![]()
As Jane noted last evening, Democrats and Republicans skirmished yesterday over the blame for allowing the misnamed Protect America Act to expire. Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell made sure everyone knew that the nation's capabilities to conduct surveillance had instantly diminished, a claim repeated by Senator Mitch McConnell and denied by Jack Reed on CNN, echoing earlier statements by Pelosi and Harry Reid. However, the Democrats' responses to the charge of an intelligence gap are not very reassuring.
Democrats are arguing that there isn't an immediate problem of a surveillance gap, because the PAA provided that surveillance programs it authorized could continue for up to a year, with some expansion of related targets. In the meantime, entirely new surveillance could begin under the traditional FISA procedures, which require a warrant either before the fact or within 72 hours after surveillance begins. In effect, therefore, Democrats are denying we have a surveillance gap but only because the PAA's warrantless procedures continue. Is that really where they want to be?
When the PAA was enacted last August, the rationale given by DNI McConnell was that a FISA court had secretly ruled that foreign-to-foreign communications, which Congress had never intended to require FISA warrants and oversight, nevertheless required such oversight if routed through US facilities. No one desired that outcome, so the original purpose of the PAA was to fix this unexpected glitch in FISA, under the assumption that the FISA's warrant and court oversight were adequate for all other foreign surveillance involving US citizens/residents. In other words, prior to PAA, Democrats apparently believed that FISA's warrant and oversight were an adequate structure for surveillance and thus made FISA the exclusive means for conducting such surveillance.
It was only the shameless fearmongering, including the false revelation that an attack might be imminent, and claims of a backlog in FISA applications that allowed DNI McConnell and the Administration to bully Congress into a wholesale gutting of FISA last August -- an action the Democrats immediately regretted and promised to amend before the PAA expired six months later. Yet here are the Democrats now defending themselves by arguing that our surveillance programs are sufficient only because the PAA's provisions can extend another year.
While much attention has been focused on retroactive immunity for telecoms, Senators Feingold, Dodd, Whitehouse and others have been fighting hard to reinstate the FISA court protections provided by warrants and independent judicial oversight. It has been a losing battle, mostly because they've been forced to use the unconstitutional PAA structure as the basis, and because they've been undermined by Senator Rockefeller and others.
If the Democrats intend to abide by the Fourth Amendment, they're going to have to change the terms of the debate. They need to stop apologizing for FISA, reaffirm its exclusivity, and return to its fundamental principles. Surveillance must be done, but it should be under court oversight, including court-approved warrants, court oversight of miminization procedures, protections for dissemination and disposal of surveillance information and full disclosure of program activities to Congress.
The purpose of FISA is not merely to provide the lawful means to exercise surveillance but also to limit the government's ability to conduct warrantless surveillance without independent judicial oversight. We have FISA because government will always -- always -- abuse its authority, exceed its bounds and expand its surveillance beyond its original designs. That means that DNI McConnell's insatiable appetite for massive spying on Americans has to be reined in, even if it means that some of the surveillance programs he wishes to pursue have to be curtailed or brought under FISC oversight.
And the next time an Administration official complains that FISA has restricted their ability to gather intelligence without court oversight, the response should be, "yes, that's what it's supposed to do. If that's a problem, prove to us that the restriction in unreasonable, but in the meantime, obey the law."
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Morning!
All of what you said sure sounds reasonable to me. How come the dem leadership still can’t figure out how to communicate the right message on this? It escapes me.
Good morning, Deb, everyone. Raining here.
Morning Scarecrow…
Just took a quick trip around Left Blogistan and everyone seems to be sleeping in this morning.
Good Morning RevDeb and Scarecrow
Snowed in in NE Iowa, Blizzard conditions. Getting to be a long winter.
Top of the morning to you Scarecrow. Taking a look at the NOAA weather site for here we were supposed to get up to a high of 56 today with rain. Right now it is registering 64. Not much rain falling. It’s Feb. 18. This continues to creep me out.
yeah anyway?
Good Morning Scarecrow,
and Biodun and RevDeb and…
Meanwhile, Ann Curry is trailing Chimpy around Africa…Yuk!
Not I/me…Been getting up “to work” at 3 AM CT…
Hi Elliott…it’s been a while…*g*
Morning pups. I agree that the Dems have to change the terms of the debate. Maybe just reading out the Fourth Amendment to the assembled press each morning might be a good start. A lot of people don’t know it exists.
My own feeling is: Chimpy’ll draw a line in the sand with the House on this FISA business. He sure looked (and sounded) pissed before he “took off for Africa” on his safari…
Scarecrow,
The one other item I would add to the framing is exclusivity. FISA must be made to be the only law for governing the collection of foreign intelligence. It must be made clear that the president cannot rely on powers believed to be inherent in Article 2 of the Constitution or derived from the AUMF in Iraq, executive orders, opinions from OLC or signing statements when the revision becomes law.
OT–
Breaking…
A few minutes ago Chimpy says (again on his African safari) that the “Kosovars” are now “indipindint”…
Looks like I’ll be inside a while this morning. Radar is showing a line of heavy thunderstorms headed for North Florida.
And what exactly will he do? For some reason I’m having a hard time seeing how the next steps play out.
Chimpy throwing a tantrum like a 2 year old when he gets back?
The House writing another bill that gives him most if not all of what he wants?
The House sitting on it waiting for some kind of quid pro quo that will never happen?
The Kitty in the Senate standing up and huffing an puffing? And Harry bowing down to him?
I just don’t know.
“surveillance gap” lol the GOP taking framing lessons from Dr. Strangelove again?
Happy burn an effigy of Bush day!
i find it a little confusing because feingold has said that there was a real problem that the PAA addressed. but holt (who, along with feingold are the only congress critters i’m inclined to trust on this) does not say that, and indeed voted against the PAA extension.
All of the above, RevDeb…You said it all! *g*
Yes, I agree FISA should be exclusive. I’ll fix that as soon as I finish my Cheerios.
with berries?
how’s the cold?
Scarecrow lays this out so clearly and gives us all thoughtful ideas on how to discuss this within our own spheres of influence — so, I say pass it on so others will, digg it
I’m completely over the cold. I got a nasty flu instead — been dragging for four days and brain is just starting to function in between the fizzy things. I probably got this from FDL.
I wish. Banana.
FDL is a hotbed of viri of various flavors. Woudn’t be surprised if you got it here. We can be infectious.
I’m coming down with a cold. I blame the Clenis.
Yep. Yesterday, perhaps? *g* (Thanks much, BTW..)
no, this is NOT whwere we want to be
I WANT SOMEBODY MAKING SURE THEY AREN’T STEALING FROM ME
what the FRIG do these democrats NOT understand, there MUST be oversight no matter WHAT
if they want to spy, the can do it whenever they want, they don’t have to get warrant before they spy, all they have to do is at some point show why they thought there was a security threat
that’s IT
the democrats are trying to kick this ball down the road and I say BULL shit
they can wiretap whoever they want as long as someone else besides cheney and bushe’s lap dogs is there to make sure they aren’t taking information for their own personal use
pretty much the ONLY think I’d go along with is extending the window that they can spy before they aqcuire their warrant, I think it’s 72 hours now and I might extend that to a couple of weeks, certainly not a month
Why can’t somebody call Bush and McConnell on their bullshit? How can them going around announcing that we are now less safe make us any safer? How dangerous is that?
get some probiotics from the health food section to kick start your tummies, all ye who suffer the fluze.
Not being able to obtain a warrant for foreign-to-foreign communications on US soil is bullshit too.
No need for warrant for any foreign-to-foreign communications.
Pre-coffee googleing produces this from media matters but I read more legalistic arguments elsewhere.
News flash: William Kristol informs us that Hayden, Mike McConnell and Mukasey are not political:
Link to today’s column (as always, not for the faint of heart).
I’m so glad Kristol set us straight on that one. I haven’t seen a move from any of these three over the past few years that I thought wasn’t political.
I will rest much easier knowing they only have my safety at heart. /snark
The number of e-mails I’ve sent DiFi explaining this one - she ought to have it figured out by now.
Time to bombard Henry the W, I guess (although I think he may get it).
Why does the government hate America for its freedom?
Kristol is still practicing his jedi mind trick. oy!
With liberal media like that who needs propaganda.
Inaugurating the New York Times Deathwatch
So sayeth the lord kristol
So, to answer Janes question
As we are dealing with honorable people in the admin I would say we should believe them and yes this is exactly where we would want to be. If we were sychophantic, yellow bellied, gooper lite bloody morons such as pelosi, reid and the demdogs.
Totally OT but there is an edit available at FDL for those that have been craving.
1. Go to preview
2. edit in comment box
3. Submit.
It edits for me
Might want to try a reference other than MediaMatters.org .
Something that nobody here is seeing….this issue is going to be a spring board for McCain. He is going to start attacking the Dems now in an effort to gain ground with the conservative base. Hillary and Obama are going to need to take a stand on this one, and chances are it is going to be against McCain.For the Dems, this will not be a popular move with the American People and will throw National Security back in the lime-light.
but can you go to earlier posts and edit? We could before.
what is wrong with media matters?
Do you know where your cow is? USDA Orders Largest Meat Recall.
It is so reassuring that there’s very little of this tainted beef still on the market, because we already ate most of it.
i don’t have a cold but my house leaks. I blame the Texas Mafia.
I guess no. Sorry.
Hi Scarecrow,
I’m not sure the dem’s response is a bad as you present it. I understood them to be saying simply that the claim that we are now vulnerable because of the expiration is clearly false because nothing immediate has changed with the expiration. Since that is so, the administration is simply engaging in fear-mongering and needs to be called on it.
It does not follow from this that FISA needs to be gutted or that retroactive impunity is required, etc.
That said, I don’t trust the dems to “do the right thing” and simply add an allowance for foreign to foreign communications that are routed through the US and leave everything else in place.
It really puzzles me why they don’t have the gonads for this. This should be a very clear and easy sell. Unfortunately they don’t seem to have them. Perhaps the Donna Edwards victory will help them but I suspect not enough.
Sigh.
kurt, this just isn’t true, mccain can’t take the brand on national securiy, obama and clinton can punish him but they are going to have to call his claims the lies that they are’
they can’t be weak, they can’t waffle, they have to attack mccains’ judgement, attack what he says as the lie that they are, they have to attack the only strenght mccain has
For years spouse and myself have only eaten organic. We grow most of out veggies, we have a couple of farms where we buy meats and we do our own baking. We are lucky as I am retired and can spend the time.
The food industry is relying on the fact that most people do not have the time to shop “properly” or carefully so they stuff food with chemicals and ridi**n and whatever other drugs they wish to dumb down ‘merca and it seems to be working!
The best thing to do is buy locally when you can.
One thing about this telcom spying which is never discussed is the cost benefit analysis.
What are the actual costs and the costs to our 4th amendment protection? We seem to be mostly up in arms about the latter. I’d bet that most of the tapping stuff is a huge waste of money and produces no real tangible results. Taps work once you have a suspect. What they seem to be doing is dropping a fishing line in the middle of the ocean because they know fish live in water. It’s way to random to be effective. You need to know where to fish and what sort of gear works for the type of fish you are after.
The spook agencies need to show some serious results from all their “secret” work. I am uncomfortable with the money and power given over to them and the lack of sunlight on their RESULTS let alone their operations.
What we have seen is that when they are following someone they fail to connect the dots as in Moussaoui or the 93 WTC bombing. The spooks are bumbling idiots in my judgment. Old FISA is MORE than generous and they need to show probably cause to tap someone in my opinion. This data farming of everyone is way off the mark.
Thanks for that link. I hadn’t been aware that there is a Verizon executive on the NYTimes Board. I wonder if that had any influence on their sitting on the warrantless wiretapping story until after the 2004 elections?
The site is well known to have liberal-biased content being a George Soros funded entity….. Although I guess it really doesn’t matter as this site has liberal leanings. Its kind of like me posting something, then using the Heritage Foundation as reference to support my argument.
Jimminy cricket at @37 I called Scarecrow Jane.
Where the hell is editing*g*
marc did a great job on that post.
Was that snark? Soros doesn’t fund MediaMatters. Liberal? Yes.
I understand your point; and it was an easy argument for Dems to make to refute the “gap” theme the Republicans are trying to spread. But the argument can cut against them is they assume, as Rockefeller did, that we need a wholesale change from FISA, and that’s where the Senate wound up. The House is now straddled with this argument.
The aspects if this is striking…. First it was sold to school lunch programs across the country… IF it is Mad Cow… it could be 10 years before anyone shows symptoms…. Secondly….. the only reason this got out is that workers videoed the downer cows who were being shocked(cow prods) to be ambulatory which were given to the human society…. the FDA did not do it on its own.
Anyway…. Good Morning everyone… sun is just peeking up over here in AZ…. Off to get some coffee.
Thanks for that!
I’ll try it soon when I have something worthwhile to say…*g*
I suppose it has a “well known to have liberal-biased” if you think the Heritage Foundation is a non-partisan think tank.
Just reid this and it work perfectly!
Today is Presidents Day. And my lady and I have the day off. Who do I like?
Number one is Abraham Lincoln. Followed by Washington, FDR, JFK and Jimmy Carter. And Bobby Kennedy, the president we were not allowed to know. I assigned all the kids in my math classes a task. Write a short essay on who your favorite president is. I will hear from our school administration about this. At least I hope so. My principle will want to know what an essay on presidents has to do with math. I have an answer for this man, who I dearly love. He has saved my job on more than one occasion. The essay will count as a quiz, I have told my students. I have asked my significant other Democrat if she would grade these essays. She said she’d be happy to. Happy Presidents Day!
Keep in mind, they can attack McCain all they want. All McCain has to do is link himself with National Security, then Obama/Hillary are going to be viewed as attacking the American People. McCain is trying to get the conservative-leaning Democrats and Independents to stay with him…they do care about this and will move support in his direction. Trust me, National Security will stay front and center, all it will take is some small incident in the world to keep this on Americas radar.
nooooo don’t Reid it!
One more point just occurred to me on the level of deceit the Republicans have been using on this issue. As the House Democrats were calling their bluff on PAA, don’t you think that would have been the time to declassify a few of the “spectacular successes” the wiretapping program has had in deterring terrorist attacks? It seems to me that if they had anything at all that looked like they had actually accomplished anything with this program, we would have had chapter and verse on all of the media outlets 24/7 until the Dems caved. I take this as more evidence that they have bupkis.
but you have to do all that before you post…it won’t let you go back to edit. Thing is, with the edit function within Preview, you can simply edit copy as Preview–(what your comment would look like After you post it…)
Get all that, gang?
Cynic. It was purely for security reasons and besides AIP*C ordered it.
And all McCain needs to do is publicly flame out to show how insecure he is.
I just googled this ‘George Soros funding mediamatters.org’ . Appears this is quite a debate
LOL!
See my 63…*g*
Right and Soros hates you for your freedom.
i think the House has been straddled with this argument ever since last fall when the house leadership went the RESTORE ACT instead of Holt’s FISA Modernization bill.
Ya, you are probably right and it will be interesting to see. Maybe Hillary will actually make it, then we can see them “flame out” together.
Sounds like must see tv to me.
Wow. What brilliant insight? We’re beaten. Will he develope a system, maybe a color code, to keep the socker moms scared?
Scarecrow -
I think that you’re leaving out a very important piece of the puzzle. In August there was a huge backlog of FISC applications. This helped to justify warrantless taps, since, by definition, warrantless taps don’t need to be OK’ed by the FISC. There is now no backlog.
The big question now is who will be on the conference committee.
One of their executive directors comes on our local progressive radio…. when asked about the Soros funding he just chuckles… and says… I wish… then they wouldn’t have to work so hard for their current funding.
selise — have you seen any stories on who will be on the FISA conference?
I agree. There was a backlog, though I recall the reasons/excuse for this were not clear.
soccer
Not too clear on where you are going with this one….but I have no doubt Soros is a elitist who thinks he can take care of the American People better than the American People can.
nothing beyond the meeting last friday. it’s not even clear to me that there definitely will be a conference committee.
but i haven’t looked recently either. will take a look after more coffee.
A nice list of FISA myths.
and where did you learn that interesting tid-bit.
Today is Presidents Day and my lady (we are public school teachers) have the day off.
Who do I like? Abraham Lincoln is number one. Followed by Washington, FDR, JFK, Jimmy Carter and RFK, the president we were not allowed to know. I have assigned each of my students in my math classes to write a short essay on who their favorite president is, and why. I have told them this will count as a quiz. I will hear from our school administration about this. My principal, who I dearly love (he has saved my job quite a few times) will want to know what Presidents Day has to do with math. I have an answer for him. I have asked my significant other Democrat (my lady) if she will grade these essays. She tells me she’d be happy to do so, but indicates she wishes I wouldn’t irritate our school superintendent (he loves Bush) so. Happy Presidents Day.
The boy king has spoken.
AP - President Bush on Monday recognized Kosovo’s bold and historic bid for statehood, saying “The Kosavars are now independent.”
As sarcastic as this is, it doesn’t mean that you are beaten, but you better not underestimate it either. In Re. the the ‘Soccer Mom’s’, it may just be that easy.
EW just put up an informative post on the history of Congressional briefings on surveillance.
Is this a photo op or what? I recall Babs Bush telling us that the folks who lost their homes were enjoying themselves in the stadium, post Katrina. We are not being fooled with your empty rhetoric Mr. Bush.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....ush_kosovo
It is just to much to hope that the Dems can get on the offensive with their messaging isn’t it? They still let Rethugs frame the debate.
Well, its not a fact, its more of a personal opinion based off some of the readings on the gentleman.
“Bush recognizes Kosovo’s independence”
“Bush recognizes”. Well… when the king speaks, I listen.
I will be disappointed if I ever learn the fascists are not spying on me.
OT-The meat recall. This is another problem that we’ve known about for years but nothing has been done. They’re not testing the meat for mad cow. They’re preventing any meat packer from testing it independently. And when an obvious case emerges, it gets whitewashed. Most importantly, it a health crisis that won’t manifest itself till Bush is out of office. Thus, not his fault. I want this to be part of his legacy.
All this is such a farce. We’re fighting at one level and they are operating at another level altogether.
Prince Bandar, BAE, BushCo
However, we have to fight with whatever weapons we have, and it’s our voices and our vote.
virus from clenis: hah hah hah. i like to LOL with my communication education on FISA. excellent post scarecrow.
sunny and cold here in austin.
Deathwatch funny.
This particular holiday perhaps shouldn’t be called “President Day”. It might better be called ‘Vice-Presidents Day’. And what has our boy (Cheney) been up to these days?
Good morning Scarecrow, pups!
The meat industry is immense and like the telcoms, Pharma, the energy sector that weird enormous clout.
We have given ranchers OUR land to use for grazing as well, free IIRC.
Diet for A New America, John Robbins
beings that its all sunny and all but sixty here, I’m off with the dog.
Thank you Scarecrow!
?Texas Mafia
I think most people, and surely the potential candidates, are aware of the ease with which fear can be aroused. We’ve heard the terror stricken calls to Washington Journal. We understand the continuing conflict between security and liberty. Do you consider the use of fear as you describe it to be an acceptable, or an ignoble political tactic?
Make no mistake. Cheney and Rove are working their little tails off today. Behind the curtain.
i agree with most of this. i don’t know about the spooks being bumbling idiots part - seems like they got called off continuing with lots they knew by people much higher up the chain of command.
my conspiracy theory ever since JFK’s death
Well now that that straw man has been stuffed lets go back to FISA.
Testimony of James A. Baker
Before the
Committee on the Judiciary
United States Senate
September 25, 2007
You’d think in this political election season that the politicians would be really concerned with this for their own safety and security, but apparently not. So if they don’t care if their own or their campaign’s privacy is violated, what would make you think they’d even consider yours. That’s just how dangerous this whole thing is. These politicians don’t even seem to care when they are at risk themselves. Blind and stupid is all I can think.
Let’s just say that they’ve denied it vigorously over and over. I think it was Bill-O who kept accusing them of that when he and MM were in a battle, and IIRC they backed up their denials with documents. But it has been awhile ago and my recollection may be faulty.
Media Matters says Soros and OSI have not funded Media Matters