The time to hear from whistleblowers is now.

But we knew this was coming, didn’t we? It’s been kabuki for the past month.

342 days and counting Bush, better get yer ass covered between now and then eh?
Not to worry, the Dem leadership has your back, buddy, pal, rubber of bald heads.

” Our progress in degeracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. “

A. Lincoln

Per DailyKos, Harry Reid evidently sent this to the caucus this morning:…

Well, I’m not a member of “the caucus”, but if it were so, my response would be - “Aw - blow me, Harry…”

this has been nothing but kabuki.
I think any sentiments i would express about this fiasco would get me banned from firedoglake.

fight the power.

Does that mean Reid could successfully stop the bill…or should I say “would”…?

On Kagro’s point: Bush (and especially Cheney) have implicitly asserted that FISA per se is unconstitutional, and that there’s no controlling authority to the commander-in-chief’s authority to perform wartime surveillance, where ‘wartime’ means ‘all the time’.

So the OLC will be busy drafting the law of the land, as it applies to the executive branch. As it has since 2001. Except that the Senate is now giving it ass-coverage.

Jane and all Firedogs,
Forgive my late arrival, Where’s Christy?
This wasn’t what I wanted to wake up to. :(
(watching cspan2)

i had to change the channel…. its maddening…. exactly what are the dems doing? or should i say - who are they pleasing cuz it sure as hell aint citizens… talking about voting against their own best interests….. damn!!

Reid is a lubrication specialist, ‘The Greaseman”.
It wouldn’t have come this far without his special attention.

we expect Sen. Reid to oppose cloture and oppose final passage of the bill.

Would this do any good (ie block the bill) or is it just (sigh!) more kabuki?

Dem leadership pep talk to the rest: “Stop ya worryin’! The ignorance or short-term memory of our constituents will probably keep most of us deadwood in till our terms expire, as long as we continue to register a pulse. Now let’s get out there and vote (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)!”

I wonder when Congress is going to wake up and realize they don’t matter anymore?

Ruck Fied.

-G

Watch the proceedings for too long and get so sick you can’t spell, hence
degeneracy… ht scott horton.

Bush should just go ahead and pull a Cromwell and march a pack of troops into Congress and tell them to go home.

-G

But we knew this was coming, didn’t we?

When it’s set up so that 60 votes are required to amend anything that came outta Jello Jay and Kit Bombed’s Committee - yeah, there was never really any way any amendment was gonna pass.

Thanks to all who joined the effort.

Jane. You and Christy are just awesome.

I’ll try one more time, then leave you guys alone to plot and mope s’more, as more is definitely called for.

Pretty PLEASE?? Does anyone know if OH Sen. Sherrod Brown is there, and how he voted?

I have just E mailed the DNC that I will no longer support in any way the Democratic Party! I asked to be removed from any funding requests and to strike my E mail address and to no longer send me any information or any requests as of today. I will attempt to locate a party or group that offers me the positions that I can support.And, that pary or group is the one that will get my vote.
18 “Democratic Senators” voted against the Dodd amendment and by doing that they have shown just jhow corrupt this party is. RI is the final straw. May they all rot in hell!

She mentioned in an earlier thread that a sick Peanut and sick Mr. ReddHedd were at home today, both requiring her attention.

Who is someone for whom the progressive community could request “retroactive immunity?”

he probably would if he could find the door…

Reid is a lubrication specialist, ‘The Greaseman”.Greasepit is more like it!
It wouldn’t have come this far without his special attention.

Lots of votes this morning, so I’m not sure which one(s) you mean. Still, you can check out the official record of Senate votes here, usually within an hour or so of when they happen.

Thanks PeterR. Not a fun day for her anywhere, a’tall.

lots of happy, smiling faces on the floor at the moment.

Just another day, eh Senators?

He’s just laughing his butt off. He seized control years ago, and they’ve handed him the keys. Mindboggling.

Congress: The dog that never barked.

I would add one important caveat to Glenn Greenwald’s statement of:

…thus forever putting an end to any efforts to investigate and obtain a judicial ruling regarding the Bush administration’s years-long illegal spying programs aimed at Americans…

For the rest of this Administration is not forever.

Junya and Deadeye may think that giving retroactive immunity to the Telcos (as is likely with our cowering Congress) provides an impenetrable shield against this Administration’s criminal behavior, but soon there will be another Administration!

The next Administration will be a Democratic Administration, and will have the powers to declassify anything Junya and Deadeye have classified.

Junya and Deadeye’s attempt to shield themselves from FISA criminal violations by invoking State Secrets at the Judicial level and by intimidating Congress to pass Telco retroactive immunity ain’t gonna be sufficient to cover their asses.

Junya may even grant blanket FISA violation pardons to his underlings on the way out of office, but he can’t grant one to himself.

Folks who think the war is lost when Congress finally caves on Telco retroactive immunity mistakenly conflate it as losing the war instead of the truth, losing a battle.

I’m not suggesting that losing the battle is my preferred choice, but instead pointing out that the war will continue.

We ain’t surrendering anytime soon! Our cause is just. We will prevail!

Oh, that Harry Reid and his dry powder. Such a clever Majority Leader Senate Democrats have chosen for themselves!

Bush should just go ahead and pull a Cromwell and march a pack of troops into Congress and tell them to go home.

I’m not sure that’s really necessary since they don’t seem too interested in challenging his authority.

Might I suggest that strong encryption is now your friend? It’s not much compared to the magic boxes that slurp the internets, but it’s something.

I want my Constitution back.

Or do we just need a new one?

Peterr. Thank you much. I knew it’d be complicateda mess.
He stood strong with Dodd before, so I was hoping. I appreciate the link. I’ll go check.

God, I hope you are right.

Har to have an Open Source Revolution if everything is encrypted ;)

Ms. Landrieu - once again in, casts the wrong vote, is ignored by every other Senator, and slinks out the back…

I want to emphasize this so everyone grasps it:

The two contenders in the general election were on the floor voting today. Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain McBush were there voting.

Senator Hillary Clinton who has become so giddy trying to woo John Edwards and phone Super Delegates to steal the election was not present.

I find it interesting that Obama is voting today and Clinton is not. (His votes have been in favor of Feingold and Dodd amendments BTW)

let’s give some thought to an educational campaign and national day of privacy when we all begin to use those tools.

Here’s what we can do. Contact and call out each Senator individually. Everybody can focus on just one or two. Make ‘em defend what they did. Especially important to make ‘em defend it publicly if possible.

I want my Constitution back.

Or do we just need a new one?

I’m not sure, but is worth discussing. I think the Constitution we have would work if the powers that were to employ it, did so.

The question that needs to be asked of all of the presidential nominees — Are you going to give BushCo a pass on the criminal wrongdoings of their administration? If not, when can we expect the declassification to begin?

Retroactive Immunity for the telecoms, is imo, blatantly unconstitutional as a denial of due process.

Of course, it would take, say, a United States Supreme Court to make that final determination…

fuck it - never mind….

The two contenders in the general election were on the floor voting today. Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain McBush were there voting.

With all the support he has, Obama could have made this a significant issue in his campaign.

He didn’t. Showing up to vote isn’t good enough.

Cloture vote now. Will we even get 30 no’s?

You could try CAPS also but, seriously, I think most people here are reading pretty much everything and commenting if and as they choose.
Just a wild guess from this corner, per usual….

I find it interesting that Obama is voting today and Clinton is not. (His votes have been in favor of Feingold and Dodd amendments BTW).

I find it perfectly appropriate and not suprising given that Clinton’s contribution list reads like a Who’s Who of Telcos, Comcos (ISP’s) and their huge lobbying law firms.

Clinton is a puppet of the Corporate Giants. I have good information that she 1) Had Transportation 2) Had Freedom of Movement and needed no one’s permission to perform as a Senator today 3) She knew the coordinates of the Senate and Capitol Hill and could have been there but I have seen her live trying to campaign for some election in which she still perceives herself viable.

If James Madison were alive I can imagine him vomiting into a toilet about now.

Said in my best Maxwell Smart voice:

Would a troop of boyscouts with slingshots suffice?

-G

Ypu are assuming that Junya and Deadeye will not destroy everything before they leave. The emails show a precedent. They will leave no trail whatsoever.

Oi. Could you imagine the circus behind a new constitution? It feels like a catch-22. The one we have now is pretty useless since it isn’t being followed, and a new one could be even worse. Rights decimated. Guns for everyone. No more courts (cause they are all “judicial activists.”)

Perhaps we can make our points without the extraneous swipes at other candidates?

If, they leave.

Were Obama and Clinton there? Did they vote the right way?

Har to have an Open Source Revolution if everything is encrypted ;)

could you elaborate further on this?

do you mean that we need open source to confirm there is no “back door” access? or something else?

i am seriously interested in the possibility of pursuing these ideas, but i have to leave the computer for a bit. will check back later, tw3k if you have any more to say on this…

best to all who watch and mourn today.

(p.s. even though i won’t be around, i have c-span2 recording. if anything exciting should happen, please let me know and i will post a clip if no one else has already done so).

later friends.

Chimpy will kick over the chess table because he’s losing.

Uncle Dick will whisper: Atta boy.

-G

I gotta say, after Edwards left the race I didn’t know who I was going to support. Obama’s being there today is really swinging me towards him (and I was swinging towards Clinton earlier this week).

Good morning! Glad to see the sun is shining because it is dismil in the senate.

The same cast of characters can do nothing but behave in the same way. Reid is not a leader. His whole background taught him to obey authority first and foremost. He is conditioned by hierarchy and subjugates himself to that heirarchy. He is obedient. Expect nothing more.

Dodd stood and spoke truth to power last night, alone. He is the complete opposite of Harry Reid. We need to press for better leadership. Dodd leading the senate would provide guidance to Pelosi. She desperately needs wise guidance.

We are spinning wheels under Reid’s obediance. How do we press for new leadership?

I don’t trust Busharraf one iota.

Mmmmmm. Revolution.

Official Votes on S. Amendt. 3912(Feingold) and S. Amdt. 3907 (Dodd)

Thanks to The Daily Kos–I am pasting this from Kos because I want to make sure my list is accurate:

The Senate voted on the Dodd/Feingold amendment, which would have stripped retroactive immunity from the surveillance bill just now. The final tally was 31-67; crossing over to vote nay were Sens. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Evan Bayh (D-IA), Daniel Inouye (D-HI), Tim Johnson (D-SD), Herb Kohl (D-WI), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Mark Pryor (D-AR), Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Ken Salazar (D-CO), Tom Carper (D-DE), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Jim Webb (D-VA), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Kent Conrad (D-ND), and Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Update: Here’s the official tally.

Presidential candidates Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Barack Obama (D-IL) were present for the vote – voting nay and yea, respectively.

Be careful what you (wish for/propose/mention/imagine) (circle one)

haven’t been over to EW’s place yet today, but I wonder if she’s caught that Arlen is wearing that same, some-kind-of-excretory-something colored suit that he was wearing the other day?

Note to the Senator from PA - hey, just because the grandkids bought you something awful for Christmas doesn’t mean that you really have to wear it in public…

Said in my best Maxwell Smart voice:

Would a troop of boyscouts with slingshots suffice?

lol!!

Yes!

Phil Zimmerman - who wrote the PGP protocols for email encryption that so threatened the NSA they (abortively) sought to prosecute him - has written zfone, a very robust encryption protocol for encryption of internet-based phone calls.

Barack Obama was there of course and of course he voted “the right way.” He was a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago and he was President of the Harvard Law Review.

Senator Clinton was of course not there. She still is under the illusion she is in a race.

WV hangs it’s head in shame. Jay Rockefeller - what a disgrace.

Order of Vote on Amendments Today

This perspective that Cboldt posted last night on EW might be helpful in following events today:

From Cboldt last night:

I asked:

Who do you think are going to be on the House-Conference commitee and is there any slim chance that the House’s immunity is going to survive?

Cboldt: I don’t believe there will be a conference at all. I’ve expressed that point of view for a couple weeks, and really firmed up my speculation after researching the “form” and historical application of conference committee.

House and Senate differences can be settled by passing amendments back and forth (usually with backchannel communications so the back and forth isn’t done in the dark), but if the House is firm “no immunity,” and the Senate is firm “immunity,” then there is a legislative impasse. A conference doesn’t settle it, unless one body capitulates in conference. Meanwhile, PAA gets extended as necessary.

My magic 8-ball says “Senate passes immunity, House does too.” 50-50 odds on the House making enough noise to embarrass Reid on his scheduling prowess and provoke a second 15 day extension. But even if there is another 15 day extension, or more, the ultimate result is immunity roughly as expressed in the Rockefeller bill.

On the harm Harry Reid did by bringing the SSIC version with Immunity to the floor instead of the SJC version without Immunity to the floor:

Cboldt: If the base bill was absent immunity, it would have made a HUGE difference. Then it would take 60 proponents to get it in. 40 objectors could keep it out.

But the base bill was the reverse of that. Hence, it took 60 votes to strip immunity, instead of to add it.

In the Senate, the base bill has a 60/40 “presumption” running in its favor.

I asked:

If Reid had brought the SJC version of S. 2248 to the floor, given the vote requirements (60) for so many of these amendments or as Glenn Greenwald put it, they made sure that no amendments could possibly pass, do you think that would have made any significant difference in the final outcome of this?

Cboldt: Tough question. I think the answer is yes. I think the choice of SSCI bill as the base / advantaged position was a political calculation. Reid and Pelosi apparently concluded that the heat from “having the advantage” (on the issue of stripping immunity) would result in a heavier political price than the position they took.

If one accepts the proposition that immunity and snooping rules go hand in hand, that snooping rules DEPEND on immunity, then choosing the SJC bill would have been tough to justify “on the numbers” (SSCI out of committee 13-2, SJC on a 10-9, IIRC), as well as on the merits.

I think the “need” for retroactive immunity is fabricated out of thin air. One tell is that from the administration’s point of view, it wasn’t “needed” before April 2007. The administration has fronted FISA amendments since 2005 or so, and certainly AFTER the TSP was disclosed, without retroactive immunity. If retroactive immunity is needed NOW, to get cooperation, it was needed THEN too.

What the administration is advocating is outright elimination of privacy law, as long as the government is doing the snooping. It’s couching that in doubletalk.

Frankly, I think the government will continue to ignore the privacy law anyway, regardless of what it says.

Whitehouse - aye

wtf?

Well said!

This whole FISA and PAA mess has been going on since last summer, and both campaigns have chosen to show up or stay on the campaign trail at various times. Neither Clinton nor Obama have a terribly good record in showing up and speaking out to support Dodd and Feingold.

More importantly for the case of retroactive immunity and such, Obama showing up today and Clinton staying away suggests to me that folks in the Democratic caucus were pretty sure where things were going to end up after all of today’s votes were done — with losses all the way down the line. I find that calculus terribly disappointing.

One can argue about which campaign has made a better choice today — but I guarantee you that that if things were going to be close, both candidates would likely have been in DC for the votes. Obama and Clinton have both played that game before, and likely will again.

”The next Administration will be a Democratic Administration, and will have the powers to declassify anything Junya and Deadeye have classified.”

HAHAHAHAHA.
yeah. And then monkeys will fly out of my ass!

Webb - aye
Feinstein - aye
Specter- aye
Casey- aye

FWIW, zfone is open source.

In contrast, skype’s encryption protocol is not open source. Per Wired, this has raised questions about whether skype’s encryption protocol is secure (and some have already claimed to have hacked it).

Encryption and open-source software are not mutually exclusive.

On the contrary, the latter appears to be a prerequsite to ensure the success of the former.

Mary Landrieu inherited bad genes. Her entire family is corrupt and not too bright. If she tried, she couldn’t do otherwise. Frankly, I’d rather see a Republican in her place because we would never have false hope.

Have you noticed that when she speaks she says gobbledygook? That’s the most her limited brain power can muster. The rest of her relatives are the same. I know Louisiana has many brighter people than this family. The Democratic Party has to stop shutting them out.

What are they voting on?

must. learn. to. ignore.

Gotta go for awhile, dear pups. Back when I can get my steam valve readjusted properly…

pipingpetey. wouldn’t just a link suffice? *sigh*

I think you’ve made your opinion perfectly clear on that point . Let’s not continue this vein, please.

if I’m not mistaken, this is the big one. Complete with retroactive immunity….

I’ll predict 31 noes on cloture, about the same on passage the SSCI bill goes to the House just as Bush wanted it, tied with a little bow. And the Senate will pack up to their offices and start calling us for money.

It’s still nice to see Obama take the time to be there - since we asked them both to take a break from campaigning to vote with us on this, I appreciate it.

But not as much as I appreciate all that Dodd has done - I sent him a small contribution last night to thank him and it would be cool if folks did the same.

Once again the American people will happily be taken advantage of by their own elected government. When will we understand that the mainstream media takes a large part in manipulating our political process and do something about it?

RantingRaver.com

Mr. Bayh - aye -

buh-bye Bayh…

This is the cloture vote. The vote on the bil is later after Dodd gets his four hours.

yeah. And then monkeys will fly out of my ass!

Dibs on the video rights!

Hi Brendan - hope your part of world protects their freedoms better than our sorry nation is doing.

(and do you happen to know anyone who wants to marry a slightly somewhat knocked-about shrink?

Afraid I fail the grand parent form Ireland test by about two generations….but an EU passport sure looks appealiing.

As does the prospect of residency in a democracy.

I feel much better about Obama today because he is showing up and voting. He is showing the understanding of why people elected him.

McCaskill is voting the right way on everything except Dodd-Feingold which ImaPT told us she would not vote for! I am not mad at her yet.

Christy, as a resident who knows his track record well has posted positive accomplishments by Rockerfeller for her state, but I have come to loose all respect for Jay Rockerfeller after his conduct here on FISA.

As Bmaz said last night over at EW so correctly:

It is critical that every one of these jerks, even our own Dems (crikey, especially the Dems) be absolutely pounded mercilessly at every appearance they make and every discussion they enter into while campaigning down the stretch. I care more about the Constitution than I do a Congressional majority; if we win one or two less seats because we held them to account, so be it. There has to be a price paid.

Isn’t there still a house conference to get through on this whole mess? Why would the house back down?

29. The under wins, and the Senate heads off for lunch. Presumably, their friends at the telcos are paying.

Hey Kirk - just yesterday I sent in the paperwork to renew my Irish passport. Just in case!!

You got it, baby. VERY well said.

Don’t forget Feingold. He and Dodd might be the only politicians we still have fighting for us.

It’s too bad that campaign contributions are a thank-you to our senators — a real problem with politics as they now stand. I cannot comprehend how we expect a system that encourages what are essentially bribes (what else can a campaign contribution be called?) to be a reward for taking a particular political position. Is it any wonder that the special interest has completely taken over Washington? We need REAL campaign finance reform.

RantingRaver.com

right - I mean I knew it was the cloture vote, but with such a weak showing, the final vote looks doomed as well.

Dodd gets (only) four hours? didn’t know that. Any other procedural possibilities of which you’re aware?

I am glad I read that. I was about to call up McCaskill’s office and go balistic.

I mean Open Source Revolution in a Gandhi sense. Where all strategy and action is openly discussed without a need for a cypher. After all, people need open access to become involved. Something like Open Insurgency.

ITOH: throw wrenches, encrypt early, encrypt often!

May the road rise up to meet your feet, Helen.

This list by Cboldt in addition to the links I posted may help understand the floor today:

Order of Votes Matt Hamlin and Context of Amendments Cboldt

Calendar of Business Senate February 12, 2008

Order of votes

Whitehouse 3920 (needs 60 to pass)
Feinstein 3910 (needs 60 to pass)
Feingold/Webb 3979
Feingold 3907
Feingold 3912
Bond 3938
Specter/Whitehouse 3927
Feinstein 3919 (needs 60 to pass) [The above 8 votes will take all morning]
Manager’s amendment (not contentious - voice vote or UC passage)
Cloture motion to limit debate on final passage [Will start after policy luncheons]
About 5 hours of post-cloture debate
Vote on final passage [Most likely after 7:30 p.m.]

Yea, but when we get a Democratic Party President all this kind of bullshit will magically go aways. . .in a pigs eye.

Sorry, massively OFF-TOPIC.

Kirk, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel picked up your post about the this:

“Area’s toxins may be sickening people” “Group exposes hidden U.S. report”

Nice work, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Well, if it was only 29 I doubt she voted for cloture. On the Feinstein immunity amendment I am going by TPMMuckraker which didn’t name her.

btw selise posted Dodd’s oration from last night.

I have lived in WV since Jay was governor. I note that he has done much for the state, but his first duty is to defend the Constitution and he clearly has failed to do so repeatedly. Needless to say, I have very little respect left for him.

tw3k - I love that. Sorry I failed to understand the first time around.

And ebw of Wampum will have to move to Switzerland. That was the most powerful emotional appeal of this whole mess.

What we have to do is figure out a way to make the US citizen matter again. “For the People, By the People” is no longer in effect. I don’t know how to do that but it is very obvious that we are not that important to our leaders. General Strike? I don’t know. But we are pretty much invisible right now. Things can’t get much worse.
We email, write letters, fax, protest….and it’s all for naught. Remember Haig’s comment “Let them protest all they want as long as they continue to pay their taxes”. That’s all we are. A cash-cow.
Step one is to change that perspective.

Wyden, Feingold, Kennedy also deserve our thanks because they worked very hard to support Chris Dodd–all of them spent a lot of time to get the correct result as to FISA, and all of them made some outstanding speeches over the course of this battle.

Feingold and Dodd made historic speeches in defense of the Constitution.

np :) was good to hear about zfone too!

Wow Boo - thanks - but I don’t deserve the kudos. Center for Public Integrity broke the story; Truthout picked it up (which is where I saw it).

I’m just really glad the news is spreading - happy to see those links.

Again, thanks.

In response to 4jkb4ia @ 86

I am glad I read that. I was about to call up McCaskill’s office and go balistic.

I’d say go for it anyway.

She’s a former prosecutor, for crying out loud. Since when have prosecutors been big on the defense “someone else told me to do it”?

Prosecutors give immunity in order to get testimony to go after other lawbreakers further up the criminal food chain. They don’t give it away to say “Oh, it’s OK then — never mind.”

4jkb4ia, you may not be angry with McCaskill, but I am.

Any other procedural possibilities of which you’re aware?

To carry out a true filibuster at this point, he would just have to refuse to yield the floor when his allocated time is up. If he were to do this, he would be violating the unanimous consent agreement. I would argue that he should do this, since in essence, his hold could be considered a request for unanimous consent and Harry ignored that. I also would expect some sort of punishment for doing that as well, such as lost committee assignments.

The USA has overthrown 60 different governments. John Pilger told me.

WH gloating over defeated amendments via dana… at least thats my read on it…press briefing on cspan now

Absolutely. Prosecutors should be against immunity. They should be for trials.

If she is supporting Specter-Whitehouse then she is for trials, however. I can accept a difference of opinion there, however weaker Specter-Whitehouse made the bill.

I have 5 or 6 Senators I am much madder at today. They have not put up any kind of fight. They are among the ones who are responsible for Reid bringing this bill as the base bill at all, among other shenanigans. I am generally disgusted.

”The next Administration will be a Democratic Administration, and will have the powers to declassify anything Junya and Deadeye have classified.”

HAHAHAHAHA.
yeah. And then monkeys will fly out of my ass!

When the flock finally flys from their nest can oft times be traumatic.

You have my sympathy!

I’m all for anything that would work. But, in reality, would that work or would he just be delaying the inevitable?

Hi juslin, thanks for the heads.

Peterr:

I am going to call up and ask for an explanation. Then I am going to inform whomever I am speaking with that I voted for McCaskill, volunteered for McCaskill and donated money to McCaskill last go around.

I won’t be volunteering and won’t be donating. I might even withhold my vote. However, as Missouri likes to put people like Talent and Bond in there, I might have to hold my nose and vote for her.

Agreed.

But it would have been better if either or both had taken a much stronger stance on this much earlier. They both certainly had plenty of opportunities to do so. As it is, I’m afraid that today is kabuki all the way around.

*sigh*

Got to go deal with other things . . . catch up with you all later.

up

The two contenders in the general election were on the floor voting today. Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain McBush were there voting.

Senator Hillary Clinton who has become so giddy trying to woo John Edwards and phone Super Delegates to steal the election was not present.

I’m just back from voting. I had intended to vote for Edwards on the theory that there was so little to distinguish between the remaining two contenders that I might just as well vote on principle. However I learned of Ms. Clinton’s disinterest in our Constitution in time to change my mind and vote for Obama. Much to my surprise turnout at our MD suburban DC precinct was just about non-existent.

Since she’s my senator — and she’s supposed to be the good one, what with Bond as the other! — she’s the one I’m upset with today.

YMMV, of course.

Is that in Al Wynn’s district?

I hope I don’t sound like an idiot, but what is “YMMV”?

Your Mileage May Vary ??????????

Is that in Al Wynn’s district?

No. And I hope it’s not any indication of what’s happening there.

Your momma might vomit?

Yet More Manipulative Villains

Perhaps. But an action like that would really get recognition in the press. Keep in mind the public is 60-30 against immunity. (h/t Kitt for the link to the poll). More attention from the public could have an impact, especially if another 15 day extension could be forced.

Yes Men Make Votes

we expect Sen. Reid to oppose cloture and oppose final passage of the bill.

So does this mean, once the vote is certain to mean nothing, Reid will vote against it?

you might like openmoko too.

coreboot is worth looking at as well.

I believe the bill they are debating gives immunity to any person. This inclueds corporations, individuals, POTUS, and his minions…

Is there any way to start a grassroots movement to oust Reid and maybe Pelosi?

Draft Feingold for Senate Majority Leader?

Good point - I gave to Dodd since he still has debt from his pres. bid and he used it well to speak for us.

but hooray Feingold too!

good question! and I REALLY wish someone would respond! thank you.

Exactly…the negative doom and gloom is not for winners.

I have lived in WV since Jay was governor. I note that he has done much for the state, but his first duty is to defend the Constitution and he clearly has failed to do so repeatedly. Needless to say, I have very little respect left for him.

I feel the same way Denise. I always appreciate that one of the unique and nice aspects of a community like this is that we have so many people from most of the states, and I can learn the particulars on the ground in the states better often then I can via newspapers.

The way this played out, very carefully choreographed as to every vote with contingencies as Cboldt pointed out last night was reprehensible. Rockerfeller and others including Blue Dog Democrats in the House with information that has been held secret from most of the House and 80% of the Senate.

This has been very much like foxes in a hencoop urging the chickens to trust the fox a few seconds before they devoured them.

Ooooh….thank you, tw3k.

More tools to fight fascists corporatists - always a good thing.

I’m gonna go read up on the new tools - thanks!

According to Urban Dictionary, this is correct

It is a mystery why Reid and Pelosi remain in leadership positions.

I am surprised that in suburban Maryland as educated as they are and as close to DC as they are with so many people working either in DC or government related venues that turnout was light when you were there.

Thanks for voting for Obama.

I say we primary her. If you have any suggestions who that could be, I’m open to them. This is the only way to hold their feet to the fire. Primary her, if she loses we hopefully get a DEMOCRAT in office and not a BUSH DOG in office. If she wins the primary challenge, we support her, because even a Bush Dog Dem is better than a republican.

McCaskill I mean…

SHIRLEY GOLUB IS ON THE TABLE . . . WATCH HER VIDEO, THEN PLEASE MAKE A DONATION TO HELP KEEP HER THERE:

:)

OK, she voted for cloture. It is official. I am getting madder.

MadDog:

Thanks for your words…Last night a friend asked, “If FISA goes through with very little fight, is there any way to get issues on state ballots to oppose telecom immunity the way gay marriage ended up on some ballots in the last Pres election? I’m not the legislative expert here so, I share this with hopes of a response…It sounded appealing to me…

the dems dont fear us - the great unwashed… if they did dems wouldnt be selling us out as they do on a regular basis - they count on us to have short memories…. me? i’m sick of them!!

Oh - don’t forget to encrypt you computer’s hard disks (and other digital media) when crossing US borders:

Customs agents have the prerogative to examine and even copy data from travelling citizens’ laptops they search, CNN’s American Morning reports.

“A new alert for travellers: be careful what you store on your laptop or your BlackBerry when entering the United States,” warns CNN’s John Roberts. “Customs agents can examine your computer and even keep your private information.”

CNN reporter Jeanne Meserve adds ominously, “Your banking records, your music choices, your emails, your business contacts — all can be examined, copied and stored by the government when you enter the country, if they’re in an electronic device.”

Maybe folks should buy a long-distance card when overseas and use a public phone or cyber cafe and send a few random “apparently encrypted” messages using “key words” and names of Al Qaida members that the NSA will pick up to these wonderful Senators who voted to allow telcom immunity today.

Then they might realize that being spied on for absurd things is simply absurd.

It is a mystery why Reid and Pelosi remain in leadership positions.

Bush has yet to send up some alternate nominees

Here’s an interesting take on this election from Robert Parry
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/021108.html
Some folks here may appreciate his perspective.

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

although I suddenly find myself open to some of the more funny and imaginative versions…

around here, anyway, it’s always been Your Mileage May Vary…

Here’s what has to happen folks. And what’s nice is, it IS doable:

We need a grassroots movement to pass campaign finance reform. We need CFR supporters elected, and CFR opponents defeated. So we need coordination across a decade or so in order to rebuild the Senate.

Then we need to kick the corporations out of Congress by passing real Campaign Finance Reform

NOTHING progressives want will get passed until this happens, unless something happens to dovetail with corporate interests.

Until we get the corporate money out of Congress, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi style corporate sellouts will continue to be the rule, and our Constitution will be eroded by corporate self-interest…

Worse yet, one of her advisors, Jamie Gorelick, is participating in the fight on behalf of the telcos. Per Glenzilla:

Gorelick, needless to say, is an enthusiastic contributor to the Hillary Clinton campaign (as well as to Joe Lieberman’s). She’ll undoubtedly be a leading candidate for Attorney General in the next Clinton administration (perhaps serving along with Clinton supporter and “foreign policy expert” Michael O’Hanlon).

Here’s an interesting take on this election from Robert Parry

Interesting. Are we going to get a president chosen by people that think being a woman is most important or are we going to have the fad of the day from the youth. Pity we will not have a president chosen because of his/her standing on the issues of importance.

The key here is the SCOTUS decided sometime ago that a corporation has the same first amendment rights to free speech as a person. Talk about judicial activism. This means they can do anything a person can in regards to spending for campaigns. That unspeakable decision is what is driving the horror show we are witnessing. The thing to change is the definition of what has these rights and strip the SCOTUS of the ability to do anything about it.
Likely hood of passing anything like this is zero. Its a direct shot at the incumbency racket.

…they’re passing a law, but if a president decides later on that he thinks there’s really some other controlling authority besides the law, that’s OK.

Vincent Ostrom, one of our foremost students of the principles of constitutional design used by the Founders, saw Nixon’s earlier attempts to create a unitary executive as being the direct result of a century worth of hacking away at the foundations of the Republic by people who thought they were fixing a flawed design produced by Founders who didn’t really know what they were doing when they wrote the Constitution.

He had this to say in 1978 about the implications of Nixon’s views of the Presidency:

During the Watergate investigations, the Nixon administration placed substantial reliance upon a doctrine of executive privilege. President Nixon himself articulated the position that sovereign prerogatives inherent in the Presidency, give the President authority to decide when to authorize actions contrary to law as well as when to enforce the law and when not to enforce the law. The Constitution itself in defining the prerogatives of the President, uses such general language as “he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed . . .” (Art. 11, Sec. 3).

Enforcement is an essential condition of effective law. As Thomas Hobbes recognized long ago “covenants without the sword are but words . . .” Acts of Congress without executive implementations are no more than pious platitudes. If executive authority rests exclusively in the President of the United States, then statutory provisions of law can be effectively overridden by Presidential instructions. Under such circumstances, Presidential instructions become effective law and the statutory enactments of Congress will be no more than statements of moral principle. In Hobbes’ terms, acts of Congress would be mere words. When legislation becomes positive morality not positive law, then Congress can be relegated to the performance of ceremonial functions in proclaiming moral platitudes about public life. The President will then decide: (1) what government should do and (2) how it goes about doing it.”

…[D]emocracy and constitutional rule [are dying]. These are the consequences of eliminating fragmentation of authority … The key question is: Will we dismiss that horror scene as the work of evil men, or will we see it as the logical consequence of several decades of governmental reorganization preoccupied with efforts to strengthen the Presidency? In the course of doing so, we have created a new monarchy.

[Ostrom, V. “The Third Century: Some Anticipated Consequences of Governmental Reorganization”, Publius, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Spring 1978), pp. 121-132.]

This administration and the previous and current Congress are far beyond Nixon’s wildest dreams.

Impeachment time.

i agree with what you laid out….thats long-term… in the meanwhile we’re getting our collective asses kicked….little by little rights are being eroded - hell i’m thinking of running………… jk

It is a mystery why Reid and Pelosi remain in leadership positions.

Bush has yet to send up some alternate nominees

Ouch! but OTOH true.

Hey all, just starting to read comments-for me it is hard, I am so disappointed but MadDog@28 I am with you..we cannot lay down.

I read this http://www.progressive.org, an article by Matthew Rothschild, February 7, 2008 that is very important and dovetails with FISA and It should be a must read, not because I say so, but because you need to know it. our country is heading towards lockdown. I cannot be witty this morning, when I read this vis a vis FISA It shook me to my core, and I am not a sky is falling kind of guy, I just connect the dots and today the color of those dots is very black.

Impeachment time.

Of bush, cheney et al, congress and the supreme court.

Good questions.
I read someone the other advocating for Lowering the voting age to 16.
I was dismayed. Kids have a lot of energy, but I agree with you that they tend to focus on fads. And really, how can youth really wrap their minds around the Bigger Picture, the Long Term affects of things.
(ducking here)
And, with all of the distracting shallow sound bites put forth by the MSM, it is harder and harder to focus on the agendas and important issues the candidates are making a platform of.

That’s why it has to be grassroots. Yes, we can also benefit from presidential appointments by an anticorporatist (or at least constitutionally sensible) president. But we need strong, constant grassroots support of CFR candidates, people whose constituency is vocal and who can resist corporate influence.

We need to be a population that will remove from office representatives who sell out to corporations. And we need to field candidates who understand that when they get elected.

See, the thing is, the representatives cannot do this themselves. If we want corporate influence out of Congress, it has to be a populist, grassroots movement. Otherwise corporations will keep buying our legislators.

A judicial branch and a judicial committee willing to impeach representatives for bribery would be an important extra component.

Junya and Deadeye may think that giving retroactive immunity to the Telcos (as is likely with our cowering Congress) provides an impenetrable shield against this Administration’s criminal behavior, but soon there will be another Administration!

Maybe some other criminal activity can be addressed in the future. But if retroactive immunity is given for violating FISA - it most certainly includes Bushco. Forever.

I am full-blown mad now. The vote against cloture was for all intents and purposes a vote FOR this bill. Everyone knows that the Republicans and Jello Jay will pass it without any additional help.

I believe the bill they are debating gives immunity to any person. This inclueds corporations, individuals, POTUS, and his minions…

I believe you are incorrect. It is my understanding that the retroactive immunity is only for the alleged communication providers and only for civil actions.

I believe that the bill explicitly does not constitute immunity or a pardon for Administration criminal violations.

hey mad dog- wake the hell up. If you think the Dems will be any better you are simply out of you mind. I wish you luck but you haven’t a clue.

ha

They buckle on this and then they are going to find the backbone to impeach, what a joke. Now tell me how I support the Bush administration by having negative thoughts.

hey mad dog- wake the hell up. If you think the Dems will be any better you are simply out of you mind. I wish you luck but you haven’t a clue

Thanks and you have a nice day too!

This is so disheartening, for someone who lived through Watergate and saw some justice occur. We need people who are not welded to a system of corruption - which is why I have been a volunteer for Jim Neal in NC(to replace Elizabeth Dole). He has a primary challenge in early May, and if he wins that, people in NC have a chance to really have a progressive, reality-based candidate. Please take a look at www.jimnealforsenate.com and look for his videos on YouTube. These senators who voted as cowards today do not deserve our support, when there are netroots-backed candidates who will truly serve the people. North Carolina is really ready for a change, but they need to know about candidates who are not backed by big PAC money.

Can someone tell me if Reid’s pulling the bill is even an option?

“The key here is the SCOTUS decided sometime ago that a corporation has the same first amendment rights to free speech as a person. Talk about judicial activism. This means they can do anything a person can in regards to spending for campaigns. That unspeakable decision is what is driving the horror show we are witnessing. The thing to change is the definition of what has these rights and strip the SCOTUS of the ability to do anything about it.”

SCOTUS has determined that some persons” are excluded from participating in the political process. For example foreign individuals and governments cannot be involved. The fact that corporations are now so globalized makes them prone to being tainted in this way. Their actions may be taken so as to benefit their foreign operations and investors or owners.

I think that the big thing would be to delimit election-related contributions to “citizens”. That is actually a concept restricted to physical biological H.sapiens entities…either born in, or born of other citizens, or naturalized. No one would hold that a corporation could vote, or run for office…and political contributions to campaigns, to candidates, and to these 451K “free speech” groups (like the Swiftboaters) should be restricted to actual citizens.

We really don’t speak to each other like that in here. Really.

Ironically, the reporter’s name is “Rust.” Hope that story has legs and gets picked up by more and more media.

really

Reasonable: chart it out with the poli sci professionals much like Rove has done. Make a solid game plan. Go for it.

”Hi Brendan - hope your part of world protects their freedoms better than our sorry nation is doing.”

My part of the world?
My friend, as much as it pains me to admit it, I too am an American, living in these Untied States of AA Crime.

My ex, who lives in Quebec, literally mocks the United States every time we speak.

if you didn’t know the democrats would buckle, get your head out of their ass. hell in a handbasket anyone?
http://www.arcor.de/ecards/ima.....leiter.swf

man, can i say that i am really bummed out. the dems just keep disappointing. i thought i would post an email that a lawyer-friend out in california sent to a group of us who were emailing about super tuesday. it relates to how he feels about the presidential race, but is equally applicable to the sitation in the congress. i think it shows how many liberals feel these days.

“I registered my protest by not voting in California’s primary. I wanted to send the message that I really don’t give a rat’s ass which one of the two is the presidential candidate–they’ll both bow down before the great Republican hissy fits that are going to be almost constant when one of them becomes president. They’ll both talk about how much they love Jesus and hate terrorists. They’ll both give lip service to universal health care before the insurance companies “persuade” them that our system really is the most kick-ass, bestest system that ever existed (USA! USA!). Their plans to repeal the tax-cuts to the wealthy will get watered down and will somehow end up giving the wealthy even more subsidies and tax breaks. Their various suggestions on how we can get out of Iraq will be screamed down with accusations of “surrender” and “cutting and running.”

While I am sure there are some relevant differences in their various positions, the reality is that the system is so fucked at this point that whoever wins the office is going to be largely impotent and nothing of any substance will be accomplished. All I really hope for is that whoever becomes the next president doesn’t fuck things up worse–although if that person does, I’ll have even more incentive to get the fuck out of this country.”

Dark days.

oops - my bad, Brendan - I thought you were commenting from Ireland. Crossed my wires - I apologize.

Wish we both had passports from a democracy.

The Dems caved? I’m shocked.

Perhaps we can make our points without the extraneous swipes at other candidates?

I am doing my very best to support my candidate and my causes in a tone and manner copasetic also spelled copasceticwith FDL and approved by it.

I also recognize there is a phenomenon here that has been recognized all over the web where when there is a new post by a headliner, people jump to that new post for whatever reason, resulting in a lot of off topic posts. I try hard to post within the context of the headline, but there doesn’t seem to be any hard and fast rule on that and I’m not sure that you can expect comments to be perfectly in context of a headline all the time.

It is difficult to recognize that Obama and mcCain were present today, and someone in the same primary contests was not and not want to believe that is a very valid point in favor of your candidate when he took the time out from campaigning to vote on the Senate floor. Many of us, who participate at different blogs on the web, requested for them all to be there, and the efforts paid off.

I am trying very hard to be even handed, but after all, if you look at the bell shaped curve of comments there are many many many many many comments that take swipes at the candidate they are not supporting. I don’t know if you’re seeing them, but there are all kinds of comments that take swipes at candidate x and it puzzles me why if I do it, it’s perjorative.

If you look at the threads at night there are tons of comments that support either Obama, Clinton, or McCain with names for them and points that are made–some better than others and with all bit of objectivity, I don’t think my points are out of line with what I’ve been seeing.

I thought, and I’ll review them again, my comments went straight to the point that Hillary Clinton did not show up for one of the most important votes in the history of the Senate.

It makes me wonder if you don’t want me to have an opinion on a candidate. Clinton wasn’t there. She was campaigning. She did not think it was more important to vote one of the most important Constitutional question that has come before the Senate in her sixty years of life. I don’t believe in reality she was shopping, and I said it tongue in cheek. If that offended you, please accept my appologies. But she absolutely knew what was being voted on, and where the vote took place today and after all, this is Chesapeake Tuesday. Washington DC is in the epicenter of the primaries today.

I certainly believe Clinton made an incorrect choice of not being there today to vote, and I really tracked each and every vote closely and while as Glenn Greenwald and Cboldt pointed out the votes were set up to fail very careuflly, some of these votes required 40 votes.

I guess you want me to make remarks not supportive of Clinton separated from her behavioral choice today. I do think her choice not to be there was very metaphorical as to how she regards her own gratification, and how she regards her position as a Senator representing the people of New York, and more globally the people in this country.

I am doing my best not to even approach disrespecting Senator Clinton as to her gender, but I certainly disagree with her choices and her contributions. Senator Obama is not even taking contributions in the same framework as Clinton. Obama is not taking money from lobbyists period in this campaign. Senator Clinton is taking a lot of money from corporate lobbyists. I can easily link the lists and I have.

Brain Bleach;
This is the Senate. The House is made up more of dems. Raven negative will get us nowhere very fast. I don’t know your agenda…mine is freedom under a constitutional democracy.

Is there any chance we can change Senate Majority leaders? God, Harry Reid is the worst I’ve seen.

A positive approach will give the best outcome. You know that so what are you trying to accomplish?

Can someone tell me if Reid’s pulling the bill is even an option?

If you mean S. 2248 it cannot be pulled from the floor at this point, and many votes are now history.

If you want to have a good grip on the rest of the way this plays out, there will be great discussions on Cboldt’s senate blog, and EW later today and the next couple days. I’ve linked Cboldt’s blog and another that tracks these events very closely on this thread.

I can’t wait until the nominations are over.

Parsing makes me wanna puke.

On that note - off to read-up on new cryptography tools.

Maddog you make scense that bothers some negative commentors. We welcome your positive ideas. I am confident that others are working on ways to solve the rot in our government. Putting justice under the church is retrograde to the Inquisition complete with fear, torture and treachery.

If that what you want I suggest moving to either France, Great Britain or any of many constitutional democracies of Europe. America will need another revolution to restore constitutional democracy. Revolutions are initiated by citizens. Americans have become a nation of consumers. Consumers don’t care about democracy as long as the shelves are stocked.

I thought about this more, and realize what must have caught your eye. I made a comment that Senator Clinton was still under the illusion she was a candidate. It was snarky, over the line and I apologize. She is definitely a candidate, but she is also trying to capture the race I believe via Super Delegates. Senator Obama is well aware of them, and her organization on SD’s and in the big three states to come, so it will be a very tight contest.

The key here is the SCOTUS decided sometime ago that a corporation has the same first amendment rights to free speech as a person. Talk about judicial activism. This means they can do anything a person can in regards to spending for campaigns.

So why don’t they have the same limits on individual political contributions?

So why don’t they have the same limits on individual political contributions?

For that answer you will have to rely on Mukasey Logic. The answer is because they are…. corporations.

Overall - I’m still disappointed with McCaskill. She did vote for most of the Feingold amendments, but blew it on immunity. She voted for the Specter/Whitehouse and Feinstein immunity amendments (3927 and 3919) and voted against the only true anti-immunity amendment (Dodd/Feingold - 3907).

She’s proven to me that she is more beholden to the telecoms than she is to the people who elected her. I also worked on her campaign (and won’t next time). She campaigned on bringing accountability to Washington and proved it a lie today by voting to let the telecoms and (by extension) the Administration avoid accountability.

Happy to see you lighten up a bit, this blog it seems to me is not Obama’s web site. You have hammered the points in favor of your fav often. I believe the FDL site has not opted to support either as of yet. You are not the only often commenting Obama supporter. The campaign is in the states still..then it goes to the convention. Their is a lot of congress critters tha need support to stay in and new ones too.
In the interest of a democratic White house and Congress that is better served if the attack are directed at McCain and the present republican administration. Thr repthugs will serve up plenty of negative on the dems.
Having said that I have criticized Dem leadership a plenty.
Yes the dems cave…as expected…that does not mean we fold up our tent and become immigrants. In my life I have developed a fondness for my country more so as a land than as a political body. It is still worth fighting for and their are many non violent ways to oppose tyranny.

CHIT i had to take a business call and missed feingold and boxer
that always happens! my hero’s get up to speak, and i gottas go@!

dang!

Here’s what we can do. Contact and call out each Senator individually. Everybody can focus on just one or two. Make ‘em defend what they did.

Too late. I don’t want to hear a defense to the indefensible. I just want them to lose their next election, regardless of who their opponent might be.

thanks.