2000 police and judicial personnel, and began a four-month deployment process beginning February 16 2008.
In 2008: After UN-sponsored negotiations failed to reach a consensus on an acceptable constitutional status, Kosovo's provisional government unilaterally declared independence from Serbia on February 17.
Which brings us to the present point.
And this is what happened February 24:
Filed at 7:32 a.m. ET
BELGRADE, Serbia (AP) -- The U.S. Ambassador is warning Serbia's leaders to prevent future violence against diplomatic missions.
Ambassador Cameron Munter says he's angry about riots that damaged the U.S. Embassy last week. He has told The Associated Press in a Sunday interview that he expects the government to make certain it doesn't happen again.
So now that Kosovo has declared unilateral independence: Now what happens from here on end?
In spite of the delay and distraction we pointed out above--although US support, going back to Wesley Clark during the Clinton Administration, has never really been in doubt--the Bush Administration quickly recognized Kosovo as an independent state. George W. Bush said: "The Kosovars are now independent."
Most European Union members have also recognized Kosovo, not surprising since the EU in general has been mainly responsible for setting up guidelines for how Kosovo should govern itself, guidelines that Kosovo has accepted--the EULEX KOSOVO and the Ahtisaari Plan mentioned above in 2008.
But there are are a few holdouts among some EU members: Cyprus, Romania and Slovakia--and Spain, perhaps thinking of its own separatist Basque movement.
Russia has always opposed independence for Kosovo, saying that there should be an agreement with Serbia before independence--but also perhaps thinking of Chechnya.
And China also has always opposed independence: again not surprising, perhaps given its irredentist claims over Taiwan.
Meanwhile, Taiwan favors independence for Kosovo--not surprising there, perhaps thinking of its own independence from mainland China.
Perhaps one would notice a pattern among all these countries opposing independence for Kosovo: each is thinking of its own ethnic minority group (like the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo): Allowing independence for Kosovo (ethnic Albanians) would set a precedent that might then comeback to haunt--even bite--them...
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Aloha, Biodun!
This will take a while to read.
AP - In an about-face, Senate Republicans on Tuesday agreed with Democrats to advance an anti-war bill because they said the debate would give them time to hail progress in Iraq.
My friend from Hungary says the rioters were drunk soccer thugs.
Aloha to you too…
I am tempted to exclaim I trust nothing that comes outta the mouths of any Bush Administratin appointee.
“The U.S. ambassador to Serbia expressed outrage Sunday at rioters who set fire to the American embassy in Belgrade and demanded that Serbian leaders prevent any more violence against diplomatic missions.”
Whatever gets the troops out of there. Declare victory and come home. Then what will McBush run on?
One point that seems to be under-reported is the fact the Embassy was already ‘evacuated’ prior to the mob’s appearance… Hmmm…
There may well have been some there, which wouldn’t
surprise me. But what also wasn’t surprising and was outrageous, IMHO, is that the Serbian Police stood by and did nothing while all this was going on…
Yea, typical BS.
Roger
I mean, whatever one might think of US policy, it’s wrong to attack a country’s embassy, which is considered part of the territory of that country…
Why was the Embassy already evacuated? Did they get a courtesy call from (?), or did they have a hunch, or was the CIA on the scene?
George W. Bush has this fantasy that he is going to play the “High Noon” sheriff on the world stage. Well George, like everything else in your miserable life, you have failed. They may buy your cheap act in Crawford. But that’s about it. Ronald Reagan, your stated number one hero, was a far better actor than you have been as prez. Mr. Reagan knew who to bully. Recall Grenada? You Mr. President have succeeded in one thing however. You are one of the lamest of lame ducks.
I’m for that.
Yep they were…in Belgrade and even in other “hostile” countries like Iran…
Embassies have a long history of being bugged and spying on and in each other’s countries. This has compromised the purpose of an embassy and makes it vulnerable to attack.
Do you think we’ll ever get over the idea that the United States has a ‘right’ to be the world’s policeman?
I think President Obama will address this issue properly.
In the very early 70’s I had a “Comparative Communist Systems in Eastern Europe” course from a renowned poli sci prof. His predictions of Yugoslavia after Tito were exactly right but happened slower than he thought. These some folks that really don’t like each other.
Chimpy didn’t fail in Kosovo: He simply didn’t do much of anything. The UN did most of the work, aided in the end by the European Union…
don’t forget the role of the cia and british forces in supplying and training the kla. and the role of oil pipelines and (before iraq) the role the conflict had in justifying the building of Camp Bondsteel (prime contractor krb).
i don’t know what really happened in the former yugoslovia ,but i sure looks more complicated than what we’ve been told. here’s jeremy scahill being interviewed on democracy now! last week:
Biodun - What is your opinion of the CIA presence in the embassy that played a role in the attack by the people? I have a hard time with the story that claims it was just a few drunks.
These some folks that really don’t like each other.
Especially between the Serbs and the Kosovans, and between the Serbs and the Bosnians. See a pattern here? Bosnians and Kosovans are mainly Muslim….
I don’t think it was “just a bunch of drunks” they were just the shock troops.
You’re right, selise. Thanks for that background…
Yup
President Bush talks up Democracy. Is that what his pal Putin (”I can do business with this man”) thinks too? Is this what bonds Bush and Putin? Their love of liberty and freedom?
The CIA had absolutely no role in the Serbian attack of the embassy. They were there to protect Americans and American property–pace my point at 12…Look, this is one incident you can’t blame on the CIA…
It is so easy to ferment unrest among peoples who share a small space and don’t like each other. The CIA has a lot of practice in this tactic. But why? There is a greater reason I can only speculate. Any ideas?
that’s why i have such a hard time understanding what’s going on there now… i don’t have a handle on the history beyond the lies we’ve been told.
sadly, in the 90’s i wasn’t paying much attention - and even if i’d tried, i wouldn’t have had access to the kind of material i do now. thank the goddess for the toobz.
Who really knows? There’s no love lost between these two lately…
Yes. And Bush hasn’t failed in solving the Palestinian-Israeli situation. He simply has done basically nothing. But he is taking care of business in Iraq. ;0)
None at the moment…*g*
Russia does have a lot of oil.
Any chance the U.S. didn’t foment anything here?
Biodun - See, that’s what happens when an organization has a long nasty history of inciting unrest. It’s like the boy who cried wolf. So, that once it was the truth but who would believe him. Even your truth becomes suspect.
tell me, wasn’t the KLA an islamic terrorist organization? and wasn’t it funded by the wahhabist saudi regime? and didn’t it became comprised of many of the mujahhedin from the afghan war[i.e., al fresco]?
even more to the point didn’t the KLA finance its terror by becoming the european entrepot for afghan northern warlord controlled opium[specifically gulbeddin hekmatyr]?
and didn’t u s forces participate in shipping that afghan produce to kosovo, as well as weapons?
in short, didn’t the usg use the kla as a front for a destabilising war in serbia? wasn’t the usg a co-conspirator/enabler of jihadi terrorism in the balkans? and doesn’t that mean that the kla was an agent of state-sanctioned terrorism?
The world is ready to perhaps break out into the “Last War”. Our economy is a shambles. People are hungry here and abroad. Good Gawd.
say what
Ah, but one thing is clear: The US had very little to gain from the breakup of Yugoslavia, AFAIK…This happened as one of those so-called natural developments that the cold war froze up. So it was only a matter of time after the end of the cold war that history would once again resume its course, and then this would happen…
Actually, I think you’re approaching it from the wrong angle, I think somebody in the Serbian Govt. tipped off the CIA/State Dept as to the ‘rioting’…
I have no evidence whatever for any of this…Mostly speculation not supported by evidence, or assumption of facts not supported by evidence…
Yep…
Interesting alternate view here:
I too, confess to an ignorance of this area, but I distrust so much of what I’ve been told by the mainstream press.
Total OT.
Maddy, the e-mail I sent you bounced. Here’s what it said:
The book John gave me was “Yankee Nomad”, published in 1966. Alas, the photo we remember isn’t in this book. I looked on Amazon and found one titled “The World of Allah” published in 1982. I think I remember seeing that picture at a bookstore while browsing. That was probably after we had moved to the ranch.
oh, i completely disagree - we now have a puppet state, we have what at least used to be the largest military base in the world (iirc), and in a geopolitically strategic location.
permanent bases, baby. we seem to have a thing for them.
that is certainly consistent with my very limited understanding…. but as i wrote upthread, i just don’t know enough about the real history to make any judgement - other than it looks like we’ve been seriously lied to.
I believe George W. Bush to be the most irresponsible Chief Exec in my life time. Senator Obama wants to be our next president. I can’t understand why. It can’t be the money. Perhaps this man wants to lead us back on to the right track. This country is off the rails under the Republicans. In this house we support President Obama. And we will be watching tonight. Sen. Obama, if you win, we, in this home, would hope you might consider appointing the honorable Sen. Clinton to the SCOTUS?
I have no doubt they were tipped off thus the embassy was empty. My point is that often the presence of the CIA in a country, because of its history, irritates the people. This happened in Bali after the bombing. The people immediately blamed the CIA for creating unrest that brought this tragedy to them. After all, they had already been at the mercy of one coup in 1965 and at the mercy of a terrible dictator aided to power by the CIA. People have long memories.
Exactly, time and again CIA agents are outed as being embassy employees.
Jeez if you have a gripe with the USA the chances of CIA operatives working out of the embassies and consultants are 100%.
Diplomatic outposts or paramilitary intelligence centers?
Ah, but Marshall Tito was a strong ally of the US. Everyone knew that…
Selise, while we certainly have a predilection to permanent bases globally, I’ve served at a few…, but, an intact Yugoslavia would’ve allowed for more, not fewer… I agree with Biodun on that…!
Huge, bigass apologies to All for being late…
which means I’m not alltheway caught up on comments…but,
Hello Sgnt. Cawwwww…Raven.
I heard on the radio from someone, maybe at the Embassy, that there were 15 - 20 year olds, drunk is what he said who did the fire shit.
He said that for the most part, the rest of the demonstration was, in fact, civil.
(I Will try to catch up, thanks for the indulgences.)
you beat me to it - i was also going to link to george kenney… who, in addition to jeremy scahill have first hand info that should at least be considered.
here is a recent interview george did on kosovo:
but we didn’t have the puppet gov to go with our bases.
Do you think George W. Bush shooting his mouth off the other day regarding these events helped matters?
Sgt! Nope, E-4 was the highest I got, twice!
At one time we really liked Saddam too.
p.s. i haven’t served at any military bases. but i lived on one for a couple of years as a kid. does that count?
biodun says in the post-”First off: Serbs in the old Yugoslavia have often regarded Kosovo as their historical ”homeland.”
And this myth of foundational origins is precisely the metanarrative (or master narrative) that informed/informs all Serbian (both governments and citizens) actions toward (and reactions against) Kosovo (both the provisional government and citizens). Following is some historical background.”
this is supposedly one of the major points of contention, however, i’m not ’getting’ this point about ’historical homeland’………they are a minority in this area.
what are their historical claims?
“The word balkanization is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other.[1][2] The term has arisen from the conflicts in the 20th century Balkans. The first balkanization was embodied in the Balkan Wars, and the term was reaffirmed in the Yugoslav wars.”
This place is a bunch of warring tribes who are fighting over religions and territory. We have no business there and we certainly don’t need to be flooding the region with weapons as we always do.
They seem to be set on fighting till the last man is standing.
Why are we there again?
Thanks selise.
The more I see the outcome of the West sticking their noses where they don’t belong, the more of an isolationist I become.
My major worry about BO is that “humanitarian interventions” will escalate, and many more Kosovos will result.
No he wasn’t.
How’s that? I fail to see it…
It’s all too much for me. I’m going to fix supper. Fried catfish and fried okra. More health food.
Pretend I’m Blonde. Which I AM!
E4 = ?
He was a non aligned dictator - who didn’t want to be the USSR’s puppet. He was not in our sphere of influence.
I have a couple of questions. Many of my collaegues on the left accepted many of the claims from the Serbians about what was occurring without critical evaluation…amongst these were the standard “Islamic terrorism” associations of the KLA, and the claims that the US was supplying weapons to them.
Another throughout the whole issue of the breakup of Yugoslavia was the desire to run a pipeline for oil through the region. I could never understand how this would be possible or more feasible than simply running fuel through the Bosporus of through surronding countries. One would have to take over Serbia, for example. Do you have any idea where such ideas came from?
Precisely: That’s why I called it a myth…*g*
The family serves alongside…! ;-)
Because the Serbs are now going to go to war with Kosovo and people will die.
The we have to take sides and arm the one we support some more weapons can be sold and more people can die. Then we can drop bombs on civilians to stop all the blood shed.
Usual MO
Don’t know how much of this is true and if it’s only speculation (like everyone else I’m in the dark) but TENC has had many articles over the years based on what Albert said
http://emperors-clothes.com/yugo.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/yr/index.htm
Specialist or Corporal, depending on your job…!
Yugoslavia was the creation of Churchill and Roosevelt in a deal cut with Tito, a firewall, if you will, to Stalin.
Serbs are pissed off about Kosovo but it will end up being split up again with the the Northern part of Kosovo ending up with Serbia. Kosovo has no economy to speak of and the Muslims there will only survive with extraordinary amount of foreign aid.
What Serbs are really pissed off about is that Belgrade was bombed during the Wesley Clark and Clinton raids. Most Serbs I know say the bombing only happened because of Monica Lewinsky. That is an accepted point of view.
Clinton and Clark went slightly beserk bombing bridges over the Danube and Sava (sp) rivers which was totally unnecessary from any strategic point of view. Then Clinton sent smart bombs into Belgrade with the intent of destroying government buildings but there was substantial collateral damage. None of effects or process of the bombing was covered by US MSM.
Clark got into a confrontation with the Russians at Pristina in Kosovo which the Commanding British General finessed. Wesley Clark’s main supporter appear to be the Clintons and no one else.
The Clintons are treated with absolute derision in Serbia. I find Serbs to be rough on the outside but kind and generous in most ways. And their protection of Jews during WWII is legendary.
The Kovovars and no more terrorists than the Kurds. People who want their freedom usually take up arms to get it.
1776
samatha powers is very smart and very persuasive to democrats. i can just see her (as BO’s foreign policy “expert”) getting the left of center folks all pysched to go bomb the living shit out of someone.
I love fried okra. One of my favorites. I want to go to your house for dinner.
gotta listen to the experts in the interview. *g*
except, in my case, no one was exactly “serving”.
my dad worked for bell labs, and they were prime contractor.
As I daid in down the page, we need to work with the united nations and THEY need to act. We cannot be the world’s cop.
People without property fear cops.
People with property want them to protect their turf.
We seem to back all the unpopular leaders. That our rep.
That’s pretty cool!
i’d be willing to more readily consider intervention iff:
1) americans were better educated and experienced about other places/languages/cultures
2) we give up our exceptionalism and our supremist thinking.
3) our leaders stop lying to us.
LOL.
it was actually pretty warm.
little island in the south pacific called kwajalein (iirc, a little over 2000 miles sw of your location)
But…but…didn’t the smart bombs hit the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade? Oops! “Now don’t get upset Cheng, it was an accident. Cheng, you’re getting upset. The smart bomb wasn’t so smart because of human error. We’ll pay you, Cheng.”
None whatever…again, you’re asking the right questions…*g*
What she said
It’s true.
Google Camp Bondsteel
To get through the Bosporous you need shallow draft tankers which would mean in order to get the oil out you would have hundreds of tankers going through a day to get the same amount of oil through, as the pipeline
BTW, the pipeline was negotiated by James Baker (Bush family consigliere)
al jazeera tv too.
but that was admitted to be on purpose.
from nuts…or from people who didn’t know what the f*ck they were talking about…
She’d be very suspectible to humanitarian intervention, and she’s not the only advisor. There’s that “let’s get Soviets to invade Afghanistan” Brzenzski on tap too. And BO is a complete neophypte in foreign policy matters. His intervention in Kenya has definitely postponed a compromise between the two sides.
The Chinese Embassy was/is a bright green glass builing which was then located in what is called New Belgrade. Literally, you could not miss it. But Clinton, guess what, bombed the Chinese Embassy claiming it was a mistake. Tenet, the fool, was then sent out to explain that the CIA had used an out of date tourist street map in their data base and gave the wrong info to DOD. That is what Tenet said, honestly. And these are the folks who claim Obama does not have the experience to be Commander in Chief
Who knows what the truth is? But the Clintons offered an assenine explanation.
Tenet was brought into the White House by the Clintons and then sent to CIA.
i try not to accept any views uncritically - but i know someone who was there, and he told me about the kla bombing their own people so they could blame in on the serbs.
as i said upthread, i don’t know enough to judge what is really true - but there are clearly so many lies, no way am i going to dismiss anything yet either.
amen.
that (among other things) i why i couldn’t get excited about either BO or HRC.
Suharto may have also been aided to power by Sukarno. One of the prolonged mysteries of that coup was precisely why Suharto’s National Guard were called back from all leaves two days before the original coup attempt (the one initiated by the Communists and the Presidential Guard). Although the Young Pioneer movement was supposedly also going to be armed at some point it’s very doubtful that Sukarno could have consolidated power with just that base against the military. The Communists successfully killed many of the Generals and high ranking officers (streets all over Indonesia are named after these “heros”) but the most odd thing was that Suharto wasn’t on their list.
Suharto was Sukarnos’ military strategist in the efforts to absorb Malaysia -sending Communist cadres into Sarawak and Sabah and actually mounting a naval landing on the Johor coast. Thus it’s quite likely that Suharto was “in on” the initial coup where Sukarno was trying to consolidate his power against pro-Western generals. Apparently, at the critical moment Suharto either balked, or seeing a door open to gain power for himself, shifted sides.
The poor Balinese had no stakes in this Byzantine manipulation, and very few were Communists. In fact the lists that the British and the US gave Suharto contained only about 1000 names of labor union organizers, politicians, writers, newspaper editors, etc. And it’s almost certain that the Generals already knew most of these people; Suharto, after all worked with them in the Malaysian insurgency. But the bloodbath that followed allowed anyone with a grudge to kill their enemies by calling them “Communist”- Chinese landlords and shopkeepers owed for credit or who had title on a property, Balinese businessmen who were competitors, one peasant could get the land of another by accusing them of being a communist, it ended up with between a quarter million and a half million slaughtered. And Suharto could get away with anything simply by asserting that he was anti-Communist…he had proof in the numbers of sympathisers ruthlessly killed in the country. And for the Brits and the US that pesky Sukarno was now isolated and made only a figurehead.
Hey, hey, now.
here is a link posted in the comments of a post at the end of the link that kevinp posted at 44 which i am posting now……./s that’s the kind of talk that went on to try and heal these countries.
one of them is described in this link. (that was posted at the end of the link that kevinp linked at 44 which i am now linking) : )
http://nation-building.blogspo.....ation.html
good post biodun
everybody have a great evening…..
yep…check your inbox…
Thanks my friend…appreciate it.
one last thing—
the fussing about was the embassy tipped off?
um, i wouldn’t need to be tipped off, they were making an announcement that EVERYONE knew was not going to go over well, don’t think i’d need to be tipped off to get the hell outta dodge for a day or two.
this thing didn’t happen overnight, and they knew when it did that the shit would hit the fan.
John…isn’t that pipeline running South of Kosovo…from Bulgaria through Macedonia and Albania? The only logic I can see in arguing that might be important isn’t that they were trying to take over Serbia and Kosovo…but that a massive diaspora of Kosovars would destabilize the region, resulting in war spreading into Macedonia and Albania.
That’s not at all what my friends were arguing…it was all about taking over “Serbia” (by which they meant Greater Serbia).
OT, and hi everyone! I just got a chance to hear Dodd’s Obama endorsement speech. He seemed to emphasize the word significant in the part about here having a significant roll in the future. Hope he meant VP.
The vitriol which was being directed at the US and Kosovo and the UN was pretty strong in the speeches from various ministers of the Kostanica faction of the Serbian government. With the demonstrations obviously going to be massive I think that a general evacuation was wise. It wouldn’t take a CIA agent to know that things could get out of hand quite easily if there wasn’t adequate protection.
It’s important to realize that not only the US Embassy was attacked, so were other Embassys (including the Czech and Hungarian embassies) as well as UN offices and lots of stores were also burned and looted (some like MacDonalds symbols of the US, but others were simply local businessmen who ran Department stores). A lot of these folks represent the groups that are looking towards eventual membership in the EU.
In regards to the soccer hooligan comments, it’s not uncommon that particular quasi-political/miltant factions in Europe and elsewhere gravitate to a particular Football team and that the wars are played out on the pitch and off it in the streets and bars and “turf” of their rivals. Some clubs are definitely supported by Nationalist elements, others are backed by Socialists, or Anarchists or varying colors. Nothing really like it in US Sports…it’s like an extreme version of the 49ers (wine -and-cheese crowd) vs. Oakland Raiders (blue-collar) rivalry exponentially raised.
Kosovo is to nationalist Serbs as Jerusalem and the West Bank (aka “Judea and Samaria”) is to many Israelis. It’s bound up in the founding myth of the people, the ancient land that was once taken away, then reconquered, and now on the verge of being taken away again. The oldest Serbian Orthodox shrines (those that haven’t been destroyed) are there.
dmac - You are probably right on. I had young friends living in Java in 1965 and when things started to “feel weird” they headed down to Bali for a wee vacation until the unrest blew over. While in Bali the military rounds them up and takes them to Gianjar telling them they had no need for concern. Well, that really alerted them and they headed off the island with an Australian bush pilot. That was an unintended tipoff.
If you can keep your head when all about you is losing theirs, chances are you just don’t grasp the situation!
For some reason I seem to remember that the Camp is about 10 miles from the AMBO pipeline (could be wrong)
And as far as all the geo-political internal-state political feuds going on … I’m getting an ice cream headache trying to figure out who did what to whom 5,000 years ago and why they now have to avenge whatever happened
The failed Vatican policy of separating Kosovo from Serbia under Austro-
Hungarian auspices prompted the assisination of the Archduke Ferdinand in
1914 lurks behind all the modern interpolations of this US gamble… Austria went first this time as well. Black Lamb, Gray Falcon…
This is for people who believe in conspiracy theories…
terrorism. always an interesting word. highly-charged. some would say that the kla was an insurrectionist, independence-seeking organization. others would call it a band of opium-trafficking, jihadist terrorists.
going back into the history of the european colonies of the north western hemisphere, i think that the lackeys of george 3 called the colonial insurrectionists terrorists. today, we call them ”sons of liberty”. and perhaps they were. but i recommend that you read both the federalist and the anti-federalist papers. it might add some dimension to the american notion of ”liberty”[i think of adams and his alien and sedition acts].
some american israelis and some israel israelis label the palestinians as terrorists. i do not. i identify them as a group of people seeking redress of legitimate grievances[seeking the removal of the iaf boot] without the arms and financial support such the usg accords the imperial, zionist state of israel.
let us now consider spain. eta considers the consolidation of basque territory into franco’s fascist spain to have been an act of gangster theft. for decades eta has been trying to become divested of spain. but spain will not allow it. is eta a terrorist organization? or is it similar to our freemason lodges that repudiated the house of hanover?
let us consider hamas. today the israeli gov and the usa label it a terrorist organization. but, decades ago, the israeli gov created it. as a counter to the palestinian organization that was the invention of the us intell services - yassir arafat and the plo.
going back into time, i think of cheddi jagan and the jfk regime. jagan was a socialist. upon his rise to power, he was labeled the leader of a terrorist state….and the kennedy regime went after him just as they went after fidel.
but, in the important scheme of things, i insist that you recognize that, more often than not, white is black, black is white. consider operation gladio - still extant - still engaged in false flag terror ops throughout europe.
one aspect of all of this that has always fascinated me is how ignorant north amerikans are. i think that this has a lot to do with the reality that the usa’s popular media is stringently state-staffed and controlled.
as an example, contrast the london papers prior to the ghwbush invasion of iraq to the us papers. consider their stories of bcci, matrix churchill.
wake up. smell the coffee. by and large, what you think is reality is fiction.
oh, and i forgot the ira. and who was really running it. MI5. THE SAXE COBURG GOTHA’S SECRET SERVICE.
though not reported widely in the usa, in the uk it has been learned that mi5 agents infiltrated sin fein and became the most obstreperous advocates of terror tactics.
i have always asserted that the “windsor” secret police created the ira, ran the ira.
this is a reality that needs recognition. joseph conrad wrote about this decades ago. in his early novels that should be acknowledged as the first spy novels. along with erskine childers, riddle of the sands.
wow what a bad-ass blog. Biodun, you’ve really made me think with this one. Thankyou.
I was mistaken about James baker being involved in the AMBO pipeline - it was the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline I was thinking of. James Baker’s law firm is called Baker and Botts; below is a ppt presentation on some of their interests in the Caspian Sea region and Asia including Baku-Ceyhan
http://www.bakerbotts.com/file.....oolsby.pdf
and more from the NYTimes
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....wanted=all
Camp Bondsteel from The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson
http://books.google.com/books?.....V7EeQ9wfeY
I’ll first respond to the blog entry. You’ve generally written a nice informed article about the matter, and it is certainly good to see people wanting to learn a thing or two before they make up their minds as to serious matters like this. But allow me, being a Serbian national who knows his history to make a few corrections :)
1. You’ve written that: “The old Yugoslavia comprised the seven provinces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia.” - This is not true. The old Yugoslavia consisted of SIX socialist republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia) and TWO autonomous socialist provinces (Vojvodina and Kosovo). The problem, as perceived by Serbs is that Serbia’s provinces got promoted to Federal-level provinces with wast autonomy, including the right to secede. Weather a wast autonomy is a good thing or not is debatable, but giving the parts of Serbia (and no other republic) the right to secede and such wast autonomy that they were de facto independent is when it all began.
2. Milosevic did go overboard, but at the time it was seen as returning the provinces under Serbia’s rule. The great autonomy they enjoyed was seen as too excessive and something imposed onto Serbia by the communists.
3. The negotiations were just for show. Bush publicly promised independence to Kosovo in June 2007 ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....alkans.usa ). It is speculated that the Albanians were given the same promise off-the-record way before this. Sadly noone negotiates when they are secretly promised to get their way if the negotiations fail.
4. It is also speculated that the KLA had received training, logistic and political support from the US. One notable example is that before 1997 when the US decided to declassify the KLA as a terrorist organization KLA soldiers wore long beards and saluted with their fists clenched - which is a typical communist look and gesture. It is speculated that the KLA was “sexed-up” by US advisors to make them more appealing to the US public.
I believe that, in order to make a complete analysis it is needed to make point of historic relationships between Serbia and Albania, as well as the rise, fall and the latest rise of nationalism in Serbia, especially in correlation with issues such as Kosovo and war crimes.