"All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today....It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture."
Who we are as a nation is defined by what we do. And what the Bush Administration has been doing in all of our names is against the law.
Last weekend, the WSJ had an entertainment piece on "24," regarding the necessity of revamping the show's image in the wake of sagging ratings from a swift turn in public opinion. This, in particular, caught my eye:
"For five years, this was a wish fulfillment show," Mr. Gordon said. "At the beginning, when everybody's fear was more acute, people's tolerance for violence, their own rage, seemed to make Jack's tactics more acceptable. But in the wake of our own abuses in prosecuting this so-called War on Terror, we feel Jack is getting a bum rap. So instead of selling out the entire show and its history and its legacy and apologizing for it and ultimately invalidating it, we decided to defend it."
It was as if they were defending the show itself from charges that it was reckless and partisan. Ms. Walden says she accepted it immediately, and other Fox executives followed suit.
"You can take the position that it is basically reflecting what's going on in the Beltway right now," said Mr. Liguori. "I could look at it and say basically it's the show that's on trial."
On so many levels, this is appalling post-hoc rationalization crap. Or would be if the show hadn't been used for PR agenda purposes by Bush Administration policy advisors to Antonin Scalia and beyond to sell the ticking time bomb torture scenario to a public scared shitless by terror warnings and scary pronouncements of impending mushroom clouds that weren't.
The fiction of the show and WH policy foundations melded into a public sales job. Jane Mayer was absolutely right -- the "whatever it takes" mentality was being sold to the masses.
But the costs for doing so are high - and they apply to us all:
Of course, the costs to the United States are much more than financial: more significant are the moral, legal, diplomatic and political consequences of holding hundreds of prisoners in arbitrary and indefinite detention. At the heart of American values is the principle of habeas corpus, which demands due process and fair trials before an independent judiciary. The United States' system of detention and trial at Guantánamo has, for the past six years, betrayed that principle and undermined this country's historical position as an international champion of human rights and civil liberties.
Attorney General Mukasey is scheduled to answer some questions today before the House Judiciary Committee beginning at 11 am ET. Emptywheel will be following the hearing live, while I keep an eye on the Senate floor for FISA machinations. Given the admissions in recent days to waterboarding, deliberate tape destruction, and more secret prisons, it should be an interesting dodge and phony show kinda day. The President does not get to make up the laws as he goes -- and it is high time that Congress reminded him of that fact. In no uncertain terms.
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Hey Christy!
I have only one question for candiate McCain: “If elected, will you prosecute your predecessor for his war crimes?”
Hi Christry. Bushco keeping you busy?
I have the House Judiciary listed for Mukasey at 10 AM what happened?
While I’ll be happy when we’ve seen that last of this lawless administration, I’m just dreading the time after that when we’re trying to pressure some other authoritarian government on torture, and they come back with the Bushies’ “we have determined that it is not illegal in our country, therefore it is not torture.”
Reading WSJ editorials would raise my blood pressure to dangerous levels. I swore off it several decades ago.
Morning all. The thought that “24″ was a “wish fulfillment show” says an awful lot about the bread and circuses level to which we have sunk the last few years, doesn’t it? Blergh…
There was a time change on the hearing — and it’s supposed to be HJC not SJC — my typo. Will fix that…
I keep wondering how many times that has already come up. I’m quite certain that Condi Rice has had some lovely rejoinders, aren’t you?
I wonder if it was on 9/11 that Jack Bauer replaced Jesus as Bush’s favorite political philosopher.
Good morning Christy! I think that the fact that the writers of 24 have to find a way to back away from torture because ratings are dropping is pathetic as well as a great example of blowback.
Also, sort of on-topic: Senator Feingold is strongly recommending that both Dems start talking specifics if they want to win over voters in Wisconsin, especially when it comes to trade policies and civil liberties issues. We may be friendly up here, but we’re not pushovers…
http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/271406
Update:
Excellent post, Christy. Here is what the real experts/professionals think of waterboarding- this letter was sent to Leahy & Specter last Nov. during the Mukasey hearing:
Urgent: Letter from Intelligence, Military, Diplomatic, and Law Enforcement Professionals
A listing of those who drafted & sent this- Some very familiar names here:
(Official duties refer to former government work.)
Brent Cavan
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
Ray Close
Directorate of Operations, CIA for 26 years—22 of them overseas; former Chief of Station, Saudi Arabia
Ed Costello
Counter-espionage, FBI
Michael Dennehy
Supervisory Special Agent for 32 years, FBI; U.S. Marine Corps for three years
Rosemary Dew
Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI
Philip Giraldi
Operations officer and counter-terrorist specialist, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Michael Grimaldi
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; Federal law enforcement officer
Mel Goodman
Division Chief, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; Professor, National Defense University; Senior Fellow, Center for International Policy
Larry Johnson
Intelligence analysis and operations officer, CIA; Deputy Director, Office of Counter Terrorism, Department of State
Richard Kovar
Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director for Intelligence, CIA: Editor, Studies In Intelligence
Charlotte Lang
Supervisory Special Agent, FBI
W. Patrick Lang
U.S. Army Colonel, Special Forces, Vietnam; Professor, U.S. Military Academy, West Point; Defense Intelligence Officer for Middle East, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA); founding director, Defense HUMINT Service
Lynne Larkin
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA; counterintelligence; coordination among intelligence and crime prevention agencies; CIA policy coordination staff ensuring adherence to law in operations
Steve Lee
Intelligence Analyst for terrorism, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
Jon S. Lipsky
Supervisory Special Agent, FBI
David MacMichael
Senior Estimates Officer, National Intelligence Council, CIA; History professor; Veteran, U.S. Marines (Korea)
Tom Maertens
Foreign Service Officer and Intelligence Analyst, Department of State; Deputy Coordinator for Counter-terrorism, Department of State; National Security Council (NSC) Director for Non-Proliferation
James Marcinkowski
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA by way of U.S. Navy
Mary McCarthy
National Intelligence Officer for Warning; Senior Director for Intelligence Programs, National Security Council
Ray McGovern
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; morning briefer, The President’s Daily Brief; chair of National Intelligence Estimates; Co-founder, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
Sam Provance
U.S. Army Intelligence Analyst, Germany and Iraq (Abu Ghraib); Whistleblower
Coleen Rowley
Special Agent and attorney, FBI; Whistleblower on the negligence that facilitated the attacks of 9/11.
Joseph Wilson
Foreign Service Officer, U.S. Ambassador and Director of Africa, National Security Council.
Valerie Plame Wilson
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations
Common Article 3 of the Geneva conventions prohibits “cruel treatment and torture” of detainees, and the War Crimes Act of 1996 make violation of Common Article 3 a federal crime. So the administration’s attempts to play Humpty Dumpty games with the word “torture” simply won’t work:
Christy,
does it point to a hopeful moment that the tide has turned far enough that the rejection of this is reflecting back at the Beltway?
Yes, that argument will be made in the future by other rogue regimes practicing torture. That is why we must hold those who initiated and implemented these reprehensible crimes accountable. Then, we can say in answer to future rogue regimes, “Yes, tragically we went down that road, but upon learning of it we punished those responsible and took measures to prevent it from happening again.”
Good luck
I’ve got C-Span2 on at the moment. Chertoff just finished speaking about DHS priorities and some spokesperson is going on about budget priorities. Here’s a word for you: Katrina. Oh wait, that hasn’t been a priority today…go figure.
OT. Did we ever hear what the deal was with that national ID Chertoff announced? Did it just go away?
Like the FISA fight the admin position is untenable. The only issue is whether they get held accountable for criminal behavior. Torture is going to require blanket pardons, since both R and D president candidates will probably not impede real discovery.
Bushco have perfected the art of standing pat until outrage dissipates.
Whatever the crime is as long as they stymie and stonewall long enough they end up being able to admit doing what they had denied and denied.
Having a pack of gutless stooges as opposition helps alot too.
-G
Christy that was excellent!
We have now lived through almost 8 years of neocon Bushism that has changed America fundamentally, at it’s core. There is a whole generation of kids under 12 who have grown up immersed in this ugly, greedy culture that’s been cultivated by the Bushite mindset.
This horrific mindset has got to be changed.
We have got to bring these criminals to justice if for no other reason than to teach the children who have been molded under the Bush regime that this behavior will not be tolerated by moral society.
From the LATimes story that I link above:
Well, thanks, Tony. I’m sure that’s very helpful to Sens. Graham and McCain to know that the WH doesn’t give a rats ass about any promises they may have made to them. Can we expect any pushback on this? Hmmm? Oh, I thought not…
Heck, Mardi Gras is over so why bother about NOLA.
I went to the McCain rally on Sunday.
THAT was torture!
It isn’t just 24, the violence level is uniformly higher. Look at Criminal Minds. The violence is pornographic, with Silence of the Lamb type torture and killing. CSI Miami has a lot of the same elements, beautiful scenes of Miami in jewel-tones, and similar shots of killings and autopsies. It’s everywhere.
There’s been a big intergovernmental squabble on it, and it’s sort of disapparated until 2009. Or at least, I think it has…am still trying to track down actual details as opposed to the sketchy bits and pieces on how that got thrown out there without any funding, any authorization, or any regard for states rights considerations, among a number of other legal issues.
IMHO, congressmen become liable under the doctrine of “command responsibility” and international law if they do not now act to stop Bush from his announced intention to commit further war crimes (under certain cirsumstances). Per this morning’s LA Times:
Per the Wikipedia:
OT, but related. Words being tortured at the WaPo. I have bolded the ones that will be useful for our daily dealing with the Village # 17s.
Throw in the despicable cretins that populate the stab in the back meanie fests that are reality shows and you realize that America is pretty decadent shell of a republic.
-G
From the previous thread:
The reason DNI McConnell brought up the Al Qaeda thing along with waterboarding wasn’t to argue for the effectiveness or value of waterboarding as a
tortureinterrogation technique, it was all simply part of the regular spiel to push Congress to give telecoms immunity. In that context it is valuable because the Congress goes for it every single time.Thanks.
Christy,
I posted info about supporting free mammagrams this am chez attaturk I think, about 8:30 and sent it to the site @xmail.com address. I think the subject came up on one of your threads. yea I could look it up, but I am infringing on the no blog during work rule already.
Consider this exhibit A as to why I watch very little “entertainment” television these days. And why our house is covered in books.
*driveby* So basically, “24″ is defending the shock doctrine and bringing it to the masses. I suppose the show doesn’t have victims like Gail Kastner and even Jose Padilla.
That has always been my question. We are signatories to international conventions and treaties outlawing torture. Very specific government officials have been shown to have ordered or condoned using torture against prisoners, some of who’s detention itself may constitute an international crime. Will the International World Court at some point in the future hold these individuals responsible for their illegal actions and issue indictments. Will WE then be held responsible if these individuals are not apprehended and turned over to the World Court much like Serbia is under sanctions for not turning over the Officials and Military Officers responsible for the war crimes committed during that war? My fondest fantasy is for chimpy and Cheney and Rummy to be playing golf at some exclusive, rich people golf club outside the United States some day and guys in black pop up outta the bushes and “rendition” them and they appear before the World Court to answer for the minimum hundreds of thousands of deaths they are DIRECTLY responsible for. Call me a dreamer.
Yep, I had to have a mammogram yesterday — potential lump issue, likely nothing, will know in a coupla days. Think I reminded folks to get theirs regularly and folks were talking about free mammo possibilities. Thanks for posting the info.
This is why I order Buffy the Vampire Slayer DVDs.
Congress WILL respond, but in the incorrect and most damaging manner possible. They will respond by passing legislation specifically banning waterboarding, calling it torture. From that moment Bush and his minions of torturers are fully protected from prosecution. Why? Because, as they have done all along, they will “correctly” state that it couldn’t be illegal BEFORE Congress passes a law making it illegal (ex post facto). They will also be able to argue their nonsense about waterboarding being in a grey area, not really clear that it is torture, and since it took an act of Congress to clear up that grey area, we can’t be held responsible for doing what we did.
Congress is going to produce another bit of legislation that gives immunity and cover to Bush and his monsters. AGAIN!
Mr. ReddHedd and I were just saying the other day that we miss the snarky days of Buffy and the excellent scripting therein…
Thankyou. I will get a fresh cup of tea and be ready to yell.
and not only on fox - npr got into the act too, in april 2002… don’t have the link handy, but there was a horrible pro-torture oped piece.
Senate starting with morning business for 60 minutes to start — Reid talking about stimulus package and potentially finishing FISA today and/or tomorrow.
OT - in case there is an interest, and my comment yesterday morning was missed… the weekly congressional hearings list is back from vacation (of course, last minute changes are likely to be missed, but at least you will have direct links to the appropriate committee schedule webpage).
When the strike is settled (might be soon!), you can look forward to DollHouse, Joss Whedon & ME’s next tv project, set to star Eliza Dushku.
Going in to work now. Read you all later.
Oh see now you got me. Hope all is well on the health side.
No genre deals so well with identity issues, gender or otherwise, under cover than Sci-Fi/Fantasy IMHO.
I think there have always been fictional movies about cops, etc. who step beyond the law, or stretch it to the extreme, like Dirty Harry,etc. But, who could have imagined that we would ever have a president who would actually draw inspiration from them. I wish somebody had shown him 3 Stooges movies instead, so he would have learned to backhand Cheney and fork Rumsfeld in the eyes.
McConnell sez Iran is trying to produce “fissile material” wihtout noting that is perfectly legal under NPT (to which Iran, but not Israel nor Inida are signatories), and without noting that enrichment for fuel is much easier & lower level than enriching for bombs.
Oh why do we bother.
(((christy)))
Buffy’s “bad girl” rocks.
Okay, just made myself a nice pot of darjeeling, and settling in with a cuppa for a very stimulating Quorum Call on the Senate floor. Looks like it will be a slowish morning thus far…
That’s a tough one. Several countries, e.g., Germany, adhere to the doctrine of “universal jurisdiction” for crimes against humanity, so for instance if Rumsfeld sets foot in Germany, he might be arrested and tried.
Also, the (Republican sponsored) War Crimes Act of 1996, make most war crimes into federal crimes that can be prosecuted in federal courts. (The MCA attempted to gut the War Crimes Act, but so far as I know there’s question as to how well it succeeded.)
Finally, there’s the Jesse Helm’s American Service-members Protection Act of 2002. Per the Wikipedia:
McConnell sez Taliban attacks in Afghanistan increased in 07 because Nato was more vigorous in military actions.
He then tried to sell us the Brooklyn Bridge.
These guys just can’t *get off* Iran.
McConnell sez Hamas “seized control” of Gaza last spring.
Now that the wingnut e-mails have subsided, support is pouring in to town hall in Brattleboro, Vermont for their proposal to issue arrest warrants for Pres. Bush and Vice Pres. Cheney
I have to say, the lovely classical music interludes on C-Span sound ever so nice on Mr. ReddHedd’s new Bose speaker system for the big screen tv. And then it gets interrupted by Sen. Corker. sigh…on the stimulus package
but the bottom line, and the real story which is hardly reported is the fact that the “whatever it takes” scenario is a lie
there is more, better, more actionable information when we don’t torture, it does not get us information we can use, and whatever it gets us is less then if we used the other method
NOW HERE IS THE BIG THING;
it creates more enemies, galvanized against us, in a vile hatred, wanting to attack us with more terrorism
THAT’S what these fools don’t want to mention
But the surge is supposedly “working”? The wingnuts make no sense: Nato action , bad. US action good? *shaking head*
*Waving*
Maybe if they could just “get off,” the U.S. might have a more sensible foreign policy.
Yes, that is correct. When we fail to rig an election to our satisfaction the other side has technically “seized control”
forgot to sum up but here it is
when we claim we are torturing people to protect us against an attack, what we have really done is insure there are more people that will plan an attack
I would not want to hear Cornyn on a big speakers either.
That should have come with a spew warning. *g*
Hopefully the Ds will “seize control” of the U.S. prez in November.
mmm, hmmm *waving back*
I do wish they would tell us what the darn music is.
This tone-of-voice thing on blogs is soooo difficult.
Oh why do I always miss the innuendo. Okay.
How about Holy Mr. Non superdelegate Joe on big speakers?
fyi - as some of you who followed emptywheel’s live blogging of the senate FISA debate earlier this week know, i’m having great fun with my new c-span cable tv feed and take requests for quick youtube clips when i am recording (as i am for the senate today).
I want to add something more;
when we torture a person, we not only galvanize that person against us, there are more
exponentially more
every friend, every relative, and all the friedns of friends and friends of relatives
they all become our enemies, willing to do whatever it takes to exact a price for torturing their son, daughter, father, husband, friend
Sorry about the blockquote. Link to story here.
Note to self: u know link, not blockquotes.
Isn’t that part of the program? If U.S. didn’t have plenty of enemies, Rs couldn’t scare us to death & thus get elected.
Sooner would be better.
Me, too — I keep hoping they’ll put together some sort of nice caption for whatever piece they are playing including the particulars on the recording, solo artist, etc., because occasionally I’ve really liked one and would have liked to know.
Thanks. Do you have the link to send congrats email?
yep.
once again - both stupid and immoral.
No machtergreifungs please, not even from a democrat.
Bread — laced with arsenic
and Circuses — of evil clowns right out of a Stephen King novel. This is what passes for infotainment television these days. Tho’ I’m still waiting for Running Man….
If this era were a novel, nobody’d buy it, but the sheeple have been buyin’ it for seven long years…. And Rupert-style media have done a horror show on values for our children, as noted above.
Christy, thanks for this post. 24 has been a showcase of the cynical corruption of this country’s values and integrity in the name of politicizing fear by BushCo. Violence porn, indeed.
Prairie Weather: Snow Job
The Chuck Norris of the McCain campaign.
Spook-guys say they’re focusing on “language capabilities” and diversity. Paying bonuses. Without mentioning that they fire anyone competent like Sibel Edmonds.
And, after the worried about a deficit only now stylings of Sen. Corker, we’re back to a scintillating Quorum Call…
Mueller smirks that business outbids FBI for recruits with language skills. Wonder why he thinks that’s amusing.
Oh, it’s Sen. Mikulski. More stimulus package, the economy, and her frustration with the US Senate…and parliamentary procedure whinging. Someone shoot me.
*waving* That worked in my 56 but HERE it is.
Maybe he’s a smirking Friedmanite?
Ha. The D circular firing squad!
OK how about just impeachment.
Jeeze Mikulski is still alive.
CHS. I am surround sound.Quorum calls are my favourite time.
and that’s what the democrats have to do, attack the republicans for creating enemies against us
if I’m running, I’m saying;
‘the republicans have bread enemies against us and they use those enemies as a tool to get re elected
they think Americans are idiots who won’t hold them accountable for recruiting people to attack us”
or something like that
the real point is the republicans think “immoral is ok if it saves american lives”
but in fact immoral spends american lives, it does not save anything or anyone
Here’s the link on the Brattleboro site for comments:
http://brattleboro.govoffice.c.....&SEC={7405581E-E349-44F3-881A-DA1B030DDD1F}
we as a nation stand guilty of torture because we as a nation elected the people who sanctioned and encouraged torture. the congressional leaders of our nation have refused to hold fuckwad and his minions accountable. we elected those people not once but twice. this country has not stood up to the evil in our midst. some of our citizens have enthusiastically endorsed torture. they have been cheerleaders for torture. they see nothing wrong with it. congress is unwilling to confront this issue in a timely manner. that means it will almost assuredly be conveniently forgotten. since we aren’t willing to deal with it now, the momentum to deal with it will be lost. the cancer within the body politic can then only spread. our shame cannot be erased. nancy and harry stand at the front of a long line.
Have you ever tried to convince an opponent that’s so? In my experience, they’re all happy that Rs treat U.S. enemies as badly as possible & think the Ds are wimps for suggesting that’s a bad idea. I agree with you, but think it’s not a winning tactic with Rs.
Loved those “tortured” words. Might I add another?
Spinheads: All those Sunday talk show guests.
The R’s have really torqued me off with their obstructionist way.
Payback is comin’.
my sentiments exactly
*smooches*
Ah, gee. Even if someone in Congress reminded him of that, I’m sure that Nancy “No Impeachment, No Justice” Pelosi would remind us that such things are “off the table”.
Impeachment Now!
Have you listened to the Rs in the Senate? Did a little of that yesterday. Think it might have been Sessions. He argued that the bad guys are so much badder than we are that everything we do is OK, and anyone who disagrees is a “blame America firster.” First round effects (R approach) sell much more easily with voters than second roung effects (d approach).
Also from the LATimes piece linked above:
Yes, that’s correct. Teaching elite American forces how to withstand torture is…wait for it…a justification for torturing others. Jeebus, words elude me.
Spinheads, great.
-G
So next meetup I must hug you as well as perris. *g*
We have an admission of a few high profile incidents of waterboarding. Is anyone saying that those were the ONLY incidents?
One has to read carefully with these criminals.