Part 2 of a 3-part series.
You have to wonder if there would even be an "immigration debate" of any serious dimensions if it weren’t for the nativist right. After all, they’ve been the ones bitching and complaining about "illegal aliens" prominently in recent years — organizing vigilante "Minutemen" squads and proposing punitive legislative measures and griping endlessly in the media about the supposed ill effects of illegal immigration.
But those measures in turn have prompted a response that, in the end, has changed the nature of the discourse, and made clear that scapegoating and hatemongering are not solutions, they’re problems. After all, it was the Republicans’ horrendous legislative proposals that sparked the massive street marches in 2006, and the ugliness of much of the media reportage on immigration has more recently sparked a pushback from Latinos as well, embodied by Lou Dobbs’ evasive confrontation with Janet Murguia of the National Council of La Raza. Even if the discussion was, for several years, a debate between the nativists and the status-quo corporatist conservatives, it’s started to shift.
So to at least some extent, we can thank the right-wing hatemongers for making an issue out of immigration, raising it in the public profile, and making us stop and think about how we are handling immigration now, and how we want to handle it in the future — relying to at least some extent, one hopes on an understanding of our past and the mistakes that have been made in the hopes of avoiding them.
And one thing is clear when we take that approach: The prescriptions offered by both the nativists and corporate conservatives are poisonous, likely to harm the body politic both culturally and economically, perhaps even at a catastrophic level.
There’s a good reason for that: Much of the right — the nativists particularly — have been whipped up by scapegoating artists relying on a series of popular delusions that are built on a foundation of falsehoods and distortions. They are fundamentally untrue in important ways, so much so you can’t properly call them "myths" — "canards" or "popular delusions" would be more accurate.
The existence and persistence of these delusions is the chief reason progressives have largely been on the defensive when it comes to dealing with immigration. And it’s an unfortunate fact: If they want to make any headway and forge their own approach to the debate, their first job is going to necessarily entail debunking the nativists’ canards, and dispelling many of the popular delusions about immigrants. The public isn’t going to follow a rational program if they continue to cling to old falsehoods.
Moreover, in refuting these falsehoods, we can begin to see the outlines of a powerful and effective response based both on reason and, as we noted last week, fundamental human decency.
A stroll through the list of canards themselves can be highly instructive.
1. Illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from American laborers and depressing U.S. wages.
In fact, according to a Pew Hispanic Center study:
Rapid increases in the foreign-born population at the state level are not associated with negative effects on the employment of native-born workers, according to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center that examines data during the boom years of the 1990s and the downturn and recovery since 2000.
An analysis of the relationship between growth in the foreign-born population and the employment outcomes of native-born workers revealed wide variations across the 50 states and the District of Columbia. No consistent pattern emerges to show that native-born workers suffered or benefited from increased numbers of foreign-born workers.
In fact, the number of native-born low-wage earners is falling nationally, so it turns out that immigrants play an important role in taking up the slack. According to the Urban Institute:
In 2005, immigrants overall represented more than a fifth of low-wage workers—those earning less than twice the minimum wage—and almost half of workers without a high school education. Unauthorized workers were nearly a tenth of low-wage workers and a quarter of low-skilled workers. The number of low-wage and low-skilled native-born workers fell between 2000 and 2005, due to improvements in their educational attainment but also due to decreasing labor force participation.
According to the study, the number of low-wage workers dropped by about 1.8 million; meanwhile, unskilled immigrant workers increased by 620,000, representing an offset of about a third.
2. Illegal immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy.
Studies from numerous sources and in a variety of contexts come to a unanimous conclusion: The immigrant community is not a drain on the American economy but in reality has a powerfully positive net effect.
For instance, there is the the CATO Institute study which finds the following:
Immigration gives America an economic edge in the global economy. Immigrants bring innovative ideas and entrepreneurial spirit to the United States, most notably in Silicon Valley and other high-technology centers. They provide business contacts with other markets, enhancing America’s ability to trade and invest profitably abroad. They keep our economy flexible, allowing American producers to keep prices down and meet changing consumer demands. An authoritative 1997 study by the National Academy of Sciences concluded that immigration delivers a ‘‘significant positive gain’’ to native Americans of as much as $10 billion each year.
Meanwhile, the The President’s Council of Economic Advisors found that the average immigrant pays substantially more in taxes than they collect in government services:
One key point is that "snapshot" views of immigration’s fiscal impact, particularly when based on analysis of households headed by immigrants, are insufficient and potentially misleading guides to immigration’s long-run fiscal impact.10 Instead, "Only a forward-looking projection of taxes and government spending can offer an accurate picture of the long-run fiscal consequences of admitting new immigrants" (Smith and Edmonston 1997, p. 10). This approach captures the full costs and benefits of the children of immigrants. Of course, such projections must rely on assumptions about the future path of taxes and government spending as well as economic and demographic trends. From this long-run point of view, the NRC study estimated that immigrants (including their descendants) would have a positive fiscal impact – a present discounted value of $80,000 per immigrant on average in their baseline model (in 1996 dollars).11 The surplus is larger for high-skilled immigrants ($198,000) and slightly negative for those with less than a high school degree (-$13,000).
Reviewing a number of studies for the Journal of Economic Perspectives, economists Jennifer Hunt of Yale and Brown’s Rachel Friedberg concluded:
"Despite the popular belief that immigrants have a large adverse impact on wages and employment opportunities of the native-born population … empirical estimates in a variety of settings and using a variety of approaches have shown that the effect of immigration on … natives is small. There is no evidence of economically significant reductions in native employment. … Even those natives who should be the closest substitutes with immigrant labor have not been found to suffer significantly as a result of increased immigration."
Even localized studies in areas with high immigration rates find the same. A Texas study on immigration’s economic benefits concluded:
The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million.
A similar study conducted in California by the Public Policy Institute of California found:
… [A]ccording to our calculations, during 1990–2004, immigration induced a 4 percent real wage increase for the average native
worker. This effect ranged from near zero (+0.2%) for wages of native high school dropouts and between 3 and 7 percent for native workers with at least a high school diploma.… [T]he results indicate that recent immigrants did lower the wages of previous immigrants. Wages of immigrants who entered California before 1990 were 17 to 20 percent lower in 2004 than they would have been absent any immmigration between 1990 and 2004.
They perform jobs that are inseparable from our standard of living. Undocumented workers are about 5 percent of our overall labor force but — according to the Pew Hispanic Center’s analysis of Census data — are between 22 and 36 percent of America’s insulation workers, miscellaneous agricultural workers, meat-processing workers, construction workers, dishwashers, and maids. The American Farm Bureau, the lobbying group for agricultural interests, says that without guest workers, the United States would lose $5 billion to $9 billion a year in fruit, vegetable, and flower production and up to 20 percent of production would go overseas.
Indeed, the evidence so far indicates that immigration is an essential component of our economic health:
Amid the blizzard of data concerning immigrants’ effects on wages, welfare and municipal budgets, the essential point is this: The latest wave of immigrants — legal and illegal, skilled and unskilled — has stimulated enormous economic activity and wealth generation in this country, and it is implausible that the American economy would fare as well without them.
3. Undocumented immigrants are a burden on the American taxpayers because they don’t pay taxes.
In fact, according to an Immigration Policy Center study titled "Undocumented Immigrants as Taxpayers":
Between one-half and three-quarters of undocumented immigrants pay federal and state income taxes, Social Security taxes, and Medicare taxes. And all undocumented immigrants pay sales taxes (when they buy anything at a store, for instance) and property taxes (even if they rent housing).
They also contribute mightily to the solvency of the Social Security fund:
As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year’s surplus – the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration’s projections.
4. Illegal immigrants are a burden on the health-care system.
Actually, according to a Rand study:
…[I]n the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. That amounts to an average of $11 in taxes for each U.S. household.
This compares to 88 billion dollars spent on all health care for non-elderly adults in the U.S. in 2000. Moreover, as Justice for Immigrants notes, non-natives tend to use fewer health-care services. For example, in Los Angeles County, “total medical spending on undocumented immigrants was $887 million in 2000 – 6 percent of total costs, although undocumented immigrants comprise 12 percent of the region’s residents.”
5. Illegal immigrants increase the crime rate.
There have been several studies that have debunked this claim from different angles. An Immigration Policy Center fact-check has most of the details:
Although the undocumented immigrant population doubled to about 12 million from 1994 to 2005, the violent crime rate in the United States declined by 34.2% and the property crime rate fell by 26.4%.2 This decline in crime rates was not just national, it also occurred in border cities and other cities with large immigrant populations—such as San Diego, El Paso, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami.
Moreover, according to an the AILF study titled "The Paradox of Assimilation And The Myth of Immigrant Criminality", immigrants are five times less likely than native-born to be in prison, and immigrants from nations that account for most of the undocumented have lower incarceration rates. And
6. Illegal immigrants bring disease to American shores.
This canard picked up a lot of momentum thanks to Lou Dobbs’ fraudulent reporting connecting a supposed rise in leprosy rates to immigration, but it’s been around awhile. A Texas legislator last year tried to claim that immigrants were "bringing Polio, the plague, leprosy, tuberculosis, malaria, Chagas Disease and Dengue Fever to the United States in alarming numbers." Earlier, the Washington Times and Michelle Malkin tried to actually claim that sickle-cell anemia — a non-communicable disease — was being brought to American shores by immigrants.
Not only are all these claims utterly without foundation, the sources for the majority of them are largely far-right hate groups and pseudo-scientists who are better regarded as kooks.
7. These new Latino immigrants don’t want to learn English and are reluctant to assimilate.
In fact, according to the Pew Hispanic Center:
Nearly all Hispanic adults born in the United States of immigrant parents report they are fluent in English. By contrast, only a small minority of their parents describe themselves as skilled English speakers. This finding of a dramatic increase in English-language ability from one generation of Hispanics to the next emerges from a new analysis of six Pew Hispanic Center surveys conducted this decade among a total of more than 14,000 Latino adults. The surveys show that fewer than one-in-four (23%) Latino immigrants reports being able to speak English very well. However, fully 88% of their U.S.-born adult children report that they speak English very well. Among later generations of Hispanic adults, the figure rises to 94%. Reading ability in English shows a similar trend.
As Justice for Immigrants notes:
The development of English proficiency among non-English speaking immigrants today mirrors that of Nineteenth and early Twentieth century immigration, when masses of Italian, German, and Eastern European immigrants came to America. While first generation, non-English speaking immigrants predictably have lower rates of English proficiency than native speakers, 91% of second generation immigrants are fluent or near fluent English speakers. By the third generation, 97% speak English fluently or near fluently.
The American Immigration Lawyers Association reports:
Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001.
This last point is illustrative of the way a progressive approach to immigration can make more sense and can solve people’s legitimate concerns in a persuasive, common-sense fashion that doesn’t rely either on scapegoating and dehumanization or bogus talking points that only bolster the longstanding prejudices of bigots.
Because I think anyone who’s had experience with the immigrant community can attest there is some slowness to assimilate at work here, and that the sheer size of this wave of immigration, which has created large communities where it’s possible for new immigrants to work and prosper without ever learning English, has a role in this. But the largest single factor in this reluctance is the immigrants’ undocumented status, leaving them in the shadow status of being the embodiment of a kind of dehumanizing cliche: "illegal aliens." As long as these people are forced into the shadows and threatened with deportation, they won’t ever be encouraged to embrace American values and join the culture.
As I’ve discussed previously, when liberals talk about immigration, helping immigrants forge a clear and attainable path to citizenship is an essential cornerstone of their approach — and when they do so, it should be in the context of talking about our shared values as Americans.
As we’ve noted, fundamental human decency has to be the foundation of any positive program of liberal immigration reform. We’ll try tackling that next week.



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I let them know upstairs – this excellent post seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.
So the mysterious disappearing post is back?
Good evening, David!
Good evening dear friends. David I’ll read some or all of that in a moment.
Would anyone like a valentine cookie?
Yeah, this thing took me a lot of time to cobble together, especially with all the links, etc. It was supposed to go up at 6 but I didn’t have it ready till 6:45 or thereabouts. So it went up briefly, we took it down, and now it’s back up with a little bit of breathing room.
Howdy, David and Betsy!
Illegal immigration is a barrel of republican red herrings, in which to submerge Iraq and that $2.5 billion dollars a week of ours that’s illegally immigrating to Mesopotamia.
David – i hope the pups give your post the attention it deserves - they are used to lighter fare in the late nite hours.
What an excellent summary David!
I work with recent immigrants and refugees for a living, and here are two news reports I’ve come across this week:
teen victim of immigration raid addresses Congress
Georgia Teen, a Plaintiff in SPLC Suit, Tells House Subcommittee About Terrifying Immigration Raid
and
Yeah, THESE are the ones we need to deport …
from El Paso News
A Mexican woman who had raised her three nephews in Vado, N.M., for the past 10 years after they were abandoned by their mother turned the children over to the state of Chihuahua after being deported from the United States, Juárez police said Wednesday.
Thank you David…. we will have a speaker at our next DFA meeting next month on the Facts & Myths of Immigration.
Crime and Immigration
Mesa AZ Police Chief op-ed in Arizona Republic(ian)
Sheriff Joe is not happy….. he doesn’t like one of myths busted…
One of my students said to me this week, in response to a question, “Oh no Miss. I am not an immigrant. I came with papers and I will have my green card when I turn 18.”
That’s priceless, but, they need a little more civics lessons…! ;-)
It was well worth the wait. Thanks for another stellar post.
All good points David.
I also wonder about the security canard. Other than the securities industries and the GOP propaganda value who profits from militarizing the border?
I got robocalled the night before super tuesday by sherrif joe. i used disinfectant on my answering machine after playing the message.
Mostly she needed a vocabulary lesson.
Bonne Soir, Ma Cheri! Are ya ever gonna dive again? I know it’s hard to top Quebecois’s Cliff hanger…! 8-)
So, the proportion of crime Latinos are responsible for is about the same as their proportion of the population, and ditto for Anglos. Go figure.
Nice post David.
I’ve noticed a few things that are never mentioned by Congress or talking heads in waxing poetic on immigration:
1) The INS–a subdivision of Mukasey DOJ now, but under a whole parade of AGs has been badly broken. It can take 10-15 years for someone to get through the hoops to legally gain their citizenship. I don’t know how long it took Craig Ferguson, but he seemed to get through the hoops much faster.
2) The immigration courts are badly broken. Many of the so-called “Immigration judges” are attorneys with no experience whatsoever doing immigration litigation. This has resulted in a couple of problems that are huge.
a) They don’t have a clue what they’re doing.
b) Decisions are very inconsistent. For example in the Northern District of Georgia, asylum is granted when the issue of severe harm toward the immigrant is raised in about 3-5% of cases. In the Southern District of Florida, it is granted 90-95% of cases.
A large number of current Immigration judgeships were vetted by a twit named Monica Goodling who was assigned this responsibility at a severely ill DOJ although she had no experience in litigating anything whatsoever –as much as traffic court straight out of a horrible law school. Goodling was vetting for “good Bushies.” There was no correlation between being a “good Bushie” and being an experience, competent attorney.
3) A large number of reprehensible, lazy INS bureaucrats will bully applicants to the degree that they think the applicant has no assistance and is vulnerable. Their behavior changes significantly when they have competent assistancew.
am letting my back still rest up from the weekend in back hell ct. for the time being, you will just have to use your imagination.
I have a 17 yr old student currently sitting in a San Antonio immigrant jail. When he’s sent back to Mexico, he will live as an adult there. Get a job, not finish HS, possibly try to come back. Most of his family is here.
I am so sorry, that guy has cost our county millions. BTW… ya think something hinky that Old Joe received more votes for reelection that McCain in 2004. OMG does he have the brown hate…
Dan Saban is running against him…. GREAT guy
Dan Saban for Sheriff
Heh, I’ll remember Quebecois’ for awhile…! ;-)
Nice report, BTW David. I’ve always wondered how people could so uncritically accept myth #2, when there’s plenty of reason to believe they could be paying taxes and yet not be qualified some of the benefits.
I ask this in the sincerest honesty possible through the Toobz, but the most common “canard” I ever hear by far, from Liberals and conservatives is the simple fact that “illegal immigrants” are indeed illegal. They are breaking the law by being here.
So when we on the Left proclaim our adherence and respect for the Rule of Law, how does this jive with letting people into our country illegally? Is it okay to just pick and choose which laws we think should be enforced? It’s not like we’re talking about driving 5 miles/hr over the speed limit. This is a pretty serious law to violate.
I’ve had trouble coming to grips with this myself, and would be interested in hearing some responses to this central point. I think thiscore issue is what causes some of the confusion among Liberals on this issue, and that’s what people like Rove try to exploit.
Blame Mexican immigrants and their descendants. Starting with Mitt Romney :)
Btw, I liked Boxer’s response to DeMint’s BS in regards to Berkeley today…!
What a travesty…!
I have a problem with the harm done to other countries by NAFTA that forces their citizens to come here to find work. For me some things that are legal are immoral. Other things that are illegal are moral. Sometimes I decide to do what is right and not what is legal. Thorny conundrum.
It would be interesting to see a study on the effect of undocumented workers on the wages in the building trades. At least in my area, is seems that the general contractors hire specialized crews to do specific jobs and has few workers on his payroll. It is my impression that the person in charge of the crew is documented and the majority of the workers are not.
When I was in Colorado, last week, a carpenter’s union was protesting outside of a large condo construction job. The people who were working were Hispanic the union carpenters were not.
What did she say?
Tell me about it.
The big shocker to me when I first started teaching in TX was the number of my 8th graders (all recent immigrants) who never quite managed to enroll in HS, instead going to work full time.
Would Dan be running against that putrid sack of sh*t that forces them to wear pink and live in tents, Maricopa County, IIRC…?
I will no longer be reading Huffington Post on a regular basis. Check this.
I mean, really. I feel like I’m being treated as a dumbfuck.
That was old JD Hayworth’s boogie scare the old Repugs meme…. went to one of his social security townhall (during the SSI bamboosle) and he started going down the road that all those ILLEGALS were going to bankrupt their social security because if they get amnesty then they can start collecting right away.
Oh and I needed a long shower after that…
Just exactly why does Arizona have so many scuzzy politicians?
Sorry. These are the proper links.
http://texbetsy.headonradionet…..-congress/
http://texbetsy.headonradionet…..to-deport/
Essentially, How can one punish an entire City for two city councilors actions…! That was the gist of DeMint’s amendment to a bill, which would divert the monies earmarked for Berkley to the US Marine Corps, of which Parris Isle resides in his state…!
What’s the problem Loo Hoo?
I hear ya. This is why the Repubes have chosen this as one of their main issues right now. It hard to argue for it and not be deemed hypocritical on other issues. Liberals haven’t been able to find consensus on this.
It’s really helpful to break down the other myths like this post does, but without having a clear answer to the basic problem that these immigrants are breaking the law, it’s going to be hard to develop a unified front on this one.
Perhaps there’s an easy answer and that’s why I’m asking.
Mostly I like Barbara Boxer.
My friends who listen to hate radio always say the big deal is that illegal immigrants are ILLEGAL- that they are “breaking the law”. Strange how they have huge respect for “the law” when it comes to some poor dude who crosses a geopolitical boundary so he can feed his family but I never hear a peep outta them when it comes to telecom companies breakin’ the law and spying on us- no emails in my box about how W wants to give those nasty lawbreakers immunity- no siree.
All of it. Blatant bias, freaking tabloid crap. Hillary jealousy. Name it. Might as well read a tabloid. (Sorry, I don’t know the names of grocery tabloids off the top of my head.)
YES…. Dan is a great guy…
Media whore… Sheriff Joe…. tent city, chain gangs, pink underwear, old fashion black & white stripped uniforms, baloney sandwiches two times a day.
AND
MRSA in Tent City which has now been transferred out of the tents.
Just say-What would Ronald Reaguns do? Why give em amnesty, of course.
Me too. Barbara is one of the good guys.
Make him wear pink underwear…! *g*
What do you have against pink underwear?
We know Republicans make little sense and don’t mind being hypocritical, but this immigration issue is dividing Liberals I’m afraid. I’d like to learn a good defense for allowing them to stay.
I can understand amnesty plans, where illegal immigrants who are already here with kids in schools and things like that, can go through a process to get citizenship. But then shouldn’t we strengthen enforcement from this point forward? There’s always going to be problems though with family already here and so on, isn’t there?
I honestly just don’t know how to handle this one.
I bet Rudy wears pink undies.
“Inhumanity Has A Price” is right.
I think that the Native Americans should decide who can stay and go has to go. It is unrealistic, I know, but I mean it.
You mean Sheriff Joes BFF County Attorney Andrew Thomas?
You mean the latest media whore in training?
Joe Arpaio… why do rethugs have torture fetishes?
It’s just not right on a guy…! ;-)
sheriff joe is just following in boosh’s footsteps:
my bold
cause they were beaten by their rethug parents.
Ask McCain that…!
Also, cause when you are not allowed to embrace a healthy sex life then your stimulation comes from a dark place.
Wow. Well put.
My house was built 6 years ago here in North San Diego County. The general contractors were anglo, the subcontractors were anglo, the workers were all hispanics with no ability to speak English.
party of psychopaths
Thanks newtonusr.
It’s plenty consistent in Southern California. Native-born Americans have disappeared from the non-union blue collar jobs like roofers, etc., having been replaced by low-education immigrants from Latin America. Native-born engineers and scientists have been doing fine, their shortage of them having been alieved by an inflow of graduate students from India and China. Draw your own conclusions.
psychopaths = authoritarian mind set.
I’d go freaking buy some pink underpants if the situation warranted it…
A friend of mine in construction said that the illegal immigrants are getting paid much better in the last year or so.
Heh, would ya like to pay three dollars a head of lettuce…?!
I didn’t mean to take this that far off topic except that Sheriff Joe is part of the topic. He racially profiles, he does raids on day labor sites and have nearly deported legal citizens.
An ASU student was at the wrong place & time and was caught in the draggnet. He was legal citizen but only had his student ID on him. He was at the border ready to be deported when someone produced proof of citizenship.
Chandler Raid
This is where I live….
isn’t the term now used ’sociopath’? i think it is a word tailor made for the r’s repression and revulsion party platform.
Its a clown car not pink underpants. no . . wait…
snack #2
KO’s rerun is now starting – for those (like me) who missed his earlier broadcast.
Are you paying less than $3/head…. where?
I already have it on, but for those who can’t stay up that late or don’t get MSNBC, his superb special comment is here: http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..a-fascist/
NO! Like our corporate masters, I’ll not deny the convenience of having people to exploit.
Native Americans can decide who is a member of their nation. A couple of years ago the Oklahoma Cherokee voted to expel the descendants of their former African slaves from the Cherokee Nation.
sweet, thanks
You are advocating a humane answer? Good for you. But keep in mind that the good republicans want water torture.
Fortunately, it looks like the folks are a little more humane than this cabal.
OT: Apparently it’s official. John Lewis switched his superdelegate vote from Clinton to Obama.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talk…..ewis_s.php
I read somewhere else that 5 superdelegates switched today, or at least indicated they were going to switch to Obama. Not sure how accurate that is, but that’s big news if true.
The news article on the Lewis switch is in the news box.
Shitty. I learned recently that Native Americans owned black slaves and didn’t free them after the civil war.
YUCK…. McBush on my TeeVee…. I guess he was on Larry King tonight… you could see forehead wrinkles so there was a huckleberry hound miracle
bwahahahaha McBush
love it
Yes I am. This one has been problematic for me when discussing with others. I read something a while ago where the author made a strong for case for just opening borders up completely and having very minimal enforcement, like only exportation of frequent lawbreakers. Not sure what to think of that, but they made a compelling argument. Can’t remember who it was, but might go searching…
This comment seems to sum it up…
is it possible to have both disorders simultaneously?
on Arpaio, he was the same ‘thug who had that TB victim imprisoned in his infamous jailhouse hospital ward fro 6 months without showers, visitor rights, reading or writing materials or access to media… as far as I know he’s still there.. that case didn’t receive as much media attention as the other case in Atlanta did
I need a remedial on how the new box works when you have time.
The box under the top post on the front page…
just click on a headline.
Hi Loo Hoo!
KO has a diary over at kos…
FISA Special Comment
click on the headline (or click on the more news link). clicking on the headline brings up the fdl post that has a synopsis of the story – and on the left near the bottom of the post is a link to the actual news article.
clicking on more new brings up an fdl news page with all the synopsises (synopsi – errr what is the plural of synposis) and links to the actual news article.
comments can be left on all news posts.
Thanks, newt! I’ll try once again!
Isn’t Artur Davis mostly a Bush Dog? I remember him showing some flashes of brilliance, but then mostly “bending over across the aisle” and getting the Repubs off the rest of the time.
Not sure if I’m confusing him someone else, but if I was Obama I’d want to keep my eye on someone like that. He’s gonna have a lot of people clamoring for his ear.
First of all, we ought to define the problem. David’s post is an answer to many of the GOP’s talking points, but they aren’t really looking for an answer. They are looking for a scapegoat. When the economy goes sour, better to deflect criticism from horrible policies and focus anger on a group of people who have no power at all.
Remember Carol Lam, the USA in San Diego who was fired? Supposedly she was under pressure because she didn’t prosecute enough border cases. But that was really BS. She went after one of the companies that repeatedly hired illegal aliens. She got a guilty plea. The corporate bigwigs almost went to jail – probably would have if Carol Lam had stayed. Now THAT would have sent a message. And it would have had a big impact on other employers who hire undocumented aliens.
But it still wouldn’t have solved the problem. It is an economic problem on both sides of the border. Our side of the border greatly benefits from cheap labor pouring over. The people on the other side who get money sent back benefit too. But there are a lot of downsides. Migrant workers often live in substandard conditions – in shacks they build outside in canyons and hillsides. They are away from home for long periods. Some are depressed and drink too much. Others are taken advantage of by coyotes or cheated by their employers. They can’t report crimes against them because of fear of deportation. It is not a great way to live.
Migrants used to come by almost everyday and ask if I have any work. I have never hired any- preferring to do my own yardwork. But I always offer food. I can’t really afford to hire someone at fair wages, and they don’t want a hand out. Neither of us is comfortable with this compromise. Lately, there have been fewer and fewer people coming by. One old man stopped by recently. I recognize him. He knows I never pay anyone. So I know he must be pretty hungry to ring my bell. He waves his hand across the whole neighborhood and says, “no trabajo”.
Remember the “Little House” stories by Laura Ingalls? A depression drove the Ingalls from their homestead and they had to move to Arkansas. Almonzo went door to door asking for work for over a year. Once he had some meat he was bringing home and a woman asked him for some. He was cutting off a piece for her and Laura begged Almonzo to remember their daughter.
I have never been that desperate. Sure, we had to eat leftovers and top ramenl sometimes but we were never so desperate we had to go door-to-door begging for work or food. The people coming across our border are not illegal, they are human beings. Calling them “illegal” makes it easier to treat them as a non human entity.
I don’t know all the solutions, but we have to start by defining the problem as a human and economic problem, not a legal one.
Mahalo, Katy! I thought this was a particularly poignant moment…
John McCain votes against a ban on waterboarding.
What other principles does he have left that he can throw overboard in his frantic, pathetic effort to become president?
I always enjoy seeing Rachel…!
If Chimpy told McCain to water board himself he would do it.
OT: Gotta love it. Per Glenzilla:
FUCK BIPARTISANSHIP!!!
That was very eloquent…
The issues involve with trade agreements that decimated Mexico’s farmers, privatized their national railroad and allowed for Big Ag to scoop up those farms for pennies (less than a peso)
It has been huge number of employers who would rather have cheap labor vs paying a livable wage so that Americans will do those jobs.
It is the Walmart syndrome…. lower prices… even lower wages..
I won’t dispute that, considering he’s from Bama, but, those flashes of brilliance are brilliant! ;-)
What was it that offended you that I missed Loo Hoo? It was a shame NM was so underequipmented and staffed, and that it took so long.
Was it that the outcome seems shaky and possibly could have gone either way in NM?
Gambling money perhaps?
I know that here in SoCal, the tribes are doing what they can to be pure in deciding who is a tribal member.
It’s a fight.
time for me to get to bed…. see ya tomorrow… nite all
But, he was against waterboarding before he was for it. ;-)
Goodnight, katymine. Thanks for the KO link.
This is probably a canard I should have addressed, but it’s really very simple: The laws that are broken by undocumented immigrants are civil, not criminal laws: that is, it’s no more accurate to call someone who breaks them a “criminal” than it is to do the same to a freeway speeder or a jaywalker. Mind you, the penalty — deportation — is about as harsh as it gets with civil law, but referring to these people as “criminals” or “illegals” is wildly disproportionate to their supposed lawbreaking activity.
Any path to citizenship probably should include some kind of penalty for those who broke laws to either come here or remain here. But these penalties, again, should be proportionate to the actual violation.
Aloha, Katy!
Don’t trust those tribal aliens! Make them go back! ;-)
nite katymine
Hence, they’re not Illegal, just ‘Undocumented’… *g*
KO’s special comment is better the second time around….
g’nite katymine
Suz, I do not have a ”more news” link.
Is it ”Keep up with the news”? I’m just plain stupid.
Thanks for thoughts. I agree enforcement should focus more on the employers who hire them, basically as slave labor. I also am completely onboard with the fact that we’re talking about humans here, and not “illegals.”
I’m worried though that reframing the debate around “people” instead of “illegals” is not going to convince many others who are not already there. I can hear the responses already…”Every felon in jail is a person also, so are we supposed to let them all go and give them amnesty as well?”
I don’t see how we can overlook the legal aspect of it, since that is the core of divide right now. Look at all the hoopla over the telcom immunity debate over the last few months. We’ve been waging entire campaigns to protect the Rule of Law, and how that’s central to the entire American system. Again, how do we defend discarding laws in certain cases and not in others?
How do we compel others to our more lenient viewpoints? Perhaps re-framing as a human and economic issue is a good start, but it’s not going to work on many of the people I talk to about this, and I’m not sure it’ll work even on me entirely.
i missed this before.. dayam, he called bush’s statement ‘crap’. wow!!!
Yes absolutely David. Great point. The fever and the frothing at the mouth of local police forces to go after these people for relatively minor infractions and cost them their family’s stability and bring tragedy on their family given how long it takes for them to gain citizenship and the number of hurdles is absurd.
In some states, basically because the county managers want the huge traffic fine income from the bell shaped curve of people who can least afford to pay them, some of what are minor civil infractions in other states are very minor crminimal traffic violations.
Many local police forces are being trained to convert minor traffic stops into major deportations and long jailings believing they are doing a great service.
in the news box just under the top post on the home page. at the top right of the news box is a link for ‘more news’.
Left tears in my eyes.
I’m guessing our lousy economy is going to handle it. People will not be using undocumented folks considering the money crunch. We are facing a serious re/depression thanks to our government. It’s going to get nasty.
Keith makes a pretty good argument that boosh is, himself, a terrorist.
Some want to give the telecons immunity because they think it is worthwhile to give away constitutional rights in order to create a fascist state where they have more control over “terrorists” and also dissidents.
I think that is a BIG deal. A major law was broken with major democracy altering consequences.
I do not think that crossing a geopolitical boundary in order to provide one’s family with enough food so they do not starve to death is quite in the same category. And let’s remember that there have been migrants crossing the border from before it was even a border. Much of it is not only tolerated- but it is encouraged. If everyone who is undocumented were to be deported, the economy would collapse. The migrants situation is treated as political football-. Nobody really wants to stop it- they just want to toss it around for effect.
he sure did – wow, every time i think he can not do a more powerful special comment, he does one that blows me away. this not only blew me away, i’m sending it to all my r family. payback is a bitch for all those anti hillary/bo emails i get from them.
Ah. Thanks for that important distinction.
I guess my main concern has been to build consensus about this issue in Liberal circles. If we’re able to do that, we’ll be able to dampen the impact it has right now, and take away an issue Republicans have been using to try and “divide and conquer” us.
Perhaps this distinction is the key, along with chrisc’s reframing ideas. Not sure…at first glance I can see many saying, “Oh you’re just playing with semantics…illegal, undocumented…whatever, they’re still breaking a law and deportation is the penalty instead of speeding ticket.” You know, stuff like that, but if as you’re saying, you apply the civil/criminal distinction to their own lives and the laws they’ve broken like speeding or jaywalking, then I could see it working.
I’ll have to work on this now and try it out! Thanks.
Oh yea, that’s a good point too, how the whole concept of a “border” is so silly at it’s core. Are we gonna paint a big white line, like on a football field in those areas where we can’t put up a wall? It’ll be a bitch through the Rockies on the Canadian border. And those damn animals…they never seem to pay attention.
It’s ironic but the company Carol Lam nailed actually had the contract to put up the border fence.
They insisted they didn’t use any undocumented workers on that job.
Yeah, right.
I like your points.
At 34 I was just expressing my pissedoffedness at HuffPo. I don’t have anywhere near the lack of confidence in a Hillary administration that you do. She said her first choice on healthcare is single payer, but that she didn’t think it was workable now, so she would give it up for now until there was support for it.
David, thanks for that clarification. Makes perfect sense to me. Of course, this August I’ll celebrate twelve years of active involvement in civil disobedience and non-violent direct action for eco-defense. From my point of view, peacefully violating criminal laws to preserve our biosphere is OK (talking CD here, not property destruction.)
I read the first part of your three part series with interest and appreciation. Along with other eco-activists, I despised the racists who infiltrated the green/enivro communities and “movement” to push their hate and nativist crap. Glad you called ‘em out.
Nevertheless, we Americans – as a group – are among the most rapacious consumers on the planet [I’m told the citizens of Dubai and the UAE en toto may have aced us out in the global profigacy ratings, but haven’t seen confiriming stats.]
As relocation to the US from less developed nations predicts those taking up residence (and their kids) will draw closer to “American” levels of resource consumption, I can’t deny the fact that undocumented (and documented) immigrants only add to the diproportionate demand that we Americans already place upon global resources and global carrying capacity.
My personal belief is that the most affluent legal immigrants and permanent resident aliens consume the most. I have been told that the ratio of undocumented to “legal” immigrants is so high that – as a group – the (annual flux of) undocumented immigrants raises net global resource consumption more than dors the entire group of documented immigrants/resident aliens admittted to the US each year.
So I’m left with a conclusion which discomfits me and dismays my progressive eco-activist friends: the conclusion that the net effect of undocumented immigration is good for the US economy (in the ways you describe above) yet a net detriment to the biosphere.
If you could address this question (or point me to reputable studies which have sought to assess this question), I wold be most grateful.
Thanks!
I always liked what Molly Ivins had to say on immigrants. Immigrants 101
http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/34256/
My personal belief is that the most affluent legal immigrants and permanent resident aliens consume the most.
Apologies for mangled sentence above.
Intended:
My personal belief is that the US greatly benefits from both documented and undocumented immigrants. The most affluent (legal immigrants and permanent residents) obviously consume more per capita. Those without documents – as a group – tend to consume less per capita than the “papered”. For both groups, migration to the US results in increased per capita resource.