Are civil unions just as good as marriage? Should GLBT people be happy when the state decides to grant something like marriage? Should we consider ourselves lucky when our heteronormative society throws us a bone?
Not according to a report to be issued Tuesday by a New Jersey state commission tasked to evaluate their state’s year-old Civil Unions law, implemented by the legislature under orders from their highest court to stop discriminating against people of the same gender who want to marry. Approved unanimously by all twelve members, the report is rather damning:
A commission established to study same-sex civil unions in New Jersey has found in its first report that civil unions create a "second-class status" for gay couples rather than giving them equality.
Lovely. Enshrined in another American state’s law: second-class status for human beings.
Didn’t America decide in the twentieth century that equality before the law meant, um, equality — and not some other, second-class, type of status? And when the state Supreme Court ruled last year that all couples were entitled to all the benefits conveyed by marriage, but the legislature decided to come up with another category that wouldn’t, oh, offend people who saw their own marriages under attack because Adam and Steve were getting hitched, who could predict this outcome?
The commission held three public hearings last year where the majority of the testimony came from people who were in civil unions and said they were still not being treated the way married couples are by government agencies, employers and others.
For instance, the commission finds that many companies in the state that are self-insured, and therefore are regulated by federal rather than state law, refuse to provide health insurance to the partners of their employees.
But don’t people everywhere understand what it means when you drive away from the church, or the courthouse, or the temple, with your vehicle emblazoned by your groomsmen with the catchy slogan, "Just Civil Unionized!!" No, they don’t:
The commission also finds that many people in the state do not understand civil unions. "Civil union status is not clear to the general public," the report says, "which creates a second-class status."
The commission’s report says the misunderstanding of civil unions makes it more difficult for a child to grow up in New Jersey with gay parents, or to be gay themselves.
If you’re growing up gay in New Jersey, you can take scant comfort in the law your state has enacted. When the kids at school taunt you for being "gay," at least you know your friends who are gay moms are treated equally under the law. Except, of course, they are not.
The panel found civil unions have "a deleterious effect" on gay and lesbian youngsters and those being raised by same-sex couples.
Lucy O’Brien came to that realization during a kitchen conversation with her 17-year-old son, Tom, who is gay. She was trying to reassure him, pointing to several gay couples they know in Montclair.
"And he said, ‘But they’re not married,’" she said. "I suddenly got it that my son is acutely aware that he’s a second-class citizen."
If you are hoping to visit your civil-unionized partner in the hospital, you’d better hope the nurse on duty understands that a civil union makes you immediate family — because there is little recourse if the nurse doesn’t get it. "But that’s my civil-unionized partner" just doesn’t have the same strength as "But that’s my wife." Ask any number of people who’ve tried to see their partners in the emergency room. Ask any number of people who’ve tried to include their civil-unionized partners on their health insurance.
When civil unions became available one year ago, Gina Pastino of Upper Montclair was "thrilled" to form one with her partner of a dozen years, Naomi Cohen. But the couple are frustrated after a year of trying to explain — at the bank, the passport office and repeatedly in hospitals — that their civil union entitles them to be treated like spouses.
“People don’t understand what civil unions are," said Cohen.
Judy Ford of Port Norris formed a civil union last April to add her partner to her health insurance plan. But the medical center that employs Ford used a loophole in federal law to deny coverage to her partner, Yvonne Mazzola.
Now, because of her civil union, she would be liable for her partner’s uninsured medical bills. They might dissolve their civil union.
"It only puts us in a precarious legal situation," said Ford. "Now we have a civil union with no benefit and only detriment."
Wonderful. New Jersey has created a legal predicament that makes civil-unionized partners responsible for one another’s medical bills but ineligible for one another’s health insurance plans.
Additionally, the new civil-union law places members of the Armed Services in particular and unique jeopardy:
The requirement that same-sex couples declare civil union status, a separate category reserved for same-sex couples, exposes members of the United States military to the "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" policy.
Never fear, though, the Defenders of Marriage are here:
The state’s Catholic bishops declared today a day of prayer to defend marriage against "serious challenges" that include divorce and cohabitation.
"One of the most serious challenges is the effort to change the very definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman in order to allow same-sex marriage," Newark Archbishop John Myers said in a letter to all pastors.
Or, there’s this view:
"The law is just a complete and utter failure," said Tom Prol, a trustee of the New Jersey State Bar Association. "It’s a failed experiment in discrimination."
And this one, from Lynn Fontaine Newsome, President of the New Jersey State Bar Association:
From the Bar’s perspective, civil unions are a failed experiment. They have shown to perpetuate unacceptable second-class legal status.
Marriage is marriage.
Civil unions aren’t.
Freedom to Marry for all, please. Now.
{YouTube courtesy of bluejersey and Garden State Equality}
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Teddy!
Teddy! equal means equal
Excellent post, Teddy!
What Suz said.
If that, even! 8-(
Perhaps someone will propose a constitutional compromise declaring civil unions to be 3/5ths of a marriage.
Then again, maybe not. We all know how well that last 3/5ths compromise (Article 1, section 2) worked out — it took almost 90 years and a war to get that one fixed.
There is only one correct answer: homosexuality is every bit as normal and natural as heterosexuality. They are equal. And since governments cannot discriminate based on gender, gay marriage should be viewed by the government as equal in every way to straight marriage.
It’s so simple!
Two people who love each other should be able to marry, no matter what.
I’m liking the Ninth Amendment tonight, Teddy!
Well, it’s more than half way there…!
Teddy, do you have some links for all those quotes?
Bonne Soir, Ma Cheri! Still no dives…?
Kind of like being 3/5ths pregnant, if you ask me.
The government has no business legislating who I may and who I may not love, marry, or have children with.
Amen, Rev! ;-)
Hi Teddy. Excellent post.
Good evening dear friends.
I dugg this post Teddy and hope that others do likewise.
I was once 3/5 pregnant. Around the 6th month if I recall ….
One of the most egregious failures would have to be the medical decisions and /or access to see the better half, if something should befall them… 8-(
OT.
Siun. Here’s the link to the Haaretz article.
CTuttle, despite the close ties between Israel and Turkey, Turkey isn’t considered Arab.
I am more inclined to finger Jordan. But who knows what is really going on.
Siun, if it is a case of a faked death, Hezbollah is really playing it up. Massive funerals, threats of dire retribution and all.
-G
Suz, dunnit.
CT – tis a last nerve fried kinda night and i really don’t think everyone would enjoy my splat (of course, excepting those who find that kinda thing pleasurable)
Several are from an article in the Newark Star Ledger that was sent to me via email and is not yet available online. Probably it’ll be up tomorrow at http://www.nj.com/
The others are from the links in the post.
Hello everyone! I am tired of waiting patiently. The fiance and I celebrated our fourth anniversary of engagement last week, on the Thirteenth. Seems like long enough to wait on the Governator to make marriage legal. His is.
Isn’t that just a matter of time?
Splat, eh? I empathize…! Any nibbles…?
“ Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 14th Amendment of the US Constitution. Witch burning and scarlet letter need a finalburial.
OT
Morris Davis, an Air Force colonel, was the chief prosecutor for the military commissions at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, from 2005 to 2007. Could Jane, Christy od sone at the Lake get an interview here for us to ask the questions we have about torture in our prisons both military abd the rapes that occur in our domestic prisons?
While living in CA, I was asked by a female-female couple to sign the paperwork required by their employer so that they could receive the full benefit package given to male-female couples employed at their place of work.
I happily signed it for them, then apologized for not having any rice to throw. They laughed, then sighed . . . and then we went out to a local winery to taste some fine wine.
It’s a marathon, not a sprint — but that line’s getting closer.
I was too, but it was a fleeting condition. The 3/5iness, not the pregnancy.
anyone hungry for cake?
Or perhaps this one?
*raising a glass*
To Teddy and his spouse!
*ding*
What people don’t understand is that all marriages are essentially civil unions. And use the language to deprive some of us of our rights.
Ding!
UPS fought the law for five months, and finally gave up last summer.
nope – open house all afternoon with only visitors were folks here in the park :(
Ding.
I’m a little perplexed why the state has such an interest in marriage/civil unions to begin with. Developed countries have a long robust history of contract law. Haven’t though about it a lot (and am of a personal situation where I don;t need to), but think that contract law might be the answer.
Benfits to spouses is an historic accident. Don’t see why you can’t designate anyone legally for all other aspects of your life. What’s the problem?
I’ve been a pioneer in several ways. Never regarded that as making me a second class citizen, but rather as making me an A+ citizen. It’s all in the framing.
Harry Truman integrated the armed forces through executive order (although of course it took some time to work its way through). That’s leadership!
Then came the DLC Clinton who capitulated to the right-wing with the nonsensical “don’t ask don’t tell”. That’s DLC leadership!
If you think being GLBT is second class, try being childfree.
People without children are the last unprotected class of people. We pay and pay and pay, and get nothing for our money. I realize many GLBT are also CF, so some of y’all are part of that, but just try saying kids aren’t the most important thing in your life in most “progressive,” (or even un-progressive) circles and watch the eyebrows rise, the mouths snap shut and the shunning begin.
CF people pay a greater portion of their income in taxes and get absolutely nothing for their money.
eCAHN, I like how you put this.
Teddy- I think I’ve found the article via Nexis Lexis- I will email to Peterr if I have found it.
Quote: ~~~The report stops short of recommending that the state allow gay marriage. But it does find that gay couples in Massachusetts, the only state that now allows gay marriage, do not experience some of the legal complications that those in New Jersey do. [snip]
Gay rights advocates say the civil unions do not deliver and have pledged to push lawmakers to vote to allow gay marriage. Gov. Jon S. Corzine has said he would be willing to sign such a bill into law but doesn’t want the issue to be taken up before the presidential election.~~~
Is that it?
Oh give me a break. Clinton was in no position to fully integrate gays in the miltary and you know it. Did you really want him to sacrifice his precidency on that issue? (Not meaning that it wasn’t a worthy issue, only pointing out that his presidency would have subsequently been powerless if he’d tried to do that.)
Well our wacky AZ legislature is trying to put another constitutional amendment to define marriage between one man & one woman…. the problem… what do we define all those people who live up in Colorado City that is part of Warren Jeffs sect?
Initially, I would have said yes, it was just a matter of time. But NJ employers are making a significant effort to get around the civil union laws. People are coming to understand it as a second-class kind of relationship (and therefore composed of second-class citizens). Codifying the second-class nature of the legal standing in law seems horrible, really.
People might understand it eventually, but it seems pretty clear they will understand it as “less than” which is not what the court actually ordered.
Don’t ask Don’t Tell would work a whole lot better if the military actually didn’t ASK.
No one is forcing you to remain childless and has declared that you do not have the right to have a child because of who you choose to love.
Big difference between voluntary choices and what Teddy wrote about.
I agree that CF folks get the hose, but the discrimination is an apples/oranges contrast.
I don’t recall anyone being beaten to death or harassed in hospitals because they don’t have kids.
Just my $0.02 worth…
Uh-oh . . . trouble in the library:
Sounds to me as if the superintendent could use a little remedial reading. Parents, teachers, principals, and librarians thought it was fine. More administrators, teachers, and librarians concurred. But not the superintendent?
Straddling a barbed wire fence is no way to go through life, Mr. Hatrick.
I am losing all patience on everything…
But, the heartiest of all possible congratulations to you and Patrick! Whoo HOOOO!
Baloney.
Depends on where you live, of course, but CF is quite common in the U.S.
Now, atheists, there’s a discrimiated against group! (But atheists can “pass.”)
As a purely practical matter, that example of how civil union couples are treated in emergency rooms is the sort of thing that’s always bothered me about civil unions. You can say they’re the same as marriage from a legal perspective, but legally they aren’t marriages. So are folks going to get over their prejudices just because someone says they’re sorta, kinda, usually like marriages in some vague legal sense? I doubted it even without looking.
Maybe it’s the best that can be hoped for right now (to me, that’s a whole ‘nother argument), but you’re right – a civil union’s not the same as a marriage, and it’s bound to be less.
No more turning away
So the path is clear. The law sez what it sez, and it’s a matter of litigation until practice conforms with law. No one promised anyone a Rose Garden.
Ironically, it repudiates the ‘equal commerce’ clause of the US Const…! Whereby all legal actions conducted in one state are equal in another…!
Peterr, isn’t that an unbelievable story? Oneperson complained, and that was enough for the book to be pulled. Loudoun County is turning purple in many ways, but some folks out here need some more enlightenment.
Oops… linky weny bye bye…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v240bYbbrM
Hope this works
Bong
Uh, you mean like public education? So that the clerks at the grocery store know how to count the money back? And so many other things. I am CF, but I find your view rather short-sighted. I mean, we do live in an interconnected “society” and all that.
The costs associated with those contractual relationships are exorbitant and don’t cross state lines; if one partner gets a job in another state, the paperwork has to be entirely redrawn. Why should glbt couples, not all of whom own two-million-dollar Victorians in the Castro, have to bear the costs of all that paperwork when a marriage license would suffice?
I do agree that the state shouldn’t be in the marriage business but in the civil union business, but unfortunately that well’s been dipped too many times. If we try to get the state out of the marriage business, the fundies will accuse us even more of destroying hetero marriage. And they’ll finally have a point!
Hey! I am supposed to get a rose garden! Where’s my rose garden? Where are my roses? HEY WORLD!
It’d be unbelievable, except for the fact that it’s all too common. “Oh, we don’t want any controversy . . . let’s choose ignorance and/or discrimination instead.”
Yep. And try paying for dental, and college, and weddings..
Hi VG!
Oh give me a break. Clinton was in no position to fully integrate gays in the miltary and you know it.
Don’t tell me what I know. Clinton should have integrated gays in the military through executive order, period. It was the right moment in history and the correct, moral thing to do. It was his DLC behaviors that led to the loss of the House to the Rethugs.
I totally look forward to meeting you in Austin!
Okay, now… First, the males sit on the egg the majority of the time, and, 2) It’s not like the two penguins procreated the egg… I mean really, get the facts…! *sheesh*
Peterr, yep — seems that Hatrick caved to avoid that controversy.
Take heart, Loudoun residents — we are working hard for change!
Uh, are we on the same page here? I hope so. What I was trying to say is that it is quite short-sighted to look at the benefits of having a healthy and educated populace only through a narrow lens of “have children or not?” Really, we are all intertwined.
Because life isn’t fair.
Think about the marriage income tax penalty. And the alternative minimun tax penalty. Is the paperwork cost you’re complaining about much greater than either of those?
I’m on your side in the sense that I think you should be treated like everyone else. I’m just saying that ideal is never actualized, and that the difference between civil unions and marriages in not one of the greater inequalities in the U.S.
I did object to the explicit descriptions of the mating rituals between Tango and partner.
All that toe-tapping…….tsk…tsk..tsk…
-G
Ah yes, *sigh* the old three-fifths compromise.
Well, bearing in mind the first slaves landed in “America” in 1529 and 260 years later, you don’t change tradition and custom with a stroke of the pen. Anyway, that compromise was not racial but political — to limit the apportionment of southern states.
Great Britain and most of the rest of the world got away from slavery without a war. Compensated emancipation worked. Or the ‘colonization’ approach could have made a difference — not sure how Haiti or central American might have reacted, though.
The objection to Tango seems to be rooted in its “attack” on non-traditional families, but I think the fundies hate it because it’s true. If it were a made-up story, it would be easy to dismiss as secular humanist fiction. But since it’s a true story of real penguins, the entire fundie “unnatural” argument falls like the house of cards it is.
And children are very likely to see through that argument if they know about Tango’s family.
No one liked the cakes in aisle 29? Should I find something different for snack?
Disagree.
Good night friends, gotta go tell firefighters where to go in the AM.
No. Everyone is too excited about the intellectual arguements for the moment to think about the caloric ones. *g*
OT, but more fundy shit that makes me crazy ….
Pennsylvania bill: Allow doctors to deny treatment, medicine on religious grounds
So, don’t tell the firefighters that you posted on a blog about gay marriage!
JMO, but Bubba allowed himself to be bullied, even before he was inaugurated, into giving in on this.
He took the “Third way”, IMO.
Yes. Same page.
I agree with your assessment as opposed to Rob’s view, especially since I served 8 of my twenty years under Clinton… Wrong time and Wrong Prez… If Gore had been elected in ‘00, he could’ve finessed it in after 9/11!
My late wife (before my time) was X/5 pregnant five times. Each miscarriage was a boy — Marion had a friend who had several miscarriages, and each time in her case was a girl. Two data points don’t make a good graph but it is a curious factoid.
eCAHN, 707!
Hey Betsy!
Since I’m probably the only person here off work tomorrow for “Presidents Day” — how about a Democratic theme for snacks? Just a suggestion…
Our latest is to deny birth certificates to newborns who are born here in AZ where the parents cannot prove they are citizens….. SO if this wacky lovely ballot measure passes….. we could have a whole bunch of non-entity babies.
Sorry for both of their losses.
I lost three pregnancies — one girl and two that were too early to know.
thanks for the cakes, tex. sorry i was silent earlier – hard to type while stuffing my face with cake
Aloha, LL!
Thanks. I have no imperical evidence, but observed after the fact, that antipathy toward gays was much greater than I imagined during Bill Clinton’s admin.
I live in NYC and have many good gay friends. So my judgement has needed to be tempered by moving away from my own environment and seeing what was possible in the environment that wasn’t as sympatico as the one I’m living in.
during the Suffragette era, were not women also considered to be a 3/5th – or am i misremembering again?
Hope you weren’t thinking of THIS president?
I’ll keep looking.
Maybe (maybe) in and of itself the difference between civil unions and marriage is not huge – but it is only one part of a deeply rooted and virulent form of discrimination.
But now those differences are being codified in law, and an arm of the state has described those differences as leading to second-class status. Surely, you would not have us proceed down a path that the state itself describes as creating a second-class status.
Are there actual inequalities that are quite so straightforward in law? I am unaware of any in our country that are so blisteringly described by the state that enacted them, but I am willing to be enlightened. Please let me know which inequality in the US, codified in law, you find to be greater.
Will this one go to the school board in Loudoun, do you suppose? (I have not yet read the article.)
A presidents’ day cake!
perhaps we can compromise with the fundastanis by agreeing to eliminate marriage all together and make everything a civil union. I’m just saying…
I’ve seen it in action throughout, sometimes it seemed to result in witchhunts, the don’t ask part was the shakiest of the two…! 8-(
what??
My condolence for the losses. I know Marion regretted every one.
But there are mysteries in life, too. After the last loss, Marion was told she just wouldn’t have any more children. She and previous husband John were quite surprised when she carried a girl, Prue, to term.
Congrats to TSF and Patrick for four years, and more to come. :-)
Bill shot his mouth off at a Harvard(?) Q&A about Gays in the Military. He based his answer on Truman’s exec order re: AAs in the military. Bill’s bravado was based on ignorance..It was never illegal to be black in the military but under the UCMJ it was illegal to be Gay. Only Congress can change the UCMJ. Colin Powell and Sam Nunn through Clinton under the bus on the subject of gays in the military; IMO.
katymine – is that a ballot initiative? Do you have a similar system to CA?
Dawg!
I am so glad that I had Texteen before any of these problems occurred. I was also unable to have any more after the last miscarriage and now there is no way my body could carry a pregnancy in any event.
Teddy, I look forward to wearing tie dye to your wedding.
Well, you mentioned finanacial considerations, so my last comment was responding to your complaint about the cost of applications vs. the cost of AMT or the marriage penalty.
WRT discrimiantion, WORT costs, the examples are multiple. Gender discrimination in the workplace most likely FAR outpaces anything in GLBT marriage problems.
I’m sorry that our contretemps has disintegrated into which dicrimination is quantitatively less or greater than the other discrimination. All are bad. I’m just trying to create some sense of context. Civil unions aren’t perfect, but they’re sure much better than what came before.
Trying to separate race from politics is pretty laughable.
-G
Have they figured out yet a civil “disunion” or divorce process in NJ?
Civil unions, like DADT, are emblematic of triangulation. Trying not to piss off the fundies and the bishops, and still under court order to create something with all the basic rights and responsibilities of marriage, NJ created something which appears not to work and which clearly satisfies no one.
But that is the nature of The Third Way, is it not?
You know it was odd here when the definition of marriage was expanded to apply to same-sex relationships. After all the hue and cry beforehand, once it was all settled, everyone sort of looked around and seemed to say “well, that’s that”. And we haven’t heard a thing about it since. Same sex marriage has been pretty well accepted – at least publicly.
But it was a long fight to get there.
Immigration initiative would target automatic birth citizenship for children
Thank you!
You know another reason I’d like to get married? We are tired of the gingerly-asked question by someone we’ve not seen in a while and encounter while solo: “Are you and Teddy still together?” Do people ask their hetero friends (who’ve been together seven-plus years and engaged for four) this question? I think not. And yet we both get it all the time, because homo relationships are thought less stable and more ephemeral.
I guess that’s what I deserve for sending him outside without his collar on!
Absolutely not. In this case, it is (a perhaps imperfect) way to get to where we should be, while dragging along the troglodytes.
If you don’t agree, live without any civil unions until all of the U.S. is ready for full gay marriage. Do you really think that’s a better road?
Instantaneous SCOTUS challenge…
What could they be thinking?
Thanks katymine
It is indeed.
I have never been prouder to be a Canadian than I was when same-sex marriage was legalized here.
Wellll, if you’re not going to be wearing it, then I’ll be going in that cute little number made of condoms.
well, during slavery, weren’t slaves according fractional citizenship? Perhaps these rethugs would like to consider the same deal for the children of undocumented immigrants… it would lay bare their intentions
“What could they be thinking?”
that they own the scotus
Um,I know plenty of hetero couples in NYC who see each other only from time to time whose friends wonder whether they’re still together. Perhaps we’re not so antisocial on this coast as to ask either gay or straight couples the Q you posit. I really have never heard anyone being being guache enough to outloud it. SF must be pretty outre.
Hey….. take a look at McBush, Kyl, Renzi and old JD Hayworth…. I live in the land of the wackos…. Russel Pierce is one of the wackest.
I’m heading off to bed…. Teddy say hi to Patrick and a big hug to you both…. as a single woman who co-habituates in a heterosexual relationship, these laws effect me too.
I’ve not had a reply to the email I sent the bride to be last nite with my suggestion of that dress as what I was looking for in a mother of the bride dress – and i did point out it was not tie dyed.
Thanks for the great idea, VG (wicked grin).
Don’t ya mean the ball and chain…? As Betsy asked about divorce, one comic once said; “if ya’ll want to partake in the joys, far be it for me to deny ya the agonies…!” ;-)
Thanks, Just posted it at my place, but some of the text at the link seems different from your quotation above.
I took out sections…. that is why I put in the [ ] to let you know that.
It worked in Canada.
i have GOT to know – did you REALLY send an email with a link to photo?
gw, yes, i really did
Ah, OK. I see what I missed before. A few paragraphs at the end. Only part of a brain functioning here.
I’m sorry too, as I think arguments about which is worse only serve to divide us. But my point isn’t that this form of discrimination is worse — I posit that it is different and unlike any other kind currently codified in law.
I don’t mean to dismiss workplace discrimination based on gender. But that goes to my point exactly: there is a substantial body of law prohibiting such, and the state has mechanisms to right such wrongs. Are there any laws currently on the books that say it’s okay to discriminate in the workplace based on gender, thus creating a second-class status? And has the state so labelled these laws, by actually announcing that there is such a second-class status created for those of another gender?
This is not an argument about degree of discrimination; it’s a discussion of state-sanctified second-class status, which is, I think, unique in New Jersey’s civil union law.
Why wouldn’t she? ;-)
HAH! i love it! after she she’s that, you can wear anything you want. it’ll all be an “improvement” – tie-dye,leather, tin-foil, whatever.
Ya could always put the electrodes further north…! ;-)
And gay marriage would work in the U.S. too. (Has MA fallen off the edge of the earth?) All I’m saying is that the U.S. doesn’t have gay marriage as a country, and the route to that is civil unions, and don’t whine.
Suzanne,
Please tell me what your suggestion of the motb dress is… I’d love to know.
Chris
“she sees” not “she she’s”
This is an important point, which sorta got lost:
14th amendment, in part, as you said
eCAHN, would you find that argument as satisfactory if it was turned around and you were discriminated because you were a woman – would you be content with being only considered a partial person and not try to be considered a whole person in the eyes of the law?
Would it be acceptable for you to be told that because you were a woman, you could not marry the person you loved and could only have a civil union?
Is there such a thing as an “auntie to the groom” dress? Or do you think I can wear anything I choose. I’ll be in the front row along with my parents and Cassie will be standing up near the bride in a beautiful pale rose dress with bows and buttons.
It is about the fourteenth, as noted by BigBrother above.
it was a dress vg found that was made of condoms in a rainbow of colors. let me find the link
Here’s the link and what i said to her was “i’m thinking of something along the lines of this dress for my MOTB dress dear”
My point is that we went straight (ahem) to marriage with detouring through civil unions.
Massachusetts didn’t go the civil unions route.
I’m not proposing we go without until the entire USA is ready; I’m suggesting that the civil union law is an experiment in discrimination that has failed. Ordered to grant all couples marriage rights, the New Jersey legislature would have been smart to go with marriage. Almost 2/3 of citizens of that state want to upgrade, anyway.
Suz- My pleasure! ;)
http://www.thescene.com.au/upload/condoms1.jpg
Ohh boy, I can guess the response for this dress.
OK. I see it your way. But think there are many problems of greater magnitude.
INO, in the case of inequity wrt law, there’s work place inequity and there’s marriage inequity. Both are bad, but the former is bigger bucks than the latter.
There is open sodomy in the streets of Hyannis. Weddings at petting zoos.
It’s a madhouse.
-G
Oh my. I’d seen clothes made from in-wrapper condoms, but that’s a little less discreet.
Good for the tourism economy then?
Well, yes, there are problems of greater magnitude. Don’t you think I know that, following Siun on Sunday nights as I do? *g*
She’s collecting rainwater.
and, christine, now that suzanne’s wearing tie-dye to teddy’s wedding, and this dress is not taken, it’s what i’m planning to wear to teddy’s wedding, assuming it’s still intact after suzanne’s wedding.
Weddings at petting zoos — betrothing men to the residents? Or just as as a quaint wedding destination?
I could swear that it’s still deemed a civil union, not marriage, but, there isn’t any discrepancy between the two, like Jersey’s! But, it was court ordered in Mass, rather than legislated like NJ’s…
The ultimate recycling dress.
tired tonight. not “suzanne’s” wedding. her son’s wedding. EDIT would be nice.
Teddy, what is the legal status in the US for same-sex couples who are married elsewhere? Are their marriages recognized? Does it matter what country they are citizens of – say for example a Canadian couple that moved to the US vs. an American couple?
Hopefully, thoroughly sterilized before recycling…! ;-)
*screeching to a halt*
i am not getting married. been there, done that, got the restraining orders
*laughing* daughter’s wedding
it’s her daughter
Really tired…
Daughter’s…
Great post, Teddy. This is not just a gay issue. I have lived with my guy for a decade without benefit of clergy or whatever. We have our reasons. Imagine my complete surprise and happiness when I went to work for a company in another state that offered domestic partner benefits. Instead of making do with catastrophic coverage, we both have really great health insurance. On a visit to the home planet, I occupied a cubicle next to the gay man who had shamed/lobbied/pushed them into offering those benefits, and was able to thank him.
I, on the other hand, had a dream the other night that I got engaged to be married. To a single guy I know even!
Um – time to abolish state-sanctioned marriage. Why do we want the state to be regulating sexuality? I’m not a libertarian about most things, but sex? Civil unions are also a crock. Let’s just have domestic partnerships for all -anyone, including people who aren’t related by sexual practices, should contractually designate who should do what in what circumstances. You want a companion in the hospital? Say so, and say who.
i’ll have what gw’s having, bartender – its been one of those days for sure around these here parts
i would call that a nightmare – but then, i’m twisted
It’s the Santorum Chapel.
-G
With the restraining orders to prove it…! 8-P
the man you went out with a couple months ago?
Ummm, is it safe to come out…? ;-)
No. a* tutor.
*mod note edited at commenter’s request*
speaking of which….. *arms crossed in front of bazooms, right foot toes a tappin while eyes narrow and i start to look like joan crawford*
ct, what’s this i hear about you talking about me today – you got some ’splaining to do young man
Well, first, I’m not that young…! ;-)
define ’safe’
LOL. i’ll have one of those too!
Bye…! I’ll be in the corner…! *g*
There’s no recognition I’m aware of. As a matter of fact, US Customs treats Canadian-married couples quite badly coming in to this country. One Brit member of a couple I know was held for several days because he was carrying a laptop that contained “work” — although it was his partner’s work. Because he had no work permit, and because his marriage wasn’t recognized by US agents, he was held incommunicado for several days. They have since emigrated to Britain.
Quite a brain drain from the US, in case anyone’s paying attention to these things….
do not try this in an airport men’s room.
DFWMF
this ain’t my first time to the rodeo
Wish I could say that story surprised me.
Hmm, I hadn’t even considered what happens partners are from different countries.
glossary please
the brain drain in the military because of DADT totally pisses me off – talk about cutting off our nose to spite our face…
Don’t Fork With Me, Fellas
DFWMF– ah, I think I got it! ;)
A guy tries to make a compliment and look at what happens. :)
fork er ah em hi mr boss man
straightens collar
sits up straight
clears throat
Evening Skipper!
Fine post and fine discussion. Thanks Teddy.
Night all.
*whispering to TLM* you forgot the Sir dood and that salute was not very snappy
I swear! Here’s a peace offering… I posted it a few threads ago, but, it needs to be further disseminated!
http://www.markfiore.com/node/958
g’nite fern
night Fern
In training. Rough edges.
Did I mention something about da bestest… earlier? *g*
don’t fuck with my family.
was this about my airport comment teddy?
Aloha, Fern!
file those edges – dang, your gonna make us fail inspection
Ooh, Pt. II of Pride and Prejudice…!
OT: 60 news stories and blog posts today at Reality Based News Feed
Ayatollah Khameini says to Iran, keep up the revolution and pay no mind to the Great Satan.
-G
Errr… on Masterpiece Theater tonite…!
This is the best thing on tv this year!
Suz- just reminded me of a YouTube that ET posted ages ago- herding cats. But, probably applies more to the commenters than the mods, fer sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmgLtg1Izw
Put on your formal jammies and come on upstairs
No, no — Larry Craig’s not my family!
I was referring to Suz’s comment, not yours….
I didn’t think he could be – just wanted to be sure. God help the people who are his family! Thanks for the response.
Civil Marriage for all, separate from marriage through religious institutions is the way to go. Of course, this refers to two adult humans, not someone marrying their parakeet. Anyone could have a religious ceremony in addition to this if they wish, but it would not be legally binding. A step further would be civil marriage between more than two adult humans, but Kansas isn’t ready for that discussion, so put it on hold.
Hi Dean.
Agreed.
I would argue (respectfully) though, that “a step further” would be to suggest that the right never existed, that the Fourteenth Amendment didn’t already preclude a state or the Federal government from excluding anyone from that “right.”
My argument for same gender marriage has always been that marriage is good for families and for society and so it should be extended to everyone. This is not a threat to marriage; it is pro-marriage. I also think marriage can be challenging for couples, so it helps to have social support for the relationship, as in society’s complete recognition of the marriage in every way, including the law.
Agreed.
They are NOT equal as you present it.
Gays are a minority.
Statistically. It’s a fact. Across ALL populations, in the world, in the history of the human species.
Get used to it. And own up to it, for god’s sake, to do any other wise is only killin yer cause.
Now, on MY high horse, I’ll suggest our constitution, which NEVER was written at a time to include disenfranchised minorities such as male and female homosexuals, STILL provides legal precedent for their rights.
And, I’ll add, as my PERSONAL beliefs, that gays of both genders, and transgenders too, are by NATURAL LAW OF COMMON REASON, entitled to any rights and benefits, as those who are not gay, or transgendered.
My point? Stop trying to pass yourselves off as equal in numbers, cuz yer not.
But I share your beliefs that you ARE as fully, citizens of this country, provided yer naturalized, as any of the rest of us, and yer DAMNED well sposed to get every fuckin benefit singles and married couples get.
You HAVE my, our, support. Stop trying to play the blame game, and don’t use numbers or stats, they fail your premise.
And it’s poppycock.
We all got BIGGER wars to fight, in case you haven’t heard.
All liberty is at risk. Yours, mine, ours. Kapiche?
Harumph.
Larue – at which point in Teddy’s post does he claim other than “minority” status?
Excuse me?
And so what wrt minority status? One person who is discriminated against or millions or hundreds of millions – what is your beef?
Agree with your comment otherwise.
great discussion I slept through.
Marriage as far as I can tell is a civil contract between two people, the gender aspects derive from religion ICK.
I don’t see that it matters except as married people are granted privileges not given to no married. That IS unjust, such as the tax advantages to married people.
All people need to be treated equally under the law (single, married and GLBT) and what type of marriage or relationship should be determined by the parties to it and not the state or some other institution like religion.
I don’t expect this to occur until we abandon our prissy religious notions about what is “normal”.