John McCain is claiming personal ownership of the surge, boasting of his advocacy as the central element of his national security credentials. But the wisdom of this strategy depends on the media and the voters having an improbably narrow view of the surge’s consequences.
Doubts about the wisdom of McCain’s political calculation do not require the standard argument that the surge failed to achieve its political objectives, nor the fact there are several plausible, alternative reasons for whatever reported reductions in violence may have occurred. One can even discount as temporary the dreadful news that violence appears to have increased in recent weeks, with dozens more killed yesterday, and hope that killings of civilians will decline rather than increase.
The strategic choice whether to increase troops or begin withdrawing them always required the Administration to consider what would happen not only in Iraq but everywhere else. And it’s clear that since the President’s — now McCain’s — policy choice to surge more troops into Iraq, conditions everywhere else have substantially worsened, with increasingly alarming consequences for US security interests.
Recently the negative consequences of the surge decision have been in full view. The Bush Administration sent Secretary Rice, Secretary Gates and senior military officials to Europe, Afghanistan and Pakistan trying to repair the damage caused by the Administration’s neglect of Afghanistan, its neglect of Pakistani democracy and its over reliance on a despised military dictator to cover Afghanistan’s southern flank. At the same time, National Security Director McConnell was warning Congress, in effect, that the Afghanistan/Pakistan region has now become the major threat to American security.
Who can doubt these entirely predictable consequences are linked to the preoccupation with Iraq? And whom should we hold responsible for tying up our strategic reserves to that preoccupation? Admiral Mullen and General Casey have been warning the Administration for months that the size of our occupation was unsustainable, weakening the US military and eliminating the nation’s strategic flexibility to deal with any other contingency.
If McCain wants to take ownership of the surge, he should also be held responsible for all the consequences of the broader strategic choice the surge represented. Whatever the surge may accomplish in Iraq — and it still looks like a highly risky gamble to have armed over 60,000 disaffected Sunni militants — it’s clear the surge has come at the expense of deteriorating conditions in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
In pleading the case for more NATO troops in Afghanistan, the Administration is now undermining NATO, our most important security alliance. Gates publically insulted our NATO allies, essentially calling some of them cowards for avoiding combat in Southern Afghanistan. Last week, the Administration divided its time between lecturing our allies on their security and importuning them to save us from the fact we don’t have enough troops left to send ourselves.
The Iraq surge’s costs in Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere will continue to play out through the election. But the media, focused more on Petraeus’ Iraq statistics, rarely describes the surge decision as a strategic choice between very different policy alternatives with important consequences outside Iraq.
The American people, however, are proving to be smarter than the media. Despite the claims of success, large majorities still want us out. They understand there is a cost to America’s security from Bush/McCain’s open ended commitment to Iraq, and now they’re making the connection between the massive costs of our occupation and the neglect of America’s economic security. The latter topic would be the one McCain concedes he doesn’t fully understand. No kidding.
So let John McCain take all the credit he wants for the surge. It looks like the voters will hold him responsible for the consequence — all of them.
Update: CNN reported this morning that Secretary Gates will recommend that the withdrawal of US forces from Iraq should "pause" as soon as the additional surge troops are withdrawn in June. Apparently, the surge has been so successful that the remaining 140,000 or so troops can now remain indefinitely.
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Seems like the media is slowly mustering enough of a brain cell to start reporting on Iraq a bit more and discuss what is going on (or something in the surge frame).
zed…I think the voters will appreciate that we are now winning…Americans hate to lose a war…
After the election’s over and Obama or Clinton is safely ensconced in the Oval Office, I’m looking to McCain having to sell stuff on e-bay. Particularly his T-Shirt from his shopping trip in Baghdad from last year, in arabic, but here’s the rough english translation:
“I, very stupid American asswipe liar, bought a rug at a market in Baghdad, trying to fool the American people with the smile of an idiot on my face, and with ten armored humvees, dozens of soldiers with rifles, and two Apache attack helicopters.”
McCain was told and thinks it says, “The surge is succeeding and I’m proving it!”
The surge then pause?
Just love all the pics of Chimpy and JohnBoy in “embraceable you” mode. Every one of them.
Works for me.
I’m not sure how the “surge” could ever even BE a success.
Maybe with a couple hundred thousand more troops and occupying Iraq forever we may pacify it to some extent.
But considering the cost of blood and money, that would ironically be a failure in the sense that it would be disastrous for the U.S.
McCain can have the surge. He can have Bush’s endorsement. And we’ll take the White House.
Boxturtle (That seems fair)
John McCain wants to spend America’s future in Iraq.
Keep hammering him with it.
Duhhhh! What’s your payoff to write such crap? We’re winning? You’ve got to be kidding.
Morning S’crow, pups -
Chris Matthews and Pat Buchanan are bloviating fools.
Thanks General Patton
Good post Scarecrow!
Good Morning Scarecrow!
as Lou Costello would say, caw-CAW!
The question is. What are we winning?
LOL
Taylor Marsh is really losing. She did a love fest for Mark Penn.
Supporting Hill is one thing, but this is crazy!
Oops, meant to reply to RevDeb at #5. The Republicans are an affectionate bunch.
Good morning everyone, including Libertytree.
Just out of curiousity, LT, since we’re “now winning,” in your view, was there a period when you felt we were “losing”? Just curious. And how would you characterize what’s happening in Afghanistan now? Is that “winning” or “losing”?
Actually, The hope of the terror- I mean the neo-cons, is that they’ll be “winning” over the hearts and minds of those stupid or ignorant enough to buy their bullshit about “winning” what’s really somebody else’s multi-faction anarchy.
And mornin’ Scarecrow — nice post.
S’crow -
This reminds me of a bad old joke.
Two guys (of whatever nationality or race you desire) are walking down a road when they see a frog.
One guy says to the other guy, “I’ll give you $50 if you eat that frog”. So the second guy picks up the frog and eats it. The first guy gives him $50.
They keep walking and see another frog.
This time, the second guy says to the frst guy, “I’ll give you $50 if you eat that frog. So the first guy picks up the frog and eats it. The second guy gives the first guy $50.
They walk a little further when the first guys says to the second guy, “Why did we eat the frogs?”
Chilly morning, eh? A bit of body heat helps I guess.
that’s why Bush doesn’t want us to pull out of Irak. except we’ve already asked the question.
kitteh heat, too
Sounds like Vietnam to me. Bomb the shit out of the people, kill anyone that does not agree with you and de dah we win the hearts and minds of the remaining few people. Didn’t work for Napoleon, didn’t work for Canute, didn’t work for Nixon et al but sure as shit is crap it will work for bushy. Not going to happen.
Signs of victory:
*The end of Moqtada Al Sadr’s cease fire on 2/23.
*Weekly Turkish bombing raids in northern Iraq because the US administered nation of Iraq is a safe haven for Kurdish terrorist attacks into Turkey.
*Increased targeting of women in Iraq by religious extremists.
*The destruction of the Iraqi Christian community that lived in religious harmony up until the Bush Clusterfuck.
*The fact that Al Qaeda is reportedly training children and using handicapped patients from institutions for bombing attacks.
*The coming visit of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahamadinejad.
*The fact that the Joint Chiefs say that Iraq is weakening the US military?
*The fact that Saddam was able to keep Iraq under control, but the self proclaimed most powerful nation in the world has been unable to do that?
-G
What are we winning??? After all these years I still can’t figure it out.
Yep — although the hearts and minds I was speaking of are those of the Republican constituency, all ready to lap up whatever is vomited out by their leaders.
Gotta split — later, y’all…
Well done as always, Scarecrow.
One small typo: stratetic reserves should be strategic reserves.
but the media is of course corporate owned and they have a corporate agenda
they let these repukes claim the
escalation and occupation“surge is some kind of a success even though it’s failed every metricthe democrats are afraid to counter the claim for fear of looking like a defeatist
they can overcome this fear if they respond with an incredulous laugh in the face of whoever wants to make believe this “surge” is some kind of success
they will laugh, say “you have to be some kind of tool to actually repeat that garbage”
then they can go off on the actual facts, laugh again at the person that claims this “success” and shut his face, never to repeat the ridiculous claim again
LL, there is also a trend towards increased US troop and Iraqi deaths too.
Time for Petraeus to abandon statistics and start talking about how people feel.
-G
With “victory” looking like that, I’d hate to see what defeat looks like.
It seems that Chimpy’s handlers have been giving him the wrong history books to read from the start.
Hard to have anything more to say.
Any news coming out of that 13% in WA state?
Yep. Trace of snow last couple of days; blustery nights. Sunny today.
The descriptions of Rice and Gates charming their way abroad makes me very uneasy. and very angry. This is our fault.
If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, we may very well have helped Afghanistan get out from under the foot of the Taliban. Providing freedom for the women and children, and men, to live better lives.
better in every way.
And maybe that goodwill would have spread across the region, instead of the bloodshed and hatred we have stoked.
I understand that 87% is close enough for the goop. Math is not their strong point now that roveputin has left the stage.
this is a great point and something nobody wants to ask;
‘what does success look like?”
it looks like nothing, that’s what
every metric before the war is achieved, the armed forces completed their mission, they deposed saddam, they proved there were no wmds, they intalled the government the Iraqi’s wanted
they are NOT embassadors, they are NOT the private police force of the Iraqi’s
THEY ARE NOT PAINTERS OF SCHOOLS
they are NOT builders of embassies or the private body guards of contractors
THEY HAVE COMPLETED THEIR MISSION AND THEY NEED TO BE BROUGHT HOME, REWARDED FOR THEIR SERVICE
they need to be returned to where they belong, protecting this country, raising their family, running their bussiness and providing for their kids
there IS no success in Iraq for our armed forces that they haven’t allready achieved
bring our boys, our girls, our children…bring them home
Thanks, but I can’t find that. Which paragraph?
Violence is down. All sides are now working with us. Even Al Qaeda is admitting they have problems. We are winning this war and securing our flank in the Middle East.
Our policy was not having the success we hoped it would have in the immediate post-Saddam days. It took a reorientation of the policy to include direct contact with tribal leaders at the local levels and an increase in troops so the enemy had fewer places to hide to start the victory passage. Afghanistan is a great victory, but it’s a mountainous country with lots of ability for the Taliban to slip through the mountains. It is getting further attention.
Okay. It’s fixed. Thanks.
Perhaps the renewed enthusiasm for executions at gitmo will provide the media an opportunity to discuss 9-11 and how tough, yet wise, McCain is from now ’til Nov.
Fits w/shrub’s recent indications of regret as to *how* Saddam’s execution was conducted. In close consultation with McCain, he’s planning a new humane model of execution?
From Juan Cole:
70 Killed or found Dead on Sunday;
Big Bombing Near Balad:
Baquba Clashes
Sure sounds like success. Not.
I am going to have to do a serious search to find the quote by Bill Kristol, but it was to the effect that the US military is marvelous because they have become medics, and animal doctors and civil servants and teachers and counselors and pretty much everything you’d associate with charitable groups or the Peace Corps….
I was pretty stunned when I read it.
I can only imagine a close Sen. Clinton adviser waxing wonderful about how great it is to see the US military as candy stripers and social workers.
-G
We are winning forward positions between Iran and Syria in the Middle East. Together with Afghanistan we shall encircle Iran and make it impossible for the mullahs to attack Israel and ultimately defeat the Axis of Evil so that Islamo-Fascism does not threaten us…
People’s “feelings” don’t win wars. It’s the correlation of power on the ground.
for the life of me I can’t understand how religious anybody can reconcile supporting this man, who has not only endorsed torture, insists on the practice, even though he is informed in no uncertain terms torture gives us less information and people die because we loose the information that could have saved lives
it is just bizarre that people who consider themselves religious or righteous can support this despot
Sorry, should have given context. Thought you might be able to just search for the typo.
Success is keeping Bush a “War Time President”
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer’s front page article on WA Repub caucus results/screw up:
Huckabee Protests WA Caucus Results
And David Horsey, resident P-I op-ed cartoonist, has fun today w/WA voters in general:
2 Westerners Peer Over the Cascade Curtain
there you go, this is something the democrats can repeat with disgust to whoever thinks our armed forces should remain in Iraq
wrt to the Gitmo trials, even CNN’s Barbara Starr got the sequence:
The US first concedes the US did use waterboarding.
Then they say it happened when it was “legal,” because Yoo’s memos said it was.
So the confessions obtained are not inadmissible in a trial, as they normally would be.
Therefore, there’s no problem bringing the 9/11 guys to trial and asking for death penalty.
No US court prior to Roberts/Alito would have bought this bootstrapping argument. But Roberts/Alito probably will.
Starr and John Roberts discussed how convenient it was that the Administration prepped us on this logic.
I’m glad coffee was not in hand.
BushCO lies about why we are in Iraq and therefore everything they say is upside down. They will say we win when there is a working democracy, but they are not interested in that. Rather the opposite chaos so that they can leverage their national security meme and soak the tax payers and keep them skeered.
If we left things would stew and perhaps they would work out their own issues with help / interference from their neighbors. Hey it’s none of our business what those people decide. It’s not our country to decide.
They want us out of there as far as I can tell from polls conducted and out we should go. Any assistance we offer ANY COUNTRY should humanitarian aid… and even that should come through the UN without strings attached.
Can we please focus on OUR people and their needs and stop stealing their money for militarist fantasies??? Please.
Found this on TPM:
Religious people who think that some people are better than others.. their co religionists… and therefore the others are “lesser people”. Calling yourself “god’s chosen people” kinda sums up the superiority which leads to the dismissal of the human rights of others.
All the fundies think they are THE people and the others a sinners, slacker, heathens lesser people and can be “disposed of”. God don’t like them people.
OT
NATO impending disaster in Afghanistan now on CSPAN.
that’s not exactly off topic
Wasn’t Krazy Kristol one of the guys who went ballistic when Clinton intervened in Bosnia, something to the effect that the vaunted U.S. military shouldn’t be used as babysitters?
Can you imagine if this miraculous transformation of the military had happened on a Democrat’s watch? Faux News would be screaming 24/7 that the “damned liberals have broken the army!” But when Bush does it? Never mind, it’s all good.
sandero, I understand your point but your example fails
Jewish are told they are “the chosen people” yet they are taught they don’t know what they are chosen for, for instance a rabi will say’;
“perhaps we are chosen to always have strife.”
they are also taught other people can be chosen as well
but I understand your thought
Do you think there is any chance that any of the top people in the military will be held accountable for the messes they made in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Someone has to ask… why are only good at dropping bombs and even then we manage to hit wedding parties and so forth?
I think the DOD is a bunch of slackers at best.
The Repubs in WA are proving themselves to be an interesting bunch, aren’t they? Both bigwigs & plain ol’ caucasers ;->
I used the Jewish example, but most fundie people believe that they are special because of their religion. Islamic fundies are no better.
Fundies either want to convert you or kill you, but rarely live in peace.
Stray too far off I5 and things get weird. Been there.
excellany point and in fact, if you believe your heritage and religion at all, you MUST believe you are special
that’s part of being in the religion in the first place
aha…true for the most part but some religions are exclusionary and the fundies don’t even want you in there if you came from a differant religion
That party is such a bunch of dishonest, greedy and lawbreakers it is hard to conceive that they are taken seriously.
Politics can be dirty, but these people really have given a whole new meaning to the phrase dirty politics.
And to think half the country identifies as republican.
WHY?
off for some fun in teh indoor pool
see all later
OT Media barred from covering a speech by Rove at a prep school.
They will only come out of the bat caves to enter into another cave. The light of day kills dontcha know?
Religion is the opiate of the people and the repubs have demonstrated again that money is the root of all evil.
Mix em up and you get televangicals… for example.
Religion is not the opiate of all of the people. Fundamentalists of any stripe—be they religious, political, economic, etc. are dangerous.
one more thing before I dress (undress) for the pool, this from think progress right now;
now THAT looks like something interesting to read, doesn’t it?
Oh yea, we got em right where we want em. Just like how we stopped the spread of communism by losing in Vietnam.
Karl Rove is the square root of all evil.
Opium is the religion of the masses!
Liberty, it is so nice to have you and Total Information Awareness, sharing your corporate talking points with the angry fem hippie bloggers. As usual, you catapult the war propaganda, in a very funny way. How many tours of duty have you served in Iraq?
In the post Saddam, days you folks said we were winning. But at least we are winning now.
Yes, bribes can work for a while.
Ring the Church bells, and let the kids out of school to watch the Victory March of our brave troops. Thank you God for our great leaders who have won the war, especially Kommander Guy.
LL,
Come on how many times do you get to claim victory? I thought victory was declared in May of 2003. The American people are smarter than this. It might work with the Right Wing Nuts but the 70% of Americans who want us out of Iraq as soon as possible understand that we are winning is more spin by the least credible administration in history.
Ideally, the military in our system is simply a tool of national policy. Military leaders simply carry out the instructions of civilian authorities to the best of their abilities. If they are inefficient, they get removed/demoted. If they are criminal, they get prosecuted. But the fact that they have been sent on a bad mission, or a mission that they are incapable of achieving, is the fault of the civilian leadership under our system.
Huck & Co will get a recount if they push it that far. They know which knife to dig into the WA Repub establishment. From the very conservative Seattle Times:
“This was an error in judgment by Mr. Esser,” a Huckabee campaign release said. “Washington Republicans know, from bitter experience in the 2004 gubernatorial election, the terrible results that can come from bad ballot counting.”
Keep evoking Chris Gregoire’s ‘04 election squeaker, Hucksters, & you’ll definitely get your way…
In Afghanistan it probably is. ;-/
Someone reach through their monitor and slap me for responding to LL!
*smack*
Rev,
There are many wonderful lessons for life in religious teachings. I won’t dispute that.
There are also traps in the structure of religions which can have some not so good consequences and that basically relates to “group think”. It’s that rigid need to fit into a mold without thinking that seems to be the opiate quality Marx referred to.
Thought you had learned that lesson by now.
naughty Raven.
No. It’s important to hear different perspectives. People see the world in different ways. Some — “Afghanistan is a great victory” — are more difficult for me to comprehend than others.
The real problem is that CONGRESS is to declare war. And now the executive see the military as an extension of their branch, a tool of their foreign policy.
We really have given the executive too much power, and that was way before Bush.
We need to take a lot back… and fast, or we will be a authoritarian make believe deMOCKracy.
Thanks, I needed that!
You can’t generalize that broadly and put all religions in that category. Again, fundamentalisms of any stripe are unhealthy—even fundamentalist atheists. Group think is not necessary for being an adherent of a faith tradition. There is a wide variety out there of collected congregations where there are as many opinions as there are people.
Frankly I get tired of having to say this here.
Remember crow, Westy, “we never lost a battle”! Pham Van Dong “That is true but it is also irrelevant”!
digg mates, don’t forget to digg this post!
McCain owns this surge.
say it loud.
Did you ever notice that Sen McCain looks like Wallace from the “Wallace and Grommit” cartoons?
Well Rev, it’s good for you not to always preach to the choir doncha think?
Will an eye poke do? Doink.
It’s okay. You’re human. :)
I’m not digg’n it cause the 110th owns it too!
Yep, we never lost a battle. Just the war and 58,000 dead, plus a million or so Vietnamese.
That’s kind of why I hang out here instead of the political/religious blogs, but still, the attempts of tucking us all neatly in one box make me a little crazy. The folks that hang out here are smart enough to know better. No one here want’s the rest of us to stereotype them based on anything they say so why are people of faith—whatever that faith may be—fair game?
Assuming they’re based on facts and presented with logic and reason. I’m not uncomfortable ignoring the rest.
and then there’re the walking wounded
But, I thank you for being so tenacious.
You make an important point, a very clear distinction that needs to be reiterated.
(sometimes the other cheek thing over and over gives you Such a Crick in the Neck. :)
Slowly I turned, step by step
Shai Sacks has an interesting post—please follow the links too—at MyDD that gives a much fuller sense of the wide variety of religious perspectives on social issues that we care about.
Ha. Good morning, Raven.
I know what you mean.
Well said.
Niagra Falls……………
-G
That was my point
Well hello deah!
Did you by any chance see Bill Moyer last Friday night?
CTuttle and I were talking about it yesterday.
A fellow, Jimmy Rodriguez, a Latino Evangelist Leader was on.
Interesting guy who challenged my kneejerk steretyped thinking about Evangelists.
Jeeze, I forgot how violent that is!
Appropos of…something (or not), there is a great documentary series I bought from the History Channel simply called The Nazis: A Warning from History. It covers details of the rise of various extreme right- and leftwing political groups after WWI and, in particular, their strong rise after the Wallstreet collapse that set off the Great Depression. Germany was the most hardest hit country, by far, in Europe – American bankers had stepped in where the Europeans did not to offer loans up the ying-yang for Germany’s redevelopment and when the stock market and economy crashed…those banks called in their loans and pfffft! The communist and nationalist groups really exploded then…but I digress.
Anyway, a thorough examination of the Nazi’s (and Hitler’s) “leadership” style showed that there really wasn’t a leadership style per se. There was very little leadership at all, in fact. What Hitlerbaby did was simply call for general or desired outcomes and then let his subordinates have at it. In fact, quite often he would assign two nearly identical tasks to two different people and let them have at each other trying to obtain control and ownership of dur Fuhrer’s desired program. He literally believed in a survival of the fittest sort of “leadership” wherein subordinates were supposed to prove their value by winning various contests. Chaos was the underlying result. Chaos and lots of backstabbing.
That is what immediately came to my mind when I read the conclusions of the report.
Just sayin’
The problem is that people see “facts” differently, too. It’s tempting to assume that there is a definable set of “objective” facts that everyone sees and therefore must acknowledge. But people see the world differently — the “facts” are different or are at least perceived/processed differently.
Facts. What are they?
I could lay down a lot of ‘facts’ supported by statistics and fairly well decimate Great American Heroes of myth like Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, or FDR, never mind the easier targets like Truman or Nixon. How many are even willing to listen or debate?
Yair, I learned all the myths in public school in the U.S., I believed them then, I miss them now but I know it was not reality.
Gimme a hint on Lincoln. I’m not a fan, as I think the North (where I live) would have been better off with the South as a separate country.
Absolutely. But, there’s also a difference between a claim (e.g. We’re winning the war) and a set of facts (which may or may not be in dispute) which back up the claim. An unfounded claim is not worth much. But, I agree that we must be tolerant and open-minded in evaluating facts that are reasonably in dispute.
Oh, Scarecrow.
You just said a mouthful.
Covers A Lot of different problems, I think.
Thanks! I needed that laugh :)
Great points about 1920’s and 30’s rise of Hitler. Remember also that those Bolsheviks were having their own free for all to the East that made for a great Enemy. Parallels also with the methods of Stalin and Trotsky– enemies everywhere both internal and external. Communism never failed, it WAS failed.
but imagine what that country would be like today!
and anyway, we’d still have gone to war.
Oh I agree. We should have accepted all the blacks and given them their plantations and stars and bars. Good riddance.
Thanks for the interesting observations. Got to go now, will catch up w/the thread later.
Scarecrow,
As always, right on point. Democrats need to stop fighting among themselves and protect us from McCain.
Three Stooges and Hitler
AS A SPECIALIST IN the study of propaganda, the University of Dayton’s Don Morlan is especially fond of the film that Moe, Larry and director Jules White all considered their best, the 1940 short “You Nazty Spy.” “That was a classic,” says Morlan. “The comedy came out satirizing Nazis two years before Pearl Harbor,
We ned protection from all the repubs. They are in fact the enemy of the people… at least 99% of them and the others who dream about being in the 1%.
Woohoo! Have been trying to login to FDL for several weeks now, and it finally seems to be working. Now y’all are stuck with me.
well, eCAHNominics, the ‘conventional wisdom’ is that no one believe din states’ rights and everyone hated the idea of secession. That’s what was passed down, as some pratical sage once said, History is written by the winning side.
In point of fact, before the Civil War most of the American people accepted the idea of secession as legal — after all, taking exception to the original King George was exactly the same sort of effort. So, at several points before 1861, the New England states seriously considered seceding, usually for economic reasons.
And taking into account, Great Britian was able to end its own slavery, generally in the Caribbean colonies, by Compensated Emancipation, in only six years, and with NO war. Eh?
At the time of secession, Slavery was on the major topic anyhow. Only 25% of southern families owned slaves. And note that the Emancipation Proclamation, which Lincoln himself said was only a politicaly ploy, only freed slaves in the south, not necessarily controlled at the point by the Union, but did NOTHING for slaves in the ’safe’ border states.
I’m just not following that memo. The Dems bought it lock, stock and barrel.
They want the talk? Let them do some walking.
I was wondering the same thing, Elliot.
What are the strengths of diversity, and
ECAHNomics, what would the affects on the economies of the two separate countries be, do you think?
The only country to go to war over slavery (and the American Civil War does not even apply, as the rationale was ‘to save the Uniont’ ) was America.
Thanks. You’re right, that certainly was not the way we were taught in elementary school.
Don’t forget the great Dictator.
and
Welcome Gromit. (ya like cheese?)
I regret to inform you that Rep Tom Lantos (D CA) has died.
may he rest in peace.
I did see that. Evangelicals are not necessarily fundamentalists. Those terms are often used interchangeably and they are not the same. Fundamentalists of all stripes see their way as the only way and literally interpret their teachings to be the only truth. Evangelicals are Christians who are dedicated to bringing the “good news” everywhere and trying to bring people into their faith. Some Evangelicals are fundamentalists too, but not all of them. Lots of Evangelicals are getting on the bandwagon to protect the environment and they care about human rights and dignity. Immigration (pro) is an issue for many as well.
Again, religious folks don’t all fit into tidy boxes. Glad hearing him on Moyers challenged you to think further.
And most people seem to forget that Moyers himself is an ordained minister. Nuff said.
Since it’s such a counterfactual, I haven’t given much thought to what it would actually be like if it had happened. I’m just sick of the South’s domination of U.S. federal politics in my lifetime, and wish I could corral them off in their own country to do damage there, leaving me alone.
Perhaps we could isolate them into their own little hellish country while still placing a protective buffer around the Mississippi River…leaving them to their own worst desires would make the Gulf “Dead Zone” FAR worse than it already is. Can’t trust them not to totally destroy the Gulf of Mexico for all life…
What I did not know was that this was done well before the Chaplin film.
Oh, and demi, my particular antipathy was set off when I listened to Garry Wills’ Negro President: Jefferson & the Slave Power on tape. The unrepresentational domination of U.S. politics by the white south started with the 60% rule & has gone on, with a few breaks, ever since.
Yep, Baptist.
I’m sure you’ve seen his interviews with Joseph Campbell, The Powers Of the Myth. From the 80’s, if I recall.
Some people from my church did a study on that last year, me included.
Really great stuff. I love Bill.
OT here, Tom Lantos has passed away.
Meanwhile, the biggest reason for the drop in violence — the cease-fire declared by Moqtada al-Sadr — is set to expire soon, and Sadr’s under pressure not to extend it.
But of course the US media doesn’t like mentioning this very often. They’d prefer to pretend that “Al-Qaeda in Iraq” is the real issue.
You are familiar with the modern term ‘blowback’.
If you had lived through an unnecessary civil war that offed 620,000 people, and — in the south, after the depredations of Sherman and the trashing of the Shenandoah Valley by Sheridan, and 12 years of “reconstruction” with all the crony corruption etc., well hey, you would recognise that scenario from Right Now In Irak?! So what goes around, comes around. Ha!
Remember, Sheridan’s reward was that he got to play genocide with the Plains Indians to make the paths safe for the railroads …
I led courses in that way back during my internship year, almost 20 years ago!!!
My former father-in-law was an American Baptist, University of Chicago grad, serious lefty. (Also a USMC Chaplain).
Depends on where you went to school. In Kentucky, we were taught this (Kentucky being one of the more divided states in all sorts of ways).
Another way to show this is prior to the War, the reference was to “these United States are” while post-war the description became “the United States is.
That is, pre-war the collective description was plural, after it was singular, one entity rather than a grouping of entities.
And the vice & the versa…I prefer your version, Raven.
When Marx wrote that religion is the opiate of the masses his theories didn’t quite extend to visualizing a much bigger tranquilizer- 24/7 brain candy entertainment tv featuring mindnumbing shows like “America’s Next Top Model.”
Have to drive in for breakfast meeting (eggs & proposal reviews go so well together).
Look forward to reading you all later.
I live in the south and politically agree with you. I’m as sick of hearing slick oily southern accents pronounce abhorrent policies as you are. But, the problem is all the people in the midwest, west, and mid-Atlantic states who endorse their policies and vote representatives who follow the southerners. Hopefully that is changing.
Interesting to think of the civil war aftermath as blowback. Hadn’t applied that concept to that event, though it’s certainly an appropriate way to look at it.
Any war, especially one of that magnitude, creates long term problems that follow the law of the unintended outcome.
Sherman’s “march to the sea” is way overblown. I can take you 30 miles from here to see Madison, GA where he didn’t torch any of the “Antebellum” mansions.
Gotta run the kid to school.
I’ll be back.
Keep my place warm?
Thank you Scarecrow!
You forgot Haiti.
-G
Yea, according to them if you opposed the war in Vietnam you were a traitor but they fall all over themselves praising people who took up arms against the US Government. Isn’t that what a traitor is?
“Any war, especially one of that magnitude, creates long term problems that follow the law of the unintended outcome.”
Exactly so, eCAHN, which encapsulates the discussion.
History is never as tidy as they tell us in school. :-)
Novista, beating the drum about the poor Southern victims of the Northern War of Aggression is making steam come out of my ears.
-G
It is simply another version of the “this would be easy if this were a dictatorship…so long as I was the dictator” kind of thing.
One of the other ironies is many of the areas of the south that are most rabid in support of the Confederacy today were in fact Union leaning in the 1860s. Most all of the Appalachian Mountain region was pro-Union. That’s how Andrew Johnson became Lincoln’s VP and how West by-God Virginia came into being.
Hail, hail Hailstone.
-G
Actually I the school in question is Choate Rosemary Hall in Wallingford, CT. JFK’s alma mater.
Well, Raven, the chronological sequence is, IIRC, Lincoln was not on several southern states during the four-way election — and most of the southern states had seceded peacefully before the election. And since the attitude of the times was, secession is acceptable, what’s not to like?
Of course, if you believe secession is ‘evil’then you would have to condemn the New England states that considered such a move THREE time. And, what’s more, New York City, at one point thought it would be A Good Thing if they seceded not only from the Union but from the state of New York, and set themselves up as a duty-free port. LOL.
Considering is the same as taking up arms?
The Confederates attacked Fort Sumter starting in April 1861, after Lincoln had taken office and IIRC, those were the opening shots of the war
Oh dear, I don’t recall I said much about poor Southern victims. But I’d be happy to discuss the possibility save I think we’re EPu’d.
Tsk!
Thanks for the correction – horrid mistake. I was following a group of schools and was more interested in the endowment stuff than the Rove speech. My apologies to Exeter – should not have trusted my memory..
Mods. Any chance you can delete my reply 150? It contains a VERY unfair error. (see 155 & 160). Anything you can do would be appreciated.
I know this is EPU territory, but someone might check back:
Fort Sumter;
OK, let me see … my notes indicate — secession happened before the election. And, (I have to laugh here, having lived (?) in Providence”) The Daily Post reported: ” For Three weeks the administration newspapers have been assuring us that Fort Sumter would be abandoned. “Mr. Lincoln saw an opportunity to inaugurate civil wae without appearing in the character of an aggressor.”
Nary the first nor the last newspaper to take exception … “a pretext for letting loose the horrors of war.” (Jersey City Standard)
Tsk!!
Novista, peace.
-G
…it doesn’t say “…money is the root of all evil”, it says the “LOVE of money is the root of all evil”. Please don’t take quotes out of context just to try and make a point.
What Dakine said.
Reminds me: In recent years there’s been a revival of a legend of “loyal slaves” who willingly fought, with their masters’ consent, for the Confederacy. But it was quite thoroughly debunked back when there were still Confederate survivors alive to shoot it down: In the years from 1913 to 1915, the battle over this myth raged in the pages of Confederate Veteran magazine.
During 1913, the pro-myth people made their pitch, and it is their writings that the current would-be revivers of the myth like to cite. But in June of 1915, conclusive evidence, in the form of communications between Robert E. Lee and the Confederate government in early 1865, was published in the magazine showing that not only did no blacks ever fight for the Confederacy, it was simply not even legal right up until the Confederate government, in a last-ditch move, authorized it in late March of 1865 — less than two weeks before the end, and far too late for any black troops to be mustered, even had their owners been willing to part with them.
In fact, as late as February 10, 1865, an attempt to legalize the use of black soldiers (which General Lee had been begging to do for some time, as his troops were heavily outnumbered in the field)was shot down vehemently:
As was noted in the WSJ on May 8, 1997:
“Iraq is forever” should be the Valentine’s day card from Hallmark or wherever:
NYT: Gates Endorses Troop Withdrawals: Translation Poor People’s Kids and Husbands Ain’t Never Comin’ Home
The policy is flawed, aside from morally bankrupt.
Logistically, unless all US citizens are made slaves to support the military government,the financial burden for running a foriegn policy like BUShCO’s, this policy is nor sustainable so it will fail when we rn out od resources and allies (already).
Then those areas we are attack/occupying will revert back only worse.
You can’t bomb an idea, a phiosopy or a religion.
Violence will strengthen the opposition. Every action has a reaction.
Wisdom is the better part of valour.
”In point of fact, before the Civil War most of the American people accepted the idea of secession as legal — after all, taking exception to the original King George was exactly the same sort of effort. So, at several points before 1861, the New England states seriously considered seceding, usually for economic reasons.”
In fact, before the Constitution was written several tried to do so. Recall the Shay’s and Whiskey Rebellions (as well as a few others). These were rather vigorously suppressed by the men we call the ”Founders”…or later ”Framers” who devised the Constitution to strengthen the Federal Government. Secession was not in the books after that…at least not without the agreement of Congress.
”And taking into account, Great Britian was able to end its own slavery, generally in the Caribbean colonies, by Compensated Emancipation, in only six years, and with NO war. Eh?”
Actually there were long efforts to eradicate slavery in both England and Scotland dating back into the late 1600’s. Colonial slavery was ended only after several quite violent slave uprisings, and the recognition that England could gain an upper hand on France and Spain by terminating the slave trade. So war (with France) and in their Caribbean (and African) colonies, were involved in the banning of slavery. And these bans were not without WAR.
”At the time of secession, Slavery was on the major topic anyhow. Only 25% of southern families owned slaves. And note that the Emancipation Proclamation, which Lincoln himself said was only a politicaly ploy, only freed slaves in the south, not necessarily controlled at the point by the Union, but did NOTHING for slaves in the ’safe’ border states.”
Most Southern families didn’t own slaves simply because they couldn’t afford them. It wasn’t because they didn’t want one. Or because they opposed the institution. Actually, slavery had been prohibited already in the recent Territorial acquisitions of the West…by Congress. And some border States abutting the Southern slave-holding States did ban slavery…but this was resisted strongly by Southerners. Tensions were increased due to ambivalent court rulings in slavce ”transport cases” (e.g. California vs. Smith 1846 compared to the Dred Scot ruling). Southerners argued ”States Rights” but ignored the right of States like California to establish that their residents were free. Then Southerners argued that it was individual rights to define people as property that held sway.
Dakine and Novista…the opening shots of the war were going on in the borderlands of Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, Oklahoma and the West…as well as W. Virginia…long before Ft. Sumter. The Southern States wanted to expand slavery into areas devoid of it. They wanted to be allowed to carry and capture slaves in States that banned the “peculiar institution”. They disagreed with the US ban on transport of slaves into the Southern States (a ban that was in fact, allowable under the Constitution…as was a nationwide ban on slavery…provided the voites were there for it in the Senate).
The South was looking ahead and seeing the inevitable ~ that there would be a Constitutional ban on slavery. This was framed as “States Rights”…but that was not an acceptable option under the Constitution…and neither was an autonomously-decided secession.
Libertylee just enlisted. I hope.