Jane!

He could just have easily been referring to Republicans.

For pete’s sake–are we going to do microscopic parsing now?

I really don’t find it sexist. Then again, in my mind. Guys are just as capable of claws, and the status quo crew is full of both genders that have ‘em in spades. Claws is a better choice of words than ‘knives’ at this point as well. Which is probably why he chose it.

no only is it sexist, the connotations are far more negative than anything that either Hillary or Bill have ever said.

I done ain’t got no views.

Cat claws (lion, tigers, cheetahs - get the pic?), but it’s not necessarily sexist. There’s also bear claws. Ever been slapped by a bear?

Then again, IF he was speaking about Clinton in the previous sentences or afterwards, then it could be determined to be sexist or at the very least - lookin’ that way.

Jane!

Please please check your email…

I think I may have to leave FDL for now. The tone has changed.
I wonder if it would be better to declare the blog’s preference.

Jezzus! Why worry about sexism when it’s pretty fucking apparent we need to worry about grammar.

He said that “if you challenge the status quo” could refer to the DLC. If he said Sen. Clinton, then maybe, but he didn’t according to the quote that you have.

And on that note, i’ll see about the context as well. That seems to be another sticking point, though an important one. *heads up to link after starting up the crock pot dinner to cook*

Claws is a better choice of words than ‘knives’ at this point as well. Which is probably why he chose it.

with all due respect, claws are made for scratching and gouging — and in terms of implication, lets face it, men fight with their fists, women with their “claws”… and a guy who fights with is “claws” rather than his fists, is considered to be fighting like a girl…

In fact,

Obama saved most of his criticisms for Bush, but he seemed to have Clinton in his sights when he said, “You challenge the status quo and suddenly the claws come out.”

Badly written. Bad journalism. “But he seemed…”? Please. He was talking about the cons.

Male cats have claws too.

It depends on your definition of “out”.

would it be sexust if she said “you win one state and all of a sudden the baseball bat comes out”

or something masculine like that?

I don’t think so, I think this is really not an issue

See, I can undoubtedly see how it can be called sexist. I’ve said things because it’s an adage without apparent regard for gender.

He could, in his own head, be referencing Hillary, but unless there’s a reference to her somewhere nearby - either overt or oblique - you have to take it as is.

Anything is an issue if we want it to be.

Sexist, no. Referring to gender, yes. A reference can be gender-specific without being sexist.

guys have claws too.

All “claws come out” means is that when a cat is playing nice the claws are retracted, and when it’s aggressive the claws come out…both male and female.

This sort of garbage, Jane, is MODO meme. Can we ACTUALLY discuss the issues here! Spare me, this is a ludicrous piece, and if this is going to become an push-Clinton and clobber Obama site I am outta here until after the election.

I heard that Heather told Britney that Megan was a bitch.

Everyone here should read “Cracking The Code” by Thom Hartmann.

It exposes this kind of shite for what it is.

Can it be a gender based comment and not be sexist?

I amn a straight white male, and think that all presidential candidates will act like goofballs and commit stupid campaign tricks regularly, and will need time outs, or maybe bedtime with no dessert.

Yes, I think it could be construed as a covert sexist swipe.

Overall, I think there needs to be some grown-ups who can tut-tut the candidates, be willing to put this kind of childish behavior on the part of the candidates in perspectie without indulging it, and remind them that there are more important things they can be doing that will help them win the general election(FDL?).

Our country is at stake, the best we can do apparently this cycle, has been Edwards, Obama, and Clinton. They all have serious problems. We need to maximize chances that either Obama or Clinton win. Everything else is secondary (except new and better more aggressive congress)

Oh meme, kabuki, narrative. . .it’s sooo smart here.

I like Obama.

Current poll tally: 48 say sexist. 81 say not sexist.

Radical, Jane.

Now, how about putting up a little vote clicker to see which one we think ought to be the party’s nominee? I think that would be even more interesting. :o)

wow. has it really deteriorated to this? Claws as sexist language? I use it to refer to ‘going on the attack’. Next thing you know, we will have to start looking at the use of terms like, ‘black sheep’ or worse ‘bean counter’

I’m not much into health food, I am into champagne.
I’ve got to meet you by tomorrow noon, and cut through all this red tape.
At a bar called O’Malley’s, where we’ll plan our escape.”

but you didn’t hear that from me!

LOL

how so snowbird?

we are all on edge, we all know how important it is to win the presidency this cycle, it’s more important then any other time in our history

not too many of us are thrilled with either Hillary or Obama but we support any democrat over any republican for this election

it’s gonna get testy I guess, we are all hoping the person we think is going to win gets the nod

long before Hillary declared I thought it would be a terrible idea for her to run, too much time has been spent by the republicans developing the vile hatred they have

they knew she would eventually run and they prepared

they didn’t know Obama would run until just before he announced and they were salivating at the mouth, they think they can get enough bigots out to vote for a republican if we run Obama

this is tough stuff for me to deal with, I have always thought Hillary would make a great president but then I found out how cozy she is with Murdock and how much money she gets from the corporate world

anyway, we’re all on edge here

Jane,

Seems to me you are making arguments in favor of Hillary because she’s a woman. Just my take.

I don’t like the either or choice I must make to cast a vote so I didn’t. Perhaps, deep in Obama’s psychi “claws” is a reference to women. Perhaps. I’d rather deal with issues. I have only so much energy so I prefer we look at issues that count.

“Claws” is a dig at women. It’s right up there with “old bat”. Or, “has been” and all the other sexist remarks that permeate the language. One of my favorite when women had a discussion was the NYT front page headline, “Cat Fight”. Men discuss. Women are catty.

Claws, catty. It’s all there. Is it ugly? Yes. Can I fight each slip of Obama’s tongue? No. Is Obama taking on some nasty stuff from the Right. Yes. And, it’s ugly.

I believe it can be gender based and not sexist…however a cat is not gender based at all, they are both male and female

The remark is questionable. Whatever, I don’t think it appropriate. And my view is that some of Bill’s statements have been, shall we say, somewhat over the top as well. I want a Democrat in the WH next January. Lets get on with it. HIllary and Obama need to find their way, as kiddo is fond of saying, “out of the sandbox”. If we are going to win. I’m sick of it. One or both of my candidates need to elevate themselves. You’re in the gutter. Right wher Rove wants you.

Lahoma.

Please don’t be too hasty about this (Based on the previous thread I think I know why you’re saying this.)…Be patient. Something might happen soon.

wow. has it really deteriorated to this? Claws as sexist language? I use it to refer to ‘going on the attack’. Next thing you know, we will have to start looking at the use of terms like, ‘black sheep’ or worse ‘bean counter’

I believe Obama already covered the term “black sheep” when he applied it to Cheney. And I didn’t even catch the “double meaning” (if it was even intended) until now.

anyway, we’re all on edge here

Please bear in mind “it’s all bullshit”.

Yea, and when we say “cat fight”?

ah, but of those 81, how many were women.

this poll is sexist to start, I am a man and didn’t think it was a sexist remark but I don’t know how I’d feel if I were a women

Somehow with the death and burial of the Constitution today I really can’t get worked up over this.

Please read the previous thread for your answer, and please if you can, keep the comments on that issue on that thread…

Did I sign on to a Fox news blog by mistake. The quote does not even mention Clinton so I don’t have enought information to make a judgment.

“Has been” is a sexist term? I thought that term was usually applied to older (mostly male) athletes.

Yeah, I’m getting that impression, as well. Seems to me that voting for a candidate because she is a woman is as sexist as not voting for a candidate because she is a woman. I think I detect the dynamic in the comments, too.

Not the same, word play and tongue and cheek at work there.

This thread is like Dkos 2.0

that means women, you make a good point, but that’s a social distinction that developed, cats have both gender…it’s sexist because of our culture, it’s not sexist from the point of objectivity

Obama needs to clear his head.
If he wins, he’ll have to deal with the genuine thugs of the planet.
They’ll undercut him with more than ‘claws’.

If he’s smart, he’ll start watching Hillary and take advantage of whatever political mentoring he can get, because in about 8 years, he’ll be in his 50s with a great deal more experience, and the US could really use his talents.

K-k-k-karl Rove must be sh*tfaced with joy to hear Obama whining on about ‘claws’.
Jeebus!

Sonja: Boris, Let me show you how absurd your position is. Let’s say there is no God, and each man is free to do exactly as he chooses.What prevents you from murdering somebody?
Boris: Murder’s immoral.
Sonja: Immorality is subjective.
Boris: Yes, but subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Not in a rational scheme of perception.
Boris: Perception is irrational. It implies imminence.
Sonja: But judgment of any system of phenomena exists in any rational, metaphysical or epistemological contradiction to an abstracted empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
Boris: Yeah, I’ve said that many times.

i do have an issue with the poll…the word sexist is a loaded word

“claws”?

immediate association - cat (s)

immediate association - catty

immediate association - catfight

immediate association - fingernails

sexist?

nah, couldn’t be.

obama is a pure and learned man merely indulging in a bit of metaphysical speculation, e.g., schroedinger’s claws.

of course it is possible,

though it would be so unlike barrack,

that he he was doing to guys

what bill clinton was doing to whites two weeks ago in south carolina - sending them a coded message.

well well,

what’s sauce for the gander remains sauce for the gander (or is that gender?).

but, in the current media climate, whether this parallelism appears as such in the media depends, apparently, on whose gander the media gets to gore.

in any event,

this comment of obama’s makes it clear that

“transformative” politics and “transformative” politicians

is just another cocaine-laced, anodyne for the politically naive in america.

special offer:

get captain obama’s secret decoder ring when you make a campaign contribution to the big BO.

p.s.

my spell checker keeps trying to replace “obama” with “IBM”.

does it know something i don’t?

Supper is served. And my lady is pissed about the claw statement. So I know what the dinner table discussion will be about. And she and I voted for Obama day before yesterday. If our candidates keep saying these stupid things, we just might hand the election to McCain. Words, and how they’re strung together… matter.

the term “black sheep” when he applied it to Cheney.

Obama meant that as snark and irony, mockingly, or did you miss that… I’ve already talked about how this is loaded, and a minefield, metaphorically.

I think that’s what Dean was trying to accomplish with his statement today that he would bring them in and get one of them to drop out before the convention.

If that’s what you’re worrying about, you’ve taken your eye off the ball. This is the EXACT sort of bullshit that gets our asses handed to us cycle after cycle.

For those who thought this wasn’t sexist, curious to know if you thought Bill Clinton’s use of the term “fairy tale” was racist.

Just like to know what the community temperature is with regard to these things. It’s an honest point of inquiry, not a judgment.

here’s the thing. If Hillary had made a similar comment (”the knives come out”) it would have been labelled as ANOTHER instance of her “dog whistling” that Obama is black.

there is simply no question that the phrase itself is sexist, especially when uttered by a male. Its a reference to the way “girls” fight — not manly men who fight with their fists, but “girls” who scratch and claw at each other.

Should it be an issue — no. But then again, the entire “the Clintons are running a racist campaign” thing should never have been an issue — yet not only Obama’s suppporters, but Obama’s own campaign, pushed that despicable campaign tactic.

So count me in as far as promoting the “Obama is running a sexist campaign” meme is concerned — after his campaign’s swift-boating of Hillary on the race issue, its the least he deserves.

No, it was not racist.

Oh, I though he was saying Barak was a fairy:)

I don’t come here to address this sort of stupid, pedantic, deconstruction of a term used. I get enough of that in my real life. What I have loved here are the minds. This sort of thing is simply gutter crap.

That the Democratic party is fractured is evident in the posts here as well as the posts on DK and C&L.

Hillary as Dem nominee will be the hammer that fractures the Dem Party.

Which is good. Because America needs a new, Progressive Party.

Jane it was not the “term” fairy tale, it was the implication that it was fictitious, made up.

A professor huh?

I don’t expect every post here to be Pulitzer quality, lord knows, but this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Without the context, it is impossible to tell who Obama was referring to - Hillary? DLC? Republicans? All we have is the reporter’s inference.

Is the word “claws” inherently sexist? I neither know nor care.

Good night.

(found out).

Murder IS justifiable, depending on the circumstances, such as self-defense. All morality is situational.

I was an Edwards supporter and no one attacked. I have kept my opinions of other candidates quiet because this blog was about issues.
I dont believe in dynasties and machines and I hate Evan Bayh. I love the way the young are flocking to Obama. I really dont like the way this is going on FDL

LOL, particularly if you put that in the context of Andrew Young’s comments (snark he said) about Bill knowing more black women than Obama.:-8

For those who thought this wasn’t sexist, curious to know if you thought Bill Clinton’s use of the term “fairy tale” was racist.

No, I don’t think it was. And I don’t think he was referring to teh gay either.

Not.

Oh good, Woody wasn’t done yet:

Him: Come to my quarters tomorrow at three.
Sonja: I can’t.
Him: Please!
Sonja: It’s immoral. What time?
Him: Who is to say what is moral?
Sonja: Morality is subjective.
Him: Subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Moral notions imply attributes to substances which exist only in relational duality.
Him: Not as an essential extension of ontological existence.
Sonja: Can we not talk about sex so much?

BTW, gang:

Cool down your jets re: the dKos diary talked about (that attacked looseheadprop’s post on Obama and Rezko) in the last thread. A rebuttal to that diary is coming soon on FDL…

See last thread, and please discuss it there…

This is almost a perfect allegory of speaking truth to power… there’s no sexism involved.

I confess to being a male who does not find the comments, in the absence of any context, sexist.

It sure would be nice to have some context for this remark.

My first thought was of tiger’s claws…

That’s the nice thing about this place, in a few minutes there will be a new post.

Barack Obama, but: Ehud Barak…*g*

Biodun, I respect you lots, and the site. But this particular post, coming on the heels of the last post’s discussion and the Kos site post, did NOT help the situation.

Claws are witchy.

I knew way back in April when the HRC show came to FDL that this site was going to be a Clinton site. None of this comes as a surprise.

Four more years of war with HRC in office. Greeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaatttttt.

Jane: there was nothing racist about Bill Clinton claiming that Obama’s claim of consistent opposition to the war was a fairy tale. Clinton was not being a racist. He was, however, lying. I would expect Mr. Clinton to support his wife; I did not expect him to engage in falsehoods, and that’s why he was so strongly attacked.

In 2004, a reporter was trying to trap Obama into condemning John Kerry, the party’s nominee. Obama refused to play, and gave Kerry a possible out (the bit about maybe Kerry’d seen something Obama hadn’t seen). Bill Clinton used this, falsely, to claim that Obama was wavering in his opposition to the war. He wasn’t, and Clinton knew better.

If morality were not situatioal, we wouldn’t need to try individual cases. The rules would be obvious and no trials would be necessary. The exitence of trials proves morality is situational.

Get over it snowbird! I seem to recall you were an Edwards supporter. Me too. Do you really object to holding a magnifying glass to the candidates words and actions? Or do you think that we just do that for Obama? That there’s no criticism of Hillary, or the Clintons here?

OK, good point, and we know Biodun in the past, and others now will be so busy refreshing in the fishing for a zed that they won’t have time to post and read. (snark, meant to be funny, NOT an attack….)

I’ll betcha Obama’s polishing and sharpening his claws as we speak…

I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term “claws” used in reference to a man… so, yes - sexist…

Fairty tale as racist? nope…

His BHR maybe

No, issues are issues. This is sniping

Can’t we all just call for tax relief for the Corporatists?

People claw their way to the top. Claws are worn by warriors and kings as symbols of power. Claws mean lots of things. If we are going to microscope every thing that the Dems are saying, we are truly no better than the Rethugs. It is actions, folks, that count.

I have been enjoyed FDL since your great Libby Trial coverage. But in the last few days, Jane, you have turned it into a Hillary Clinton push site. I am taking FDL off my Favorites list and moving on to read and learn elsewhere.

BHR?

Bear claws.

Crab claws.

Fairy tale as racist. No, it was an inference of immaturity, age bias if you will. Only children, or non-adults believe in Easter bunnies, Christmas, and ogres.

Yep. Everything but everything needs to be exposed to debate. The body politic (including the socius) is healthier that way. Nothing swept under the carpet. Otherwise leads to public trauma–and possibly neurosis…well, at some point for sure. Look at the Vietnam War in this respect. We thought we were done with it. Until the 2004 elections, when Kerry mistakenly and foolhardedly made it the theme of the Dem Convention, which then led to the famous Swiftboating (which has since passed into political lexicon and into history), and which…

It is just that sort of thinking that has provided the option/reality for individuals and nations to attack without reason. Police over respond and kill civilians. Israel and Palestinian attacks on each other. US attack on Iraq, possibly Iran. Murder sometimes happens in self defense, but it is not justifiable.

Candidates Show Claws.

Romney/Huckabee

My 100 addressed to Ecahn’s post on justifiable murder for self protection.

Richmond, with all due respect, you called women over 50 “elderly” yesterday. I realize you didn’t mean it as a slur but nonetheless I think most women would take it as one. I understand people wish that discussions of race and gender would go away because they make them uncomfortable but unfortunately this is the time we get to have them, because the national profile is up and people are paying attention. It’s the time when we get to let well-intended folks like you know that you may be speaking and thinking in ways that are hurtful to us.

It’s what this blog has always been about, from day one. It’s about honest inquiry and leveling the playing field. It may not always happen in ways that make everyone happy but that’s the price of wading into the tough stuff.

Black Handled Razor, that’s what we called em in Chicago “back in the day”.

excellent find Loo Hoo!

update

I’m a woman and I find it sexist 18% (83 votes)
feedback bar
I’m a woman and I don’t find it sexist 23% (109 votes)
feedback bar
I’m a man and I find it sexist 18% (87 votes)
feedback bar
I’m a man and I don’t find it sexist 41% (195 votes)

But in the last few days, Jane, you have turned it into a Hillary Clinton push site

As a former Edwards supporter, who agonized for 10 days about how I would vote on Super Tuesday and finally came down for Obama, I do not see it that way at all.

I am taking FDL off my Favorites list and moving on to read and learn elsewhere.

That is unfortunate, and your loss.

I’m on one of the laptops at the dining-room table with my girl. She’s very not happy with the Obama remarks. How do I know this? She’s not talking. I agree with Lahoma that these statements are over the top. She feels betrayed. And so do I. And even though I cooked supper tonight, and the usual deal is that whoever cooks doesn’t do the cleanup, I’m going to do KP too. I just can’t stand to see Lahoma unhappy.

bathtub claws?

Yeah, but neither of these candidates are running on the issues, are they? Isn’t this the cult of personality? Character? So, then, let’s look at those things.

Maybe you thought we were done with it. It was stupid of Kerry to pull that “reporting for duty” bullshit but O’ Neil and the rest of those fuckers we primed either way.

As a daily reader, infrequent commentator, I hope this is a joke or this site is going down hill. Yesterday, threads of info knitted together to insinuate the appearance of scandal/impropriety by the Loose head (too many games without a scum cap-I’m a fly half) and now this. I was for Edwards but he clearly did not have the goods-for whatever reasons-ignored by media/horserace, whatever. Obama is the real deal. If you saw him and the crowd he attracted and the way they responded to him, and his absolute command of the moment in the Hartford recently (as I did) you would see why. (He made Caroline, Teddy, DeLauro, Larson, Murphy all look like second/third tier). He’s the real deal. If people thought Ned Lamont was inspirational (and I did and volunteered for him and was crushed by his loss), multiply that by about 10,000 and then you are getting warm. I have a friend in Chicago who is a long time Federal Defender there. We went to Catholic U with McAuliffe and Gillespie and know them well and so have more than a passing interest in this stuff. My friend is a real life Atticus Finch and unimpeachable in his liberal bonafides and he has followed Obama as his star has risen. His view is that the Chicago stuff is much ado about nothing. He has convinced me and I have convinced myself that Obama is our only chance to capture or recapture what we have been hoping for for a long time and only in a very small way have had a taste of in our last two Democratic presidents. He may not be perfect but this is our shot and it may never come again, and I for one and going for it and not spending time on the sideshow nonsense.

I think if we nitpick every offhand remark we run the risk of handing the election to the repukes.

People need to get over themselves and deal with the fact there is a real repuke candidate who has a real chance of winning, the repukes, while not united, are farther along in that regard than we are and if people insist on this sort of PC bullshit, rather than looking at defeating that lunitric McCain, we really WILL be in Iraq for the next 100 years and there WILL be more wars.

Is that what we want?

Lobster claws…mmmm…now I’m getting hungry.