I don’t know if you saw the coverage last night, but if any undecideds were watching in significant numbers, it was absolutely devastating for the GOP.
The contrast between Obama’s speech (here) and St. McCain’s (here) was startling: the tone of the speeches (hope vs. fear), the energy of the audience (rock concert vs. polite applause), and most notably, the visuals (youth vs. Geritol).
I’d love to know what genius in the McCain campaign dreamed up the idea to surround the 71-year old McCain with people older than him like John Warner. He or she has to be an Obama mole. There’s just no other logical explanation. And Tom Davis, another old white guy, was either very nervous or has a serious case of hyperhidrosis. Freak show.
As for his victory speech, that St. McCain really knows how to inspire!
"Hope, my friends, is a powerful thing,” he says. “To encourage a country with only rhetoric rather than sound and proven ideas that trust in the strength and courage of free people is not a promise of hope. It is a platitude.”
Yeah, those sound and proven ideas of St. McCain’s are working out splendidly.
Anyway, the New York Times put the best punctuation on this sad affair.
Mr. McCain is in a much smaller venue than either Mr. Obama, with more than 19,000 people, or Mrs. Clinton, who drew more than 10,000. The McCain audience seems relatively sedate. Fox turns away.
So, I imagine, did most of America.
Related posts:
- Why I Interrupted Bill Clinton’s Speech at Netroots Nation
- Early Morning Swim: Special Rachel Analyzes Obama’s Speech Edition
- Early Morning Swim: Florida GOP Chief Convinced White House Changed School Speech to Appease Him
- Liberal Media Characterizes Obama’s Back to School Speech as “Controversial”
- Wingnuts React to Obama’s Cairo Speech: He’s Just Like Bush! We’re Doomed!
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zed!
It will be a long campaign having to look at this mug for the duree.
casting call from casket dept. the walking dead politically,
Yo Richmond…
Your email just turned up in my inbox…
New drinking game during McStain speeches. Trigger phrase ‘my friends’.
Watching McCain after watching Obama I could think of only one word for McCain : puny
Oh yea, he has no chance. Why there is no point in even bothering with a campaign because the republicans are so weak that there isn’t any way the dems can lose. And it don’t rain in Indianapolis in the summer time.
Yo back!
Jeez we would be passed out within the first fifteen minutes!
“My friends” is the same as “with all due respect”–you’re not a friend and I have no respect!!
Don’t know about the rest of you but I was pretty stunned by how well Huckabee did last night in Va.
This guy is toast (I firmly hope and believe). Nothing more than a Republican token and bellwether for all the corruption and bad ideas that we have had to endure for the last 7 (8?) years.
Yea, and I don’t even drink!
Waxman is about to show a congressional hearing where someone is committing Perjury. Yup. Many between autographs, but I guess we shall see.
McCain’s Victory Speech: Night Of The Living Dead
-night of the living dead on parade.
-stuffed in a coffin 10% more free.
- Greenday
And when there is an attack?
I saw the two speeches on CNN as well, and I just couldn’t believe the contrast. Obama was inspiring and moving, and in the best rhetorical manner moved from serious to rousing and back. He is a master at it, and at the top of his game.
McCain’s speech reminded me of nothing more than a Mafia funeral. Perhaps that is what it is.
Hey, folks. Get your priorities straight. Forget McCain. Forget FISA. The real important stuff just started on CSPAN3: whether Roger Clemens took steroids.
St McCain was a bore. COmpletely uninspired. He reads a bit better than W and can pronounce English words.
No comparison with the dem speakers. The R’s are flat out boring to listen to.
I thought Huckabee was going to win there for a while. If margin is the story then HuckaSquirrel did good.
Who is Roger Clemens? hahahahahaha
OT:
‘Roids perjury / Waxman
Intrade numbers on perjury jail time? Or that both are lying? All three?
Blue Texan, I was at the Kohl Center last night in Madison for the Obama rally. The contrast between what I witnessed and what I watched on TV when we got home was pretty stark (McCain’s speech vs shots of Obama’s/Hillary’s rallies).
Talk about old and tired versus young (even if we weren’t all young!) and full of life… Everyone kept saying it was like the best rock concert they’d been too–or the best Badger sporting event. Lots of students but lots of older folks too. Given the weather (9 degrees?), the crowd size actually surprised me.
McCain still won’t be the answer.
Who is Roger Clemens? hahahahahaha
—-
The low level baseball pitcher about the lie in Congress face.
I agree but that doesn’t mean the American public won’t think so. The right wingers and jihadi’s need each other.
I misread your title as “Night of the Lying Dead.” *g*
Cool. Must’ve been even more dramatic when you saw St. McCain on the teevee.
DEM VOTES REPUB VOTES DEM % REPUB %
WASHINGTON DC 113746 5801 0.95 0.05
MARYLAND 740133 287196 0.72 0.28
VIRGINIA 973873 485245 0.67 0.33
Here are the numbers from last night.
These are the totals cast for each party.
The juxtaposition on MSNBC was pretty startling. For a minute, I had the fear that the two speeches were near enough that the Obama people might charge out to spread democracy and run over the McCain people and their strollers.
Then most people will see that the Republicans failed to prevent both that one and 9/11. They successfully made a positive out of “there haven’t been any attacks on American soil (other than the biggest one in history),” ludicrous as it is. I don’t think they’ll get another do-over, especially in a time when the mood is so heavily against them.
Diddo Specter’s critical engagement with the Patriot’s “spy scandal.” (By the way, no one died, and, it was both widely done and legal then). Good going Specter!
Obama has the great speech advantage as he can turn the numbers and bring out the most new voters (in the primary) and hopefully everyone will vote in the general.
McCain is the weakest speaker by far, but they all have teleprompters (and HuckaSquirrel is a plant now). The debates will be interesting, I think the Democrats will beat the McCain but he does have enough skill to win debates (or come close enough for the spin machine to say he won and was “strong”). I think the VP debates could be a beat down on Republican Destruction/corruption/economic stupidity & Democratic weak-Security/mushroom cloud (depending on if its Obama how he wants his VP to attack R’s overall as a group – when hunting for the R vote/RayGun thing). The pundit wisdom seems to be that the past VP debates were to weak – even though they say irrelevent. Of course they were moderating (with 50 rules from the debate rule bargin committies for the candidates).
We ought start calling it as it is. In addition to being St. John McCain of Iraq and Perpetual War, he is also “The 71 year-old John McCain.” Calling him that is the practice I’ve been seeing in the foreign media, particularly German media, when they report on our campaign.
The 71 year old John McCain. Rolls off the tongue and oughta be a macro on yer word processor.
Donna!
Was I dreaming this morning or did Donna realy win?
Ok, second time today I hope I am wrong. Why do I have so little faith?
LOL. Thats a keeper fantasy memory!
Whoa, I guess Excel doesn’t copy very well.
Bottom Line:
Washington – 95% of votes cast were for dems.
Maryland – 72%
Virginia – 67%
McCrazy’s speech yesterday was so painful to watch! Reading the teleprompter looks really bad.
Blue Texan, love the picture of McCrazy for this post! Another embarrassing shot of this man…
I wonder who Clemens will vote for?
Yes, she did. 60 percent to 39 percent for Wynn.
Redshift at 27: maybe you actually had it right?!!
If I heard the remark correctly, MSNBC commenters said something like, ”If you’re going to give a speech at the same time as Obama, it’s so much easier if you let him go last.” They seemed to be shaking their heads when they said it. Do you think they meant McCain’s speech was anti-climactic? *g*
The Rethugs, especially their rightwing ranters, would just as soon the Dems take over in ‘09. The fetid stew of Bush’s screwups and deliberate destructions of this government will take a long time a-cleanin’ up. And the ranters, especially, expect to clean up bigtime railing against the Dem prez for not getting it done fast enough. I’ll bet Ingraham’s shoppin’ for her new digs in Rush and Coulter’s neighborhood right now….
And Rove, he’s already co-oped Russert’s white board. The media enablers are going to be squeezed out of the goodies by the fat-contract wingnut welfare to be dished out for the Bush minions.
But champions will out. If we’ve the championship hearts to stay strong for the long trail ahead.
Prairie Today: Top Dogs
Assuming there is some sort of attack (and i don’t deny that there may very well be) and the “elections” are de-railed or stalled or whatever, I cannot imagine a scenario in which this person (McCain) could come in to power. The Republican base that’s still drinking the Kool-Aid can’t be more than 40% (that’s my guess with no numbers to back it up).
If there is an election that’s even close to being legal, I believe the people are outraged enough to show up to vote and at least oust the current crop of crooks out the door. McCain will be insignificant. That is not to say that the new boss won’t be like the old boss.
Woo Hoo!!!!!
That sort of tamps down my cynicism a little. It’s almost enough to renew my faith in the Democrat party.
Now if we could get rid of Dirty Harry.
Actually, KO said, immediately after McCain, that it ought to be a new rule for political consultants, never to schedule a speech following Obama.
It was actually kind of shocking, the contrast. Sad. He’s such a mediocre speaker at the best of times (sort of like our current Gov.)
But even Gov Doyle was better than his usual lawyer snooze when introducing Obama.
Obama was very respectful to St. McCain though, and forced the audience to be as well. Then took him to the woodshed.
I don’t think they’ll be delayed. I just think the chicken shit people i this country are so easy to scare that they’ll vote for Mc Cain because he can “protect” them from the boogie man.
DONNA Steny must be saying “where did we go wrong?” I could tell him. This makes it a very good day.
Nice article on Kucinich and the “corporate forces of the party.”
And a big snoopy dance for Donna Edwards.
Didn’t see the McCain speech. Hope Dr. Strangelove didn’t insert the evil axis and war on terra in the speech as well, but again that would be like asking a cat not to look at the birdy.
I am not above ruining another thread with Obama Girl humor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..&NR=1
That wasn’t this thread? Yowwwww.
At least Leiberman wasn’t standing behind McCain this time. Of course, substituting with Warner’s mug was real charming. I guess the Repubs are going to campaign “with the army they have rather than the army they…”
I know Kucinich is weird. But in light of FISA,I believe we need to keep fighting the Harold Ford/Rahm machine. I believe Kucinich needs to stay in Congress. I am glad Donna Edwards won, but it seems like the Rahm machine has its fingers in every pie, no matter where you turn.
Well, I’m hoping (and again, believing) there’s enough of us who think the other way and don’t mind standing up on our hind legs and stepping in to the breach (all these metaphors) to call a halt to the crap that’s currently taking place.
Like most people here, I don’t know who I’m going to vote for yet, and I’m really incensed that “Super Delegates” are the one’s who get to choose the Dem nominee. But the fat lady isn’t even warming up yet. This is a long way from over.
Was it? I can’t remember, it is either too early or too late (been up since 2:00 attempting to finish some work).
Time is a westen concept.
Western *g*
OT: Clemens has been getting calls from people who have help the highest office in our land.
St. McCain might be in the succession order mandated by secret continuity
of government executive orders following another “attack”. I am speculating on this, but what else could be the source of his and the
Republicans confidence in the face of the turnout numbers on the Democratic
side. That and the chickenshirt factor already mentioned, ht raven, make
you wonder if it is all beltway kool-aid or something worse… night of the
living dead is the best description of them, absolutely.
Don’t start drinking your own Kool-Aid
The Geritol drinkers vote in big numbers.
Yes I would like to see a rout of the Rethugs this fall but don’t think for one moment that fear of the unknown (Obama) and the know (McCain) does not have an impact on voters.
Remember what LBJ said: Regardless of the polls run like your 20 point behind until the election is over.
My reaction to McCain’s speech (which I only noticed because it sounded like Shrub, when I was in the next room hearing bits): ZZZzzzzzz ….
Obama’s speech was more like ‘Rise and shine: we have work to do and it’s going to be fun!’
fuck em if they can’t take a joke
I hope the Democrats make an ad of McBush thanking McCaca on the dais and then showing the McCaca speech.
-G
Time to begin thinking about the October surprise.
Roger that. Background information on the COG is easy to find, it ain’t
kool-aid unfortunately, and I was speculating… yeah, what you said.
Passing along Joe Wilson’s comments @ HuffPo
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..86355.html
Raven, not to beat a dead horse, or one ready for the glue factory, but the GOP-ers tried that exact strategy in 2006.
They took out all of the stops..’white flag of surrender….we’ll be hit and hit hard……’
It didn’t work. That stuff has reached a saturation point with many Americans…..but not ALL Americans.
-G
On another site someone suggested John McCain be renamed John McWar, for he has said there will be more wars, presumably in any future McCain administration and he has said the U.S military could be in Iraq for 100 years! What makes that comment irresponsible is that as a country we have not had troops that long anywhere! So John McWar has decided 100 years is o.k. He may already be failing the test of leadership.
That’s what Chris Matthews said–don’t give a speech after Obama, you’ll lose…
Hey, I hope I’m wrong. In the words of Firesign Theater “Give em a light and they’ll follow it anywhere”!
It may be that the terrsts ralize they may have reached a point of dimminishing returns on incidents within the U.S.. They got more out of 9/11 than they could ever have hoped for: U.S. alienates allies and rest of the world, invades and uninvolved country and overthrows and enemy of Osamma, and drives itself into debt approaching that of the USSR before collapse, weakens its military to a point where it cannot commit anywhere else and is near breaking, and further divides the American people. All for a few hundred thousand and 19 “martyrs.”
But, the U.S. really has insufficient conventional force to react to a new incident. The outraged reaction would likely be nuclear, and the southern half of Pakistan would be off limits of humans for a while. Particularly, if it helps elect a Cheney like administration. I hope they appreciate the seriousness.
Get your threads straight…*g*
Prairie Sunshine at #43
February 13th, 2008 at 7:24 am
”Prairie Today: Top Dogs”
I was wondering when someone was going to mention this! We need the Snoopy dog with the Snoopy Dance!
Good morning. It was nice to wake up to a Donna Edwards win. After a week of gloom and doom, this news was a fresh breeze.
I listened to both Obama and McCain last night. All I can say is before I subject myself to one more painful speech by McCain you will have to pay me. It is torture. In a nutshell, McCain sucks like a vampire. In fact, his supporters looked like he fed on them and they now zombielike cheered. Poor things!
This dates you. I actually think we’re the same age…
Edit/spellcheck badly needed, but it’s too late. Sorry.
Sucks doesn’t it?
I’m curious what folks think of that Wilson article Diane linked to above.
That might be a reason for the cable cuts that isolated areas in the ME.
The neocons have been salivating for a “reason” to use nukes since the
early sixties. Once that barrier is down, we might find out who has them
the hard way.
Soon enough, McCain’s head will be featured in the new versions of “Futurama” Only heads that have said really interesting things get so honored. Oh the arsenal of quips.
Westen – I like that – and contracts :-(
Raven, your pessimism is warranted, especially after witnessing the politcal landscape for the past few decades. But, nothing lasts forever and we are witnessing the death of whatever incarnation the GOP was for the past few decades.
This will likely be a 1932 style election.
The real fighting will begin when the shit hits the fan and we have to keep people on board thorugh the hard slog of cleaning up Bush’s shitpile.
-G
And talk about inappropriate interruptus – was last night’s news cut away from Obama mid speech to put on McCain’s speech. Cold shower AND chalk on the black board.
I’ve got all the respect in the world for Mr.& Mrs. Wilson and always will, but I have to respectfully disagree with his conclusion.
For all of her experience and readiness, Hillary Clinton voted for this war.
End of story.
Should she win the nomination, I’ll vote for her with no problem, but her war vote is a problem.
I think Wilson is being loyal to Hill. I laos think that Obama is far from perfect and his record and past statements has some troubling things, to say the least.
However, I sense that history will push him in the right direction and that he’s smart enough to see where the people want to go with our government and lead the fight.
Hillary could do this as well, but as far as electability, Obi seems to be inspiring more support and Hill.
What happens in the future is the unknown. It’s as Rummy said the known unknown.
I hope that the dems don’t run to the center and govern right of center. ICK
Organic George at #61
February 13th, 2008 at 7:42 am
”Remember what LBJ said: Regardless of the polls run like your 20 point behind until the election is over.”
Is that why LBJ quit when the polls showed he would be unlikely to win due to the war?
Joe Wilson’s phrase “vapid rhetoric will not withstand the winds of November” speaks to what I’ve been feeling about Obama.
Yep. As I said in a thread last night, MSM is a little confused about what to do with Obama at this point…
Congrats to Donna on her very excellent win. Question: How many dem primaries has the progressive candidate won against an entrenched old-school dem? I can think of Ned Lamont, and know that many of our candidates did go on to win seats last fall, but we have lost some good guys too along the way.
Again, great going Donna.
Second that.
And the right wing noise machine is going to pile on so hard it will make the Clinton witch hunt look like a love fest.
I figured out why the house is holding hearings on steroids among high profile sports figures; how else would they get to see Roger Clemens up close and personal?
On this they are spending tax payer money and using up valuable time! Could we discuss impeachment, instead?
Wilson is a seasoned professional and through bitter experience somewhat
cautious about the Obama phenomenon as being more of a risk than an HRC
administration. The other side of the equation is that there is less
chance of a clean break with past positions and the DLC mindset of
Republican Lite with HRC… this superdelegate thing is another DLC gift
to democracy like the electoral college. We need to move on, been on high
center too long, suns going down.
LBJ’s conscience finally got the best of him. Vietnam haunted him for the rest of his life, as well it should.
Politically oratory is not supposed to be wonky policy speeches. It’s meant to inspire people to vote in this case.
His website has the meat.
Joe Wilson is a republican, or was one. Where was his head at back then? What happened? Maybe he’s confused a bit?
So ageism is showing it’s ugly head here now, ‘eh?
Look, lots of ways to attack McCain besides the age card. Remember, were one helluva voting bloc.
And getting bigger. So stuff the crap about youth vs Geritol.
Youth is better, right?
Wrong.
Three speeches last night…Clinton’s ‘what I can do for you’ sounded and looked like inside Washington…and her continual head nodding as if she is the teacher is absolutely the picture of why she will not be the nominee. On tv it looked so bad that the networks ran from it as fast as they could.
Obama comes out and raises the level of oratory and intelligence back to where the candidate respects the voter…not lectures them. Good speech…not a ‘I had a dream’ but good, made you think, and by far the highlight of the night.
Then comes McCain…oh lord…soft…no emotion…an old man giving an old man’s speech surrounded by old people….you could hear the remote buttons being hit across the nation to change channels.
Obviously the ’smarter’ GOP candidates have given up on 2008…McCain is the token…’well we have to run somebody!’…save the money for 2012.
What is worrisome is that the GOP fringe will attack all the way thru the election…not directly because they don’t want to lose even more seats in the House and Senate…but from the shadows which is their unbeatable skill…to help with local and state races where they think an attack on the national candidate will help. They will attack on gender and the 90’s and on race….while waving the flag…and it will be ugly….but it may…just may…have the opposite effect of galvinizing voters to stand up and yell
I really agree about obama having some troubling elements of both his personality and his ‘reach across the aisle’ rhetoric. But America needs a new face. Hillary can do great good in the Senate and I hope she continues to work hard on the issues to help America. We need Obama, and Hillary and Bill to try and mend this mess that Bush has made.
We will all be furious with Obama at times if he is elected President. But a new face is needed and he is the best we can obtain for now. He will get the ball rolling (or stop the ball from rolling off the total destruction cliff) in the right direction, or at least a better direction.
Always look forward is my motto. But never, EVER, forget the lessons of the past. Nor for responsibility for past blunders to be ascertained.
That’s one of the real differences between LBJ, a President really from Texas, and W, a President pretending to be from Texas. Bush is conscience-free.
Don’t know about his party affliation over his lifetime. Do remember that Wilson was a career diplomat who worked in both R & D Admins. That used to be the way it was prior to Gingrich & the R mob.
Biodun at #76
February 13th, 2008 at 7:56 am
&
Raven at #78
February 13th, 2008 at 7:58 am
I think I’m you guys’ age, and yes it does suck!
Good article. Since Joe Wilson turned out to be downright prophetic on the Iraq war and suffered for it along with his wife, I can’t help but think he might be right on.
LOL, Kitt! Hope you don’t mind if I use that.
It’s just my opinion, but I think it’s all over for Hillary. Obama has the MOMENTUM and that’s very persuasive for voters. They want to vote for a winner, otherwise they feel like they are wasting a vote.
Joe Wilson has been a frequent visitor to FDL. He is more conservative than I am, but he is incredibly rational and a standup guy. I hate to see his views discounted, because he is not saying (yet again) what people want to hear.
Hillary seems like a good Senator. I wish she’d be happy with that and work to replace Harry Reid. She might be a great Majority Leader.
Here is a reason why I have been lurking at FDL. I find it disgusting that every person in the blogosphere I respect who decides to take on Obama’s record is automatically called a shill by commenters. That includes Larry Johnson, Taylor Marsh, Joe Wilson and many others. It’s offensive.
Later . . .
Yes! And that is what makes it interesting. It seems to me that alot of the right wing news people -Russert, Williams, Tweety, etc. genuinely like him and enjoy engaging with him about various issues. It makes it harder for them to go for the jugular. Clearly this will not last long, but it is a refreshing change.
Yes, I think she is a skilled, moderate Senator, and if not Leader, she would be a good Judiciary Chair.
Clinton Ex-Campaign Manager Backs Obama
I haven’t heard that here much frankly. For example, I have been an Obama supporter from the outset but (if I have time :-0)I am happy to discuss the merits and problems with every at all. In the end, however, we need one candidate.
Despite his public exhortations for the war, LBJ never believed the war
could be won, but believed ” Westy would never lie to me. ” He found out
the hard way that the army was wrong and chose not to run like he was
20 points ahead in 1968. The war killed the Great Society, he had
enough conscience to be haunted by 1963-1969.
More to Mui: My own take on Hillary’s candidacy is that she made a mistake following the DCCC formula of putting the bulk of her money into consultation (polls) rather then direct advertising (as per a Washington Post article a bit ago). Also, following DCCC she relied too much on party insiders in each state rather than popular vote/engagement. She also literally (well almost) blew through 150 million dollars, which in my view is irresponsible ($500,000 for parking bills means one’s eye is not on the ball). And finally, from the outset she seems to have relied on an ineffectual campaign staff insisting on loyalty rather than effective management. This speaks volumes about the DCCC and I bet we will see some changes.
Yes, the atmosphere & tactics here do seem to have assumed a R-like tone.
I read Joe Wilson’t interesting memoir re his diplomatic career and what he didn’t find in Niger.
He was always a Republican until Bush/Cheney betrayed him. I don’t know what he did about registration after that.
Sweet thank you from Donna Edwards on Kos http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..735/455916
ot
FISA debate starting up on CSPAN 1
I never read Redstate or the other blogs on the other side. But I honestly think that if we have had enough sleep (i.e. not after a late superbowl or late election returns) we are pretty open and cordial. And, if not, there is always Kiddo who comes in to show us a better way!
I must confess to some confusion as to the lack of love for Sen. Obama here.
I’ve been lurking here since before Fitz brought the indictment, and a constant theme here has been opposition to this godforsaken war, campaign finance reform, and politicians who promote a progressive agenda.
Now comes a candidate who is bright, articulate and by repuglican account, has one of the most liberal voting records in congress.
He is running an excellent campaign with a very upbeat and positive message,
yet I get the feeling most here would prefer Sen. Clinton.
Again, that’s fine- both would be an improvement over the den of thieves on the other side, but why so little enthusiasm for Mr. Obama?
I suspect I am older (65). I agree that McCain’s age is a concern, but look at his mother, still going strong in her 90s.
But I agree that we should cut the age comments — lump them in with haircuts and cleavage — and focus on the ISSUES here.
Just my $0.02.
McCain is the sacrificial lamb for the Republicans, and the poor guy doesn’t even realize it.
He’s going to find it especially difficult to beat the Dream Ticket…
There’s a really cool video circulating regarding the dream ticket, called the Dream Ticket Duet. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFtRxubRyA
What do you guys think? I support the dream ticket, up or down.
the mantra when all else fails
supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court
supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court
supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court supreme court
Sorry eCAHN, I didn’t mean to get you involved in that outburst. You’ll have to excuse me. see you soon.
I think a lot of people here are down to their second and third choices with the remaining Dem candidates, so maybe enthusiasm is a bit much to ask for. Many have not made up their minds. Of those that have decided, my guess is that the majority have decided to support Obama.
Wilson makes some excellent points. I happen to agree with something I heard his wife say last night-we, as Democrats, have an embarassment of riches. We have two excellent candidates, vastly different in style and tone, but both far better than the alternatives. Obama is inspiring. Clinton is a technocrat. Either would do a far superior job to what has passed for governing in the US for the last 7 years, and I will happily support and work for whichever comes out ahead. Wilson didn’t have to use the word “vapid”-but he otherwise makes a very cogent case for the candidate of his choice.
I’ll start to dream again once I get that thought out of my head.
It’s the DemocratIC Party. We need to stop advancing Repube talking points. This has been one for a time, and even William F. Buckley refused to use it many years ago since he thought it was too juvenile.
http://www.newyorker.com/archi….._hertzberg
more here…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(phrase)
Pass it on.
Fern at #79
February 13th, 2008 at 7:58 am
”I’m curious what folks think of that Wilson article Diane linked to above.”
I’ve just read about half of the article and my take is that Joe is a Hillary supporter for personal reasons, and he’s entitled to his opinion, as are we all.
My second take on the article is that I wonder if Joe has ever heard of the term, ”playing possum?” I think maybe Obama is better at that game than he’s being given credit for. If you play like a rube in some circumstances, then they’ll never see it coming when you come out. I’m surprised, as a diplomat, Joe doesn’t know that!
I feel the heatd atmosphere @ FDL, and this has been my home for a couple years. It seems like our little rational community has become an emotional battleground for Obama v. Hillary.
Ugh. The Wiki has much more but the link didn’t translate. Just search “Democrat party wiki”
I think the real problem for McCain’s age (outside of electability against a younger more energetic (and articulate!) candidate is that it is unlikely that he will/can run for another 4 year term, so his candidacy is disadvantageous for the Republicans who would have to find another candidate and primary them.
And Obama is tough enough and smart enough to be, right now, kicking Hillary’s ass. So much for not being able to fight.
I think that in this case McCain’s age is revelant. We do not want another Reagan(affable, but not all there).
Re: STTPinOhio @121:
I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but while I prefer Obama for several reasons over any other candidate, I am still reserved to give a 100 percent commitment. At this time, he gets my vote. Maybe next week, he’ll say something stupid and I’ll change my mind. The important thing is to not guarantee any candidate votes. That way, they are trying harder to sway me. In the mean time, I don’t have to compromise my own ethics or views by getting behind a candidate, then realizing the candidate does not represent me.
OT Republican:
Trainer you used to lie about Steroids and Roger still does…how can we trust you? The guys is the circus. God, I can’t belive the dinosaurs that work in the Congress.
I’m all for both of them being liars but what is with the partisan divide in the committe…training for real hearings that will never occur.
To me, the most interesting thing of the recent 60 minute interview with Obama was his statement that he was accused of being too professorial at the outset (basically putting people to sleep). So, he changed. That said, if you didn’t hate Katie Couric before her interview with Hillary, you have to now. And, alas, Hillary fell into the mundane too readily – the whole tea not coffee bit, and hydrating with water – not really presidential.
Republican are for bidness and the meme if it’s good for bdiness it’s good for those who benefit.
They could care less about the lower classes.
I don’t trust the basic republican premise and those with an R behind their name. They may support some issues OK, but their raison d’etre is pure classicism.
There’s a balance that needs to be found between avoiding age-ism and denying that people’s capacities can deteriorate as they age. And there have been enough descriptions of personality change in McCain that one has to wonder about his health and possible cognitive deterioration.
McCain, the panderick
Are we being ’set up’?
Here is a reason why I have been lurking at FDL. I find it disgusting that every person in the blogosphere I respect who decides to take on Obama’s record is automatically called a shill by commenters. That includes Larry Johnson, Taylor Marsh, Joe Wilson and many others. It’s offensive.
Later . . .
—-
I am more disappointed with the mandates on both sides. It seems that between Clinton and Obama supporters what is good for the goose is never good for the gander, and the pot is always calling the kettle black.
From someone who steps back on both (and can see things like Clinton getting a media bullet just like Edwards) candidates its very clear the support of both sides on all blogs, and both sides having poor arguments that they will not use on their own team.
Its not funny of course.
tw3k
david wilhelm, hmmmmmmm……seems like a nice enough guy, good looking, pleasant enough……..
BUT
well, he’s known around these parts………
google lake snowden albany ohio hocking college
there is a lake here that he and a pal tried to develop and make private.
a girl at athens messenger wrote some good articles about it.
it is a public lake, created for water use, many families were ’bought out’ and relocated to make it, now owned by hocking college, long story, it’s in the deed that it remain public access land…….
they tried to thwart that.
one of my friends was directly involved in fighting it.
the locals here even turned out to fight it.
the kind that don’t do that.
you’d a thought someone was trying to take away their rights to own a gun.
the developers pulled out—said that all they were trying to do was bring jobs here……uh huh, waitressing and a cook…….meanwhile, noone would have had access to the best lake in se ohio to camp or fish anymore.
and a corporation would be profiting from public lands, big time…….
they acted like they were the only solution…..we didn’t buy it.
that’s david wilhelm. democrat.
back to shoveling snow…….
Same here. I’ve been bringing this up around here since before Obama even declared. He’s done some really cool things along the way that we’ve always championed. (I remember when 20-30 comments was considered a popular thread in the blogspot era).
Some have been ignoring all these good things, and getting all worked up over his “centrist” moves. It was really bad when comparing Edwards and Obama. It’s great to be a sort of check and balance for politicians, but it should be spread evenly I think.
I can especially understand the support of Hillary given the incredibly sexist society we live in. Her candidacy is bringing a lot of it to the fore, and it is troubling.
It does seem like people are coming together behind Obama after all this, which is encouraging. It does seem that his campaign did help Donna Edwards a lot last night (WHOO!), even though it was such a blowout she probably didn’t even need the Obama bump, which is also encouraging. more and BETTER!
Side-by-side record examination is the only way. I like a good policy discussion so I am glad when they bring up either of their records but it would be better to bring up both.
Unfortunately it’s not possible to discuss the two candidates reasonably. One has a long record with well known warts. The other is a blank slate for the most part. The asymmetry means that the standard discussion is: Hillary, wart, wart, wart. Obama, hope, hope, hope. I don’t find that enlightening.
Fern at #134
February 13th, 2008 at 8:41 am
”And Obama is tough enough and smart enough to be, right now, kicking Hillary’s ass. So much for not being able to fight.”
Yeah, I thought that, too!
with democrats like that, who needs neocons.
you know, I’m gonna tell you the strategy both Obama and Hillary have to strart using immediately, and which ever does it more effectively WILL win the nomination…they will
whenever McCain opens his mouth, both Hillary or Obama have to start laughing at what he says, demean the man and his rhetoric
when he says;
“the democrats don’t know anything about military strategy if they say we have to leave”
the democrats need to laugh at that very statement with;
“that is a bizarre statement coming from McCain and either he knows better and and thinks we are idiots or he doesn’t know better and actually believes occupying a country that wants us out is a good somehow good for this nation”
and when he brings up the tax give aways by the bush administration they have to answer;
“is he out of his mind?…the bush administration gave middle class assets to his wealthy friends, is McCain actually saying he thinks that was a GOOD thing? I know he admitted he doesn’t know much about the economy but that is a juvenile, irresponsible thing to say and it’s frightening he wants to make those give aways permanent.
I’ll tell this to middle class and lower class Americans;
If you want all the assets your grandparents and parents invested for you to go to the wealthy friends of these supposed republicans, then go right ahead and vote for another one, you will get exactly what they are telling you, they will give your assets to their wealthy friends”
you see, mccain is already on the attack against the democrats, his entire campaign will be to attack the policies of the demcratic party and scare everyone he can into voting for him
we have to scare them back with MORE fear of another administration that does what the bush administration as done
they want to campaign on fear?
we can scare the shit out of them for even THINKING about voting for a repukelican
and i must add to my comment—that david wilhelm and the other man, sorry, can’t remember his name, were VERY GRACIOUS in attending public meetings, hearings, etc……..even agreed to and showed up for panels that included fish and wildlife service, hocking college, and people who interpreted the original land agreement legally, etc……….
they were very gracious about that.
but everything else they were trying to do was slimy as hell.
Here is an odd thing from someone not sure of who is the best candidate standing – I would like to see Clinton as as leader of the Senate (in part because of how weak our leaders there are), but not Obama so much. At the same time almost think that I would prefer Obama as President and not leader of the Sentate. So that really probably means I would prefer Clinton. I really just don’t know. I hope they get a chance to debate it out and we get the best person.
I really do wonder if they will move back from the right at all once they are finally in the WH (for at least 4 years, I guess there is always re-election; and now after Bush II getting 8 years you really gotta win the second term!).
I don’t know the primary is wierd. It seemed like a big waste of time there for a while, and it may be yet. But I do hope they trot out the records (yea, nay, present, and not-present). Please.
He reaped the benefits of the Tet offensive that happened in early 1968. I think it bothered him personally. A lot.
True confessions. Yep. I have less energy than when I was younger. No kidding myself. And I’m very active. I can pull myself together an look good but I have some serious considerations.
I would rather see older statesmen in a prominent role that requires wisdom. Carter set an excellent example. There is a different type of energy that comes with age that is different from raw, splattered energy of youth. I don’t object to a president being under sixty-five. I do have questions about when they exceed sixty-five. Every year your physical self is harder and harder to deal with. McCain looks hunched and tired. Like “what’s-his-name” who ran on the Repug ticket a couple of months ago, oh yes, Freddie.
I have not seen any comment derogatory of Wilson, the man is a hero
in these parts… his endorsement of HRC is food for thought, a final
verdict on the candidates is not immediate. His comments and others
will be heard, but each person must reach their own conclusion when
the time comes, let it play out, back the winner in the fall.
Oh yea, Legz Couric is an absolute embarrassment. My wife, who is a as chill as they come, basically had the last straw with that Hillary interview and almost threw her dinner at the TV. The John and Elizabeth Edwards one was bad enough, but to ask a leading Presidential candidate and former First Lady if she was called “Ms. Fridgidaire” in high school is inexcusable. Grounds for termination! Wanna talk about sexist…
Legz also kept asking about Obama. Between the sexist stuff and all the Obama talk, I must say I was surprised at how poorly Hillary handled these questions. She should’ve and could’ve turned them right back to talk about why she’s better, and the refridge talk should’nt been called out right on the spot. “I don’t think that’s an appropiate question Katie…” or some such thing. Yet, Hillary just played along through all of that.
I thought she was the one who could handle the Machine.
Does anyone here think Obama would make bad choices for the US Supreme Court? Personally, I don’t think he will. His wife Michelle wouldn’t let him set back the woman’s movement 150 years.
Just throwing this question out because I’ve been shoveling snow for 2 hours (got it all done and then the plow truck came by and added another 18 inches at the beginning of the driveway…UGH!) and my brain is frozen. It’s the only comment I can type out right now…
*makes note to self*
OT: Such a waste of time, the Clemens hearing is all a pathetic dry run for other investigation where the sides split it up and does nothing.
What is the Clinton and Obama stand on pardons? And what Bush II will do with pardons? I would also love to see 10% of the congress on investigation starting Feb-2009, and an VP/AG like Edwards (yes, in the flesh – he could do it). The econmic advisors on both sides are interesting (both for main stream stuff, membership to certain clubs/groups/companies, and some of their more novel ideas).
This is absolutely correct. This is why there is a AQ sanctuary in Pakistan, no end in sight in Iraq, and no lid on Saudi funding of the same.
Raven, you are the man. *g*
Understood. I’m down to my third candidate as well, (Gore then Edwards).
Re: Amb. Wilson, as a career diplomat he’s part of the Washington establishment almost by definition, and Sen. Clinton is obviously the establishment candidate. No real surprise there, and certainly no animosity here because his views don’t match with mine.
Joe Wilson will always be seen by me as an American hero for having the courage to do what he did when he did it.
Off on the business of the Queen. See everyone later.
I have watched the blog support Hillary. When I was undecided after Edwards dropped out, I got no answers to my questions and I still dont understand how someone who has Evan Bayh as her spokesman would be the best choice. I dont understand this blogs choice for Hillary.
I am for Obama now. He showed up for the vote yesterday. He has answers and policies that I like, although not all of them He is bringing the young to politics, including my daughter.
So FDL..why Hillary?
Nah, I’m nuts!
It should have and I believe it did, he died a tormented man. The
revisionist view of Tet now is of a lost US victory through lack of
will to persue victory… but that is what Nixon did… it never stops.
whenever McCain opens his mouth, both Hillary or Obama have to start laughing at what he says, demean the man and his rhetoric
—-
I don’t really like that (see laughing at DK by Obama and others contrary to MSNBC reporting yesterday, and laughing at Paul as well as calling him hitler). I think it needs to be more of the shanks like Obama did on Mitt re his campaign “don’t think he is getting a very good return on his investment.” ~ I like mine.
I would stay a bit away from the dotting “old” / crazy fool stuff as well – more better to go after him as a permanant Fedral DC fixture with bad ideas and no ability or ideas to make it better.
Hillary doesn’t want her records from the 1990’s made public and Obama is outspoken about transparency in government. Which one would you think would be for pardoning and which one wouldn’t?
Not really an answer but touches upon the issue. [h/t CHS & AFJ]
The right wingers and the jihadis are each other.
when i say “laugh in the face”, I don’t mean out loud, I mean they have to make the claims of the man look as rediculous as they are
the obama answer to mitt running the government the way he runs a bussiness was excellant and it gave him incredible air time…free air time
the republicans will get more air time then the democrats of the consolidated corporate ownership of the media
these are fools running for office on the republican side and if we give any of their claims a shred of play it will look like there is an opinion…there is no opinion, the fact is what mccain claims is bullcrap and that’s exactly what we have to make clear when we respond to that bullcrap
roger that
Ya know, I tried to follow along with Marsh and Johnson since I’ve liked them a lot up to this point, but their critiques are often completely unreasonable, and could equally be applied to Clinton as much or more in some cases. One of Larry’s recent ones, and I think I found the link through one of your comments, was largely sourced from info that originated from places like Newsmax and Drudge. Most of Larry’s links to back up the outlandish claims in that article didn’t work and were to some unheard of organization.
The crux of the “story” was that Obama might be willing to support genocide in Kenya since his cousin is one of the candidates, and that Obama was naive about the issues involved there. What’s ironic is that I had just finished reading the chapter in Obama’s “Dreams” book where he talked about going to Kenya, and walked away be amazed at how well he understood the dynamics of the region. To call him naive is rather silly.
It’s a question of balance. Of course vet all you want, and I’m even glad LHP and the ChiTrib have been looking into Rezko, but eventually there needs to be proof for outlandish accusations.
Jim Webb thinks so too.
I have to admit (even as a youngster) that the remarks making fun of his age (e.g.’grandpa’ etc.) makes me uncomfortable. Do I have concerns about someone his age becoming president? Yes and it is a valid concern as his VP choice would be an important matter. I worry that seniors would feel disrespected with all these jokes and shots at McCain based on his age. We have plenty to pick on him about anyway (the war, FISA, economy, he is a republican, etc.)
Anywho, I will say that his (McCain) speech was like watching paint dry and certainly was visually homogeneous (okay and they all look constipated)
Yea but the shots at his age are directly related to whether or not he’d make it through a term.
I have read that, and in spite of the man’s experience base in combat,
I think he is wrong… besides it was irrelevant, Clauswitz would agree
with Pham Van Dong on that.
His age and whether he would make it through one term is a legitimate concern (in my opinion) but to make fun of him or attack him because of his age instead of his record is ageism and it’s a cheap shot.
Powerful video! Thanks for sharing. :-)
It is more of an attack on the age of his ideas than his age… the
visual impression of all that tired DC elite together speaks to that
aspect of it primarily, he can take care of himself.
It can be a dangerous tactic to employ ageistic tactics, especially now that the first baby boomers are drawing Social Security checks starting this year.
Marsh and Johnson are have questionable progressive bona fides. I don’t trust them and they are writing some very nasty stuff.
Anyone who was in the CIA has a lot of splainin to do.
I hope everyone remembers that McCain MUST be treated with the dignity that befits his years and service to the country. There will be no surer way to fire up the rethuglican base and independents than to start sliming McCain. It will give him much more ammunition than he would otherwise enjoy.
I often wonder if having been a grunt gives you some special knowledge of the overall situation. Seeing what they saw, doing what they had to do and living that way might sort of color their perspective.
Let Ted Sampley and the other right-wing nuts do that.
Exactly
McCain slogan for Iraq:
“Save the date, we won’t be late!
Out of Iraq by 20-0-0-8!
The ten thousand year war! Hurrah!’
I have read a couple of Webb’s books and understand his need to believe
that what he went through was not for nothing and that he could have won.
Marines are known to be hardheaded, but the total absence of a viable
SVN government actually supported by the people made “victory” a moot
point, there was one Vietnam, before the French, after the French,
before US, and after… the Chinese found out when they invaded after
we left. The Army and Marines were looking to perfect their new mission
of counterinsurgency in the nuclear age dominated by the Navy and Air
Force, Webb was a practicioner of the trade, it just did not work and
does not now, 4th generation assymetrical warfare is the new name for
the same old game, same result. We need another foreign policy.
yeah, it just doesn’t GET a whole lot dumber than that! what a waste of our money!
sheeeeeeesh
Maybe they are meant that way (but I’m not sure I believe that), but they are often not stated that way. Calling someone “Grandpa” and “old man” is ageism, just like calling Hillary “girl” (which has been pretty emphatically shut down here). It adds nothing to the rational discourse.
Fuck’em if they can’t take a joke, eh compadre?
I have heard that as well but I have also heard remarks that had were targeted at him strictly because of his age, not because he represents the old guard of politics. If the criticism is framed around he as a representative or symbolic of this old style of politics, great frame it as so but just calling him, ‘gramps’ or making Geritol comments doesn’t quite bring McCain’s style or representation of politics to mind.
Chew on Blue Texan about it then… that was the frame of the thread,
like it or not.
I was listening to NPR last night, and heard Mara Liasson (who’s worked for Fox News for 10 years in addition to her NPR gig) raving about McCain’s speech, thinking it was a great shot at Obama, and also, amazingly, talking about how it was setting up McCain for a campaign from the center. Yes, I kid you not, the center.
Perhaps to a Fox News person or a Broderite, McCain’s idea that staying in Iraq forever and not hoping for anything better is the mature adult position is centrist.
A perfect illustration of the beltway kool-aid kidz rallying behind
their candidate… if they try to sell that nationwide it may be a
much harder sell than to the amen corner at the house of Murdoch.
I’m not chewing on anyone and I wasn’t targeting anyone, I was just voicing an opinion. Take it in the spirit that is was offered.
Ah yes, good to hear that NRP (National Propaganda for the Right-wing) is still sensitive to the important issues.
I made this point last night, but I think it bears repeating. I watched McCain’s speech, painful as it was and trying not to laugh. He made a point I found interesting, however. He SAID, he would not speak only to those who agreed with him, which I presumed to mean he would do away with “free speech zones”. Now, I’m a person who was born in a country that is, EVERY SQUARE FOOT, a FREE SPEECH ZONE. I think it’s worth noting that I haven’t heard either Obama or Clinton address that issue. I hope they do as we move along in this election.
My point is not that I would EVER support McCain. I wouldn’t! But some of his statements last night had relevance on issues and topics that the others have not broached. Yet. And I recall Biden’s words, when he said that John McCain “is the most experienced and tested candidate running in this election. But HE’S WRONG”. (NOT a direct quote, but the message is intact.)
So, sorry to repeat myself, but I think it’s a good idea to listen, if you can get through it without snoozing, to what any opponent is saying. What he’s saying is going to resonate with those who actually intend to vote for him. He’s NOT a light weight opponent just because he lacks a dynamic punch in his message. I don’t want to underestimate him! It would be disastrous to this nation if he actually won!!!
It is just something that I noticed in general, it was not directed at the OP or the thread.
Be my guest. Humor is our best weapon.
He is not trying to inspire. He is, in this instance, telling the truth, which those not already infatuated with Obama will recognise. It’s fine to talk talk talk about “hope”. It’s meaningless. Just a politician’s word.