Login HereExclusivity fails. Kagro:
In rejecting the Feinstein "exclusivity" amendment to the FISA revision considered on the Senate floor today -- an amendment that failed by a vote of 57 Ayes to 41 Noes, thanks to another "painless filibuster" of precisely the type we were promised would not be tolerated on this bill -- the Senate has voted to say that although they were passing a law governing surveillance, it was OK if the President decided that he really didn't like the law very much and wished to make up his own instead.
Exclusivity -- the purpose of the amendment that "failed" -- meant simply this: that the law they were passing was the law, and it was the governing authority for how surveillance could be conducted in America.
The Senate just rejected it, so that means that they're passing a law, but if a president decides later on that he thinks there's really some other controlling authority besides the law, that's OK.
Specter/Whitehouse substitution bill fails, 30-68.
Per DailyKos, Harry Reid evidently sent this to the caucus this morning:
If, as appears likely, none of the amendments to strike or modify the provisions of the bill concerning retroactive immunity are adopted, we expect Sen. Reid to oppose cloture and oppose final passage of the bill.
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The time to hear from whistleblowers is now.
But we knew this was coming, didn’t we? It’s been kabuki for the past month.
342 days and counting Bush, better get yer ass covered between now and then eh?
Not to worry, the Dem leadership has your back, buddy, pal, rubber of bald heads.
” Our progress in degeracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. “
A. Lincoln
Per DailyKos, Harry Reid evidently sent this to the caucus this morning:…
Well, I’m not a member of “the caucus”, but if it were so, my response would be - “Aw - blow me, Harry…”
this has been nothing but kabuki.
I think any sentiments i would express about this fiasco would get me banned from firedoglake.
fight the power.
Does that mean Reid could successfully stop the bill…or should I say “would”…?
On Kagro’s point: Bush (and especially Cheney) have implicitly asserted that FISA per se is unconstitutional, and that there’s no controlling authority to the commander-in-chief’s authority to perform wartime surveillance, where ‘wartime’ means ‘all the time’.
So the OLC will be busy drafting the law of the land, as it applies to the executive branch. As it has since 2001. Except that the Senate is now giving it ass-coverage.
Jane and all Firedogs,
Forgive my late arrival, Where’s Christy?
This wasn’t what I wanted to wake up to. :(
(watching cspan2)
i had to change the channel…. its maddening…. exactly what are the dems doing? or should i say - who are they pleasing cuz it sure as hell aint citizens… talking about voting against their own best interests….. damn!!
Reid is a lubrication specialist, ‘The Greaseman”.
It wouldn’t have come this far without his special attention.
Would this do any good (ie block the bill) or is it just (sigh!) more kabuki?
Dem leadership pep talk to the rest: “Stop ya worryin’! The ignorance or short-term memory of our constituents will probably keep most of us deadwood in till our terms expire, as long as we continue to register a pulse. Now let’s get out there and vote (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)!”
I wonder when Congress is going to wake up and realize they don’t matter anymore?
Ruck Fied.
-G
Watch the proceedings for too long and get so sick you can’t spell, hence
degeneracy… ht scott horton.
Bush should just go ahead and pull a Cromwell and march a pack of troops into Congress and tell them to go home.
-G
But we knew this was coming, didn’t we?
When it’s set up so that 60 votes are required to amend anything that came outta Jello Jay and Kit Bombed’s Committee - yeah, there was never really any way any amendment was gonna pass.
Thanks to all who joined the effort.
Jane. You and Christy are just awesome.
I’ll try one more time, then leave you guys alone to plot and mope s’more, as more is definitely called for.
Pretty PLEASE?? Does anyone know if OH Sen. Sherrod Brown is there, and how he voted?
I have just E mailed the DNC that I will no longer support in any way the Democratic Party! I asked to be removed from any funding requests and to strike my E mail address and to no longer send me any information or any requests as of today. I will attempt to locate a party or group that offers me the positions that I can support.And, that pary or group is the one that will get my vote.
18 “Democratic Senators” voted against the Dodd amendment and by doing that they have shown just jhow corrupt this party is. RI is the final straw. May they all rot in hell!
She mentioned in an earlier thread that a sick Peanut and sick Mr. ReddHedd were at home today, both requiring her attention.
Who is someone for whom the progressive community could request “retroactive immunity?”
he probably would if he could find the door…
Lots of votes this morning, so I’m not sure which one(s) you mean. Still, you can check out the official record of Senate votes here, usually within an hour or so of when they happen.
Thanks PeterR. Not a fun day for her anywhere, a’tall.
lots of happy, smiling faces on the floor at the moment.
Just another day, eh Senators?
He’s just laughing his butt off. He seized control years ago, and they’ve handed him the keys. Mindboggling.
Congress: The dog that never barked.
I would add one important caveat to Glenn Greenwald’s statement of:
For the rest of this Administration is not forever.
Junya and Deadeye may think that giving retroactive immunity to the Telcos (as is likely with our cowering Congress) provides an impenetrable shield against this Administration’s criminal behavior, but soon there will be another Administration!
The next Administration will be a Democratic Administration, and will have the powers to declassify anything Junya and Deadeye have classified.
Junya and Deadeye’s attempt to shield themselves from FISA criminal violations by invoking State Secrets at the Judicial level and by intimidating Congress to pass Telco retroactive immunity ain’t gonna be sufficient to cover their asses.
Junya may even grant blanket FISA violation pardons to his underlings on the way out of office, but he can’t grant one to himself.
Folks who think the war is lost when Congress finally caves on Telco retroactive immunity mistakenly conflate it as losing the war instead of the truth, losing a battle.
I’m not suggesting that losing the battle is my preferred choice, but instead pointing out that the war will continue.
We ain’t surrendering anytime soon! Our cause is just. We will prevail!
Oh, that Harry Reid and his dry powder. Such a clever Majority Leader Senate Democrats have chosen for themselves!
I’m not sure that’s really necessary since they don’t seem too interested in challenging his authority.
Might I suggest that strong encryption is now your friend? It’s not much compared to the magic boxes that slurp the internets, but it’s something.
I want my Constitution back.
Or do we just need a new one?
Peterr. Thank you much. I knew it’d be
complicateda mess.He stood strong with Dodd before, so I was hoping. I appreciate the link. I’ll go check.
God, I hope you are right.
Har to have an Open Source Revolution if everything is encrypted ;)
Ms. Landrieu - once again in, casts the wrong vote, is ignored by every other Senator, and slinks out the back…
I want to emphasize this so everyone grasps it:
The two contenders in the general election were on the floor voting today. Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain McBush were there voting.
Senator Hillary Clinton who has become so giddy trying to woo John Edwards and phone Super Delegates to steal the election was not present.
I find it interesting that Obama is voting today and Clinton is not. (His votes have been in favor of Feingold and Dodd amendments BTW)
let’s give some thought to an educational campaign and national day of privacy when we all begin to use those tools.
Here’s what we can do. Contact and call out each Senator individually. Everybody can focus on just one or two. Make ‘em defend what they did. Especially important to make ‘em defend it publicly if possible.
I’m not sure, but is worth discussing. I think the Constitution we have would work if the powers that were to employ it, did so.
The question that needs to be asked of all of the presidential nominees — Are you going to give BushCo a pass on the criminal wrongdoings of their administration? If not, when can we expect the declassification to begin?
Retroactive Immunity for the telecoms, is imo, blatantly unconstitutional as a denial of due process.
Of course, it would take, say, a United States Supreme Court to make that final determination…
fuck it - never mind….
The two contenders in the general election were on the floor voting today. Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain McBush were there voting.
With all the support he has, Obama could have made this a significant issue in his campaign.
He didn’t. Showing up to vote isn’t good enough.
Cloture vote now. Will we even get 30 no’s?
You could try CAPS also but, seriously, I think most people here are reading pretty much everything and commenting if and as they choose.
Just a wild guess from this corner, per usual….
I find it interesting that Obama is voting today and Clinton is not. (His votes have been in favor of Feingold and Dodd amendments BTW).
I find it perfectly appropriate and not suprising given that Clinton’s contribution list reads like a Who’s Who of Telcos, Comcos (ISP’s) and their huge lobbying law firms.
Clinton is a puppet of the Corporate Giants. I have good information that she 1) Had Transportation 2) Had Freedom of Movement and needed no one’s permission to perform as a Senator today 3) She knew the coordinates of the Senate and Capitol Hill and could have been there but I have seen her live trying to campaign for some election in which she still perceives herself viable.
If James Madison were alive I can imagine him vomiting into a toilet about now.
Said in my best Maxwell Smart voice:
Would a troop of boyscouts with slingshots suffice?
-G
Ypu are assuming that Junya and Deadeye will not destroy everything before they leave. The emails show a precedent. They will leave no trail whatsoever.
Oi. Could you imagine the circus behind a new constitution? It feels like a catch-22. The one we have now is pretty useless since it isn’t being followed, and a new one could be even worse. Rights decimated. Guns for everyone. No more courts (cause they are all “judicial activists.”)
Perhaps we can make our points without the extraneous swipes at other candidates?
If, they leave.
Were Obama and Clinton there? Did they vote the right way?
could you elaborate further on this?
do you mean that we need open source to confirm there is no “back door” access? or something else?
i am seriously interested in the possibility of pursuing these ideas, but i have to leave the computer for a bit. will check back later, tw3k if you have any more to say on this…
best to all who watch and mourn today.
(p.s. even though i won’t be around, i have c-span2 recording. if anything exciting should happen, please let me know and i will post a clip if no one else has already done so).
later friends.
Chimpy will kick over the chess table because he’s losing.
Uncle Dick will whisper: Atta boy.
-G
I gotta say, after Edwards left the race I didn’t know who I was going to support. Obama’s being there today is really swinging me towards him (and I was swinging towards Clinton earlier this week).
Good morning! Glad to see the sun is shining because it is dismil in the senate.
The same cast of characters can do nothing but behave in the same way. Reid is not a leader. His whole background taught him to obey authority first and foremost. He is conditioned by hierarchy and subjugates himself to that heirarchy. He is obedient. Expect nothing more.
Dodd stood and spoke truth to power last night, alone. He is the complete opposite of Harry Reid. We need to press for better leadership. Dodd leading the senate would provide guidance to Pelosi. She desperately needs wise guidance.
We are spinning wheels under Reid’s obediance. How do we press for new leadership?
I don’t trust Busharraf one iota.
Mmmmmm. Revolution.
Official Votes on S. Amendt. 3912(Feingold) and S. Amdt. 3907 (Dodd)
Thanks to The Daily Kos–I am pasting this from Kos because I want to make sure my list is accurate:
The Senate voted on the Dodd/Feingold amendment, which would have stripped retroactive immunity from the surveillance bill just now. The final tally was 31-67; crossing over to vote nay were Sens. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Evan Bayh (D-IA), Daniel Inouye (D-HI), Tim Johnson (D-SD), Herb Kohl (D-WI), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Mark Pryor (D-AR), Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Ken Salazar (D-CO), Tom Carper (D-DE), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Jim Webb (D-VA), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Kent Conrad (D-ND), and Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Update: Here’s the official tally.
Presidential candidates Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Barack Obama (D-IL) were present for the vote – voting nay and yea, respectively.
Be careful what you (wish for/propose/mention/imagine) (circle one)
haven’t been over to EW’s place yet today, but I wonder if she’s caught that Arlen is wearing that same, some-kind-of-excretory-something colored suit that he was wearing the other day?
Note to the Senator from PA - hey, just because the grandkids bought you something awful for Christmas doesn’t mean that you really have to wear it in public…
lol!!
Yes!
Phil Zimmerman - who wrote the PGP protocols for email encryption that so threatened the NSA they (abortively) sought to prosecute him - has written zfone, a very robust encryption protocol for encryption of internet-based phone calls.
Barack Obama was there of course and of course he voted “the right way.” He was a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago and he was President of the Harvard Law Review.
Senator Clinton was of course not there. She still is under the illusion she is in a race.
WV hangs it’s head in shame. Jay Rockefeller - what a disgrace.
Order of Vote on Amendments Today
This perspective that Cboldt posted last night on EW might be helpful in following events today:
From Cboldt last night:
I asked:
Who do you think are going to be on the House-Conference commitee and is there any slim chance that the House’s immunity is going to survive?
On the harm Harry Reid did by bringing the SSIC version with Immunity to the floor instead of the SJC version without Immunity to the floor:
I asked:
If Reid had brought the SJC version of S. 2248 to the floor, given the vote requirements (60) for so many of these amendments or as Glenn Greenwald put it, they made sure that no amendments could possibly pass, do you think that would have made any significant difference in the final outcome of this?
Whitehouse - aye
wtf?
Well said!
This whole FISA and PAA mess has been going on since last summer, and both campaigns have chosen to show up or stay on the campaign trail at various times. Neither Clinton nor Obama have a terribly good record in showing up and speaking out to support Dodd and Feingold.
More importantly for the case of retroactive immunity and such, Obama showing up today and Clinton staying away suggests to me that folks in the Democratic caucus were pretty sure where things were going to end up after all of today’s votes were done — with losses all the way down the line. I find that calculus terribly disappointing.
One can argue about which campaign has made a better choice today — but I guarantee you that that if things were going to be close, both candidates would likely have been in DC for the votes. Obama and Clinton have both played that game before, and likely will again.
”The next Administration will be a Democratic Administration, and will have the powers to declassify anything Junya and Deadeye have classified.”
HAHAHAHAHA.
yeah. And then monkeys will fly out of my ass!
Webb - aye
Feinstein - aye
Specter- aye
Casey- aye
FWIW, zfone is open source.
In contrast, skype’s encryption protocol is not open source. Per Wired, this has raised questions about whether skype’s encryption protocol is secure (and some have already claimed to have hacked it).
Encryption and open-source software are not mutually exclusive.
On the contrary, the latter appears to be a prerequsite to ensure the success of the former.
Mary Landrieu inherited bad genes. Her entire family is corrupt and not too bright. If she tried, she couldn’t do otherwise. Frankly, I’d rather see a Republican in her place because we would never have false hope.
Have you noticed that when she speaks she says gobbledygook? That’s the most her limited brain power can muster. The rest of her relatives are the same. I know Louisiana has many brighter people than this family. The Democratic Party has to stop shutting them out.
What are they voting on?
must. learn. to. ignore.
Gotta go for awhile, dear pups. Back when I can get my steam valve readjusted properly…
pipingpetey. wouldn’t just a link suffice? *sigh*
I think you’ve made your opinion perfectly clear on that point . Let’s not continue this vein, please.
if I’m not mistaken, this is the big one. Complete with retroactive immunity….
I’ll predict 31 noes on cloture, about the same on passage the SSCI bill goes to the House just as Bush wanted it, tied with a little bow. And the Senate will pack up to their offices and start calling us for money.
It’s still nice to see Obama take the time to be there - since we asked them both to take a break from campaigning to vote with us on this, I appreciate it.
But not as much as I appreciate all that Dodd has done - I sent him a small contribution last night to thank him and it would be cool if folks did the same.
Once again the American people will happily be taken advantage of by their own elected government. When will we understand that the mainstream media takes a large part in manipulating our political process and do something about it?
RantingRaver.com
Mr. Bayh - aye -
buh-bye Bayh…
This is the cloture vote. The vote on the bil is later after Dodd gets his four hours.
Dibs on the video rights!
Hi Brendan - hope your part of world protects their freedoms better than our sorry nation is doing.
(and do you happen to know anyone who wants to marry a
slightlysomewhatknocked-about shrink?Afraid I fail the grand parent form Ireland test by about two generations….but an EU passport sure looks appealiing.
As does the prospect of residency in a democracy.
I feel much better about Obama today because he is showing up and voting. He is showing the understanding of why people elected him.
McCaskill is voting the right way on everything except Dodd-Feingold which ImaPT told us she would not vote for! I am not mad at her yet.
Christy, as a resident who knows his track record well has posted positive accomplishments by Rockerfeller for her state, but I have come to loose all respect for Jay Rockerfeller after his conduct here on FISA.
As Bmaz said last night over at EW so correctly:
Isn’t there still a house conference to get through on this whole mess? Why would the house back down?
29. The under wins, and the Senate heads off for lunch. Presumably, their friends at the telcos are paying.
Hey Kirk - just yesterday I sent in the paperwork to renew my Irish passport. Just in case!!
You got it, baby. VERY well said.
Don’t forget Feingold. He and Dodd might be the only politicians we still have fighting for us.
It’s too bad that campaign contributions are a thank-you to our senators — a real problem with politics as they now stand. I cannot comprehend how we expect a system that encourages what are essentially bribes (what else can a campaign contribution be called?) to be a reward for taking a particular political position. Is it any wonder that the special interest has completely taken over Washington? We need REAL campaign finance reform.
RantingRaver.com
right - I mean I knew it was the cloture vote, but with such a weak showing, the final vote looks doomed as well.
Dodd gets (only) four hours? didn’t know that. Any other procedural possibilities of which you’re aware?
I am glad I read that. I was about to call up McCaskill’s office and go balistic.
I mean Open Source Revolution in a Gandhi sense. Where all strategy and action is openly discussed without a need for a cypher. After all, people need open access to become involved. Something like Open Insurgency.
ITOH: throw wrenches, encrypt early, encrypt often!
May the road rise up to meet your feet, Helen.
This list by Cboldt in addition to the links I posted may help understand the floor today:
Order of Votes Matt Hamlin and Context of Amendments Cboldt
Calendar of Business Senate February 12, 2008
Order of votes
Whitehouse 3920 (needs 60 to pass)
Feinstein 3910 (needs 60 to pass)
Feingold/Webb 3979
Feingold 3907
Feingold 3912
Bond 3938
Specter/Whitehouse 3927
Feinstein 3919 (needs 60 to pass) [The above 8 votes will take all morning]
Manager’s amendment (not contentious - voice vote or UC passage)
Cloture motion to limit debate on final passage [Will start after policy luncheons]
About 5 hours of post-cloture debate
Vote on final passage [Most likely after 7:30 p.m.]
Yea, but when we get a Democratic Party President all this kind of bullshit will magically go aways. . .in a pigs eye.
Sorry, massively OFF-TOPIC.
Kirk, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel picked up your post about the this:
“Area’s toxins may be sickening people” “Group exposes hidden U.S. report”
Nice work, imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Well, if it was only 29 I doubt she voted for cloture. On the Feinstein immunity amendment I am going by TPMMuckraker which didn’t name her.
btw selise posted Dodd’s oration from last night.
I have lived in WV since Jay was governor. I note that he has done much for the state, but his first duty is to defend the Constitution and he clearly has failed to do so repeatedly. Needless to say, I have very little respect left for him.
tw3k - I love that. Sorry I failed to understand the first time around.
And ebw of Wampum will have to move to Switzerland. That was the most powerful emotional appeal of this whole mess.
What we have to do is figure out a way to make the US citizen matter again. “For the People, By the People” is no longer in effect. I don’t know how to do that but it is very obvious that we are not that important to our leaders. General Strike? I don’t know. But we are pretty much invisible right now. Things can’t get much worse.
We email, write letters, fax, protest….and it’s all for naught. Remember Haig’s comment “Let them protest all they want as long as they continue to pay their taxes”. That’s all we are. A cash-cow.
Step one is to change that perspective.
Wyden, Feingold, Kennedy also deserve our thanks because they worked very hard to support Chris Dodd–all of them spent a lot of time to get the correct result as to FISA, and all of them made some outstanding speeches over the course of this battle.
Feingold and Dodd made historic speeches in defense of the Constitution.
np :) was good to hear about zfone too!
Wow Boo - thanks - but I don’t deserve the kudos. Center for Public Integrity broke the story; Truthout picked it up (which is where I saw it).
I’m just really glad the news is spreading - happy to see those links.
Again, thanks.
I’d say go for it anyway.
She’s a former prosecutor, for crying out loud. Since when have prosecutors been big on the defense “someone else told me to do it”?
Prosecutors give immunity in order to get testimony to go after other lawbreakers further up the criminal food chain. They don’t give it away to say “Oh, it’s OK then — never mind.”
4jkb4ia, you may not be angry with McCaskill, but I am.