Bob Somerby alerts us to the fact that Maureen Dowd has gone all concern troll over the sexist treatment of Hillary Clinton by the media.
No, it's not April Fools:
Like you, we did a double-take at the start of this piece. Was she serious? Dowd seemed to be writing about the problem of “misogyny” in the coverage of Hillary Clinton! In fact, no one has done more than Dowd to introduce various forms of gender-loathing into our political discourse. For that reason, we were surprised by her choice of topics. But we thought, once again, of mental disorder when she offered this clownish account of this vexing problem:
DOWD (2/13/08): Many women I talk to, even those who aren't particularly fond of Hillary, feel empathy for her, knowing that any woman in a world dominated by men has to walk a tightrope between femininity and masculinity, strength and vulnerability.
They see double standards they hate—when male reporters described Hillary's laugh as ''a cackle'' or her voice as ''grating,'' when Rush Limbaugh goes off on her wrinkles or when male pundits seem gleeful to write her political obituary. Several women I know, who argue with their husbands about Hillary, refer with a shudder to the ''Kill the Witch'' syndrome.
Really, you've got to be kidding. Maureen Dowd? The ultimate poison-penned Heather who lives to stomp down on on the jugular of any woman who aims too high with a vicious overpriced boot heel? Give me a fucking break.
And true to form, Dowd can't even get through the column before she's compulsively at it again:
In a webcast, prestidigitator Penn Jillette talks about a joke he has begun telling in his show. He thinks the thunderous reaction it gets from audiences shows that Hillary no longer has a shot.
The joke goes: ''Obama is just creaming Hillary. You know, all these primaries, you know. And Hillary says it's not fair, because they're being held in February, and February is Black History Month. And unfortunately for Hillary, there's no White Bitch Month.
Is Chris Matthews really worse than this? Is it any better because the New York Times has some acid, waspish harridan who is putatively female saying it?
MSNBC's gyno-bashing problem does not occur because there are no women on the network; rather, it's because -- as Somerby has long noted -- the only women who are asked back are those who flatter the hosts and won't call them on their disfunctional, sexist remarks. Since there are no women in a position of power free to say what they really feel without fear of being shitcanned on the network, we have to settle for Andrea Mitchell, Kate O'Beirne and other women who are willing to get their face time in front of a camera by attacking other women.
Neither they nor Dowd represent "equal time" for women. They're just rubber stampers, repackaged sexism, happy to have the misogny outsourced to them due to their willingness to give it the good gyno seal of approval.
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Uhh, RBG, Jane raised the issue…
ooh, ZED is not dead!
Hehindeedy!
Maureen Dowd can got fuck herself since no one else will.
Ewww, who’d want to…? ;-)
Don’t like Hillary. She’s a corporate shill.
Besides, imagine Hil and Bill (once again).
Hey, I saw over at Pandagon a bit ago that she can even legally do so in Texas now! :})
My, my! Here I am early to a thread for once, and what have we on the menu as my reward but putativity!
There was a time when the mere thought of Dowd occupying such valuable space at the Times was enough to make my heart sink, but I’m inured now.
“White bitch” I guess she gets that moniker because she’s smart and strong and has the gall to want to be president.
Did she really say that? A similar racial slur would get her fired.
In the FDL column this morning, someone stated the hope that HRC will take a Kennedy role. Who knows? The thing I feel deep in my soul is that we/women, especially, all owe Hillary. She may or may not win, but she has broken barriers, shown the strength, guts, courage, whatever you call it, to conduct an upbeat, smart campaign. Smart because she is brilliant, diligent, and more. She has been a winner no matter how it turns out.
MODO’s mouldering mental meanderings have become quite mendacious.
“Praise the lord and pass the AA batteries.”
Pandagon
:})
I totally agree with that premise… You’ve come a long ways, baby… Particularly from Shirley Chisholm’s and Ferraro’s bids…
Slightly OT.
I have always thought that Hillary stayed married to Bill after Monica because it would have damaged her political aspirations to split up. A guy (Reagan, for instance) can be divorced and electable. Can a woman? If Hillary doesn’t get the nomination, is she going to split up with Bill?
Accept my apology if this is a worthless and sexist post.
Maureen Dowd was, for me, an appealing novelty for about a month. Good for a few chuckles. But, like David Brooks, she wears thin very quickly. Like David Brooks, she’s extremely shallow and egotistical.
If she’s still sucking you into her idiotic columns, slap yourself around some. Find a bucket of cold water and start splashing.
Why the New York Times hasn’t replaced her is beyond me.
The word “harridan” isn’t used enough in today’s society.
Just sayin’.
When is Hillary going to congratulate Obama for his string of wins and acknowledge it at her events the way every other candidate does?
When is Clinton going to release her tax returns (and with deference of Newtonuser who is anxious for a compare and contrast list from me that’s coming–I kind of got FISA side tracked with my political time for yesterday and today) here’s a comparison and contrast:
Obama released his tax returns
Clinton refuses to release here–her surrogates on the campaign trail point to her Senate reports. Senate reports ain’t jack diddly. They are very general. They tell ya nothing. That’s why the Senate approved them. We want Clinton’s tax returns. Where is that $5 million coming from?
When will Clinton explain why she failed to show up to vote on the FISA amendments yesterday. Compare and Contrast please. Hokey. Obama was there for every vote. McBush was there for every vote as well. Clinton was absent.
Thanks for reading this, Jane. I no longer click on Dowd, as I don’t want the NYT to think more people are eager to read her than really are. I’ve never read Kristol, and just generally stay away from all of the sicko eds at NYT and WaPo. Somebody’s keeping track of how many people read whom, or at least it would seem logical. Course Glenn Beck is still on and nobody watches him, so logic isn’t always applicable.
Modo- moto trasher. Hi Jane & everyone. I think she is running on empty, a parody of her former self, who is relying increasingly on parody.
Here’s some raw numbers for the Hillary backers. She needs to take every future race with a majority of 60% or she loses this election. She’s not going to be able to do this.
That she did.
”the only women who are asked back are those who flatter the hosts and won’t call them on their disfunctional, sexist remarks. Since there are no women in a position of power free to say what they really feel without fear of being shitcanned on the network, we have to settle for Andrea Mitchell, Kate O’Beirne and other women who are willing to get their face time in front of a camera by attacking other women.”
Really? Because I would hardly put Rachel Maddow and Katrina vanden Heuvel in the category of ”white bitch,” much less in the same league as Andrea, Kate, or Maureen.
NewsHour on the Writer’s Strike now
Gonna go adjust some track lighting now.
These Hillary “jokes” are all over the place. They share common characteristics.
1) They aren’t funny- which is a serious problem for a joke.
2) They have the subtlety of a truck wreck
3) They are nothing but an insult masquerading as a joke- like “Hillary’s a bitch”.
Sorry, Pete, you’re mistaken, on the final vote, the 68-29 vote he was absent …
Speaking of Loo Hoo (Hi you)
There was a time here at FLD when there were very few voices for HRC.
Somebody’s keeping track of how many people read whom, or at least it would seem logical.
Actually, there is an aspect to the Internet, ala Biodun’s very fine post earlier here, that wasn’t discussed.
Who’s zooming who?
I just find it interesting to follow the comments here, watching who is the Candidate Du Jour.
Another soundbite, another person to stand behind.
Not just here, but a lot of other places too.
Loo Hoo’s been faithful.
There isn’t much similarity of MODO to David Brooks who has come up with absurd rationalizations. Yesterday Brooks lamented that if a dem is President, and they actually withdraw troops they will destroy the wonderful gains made lately. Brooks alludes to the success of “the surge in Iraq” all the time, but he never details what the success is he’s touting.
When Reality Bites by David Brooks
Sorry for the mistake. That final vote wasn’t too close was it? He was there for every vote on the amendments then. So was McBush.
Did Penn Gillette really tell that joke? It seems unlike him, to be both hurtful and not funny. Or maybe I’ve mis-perceived him.
If you ever find yourself needing to read a NYT columnist, and don’t want to be counted as a reader, go to Marion in Savannah’s site. She runs the main columnists every day, in very readable form. (Thanks, Marion).
I just saw a tabliod with a headline ssaying they had agreed to divorce if she didn’t get the nomination.
You know one of those really tabloidy tabloids with “batboy” sitings and Elvis is alive articles. i wouldn’t put too much stock in that.
Do you see how mad Bill gets when someone attacks her? This is not a dead relationship. It may not be a relationship I understand, but there is clearly a strong bond of some sort between them.
Nope, they sold us down the river… 8-(
One nice thing about getting old is that it means there’s less & less time I’ll have to put up with misogyny.
Reasons why they haven’t replaced her:
She’s won a Pulitzer. She is satirical toward both sides of the aisle.
It’s been my experience that with some comedy folk, Nothing is Fair Game.
Much comedy is Irrevrant.
Guess you had to be there. Context is what I’m talking about.
It’s prolly okay with him if you don’t get it.
I’m just saying the world will keep spinning.
It’s obvious that for Bobo, Reality Bites . . . big time. That explains why he’s in fantasyland most of the time.
I didn’t see the final result of all the voting in the House. Where do we stand now? Are we at an impasse?
He appears on Glenn Beck’s show and agrees with the host.
I think Penn Gillette is a Republican, so that “joke” would fit.
Damn if your hipness doesn’t make me smile.
Choose your battles, and F U, anyway, works as a stategy for me too.
Sixteen more servicemen featured on the morgue wall of the NewsHour tonight. May they haunt George Bush for the rest of his life.
ABC News: ‘08 Candidates Keeping Tax Info SecretMay … Edwards has indicated that he will keep his tax returns private, … Presidential Candidates Defy Tradition, Refuse to Release Taxes …
i.abcnews.com/Politics/story?id=3165953&page=1
[Mod Note; is this the the correct link? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3165953 ]
The Repug’s attempt to float the Senate bill failed and the 21 day extension failed so it’s up to the Conference Committee…
The GOP and their minions are working over time to set up a stabbed in the back narrative in regard to the Iraq occupation.
Kristol, Brooks, O’Hanlon, Boot, Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter and the rest are working furiously to set the table and then begin shrieking Black Hawk Down at every new incident that occurs after Bush dumps his flaming turd on his successor.
-G
My only defense against misogyny was doing a better job.
I guess thats one way to look at it… but I like to think we are seeing things changing for the good as 10 years this wasn’t even discussed in public and now it is. That at least is some progress in mankind that it can be discussed at all.
Goddamn Hollywood is filled with them.
-G
I just loved his ‘Dr Retail’ op-ed… ;-)
Damn straight.
And, funny thing is, it’s Not. That. Hard. To. Do.
Am I right?
The new president come this November will be Obama or Hillary. We in this house are not uncomfortable with this. We will support the nominee of the Democratic Party.
And I like the way the Clintons stick up for each other.
That soulless stooge says he sleeps fine.
-G
Malaise of incrementalism, aka too little, too late.
Yep.
But it is still more than it was… thus some progress, maybe not enough, but fuck we can’t get everything all the time now can we??
So there actually is going to be a conference committee? Up until last night Cboldt doubted there would be.
Is there a counterpart to misogeny? Not saying anything, I’m just asking.
Penn Gillette is a libertarian. Even worse. He’s always been a big kid with a bit of a mean streak, it’s just much less noticeable when it’s aimed against targets that you don’t like.
Ms. Dowd is so yesteryear.
L.
A similar racial slur would get her fired.
It did for Imus, who’s back years too soon imo.
(Of course, if Penn thinks that white women would get wbm, I do wonder what little private name he has for Black History Month, and why would he thing that a black candidate’s showing is determined by it? But Penn Jillette’s maunderings aren’t really the topic here, but those of people who call themselves leading our political discourse in major media outlets.)
I saw Pelosi’s letter just released on FISA–they’re saying the right things if they could just muster the votes to stick with stripping immunity.
Pelosi’s Statement on FISA
So, it sure seems like the law enforcement agencies are starting to get the hint that it’s good to abuse people.
Slapping around kids on skateboards, dumping the disabled from wheel chairs….Now that they are tazing Fox sportscasters it is one step too far.
The brutality abroad is coming on home.
-G
Jane, this was a terrific post and I’m glad you wrote it. There is much more than just Modo going on, and although Hillary inspires people to take multiple stances, any other female would also have a tough time.
Time for me to fix supper.
Maybe. For me, I call it unconditional love.
No one judging anyone else, for anything.
It’s a pretty high bar.
What are your thoughts?
Bmaz has a post up discussing it…
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......#more-1798
Actually, other than promotion & whatever was said about me behind my back, misogyny has not been a problem for me. Men just don’t tend to do it to my face. So my life has been pretty much the same, no matter how much is going around. What bothers me about it (in addition to my issues with promotion) is that women shouldn’t need to have personalities like mine in order to feel comfortable in a male professional world. Like many values that the Ds share, it’s not because you are personally affected, but because it just ain’t fair.
Jane, you seem to have forgotten that Rachel Maddow (who appears regularly on MSNBC) got in Chris Matthews’ face over his anti-Hillary sexism just after the New Hampshire primary.
It’s also true that Maddow has said some kind things about Matthews and Shuster. But she strikes me as the kind of person that can demolish a conservative like Pat Buchanan in an argument and still be on good personal terms with him/her. I think that this style of argument is very effective for our side, and I wouldn’t characterize it as flattering to the men; she’s simply a decent human being. And I wish that she had a more prominent role and that we had more like her on the air.
Just got back. Thanks. I’m going to be happy with Barack though, assuming he’s our guy. Didn’t I read somewhere today that he’s thinking single payer now? That would be fantastic.
Why would Tweety defend Hill’s non-release of her taxes…? WTF?
cause he doesn’t want to release his tax records when he runs for the Senate in PA
Thanks, I will. I get to see Marion occasionally in the morning and have her cyber coffee and muffins!
Yeppers. Me too.
There’s really not that hard of a choice, is there?
Scarface or Da Preacha Man.
McCain has made his bed.
eCAHN I agree with you it is not right or good for that to happen and the old boys is not… not the way it should be. I have learned that it does not matter what is the facade that we see but what the actions and intent of the inner self are what truly matter. It probably helps me that I was the middle boy between four ssiters that shaped my attitudes but you know I am glad, for any thing else would mean a personal loss to me as I wold miss so much in others that I enjoy.
Surely, you jest…?! ;-)
My thoughts? There is just as much bad humor, general disapproval, and blatant stereotyping coming from each side of the bed. Guys generally don’t complain about it, but it’s there.
Hillary has used her membership in the sisterhood. Remember her remark about cleaning up after another Bush? That’s a straight up whatever-the-reverse-of-misogenistic comment. Once the card is laid on the table, it is fair for either side to play it.
I don’t condone it by either side. I figure it’s easy enough to piss people off without even trying, it is stupid to go out of your way to make enemies.
Hi all.
I think we shouldn’t be too harsh on Ms. Dowd. She actually deserves some loving concern, if not actual pity. After all, she’s getting older, losing her looks and she really doesn’t have much else going for her except catty meanness, and that doesn’t go over so well after a while. Nobody minds laugh lines, but those frown wrinkles area dead giveaway.
Who’s on the conference committee?
43 leftwing moonbats, check that, 43 retired generals send a letter tothe US Congress stating that torture is wrong.
John McCain was against it before he was for it.
-G
If anyone want to see the reality of the “boys” making funny jokes about women…Go hang out in a busy ER for a few weeks. The same mentality that Mo Do thinks is so funny also spills over to beaten and dead kids.
”the only women who are asked back are those who flatter the hosts and won’t call them on their disfunctional, sexist remarks.”
far too often, yes. but rachel maddow is a regular now and more than holds her own. and while stephanie miller will likely not be asked back to chris matthews’ show after calling him a “right wing tool” to his face, she is still appearing on msnbc on other shows (as recently as feb. 4th with dan abrams).
there is some movement in a better direction.
And he just gave a barn burner of a speech in Wisconsin that was ripped from the pages of John Edwards populism, railing against NAFTA and proposing a National Infrastructure Investment Bank as a way to combat aging infrastructure, poverty and job loss all at once. Fairly impressive.
Aha, middle boy between four sisters. A sensitizing experience. Good on you.
Joebuck, I absolutely concur. Rachel is the bomb.
I like it that the other side has failed carpenters and sports flunkies and we have doctors on our side. Rachel is brilliant.
It’s true that MSNBC has started using Rachel Maddow more frequently and also has Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Jane occasionally along with a few other progressive women.
Unfortunately, that small positive group is counter-balanced by the years and years and the sheer volume appearances of Andrea Mitchell and Kate O’Beirne being treated as valid and honest purveyors of information.
That’s the $64,000 question…! ;-)
persistent rumor
How come this isn’t getting any airplay? I love this…
I didn’t even know Rice was going in front of anyone today.
I think this is sort of related. Tucker prefaced a discussion with A.B. Stoddard and someone else about Hillary’s dismal performance last night by saying something like I don’t mean to come off as mean–we aren’t allowed to be mean to Hillary… I have to rely on closed captioning, so I don’t know the tone it was said in. What does that mean? Shouldn’t that apply to all candidates, not just Hillary? Not really sure what to think of this. We have MSNBC on during the day, but I despise Tucker myself.
Look we can talk all we want but its Hilary who has to be the one to carve MoDo a new one if she wants to win her fight with the media. I for one hope she does, then Tweety, Rush, O’Reily etc the list of targets is so tempting.
looseheadprop at 33 says-”Do you see how mad Bill gets when someone attacks her? This is not a dead relationship. It may not be a relationship I understand, but there is clearly a strong bond of some sort between them.”
there was a photo taken at one of the funerals last year, i wish i could find it, they were seated, where she was reading something, he was looking at her and she did’t know it, and the way he was looking at her was nuthin’ but love……..was the same way my mom and dad look at each other, when they know the other isn’t looking, no mistaking it.
doesn’t mean they don’t have problems, but in that moment, he was ’all about her’. you can’t fake that kind of body language and expression and posture….. i forgave him a lot when i saw that picture, i’ve seen that look enough times to know what it is.
Boxer is this tiny little person and is one of the baddest dogs in town. I don’t always agree with her (holyJo) but I do like her.
Another sensitizing experience can be the youngest with an older sister and a whole bunch of independent older cousins.
Also didn’t hurt having a father who supported the mother’s desire to finish her degree in the fifties in Kentucky. The training there was, “Boy, I told you to go do those dishes. No one is waiting on you and there’s work for you to do so do it before I tan your hide.”
I wouldn’t change that for any thing in the world… I just wish more boys could have that EXPERIENCE it sure would make things different for them and the women they are close to.
dakine01 & nahant
Nice to have you around. Would like more of you.
(And more & better Ds too.)
This isn’t about Hillary. It is about every woman. Allow this to go without raising hell and it gives license to every jerk in our culture to engage in the same demeaning behavior.
Whether you are for McCain, Obama, Huck or Clinton, you should be proactively against the attidudes reflected in that “joke.”
Fair is fair.
I asked for your thoughts.
We can look at it from a personal perspective or not.
Here’s what I think.
I don’t believe that a white person can talk about racism in the same way a person of color can.
And, I don’t think a man can talk about sexism in the same way a woman can.
This isn’t tit for tat.
There is a Glass Ceiling.
It just is.
You can be empathetic.
I won’t make it your fault that it exists.
But, you have to be very careful about sounding like you Know How It Is.
And, by you, I mean the universal you, as in “one”.
All of us.
eloquently put.
Lordy, Just sounds like the Dowd-Coulter twins. Ughhh
Frumpish
dow·dy (doud)
adj. dow·di·er, dow·di·est
1. Lacking stylishness or neatness; shabby: a dowdy gray outfit.
2. Old-fashioned; antiquated.
n. pl. dow·dies
A dowdy person; a frump.
One aspect is it meant that I can (and do) take care of myself. Mom and Dad both made sure that I could cook, clean, iron and even sew on a button if needed.
It also meant a few times when I was living near my sister and she had surgery, that I’d wind up going to visit once a week or so and do all the little things she was uncomfortable asking others to do for her. And she knew she could direct/correct how I was doing it and I wouldn’t get upset.
November might be White Bitch Month.
I liked Nancy’s info and the tone of the letter. There is no reason to rush into this but to protect crooks.
February seems right for me!
What is Modo thinking Schuster is in the witless protection program and she tells everyone the white bitch joke with the catty excuse that she is only repeating what a man said.
Here’s what my mom would say unmarried, no kids, cash and fame just are not enough no wonder she is so bitter at everyone especially people she is jealous of who like Hilary have a husband, a kid, cash, fame, and now wants power!
Modo keeps herself from crying everynight by repeating the words Bill cheats on her she can’t be happy, SHE CAN’T BE HAPPY, SHE CAN’T
Next to Hilary Modo looks like a slacker who has settled for way to little in life and didn’t apply herself.
You know I probably did not forget about that:
http://mediamatters.org/columns/200801220003
Come Super Tusday, Maddow no longer had a prominent role in commentary. She was eventually allowed back but was not saying anything on the matter.
Or am I missing something? Please provide a link if I’ve skipped over something, would love to have it.
Button popular a Nam vets gatherings says “If you haven’t been there shut your mouth”. Identity politics, so where does that get us. YOU can’t possibly understand what I have been through. So lets all get in our group and fuck everyone else. Giltin does a nice job of describing it in “The Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America is Wracked by Culture Wars”.
You sound like a real mensch.
OT flash
Illustrious r mccain prez can voted against ban on torture
Jane,
Have you seen this about the 43 generals?
-G
I got some behind-the-scenes flak from a female colleague because I used the term “you guys” in mixed company. She’s from VA, so I suspect she doesn’t understand that “you guys” is the West Coast equivalent of “y’all” on her home turf.
Goods for you! I wish I lived close to my sisters. We live on opposite sides of the country and I don’t get back except for the usual funeral or occasional wedding… But we do talk often and for that I am glad. I also grew up having to do for the good of all in the house and it certainly make a better person of you. Being able to fend for your self is something I made sure my kids learned as they grew up and I am seeing the dividends in the way they are leading their lives and raising their kids..
Care to prognosticate? Who is on the conference committee and what is their preferences regarding telecom immunity.
You don’t need to be a member of the group to have empathy for that group’s particular problems. But empathy is not the same as knowing how it is to be in the situation of a member of that group. And group members righty get testy when a nonmenber tells them how they should feel.
Raven,
Why are you yelling at me?
And, I even called you Hot Stuff earlier.
I have to go pick up my son, so, I can’t return any response until later.
Have you confused me with someone you don’t know?
Not to blog-whore, butI have a short post with video of Wexler taking Condi down. Click on my name.Tres interresant!
Thank gawd. I probably won’t have to be worried about being water boarded. But there are other methods for forcing me to say what they want me too. Something say along the lines of involving electricity perhaps.
AP - Congress on Wednesday moved to prohibit the CIA from using waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects, despite President Bush’s threat to veto any measure that limits the agency’s interrogation techniques.
Okay here’s one last thought.
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
I could have said the opposite of misogony is Pussy-Whipped.
But, I didn’t.
Oh, great, now I’m an a**hole, like everyone else.
(I’m smiling.)
I guess you don’t know me.
[Mod Note; is this the the correct link? http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3165953 ]
yes thank you for fixing the link
I’d assume the Chairs and Ranking members of both Houses’ Intel and Judiciary Committees would be part, beyond that, I have no idea…
ecahn at 47 says-”My only defense against misogyny was doing a better job.”
ohhhhhh ecahn, thank you for that…….i was trying to word what to say, and that said it……i was one of the first females to work outside as an installer at the phone company. 1979
eeoc was there to protect me from all of the lude, nasty, uncalled for, undeserved crap that i had to endure……..well, just file an eeoc complaint, right? un huh…..yeah right, and have noone ever work with you again………..i had no idea what i was getting into when i took the job…..i managed to gain the respect of the men i worked with……..wasn’t easy……took time…….and i did it by doing my job. every single day.
once they knew i was there to learn and do my job, it got better. but i was fresh meat with a tag on me when i first walked in there. young women nowadays have no idea what came before them, no idea at all.
hillary knows what is a part of the game, and like it or not, that is a part of the game.
obama knows what is a part of the game, too.
and whomever does a better job will gain the respect they need to win.
Great catch GregB @111
It would be great to interview these Generals at the Lake if we could. But I can’t believe General Petraeus said this with a straight face. He is in charge of Iraq now he is guilty of any war crimes the American Government does in Iraq, but he expects us to believe him?
“General David Petraeus underscored this point in an open letter to the troops in May in which he cautioned against the use of interrogation techniques not authorized by the Field Manual:
What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight. . . . is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect…. Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone “talk;” however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact, our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees. “
Oh no you didn’t.
You call out MoDo for using the white bitch comment and then say she uses the “catty excuse that she is only repeating what a man said”.
You then imply that unmarried, childless women are bitter, and use the catty excuse that it’s what your mom says.
I think he was agreeing with you that someone from outside doesn’t fully understand the experience of another group - the “you” was general not specific.
Anyway that’s my read. Could be wrong.
Not yelling at all, I was just posting something I thought was relevant to the entire thread, not your comment specifically.
WOW! That is some strong stuff. Most excellent, Officers.
Note, all retired.
Dowd is entering William Kristol territory as far as my having any interest in wasting time reading her column.
What a great story. Good for you. You put up with a lot more than I ever did. And made it work for you.
Lahoma is eating her BLT and reading the comments. She asks me if the ‘white bitch’ concept is the same as ‘black bitch’ concept. Or the ‘red-bitch, concept. I have no answer for her.
I made a point by citing MY identity group. We are as guilty, or more so, than anyone.
Any emergency room? Is this specific to Drs. and meds back from war? That’s some sick behavior.
However, all the services’ JAGs also sent a letter denouncing torture…
I think I might stay outta this one.
The generic bitch concept. :)
Some action on the contempt charges for the bushie shills Miers and Josh Bolten… maybe things are suddenly going to start to unravel for this administration…. the dirty laundry is going to get aired…
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi.....nye…
I wasn’t casting stones. I was just trying to draw a line between empathy & telling a person how they should feel about their own problems. The former is great. The latter not so good.
I was thinking the same thing!
Pulling the football away ….
AP - Hillary Rodham Clinton’s crushing losses in Maryland and Virginia highlight an erosion in what had been solid advantages among women, whites and older and working-class voters.
A good answer is ‘Yes, Honey, whatever you say…’! It works wonders… ;-)
Yep! I did if MoDo wants to sink in the mud I certainly will oblige and repsond in kind so that she can know what it feels like.
Modo has been given Hilary enough grief for trying to work things out with Bill.
I say lets point the finger back on MoDo and see how she likes it.
Cides I’m unmarried no kids and get grief from my Mom about it:)
I got that.
Lahoma wants to beat me once again at gin-rummy. We’ll await the next post.
He wanted his audience to know that the talking heads were told by management to cool it.
I betcha Hillary has discussed lawsuits with some of our media friends. With a jury.
I thought you probably did, but I wanted to say it again. *g*
Ok dumb it down. Ms. Edwards is no Clintons. Bravo Ms. Edwards, Here in New York we will be left with Rudy and the Clintons. Dowd is right on the mark when it comes to the Clintons and Rudy.
I don’t think I’ll touch that one either. Hope all is well in the Islands. ;0)
Nah, prolly not. There’s a discussion over at Emptywheel’s place about this and I posted the following:
It’s extremely easy for Nancy to call for a vote now. Mukasey has said that he will do absolutely nothing about contempt charges when Executive Privilege is claimed. Unless Nancy invokes Inherent Contempt she is bullshitting us.
I would love to be proven wrong.
Heh, I’ve survived 17+ years of wedded bliss with it…! *g*
I think Dowd isn’t on the mark on anyone. She’s just mean in a clever way. You like her if she’s mean about someone you don’t like, and vice versa. Don’t think Dowd has anything useful to say in a substantive sense.
I’m just glad my lady suggested gin rummy instead of chess tonight. I find my consistent losses to her resultant of us playing this wonderful board game more of an ego buster. Gin-rummy; not so much.
Jane: Don’t forget Noron. She doesn’t attack other women. She just laughs a lot. A LOT. Especially last night.
That’s sweet.
L.
The blogs could never expess the intracassies of the human pcyche they are to brief. Being understood is a high bar to meet as gestalt. Politics is easy to express.
Mud is mud. Facts are fact
can’t imagine why this comes to mind, but I’ll share a bit of French socio-cultural slang:
someone who appears grumpy or misanthropic is referred to rather condescendingly as being “mal baise”.
translates tas “poorly f*cked”.
(disclaimer - it’s applied equally to either gender.)
You really crack me up. You do…I LOVE
I LOVE your one-liners…
I hope I don’t come off as judgmental, or harsh, but why have so many of the NY Times columnists been writing idiotic, submoronic, silly, truly assinine columns lately?
Are there no real world issues left? Why the mindless juvenile piffle that a 6th grader editing a school newspaper would be ashamed to print?
Look at Dowd’s argument about the role of Bill -it is just stupid gossip with no point. Totally assinine.
My theory is that adding Kristol to the NY Times opinion page has increased the egregious hack ratio high enough so that even the good columnists are breaking. Even Herbert and Kristoff have gond Dowd over last couple of weeks. At this rate they will all need to be taken in for observation soon.
Note: I use ‘piffle’, because that is one level below the term ‘prattle’ which Greenwald prefers, but I think ‘prattle’ is too generous. Actually, the correct term is sh*t, but I don’t want to put anything shrill on a lefty blog.
Nah– not even close. I like her because she is an excellent writer, has an excellent vocabulary, and used to make references to a lot of diverse works of literature, and I like her parody and satire. I haven’t seen that so much. I think she skewers the Bushes well, and it’s true I don’t like them, but she goes after a lot of people with different political persuasions.
She’s the only one on the Times editorial pages doing that to the degree she does, although Gail Collins has done a little of that lately, and also writes quality columns IMO.
Bottom line: Vote Democratic next November. Clinton and/or Obama are perhaps our only hope.
did you have to do this one? *g*
What about “badly/poorly kissed”? You dirty dog you…*g*
This story has legs I wonder how much longer before Rush and O’Reily will feel safe enough to attack Hilary again? Hilary has to shoot Modo down now or else the MSM talking heads will claim that there is a double standard.
Reasonable people can disagree.
trust me on this - it ain’t about smooches!
It should have read:
Nah– not even close. I like her because she is an excellent writer, has an excellent vocabulary, and used to make references to a lot of diverse works of literature, and I like her parody and satire. I haven’t seen references to literature as much as she used to a few years ago. I think she skewers the Bushes well, and it’s true I don’t like them, but she goes after a lot of people with different political persuasions.
She’s the only one on the Times editorial pages doing that to the degree she does, although Gail Collins has done a little of that lately, and also writes quality columns IMO.
Disagree, TCU.
A long long time ago, I might have been able to remember good columns by Dowd, but for quite awhile I really honestly think she has been writing assinine nonsense. I guess I don’t care about the literary value of a NY Times column -I guess that is a matter of personal preference.
OT and apologies if already posted… Anyone interested in Texas politics can watch Rick Noreiga in a Democratic primary debate tonight at 8pm CT (about an hour from now) at his website here. It’s being streamed from Jester Auditorium Room at the University of Texas here in Austin. ( the email said you need a high-speed connection.)
McBush swallows his last ounce of integrity and votes for torture…Straight Talk Express runnin off the rails again.
Of course, hopefully often and constructively. It sure wouldn’t be much fun to disagree with people who aren’t widely read and politically prescient.
Brilliant! I think I can see into the GOP psyche now…its dark and empty:)
Not somewhere good to go to. Sexism sucks. I like tittle 9 requiring equal funding for womens athletics. You know positive stuff.
Condi is hot, hot hot!
I think that’s the defining vote in his political career.
OKK:
Or to protect Lahoma.
Jane, thanks for this very interesting post. Bob Somerby at the Howler is great. If you read him regularly you surely know that his larger point is that the so called progressive media is not progressive at all. It’s not just Chris Matthews, its Maureen Dowd. It’s not just Tucker Carlson, it’s Frank Rich. It’s not just David Shuster, it’s Eugene Robinson and Kristoff and Marcus and a plethora of other commentators who spew sexist rants. Hillary Clinton is the current victim but there have been other victims. Some of these victims have even been men (including, as Somerby points out, Al Gore.)
I don’t know about you, but it doesn’t give me great hope that large parts of progressive blog world are either too ignorant or too indifferent to fight back. It is particularly discouraging to those of us who once thought progressives were more principled than conservatives, to realize that so called progressives are willing to acquience because it provides a temporary advantage to their particular candidate of the moment.
But Jane, you yourself, as someone who runs a powerful and well respected blog are not blameless. It’s great you posted this but I see far more negative posts about FOX News (you know, things like Hillary shouldn’t debate on FOX). Yes, FOX News is awful, but at least we know where they stand. MSNBC, the New York Times (columnists), the Washington Post (columnists) have an anti progressive and pro sexist bias that is far more insidious than the rank absurdities expressed night after night on FOX.
Worst of all are so called progressive people who should no better, but stand by silently. I think their silence actually speaks volumes.
Was it the waft of Kristol’s entrance or the last downward spike before the flat line?
Inaugurating the New York Times Deathwatch
How could he have sold out so completely? I can’t imagine trashing your own integrity. Any one who wants to be president that badly should never be allowed even near the office.
Tonight’s typo that made me laugh.
I think she’s a talented writer. I don’t know that much about feminism but I’ve read some interesting articles that make the point that there are a lot of lonely, successful glass ceiling woman sitting home alone because of a rather diabolical plan. As far as Dowd is concerned, anyone in the MSM with a soul should quit. I’d rather work at a gas station than be part of the MSM.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqEndNmaFk
Ugh! MoDo’s fake empathy is no different from Coulter’s pretend support for Hillary. However, I am deeply disappointed with Penn Jillette for making such a tasteless and misogynistic “joke”. It comes right out of the republican ugly repertoire, and I am surprised that someone as smart at Jillette, and his audience, would find this funny. I am reconciled to the possibility that Hillary might lose the nomination, but I am greatly disturbed by the behavior of the Hillary haters who are not of the right-wing republican persuasion. It bodes badly for all women, including MoDo who, ironically, doesn’t seem to understand that she is only venting spite on herself here.
Hill has given up on white men; black men and women; the youth vote white and black. She’s going after white women. Good luck there. The well-educated ones, white, are Obama girls…
Beats me. I’ve been calling McCain a whore for several years now, but ever other postion he’s abandoned has been minor compared to switching on torture, given that he was. I be tempted to go to psychology for an explanation, but I don’t know much about what makes him tick.
I remember reading an article some years ago by a progressive writer — I think he normally wrote for The Nation — who managed to get invited by a press corps buddy to be part of the White House press corps in the Clinton years.
The guy despised the Clintons because he considered them triangulating de facto Republicans, but nevertheless he wound up feeling sorry for them — not because the press corps was unrelentingly vicious to them, but because the vicious questions they were asked were the most godawfully stupid and irrelevant vicious questions. When the guy from The Nation stood up to ask pointed-but-substantive questions, President Clinton turned to him with obvious relief; ol’ Bill preferred being raked over the coals for his “Third Way” politics to having to parry yet another question about his dick.
I know. Still, most excellent. Some people care about how history will perceive them, and care enough to speak out against these fascists.
Lahoma has read this comment and approves of it’s content.
Of course I do…just teasing you. I might have a French passport (in addition to my US and UK ones) but you’re more French than I am…that’s for sure. Hey: You have a US passport as well. We’re all global here…*g*
We support President Obama.
Tw3k
Please check your f/b inbox, I have an art software question for you.
Jane’s upstairs with a new post!
The only groups that Hillary got significant votes from yesterday were according to the poles:
Hispanics
older/elderly white women
Hispanics don’t vote as a block–despite the talking heads’ suggestions/oversimplifications on cable news that they do.
This may be superficial, but I can see one powerful rationale as to why women who are elderly (whatever that number is) would back Hillary. They have lived through an evolution of a number of broken glass ceilings, and that alone is a compelling reason for them to vote for a woman running.
She has to get 60% of the big 3 states in the future, and that’s a high mark to meet.
I don’t know about the General, but I am quite sure that no one here mistakenly assumes that our Commander in Chief really knows what the rules in the Manual might say. And we certainly do not want to be hampered by the “antiquated” Geneva Conventions. Our guy just likes to make up the rules as he goes along.
according to the exit polls.
Hello Biodun. Kiddo and I like your stuff.
L.
Excuse me? Where does that put me?
it’s rather tittle-8-ing, isn’t it?
“She has to get 60% of the big 3 states in the future, and that’s a high mark to meet.”
Thus assumes that voters in MI and FL are disenfranchised, no?
I think your’s is the best, smartest comment of the night!
*groan* Interestingly, Title 9 was one of the significant acts that my former Rep. Patsy Mink, RIP, spearheaded… She was a true progressive and staunch advocate for feminist causes…
Dems Voting against an extension of PAA in the House along with the Blue Dog Lap Dog Dems–including Kucinich and Rush Holt who said they opposed the PAA and were voting symbolically against an extension (nutty) if an extension helps forge a better replacement.
Jane, the only thing I watch on MSNBC is Olbermann’s show, and Maddow is on pratically every show. I have no idea if she got a time-out of any kind, but she scored major points taking on Pat Buchanan recently, well after Super Tuesday.
If you expect that she should be using her limited air time to attack her fellow employees, instead of the Republicans, I don’t think that it works that way. She zinged Chris Matthews and she’s still working.
and i know i’m epu’d but ecahn
when you work with men, nicknames are involved…….
first nickname was ’hardcore’, i was mad about it, young and innocent, i thought it was a porn joke, finally told a guy i worked with, and he explained that, no, it wasn’t…….
so, puff, who gave me that name, changed it to ’miss —–’ my name……….i thought that was prissy after a while, so al, nickname, algeee, changed it to deeeeeeemac……..which is where is get my ’handle’ for here.
dmac.
so, sexism can be overcome, it’s all in how you do it.
“The well-educated ones, white, are Obama girls…”
From my admittedly limited observation, the educated younger women may be Obama girls but all the highly-educated women I know are for Hillary. They can relate to her (now) up hill attempt to win the nomination with their own struggle to get tenure, make partner, break the glass ceiling in boardrooms, etc.
Um, I thought WASP meant White AngloSaxon Protestant. Dowd is neither Anglosaxon nor Protestant. Why did you have to add the “ASP”? Being from and Irish Catholic background, and being less than proud of Maureen, the Catholic church or my fellow Irish Americans in general (thanks, loofaman, sean, mike kelly, and modo), I still take offense at being lumped in with AngloSaxons or Protestants. Catholicism can be creepy, but Protestants are just plain freaks to some of us. I might expect this from nonwhite or nonenglish speaking people who can’t tell the difference, but not from someone with an ultra WASPy name like Jane Hamsher.
Can’t you find a better pejorative slur for her…. like, I dunno… it’s on the tip of my tounge.. what month is it, again?
Even if Florida counted, and Michigan counted, still more people have voted for Obama than for Clinton so far. And that’s if you pretend that none of the votes for uncommitted delegates in Michigan were intended as votes for Obama.
But if you check the exit poll in Michigan for “Vote if All Candidates Were On Ballot”, you see that it was 46-35-12 for Clinton, Obama, and Edwards. Notice that the 46 is well under the number that Clinton got, meaning that some voters picked her over uncommitted even though they wanted Obama or Edwards.
Unfortunately for Sen. Clinton, she’s already conceded Wisconsin. She’s ahead in the polls in Ohio and Texas for now, but a whole month of losing is going to erode that. There are a lot of people who like both candidates and are looking for a winner, to beat John McCain. You don’t look like a winner when you keep losing.
Right ON !
I think *all* the NYT columnists are just desperate to prove they’re still relevant in a time of blogs … poor things ;->
Most of the highly educated ones I know are for Obama. They recognize the calculating coldness and cruelty that pervades Clinton’s personality.
None of ‘em are happy she was a limo ride away yesterday and refused to have her driver whip over to the Senate so she could vote on the FISA amendments and speak on the floor. I know she claps a lot, but I’m not sure that incessant (nine minutes today) clapping during her intro would play that well in the Senate. It looks like a 6th grade music teacher trying to show the class how to keep 4/4 time.
Most of the columnists on the op ed page have blogs with comments, but they aren’t widely advertised enough.
Wasp. Like the insect. It’s pretty simple. It stings you.
I really liked your critique of the Hillary haters last week - but “harridan”? Why use a quaint equivalent of “bitch” to criticize another woman for her misogyny? Also, I couldn’t quite get whether you’re attributing Teller’s joke to Dowd; I read that column today, and took from it that she was condemning the joke, and its reception, as examples of how shameless the misogyny has been during this campaign. Her earlier example of two women in a retirement home made vivid how pervasive and acceptable sexism is among supposedly enlightened people - and the misogynist in that story was a woman. That said, thank you for an informative, inspiring website.
Oops, I meant Jillette’s joke.
“Most of the highly educated ones I know are for Obama. They recognize the calculating coldness and cruelty that pervades Clinton’s personality.”
How is this bullshit any different from “White Bitch Month”? And how do we ever change things when “liberals” repeat rightwing misogynist memes?
Do you not get it, man? She got to the top because she’s “cold” and “calculating”. Not because she’s talented. And how is Obama not “calculating”? (Cold is ridiculous. She’s clearly a warm and decent woman, and comes across that way when you watch her without the rightist blinkers on.)
I just read a fabulous opinion piece (but ultimately a sad requiem) by Erica Jong in HuffPo; Patriarchy:1000, Hillary:0.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/erica-jong/patriarchy1000-hillary_b_86408.html)
God, I’m both elated that she’s put down in words much of what I feel, and in despair at what a long way we still need to go for parity.
And when are you going to stick to the topic of the thread?
Oh, and the Hillary nutcracker is for real. Steel thighs, and all. Buy it for your right- and left-wing friends at:
http://www.homeandbeyond.com/p.....b0004.html
Obama talks about hope. Hillary personifies it. Whatever, you might think about her, even in the face of all the incredible negativity relentlessly directed against her, she soldiers on - hopeful. To me, that example is inspiring.
EXCELLENT post, Jane. I used to LIKE Modo. Dunno what happened to her.
Joan Walsh at Salon wrote about the boys club, then defended her position of continuing to appear on the programs.
Penn Jillette’s more of a hard-core libertarian than a Republican, tho its hard to tell the difference depending on the topic. Rabidly anti-religion, too.
(and to PetePierce @18)
Surely you not suggesting that mysogyny in the media is OK as long as you don’t like the target? This isn’t about Hillary Clinton, it’s about Maureen Dowd and her ilk. What do you think is going to happen if/when Barack Obama wins the nomination? All that bigotry and vitriole is going to be directed at him. We need to set the parameters for civil discourse, no matter who the subject is.
I wonder though, dmac, how much you’re getting paid compared to the guys? I know from personal experience that men doing the same job as women get paid more and promoted more often. It happens even in places where on the surface everyone seems to be respected and treated equally, because pay and promotion decisions are made in secret.
What struck me about MoDo’s column, besides her coy attempt to say that only the male MCMers (members of Mainstream Corporate Media) trashed Hillary, and certainly not sweet l’il Mo, was that the NYTimes has now given its imprimatur to the use of “bitch” to refer to the leading female candidate for the presidency of this country.
It would seem, based on that precedent, that any female is now fair game for that term on the pages of the Times.
Wow.
How did Obama, McCain and Clinton vote on the final bill?
I saw something on that too. Does Obama now support Universal Health Care?
Really. It makes me wonder how I’m going to decide whether to vote for Clinton or Obama if I’m to be called misogynistic or racist if I don’t vote for them.
John Edwards for President — Leadership for everyone
Yeah, he might vote for it but consider this, the Democratic Congress and presidential candidates are actually doing it to America. First they let Bush have anything and let the 4th Amendment go and then Clinton & Obama fail to vote on FISA and talk about Progressive values. It’s mind-bending stuff.
Where is the real leadership America needs? I hear more leaderin’ here on this blog than anywhere else around. And, of course, there was that guy from NC who couldn’t be considered because he foolishly paid too much for a haircut.
Woe is us. America is stupidly shooting itself in the foot over and over and there’s nobody with enough power to step in and stop it.