With the Senate’s failure to stand up for the rule of law today, the ball goes back to the House’s court if the SSCI bill passes.
FDL and Glenn Greenwald ask you to help us push the House in the rule of law direction: please sign our petition asking House members to support the RESTORE Act, and not cave to pressure from the Senate on telecom immunity, on basket warrants and every other provision which requires careful debate on the long-term legal ramifications rather than a rubber stamp.
In a follow-up opinion (FISC Docket No.: MISC. 07-01), the FISA Court has again punted the issue of overreach by the Bush Administration on classification questions back to Congress. The ACLU’s appeal of their December decision has resulted in the same answer: the Bush Administration’s actions and classification justifications raise serious questions, but those must be answered by Congress. From the FISC opinion:
…The Court is aware of the ongoing congressional and public debate over extending or replacing the Protect America Act of 2007, and it acknowledges that release of the requested materials (at least in their unredacted form) could inform the public in that debate.
Nevertheless, the Court properly rejected the ACLU’s request for release, and now denies the ACLU’s motion for reconsideration. As noted above and in the Court’s original opinion, even assuming that this Court has the discretion independently to declassify materials over the Executive’s objections, the searching review requested by the ACLU of the Executive Branch’s classification decisions — over and above that conducted by a district court under FOIA — poses unacceptable risks to the national security and to the proper functioning of the FISA process. As already explained, these risks include the heightened possibility of erroneous judicial release of properly classified materials; the forgoing of search or surveillance against legitimate targets; avoidance of the FISC in cases where the need for FISC approval is unclear; and impediments ot the free flow of information in cases that are submitted. These risks simply outweigh the potential benefits from discretionary release.
In other words, there is likely information that the public should know that exists in these classified materials, but the Congress, and not the courts, is the place in which these matters ought to be investigated. It’s a strong hint from the FISA court, but they are not going to go beyond that because to do so, in their opinion, would be a violation of their role in this oversight tango. (And I have to wonder if the documents that the House is combing through contain this information — or is it something beyond what they have been given?)
That the FISA Court has gone on record publicly not once — but twice now– on this issue screams volumes. That there is no clear resolution to these issues says a lot about where we are politically, and about the levels of frustration that is engendering among a whole host of people inside and outside the Beltway.
Back in December, after the first decision, I said this — which is still applicable today:
In plain language, the FISA court just called the Bush Administration on its hypocritical use of classified information for its own political purposes and not properly taking national security considerations into account while using this information as a political football. Good for them.
But this also brings into stark contrast the fact that they have punted this abysmal situation back into the Congress, where oversight and legislative action are the corrective remedies for executive branch overstep. Which is exactly what we have not been seeing, as delay and capitulation to veto threats have sadly ruled the day in the face of overarching political concerns versus standing up proudly for the Constitution.
We need leadership. From every Democratic Presidential candidate, from every Democratic member of the House and Senate. From every American who cares about his or her nation as a nation of laws and not at the whim of a unilateral executive power grab. We fought one revolution in this nation against a petulant King George. It’s high time we remembered the value of spine and spunk — and it is well past time that our elected "leaders" actually exerted some leadership.
What we are facing is a crisis of leadership and character from the people we elect to be leaders. The Republican party is more interested in protecting the Bush Presidency from scrutiny and, thus, it’s own party from factually sustained criticism than standing up for the rule of law. The Democratic party does not have enough members with stiff enough spines to withstand the GOP screechfest that would follow any factual assault on the Bush/Cheney illegal overreaches on legal and ethical grounds. And the numbers in both the House and Senate are so close that the votes are not there without a break in those ranks among the GOP and Blue Dogs somewhere to put the rule of law first.
In short, we are stuck in some sort of heinous purgatory wherein the interests of comity and fealty to the CYA needs of the Bush Administration come ahead of the pleas of the DFHs and libertarians and other Americans to stand upright against a unilateral executive power grab.
What we need are more people in Congress who put the rule of law ahead of their own political careers and their party interests, who are willing to stand up for what is right instead of what appears to be politically expedient in the moment. Certainly we have had folks like Feingold and Dodd and a host of others in the Senate and House who have stood with the rule of law. But lately, I have been longing for the days of Sam Ervin and Barbara Jordan and all those giants of the Watergate era who put the nation’s interests as a whole first.
Members of the House, the nation turns its lonely eyes to you…
The ACLU is asking its membership to call their member of the House. You can find contact information for the House here. Talking points are:
1. Vote NO on any spying bill with telecom immunity. Lawsuits must be allowed to proceed or we’ll never know the truth about what laws were broken and how many Americans rights were violated.
2. Vote NO on any spying that allows the government to spy on Americans without getting a warrant. America doesn’t need a bill that needlessly expands the President’s ability to spy on innocent Americans without a warrant.
3. Don’t let the Senate or President Bush steamroll the House of Representatives. Any bill to regulate spying on Americans must respect the Constitution and must not let phone companies off the hook for warrantless spying.
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Not too encouraging.
Christy!
Wish I had something more cheery today, Raven. But it is what it is, and I’m juggling a sick family on top of it today.
Anyone else want a cuppa tea? Just made a pot of darjeeling…
Thanks Christy, signed the petition.
signed
Feingold – smokin’ once again…
CSPAN2
hi christy…. i’ve emailed both my senators and called their nj offices … actually never spoken to them – just their staffers who promised to pass along my thoughts… its getting serious for real!!
…raises hand
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I see no explanation for this horrible behavior on the part of Democrats other than blackmail, blackmail derived from the years of illegal eavesdropping, which must have concentrated not only on suspected terrorists, but also members of the political opposition. Would such a tactic have been beyond the imagination of Karl Rove and Company?
Feingold:
A tragic defeat… an abdicaton of this body’s duty to stand up for the rule of law.”
digg!
EPU from last post-Boy Howdy as they say here in cowboy country-I am well and truly pissed off.
In this dark night of day I say good morning-went played guitar until 3 this morning,
Nice comment Kirk Murphy-from previous post.
Mad would not excatly describe my state,
these posturing pusillanimous puffed up popinjays pissing all over themselves with their self important excrementitious utterings make me want to take a pin and prick them but I am afraid of being overcome by the fetid stink that would ensue.
plus it is the perfect picture.
You know I’m not dissin you!
I have a question for the Senators:
Why are they surrendering my civil liberties and basically negating the fourth amendment without going thru the proscribed motions of repealing a Constitutional Amendment?
I know, I just wish I had some good news. SIGH
I have to agree with Atrios this morning on elected officials:
Senate is useless – turning my attention now to The House – petition signed – don’t know how much longer I can bear watching a few good Senators pissin’ into the wind…
I think Atrios makes a good point when he says that it could be as simple as they don’t see the issues on this like we do. Which would explain a lot on why it’s been such an uphill climb for Feingold, Dodd and company to get real traction on the rule of law issues.
I hope you don’t get sick too…Mr. LS just recently had a horrible flu, and somehow I didn’t get it…so hopefully you won’t either. Hope your family feels better soon…(real chicken soup…)…good luck!
Thank you for supplying the petition so quickly and thank you for all that you do. I signed it and sent it on to friends and family.
With the FISA fiasco today it’s appartent that the Senate is nothing more than a collegial boys and girls club. They stand for nothing except for staying in the good favor of their esteemed colleagues. They are pathetic. It’s beginning to look like the only way to restore constitutional democracy is another revolution but then revolutions arise from an outraged citizenry. Americans are no longer citizens but merely consumers. A nation of consumers care little for constitutional democracy as long as the shelves are stocked at Wal Mart.
Now I ask, how are we to be polite and gracious in our communication with thee fucks we call our congress men and woman, our senate men and woman, when, in point of fact, we should exercise our constitutional prerogative and throw them figuratively to the fucking curb. Help me out here please, words of wisdom when I find words a pale palimpsest to action.
Christy or any of you attorneys, maybe you could give me your take on my questions: Isn’t it essentially unconstitutional to basically negate the fourth amendment as they’re doing with the FISA revision? If it is, why haven’t any of the Senators brought that up, and also, if it is, what would it take to get the Supreme Court to say so once they pass it? If a new administration appoints an AG with guts, could the new AG press a case to throw out the FISA fix on the basis that it negated Amendment Four of the Bill of Rights without the correct procedures to amend the constitution? What am I missing here?
petition sigend. In my real name no less!
The FISA court is acting prudently. They are right, oversight IS CONGRESS”S JOB. They are also right about the seperation of powers issue and the inadvertant declassification issue.
I marvel at their ability to reist the temptation to overstep. It takes real discipline in this climate.
Sorry to be so dumb. Does this present Senate bill, when finished, go to the House? Or do they have their own start from scratch version?
By the way a little honey or whisky or both is good for a cure.
I just called my senator’s office ….again. This would be Sen Tim Johnson, SD. I asked for something besides a form letter on this issue as I do not understand what Sen Johnson is standing for and why does it appear that he stands for the telecoms and corporate interests and not those of “we the people” I explained that I volunteered for his campaigns in the past and I have to question my support as I do not know who he is anymore. I stated that the other thing that irritated me to no end was the apparent fact that he thinks we are afraid. I said that he underestimates what we are made of and our own strength of character. My final question was to ask, where was Sen Johnson’s strength of character?
I will probably get another form letter.
Feingold has brought that up, repeatedly, in the SJC and on the Senate floor. And yes, there will likely be fourth amendment challenges to this if it passes altogether.
(((Christy)))
(((Peanut)))
(((Mr. Reddhead)))
In the tea…..
Where were the major problems with rule of law among Democrats before Bush? Isn’t this a new illness? On this issue, I simply can’t help thinking that there are Democrats out there who, like Bush, don’t want publicized what has been discovered by the illegal wiretapping. And thus does Bush transform his opponents into his friends.
I know it’s paranoid, but I thought I was paranoid back in the early 70s about Nixon. Ha!
Signed and dug
In that case the challenge for us is
How do teach them to see this issue (and several other important issues) the way we do?
If respect for the rule of law is not obvious to them, how do we teach it to them?
With a h/t to the Montgomery County MD Green Blog,
Apocryphal no doubt, but somehow appropriate.
Signed.
I let DiFi know what I thought about the Senate’s vote, earlier.
!@#$%^&*s. Can we arrange for the Potomac to be re-routed through the Capitol?
Blue-Dog Democrats are a bigger problem that are the Republicans.
A blue-dog incumbent has to be beaten in a primary where he/she is the incumbent. And then the challenger has to beat the Republican candidate.
let’s play “the moment of truth”. if you could ask one question of anyone, who would you pick and what question would you ask?
Barbara Boxer seems like a normal human being. Why can’t there be more like her in the Senate?
Dick Cheney: Under what circumstance won’t you leave office on 1/20/09?
Normally, if Congress passes a bill that is unconstitutional and is becomes law, at some point, someone challenges the constitutionality of that bill in court.
FISA is a bit more tricky, because you have to have standing to sue and by it’s very nature, you probaly won’t know if you do have standing. Sigh
Christy at #28, Thanks for the answer. I wondered where I’d heard that, and I thought it was right immediately, but I didn’t know it was Feingold that mentioned it. I thought maybe Dodd, but I didn’t think they said it on the Senate floor. Certainly is intriguing that the Senate we elected to represent us in making the laws has gone so far over the line to break the very laws they made, and also to accommodate a President to also break the laws and trash the Constitution.
LHP,
I think Ann was asking if a new AG would have standing. It seems to me like a possibility, since the AG is tasked with enforcing the law. Wouldn’t that mean the AG would have standing to challenge a law believed to be unconstitutional?
great point – why cant these dems vote as dems? they definitely need to be primaried if thats a word…
Just heard Rangel On Thom Hartman say exactly this.
my gooper rep is so far up Bush’s ass that to call his office insults my intelligence.
other ideas?
My representative is Peter Hoekstra.
Yeah. Fat chance.
Still, I signed the petition and wrote in the comments that Mr. Hoekstra had made abundantly clear that he had no trust in the American judicial system or the rule of law.
And don’t even mention Debbie Stabenow…I voted for her reluctantly last in 2006, but this plus the bankruptcy bill is too much.
I’m so depressed.
Signed. Thanks, Christy, for your great work!
I noticed that the petition said, “We urge Democratic House members to stand firm behind the bill they passed…” After doing a little research, I saw that five Republicans also voted for the RESTORE act. Probably wouldn’t hurt to encourage them, too.
Dodd up now on CSPAN2
From McJoan
sen dodd upnow
AG is supposed to enforce the law, not challenge the law. AM I missing something about this question?
AG can challange a state law the conflicts with a federal law, but how would the AG have standing to challenge a federal law? That would make AG more powerful than Congress and Prsident combined.
Am I misunderstanding something here?
Dodd!
he is brave but he got punked by reid on UC.
http://isen.com/blog/2008/02/f…..pdate.html
- Tom
Sorry to be so angry and thanks for the education…..I think.
I am one crazy motherf747er, mad as hell and unable to think straight and I have never been able to stay inside the lines, so when I calm down and read all that is said here, I have to tip my hat to all and Christy, thanks for what you do as I have said many times.
just unloaded on Bayh’s office.. (I think that, upthread, I mentioned pissin’ into the wind?)
Buh-bye, Bayh.
Glenn makes a good observation about this today in Update III to Amnesty Day for Bush and lawbreaking telecoms.
how does “makes sense to wrap it up” = I will fillibuster?
That would be nice
No, Dodd got what he could under very difficult circumstances — including a large window of time to explain why this bill runs contrary to the rule of law. And why passing it is an appalling lapse.
We can’t always win every vote. But we can make sure that when the other side wins, it’s as painful as possible — and that their sell-out tendencies are exposed for all the world to see. They want to cover Dick Cheney’s ass, then they have to do so with a big, fat spotlight on their complicity. Dodd and Feingold brought the halogen bulbs for the afternoon.
That is the core argument I had throughout the 90s when arguing with other Liberals about Bill Clinton and all the other names that never seem to go away. I started noticing a common theme from defenders of “Centrism,” where they’d say, …”at least we have a Dem in there, so what’s the worry?”
Ugh. That drove me nuts as these supposed Dems would continue to sellout our country and Constitution over and over again. It is this complacency within Liberal circles that the “centrist” counts on. This is one reason the whole Blue America thing is like a dream come true for me.
Thank god the Blogoverse came around when it did. In the 90s, I was started to think I was crazy since no one ever seemed to understand this, but once we all could start connecting with each other, it was clear there are many of us out there.
As evidenced by the recent losses of John Laesch and Mark Pera however, two excellent Blue America candidates, it is clear we really have to get more people on board with us to put a leash on the Bush-dogs for good.
Its clear that this FISA fiasco has to be laid squarely at the feet of Harry Reid. If he had started with the SJC bill, this likely would not have happened. And his setting the required votes precisely to require the 3 the opponents of immunity would not get, as so aptly described by Glenn Greenwald far better than I could possibly hope to do, also is squarely laid at his feet. Now its up to Nancy “subpoena power is important but impeachment is off the table so that our subpoenas can be ignored” Pelosi to procedurally prevent telcom immunity getting through the House. Likelihood of that happening? Slim. Its clear that the Democratic “leadership” in both the House and Senate is totally ineffective and needs to be replaced.
Chalk it up to wishful thinking, I guess.
Dodd makes the point that the telecoms’ “patriotic sense of duty” stopped some time ago when the govt didn’t pay the bill…
heh.
Jump on the Obama-bus, man. It’s a totally groovy place. It’ll give you a high that’ll last for months. All your worries will melt away.
Then work like hell to get some Blue America candidates elected!
more and BETTER!
I suppose it’s time to write, phone, or fax Congress and the media the public’s outrage at the FISA fiasco. My cynicism grows daily, however. How effective have all of Conyers, Leahys and Waxman’s letters of outrage been? How does democracy end? Not with a bang but with a whimper.
whoa
I called the DNC to voice my concern and dismay with the outrageous passage of the F.I.S.A. Act with the immunity provision.I was not even given the courtesy of expressing my opinion.The phone was hung up on me.
I am outraged. These people do not represent our interests.A targeted campaign of blogheads needs to respond to this outrage. I have been a lifelong Democrat, but no more. These people do not represent the Democratic party that I once knew.These people need to be taught a lesson.They need to be defeated and most of them choose to vote for this because they are in tight races and thought this was a safe position.We need to send a message- we need to start a movement. Who cares?
Totally OT:
Huh. Never knew this. Clinton’s Media person is married to Matthew Cooper.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9795378/
Damn, DeeCee is such an incestuous place. We need to bust up that racket.
Obama/Edwards!
How many of the 8 amendments have been voted on?
I know someone that completely agrees with you, and she could use your help. Now.
http://cindyforcongress.com/
Nice zinger! It sucks what Reid did to him.
and there you have it in a nutshell….. 1 or 2 degrees of separation in the dc beltway and they all play ring around a rosie… and we get fucked!! no other way to say it.
Dodd:
“The single largest of invasion of privacy in our country.”
Patriotism? “They stopped collecting the data… when the federal government stopped paying them.”
Yup. They practice pocketbook patriotism.
And if the telecoms are ever investigated and found guilty of invading our privacy, would the penalty be anything more than a slap on the wrist? I doubt it very much.
Bluetooth a demonstartion in D.C. is called for- what telecom company refused
to participate in this fiasco ?-we all need to subscribe to that service. The blog police read this as we communicate.
If we don’t do something about it soon, we’ll all be “ashes…ashes…we all fall down.”
slightly OfT – before I unload on Lugar – is the final vote on FISA to take place yet today?
looseheadprop at #52
February 12th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Is there a law against a citizen suing every Senator that voted for such a blatantly unconstitutional law as this FISA fix with retroactive immunity. After all, they are infringing our civil rights!
All of you are writing about how things will be challenged, how we can still fight, hoping for reasoned discourse when I see shit and the country I proudly served go into the tank by the death of a thousand cuts so I will keep reading what you have to say in the hope that my my glass becomes half full-he said with a grimace, knowing he won’t quit the battle
Good points Bonker@69..+1 almost-forgive my cynicism
I just wrote to Senator Dodd, with my deepest thanks for what he’s doing.
How’s this? Obama/Dodd?
Does open-ended and limitless FISA surveillance by government (Protect America Act) mean that democracies die with or without a whimper?
No let Dodd stay in the Senate where he can keep the next President honest, or at least attempt to keep him/her honest. If he leaves the Senate, the R governor of CT gets to replace him.
someone said in an earlier thread’s comments…. ” we’re pissing in the wind” – i’m afraid thats true b/c we have no leadership looking out for us – only care about corporate interests imo
Dugged and signed.
TPM Muckraker posted this from Dodd…
Law AGAINST suing? Not that comes to mind. But what would be the basis of your claim? You have to have legally cognizable cause of action.
Also, under th Speech and Debates Clause, members of Congress have always been immune from suit for the things they say on the floor of their repsective chamber. I don’t know whether a yeah or ney would fall under that, as opposed to actuall debate and speechifying
Any whimpering will be recorded and used against you in a kangaroo court.
Christy, thank you for being here, even with a sick family. It’s not an official FISA day without you.
(btw – I left an email for you — you’re busy, so, when you have time. thanks again.)
That’s nice, but if the House totally caves and just passes the Senate version, Dodd doesn’t get another chance.
Maybe I’m a bit too down to be prognosticating, but I give the House only a 50/50 chance of not totally caving and this being over by Thursday.
It’s obvious that a exam on the Constitution needs to be given to anyone applying to run for the US House or Senate. A real one, and a rigorous one. If they don’t pass, they’re not able to run. If they pass and are elected, and vote to undermine the Constitution, an immediate election needs to be held to replace them. The first time.
Problem is, would Congress ever pass such a bill?
In a follow-up opinion (FISC Docket No.: MISC. 07-01), the FISA Court has again punted the issue of overreach by the Bush Administration on classification questions back to Congress.
Where the hell are all those “activist judges” when we need them?
interesting read about clinton/monsanto
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org…../05/p23068
I have the same problem, in spades. MY gooper rep is Tom Cole, chairman of the RNCC!
when you talk about standing, isn’t this a situation that could use the creative thinking done in the case of “Should Trees Have Standing?”
And I mean from all that we know, we know all of our communications have been captured and examined(at the least elctronically) therdfore automatically our rights were violated.
How did Germany cope with the Nazi laws put in place under Hitler? Did they just scrap the government and start all over, or did they remove the damage? It is, in fact, unfortunately very similar.
Because it’s secret, we can’t know if our communications have been hoovered and because we can’t/don’t know, we don’t have standing and we can’t have standing without knowing.
Catch-22 comes to reality of 2008
Great idea a little perker upper think I will take you up on the offer and brew a pot up!
It’s always darkest before dawn…so
“direct your feet to the sunny side of the street”.
Christy you are doing a wonderful response to a tough situation. I was happy to be able to sign the petition to restore America and forward it to 10 for now.
I have an idea that may be useful…can we ask each of the critters that voted “wrong” to explain their vote to us their constituents so we can make THE CASE?
We have the complete list with their votes we could ask that list from the last FISA in the House to contact most needed or what their position may be. I feel if we all put in X amount of time on this project daily we may develop momentum for a better outcome.
Thank you for getting Glenn to the table: this is wonderful news and so fast.
Whack! Whack! Whack!
No, I’m saying there’s a logical way out of that catch-22. We just haven’t thought of it yet.
That was the sound of my head banging onto the keyboard
looseheadprop at #86
February 12th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
”I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.”
How about not fulfilling their oath of office?
Gasp.
“Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia rejected the notion that US courts have any control over the actions of American troops at Guantanamo Bay, argued that torture of terror detainees is not banned under the US Constitution and insisted that the high court has no obligation to act as a moral beacon for other nations.”
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/….._0212.html
Signed and sent to friends, Christy!
I’m fighting for no other reason than to know that giving up is what they want us to do. And that’s reason enough for me to keep going!
Hi Christy, hope all of you get well soon !
Just a suggestion, please make the petition an entirely new post so that it gets more notice and we can encourage others to digg it, so that it goes viral.
Public pressure has to be brought to bear on the House, so they don’t cave to this transgression like the Senate did.
Am I honked off about this? Oh no, not at all.
Could we start electing Senators who are smart enough to remember their oath of office?
I signed.
“Give us back our rights. Right Now.”
Well, the only people who have made it out of the Catch-22 did so when the gov’t f*ck’d up and released information to lawyers by mistake confirming that they’d been surveiled. And then tried to claim state secrets and stuf the genie back into the bottle. I think that’s one of the reasosns the TelCos have been so hot on this as they got caught.
Yes. With Glenn working with us, our voice is amplified.
I’ve a pot of Republic of Tea’s Decaf Pomegranate Green Tea to share.
Maybe this has been asked. If this abomination passes is it possible to appeal to the courts. Yeah, I know, Roberts court mentality up and down the line…but what are the ramifications if it’s declared unconstitutional?
I’m so discombobulated that I can’t even compose a coherent letter to the editor of my local paper. Ken Salazar was twice elected to be the Attorney General of the state of Colorado. You would think that that might imply he cared about enforcing the law, but based on his votes today, you would be wrong. Two years from now when his term expires, I am going to remember this day and work very hard to replace him.
Called Lugar’s office.
suggested to the staffer that if the Senator is so unconcerned about 4th Amendment right, I’d extend an open invitation to him to walk into court with me on any given day on a 4th, search and seizure issue, and let him tell the judge “Well, yeah, it’s obvious that the officers violated the law, but I’m confident that their hearts were in the right place, so why don’t we just forget that”?
And then, I told the staffer, we’d just sit back for a moment and wait to see how long it would take for that judge to nuke the case, bounce his butt out of court, and file a complaint with the Disciplinary Committee…
They took my name, mailing address, e-mail address, and home phone number.
Just sayin’…
That’s the ticket every time if you study history-acquiescence in the thought that you can control those that want power even as you give it to them.
h/t Naomi Wolf
Open source revolution as tw3k talked about two threads back is one answer. The internet community is very creative. Open source is a way of building and managing programing that is ever evolving. An open source revolution would put in place programs that would keep us from being spied on. It is fighting fire with fire. The internet community is so vast that any modifications and innovations the government and/or the telecoms can make would be voided in days.
Suggestion: Send the petition to the Obama and Clinton campaign people…they send out emails to everyone on their lists all the time, maybe they’ll send out the petition too.
Dodd got punked by Reid, when Reid refused to honor his hold on this bill. Note that Reid had honored every other hold from either side.
Send the petition to Dodd’s office, he has a huge mailing list…and Kennedy’s too.
“…that torture of terror detainees is not banned under the US Constitution…”
Drawing and quartering isn’t mentioned either. Is that also okay?
These folks will go to any length, however absurd, to achieve their authoritarian fantasies, won’t they?
Very strong chamomile tea would be the ticket…calm me doooown.
Get well Christy, as I am getting what you have-does it travel across the ozone?
And Kerry’s office too.
You can digg the actual petition here!!!
Thanks Smgumby … doing it now !
Forgive my ignorance but I am not hip to Digg-help?
Will gladly enhance this little virus.
I’ve provided a link at my place. Might bring one or two more folks over here, you never know.
See Here
I think a class on the Constitution should be mandated in high schools.
Repubs have no problem mandating “under god” to the Pledge, so I’m sure they’d have no problem voting to have a mandatory class on Constitution.
Although perhaps not, since that’s such a Liberal document…you know, just simply what America was founded on. Move along here….nothing to see.
Quest was the hold out, and their CEO soon ended up in jail, IIRC.
yep, thanks!
Soon after I learned Quest said no, I tried to switch all my services to them… …not available in my area (except basic phone).
Now years later, still not available in my area.
But that’s OK, since my congressional reps don’t listen to me, it is a nice thought that someone in the government cares enough to listen…
Blog: Impeach calls jam Conyers’ phones
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/30952
- Tom
They took my name, mailing address, e-mail address, and home phone number.
Welcome to about a dozen watch lists, I hope you don’t have to fly too often.
The internet community is so vast that any modifications and innovations the government and/or the telecoms can make would be voided in days.
And since it is a topic that is now covered by State Secrets, it is not a far stretch for open source to be considered spying and treasonous.
As my part to play in this drama I decided to focus on the money. So I wrote some of the top telco financial analysts. The ones who get quoted in the New York Time and WSJ and asked them.
1) “How much money will getting immunity save the telcos in fines?”
2) “Which executives will avoid any kind of criminal or civil court cases if they get immunity?”
These two questions will tell us a lot about the amount of money and energy that will be expended on the effort to get immunity.
Will they spend 10 million to save the time and cost of a $200 million dollar law suit that would tie up execs for months? You bet.
Now will any of the business sections of the papers look at this angle? No. Why not? Is it not big enough? Maybe they all know it is a done deal. Maybe they will tell the stock holders that they took care of this little problem using their government relations budget so they shouldn’t worry about the stock price. If so, it would be interesting to hear them go on record how much that cost them. So that the rest of the world can see that they knew they were wrong and they spent what they needed to win.
Finantial analysts pride themselves on noting what might be a “material event” that would help or hurt the stock. Were they told that “immunity was in the bag?” (I asked that question too.)
Now if someone in the press wanted to approach this issue from another angle (not the “Terror!” Dem v. Rep! Bush with no Warrants!) and just follow the money that would be bloodless as well as expose just how serious the telcos were taking this and how far they were willing to go.
What we don’t have is a dedicated team of lobbyists fighting THEIR lobbyists. It would be nice if there was a group of people whose job it is to get the telcos to obey the law could step in, but I guess that group has other priorities.
are you suggesting that I take this as a badge of dis-honor?
Or that I would for some reason assume that I’m not already on some scary fucking lists?
feh.
I knew that Reid would sell out … how can that man look at himself in the mirror ?
You are a traitor to America, Harry Reid !
Can’t open source be anonymous?
Perhaps my biggest frustration in all of this is the fact that the whole thing has gone largely un-covered. And, in so far as their was coverage, the coverage was filled with inaccuracies, untruths, and flagrant lies; witness today’s WSJ editorial. Perhaps some groups like MoveOn should take out ads to get what has happened into public notice. I for one would like those who voted for this to pay dearly for trampling our rights. Somehow we need to get some light on this matter.
Dishonor? Not at all. We all should go into this with both eyes open and realize that this is not going to be pretty or neat in any way. We are going into this with what can only be compared to the risks that were taken by the Founding Fathers when they opposed the other George. All of our finances, all of our liberties, and all of our relationships with our families and friends are at stake here.
Let there be no illusions as to how far this may go. We need to decide just how much we are willing to lay on the line for the sake of our country.
Leahy up on C-SPAN 2.
thanks!
Yes, in use. However, the open source movement is predicated on an ability to collaborate with other coders to create the open source code. That communication takes place over the Internet, and is provided by those same telcos that are on the brink of obtaining immunity.
So, the key is finding a way to fly under the radar.
Stand up!! Yes!!!!!!! and in the words of Nick Van Exell..Fuck ‘em
… might I suggest a popular automobile used in circuses … no one would be the wiser … *g*
Thank you my friend
Per Glenn Greenwald’s Update III:
The aisle has move, and I fear that our remaining candidates are not on our side of it. Perhaps we can get the to reach across the aisle and select a progressive for VP by holding our support hostage the way the conservatives are doing with McCain.
:)
Don’t beat a dead battery. :)
I again repeat Arianna Huffington’s remark on Bill Maher last season:
FORGET BIPARTISANSHIP until we get rid of the law breakers in Congress and elsewhere (1600), we can get alll “bipartisan” when the crazies are GONE!
HERE HERE!
s
Signed and sent to my friends but no point in calling my representative Joe Knollenberg. The only thing to do with him is support Gary Peters in November. I’m going to call Pelosi even though there is probably no point in doing that either.
LEAHY is totally ROCKING ON! He’s nailing the details pretty hard! GOOD FOR HIM!
FUCK BIPARTISANSHIP
yeah. THERE IS THAT! and i agree!
lol
“Their rule is no accountability.” – Leahy. GO, Pat!
thank you, and what an excellent reference. Nick Van Exell, a hard-ass, annoying and lethal little point guard, as was I, though, obviously, to a lesser extent.
I loved that one!
Leahy: We don’t protect ourselves if we don’t protect our rights.
Well, LHP the ultimate Federal Law IS the CONSTITUTION. Strangely enough, the original use of Presidential Signing Statements was to serve notice to Congress that a President wouldn’t obey an Unconstitutional law passed by Congress…and that if Congress wanted to compel him to do so…well take it to the Courts.
So a President could tell the Atty General to disobey Congress and to continue to follow what he believed was a Constitutional law.
Leahy asking that the vote take place at 5:30 today.
If America votes out its freedoms, the terr’ists win.
Just sayin’
OT: Not sure what’s happening with Paul Krugman, but now Hillary’s using his quotes in an ad. Too bad she couldn’t use Bill’s Sec of Labor, Robert Reich who has been disagreeing with Krugman about this health care proposal stuff.
http://robertreich.blogspot.co…..bamas.html
Krugman has been a very important voice on so many issues. I wish he’d give the Obama-hating a rest though.
http://pmcarpenter.blogs.com/p…..-me-m.html
I’ve been thinking and listening more about the mandate issue, and I’m convinced it’s not good to have a mandate. I don’t see why I should be forced to partake in flawed system, and there are other PhD economists other than Krugman that agree with that assessment. Us healthy people or those who choose traditional remedies are not the problem…it’s the extreme amount of profit-taking at every level, which then encourages all kinds of unecessary treatments, since that increases profits and that’s what makes prices so high. Obama doesn’t have mandates in his plan, and I like that a lot. Hopefully we can get to a Canada-style system in my lifetime.
ya know, pretty soon here, I’m gonna be able to do the entire, alphabetized, list of Senators, from memory…
a sign of geekdom, to be sure.
The problem is that Bushco doesn’t acknowledge the constitutionality of The Constitution. They have couped the country in all but name…no, nevermind…they’ve even done that, “The Homeland”.
yes. And, we all know that not all of the terrorists have rags on their heads. (sorry for the rag reference…)
OT, with apologies.
There’s a big broo-haha in Beserkeley over the City Council’s vote to declare the military recruitment office non grata. As a strongly anti-war constituent, I nevertheless happen to disagree with the policy. Now it’s turned into a national story. To save time, we could have just poked ourselves in the collective eye with a sharp stick.
So today punaisette (high school freshman) asks me to call the attendance office to excuse her from afternoon classes in order to attend the Code Pink demonstrations across the street. Caught up in the energy of the moment.
Anyway, it’s a good learning experience. Something to talk about around the dinner table tonight.
I do not have the expertise to explain this, but Mary from Emptywheels thread has the following comment:
It may not be a winner, but there needs to be a taxpayer standing suit filed. Actually – from a theoretical standpoint, it SHOULD be a winner, but with these judges and the tough history on taxpayer standing suits, it won’t be. Still, Congress has pretty much acted to disenfranchise the judiciary and violate separation of powers and to override the plain and simple meaning of the fourth amendment by giving amnesty for violation by federal actors (the telecoms acting as fed gov agents under color of law from the AG “administrative warrants”) of the Fourth Amendment.
Granted, if it’s no a religion/education suit, they typically get nowhere, but this is pretty untypical behavior – Congress seeking to issue de facto pardons for violations of the Constituion AND seeking to encourage and solict corporations in the future to also act as govt agents to violate the Constitution, whenever the opportunity avails.
A possibility?
“If America votes out its freedoms, the terr’ists win.”
No, I think you have it backwards.
Remember: the terrorists hate us because we are free. Ergo, if we cease to be free, they won’t hate us anymore. Et voila, no more war.
In short, Jello is the one of the few Democrats who is actually ending the war, as we asked. That you all are being so ungrateful is disgusting.
The Democrats picked Reid as leader. They keep him their, unchallenged. He must be doing what they want him to do.
As long as retired NBA players are being mentioned, today is Bill Russell’s 74th birthday.
Sign of a good upbringing? Good for her.
If the constitution is no longer valid and all federal authority is based on the constitution. Then does the federal government in fact have authority?
jeeze…many of us are still trying to fight the ATT ’slamming’ practices- the scam where a landline long distance provider was illegitimately switched to ATT.
…I’d like to apply for retroactive immunity please, for anything.
Cool!
Pink!
yeah. LOL
Makes ya wanna run out and DO SOMETHING illegal, doesn’t it????
j/k
Very kool impeachment…go Conyers…go Code Pink!!! Sunny thoughts.
Hey punaise!
Quebecois! – quoi de neuf?
Not much, looking at shreds of the constitution blowing in the wind…
entropyjones February 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm 169
If the constitution is no longer valid and all federal authority is based on the constitution. Then does the federal government in fact have authority?
Interesting…wouldn’t it take a constitutional amendment to remove rights as the fourth amendment provides us?
what’s the point of signing anything anymore? It doesn’t help and the Dems cave every time. I think its time everyone just pack up and go home and turn the country over to Bush and Cheney. It does no good to call, sign a petition or get the word out. Bush&Cheney are going to make sure something catastrophic happens to this country so that they can suspend the 2008 elections, or if not, elections will be rigged so that a Republican stays in power. Please don’t forget, Romney only suspended his election, he didn’t withdraw. And we can all forget about impeachment, it will never happen, too close to the elections. It would cost the Democrats dearly. It should have been the first order of business in January 2007. Pelosi took care of that. As a matter of fact, the Dems in the House and Senate should just all go home. Your half-hearted efforts are useless.
What a sad day for America.
FISA is not a constitutional amendment?
But the comment was not about Bush, but an AG in a subsequent administration who would challenge the law in Court, wasn’t it.
Nope, a law.
I think if this was the Republicans instead of the Democrats bringing the bill to the conference, the RESTORE Act being the bill that comes out would have been a done deal before Harry Reid even started negotiating with McConnell over vote counts on the amendments. Let McConnell and Bush get their way and then poke them in the eye just when they think they’re in the clear. Is it just me? Sadly I fear that the Democratic leadership probably never even considered it.
Woulda been nice to see though…
you have my vote,support and money. this makes a lot of sense to me,
I don’t know why anything surprises me anymore, but this one really shocks me. There really is no excuse for this. !
Ok, totally off topic but I need a h/t to a survey of health care costs and quality of service – I recall reading WHO/OECD data that ranked the US, UK, France, New Zealand, Germany and Australia in multiple dimensions… google isn’t helping so maybe the FDL brain trust has it book marked?