if one person goes to buy a gallon of milk for $2 why should someone else have to pay $4 for it?

I’m sorry, but a quart of milk in Vermont should be cheaper than a quart of milk in Barrow, AK.

Canadian. I knew an Ian Welsh in the Halifax NS area. Was that you?

SIGH

SIGH

SIGH

Whew, now that we all got our SIGHS out of our system…

“What is missing so very often is even an economics 101 understanding of economic terms and processes that make reading the comments a matter of endurance.”

Like this sentence? Just kidding…

“The most egregious misuse of terms “Rich” (as relates to income derived from economic activity) and “Wealth” (as relates to accumulated unconsumed return on economic activity) illuminate a structural ignorance unsurpassed anywhere else and will provide fertile grounds for the demagogue and propagandist to plant their mischievous seeds of disinformation, discord and destruction.”

Wow, talk about endurance!! You could have just said that the misunderstanding of wealth and income leads to bad results. Or even more simply, don’t misunderstand! I didn’t get anything more out of this sentence then that. You know, an over-emphasis of words where fewer would suffice actually detracts from the impact of what you want to say. Just some helpful advice.

“What is so difficult to understand [ARE] the four economic inputs to the economic process and what the returns to each are: land/rent; Labour/wage; capital/interest; and entrepreneur/profit” which simply put would satisfy the statement: Economic process is – the use of resources and labor with tools by someone who puts everything together to create an economic good. Economic goods satisfy economic needs, wants and desires.”

I don’t find that difficult to understand. SIGH….maybe some people do right? SIGH….

“By reducing”

Reducing what exactly?

“to a basic more universal definition”

Universal truths are actually the most difficult to discern. Aristotle thought so because these truths are furthest away from our senses.

“…economic discussion can be cleansed of emotional rhetoric that is the province of the demagogue and propagandist.”

Economics is a philosophy, so you will never “cleanse” it of emotion. What you have to do is determine where and how emotions come into play and then be in the position to explain why they did appear. You will find it is because of a belief in a certain area of economics.

“All too often commentary is that of rage, misdirected, misunderstood, and counterproductive to their desired result let alone an acceptable economic end.”

Then you are looking in the wrong places. There are plenty of places (not on TV or in the newspaper) where the discourse is calm and rational.

“Examples of this include but are not limited to:”

I would hope not, or else the post would go on forever.

“flat tax raters (including “simple” system advocates)”

Bad. Flat taxes hurt the consumer (actually all taxes ultimately are born by the consumer.

“gold-bugs (and other mercantilist/monetarist ideologies)”

Woah, THAT’s a jump from one thing to another. Gold bugs? Gold bugs are opposite to monetarists. Or haven’t you heard of the Chicago School of Economics?

“confiscatory corporate disenfranchisementalists (as anti-fascism position)”

That isn’t even a word dude.

“and a hodge-podge of malformed political opinions masquerading as economic fact.”

[edited by mod]

“There is a roaring display of ignorance coming from the product of the American educational system, even through university, how it can be unobserved is astounding, but in the country of the blind, the one-eyed will be king – or dictator.”

HERE I will agree with you. I guess you do know SOME stuff.

[Mod note: Gratuitous insult removed. Continuing to insult other commenters will result in the entire comment simply being removed. Thank you for your cooperation.]

Furthermore, expenditure has many friends because it means someone’s livlihood, while conservation or restraint has no friends because no one but the community benefits. So taxes go up and we have Libertarian types rationalizing their reluctance to pay taxes with all sorts of theories when the question is how much do we reasonably render unto Caesar?

What is missing so very often is even an economics 101 understanding of economic terms and processes that make reading the comments a matter of endurance. The most egregious misuse of terms “Rich” (as relates to income derived from economic activity) and “Wealth” (as relates to accumulated unconsumed return on economic activity) illuminate a structural ignorance unsurpassed anywhere else and will provide fertile grounds for the demagogue and propagandist to plant their mischievous seeds of disinformation, discord and destruction. What is so difficult to understand the four economic inputs to the economic process and what the returns to each are: land/rent; Labour/wage; capital/interest; and entrepreneur/profit which simply put would satisfy the statement: Economic process is – the use of resources and labor with tools by someone who puts everything together to create an economic good. Economic goods satisfy economic needs, wants and desires.

By reducing to a basic more universal definition, economic discussion can be cleansed of emotional rhetoric that is the province of the demagogue and propagandist. All too often commentary is that of rage, misdirected, misunderstood, and counterproductive to their desired result let alone an acceptable economic end. Examples of this include but are not limited to: flat tax raters (including “simple” system advocates), gold-bugs (and other mercantilist/monetarist ideologies), confiscatory corporate disenfranchisementalists (as anti-fascism position), and a hodge-podge of malformed political opinions masquerading as economic fact. There is a roaring display of ignorance coming from the product of the American educational system, even through university, how it can be unobserved is astounding, but in the country of the blind, the one-eyed will be king – or dictator.

This is being submitted EPU for Ian’s perusal. Again a stunningly well done post. All the best…..

Hmmm…that’s strange to hear you say that.

What libertarians want is an exception to human history. You probably don’t look at history (or else you would have a little more sophisticated view of libertarianism). Almost all of human history has been filled with disease, young death, tyranny, poverty, wars, and in general a very unhappy experience. The one hundred or one hundred and fifty years during the industrial revolution (19th century) was filled with what was perhaps the fastest rise out of poverty ever recorded in human history.

It is very easy to think, feel, and be convinced, that collectivism is the way to go. It’s easy because all you have to do to create collectivism is to think “if there is a problem, there ought to be a law”, and “if someone is hurting, let’s designate Mr X to be there help anyone out”.

This is why collectivism is the almost natural human tendency. I understand where you are coming from, and that you truly believe that it is the taxes you pay that is the reason why we have it so good. But you are incorrect. Nobody spends money better then the owner of that money. The world has already tried what you want and what you think is best. It has failed miserably. Your ideas have ALREADY been put into practice before, so don’t think you are thinking of anything original here.

What libertarians want is not a LAWLESS society. That is the biggest misconception there is. Libertarians want to have laws that prevent all the things you are worried about, such as theft. Where they differ from the mainstream is that libertarians want government to fulfill the functions that the founding founders wanted it to fill. The founders wrote the Constitution as a document that dictated what the state can and cannot do. All libertarians want is for government to follow the Constitution.

If you think that this is a bad thing to do, then you are a walking contradiction, because without libertarians, this country would not exist, and you would probably be living under tyranny. Because without America showing the world how to be free, the world would still be living under theocratic dictatorships. You absolutely 100% take for granted the fact that libertarians are who BUILT this country, so to say anything bad about libertarians is to say bad things about the people who allowed you to be free to say bad things about ANYTHING!!!

If you cannot accept this fundamental truth, I suggest you either get out of the country and move to a place that practices what you are preaching, or else educate yourself, for pete’s sake.

if you don’t want to pay taxes, I think you shouldn’t

and then I want you to pay for everything my parents and grandparents paid for and you used since you don’t want to pay taxes.

then I DON’T want you to ask for welfare because you will not have a penny left to feed yourself and you entire household will owe money for two generations

so be my guest, opt out and then pay for what you haven’t paid for like the water in your house, the electricity lines to your house, the sidewalk you walk, the police, the fire dept, and a host of items you could never ever afford

come back when you pay those bills

OK, listen to me very carefully. Libertarians are not your enemy. Please do not make blanket statements you know to be false, like “libertarians believe such and such”. This is collective group think that really undermines ideas and focuses on people rather than ideas. People come and go, but ideas stay forever.

PERHAPS you didn’t undertand but I am pretty sure you do and just want to think I should listen to you;

when a person is a member of a group who have principles that are the very reason the group is formed, OF COURSE I can and SHOULD make blanket statements

now you can pay close attention to the following as you asked me to pay attention;

libertarians are EVERYONE’S enemy, even libertaritans becuase they have no clue what they are asking for

you NEED to pay your bills, you NEED regulations otherwise whoever can steel from you WILL steel from you

a corporations can NEVER compete with the government for providing the commons, services that everyone needs to survive

now follow after me

libertarians ARE your enemy

are there some people who THIK they are libertarian but they are not?

yes, people and corporations that understand they have bills to pay, taxes and regulations to follow

those types of libertarians are not my enemy, the ones that actually think the market can decide ANYTHING?

they are the country’s enemy, my enemy and your enemy

enjoy the rest of the day

OK, listen to me very carefully. Libertarians are not your enemy. Please do not make blanket statements you know to be false, like “libertarians believe such and such”. This is collective group think that really undermines ideas and focuses on people rather than ideas. People come and go, but ideas stay forever.

So you cannot make the statement that

“libertarians understand but refuse to acknowledge, that there is a foundation that exists which they have not paid for, nor could they possibly pay for, even if they had more wealth then anyone else, the foundation was built over generations with the entire economy contributing”

Libertarians (at least myself and those I know) ACCEPT this fact you mention about having a foundation that we did not pay for. No libertarians if they are libertarians will deny this.

I suspect that you do not like libertarians for one reason or another, and hence you place them in a corner of allegedly refusing to accept basic truths such as the one you just laid out.

“there are maintenance costs, and if those maintenance costs are not recovered, the foundation collapses and costs MUCH more to rebuild then had it been maintained and modernized”

The “maintenance costs” you are talking about is the continuous reinvestment of revenues in the replacement of business assets. These costs are not a cost borne by society, they are costs borne by individual businessmen who want to continue to make money. Without that drive to continually make money, all businessmen would instead consume everything they make in revenues on such things as booze, cars, houses, and other personal consumption items. The fact that they DON’T, is the foundation for civilization to even continue.

“libertarians also don’t understand the in most cases, regulation were put into place to resolve issues corporations caused and refused to pay for themselves, they wanted everyone else to pay their costs”

They understand how and why people think this, and how and why these people are wrong. It is the COURTS that are the adjudicator of individual conflicts. Regulations that go over and above the protection of individual rights end up HAMPERING the market, they do not improve it.

“for instance, I remember when you flew over new york and California, the air was literally yellow…this was the crap corporations were pouring into my kids air and they refused to clean up after themselves”

Would you believe me is I say that soviet russia was FAR more polluting than the US? Would you also believe me if I say that native American indians in the 16th century wrote about the smog over the area now known as Los Angeles? Pollution due to industry is so minimal it should be as important as 1 ppm of lead in water.

“we had to write legislation that forced them to pay their own bills because they refused, they literally wanted to steal from everyone else, “why should WE pay for the crap we dump in your kids air?””

This is because during the industrial revolution, business and government teamed up and literally availed themselves of any and all pollution. Libertarians know that property rights were violated at that time, and has actually continued to this day.

If property rights were 100% respected in this country, there would be no pollution problem.

“and my education, the profession I have is entirely because other people built the schools I went to and paid the teachers salary and most of their education”

Similarly, the people who are going to be born after you will benefit from that which you contribute to now.

“I would be a very poor man had it not been for the bills that other people paid into our infrastructure and taxes are the method of recovering the expenses I have used getting here”

Taxes did not help you. Individual businessmen managing businesses were the real benefit to you. Want proof? Just look around you, and count how many things are found in a store (in whole like the PC you are using or in part like the bricks of your home). Literally EVERYTHING was made by businessmen who wanted nothing but profit income. Thank them.