For many of us the discussions around the primary race have been painful, pitting friends against friends, or asking those of us who have worked as anti-racist and feminist activists to pick one side when we see them as deeply intertwined strands of working for justice.
Yet – for me – there are a set of core issues that outrank dueling economists and endorsements. And those issues – for me – are founded in a sense of what a civilized nation does or does not do.
Yesterday, a post from David Rees, creator of Get Your War On, compared the performance of Senators Obama and Clinton:
If you're a friend of mine, or a fan of "Get Your War On," you probably know how important the issue of cluster bombs and landmines is to me.
Over 150 nations have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. It pains me that our great nation has not. But in the autumn of 2006, there was a chance to take a step in the right direction: Senate Amendment No. 4882, an amendment to a Pentagon appropriations bill that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.
Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
Rees, who donates all author royalties from GYWO to MDC#5, an Afghan mine clearing team, explains the horror of landmines and clusterbombs:
Cluster bombs and landmines are particularly terrifying weapons that wreak havoc on communities trying to recover from war. They are fatal impediments to reconstruction and rehabilitation of agricultural land; they destroy valuable livestock; they disable otherwise productive members of society; they maim or kill children trying to salvage them for scrap metal.
The vote on S4882 was seen as an important step in moving the US away from support and use of these weapons, weapons which kill many more civilians than combatants:
Some members of Congress are beginning to question the use of cluster munitions, particularly in and around civilian areas. During the 109th Congress, on September 6, 2006, Senator Dianne Feinstein (CA) introduced S. Amdt. 4882 to the FY 2007 Defense Appropriations bill (H.R. 5631), to “protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.” The amendment was cosponsored by Senator Patrick Leahy (VT), and would have prevented funds from being spent to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer cluster munitions, unless the Pentagon ensured that the munitions would not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary. Unfortunately, the amendment was rejected by a vote of 30 – 70.
This legislative attempt continued an effort throughout the 1990s to get the US to sign on to a ban on landmines. In 1996, the Clinton administration had refused to sign on to such a ban, instead opting for continued use in Korea and preservation of the right to use “smart” landmines. Sen. Leahy said at the time:
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY, (D) Vermont: The administration today is announcing a policy which is not a step forward but a step backward. I'm concerned about that. The fight to ban land mines will continue, but I'm afraid that instead of the most powerful nation on earth, the United States, leading that fight, we're going to have to step off the field and allow Canada, Germany, Australia, Belgium, and other countries that have done away with use of land mines to lead the fight for a permanent international ban.
President Clinton never did fulfill his tentative pledge to eventually move to a ban on landmines leading Human Rights Watch to note:
President Bill Clinton has not fulfilled his pledge, first made in 1994, to lead the world to a total ban on antipersonnel landmines. (snip)
While laudably increasing resources for humanitarian mine action programs, President Clinton has not summoned enough political will on his watch to ban antipersonnel mines. Instead, he has deferred to a military that has agreed only reluctantly to get rid of the weapon six years from now, and then only if their conditions are met at that time.
The president has in essence left the decision to ban antipersonnel mines and join the Mine Ban Treaty to the next administration, or the one after that. By postponing the decision to join the treaty until 2006, the president has ceded leadership and abdicated responsibility on a crucial humanitarian issue that he in no small part personally brought to the attention of the rest of the world.
During the Bush administration, the US has continued to refuse to sign a global ban on landmines, instead increasing some funds for mine clearing but also
- Allowing for indefinite use of landmines in Iraq and other conflict areas, and
- Establishing international acceptability for "smart" landmines, which most other countries cannot afford to develop.
Which brings us back to the 2006 Amendment 4882 and a vote that Rees describes as follows:
Analysts say Clinton did not want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electibility.
I'm not a single-issue voter. But as Obama and Clinton share many policy positions, this vote was revelatory for me. After all, Amendment No. 4882 was an easy one to vote against: Who'd want to risk accusation of "tying the hands of the Pentagon" during a never-ending, global War on Terror? As is so often the case, there was no political cost to doing the wrong thing. And there was no political reward for doing the right thing.
But Senator Obama did the right thing.
Is Senator Obama perfect? Of course not. Nobody who voted for 2005's wack-ass energy bill is perfect. Nobody who voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act is perfect.
But of the two remaining Democratic candidates, one decided her vote on Amendment No. 4882 according to a political calculation. The other used a moral calculation.
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Siun!
Honest work - great job.
and…ZED!
Congrats on Zed Kirk … and thank you for the comment.
Good evening Siun.
I think this should be an ‘issue’ but suspect some will say that bringing it up is somehow ‘unfair’ or destructive to the need for us to rally ’round’ our likely candidate.
Thank you, for putting this ‘up’.
My cynical question would be whether or not the vote cost him anything—ie sometimes they can make safe votes knowing things will pass or fail with or without their vote.
I’m so tired of the senate and house kabuki I could just scream!
But yes, that was the right vote. Anyone voting against it should be ashamed. Then again, our elected leaders have no sense of shame these days.
Fantastic post. Worth sharing far and wide.
Thanks, Siun. Excellent post. These are weapons not just of war but of hate. I believe you truly do have to hate to use these long-term deadly things. Aren’t they still finding them in Lebanon - seems to me I read that they were.
that is really a potent commentary. I don’t know what Obama plans to do, but he does seem to vote like a human?
Siun, if I could my hands on you, I’d give you a hug that would put you in traction for a month. :o)
I was juuust about to post this little factoid about Hillary “It takes a village” Clinton, voting AGAINST Senate amendment # 4882, which would have banned the use of clusterbombs in civilian areas.
As you point out; Obama voted for it.
To all of her supporters who keep reminding us that she’s “a fighter”, is it OK if we keep digging up some of the things she fought FOR?
If we nominate her, it’ll be interesting to see McCain and she, debating about health care and immigration and the economy, while they both have the blood of one hell of a lot of Iraqi kids and adults, who had jackshit to do with 9-11, and were not the slightest threat to us, dripping off their hands.
A ‘triple-truth’!
I’ve always been a fan of Rees - and really appreciate the way he’s put his money where his mouth is - and this seemed like one of those substantive issues worth exploring.
one vote short on vote for cloture on the stimulus package. Hapless Harry switched his so he could move to reconsider.
Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
We did not know this.
L. and okk
Perhaps related…thought this was interesting light of the Begala-bull I saw around the Toobz last night, about Obama being the BigMoney candidate. It’s actually not even close…Hillary dominates in this category:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pre.....8;sortby=X
I voted for Edwards. Don’t know how he stands on land mines and clusterbombs. My primary is over- it’s in the hands of Ohio and Texas.
I had the displeasure(OK, sick pleasure)of listening to Rush Limbaugh today. He had a caller state that you know that a Clinton on the ticket will get our base to walk through glass and lose our legs in order to vote against them, but I can’t see myself voting for McCain.
Hillary could vote straight Right Wing Nut Neo-Con and she will never be given a break by the opposition.
I would like to know the differences (if any) between Obama’s and Hillary’s prescriptions for solving the Israeli-Palestinian “problem”.
Aloha, Siun! Having been a former Combat Engineer I was pissed that Bill Clinton rejected the ban on landmines in ‘96… We’re the ones tasked to emplace and to remove them…
Twain … they are still exploding in places from WW2 actually. About 60 countries have significant land mine problems.
Siun, thank you so much for this post and all your other very thoughtful ones that I have read with pleasure but made no comments. I’ve tried not to jump in recently with my strong opinions (and emotions about finally being inspired by someone after decades of not-so-much…). No need to roil the waters any more than they already are.
But this post points out another “small” way that Senator Obama differs from Senator Clinton–one that matters very much to me.
This is precisely why I did not vote.
And will not vote.
EVER AGAIN.
Welcome aboard Martha!
And speak up often - I hope that we can have good and robust discussions here without resorting to the battle stations.
The Hillary hatred is pretty incredible. Goopers on the golf course are full of “Hillary Jokes” (usually have somethin bout blow jobs, lesbians, or emasculation).
Don’t really know where it all comes from- but the hatred is incredible.
I’m hoping that we can look at our two options and base our votes on the issues that matter to us and what they have done. The insanity of some aimed at one or the other is not helpful to our job of picking the best to move us forward. Whether its Hillary hatred or Muslim smears, the right will play their games - we don’t have to.
Thanks, Christina. This is a substantive difference in their voting records that has not been given enough attention.
It was, I think, the only time they were both given the opportunity to cast a war vote and she did the wrong thing and he did the right thing. There’s a lot of assumptions made about what Obama “would” have done, but this time he actually did it.
Rees does make a compelling point. And the fact is, on the authorization of troops bill, every Senator planning a 2004 run chose the CYA way, which angered me at the time and eventually put me in Dean’s camp.
So Obama again chose the ethical answer on a critical issue. Huh. As my passion for politics is always driven by defense of the living and by aiding the poor, more than almost all other issues, that’s a key point for me.
I’m not into endorsement but I find myself leaning.
To the two candidates: more, please.
Politico saying HRC should be worried. She is having $$$ troubles. Had to loan her campaign 4 million. Trying to schedule debate with Obama every week so she can get free media attention. Obama would be a fool to fall for this.
Siun — well done. It was distressing to read the widespread use of particularly lethal cluster bombs — those that tend to remain a threat long after the military conflict is over — during Israel’s incursion into Lebanon. The US had encourage the incursion and did little or nothing to discourage the Israeli choice of weapons. I don’t think anything ever came of this State Department “investigation.”
How is ‘Hillary-Hatred’ connected to this post?
Maybe I’m dense but so far, in the comments, I’ve detected nothing that strikes me as hateful.
Did I miss something?
It’s saturated into Vietnam’s pop culture as well. I’ve seen a few references to it in stuff out of asia more than once. Gathering them and losing limbs to them is still fairly common. Pretty much that entire area got saturated with the damned little things.
Was a response to number 16.
How did McCain vote?
I would have liked to see Clinton vote in favor of a landmine ban. But I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think Obama is any less politically calculating or shrewd than Clinton. All those ‘present’ votes on abortion come to mind.
Thanks Jane! and thank you for giving us all a forum for these kinds of discussions.
McCain voted no. Here’s the roll call.
Children are especially susceptible to this legacy we leave all over the world.
Another in a long list of actions that make this country a pariah around the world. Lookin’ at you George.
Depleted Uranium dust is another one.
What a great way to rid yourself of any responsibility for having to make a decision.
Consider me old fashioned, but I consider voting to be my responsibility as a US citizen, regardless of how hard it is to come to that decision.
It’s fairly simple. Blind sexism exists in a significant number of men. A woman who’s assertive and nearly always outearned her husband, is stereotyped as a lesbian, because they believe that’s a lesser being.
In fact, it’s the bigots who are the lessers, trapped in inferior minds with inferior ethics. I don’t vote on the basis of who they support, nor do I vote based on who they reject. I use my own mind and ethics to weigh those decisions. But I do call them on their bigotry and try to avoid their company.
I noticed that Biden and Dodd voted No as well.
This was not an easy vote to cast - it followed closely on the Israeli actions in Lebanon so there was a lot of pressure to be quiet.
I actually disagree, if they were centered around the issues, not the latest campaign slur, I think it would be highly beneficial… Except the Faux Spew debate… I’d like Obama to clarify his Healthcare proposal, as it is lagging…
I think Scarecrow is asking how McCain voted today on the stim. package. Don’t know the answer to that one. Didn’t hear his name, but wasn’t listening for it. Crazy Pete Domeneci voted for it as did Liddy.
I guess I do not understand why one would vote against this ban except for pure political calculation. You know, we at the Lake often rail against those who want to reach across the aisle and compromise. But sometimes, there are ethical and/or moral (I use that word with trepidation and in its very broadest sense) decisions that SHOULD receive wide and broad support from every corner of the political world. Just my 2 cents.
They have already debated 20 times.
According to MSNBC Obama has 838 delegates. Hillary has 834.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Fair enough, although it would be nice to realize that the invective of the right is hardly unexpected, and to the degree that certain candidates seek to appeal to the worst instints of that group or appease its more ‘moderate’ war-mongering elements by ‘moving to the center,’ they open themselves to legitimate questions on the part of those who, nominally at least, are considered to be on the same ’side’.
Lahoma and I have discussed this just now. To say we are displeased with HRC on this issue would not quite describe our feelings.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
True, but how many times did they address the real issues, not the gotcha, he said/she said BS…? Let’s parse the issues… Another You-tube debate would be nice…
You know what though - most of those debates were on cable, and not everyone has cable. (Hard to believe, but true.) I lost my MSNBC in a storm and missed a whole slew of debates.
PBS should do a bunch of debates for people who either choose not to have cable, or can’t afford it.
BTW, MSNBC’s Tucker’s now sort of implying the Bradley effect in Hill’s win in CA, belying polls having Obama ahead by 10 points the day before the primary…Nice, eh?
Well said! Have to say that I have grown weary of Dems eating Dems. It’s time we attacked the real enemy, the Republicans and the Bush record.
Excellent post for discussion, by the way. Wish I had more to add to the conversation, but yield to others more knowledgeable on the subject.
Lets see now. Obama was against the Iraq War. Clinton voted for it. Obama was for the ban. HRC wasn’t. These differing views seem to be definitive differences.
We are glad we voted for Obama in the Oklahoma primary yesterday.
Kiddo - I keep an eye on the Haaretz ratings of the US candidates and their discussions since that’s where we see what’s really being said.
Thom Hartmann commented that front runners dont ask for debates so its telling that Hillary is asking for them.
I am trying to imagine a world in which the Clintons don’t operate.
The Clintons are always triangulating. It may be for their benefit but it’s hardly always for ours. Returning to a Clinton era may end up being heartening for Republics, but I’m not looking forward to it.
Yes. I look at Haaretz everyday. Usually more than once. ;0)
I’d concur with that, since they want to contain and maintain their ‘message’ which is precisely the reason I advocate for more debate, not less… ;-)
Re McCain on stimulus bill (not the weapons ban), apparently he was a no show. Flew somewhere else to tell talk show radio guys to shut up. Far more important than voting for unemployment benefits, help for energy bills, etc.
As folks know, I have serious problems with Bill Clinton’s involvement with the sanctions regime and the toll that took on Iraqi children. I would have liked to see Sen. Clinton step away from that thinking with votes such as banning landmines or against the Iraq war … that would have meant a ton to me.
Either Hillary or Obama would be a much better president than the one we have or than McCain. I voted for Edwards and wish he had won- but I’ll support either of the two remaining without reservation
Scarecrow - do you by any chance have the roll call on that bill? I know Obama voted with us on one FISA amendment today and Clinton was not there but I don’t know if she was away all day or whether he was there all day - if that makes sense?
Not yet. Relying on an e-mail.
Did Romney belly up yet? Anyone know?
I voted for Edwards too. Yesterday, in fact. He was still on the ballot in NY.And , no, I don’t think I threw my vote away. I don’t have preference between the two remaining Dems, and will support whichever of them is the nominee, so I used my vote to send a message about Edward’s excellent platform in the hope that the remaining two will not rush too far to the right.
There are perhaps many reasons to support HRC for president. The Senator’s uneven handed performance on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not one of them.
same e-mail says:
Rs voting yes: Specter, Collins, Snowe, Smith, Coleman, Grassley,
Dole, Domenici.
McCain didn’t show up. Clinton and Obama vote yes. AP story
Thanks - I’ll keep an eye on Thomas …
it’s hard to keep up after a long primary night!
Have you seen how many votes Edwards got yesterday? I would really like to know about California and haven’t seen anything.
In this house our eyes remain focused on the prize next November. We believe it vital to deny the Republicans access to the White House next January.
That would be a great figure to have - let’s look for it!
BTW, Obama has raised $3.5 million since the close of polls yesterday - pretty wild.
Edwards was our candidate until he dropped out. There must be a place for this American in a new Democratic Administration.
Edwards to the SCOTUS?
Hillary is clearly now no longer our likely candidate. Obama will win most or all of the February primaries — Hillary has a shot at fighting vback in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, but will need to win them big and she did not win New York or California big and will have a hard time winning these three by a sufficient proportion given the momentum he will have at that point and his cash advantage.
If the superdelegates try to override the voter preference they would set the party back and given who they are that would seem unlikely.
Anyway that’s the way it looks at the moment to me.
Edwards for AG?
Thank you Siun for the post, between your thoughts and RevDeb’s thoughts of our oh so competent, heartless congress and senate. I stand for humanity not a party, and I will be no party to any who sanction, causing death, or not voting for bans on land mines, something so like the banality of evil as coined during trials long ago.
Thanks Siun,
It’s true that Obama has big money, but coming in small amounts from ordinary folks. Only 3% of his donors are tapped out. He still has tremendous fundraising potential.
nodding … there are some issues that trump party for me … we each need to sort out what those are for ourselves but this is one for me
That’s helpful.
I am guessing there is more to this story. This amendment was voted down 70/30. I note that a Senator with pretty good knowledge on these matters, Joe Biden, voted no, as did Chris Dodd.
The first step to putting this country on the correct path begins next November. Support the Democratic nominee. Please.
Lahoma.
I LOVE that idea.
Philosophically.
Don’t know if he has the legal chops tho.
I find I can not be quite so sanguine regarding those delegates whom we term, ‘Super’. But, knowing that they live as I live, share the same conerns and worries and embrace the notions that the Constitution matters and that the ‘people’ are soveriegn, I guess I’m just being ‘difficult’.
Probably, an inherited trait.
What Lahoma said.
okk
The only question I have is how and AG or SCOTUS appointment would advance his chosen cause of fighting poverty.
The information in this post about votes on legislation to ban land mines is extremely sobering and very telling about the candidates. If I were voting, it would be enough to solidify my inclination to vote for Obama.
So, when you say that this issue trumps party for you, does that mean that in a race between, say, Hillary Clinton and John McCain, you’d vote for McCain? Not vote at all? Just curious, because I tend to be a multi-issue comparison person and not a single issue trumps all voter, and I’m curious about the calculus on an ultimate general election vote for folks who tend to be more single-minded on a particular issue.
And saying this knowing there are plusses and minuses for every candidate on either side…
I don’t think so - he is at heart an advocate and I don’t think he would be happy in that position.
Oldgold - I’d love to see more if you have it. I did a lot of reading on the Amendment before writing this and folks like Human Rights Watch, etc were quite clear in their support.
My guess is that some Senators were concerned about this being seen as an implied slight to Israel given their extensive use of clusterbombs … then again, we are rather big users of them ourselves.
OT but apropos to the AP story.
In a conversation I had with an Aussie-the minimum wage is 18.00 an hour.
Compared to who?
Thomas, Alioto
Boy do I disagree
Some OT, but than again, not so much: I’m hearing and reading some of Edwards’ supporters talking about him getting back into it as an independent.
It’s shameful idiocy for them to even speak that bullshit. It would be like Nader on steroids, and if Edwards himself doesn’t start yanking on these people’s chains; my 2C, the respect and admiration that led me to
support him will come to a screeching halt. This is NOT the time for a third party run. We have clear choices between Obama and Clinton, and certainly, between Obama and McCain. It’s political suicide for democrats to be talking third party. Just insanity.
If you’re a former Edwards supporter, we’re all disappointed that John didn’t make it, and we fight like…democrats…over the two that are left, but diverting ANY votes toward a bunch of disgruntled babies, is the stuff of idiocy.
Here is role call on stimulus bill cloture vote, thanks to cbolt:
So …. spending precious time reading political info on a very political blog is for… deciding where to send campaign contribuions?
I welcome you here, whoever you are, but I can’t fathom why anyone resolved not to vote would spend a moment reading about votes.
I’m thinking oldgold is right. There is much more to this story.
Sorry
Compared to who?
Thomas, Alioto
Boy do I disagree
That was in response to Mack@86
No Edit for bozo’s like me is not good.smile
Christy … that’s a hard question for me. I would clearly never vote for McCain. And I know that we are doing our best to raise issues rather than make endorsements. Some issues are the deepest for me … Torture, landmines, the war … they are the ones that I see as determinative - and they are the ones I’ve worked on my whole life so it’s very hard to look at voting for anyone who does not mesh with those votes. I think each voter makes a similar analysis … and I’d rather focus on raising the issues now and hoping we can move towards candidates with stronger, better foreign policy choices.
(and yes I work in PR, why do you ask?)
I think that an AG and a Supreme can have a huge effect on poverty. Brown v. the Board of Education for example (if one believes that equal access to education is key to avoiding poverty) comes immediately to mind. ;0)
California was still counting, particularly votes that were made in the open polls…not mail-ins.
With about 55% of the tally Edwards was getting about 6% of the vote. Given that Californians could vote “absentee” almost up to 1 month before the election I suspect that many of these Edwards supporters were sent in before he announced suspension of his campaign. My guess is that some Edwards supporters decided to vote for Obama and thus that number may diminish.
Perhaps not. But I’d like to see the invitation(s) extended to Mr. Edwards and let him decide. ;0)
Christy@88; You put up some great stuff on here, but I don’t think there is ANY minus like this on Barack’s record.
If you know of one, please; post it.
Stop the “unity” nonsense until AFTER we’ve chosen a candidate. It’s nothing but a dog-whistle for “lay off Hillary!”.
As an anti-poverty activist, the first hit I saw the poor take in the post-Great Society Reagan War On The Poor was the weakening of Legal Aid.
The poor could fight back with it, very empowering, as it took more than dependency and passivity to utilize. Now it’s mostly restricted to uncontested divorces and evictions.
Edwards as AG could pursue corporate crooks while also advocating for a vastly expanded legal aid system, he could serve the poor and the nation very well.
I believe strongly that an AG or a Supreme can be one of our paramount advocates for fairness, justice and equality. There have been activist Supremes.
I sure would love to see Edwards as AG .. I think that’s a role with a real chance to push action!
If you read what I posted you can tell I am conflicted and truly in a quandary as to who to vote for, but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road I will vote for the democratic choice all the while wishing there were a third socialist party who up a candidate that truly represented what I believe to be important, or, whose agenda helped humanize the other two. IMHO
Hey Siun -
Great post!
Edwards for AG, we can only hope.
My specifics are that the amendment was thrashed 30/70 with the Democrats leading on authority on foriegn policy matters, Joe Biden, voting: no.
This leads me to believe that the matter was much more complicated and nuanced than you presented it.
Looking at individual votes on amendments is, generally speaking, a poor way to fully ascertain where a Senator might stand on a particular issue. The misuse of this sort of thing is why we have not elected a sitting Senator as President for almost a half century.
Then again, perhaps Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden are for blowing up children.
I maintain that the perfect place for Mr. Edwards is on the SCOTUS bench or as the AG.
DWBartoo@29:
Putting up the facts about Clinton’s track record is a mysogyinistic, sexist, and highly personal attack on the candidate whose name and gender entitles her to the democratic nomination, with little or no relevance to the issues.
And don’t you forget it.
(If you do, someone on this progressive blogsite where she got 10% of 2309 votes in that straw poll last October, will remind you of it. :o) )