I’ve gotta say, the first half of Allen Raymond’s How to Rig an Election is a tough slog. It describes Raymond’s early career as a GOP operative, in which he stopped at nothing to smear his candidates’ opponents.
Yes, I was a dick. That was my job, and I was pretty good at it–and learning every day.
As someone who has helped a challenger beat a well-funded incumbent who used every kind of smear, I simply don’t buy that such tactics are necessary, and the cynicism of it really pissed me off.
That said, the first half of the book includes fascinating descriptions of Raymond’s tenure working under Haley Barbour and Mitch McConnell (apparently, McConnell rarely speaks). And throughout the book, Raymond includes extensive descriptions of the contempt with which neo-cons treated (and still treat, no doubt) north-eastern, socially moderate Republicans.
There was always a palpable sense that we were being held in contempt by our colleagues from the Southern and mountain states. Somehow, you were less of a Republican if you tended toward compromise.
It’s the second-half of the book, though, where Raymond really exposes the cynical underbelly of Republican operations. Raymond was, recall, the telemarketing consultant whom the New Hampshire GOP employed to jam the phones of the Democratic GOTV lines on election day in 2002, helping to get John Sununu elected over Jeanne Shaheen.
Raymond describes how, almost out of the blue, Jim Tobin engaged Raymond’s firm to "disrupt" the six GOTV phone lines of the NH Democratic party. With little more than a phone conference with a former FEC lawyer by way of ethical self-reflection, Raymond took the job. By 8:00 in the morning on election day, the NH GOP started contacting Raymond in a panic, telling him to abort the phone-jamming operation because the Chair had decided it was illegal. But it was too late. Less than a month later, the Manchester, NH police department contacted Raymond about the operation. By the time federal investigators subponeaed Raymond the following summer, he was ready to tell the truth. That made him–alone among the three main people who executed the plan–the person who would flip on the Republicans rather than serve as a firewall. Whereas Raymond paid for his own defense and got pilloried by the GOP as a liar, Jim Tobin, the guy who first proposed the operation to Raymond, enjoyed $3 million in RNC-paid legal defense and remains free. (Kind of reminds you of Scooter Libby, huh?)
After the operation, it dawned on Raymond the GOP had picked him because, as a north-easterner who never joined the Bush team, he was expendable. And as someone anxious to get a chunk of the considerable GOP telemarketing business, Raymond accepted the job, in spite of its dubious legality. This book tells what it was like to be the fall guy for one of the GOP’s smarmy voter suppression operations.
Since Raymond’s book appeared, there have been further revelations about how the first prosecutor on the case–who appears to have realized Raymond was set up to take the fall–was stymied in his efforts to indict Tobin. And how Dick Cheney’s personal lawyer lobbied the DOJ to hold off on indicting Tobin.
Raymond’s book doesn’t get into those details, though he concludes that this thing went much higher than Tobin (and Tobin’s calls to the White House the day of the phone-jamming would seem to support that). He argues the phone-jamming plan came from the RNC and the White House, not from the NH GOP themselves.
The Bush White House had complete control of the RNC and there was no way someone like Tobin was going to try what he was proposing without first getting it vetted by his higher-ups. That’s if Tobin, rather than one of his bosses, had even thought of the ploy himself–which seemed unlikely.
And though Raymond never says so directly, Karl Rove hovers over this story like some creepy maestro.
Standing alone in that soundproof chamber was Karl Rove. It was an impressive sight, that behemoth flailing his arms while barking into a headset, surrounded by a vast blinking array of laptops, desktops, telephones, and monitors (noticeably all of the computer gear was Apple rather than PC). He clearly saw himself as a field general with his all-seeing eyes on every last troop. The effect was something out of James Bond, or the first time you glimpse Darth Vader in his life-support pod, the bald head revealed just before the helmet comes down.
This is a story still being pursued. Waxman’s and Conyers’ committees are still pursuing the story, both in terms of the jamming itself, as well as an exemplar of the politicized Bush DOJ. And, as Raymond describes the RNC’s political director admitting that "I’ve made sure there’s no e-mail traffic on this"–suggesting that this may be part of the larger of the bigger missing email scandal.
Let’s welcome Allen Raymond to FireDogLake.
Related posts:
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- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Douglas A. Blackmon, Slavery By Another Name
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Leigh Stringer, The Green Workplace
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance





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Allen welcome to the Lake.
Hi Allan, thanks so much for being here today.
Can you tell us, have you been in contact with Waxman and/or Conyers’ committees?
Allen
Have you ever personally rigged an election? Do you have evidence that any other republican has? Has Bush rigged an election?
Allen,
Thanks for joining us.
I know a lot of people are going to want to talk about NH.
But one part of your book I was particularly fascinated by was the animosity for the NE Republican. Given that that’s who just gave McCain the nomination for the presidency, how do you think the base of the party will respond?
Welcome Allen!
How many computers do you think Rove actually used, and do you think they were on RNC servers or some other kind of servers? Just wondering if you noticed…
Aloha, EW and Allen!
Do you think they will rig the November election in some effective way?
Allan, I am glad you decided to tell the truth.Even though your motivation was to try and save your own skin when you realized you were being tossed aside like a used condum.
Welcome to the Lake Allen – and thanks Emptywheel for a fascinating intro.
I was living in NH at the time and remember calling Sununu’s hq to fuss at the robocalls I was getting. Not the same thing but it was a hot race.
Allen:
Thanks for joining the chat. Sometimes there’s nothing more satisfying than war stories… And you’ve got a ton.
Can you tell us a little bit about the role of Jill Holtzman-Vogel at the RNC? Did you ever have to work with her? During the 2002 election she was General Counsel for the RNC, one of those attorneys that probably was making the calls “just up to the line.” Similarly, I wonder if you know or have any comments about “GOP operative” and Bush-Cheney ‘04 attorney Mark F. “Thor” Hearne, II?
And loved how the book opened. You made me remember my grand-dad’s old Underwood electric machine!
Hi Allen, thanks for coming away from the dark side. Technology only makes Orwell’s 1984 easier, and the only hope is for free-thinking humans to revolt against the machine. Why were Macs the preferred computers for the Republican dirty tricks operation? Was it something to do with security or the inability to hack as easily as PCs? Thanks again for coming clean.
Welcome to the lake Allen.
i got quite a kick out of your book. Enjoyed the war stories and the personality profile behind the names in the headlines.
Thank you for having me!
Welcome, Mr Raymond.
Do you think Senator Sununu was fairly elected? Do you think memories of his tactics will taint his current re-election campaign in NH?
Where do you now find gainful employment?
I was on the Hill this week speaking with House Judiciary majority staff. Their focus is voter supression, but it also appears they will have a hearing specific to the phone jamming case sometime this summer – or after the next Tobin trial.
Mr. Raymond, thanks for spending time here.
Were you and your colleagues under any special instructions about use of email?
Were you expected to use “best IT practices”, i.e, delete everything?
Has Bush riged an election HAHAHAHA.
I don’t know, 2000 seems pretty suspicious, I talk about that in the book and how once it went to the Supreme Court it was a lock for W.
So…what do you think is in store for Hillary or Obama? Which do you think the repubs are hoping for? And, do you agree that Edwards would have been the hardest to beat?
the power elite are running a dead horse against hill(murdoch is raising money for her). i’d say the fix is in and hill is the annointed one.
Would you do it (rigging elections in general, not just phone jamming) again, only smarter?
If Sen. Clinton is the nominee then base intensity will be strong if for no other reason than to vote NO on her. If Sen. Obama is the nominee the base intensity may falter, but there will beother dynamics at play that could offset a weak base.
Mr. Raymond,
As you went through your trial and writing this book what was the primary lesson you got out of your experience? I heven’t read your book yet.
Is this about the RNC email issue?
What do you make of the right wing noise machine saying they’ll never vote for McCain?
The word RIG in the book refers to both outright criminal activity – NH, but also how campaigns are waged. I say waged because campaign operatives refer to campaigns like it is war (e.g. “I’m parachuting into a campaign,” or, “I’ll put on my flak jacket and charge the hill)” that kind of nonsense). I don’t know if there will be an attempt to rig, but guaranteed somebody will be up to no good!
“…other dynamics at play.”
Can you talk more about this?
Allen – I certainly saw a lot of “interesting” campaign activity when I worked in politics in CT and it certainly was not on just one side … how do we as voters help get clean elections?
Basically, about all of their email issues…RNC/WH/other…missing emails…did Rove use a large number of computers. I know that in the Plame case, they looked at his “computer” hard drive…I’m wondering if he had a whole bunch of them…if that makes sense….some for election…some for RNC stuff…some for personal stuff…something like that….just wondering if you noticed.
I never once considered lying. In fact, I’m the only one involved who never lied. That was where I drew the line; when our government came to me and asked what happened I did not hesitate to be honest.
This gets to the issue of confusing campaigns with a moral endeavor. They are about winning. It is not about what is right or wrong, but does it work.
What are you thinking?
Welcome, and thanks for coming. Great intro, EW.
Mr Raymond,
After reading your book a couple of things came to mind:
1) It seems that your wife had a far stronger moral compass as you state a couple of times that she disapproved of actions you were taking.
2) The last two sentences at the bottom of page 178 seem to me to show a lack of understanding of morality:
“The way I looked at it, I was an ethical guy running a clean business. We may do some morally questionable things, but nothing illegal.”
You do realize that for most of the country ethical and moral go together and just because something is considered LEGAL it is not necessarily considered ethical and moral? Or is it in politics that if it is legal then by definition it is ethical?
Do you think they would attempt to stay in power? Are they that ruthless, or will they pack up their desks and leave? Just wondering…
Yes, Senunu beart Shaheen fair and square. The phone jamming went on for only an hour. Sununu won by roughly 20,000 votes, so his win was legit.
If you were to plan out a legislative agenda to make it harder to “rig” an election what laws would you propose?
For example if evey robocall or phone bank call was required to BEGIN with the indentiy of the sponsoring entity, would that be effective?
What would be effective? Not just with repect ot robo calls, but other types of campaign dirty tricks?
You described in your book how Hinnen got removed from the case (promoted up, if I understood your description) and the two AUSAs who took over did a less than stellar job on the case. And since your book has come out, McClatchy described how much trouble Hinnen had actually indicting Tobin. DO you think the two AUSAs who took over threw the Tobin case with the jury instructions, or was it just a matter of incompetence?
I guess she is Sen. Holtzman Vogel to us. I vaguely recall her. I know a former colleague of mine (and business partner) was the general consultant on her win last fall.
Allen -
Thanks for coming by here, and welcome back to the human race.
Go ahead, you can say it, we all know it, if Obama is nominated racism will be a big part of Republican strategery.
If the dark side is how campaigns are waged by both parties, I agree. Neither party is true blue.
The Mac thing was specific to Rove, when I saw him in action at the W. HQ in 2000. It made the impression that he was a techie – which is not stereotypical (at least then).
Maybe this is a crazy idea, but I’d love to see you go to work for the DNC as a consultant. Not to run the kind of operations you used to, but to help them anticipate and counter those types of operations. Have you ever given any thought to putting your experience to work for the other side?
I’m looking forward to reading your book soon.
(Lakers seem much mellower and more open-minded than the crowd that tore into Mr. Raymond over at TPMCafe recently.)
Hey Allen.
See anything out of the DNC and/or McAuliffe/Clintons that look “familiar”?
Was the call on election day to abort the phone jamming operation was legitimate or simply a clever attempt to have it both ways?
There was often an unspoken rule that the less of a paper trail the better. Although, when I worked for Haley Barbour (when he was RNC chairman) we were required to submit weekly reports. These were intel memos – what was happening in our region. One colleague then disliked the process so much he would make it one run-on sentence and slip in something like “if you’ve read this far I owe you a pizza.” I believe Haley requested the pizza. By this I mean Haley read everytying and has one of the best political minds I ever encountered personally.
In the book there is a passage about email traffic on the phone jamming that was very interesting, then then-political director responded to the scandal by saying “I made sure there was no email traffic.” That can mean either there was none, or any traffic has been eliminated.
Why would anyone believe that your election day phone-jamming was the only thing illegal about Sununu’s campaign? It was the only thing people were caught doing.
I personally liked Edwards because in his life he faced real tragedy and persevered while keeping his family together – not an easy task. I admire him for that.
Clinton is the preferred opponent because she is so polarizing. But Obama presents some real challenges for the Democratic Party. It will be a challenge to keep white male Democrats on the reservation – remember, they are asking those same voters to give up the franchise and it won’t be easy when they can bail and vote for McCain because of his bipartisanship credentials.
Ding.
State Senator, that is… Some subterfuge came up in her election too.
Thanks.
I re-learned a lesson – never do the crazy idea that gets brought up at the end of the election cycle. When somebody comes up with a hair-brained scheme the response should always be “Great! You do it.”
That, and ALWAYS get the legal opinion in writing.
There were plenty of other lessons too, which gets to why I wrote the book: mainly, sunlight is the best disinfectant (a Justice Brandeis quote).
Hi Allen, thank you very much for coming to talk with us.
Do you regret what you did?
You’re right. Interestingly, the same kind of conduct that is now roiling the NRCC.
Huh? Democratic white males? Like me?
What credentials?
As in the Ann Coulter types? They’re sycophants – but I’ve always thought that. If Sen. Clinton is the Democratic Party nominee I do hope Coulter is held to her word and leaves the GOP.
But I’m not a Republican anymore, I’m an unaffiliated voter. Conservatives are angry about McCain, but that’s their own fault. Frankly, where else are the going to go?
I was wondering if you might bring that up. In your book you describe a friend telling you that turning the laundering of soft into hard money into an Internet would be crazy. Of course, that was before McCain Feingold made it a lot harder to turn soft money into hard money.
Any chance this NRCC thing has to do with turning soft money into hard via matching Leadership/Campaign funds—all through Wachovia bank? Any idea what the problem was?
I would guess that if white Democratic males have a choice between a Republican candidate wanting endless wars and 100 years in Iraq, or voting for a black anti-war candidate, they’ll vote for the black anti-war candidate. JMHO.
Allan, how do you feel about the secrecy and illegalities of the Bush Admin.? What do you think should be done about it in the best interests of our country? For whom will you be voting in Nov.?
What makes you think white male D’s will falter at voting for Obama. My dad is a white male R and is all for Obama. The only way McCain wins this election is with more shenanigans…how do you feel about the will of the voters?
Not vote. Not work for the election of Rs. Seems like there’re many choices outside of voting for McCain.
She certainly brings an infrastrucutre that rivals W.’s of 2000. Interestingly, the NYPost endorsed Sen. Obama.
I agree that Clinton is the likely nominee, but Sen. Obama has run perhaps the best challenger primary campaign (if one accepts that Sen. Clinton has incumbent status in this contest) in the last 50 years (Reagan’s was pretty effective in 1976).
Oh, and another thought: did you ever consider yourself the lineal descendant of Donald Segretti? Did he ever cross your mind during all of this?
The passage from your book about using ‘black voices’ to call rednecks and hispanic voices to call union members was especially interesting. Evil, morally bankrupt, but interesting. I keep thinking that the repubs would rather go up against Obama. They get to try out all new material and we won’t be prepared for it.
Could you tell us about your biography – were you raised in the Republican party, education, past campaigns you’ve been affiliated since becoming a political activist/operative. Also interested in how you were able to pay what surely were considerable legal bills. Thanks for being here at the lake – I will ask my local library to get your book.
My wife is far stronger and smarter than me, no doubt.
The whole morality issue is important, but needs context. Running a campaign is not about morality (although one wants to occupy the moral high ground).
When the judge questioned my morality it was like he was speaking in Coptic. It also told me I was screwed. Morality is the domain of religion and not government, and it never should be the domain of government.
I do not consider ethics the same as morality. In campaigns the only beacon is the bright line of the law. And more often than not campaign managers look to go up to that edge but not cross it. That was my default setting, although it turned out I stepped over the line.
Allen – from your experience, did you come across good voter protection operations? We talk a lot here about the importance of people volunteering to serve at their precincts, etc to keep elections honest. Did you see examples of such working or could you suggest points in the process where voters can help in such practical ways?
I take this comment of yours as an indirect answer to my Q about whther you would rig elections again, only smarter.
Gender issues will make a significant appearance if Sen. Clinton is the nominee.
Bigotry will be present if Sen. Obama is the nominee. That was evident from President Clinton’s remarks about Rev. Jackson.
The Clinton campaign is toggling the gender issue now by using the “pimp” comments on MSNBC that were directed toward Ms. Clinton. The idea here is to slow down Sen. Obama with all women (but especially black women), and bring them back to her fold.
In the general election there will be some GOP leaning 527 that inserts race or gender into the contest.
I wonder if we would perhaps be safe in assuming that this is but the tip of the iceburg?
by dead horse, i meant john mccain and maybe nyp is wagging the dog. i also thinkthe american public could overwelm the rigging of this election by shear numbers.
I leave regret to others. I’m a bit more about the moment. It happened. I willfully accepted the consequences and paid a very heavy price. I’m a felon for life. You know when they say “This will go on your permanent record!” Well, usually it’s not true. But a felony is the one time it is true.
Good point. If one brick in the foundation is faulty that is cause to doubt all the bricks. But I can only speak to what I know.
Interesting that you would use precisely the same phrase–”stepped over the line”–that Monica Goodling did when admitting she had illegally used politics in hiring decisions at DOJ.
Would I do it again? No. But in the scenario where events would occur as they did but I could change one thing (other than getting the legal opinion in writing), I would have had the callers ask questions (e.g. what time do the polls close?, are you making rides to the polls available?, etc.”) and then perhaps it would not have been a criminal act.
A R talking point.
Did you ever have to take a “loyalty oath” or anything like that?
Be informed, but you know that. It’s the other half that needs to engage, the citizens who are not registered to vote, or the ones that are but don’t. I know everybody is busy. But understanding the process and treating it seriously is important. Voting is one place where a person can be completely selfish – maybe if people saw it that way they’d take it more seriously.
No. And if I did I broke it!
Did you ever run into Gannon at the WH?
What was Mehlman’s role?
LOL
In the first Republican contest of the day, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee defeated John McCain in Kansas.
One wonders if John McCain and/or Mr. Huckabee will continue the Nixon/Bush/Atwater legacy of “dirty tricks” should either individual be elected president. Mr. Rove is of course one of the prime variables perhaps.
I never met her.
But the law is a bright line. It is there to deter criminal behavior, sometimes it is not bright enough.
This will certainly be an interesting dimension, one way or the other.
You said: Gender issues will make a significant appearance if Sen. Clinton is the nominee. My view is that gender/ sexist issues have already made a huge appearance via MSM coverage.
However, what ever bigotry/ racial issues that play into this are much harder to assess, in my view. Something I’ve been mulling quite a bit. Seems to me that the sexist issues are pretty much out in the open (thanks MSM) because it is “okay” to use sexist and misogynist references. But, it’s not “okay” to speak in racist tones in the MSM, so this really is a hidden dimension right now. (btw, neither is “okay”- please don’t misinterpret what I am saying)
Allen,
Will you be working with other felons on both federal and state levels for re-enfranchisement?
Where did you get that phrase…”the law is a bright line”, or is that just your own thoughts on it? That’s an interesting description.
No. I never worked at the White House.
Mehlman was 2004 Bush/Cheney campaign manager, had beem WH political director, and was later RNC Chairman. As far as his role in the phone jamming I have no evidence he was at all involved.
But I worked at the RNC and know it is not a band of rogues. I know the process of how programs get approved and that was a factor in taking the work.
Oh, I see..I misunderstood. *g*
Mr. Allen, great honor to have you here.
Bottom line is that about half the electorate and most of K-Street subscribes to the notion that dirty tricks are okay. How to overcome that attitude? Public election financing for starters?
Fair enough. Though I can’t imagine you and she moving in the same crowds in the GOP. Of course, in her case, it’s a matter of a lawyer ignoring pretty clear laws at the direction of her boss…
Disclosure is always a great solution and they are required now. Legislating solutions can be dangerous. One man’s voter supression is another man’s voter integrity. There are First Amendment issues to be considered. Perhaps it is not new laws, but better policing and real prosecution. I have to think my penalty makes active campaign managers and consultants more cautious. It didn’t help that Pres. Bush commuted Mr. Libby’s sentence – it sent the absolutely wrong message (ironic for a law and order Administration).
Mr. Raymond — Do you have any comments you can share here about the DCI Group?
Remove the profit from electioneering. Result: cleaner government. It’s almost always about money, these days. It’s all so very tiresome and tedious.
Lucky for Bush, he won’t have to commute Tobin’s sentence–he can just pardon him right away as he leaves office–the timing works out better that way…
I think Sen. McCain deserves the benefit of the doubt, having been the target of so many reprehensible dirty tricks (perhaps the worst ever in 2000 attacking his daughter).
Huckabee’s campaign has already demonstated an ability to attract 527 assistance. As far as Lee Atwater, he was one of the best GOP operatvies of all time and some of his tricks must be as much admired as they are reviled.
But knowing this stuff occurs, and not just on the Republican side of the equation, is important to being able to discount those same tricks when mkaing a decision at the ballot box.
Excellent point. Politics is a COST PER CONTACT BUSINESS. It has master degrees and there is billions of dollars spent in presidential election years. Knowing it is a business begins to clarify why campaigns are executed as they are.
I just want to say thanks for accepting responsibility, writing the book, and even for showing up here today.
I agree that this nonsense occurs despite party affiliation (I saw it first hand in the Ned Lamont primary/general), but naively hope it will be rooted out as information flow increases, and when good men decide to tell the truth.
I hope you will continue to make amends, and appreciate your contribution in that regard.
Nobody with any ’say so’ wants public financing of elections. And the public is beginning to understand why. I’ve got to fix supper. Have fun folks.
I’m glad I never worked there. It is conspiracy-theory central. DCI is an excellent example of how much a business politics is.
Have you considered seeking a January 2009 pardon from the outgoing President?
how did you come to write the book?
and, why did you write the book?
and newspaper brat asked, and i would also like to know, some background about you, please.
Is there anything about the policies of the R party that attracted you to it, or is it just about the challenge of a campaign that attracts you & the Rs were the ones who happened to hire you?
I am of the opinion that Mr. Tobin will never serve a day in prison. Having myself been incarcerated, I think we incarcerate too many people (but that’s a whole othe topic).
But the RNC’s budget of $3 MM defending Mr. Tobin more or less guarantees he walks from the punishment, but he can’t hide from his conduct before and after the crime. That’s for him to settle with himself.
Mr. Raymond, first off thank you for appearing here. This is not necessarily home nor friendly turf; so my hat is off for standing in the batter’s box. That said, my question is what knowledge do you have of the money exchange/laundering operation of Chris Ward and the RNCC? How deep does it go into the formal party structure and what implications do you see it having both short and long term?
Really? When did the Democrats approve and execute election-day phone-jamming? Because I missed that….
Thank you for the reply. Interesting response, given James Tobin’s relationship to DCI.
Only if I feel like burning $25,000. No, it is not an option.
Who is Rove working for this cycle?
I do have to say, it took some guts for you to come so deep into Dem territory. I really did enjoy your book, for those who haven’t read it yet–and especially those considering a late winter vaca to somewhere sunny–it would make a great beach read.
Is $25K the going rate for pardons? How much did Scooter’s cost him do you imagine?
Teddy, Dems are not imune from campaign dirty tricks. In fact some of the worst I ‘ve seen has been during Dem primaries. We do love to eat our own.
Sadly
Fair enough.
But denying the Democratic Party has a history of voter intimidation and fraud isn’t productive either.
Fox News.
You’ve had 7yrs to witness what the repubs have done to this country. Ever feel any personal regret for supporting them? Or is it more of a game and you do what you need to do to win, without a thought that maybe what your working towards is destructive.
And yet, you wrote in your book (as quoted above): “The way I looked at it, I was an ethical guy running a clean business. We may do some morally questionable things, but nothing illegal.”
You’re right that there is a difference between whether something is “legal” and something is “right.” But I’ve never heard someone try to justify their actions as “ethical” by saying they chose “legal” over “right.” Usually it’s the other way around.
It sounds to me as if you’re simply trying to duck being called out by the judge as being someone who is lacking a moral compass.
Mr. Libby had the benefit of a legal defense fund. I think the starting retainer for a pardon is upward of $15,000.
How did you know I am flying to Costa Rica and the beaches next week? *g*
Of course Scoots didn’t get the whole pardon—just a main course off the ala carte menu. Might have gotten a break.
Libby also had the benefit having the goods on both the President and VP–I imagine pardons and commutations get a lot cheaper when you’re in that position.
Which is probably why Tobin will never see jail time, either.
maybe you need to wait and apply to barack or hillary, they might appreciate your ’coming clean’.
might be money better spent by waiting.
and by then you might have the money from book sales.
no snark intended.
Allen, do you think that in the last 7 years the country has been moving in the right direction? I guess I’m asking solai’s question. do you feel badly at all about what the Republicans have done?
It seemed odd to me then, as it does not, that a judge wold use morality as a factor at a plea hearing. Perhaps at a sentencing hearing, that I get. But then again, landlord tenant courts could be accused of doing immoral things everyday. But to the point, for me politics is not about morality. Policy can and should be, but politics is a means to an end.
Ding. Notice also his answer to my Q. He’d do it all again, if he could find a trick to make it “legal.”
Scooter got a tantric pardon: commutation keeps him quiet until 1/20/09 when the Happy Ending arrives.
i meant applying for a pardon, in my 115
Are you totally cynical about american politics or do you think that there are still some sincere people trying to get elected honestly in order to benefit the country- like in the story books?
So what difference does it make, then, whether you run an “ethical shop” or not? If the ends justify the means in politics, why worry about ethics?
Uhmmm. Did you come to this conclusion before or after you started working for the REPUBLICAN campaigns?!!! Although, I’ll grudgingly agree that the judge mis-spoke and should have questioned your ethics. Legislating morality may not be a good idea, but pretending that morals have no place in government is just silly. Taken to its logical extreme, that idea abrogates any need for any government at all. Certainly nothing resembling a democracy or representative republic. Without some sort of moral framework, applied in good faith, government quickly deterioriates into Might and Money make Right and the most Agressive and Obnoxious win. Oh…oops…why does that sound like something I’ve lived through recently?
FunnyDiva
As I said, regrets are for others. I’m not here, not would I ever, defend the Republican Party. Having said that, the GOP legislative majority did some productive things. All parties have their scandals when they are in the majority.
As far as the Bush Administration, it is a total failure and these days reminds me of a wounded animal slinking off looking for a cool, shady place to die. But I never had a hand in electing George W. Bush, so my conscience is clean.
That is inaccurate. Look to my previous post and lighten up, please.
Evening, all. Sir, heard your interview on Democracy Now! Very good. Thank you for being with us here today.
If you would indulge us in a brief history lesson, what do you think are the best/worst/most effective dirty tricks ever?
Please name your three favorites.
Ethics in business would seem to apply to delivering goods and services at the agreed price.
I’m having a hard time being polite. You were not running a clean business and you were definitely not ethical. And, you can’t even claim that the ends justified the means. You helped put in to power the worst president that this country has ever had. He has destroyed our constitution, bankrupted us and started an illegal war that will have repercussions for generations. That you can be glib offends me.
That’s a mighty narrow definition of ethics. Certainly the kind of goods and services under discussion would have an ethical component, don’t you think?
BCRA (although money in politics is like water, it will always find a way and should as long as $=free speech).
Paygo legislation
Welfare Reform
***Ding!***
Not to mention the so-called “morality” that the Republican Party has been trying to legislate and force on everyone else for the past [infinite] number of years.
I have to say, Allen, that reading your book has left me feeing more than a little empty. Politics, whether Mr or Mrs Citizen pay a lot or a little attention, affects our lives in every way and is not just a game to most of us, as it seems to be to you and your colleagues. The book confirms my worst feelings about Republicans.
Your reasons for getting into politics(keeping up with your family, your trust-fund outlook)are shallow and amoral and, frankly, I think your wife could do a lot better.
I would like to know the answer to that, too
Mr. Raymond, since you declined to answer my question regarding Mr. Ward and the RNCC matter; let me move to another area of inquiry. The former governor of Alabama, Siegelman, has been convicted and imprisoned for corruption violations involving conduct identical to that occasioned by Senator Jeff Sessions, who was not even investigated. There was clearly evidence of unequal treatment in your general matter; what similarities, if any, do you see between your case and that of Siegelman, and how do you explain such a fundamental application of equal protection and treatment?
Great discussion. Thanks for bearing up under the questions.
In your opinion, is Rove legal, moral, and ethical in how he conducts political campaigns?
The GOP congress did worthwhile things? I’m forgetting what.
The Framers designed a great system, so I’m optimistic. There will alwasy be some bad actors, but the system will endure.
What worries me most is best summed up by Thomas Paine. With the potential for a Clinton as the nominee (and a Bush waiting for 2012), I worry that the law may lose it’s role as king, and that the King may again become law. Too much power over such a concentrated amount of time runs the risk of law bending to the whims of a few.
They always started ON TIME.
I share your concern. Thanks for voicing it.
So does that mean you have problems with the Bush unitary executive theory?
In what ways is our current King subject to law, do you think? Surely not any laws Congress has made for him to follow. Ask the King if you do not believe me.
Easy to do when you work Tuesday PM to Thursday PM.
But yeah–timeliness is definitely something the Dems need some schooling on.
Lucky for me your opinion doesn’t count!
Did the WH in any way attempt to vet your book?
Allen thank you for coming to the Lake and spending time with us.
My apologioes, I missed the Q on Mr. Ward. I’ll go look and try to answer.
I am not that well informed on Gov. Siegelman’s case, but did see he got an absurdly long sentence.
Thank you all for your time. I enjopyed the process. Great site with mostly a terrific group of users. Thanks!
Of course it doesn’t. But I can guarantee I won’t be recommending this book to others.
Allen
Thanks for joining us–it was an interesting discussion.
Directly to my point. Thanks!
Thank you Mr. Raymond for coming here.
Sorry….Jeb will never, ever get elected president…remember: 9/11 happened under Bush’s watch, Katrina happened under Bush’s watch, two wars (one illegal)so far..happened on Bush’s watch, Habeas Corpus, Torture, Domestic Spying….all under Bush’s watch….
Another Bush?? Bwahahahahaha…They would have to steal an election…
Oh, yeah…hadn’t thought about that….
ROFL!!!
Thanks for dropping by and engaging in this discussion. My eyes have been opened and my prejudices confirmed.
Mommybrain’s opinion doesn’t count? Showing your Repub underwear. Everyone’s opinions count, maybe they don’t pay your salary, but they count.
Just one more question:
How do you explain the willingness of congress to go down without a fight in the battle for power against the king?
Thank you for coming Allen…good luck with your book, and thanks for writing it!!
Heh, heh, heh…ehhmm…sorry…
Thank you Allen for showing up for this. It’s been quite interesting.
The book started as a vindictive rant. What I hope it to be is a public service. By revealing how campaigns are run, how voters are led by the nose to the polls by using emotion (as well as dirty tricks), perhaps those same voters are better armed to wade through the election process and come away making the decision that is their best interest.
Don’t laugh too hard, Jeb Bush is still young for politics.
I don’t know why the GOP majority lined up at the Bush WH service entrance and then so willingly gave away their majority. But they got what they deserved.
It was at 99 and read as follows:
Thank you in advance for any response you are willing to offer.
They don’t count at my house!
Keep telling yourself that.
Now you see. Good bye and thanks!
See, here at the Lake, I knew I didn’t mean to mention it, though it really was the point of the comment.
Oh, and on the “well…the Democrats do/have done dirty tricks and intimidation, too…” issue, let me paraphrase Dr. Maryam: Stop telling yourself lies. No, not that the Dems don’t also have a history of hardball or even dirty campaigning. I missed most of the 60’s and grew up on the Left Coast, and even I know what “Chicago style politics” means.
No, the lie is that all dirty tricks and dirty tricksters are equivalent. That because there is no difference in kind that there is also no difference in degree. That if the other side does it, it’s not as reprehensible and revolting when your side does it better.
That said, thank you for writing about your experience and for being here at FDL today. Being a felon is hardly a badge of honor, but when the authorities came knocking you did the right thing and took it on the chin. You took your punishment like a good, law-abiding American, and that I can, and do, respect.
FunnyDiva
I did promise a reply to this one. I don’t know where it goes, I’m not plugged in as I once was. But it spells serious trouble and likely leads to an FBI investigation and a DoJ prosecution. It also could lead to a lot of NRCC business being aired publicly if Mr. Ward mounts a defense – not something House Republicans are eager to see I’m sure.
Thank you so much for coming here today. It’s been a great book salon.
Thank you for that. I again salute your willingness to engage here; best of luck.
Um, wrongdoings should be investigated and brought to justice regardless of the political party of origin. (Duh.) The excuse that Ds did it so it’s OK that Rs do it, or that everyone does it so let’s not talk about it, is amoral rationalization of the basest sort.
re:160 that said:
”
The book started as a vindictive rant. What I hope it to be is a public service. By revealing how campaigns are run, how voters are led by the nose to the polls by using emotion (as well as dirty tricks), perhaps those same voters are better armed to wade through the election process and come away making the decision that is their best interest.”
started as a vindictive rant, that’s healthy, then turned into something else, that’s healthy………what you said here almost sounds ethical and moral………..things you kept trying to not claim throughout this thread……..
good.
may you continue on a healthy road of rehab……….into becoming a moral, ethical human being.
if you become that, then you don’t ever have to worry about what is legal.
thanks for coming, i’ll read your book.
Well yes they did- but neither sides of the aisle seem much interested in fighting the Bush claims of executive power exceeding congress and the courts…They’re takin a dive in a heavyweight match.
As usual, we’re on the same page, eCAHN. Though I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to start investigating and bringing to justice the fetid, steaming shit-pile that is the W administration and its NeoCon architects and enablers! IOW, let’s go after the biggest, most obvious stinky messes first!
FunnyD
Ding.
Wonder why I got the only rise out of Raymond (see his 125). Perhaps because I used his own words to condemn him? He is really blind to the influence of the kind of work he did, and has figured out a way to mollycoddle himself. Does not like when someone sees thru it.
Don’t find his mea culpa convincing in the slightest.
Nah, I think Mommybrain got to him a bit as well. And he really did have no real response to the ethics questions. He was just tap dancing as fast as he could on them.
Hmmm…Allen’s answer 166 to my 153…seems to confirm my thoughts…Jeb 2012 by a rig.
Or am I imagining that?
Yep, that too. Sorry for being egocentric. Surprising how “reformed” Rs are not any more appealing than other Rs.
And notice how he did not answer any Qs about his background or what he found appealing about the policies of the R party. Interesting ommission.
OT
Defense of neocons going on on CPSAN2.
This is a very important point. A lot of white voters will vote for Sen. Obama to put the issue of race – a factor in American politics since Day 1 – behind the nation. And if Sen. Obama can avoid being defined as the “black” candidate (Pres. Clinton took a go at it – his legacy deserves to be the former president that essentially said America shouldn’t elect a black man to the Oval Office), then he has tremendous prospects. But remember that not all white males are alike, just as not all of any voter segment are alike. But I understand what you’re saying. I also see the appeal of it as a repudiation of the worst policies of the Bush Adminstration.
No, I answered the ethics questions fully. They may just not be the answers you want.
As I say in the book, I could have worked for either party. For me it was about the competition. I entered politics with no illusions and left completely disillusioned.
Your answer showed that you have no understanding of what “ethics” means. Maybe you should follow your wife and when she disapproves of something, not do it, as she seems to have a far more balanced moral compass.
As the book is not a mea cupla it is fitting you did not find it convincing.
How is it that you were allowed to write this book? I thought there was a law that felons could not profit from their crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Sam_laws
This might be helpful to you since you asked.
Read it. Thank you.
I was evaluating what you said in this thread as a mea culpa, not the book.
WRT “doing it again” I asked if you would so it smarter. You repsonded that you should have asked Qs about voting hours & getting to the polls. That’s just an excuse for passing a narrow “legal” test, which people here do not generally think passes the ethical smell test. Voter suppression is voter suppression, even if you can figure out a way of getting around it legally. Your legal “bright line” implies an unethical distinction surrounding figuring out what is not yet illegal.
Are we the only 2 left? So, tell me. How bad are the racial attacks going to be?
guess he left. You still here e?
Think Raymond comes back to respond while involved in other activities. But that’s just a guess.
Ah, if you are still around Mr. Raymond, I have kind of a corollary to a decent question @190. Mine is this: Of the two remaining Democratic candidates, which do you think will be easier to vilify for the GOP attack machine in the general election? I certainly don’t mean to imply that the Dems don’t have an attack machine of their own, but my question here only pertains to the GOP because the GOP candidate appears determined and the Dem is not yet. My personal impression is not necessarily in the majority here. While I think there may be more grounds for attack on Clinton, I think there is a lot better chance of it making a significant dent on Obama under the totality of the circumstances. What do you think and why?
I did, but in context of then, not now.
Clinton is so polarizing that the trick is getting the full utility of her polarizing persona.
Obama is difficult for all the reasons that cowed Pres. Clinton. But the bigots will be out in force.
These (morals, ehtics, law) are three very different measures. So when discussing them like this it is very much like mixing apples and asteriods with firetrucks. But I see what you’re saying. Having said that, I never plead guilty to being unethical or immoral.
and please excuse the typos and misspellings. I was trying to answer as much as I could as fast as possible.
Not PLEADING guilty is not the same as not being guilty.
I’m actually not interested in your particular case (sorry about that), but rather how people on your side think. That’s the context in which I find your remarks so revealing.
Fair enough, which is why I wrote the book. But your comments indicated otherwise so perhaps the time alloted for the dialoigue was wasted.
The professionals on both sides more or less think alike, the difference being the targets and the resources.
So your judgement is that Rs and Ds are morally (or ethically or legally) equivalent
Allen, thanks for sticking around. I am interested in your Clinton v Obama comments. I responded above:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02…..nt-1262086
If you have time, I’d like to get your reaction to that comment.
On the issue of sexism: I was fascinated to watch the attempt to malign Pres. Bhutto with the claim that she died by hitting her head and not by an assasin’s bullet and bomb. And agreed, the Clinton campaign was smart to seize on the Chelsea pimping comment. However, the reason Shuster was suspended was because he inserted himself into the contest, not because he said a dumb thing (not the stated reason, this is my opinion).
Pres. Clinton’s attempt to insert race into the campaign was also met with derision, triggering a Sen. Kennedy endorsement of Sen. Obama and Pres. Clinton going quiet.
But the stuff I’m talking about, the dirty tricks, happen covertly and some tactics may never get revealed.
There’s a lot of power and money at stake and this isn’t a pillow fight. That’s not to justify any of it, but it is said to shine a light on the process so when it happens it cannot be dismissed as roguish behavoir.
So reveal away! If not you, who?
Nor, let it be said, could it be called legal, moral, or (drum roll, please) ethical.
One simple definition of ethics, brought home by my kindergartener, is “doing the right thing, even when no one is looking.” I’d say my kid has a pretty good grasp of the concept.
Allen- thanks for your response to my comment above. Actually, I was not even thinking about the Shuster episode- rather, this is an issue that I have been thinking about well before that- maybe the Shuster episode takes this to a whole new level (duh!). It’s just that there seems to have been an “acceptable” level of sexism and misogyny in MSM coverage of Clinton, whereas the level of bigotry/ racism (hidden) re: Obama is an unknown factor in how this will play out.
more unfortunate is that the world isn’t one big kindergarten. And if it were it would be an awefully boring place.
as to ethics in business (political consulting or any other), living by contracts and agreements and treating customers, clients and employees fairly is the only litmus test.
What makes you think that “contracts” are something other than business’s way of making sure they are legally home-free for illegal behaviors? Corps & pols have huge power & can easily use it to get others to sign contracts that are not in their own self-interest. Power is a factor in influencing the outcome that “markets” don’t work.
I reject the premise that contracts are solely entered into to allow illegal conduct after the fact. Perhaps you could restate, as I may not be understanding your premise.
Not “soley,” but you can’t reject the notion that the legal system is a powerful support for the powerful. You admitted that SCOTUS was in W’s pocket in the 00 election.
Here at FDL we are interested in how the unpowerful (majorities, like labor, or minorities like gays) can exercise their rights. We are not enthused about a legal system that supports the power of the rich & famous.
That is perhaps the greatest gulf between your argument that “legal is ethical” and what we consider to be fair.
Allen- I think you responded to the wrong comment on that one!
Suppose someone proposed a contract to interfere in a publicly sanctioned election, and a second party agreed to fulfill that contract. The second party successfully abused the electoral process, the first party paid the second party, and everyone went home happy.
The customer is happy, the client is happy, and the employees are happy.
Oh, wait a minute . . . it was illegal.
But that’s all right — as long as the contract was fulfilled, it was ethical and peachy-keen. Right? Never mind what that pesky judge said.
Allen, I’m a pastor, and in my professional opinion, you need to do some serious thinking about the difference between legal, ethical, and moral.
Mr. Raymond, you have been a sport about all of this today. I would simply like to point out something I think you have already realized by the sheer fact that you still linger and engage. Namely, that despite some latent hostility from the locals (hey, what can I say, we do actually have a lot, and a lot of valid, grievances both as citizens and liberal/progressives), you have been treated by and large with respect and engaged on the merits by pretty much everyone here, even the ones with a little steam coming out of their ears. I don’t believe this would have been the case with the group that would nominally, presumptively, be your party, i.e. conservatives/Republicans. I am not sure how big of a bloodbath such an alternate encounter would be, maybe big, maybe moderate; but it would not be anything like you have seen here. I am not trying, nor arguing, to change your stripes; simply to point out what I think is a difference and to hope that you might pass it on to friends and family.
Um, I think Raymond admitted to working for Rs because they hired him. Don’t think we should conclude he’s in synch with them. As I interpret his responses, it’s more about adrenalin than about right & wrong. And perhaps that’s why he is still hanging out here. Perhaps he could tell us for sure.
As a former sky diver & rock climber, I understand the adrendalin-junkie phenomenon.
hi bmaz- thanks for that comment- and, Allen, I would ditto what bmaz says.
It is difficult to converse with you (peterr) because you are so certain about your point of view.
To your point, the “contract” between my company and my client was not drawn to allow for illegal conduct. The illegal conduct was the result, followed by a prosecution. Again, I conducted my business most ethically; one mistake does not mean I am unethical or immoral (or anybody else who makes a mistake).
I’ve made amends to the court and paid the price demanded of me and don’t need to answer any more for the infraction. To insist I do is unforgiving, particualtly from a pastor.
As to the receptiopn here (bmaz) it was very good other than one or two exceptions. I did come back this morning as a courtesy to see if there were any other questions or comments that also requested a response.
As to a system that favors the rich and powerful, I agree that is the worst enemy. I felt I did more over ten years by feeding the homeless as a volunteer and as a trustee of a charitable foundation helpng low income families in Brooklyn, NY than I did working in politics. Perhaps that is instructive as to where real impact can be had.
Two works that I have found very instructive on this topic and refer to often are Common Sense and the Federalist Papers. Both address all the reasons that make me as apprehensive about another Clinton presidency as I was about a second Bush presidency (much less the potential of a third four years from now).
My concern that you don’t seem to understand the difference between what is legal, moral, and ethical has nothing to do with you making amends and paying the price demanded of you by the court. My insisting that you try to look at this has nothing to do with forgiveness.
It has to do with you perpetuating a mentality that in politics, whatever is legal is moral and that whatever is not illegal is ethical.
That’s what bothers me. And yes, I’m pretty certain in my opposition to such a viewpoint.
Thanks for coming to chat, and for coming back to reply.
Allen -
Indeed, thanks for the many candid answers. There are still a lot of stories to be told. If you’re still checking in, was the consultant (and former business partner) you mentioned Jim Dyke? He seems like someone who’s in your former line of work. I could also guess Jason Torchinsky or Ken Vogel but I think they would have been involved regardless because they either work with or are married to Jill. Still, I wonder why she ran for state senate in Virginia — the $$ from the GOP must be drying up!
Hope to talk with you again… Doing C-SPAN during your book tour?