BT

Fitz!

Obama was really cool the way he held his notepad down from the fanning above. Didn’t miss a beat.

Obama!!!

This is more fun than watching the UConn Huskies.

well, almost…they’re in the midst of a ten-game winning streak right now.

Being a great debater is an important qualification for the Presidency — how?

hey, I don’t want this to get lost in the epu;

talking about the lobbyists, a GREAT line for the democrats during this campaign is going to be;

“you don’t want your politicians in bed with lobbyists, they will steal law from you if you allow your politicians to lie in bed with them”

BUWHAHAHAHA

Universal Health Care!

Oh, I think I’ll run out and buy a Boeing aeroplane. Interesting the commercials on the debates, no?

Even though the line on cnn live streaming is annoying the only time it dropped down to 30 was when Hillary went negative. The attacks don’t work for her.

I know the “plagarism” charges bothers a lot of people, but I already had a couple kids today argue that one was copying because the other said it was “OK” and that made it OK.

I’m not liking it one bit.

Campbell Brown is teh suck, and should be muzzled.

Being an idiot as a debater did not seem to impair GW Bush’s ability to be an idiot as a president…

Presidents have to be good at answering tough questions from the press (at least Democratic presidents do).

Going negative isn’t designed to make people want to vote for you, it’s designed to make people not want to vote for your opponent.

Well, being a bad one is certainly a disqualifier.

See current White House occupant. My dog could beat him in a debate….

I’m a professor, you get fired for it in my profession, it’s considered highly unethical…

One candidate seems to be uplifting. And cool under pressure. The other one doesn’t.

ok Hill is Shrill

Demonstrates basic mental dexterity and the ability to think on your feet. Mostly, it is beauty contest peppered with prepared zingers in hopes of grabbing ink tomorrow. Policy is what matters.

Here comes the same attack piece we received the day before the WI primary.

One candidate seems to be willing to answer questions as asked. The other, not so much…

HRC…Xerox this!!!!: Obama’s got my vote.

yup, well I work at the elementary level and I do think Mr. Obama is setting a piss poor example for my kids.

The xerox comment was to be her zinger.

How many times has Hillary given props to Edwards tonight? Is she that worried he may support Obama?

he has class

My son the doctoral candidate said it’s not plagiarism…in academia plagiarism has a very precise definition.

It wasn’t plagiarism. Any reading of the speech makes that clear.

Aloha, Marion! Did ya read Tuesday’s Late, Late Nite thread before the Grey Lady…? *g*

shrill is a derogatory comment to make usually aimed at a woman .. it sounds quite sexist

Advice to Campbell Brown: STFU!

Nobody is gonna get a useful healthcare package out of either of these tools. Hillary is #1 in $$$$ from Big Pharma and Obama’s number one advisor on healthcare luvs him some ideas that are….well, they’d fit right into McCain’s campaign.

Back away from the bar and put down the Kool-Aide!

yup. Copying words and coopting ideas are different

yeah, and it was in the Land of MASSIVE FAIL!

Kick his ass, Hil!

try the NYT running blog, slow!

Campbell Brown has lost control of this debate.

This is good stuff on healthcare.

I’m a stickler for it, too — which is why my posts are so link-heavy. I never want to miss a credit to someone whose work may have shaped what I’ve written in any way. It’s too easy to slip up on that, so I try and document all my sources as closely as I can.

Because it’s the right thing to do. With speechwriting, though, sometimes the allusion to the feeling you get from a prior speech can be useful, and you can’t exactly insert footnotes. It’s a tough call on how to attribute — or allude in a sort of tributory way, ya know? Really close line.

The candidates have stolen control of the debate from Campbell. I kinda like this.

im sorry it doest not…KRUGMAN who is a man…..is called the Shrill one
thanks ,come again

But…but…but he’s so very, very, very cool!

bed, g’night all

So, ACitizen is backing Gravel? :)

Me too, (edit I’m a professor too) but I thought Obama’s response was great. Sometimes, there are just the best ways to say things, and you run with them- collaboration. We can debate the details of plagiarism when there’s not a live thread, but frankly, I thought this was a pretty petty attack from the Clinton campaign.

I have a difficult time on this issue of ‘lifting’ something from someone else. Is it worse than triangulating? Or better?

They don’t need no stinkin moderating…

Plagerism is stealing someone’s written words verbatim and saying that you wrote them. He never did that.

Yeah, but that’s good– they’re talking about health care, the journalists just want to start a food fight.

‘night, perris.

So, when the GOP message machine, i.e. the fax blast, has everyone mouthing the exact same words, is it “plagiarism” –

and if not, why not?

Plagiarism………the act of passing off as one’s own, the ideas or writings of another.

that’s what our policy says …

Billary, change the subject go onto something else.

I’m a professor, you get fired for it in my profession, it’s considered highly unethical…

However recycling derivative ideas in print to get tenure is not only approved but promoted. Politics and standup for that matter are not academia.

Exactly.

The 15 million figure that Hillary has copped is completel bullshit. It’s a silly figure. And Hillary would never get her plan through Congress–a fact she always omits.

EPU’d

HRC has a valid point. But shouting down the CNNoids is only a path to the Mighty Wurlitzer soundbite of destruction tomorrow

Did she have the Xerox Corporation’s permission to use its name in that matter?

I just realized that Obama is left handed. Left.

See– “Are you suggesting Obama is not ready to be CIC?”

I mean, what a dumbass question. Shut the fuck up, Jorge!

correcto

I disagree, I think it’s bullshit. Neither one of these “plans” will ever come out the way they say.

He must be a freakin’ commie!

I’m a Texan voting for Obama but Hillary was correct on the idea of universal health care. Nice exchange of ideas and glad to see Hillary tell Ms. Brown to STFU.

Right.

It wasn’t a tough call for Bill Clinton not to attribute several times in his career.

It wasn’t a tough call for Hillary Clinton to lift slogans from Obama in the last 4 months either.

That’s ridiculous and absurd.

Shut the fuck up, Jorge!

Seconded.

Plagiarism………the act of passing off as one’s own, the ideas or writings of another.

We just had a professor up for this … and this is our definition in our policy which is pretty standard

HRC “presidential leadership”? Sheeeit, she could not even get back to the Senate to talk in a forum that would have gotten coverage about telecom immunity. Neither did Obama.

Presidential? Hardly.

The devil’s in the details…!

Nah…

Donna Edwards…..Winner!

Charlie Brown….will be one….

Cindy Sheehan….

Get the picture? Congress is where we gotta take over. The White House won’t be progressive for at least 4 maybe 8 years even if McCain don’t get in.

Its photocopy now , xerox is so last century.

Ding!

Obama is one sharp cookie.

No, it’s a talking point blast fax meant to put the same words in everyone’s mouths so that the repetition gets drilled into everyone else’s brains. Keeps the whole GOP borg on the same page pundit-wise.

Can I have that in Spanish, for the Univision crowd? :)

It wasn’t a tough call for Hillary Clinton to lift slogans from Obama in the last 4 months either.

Or for both to steal from John Edwards.

So, Mrs. Clinton how do you think that Iraq vote is doing now?

When Clinton gives a speech prepared with the assistance of a speechwriter, is she passing off the speechwriter’s ideas as her own?

True … but this is a presidency … and I have really had it with having a president that uses the grey areas … that’s how we have waterboarding is not torture, guantanamo is NOT a gulag, wiretapping US citizens does not require a search warrant ad infinitum …

Or for both to steal from John Edwards.

Right the fuck on.

How will she be enforcing her mandates? She’s never said. She’s said she’ll leave that to Congress who would never pass her health care plan. And where is she pulling that 15 million figure from? It’s based on guess, not fact.

Is it just me, but does Senator Clinton appear to be angry?

Jorge looked like he wanted one or both of them to say that America should be bilingual … English & Spanish, did I read that right ?

The choice I see. Do what is best or what feels good.

What’s a “tolly bon?? LOL

Smart,and Smooth,and class act,ill buy

No hablo Espanol!

Absolutely! I agree.

That’s why I want to know why it’s “plagiarism” if two Democrats share the same ideas and use the same phrases, with one explicitly encouraging the other to speak the same way.

It’s not quite a message machine, but it’s a beginning.

MHO.

Obama pretty much has the is he ready to be CIC on day one down pat – being against the Iraq War II is quite huge.

He then lists many other judgment calls – pretty good I think.

We’re going from Obama lifting a few phrases to waterboarding? Seems like a stretch and more.

Yea, and when they take office they just print up the new health program rules and issue them, right?

“I’ve shown the judgement to lead”

uh-huh. Puhleeze.

Try cc2.

a decorated batshit insane looooooooooooooose cannon

Probably closer to the correct pronunciation ;)

That’s what I’m talkin bout.

That’s ridiculous and absurd.

what? that kids are using the argument that its ok to copy each other if its OK with both of them?

I agree. I hated to have to settle that argument today… I work with all minority kids and they admire Obama. I want to keep it that way.

Well… speech writer’s are hired to write words that reflect the candidates’ ideas and just beef up the wording… like marketing … I dunno if it’s unethical, but it is certainly a lot better if you could write your own speechs… however, you look back in history, very few presidents ever did that … but I admire Lincoln who wrote the gettysburg address more than I would Reagan who just read Peggy Noonan’s speeches like the actor he was….

hello from austin

are y’all impressed with these moderators?

John King praising the surge. STFU!

Time to knock down the “Surge is Working!” meme, Hillary.

old coastie, what is the piss poor example?

indeed

Smack down on John. “I think you forget an important premise of the surge…” Good on her.

Seemed to work for Shrub…! ;-)

are y’all impressed with these moderators?

You owe me a keyboard…

{cleaning coffee from my monitor}

She’s blaming the Iraqis, of course.

A thought-
None of them are going to do what they say. They can’t. Either the Congress will insist on doing things it’s way, or the Mighty Wurlitzer will stop it (remember Harry & Louise?). That being so, the question becomes: Who seems to have the best philosophical foundation on which to base their decisions?
That person is your candidate. Can’t get hung up on specifics.

Did I say that the Clintons had never done it? No. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Everyone needs to stop being so freaking defensive about their candidate of choice. This isn’t a “my candidate is Jesus and yours is Satan” question. It’s an issue that every speechwriter has to deal with on some level for anyone for whom they write — and for the people who speak those words: is the allusion obvious enough that people know to whom you are referencing without saying “As FDR once said…” or whatever. Or are you lifting someone else’s words, even with permission, in a way that is so close it could be misconstrued as an exact copy — and if so, you definitely need to cite somehow…or allude somehow “I was having a conversation with my friend so and so…” or “I was reading so and so…”

There are conventions that you traditionally follow with this. It isn’t new for this campaign and this set of particular candidates. Just ask Joe Biden from his first Presidential run, for hell’s sakes.

But that’s already making way more of a mountain out of a very tiny molehill than we ought to make. Honestly, I cannot wait for this primary to be over so I don’t have to worry about any tiny little thing I write being utterly misconstrued by people who are a hair trigger away from jumping down someone else’s throat for failing to like their candidates blouse or choice of cola preference.

The decorated war hero that likes blonde’s?

Re: the Surge. I wonder if any of the candidates will lift Ned Lamont’s phrase about Iraq:

“Iraq won’t stand up unless we stand down.”

That one always got a huge cheer.

Withdraw the troops!

I’m a professor, you get fired for it in my profession, it’s considered highly unethical…

In academic papers, and we can easily cite that source in context. But I’ve never seen anyone perform a Shakespeare play and shout out “that phrase is from the Bible”. And it utterly screws up a speech. It’s unclear who was the originator of that material (Obama and Deval Patrick were together when Patrick presented it) and he certainly used it “with permission”.

And we both know academics constantly use materials that are “fair use” in academic, educational contexts.

Hi guys! Long time, no post. I’m really enjoying this -missed a few things reading and listening.
I like that thery’re not mudslinging–hope HRc noticed the boos when she tried to push the “Xeroxing” thing. Have to admit, I’m not clear on the details of this supposed plagiarism” charge, but I like his “silly season” response.

All the comments about Campbell Brown – gotta agree. Why is she ev en allowed to cover politics, let alone moderate a Dem debate?
BTW, here in SA, both HRC’s and Obama’s rallies/speeches were crowded with enthusiastic supporters. Two interesting columns in SAExpress-News about them. Hill’s audience mostly Mexican-American and old school pols; Obama’s, per columnist, about one-third Hispanic, one-third African-Aemrrican, one-third white. Hmmmmm. Oh, and younger, newer politicians, plus one long-time, 60-ish Cong. Charlie Gonzalez.

All these women grabbing Hillary’s hand — hope she carries Purell.

new meme
too many woman grabbing Hillarys hand

Question: Surge is working!

Clinton: dismantles the baloney. No political settlement, a**hole. (What part of this do you not understand. God save us from idiot reporters.)

You speak truth but she is correct on the idea that whatever we do has to be universal or the insurance companies game the system.

uh-huh. Puhleeze.

—–

But amoung other things no Iraq War means no dead, and an extra 1 trillion dollars….a Trillion dollar + 1,004,000 lives saved decision sounds like pretty good judgment to me.

Howdy Ma’am! Not one Iota…! 8-(

well, you may think it’s a stretch but to me it’s just a bigger example

Your favorite candidate sucks, of course. *G*

Christy, didn’t I read someone else say that somewhere else? :)

RICH blondes

HRC:

It is not in the interest of the Americans or Iraqis to have us there…

So, now let’s talk about repudiating that original vote Mrs. C. Otherwise, here’s a nice big cup of STFU.

It’s the market place of ideas kiddo.

Everyone needs to stop being so freaking defensive about their candidate of choice.
—-

Ding.

And if Obama wins everyone is not a sexist, and if Cliton wins everyone is not a racist. Though if McCain wins everyone is a zombie.

sadlyyes, here’s your coke.

it’s the passing it off as your own … you don’t need to cite “I have a dream” because folks know the source, but this speech clearing looked like it was his … he passed it off as his, not a shared idea… there’s a difference to me

Obama: surge: tactical victory on strategic blunder.

Pepsi lovers suck!

(high fructose corn syrup)

Bull

the surge is working …how?

A zombie, but with a mistress.

I have this tinsy-winsy nagging problem. Hillary voted to attack Iraq.

if McCain wins every one will mostly likely be a victim of some kind of war or violence eventually

I guess John King hasn’t looked at Muqtada al-Sadr on the verge of calling off the cease-fire and striking lately. Maybe he should watch another network.

Al-Sadr Threatens to End Cease-Fire

LOL!!!

Very good! I may repeat that, with your permission, of course. ;-)

Talk about words:

Xerox was not HRC’s word, I’m sure. It was tacky and undignified. I’m sure her stupid advisors told her to say it. That, and the condescending comments that followed…just finished me off. Invent your own words Hillary…since that is what this whole issue has come down to. BO writes most of his speeches…do you?

I’m going to drink a beer and a shot and STFU. *G*

I have this tinsy-winsy nagging problem. Hillary voted to attack Iraq.

And then supported it until mid-2006.

Can you Digg it?

There has been no real show of either judgement or leadership (that I can discern) from either of these two. Just Ego and the rising hubris of entitlement to the job.

Campbell Brown sure takes a lot of breaks.

Yes, CHS, primaries are nasty little dances. I think we have two outstanding candidates who are far superior than he who sits on the throne now, including his good buddy Dubya, and the double-talking staight-shooting bastid standing in the wings.

Lighten up people. America will win the next general election.

i owes ya

What about cooperative materials. Patrick and Obama both cooperate to create speech materials. In that regard Obama used two words “Just words” (actually Patrick said “Only words”).

Or are you arguing he should have pointed out who said “All men are created equal” IN his speech…sort of defeats the idea that these concepts are more powerful than any singular time period.

Obama points to $12,000,000,000 spent on the Iraq war every month.

Their specific health care plans are both meh. Better than what we’d get with a Rethug, but I can’t say much more than that. But Clinton has this history of wanting to be secretive and I don’t like that. In either case, we’re going to have to push hard on the progressives in Congress if we win the White House.

sorry, i consider it co-opting some one else’s ideas and putting it forth as your own … you have a right to disagree

I’m running out to the store to pick up some Clean Coal.

The Zombie Mistress Cometh!

How’s that for a horror flick name?

I have this tinsy-winsy nagging problem. Hillary voted to attack Iraq.

And then supported it until mid-2006.

Not to mention Kyl/Lieberman.

the fukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkin elephant in the room

Hey, I live in the state that supplies that!

I idea is to get out of Iraq.

All men are created equal is in the public domain

Just stay inside the lines.

Hillary is impressive and smart. The media let us know that she must “take him down” tonight. She must stop him. her campaign has worked on the line to be repeated tomorrow
(I think it is the xerox one.)by the talking heads.
So the competition is set up before the thing started.
I want both to give their ideas and go on campaigning.
I hate feeling this nervous.

Now I understand why Campbell Brown gets to moderate — she’s getting her own program, against Olbermann. Bless her heart.

ROFL

((( TSF )))

Donut anyone?

For the Obama v Clinton cage-match, can’t we jut toss a coin, winner take all so we can get on with kicking McVain’s Zombie Woof ass…

That’s gonna turn into more than a full-time job, and the sooner begun, the better.

I think Cindy McCain produced quite a bit of that for us last night. Brick shaped.

NEW YORK (CNN) — Columbia University said Thursday it has sanctioned for plagiarism the African-American professor on whose office door a noose was found last fall.

Madonna Constantine, professor of psychology and education at the university’s Teachers College, was not dismissed, the university said.

Thursday’s announcement came after an 18-month investigation, conducted by the law firm of Hughes Hubbard and Reed, said Marcia Horowitz, a Teachers College spokeswoman.

In a report presented in December to Teachers College administrators, the firm concluded that in two dozen cases, Constantine’s published works contained language similar to passages in papers written by others, including a former teacher at the school and two of Constantine’s former students.

In a statement addressed to the Teachers College community, the 44-year-old professor said she is innocent and called the action “premature, vindictive, and mean-spirited.”

“It is my opinion that this investigation, along with other incidents that have happened to me at Teachers College in recent months, point to a conspiracy and witch hunt by certain current and former members of the Teachers College community,” she wrote.

Constantine also accused college administrators of not following due process, a charge the college denied.

“She was given a full and fair opportunity to respond to the allegations against her,” Horowitz said. “She was provided with copies of the journal works where similarities were found and was given an opportunity to explain them. All appropriate legal processes were followed.”

Constantine co-wrote the book, “Addressing Racism: Facilitating Cultural Competence in Mental Health and Educational Settings.”

The CNN moderators should ask Clinton and Obama if they agree with St. John McVain that the United States of America should torture human beings.

I suspect they would agree that we should not.

Let’s stop tearing each other down and focus our attacks on our true opposition.

ooh, can you bring back a helping of carbon sequestration and a big order of perpetual motion, too?

oooo, exectuive power… great question… back to Bush bashing, my favorite hobby

and indeed I do, this in not the ivory tower

Gee just came back from picking out a deep water oil rig but just could not find the right one so I decided on a Black Hawk Helicopter and keep my money local.

I am surprised that they have not brought up what is going on right now in Belgrade. I have an idea hoe OB would answer but i want to hear what HC might say. I what to get her answer on this.

The CW is that the debates favor Clinton, but not only has Obama become a stronger, more effective debater, the bigger – and more frequent – applause lines of the evening seem to be going for him (and add to that CNN cutting to break right after a big applause line for him twice in a row). Impressions?

In which they leveled mountains to obtain…! 8-(

Let’s stop tearing each other down and focus our attacks on our true opposition.

What he said.

Barack passes earmarks. That’s the clincher for me.

Seems like it may be time for some folks to take a deep breath and avoid insulting other commenters or those well crafted words may never appear on the thread.

Thanks

Please, Senator Obama, do not tell us about the cooperation with Tom Coburn. I want none of that in your administration, please.

Ha!

And I deliver gas compressors over there for the methane.

Hi Christy, looking forward to our next dinner. Yo, I must warn you though, I’ve gotten fat.

In academic papers, and we can easily cite that source in context. But I’ve never seen anyone perform a Shakespeare play and shout out “that phrase is from the Bible”. And it utterly screws up a speech.

Cin, as a professor who has to deal with plagiarism issues (students) I have to say your comment is so apt, and made me totally LOL. As far as I am concerned, this Obama “plagiarism” thing is a TOTAL non-issue.

She’s toast.

Obama smashed the “copycat” issue, of course people will whisper away for a few weeks until March 4th. A political speech is pretty open to re-hashing the same thing over and over amoung other things (like Hillary Clinton lifting lines from Bill Clinton).

Question: Over use of secrecy. Blah, blah, earmarks

“Dark of night” is an interesting expression to use about earmarking and lobbyists today.

No!

I know what you mean by hating feeling this nervous!

I can’t stand watching these events for that reason — the adrenaline level pumping the anxiety ain’t good for my heart now that I’m not a young thing anymore.

Mr. Dana Bash hasn’t been following the news very closely.

*US has been bombing Awakening Councils and they are getting pissed.

*Turkey is bombing the Kurds and they are getting pissed.

*Al Sadr’s people have been getting bombed and they are getting pissed.

*US troops deaths are up cause they are getting bombed.

Wake up noodle nuts.

-G

LOL !!!

((( Kirk )))

Plagiarism………the act of passing off as one’s own, the ideas or writings of another.

Ironically I’ve seen these policy statements lifted en masse from other sources without citing where they obtained them from!

Hillary is attacking Obama for “whole passages” – yet the fact is that the “passages” are from major speeches of MLK, the Constitution, etc. Obama was clearly NOT claiming credit for creating those ideas OR those phrases. There were two words, “Just words” that were paraphrased from Patrick (who used “Only words”).

Hillary has used far more, sequential and repeated words from her OPPONENTS in HER speeches. But she exempts herself in her attacks…since HER campaign isn’t “about words”.

There is a federal court order that is stopping that at the moment, at least in the Southern district where the bulk of that goes on…but that’s a conversation for a whole other thread.

Teddy San Fran said

Now I understand why Campbell Brown gets to moderate — she’s getting her own program, against Olbermann. Bless her heart

.

Against KO? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That won’t last long, if ratings still matter. I repeat, why is a person married to a partisan operative covering politics at all?
(yeah, it really is a rhetorical question, I guess)+

what does it clinch? Hers were more.

Hil: Barack supported Bush’s tax cuts.

Go Hil! Kick his ass

Granted of course. My typo was only due to moving to a darker room so please ignore that.

“cronyism” — c’mon, Hillary, talk about Vicki. You know you want to.

Ive been watching the computer not the TV so much.

umph Gaaaawwwwwd! JUST WHAT WE NEED. another idiot talking head with her own show!
oh well, i’ll never see it. i have a THING with KO.

Senator Clinton just owns the issues. Such grasp of detail is Carteresque.

McCain…never had earmarks. WTF is he talking about. I he that ignorant?

That was a joke. Yeah, I know– it was a lame joke.

you know whatever, we disagree, I consider it unethical …

Clearly a bunch of cultists:)

-G

So, was that a qualified “no” from Hillary?

nuff said *g*

Hillary has no ghostwriters speechwriters on her payroll? That would surprise me…given that there are many on her payroll. Does she credit them in her speeches?

Superdelegates are just inside baseball.

Let’s talk about the Constitution, inherent contempt, and the Unitary E.

I suppose that’s the very real up-side to having so many debates in the primary season. Allows all the candidates to hone their craft before facing off against the opposing party in the general

If Brown says “Allright” once more, I’ll, I’ll, oh, never mind.

The objective is to trounce the Republicans next November.

Just words, RBG…just words…but I would hope that commenters would heed yours…or something will have to change…

Indeed, and has looked so to me from the beginning of the event tonight.

Clinton notes that while McCain says he has never used earmarks (I suppose selling out to lobbyists doesn’t count), he has supported spending insane amounts of money on Iraq. Good answer.

Which is why we will continue to beat it to death. Just like a faculty meeting isn’t it?

There has been no real show of either judgement or leadership (that I can discern) from either of these two. Just Ego and the rising hubris of entitlement to the job.

—–

In general I do agree with you, but on this issue I have to disagree:

Iraq War II

And I think Obama -might- be better here:

Access to government (spending) information

In general yes I tend to think both kind of want to be President so its them.

No no, do it!

OMG — let it go. Can we move on from the plagiarism conversation that has gone on for way, way longer than I can take this evening? Please, I beg you. Everyone.

Let. It. Go.

Brown’s voice is sooooo condescending.

Cool, I await with bated breath…! *g*

sheeeee’s a “B”!

But it makes such good headline fodder. Unitary Executive… inherent contempt… what’re those? I wager those words will not be spoken tonight, unfortunately

It seems a lot of folks in this thread did not get the memo:

I believe it is from a HuffPo post today (sorry no link… I’ll look for one) where it is revealed that Obama has the same speech writer who wrote for Patrick… and so no big surprise that similar/same words would be employed in the same context.

So Obama didn’t copy, steal or plagiarize anything… his speech writer was lazy and used words he’d previously penned.

So will everyone just take a big breath and realize this is a NON issue… and the fact that the Clinton campaign has labeled it plagiarism is completely disingenuous and typical behavior from frantic politicians.

The thing that worries me tho is if so many relatively informed people at FDL don’t know the backstory…. then for sure the public might be duped by the lies.

Okay, we have had the amnesty question for the poor and tattered desperado’s living in the shadows. Can we get a question about amnesty for billion dollar telecommunication firms violating the constitution in broad daylight? Whatcha gonna do about it?

Yes, it will.

i already answered that …they are paid to make her ideas more eloquent … that’s a different concept… although i have to say I respect those that can write their own speeches a lot more, than those who use speech writers… again Reagan comes to mind as a great speaker of other’s speechs, Lincoln, Roosevelt wrote their own speechs! Same with Kennedy, great speech writers… but basically his ideas

Do you think that NY Times story has legs?

Sports is not an appropriate topic for this blog!

Time to go juice some oranges, allleft!

I can’t wait to go get ‘em in the general.

Ignore it?!? I hadn’t even noticed it — just your stellar concept grabbed my attention.

[Reading quickly while doing other things proves the concept that people often “see” what they expect to see on the page or on the monitor.]

well, then that just makes him look incompetant if he gives speeches that some one that works for him writes and doesn’t check them out … I wouldnt’ share that around republicans …

Obama has done the job tonight, I think. But Lahoma has asked me if I would feel comfortable voting for Clinton if the Senator receives the nomination. I told her that would be a resounding, yes.

Please, Senator Obama, do not tell us about the cooperation with Tom Coburn. I want none of that in your administration, please.
—

Agreed

i thought politics was a blood sport?

I’m taking that course now. It’s much less harsh. Plus, I enjoy hearing what the Pups have to say!

That’s the second time you’ve asked me not to put words in your mouth where I wasn’t putting words in your mouth, but instead giving examples.

My point is simply it’s disigenuous, hypocritical, and desperate of Hillary Clinton to even waste a nanosecond on Obama’s use of Patrick’s phrases when her husband lifted tons of lines from other people and she has been poaching nearly every slogan Obama came up with that has the word change in it.

I’m glad to either have missed her using the absurd phrase that she is about so–loooo—shuns in the debate.

Putting words in your mouth would happen if I attributed them to you. I’m not doing that.

I think that the plagiarism tack that the Clinton campaign wants to push is silly given the context that Obama was told to use Patrick’s characterization of famous speeches by Patrick who is working on his campaign, and it’s simply a desperate diversion from the issues.

It’s also as difficult for a speech maker to start citing as if they were writing and footnoting a thesis as you know as it would have been for you in closing argument if you used a well known slogan.

Joe Biden’s case where he lifted from Neil Kinnock was to me and to a lot of people a different situation from Obama’s. Biden adapted the context of Kinnock’s biography.

I don’t think the attempt by Clinton’s campaign to discredit Obama for using Patrick’s characterization has gone or will go anywhere for her.

Thanks for the headsup on the Maddow show. You did a great job there.

Christy, I’m sitting here wondering what kind of debate we could have had, if you and Rachel were the moderators …

Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton. Now there’s the shoo-in.

Kiddo thinks it’s getting time to unite. I agree. Goodnight wonderful people. We love you all.

L.

I missed most, can someone tell me their respective positions on health care, or provide a link. I think I heard that Obama would require parents to provide health care, that is a very bad idea, because it is not affordable now, what’s going to change, that would just add more vultures to the group already attacking us. If I miss heard I stand corrected.

McCain…never had earmarks

Hmm – now that’s a picture for making sore eyes.

In the midst of the straight ahead express, the biomechanics would be challenging.

OTOH, the refractory period may allow for sustained exposure of sufficient duration to make a palpable impression…..

Hope others chewing over this knotty problem will jump on the topic.

Barack passes earmarks. That’s the clincher for me.

Actually something like 75% of the legislative acts Hillary authored were earmarks added onto spending bills (remember the Woodstock Museum). Obama actually authored legislation that would require that any add-ons be published 72 hours in advance of a Bills final vote, and that the author of the earmark be designated on the earmark.

Do you think that NY Times story has legs?

It is a doorway to a discussion of McCain’s many other ethical lapses.

I have a difficult time on this issue of ‘lifting’ something from someone else. Is it worse than triangulating? Or better?

Is having character a requirement for being President? What if you hide your lack of character really really well?

I missed most, can someone tell me their respective positions on health care

It was a repetition of their plans. Neither is great. Clinton’s is better. Whatever Obama says his plan is not universal.

It is a doorway to a discussion of McCain’s many other ethical lapses.

Is that the one marked: “low clearance – mind your head?”

People in academia (and I’m one) sometimes forget that issues like this are dealt with in vastly different ways. Musicians legitimately crib riffs (and anonymously pay the rights holders) to the material. You don’t find that material on the album (sometimes whole songs, yes…but two words?).

Hillary has used far more material from others, OPPONENTS, in her own speeches. It was hypocritical.

The idea that Obama expressed in that speech was a rebuttal to Clintons attacks that his speeches were simply “just words”. It was the use of famous speeches (which he never claimed were his own) were “just words”.

If that idea is copyrightable or plagiarism I’d really be surprised. It seems that he was hoisting her on her own petard. I’ve heard many people say that when they heard Hillary attack they had the same reaction.

A parallel is when someone says the Theory of Evolution is “Just A Theory”…one replies with cases where the Theory is a powerful tool to explain the natural world and say “Just A Theory?”

It’s a widely used rhetorical device. I’m surprised you are unaware of it.

Is that the one marked: “low clearance – mind your head?”

Not going there because the image would require brain bleach. *g*

Let’s stop tearing each other down and focus our attacks on our true opposition.

Is that the heart of Obama’s plan to Unite America, to simply say “let’s stop tearing each other down”? What if the bullies ignore him and keep calling him nasty names? What’s he gonna do then?

The objective is to trounce the Republicans next November.

That is ONE idea. Another is to pick the best person to be president for the next FOUR year, maybe 8 years.

The thing that worries me tho is if so many relatively informed people at FDL don’t know the backstory…. then for sure the public might be duped by the lies.

There are lies of commission and lies of omission. Perhaps the worst lies have been that Clinton & Obama are the only candidates for president. Once you allow that you let the liars pick our next president. Yeah, we’ve got a problem.