For many of us the discussions around the primary race have been painful, pitting friends against friends, or asking those of us who have worked as anti-racist and feminist activists to pick one side when we see them as deeply intertwined strands of working for justice.
Yet – for me – there are a set of core issues that outrank dueling economists and endorsements. And those issues – for me – are founded in a sense of what a civilized nation does or does not do.
Yesterday, a post from David Rees, creator of Get Your War On, compared the performance of Senators Obama and Clinton:
If you’re a friend of mine, or a fan of "Get Your War On," you probably know how important the issue of cluster bombs and landmines is to me.
Over 150 nations have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. It pains me that our great nation has not. But in the autumn of 2006, there was a chance to take a step in the right direction: Senate Amendment No. 4882, an amendment to a Pentagon appropriations bill that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.
Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
Rees, who donates all author royalties from GYWO to MDC#5, an Afghan mine clearing team, explains the horror of landmines and clusterbombs:
Cluster bombs and landmines are particularly terrifying weapons that wreak havoc on communities trying to recover from war. They are fatal impediments to reconstruction and rehabilitation of agricultural land; they destroy valuable livestock; they disable otherwise productive members of society; they maim or kill children trying to salvage them for scrap metal.
The vote on S4882 was seen as an important step in moving the US away from support and use of these weapons, weapons which kill many more civilians than combatants:
Some members of Congress are beginning to question the use of cluster munitions, particularly in and around civilian areas. During the 109th Congress, on September 6, 2006, Senator Dianne Feinstein (CA) introduced S. Amdt. 4882 to the FY 2007 Defense Appropriations bill (H.R. 5631), to “protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.” The amendment was cosponsored by Senator Patrick Leahy (VT), and would have prevented funds from being spent to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer cluster munitions, unless the Pentagon ensured that the munitions would not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary. Unfortunately, the amendment was rejected by a vote of 30 – 70.
This legislative attempt continued an effort throughout the 1990s to get the US to sign on to a ban on landmines. In 1996, the Clinton administration had refused to sign on to such a ban, instead opting for continued use in Korea and preservation of the right to use “smart” landmines. Sen. Leahy said at the time:
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY, (D) Vermont: The administration today is announcing a policy which is not a step forward but a step backward. I’m concerned about that. The fight to ban land mines will continue, but I’m afraid that instead of the most powerful nation on earth, the United States, leading that fight, we’re going to have to step off the field and allow Canada, Germany, Australia, Belgium, and other countries that have done away with use of land mines to lead the fight for a permanent international ban.
President Clinton never did fulfill his tentative pledge to eventually move to a ban on landmines leading Human Rights Watch to note:
President Bill Clinton has not fulfilled his pledge, first made in 1994, to lead the world to a total ban on antipersonnel landmines. (snip)
While laudably increasing resources for humanitarian mine action programs, President Clinton has not summoned enough political will on his watch to ban antipersonnel mines. Instead, he has deferred to a military that has agreed only reluctantly to get rid of the weapon six years from now, and then only if their conditions are met at that time.
The president has in essence left the decision to ban antipersonnel mines and join the Mine Ban Treaty to the next administration, or the one after that. By postponing the decision to join the treaty until 2006, the president has ceded leadership and abdicated responsibility on a crucial humanitarian issue that he in no small part personally brought to the attention of the rest of the world.
During the Bush administration, the US has continued to refuse to sign a global ban on landmines, instead increasing some funds for mine clearing but also
- Allowing for indefinite use of landmines in Iraq and other conflict areas, and
- Establishing international acceptability for "smart" landmines, which most other countries cannot afford to develop.
Which brings us back to the 2006 Amendment 4882 and a vote that Rees describes as follows:
Analysts say Clinton did not want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electibility.
I’m not a single-issue voter. But as Obama and Clinton share many policy positions, this vote was revelatory for me. After all, Amendment No. 4882 was an easy one to vote against: Who’d want to risk accusation of "tying the hands of the Pentagon" during a never-ending, global War on Terror? As is so often the case, there was no political cost to doing the wrong thing. And there was no political reward for doing the right thing.
But Senator Obama did the right thing.
Is Senator Obama perfect? Of course not. Nobody who voted for 2005′s wack-ass energy bill is perfect. Nobody who voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act is perfect.
But of the two remaining Democratic candidates, one decided her vote on Amendment No. 4882 according to a political calculation. The other used a moral calculation.



156 Comments



Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Siun!
Honest work – great job.
and…ZED!
Congrats on Zed Kirk … and thank you for the comment.
Good evening Siun.
I think this should be an ‘issue’ but suspect some will say that bringing it up is somehow ‘unfair’ or destructive to the need for us to rally ’round’ our likely candidate.
Thank you, for putting this ‘up’.
My cynical question would be whether or not the vote cost him anything—ie sometimes they can make safe votes knowing things will pass or fail with or without their vote.
I’m so tired of the senate and house kabuki I could just scream!
But yes, that was the right vote. Anyone voting against it should be ashamed. Then again, our elected leaders have no sense of shame these days.
Fantastic post. Worth sharing far and wide.
Thanks, Siun. Excellent post. These are weapons not just of war but of hate. I believe you truly do have to hate to use these long-term deadly things. Aren’t they still finding them in Lebanon – seems to me I read that they were.
that is really a potent commentary. I don’t know what Obama plans to do, but he does seem to vote like a human?
Siun, if I could my hands on you, I’d give you a hug that would put you in traction for a month. :o)
I was juuust about to post this little factoid about Hillary “It takes a village” Clinton, voting AGAINST Senate amendment # 4882, which would have banned the use of clusterbombs in civilian areas.
As you point out; Obama voted for it.
To all of her supporters who keep reminding us that she’s “a fighter”, is it OK if we keep digging up some of the things she fought FOR?
If we nominate her, it’ll be interesting to see McCain and she, debating about health care and immigration and the economy, while they both have the blood of one hell of a lot of Iraqi kids and adults, who had jackshit to do with 9-11, and were not the slightest threat to us, dripping off their hands.
A ‘triple-truth’!
I’ve always been a fan of Rees – and really appreciate the way he’s put his money where his mouth is – and this seemed like one of those substantive issues worth exploring.
one vote short on vote for cloture on the stimulus package. Hapless Harry switched his so he could move to reconsider.
Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
We did not know this.
L. and okk
Perhaps related…thought this was interesting light of the Begala-bull I saw around the Toobz last night, about Obama being the BigMoney candidate. It’s actually not even close…Hillary dominates in this category:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pre…..8;sortby=X
I voted for Edwards. Don’t know how he stands on land mines and clusterbombs. My primary is over- it’s in the hands of Ohio and Texas.
I had the displeasure(OK, sick pleasure)of listening to Rush Limbaugh today. He had a caller state that you know that a Clinton on the ticket will get our base to walk through glass and lose our legs in order to vote against them, but I can’t see myself voting for McCain.
Hillary could vote straight Right Wing Nut Neo-Con and she will never be given a break by the opposition.
I would like to know the differences (if any) between Obama’s and Hillary’s prescriptions for solving the Israeli-Palestinian “problem”.
Aloha, Siun! Having been a former Combat Engineer I was pissed that Bill Clinton rejected the ban on landmines in ‘96… We’re the ones tasked to emplace and to remove them…
Twain … they are still exploding in places from WW2 actually. About 60 countries have significant land mine problems.
Siun, thank you so much for this post and all your other very thoughtful ones that I have read with pleasure but made no comments. I’ve tried not to jump in recently with my strong opinions (and emotions about finally being inspired by someone after decades of not-so-much…). No need to roil the waters any more than they already are.
But this post points out another “small” way that Senator Obama differs from Senator Clinton–one that matters very much to me.
This is precisely why I did not vote.
And will not vote.
EVER AGAIN.
Welcome aboard Martha!
And speak up often – I hope that we can have good and robust discussions here without resorting to the battle stations.
The Hillary hatred is pretty incredible. Goopers on the golf course are full of “Hillary Jokes” (usually have somethin bout blow jobs, lesbians, or emasculation).
Don’t really know where it all comes from- but the hatred is incredible.
I’m hoping that we can look at our two options and base our votes on the issues that matter to us and what they have done. The insanity of some aimed at one or the other is not helpful to our job of picking the best to move us forward. Whether its Hillary hatred or Muslim smears, the right will play their games – we don’t have to.
Thanks, Christina. This is a substantive difference in their voting records that has not been given enough attention.
It was, I think, the only time they were both given the opportunity to cast a war vote and she did the wrong thing and he did the right thing. There’s a lot of assumptions made about what Obama “would” have done, but this time he actually did it.
Rees does make a compelling point. And the fact is, on the authorization of troops bill, every Senator planning a 2004 run chose the CYA way, which angered me at the time and eventually put me in Dean’s camp.
So Obama again chose the ethical answer on a critical issue. Huh. As my passion for politics is always driven by defense of the living and by aiding the poor, more than almost all other issues, that’s a key point for me.
I’m not into endorsement but I find myself leaning.
To the two candidates: more, please.
Politico saying HRC should be worried. She is having $$$ troubles. Had to loan her campaign 4 million. Trying to schedule debate with Obama every week so she can get free media attention. Obama would be a fool to fall for this.
Siun — well done. It was distressing to read the widespread use of particularly lethal cluster bombs — those that tend to remain a threat long after the military conflict is over — during Israel’s incursion into Lebanon. The US had encourage the incursion and did little or nothing to discourage the Israeli choice of weapons. I don’t think anything ever came of this State Department “investigation.”
How is ‘Hillary-Hatred’ connected to this post?
Maybe I’m dense but so far, in the comments, I’ve detected nothing that strikes me as hateful.
Did I miss something?
It’s saturated into Vietnam’s pop culture as well. I’ve seen a few references to it in stuff out of asia more than once. Gathering them and losing limbs to them is still fairly common. Pretty much that entire area got saturated with the damned little things.
Was a response to number 16.
How did McCain vote?
I would have liked to see Clinton vote in favor of a landmine ban. But I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think Obama is any less politically calculating or shrewd than Clinton. All those ‘present’ votes on abortion come to mind.
Thanks Jane! and thank you for giving us all a forum for these kinds of discussions.
McCain voted no. Here’s the roll call.
Children are especially susceptible to this legacy we leave all over the world.
Another in a long list of actions that make this country a pariah around the world. Lookin’ at you George.
Depleted Uranium dust is another one.
What a great way to rid yourself of any responsibility for having to make a decision.
Consider me old fashioned, but I consider voting to be my responsibility as a US citizen, regardless of how hard it is to come to that decision.
It’s fairly simple. Blind sexism exists in a significant number of men. A woman who’s assertive and nearly always outearned her husband, is stereotyped as a lesbian, because they believe that’s a lesser being.
In fact, it’s the bigots who are the lessers, trapped in inferior minds with inferior ethics. I don’t vote on the basis of who they support, nor do I vote based on who they reject. I use my own mind and ethics to weigh those decisions. But I do call them on their bigotry and try to avoid their company.
I noticed that Biden and Dodd voted No as well.
This was not an easy vote to cast – it followed closely on the Israeli actions in Lebanon so there was a lot of pressure to be quiet.
I actually disagree, if they were centered around the issues, not the latest campaign slur, I think it would be highly beneficial… Except the Faux Spew debate… I’d like Obama to clarify his Healthcare proposal, as it is lagging…
I think Scarecrow is asking how McCain voted today on the stim. package. Don’t know the answer to that one. Didn’t hear his name, but wasn’t listening for it. Crazy Pete Domeneci voted for it as did Liddy.
I guess I do not understand why one would vote against this ban except for pure political calculation. You know, we at the Lake often rail against those who want to reach across the aisle and compromise. But sometimes, there are ethical and/or moral (I use that word with trepidation and in its very broadest sense) decisions that SHOULD receive wide and broad support from every corner of the political world. Just my 2 cents.
They have already debated 20 times.
According to MSNBC Obama has 838 delegates. Hillary has 834.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Fair enough, although it would be nice to realize that the invective of the right is hardly unexpected, and to the degree that certain candidates seek to appeal to the worst instints of that group or appease its more ‘moderate’ war-mongering elements by ‘moving to the center,’ they open themselves to legitimate questions on the part of those who, nominally at least, are considered to be on the same ’side’.
Lahoma and I have discussed this just now. To say we are displeased with HRC on this issue would not quite describe our feelings.
Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.
True, but how many times did they address the real issues, not the gotcha, he said/she said BS…? Let’s parse the issues… Another You-tube debate would be nice…
You know what though – most of those debates were on cable, and not everyone has cable. (Hard to believe, but true.) I lost my MSNBC in a storm and missed a whole slew of debates.
PBS should do a bunch of debates for people who either choose not to have cable, or can’t afford it.
BTW, MSNBC’s Tucker’s now sort of implying the Bradley effect in Hill’s win in CA, belying polls having Obama ahead by 10 points the day before the primary…Nice, eh?
Well said! Have to say that I have grown weary of Dems eating Dems. It’s time we attacked the real enemy, the Republicans and the Bush record.
Excellent post for discussion, by the way. Wish I had more to add to the conversation, but yield to others more knowledgeable on the subject.
Lets see now. Obama was against the Iraq War. Clinton voted for it. Obama was for the ban. HRC wasn’t. These differing views seem to be definitive differences.
We are glad we voted for Obama in the Oklahoma primary yesterday.
Kiddo – I keep an eye on the Haaretz ratings of the US candidates and their discussions since that’s where we see what’s really being said.
Thom Hartmann commented that front runners dont ask for debates so its telling that Hillary is asking for them.
I am trying to imagine a world in which the Clintons don’t operate.
The Clintons are always triangulating. It may be for their benefit but it’s hardly always for ours. Returning to a Clinton era may end up being heartening for Republics, but I’m not looking forward to it.
Yes. I look at Haaretz everyday. Usually more than once. ;0)
I’d concur with that, since they want to contain and maintain their ‘message’ which is precisely the reason I advocate for more debate, not less… ;-)
Re McCain on stimulus bill (not the weapons ban), apparently he was a no show. Flew somewhere else to tell talk show radio guys to shut up. Far more important than voting for unemployment benefits, help for energy bills, etc.
As folks know, I have serious problems with Bill Clinton’s involvement with the sanctions regime and the toll that took on Iraqi children. I would have liked to see Sen. Clinton step away from that thinking with votes such as banning landmines or against the Iraq war … that would have meant a ton to me.
Either Hillary or Obama would be a much better president than the one we have or than McCain. I voted for Edwards and wish he had won- but I’ll support either of the two remaining without reservation
Scarecrow – do you by any chance have the roll call on that bill? I know Obama voted with us on one FISA amendment today and Clinton was not there but I don’t know if she was away all day or whether he was there all day – if that makes sense?
Not yet. Relying on an e-mail.
Did Romney belly up yet? Anyone know?
I voted for Edwards too. Yesterday, in fact. He was still on the ballot in NY.And , no, I don’t think I threw my vote away. I don’t have preference between the two remaining Dems, and will support whichever of them is the nominee, so I used my vote to send a message about Edward’s excellent platform in the hope that the remaining two will not rush too far to the right.
There are perhaps many reasons to support HRC for president. The Senator’s uneven handed performance on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not one of them.
same e-mail says:
Rs voting yes: Specter, Collins, Snowe, Smith, Coleman, Grassley,
Dole, Domenici.
McCain didn’t show up. Clinton and Obama vote yes. AP story
Thanks – I’ll keep an eye on Thomas …
it’s hard to keep up after a long primary night!
Have you seen how many votes Edwards got yesterday? I would really like to know about California and haven’t seen anything.
In this house our eyes remain focused on the prize next November. We believe it vital to deny the Republicans access to the White House next January.
That would be a great figure to have – let’s look for it!
BTW, Obama has raised $3.5 million since the close of polls yesterday – pretty wild.
Edwards was our candidate until he dropped out. There must be a place for this American in a new Democratic Administration.
Edwards to the SCOTUS?
Hillary is clearly now no longer our likely candidate. Obama will win most or all of the February primaries — Hillary has a shot at fighting vback in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, but will need to win them big and she did not win New York or California big and will have a hard time winning these three by a sufficient proportion given the momentum he will have at that point and his cash advantage.
If the superdelegates try to override the voter preference they would set the party back and given who they are that would seem unlikely.
Anyway that’s the way it looks at the moment to me.
Edwards for AG?
Thank you Siun for the post, between your thoughts and RevDeb’s thoughts of our oh so competent, heartless congress and senate. I stand for humanity not a party, and I will be no party to any who sanction, causing death, or not voting for bans on land mines, something so like the banality of evil as coined during trials long ago.
Thanks Siun,
It’s true that Obama has big money, but coming in small amounts from ordinary folks. Only 3% of his donors are tapped out. He still has tremendous fundraising potential.
nodding … there are some issues that trump party for me … we each need to sort out what those are for ourselves but this is one for me
That’s helpful.
I am guessing there is more to this story. This amendment was voted down 70/30. I note that a Senator with pretty good knowledge on these matters, Joe Biden, voted no, as did Chris Dodd.
The first step to putting this country on the correct path begins next November. Support the Democratic nominee. Please.
Lahoma.
I LOVE that idea.
Philosophically.
Don’t know if he has the legal chops tho.
I find I can not be quite so sanguine regarding those delegates whom we term, ‘Super’. But, knowing that they live as I live, share the same conerns and worries and embrace the notions that the Constitution matters and that the ‘people’ are soveriegn, I guess I’m just being ‘difficult’.
Probably, an inherited trait.
What Lahoma said.
okk
The only question I have is how and AG or SCOTUS appointment would advance his chosen cause of fighting poverty.
The information in this post about votes on legislation to ban land mines is extremely sobering and very telling about the candidates. If I were voting, it would be enough to solidify my inclination to vote for Obama.
So, when you say that this issue trumps party for you, does that mean that in a race between, say, Hillary Clinton and John McCain, you’d vote for McCain? Not vote at all? Just curious, because I tend to be a multi-issue comparison person and not a single issue trumps all voter, and I’m curious about the calculus on an ultimate general election vote for folks who tend to be more single-minded on a particular issue.
And saying this knowing there are plusses and minuses for every candidate on either side…
I don’t think so – he is at heart an advocate and I don’t think he would be happy in that position.
Oldgold – I’d love to see more if you have it. I did a lot of reading on the Amendment before writing this and folks like Human Rights Watch, etc were quite clear in their support.
My guess is that some Senators were concerned about this being seen as an implied slight to Israel given their extensive use of clusterbombs … then again, we are rather big users of them ourselves.
OT but apropos to the AP story.
In a conversation I had with an Aussie-the minimum wage is 18.00 an hour.
Compared to who?
Thomas, Alioto
Boy do I disagree
Some OT, but than again, not so much: I’m hearing and reading some of Edwards’ supporters talking about him getting back into it as an independent.
It’s shameful idiocy for them to even speak that bullshit. It would be like Nader on steroids, and if Edwards himself doesn’t start yanking on these people’s chains; my 2C, the respect and admiration that led me to
support him will come to a screeching halt. This is NOT the time for a third party run. We have clear choices between Obama and Clinton, and certainly, between Obama and McCain. It’s political suicide for democrats to be talking third party. Just insanity.
If you’re a former Edwards supporter, we’re all disappointed that John didn’t make it, and we fight like…democrats…over the two that are left, but diverting ANY votes toward a bunch of disgruntled babies, is the stuff of idiocy.
Here is role call on stimulus bill cloture vote, thanks to cbolt:
So …. spending precious time reading political info on a very political blog is for… deciding where to send campaign contribuions?
I welcome you here, whoever you are, but I can’t fathom why anyone resolved not to vote would spend a moment reading about votes.
I’m thinking oldgold is right. There is much more to this story.
Sorry
Compared to who?
Thomas, Alioto
Boy do I disagree
That was in response to Mack@86
No Edit for bozo’s like me is not good.smile
Christy … that’s a hard question for me. I would clearly never vote for McCain. And I know that we are doing our best to raise issues rather than make endorsements. Some issues are the deepest for me … Torture, landmines, the war … they are the ones that I see as determinative – and they are the ones I’ve worked on my whole life so it’s very hard to look at voting for anyone who does not mesh with those votes. I think each voter makes a similar analysis … and I’d rather focus on raising the issues now and hoping we can move towards candidates with stronger, better foreign policy choices.
(and yes I work in PR, why do you ask?)
I think that an AG and a Supreme can have a huge effect on poverty. Brown v. the Board of Education for example (if one believes that equal access to education is key to avoiding poverty) comes immediately to mind. ;0)
California was still counting, particularly votes that were made in the open polls…not mail-ins.
With about 55% of the tally Edwards was getting about 6% of the vote. Given that Californians could vote “absentee” almost up to 1 month before the election I suspect that many of these Edwards supporters were sent in before he announced suspension of his campaign. My guess is that some Edwards supporters decided to vote for Obama and thus that number may diminish.
Perhaps not. But I’d like to see the invitation(s) extended to Mr. Edwards and let him decide. ;0)
Christy@88; You put up some great stuff on here, but I don’t think there is ANY minus like this on Barack’s record.
If you know of one, please; post it.
Stop the “unity” nonsense until AFTER we’ve chosen a candidate. It’s nothing but a dog-whistle for “lay off Hillary!”.
As an anti-poverty activist, the first hit I saw the poor take in the post-Great Society Reagan War On The Poor was the weakening of Legal Aid.
The poor could fight back with it, very empowering, as it took more than dependency and passivity to utilize. Now it’s mostly restricted to uncontested divorces and evictions.
Edwards as AG could pursue corporate crooks while also advocating for a vastly expanded legal aid system, he could serve the poor and the nation very well.
I believe strongly that an AG or a Supreme can be one of our paramount advocates for fairness, justice and equality. There have been activist Supremes.
I sure would love to see Edwards as AG .. I think that’s a role with a real chance to push action!
If you read what I posted you can tell I am conflicted and truly in a quandary as to who to vote for, but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road I will vote for the democratic choice all the while wishing there were a third socialist party who up a candidate that truly represented what I believe to be important, or, whose agenda helped humanize the other two. IMHO
Hey Siun -
Great post!
Edwards for AG, we can only hope.
My specifics are that the amendment was thrashed 30/70 with the Democrats leading on authority on foriegn policy matters, Joe Biden, voting: no.
This leads me to believe that the matter was much more complicated and nuanced than you presented it.
Looking at individual votes on amendments is, generally speaking, a poor way to fully ascertain where a Senator might stand on a particular issue. The misuse of this sort of thing is why we have not elected a sitting Senator as President for almost a half century.
Then again, perhaps Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden are for blowing up children.
I maintain that the perfect place for Mr. Edwards is on the SCOTUS bench or as the AG.
DWBartoo@29:
Putting up the facts about Clinton’s track record is a mysogyinistic, sexist, and highly personal attack on the candidate whose name and gender entitles her to the democratic nomination, with little or no relevance to the issues.
And don’t you forget it.
(If you do, someone on this progressive blogsite where she got 10% of 2309 votes in that straw poll last October, will remind you of it. :o) )
He would be an excellent choice, wise and touched by life.
Look, I know you don’t like Hillary Clinton and you have problems with her on a number of policy issues. But Obama is not perfect, either, and you do yourself no favor by pretending that his record is unblemished and that he is some party savior. He’s not. Both Democratic candidates are head and shoulders better than McCain, Romney or Huckabee from my vantage point — military and foreign policy-wise, education policy-wise, any number of domestic-issues-wise, court nominations, I could go on and on as to why.
But Obama has some holes as well, including some unanswered questions about favors for campaign donors which will no doubt be exploited to the hilt by the GOP if they aren’t fully aired before he earns the nomination, if that happens.
And hating Hillary doesn’t make Obama’s questions go away. It just doesn’t.
Oldgold – as I said, I would be very happy to see the argument for voting against a ban on landmines. Folks who follow the issue – including Rees – found it substantive.
There are many pulls on Senators – and for me, that’s where the rubber meets the road. Do you stand for the right stuff even when it’s hard – and what boundaries do you draw on that.
I see your point. Obama will likely do quite well in the Potomac Primaries (Wash. DC, Virginia, Maryland)…especially since he did so well in Delaware, Georgia and South Carolina. One can also predict a good turn-out in North Carolina. Pennsylvania is an interesting State…more like NY or NJ…or not?
Mississippi and Louisiana may go like Alabama. Texas isn’t necessarily a Clinton shoe-in. Large African American population in the East and so delegate distributions may be quite important there, rather than the actual vote counts.
Washington is a caucus State I believe. And Hawaii certainly has a large Obama link…he lived there for over a decade, and has personal contacts in the State.
If Obama comes in with a majority of elected delegates it may be very hard to allow the Florida and Michigan delegates to get credentialled. What might be interesting is to arrange some sort of second election or caucus in those two States and allow both candidates to campaign fairly and evenly.
Oldgold@107:
Or, maybe, they were just doing a little ass-covering triangulation with the people most responsible for the misery in Iraq.
Or course, it’s worth pointing out to all of the “They did it too!” Clinton apologists, that neither Biden nor Dodd, are still in the race. :o)
I’d love to see a second election – fair and square – for both states. It’s a much better solution than the battle that’s brewing.
OT DMAC wanted be to tell ya’ll that Michael Moore and Ari Fliesher are on Larry King tonight.
It is tough — there are certain issues for me which make voting for a particular candidate very, very difficult when I look at them in a singular perspective. But, when I pull back and do an overall comparison — especially with McCain or Romney or Huckabee as the bouncing off comparison — those issues get dwarfed by the enormity of the problems with the GOP field. At least, at this point for me, anyway — and that’s true for both Clinton and Obama…for me.
But that point is different for everyone. And I’m trying to get a feel for where that point seems to be across a broader spectrum of folks. Because it seems like it is a very volatile question this year, and I’m intrigued by the reasons that seems to be…and how different they are for everyone I’ve asked the question.
No it’s an acknowledgment that we’re all going to have to come together one day behind a candidate.
Show some respect for the people who try to keep the discussion in this place clean. If you want to screech and yell irrationally, I think you know there are other places in the blogosphere where you’ll get a better reception.
odd coupling.
I can wish that would happen. *disenfranchised MI voter flag here*
Dunno if the DNC will agree to that, but it’d be nice. The MDP’s likely heard it from all sides about this ‘great’ idea that screwed the locals out of any way to get the issues out this year. This one wasn’t decided easy, and won’t be. If we’d have waited, we could have gotten some kinda press. Now we’re just finding out how Hillary’s uncontested delegates are going to be sorted–and possibly if they’ll be seated.
Now is the time to unite Democrats. Though we cast our votes yesterday for Obama we will support HRC if the Senator is the nominee of our party. We voted in our home state (Oklahoma) and Senator Clinton carried our state. We are not disappointed. We support Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton. We view strongly that these are winning combinations. We must deny the Republicans victory. Victory is ours. Please support the Democratic nominee for president. Whatever their name is. Please. ;0)
Washington is a Silly State. There’s a Primary, but the Dems don’t use the results to assign delegates–that’s done by caucus (this Saturday, 1pm). The repugnants have successfully sued to close their primary, but still only assign part of their delegates that way.
I can’t believe I’m seriously considering “caususing” on Saturday (been to the State party site and google maps). “Eric” from the Obama phone bank should get a big raise.
FunnyD
King Co. Washington
undecided but leaning…
laughing … gotta love volunteers! and I hope folks are joining in to do the same for whoever they support!
So go caucus … they’re fun!
Point taken.
My rejoinder would be the same thing i said to folks who said the Dems needed a Rove.
You cannot let your opposition define your standards.
If you do, there is no point to having standards.
I want a qualified progressive on the SCOTUS.
One who can influence the direction of the land from heart AND head.
I am not saying that Edwards is not that person – I honestly do not know.
I wonder if Hillary Clinton regrets this vote or thinks it was a mistake. Perhaps if she knew then what she knows now about landmines….
Maybe I’m not as cynical as I think I am. I just got a call from an Obama field organizer to tell me that Barack is coming to our area on Saturday and they need volunteers.
I’m really excited and I can’t believe it. Sweet.
That is, I can’t believe how excited I am, not that he’s coming.
Thank you Siun for this information. I had a heck of a time deciding who to vote for yesterday. I swore over the weekend I wasn’t going to vote.
I wanted Edwards, but felt that I had to make peace with Hillary and Obama sooner or latter, and I voted for Obama. I thought I would never forgive him for sharing the stage with Donnie McClurkin. It was all by intuition, and I surprised myself in the process.
This helps me process the whole election experience, which I have to say is very exciting.
FunnyD, I look forward to your caucus report!
You know, the irony is that these States moved up their elections to become “more influential”. In reality they’d have been more influential by retaining their original dates.
I’m wondering how this could be done. Would the State governments fund it? Or would the Party have to fund it? Would a caucus be cheaper than an election?
I think that this should be something that the party leadership, John Dean, Obama and Clinton really need to sit down and arrange BEFORE it becomes an issue at the Convention. If disputed delegations are credentialled at the Convention that are decisive in selecting the nominee it could be devestating to the party in the General Election.
Florida and Michigan should be happy for the chance to have a do-over. It brings money into the States, and increase attention. Seems to be a lot of time between the upcoming February and March Primaries and the Convention to put these in, so it keeps the Democrats in the news, as well.
Heck! If paying for a physical election is an issue do a vote-by-mail! A mail-in only election would be far better than the ones that they had last month. Just send registered Democrats mail-in ballots that can be submitted over a month period. Have them confirm with a signature.
Shouldn’t be much more expensive than a mass-mailer that campaigns do dozens of times over before an election.
I’m kind of excited that my vote in WV’s Dem primary in May might actually have some meaning other than a token vote for once. It’s like a voting miracle for us.
Rather than just posting out the two votes in isolation, perhaps more is needed than a quickie way to show why I am supporting “my candidate” and ” you should too”.
Looking at the roll call votes, Clinton was not the only one to vote against it. Obama cast the same vote as his other Illinois senator Dick Durbin. Clinton cast the same nay vote as her counterpart Chuck Schumer from New York. Other people who voted against it were Joseph Biden and Chris Dodd. Is voting against that bill the reason Biden and Dodd were kicked out of the race already? I think not!
If we are going to be so picky to every moment in the Senate and whether they did it to advance their Presidential prospects, then let’s discuss Obama’s bill he wrote to make nuclear spill testing mandatory for the constituents in his Illinois. Then let’s discuss as per the NYT, how he watered it down in demands from the republicans and Exelon to a point that there was no teeth and mandatory announcements in his bill at all, and when it never passed, he touted it to a campaign crowd that it had been passed. Can we also look at how then Exelon, the nuclear leakers, donated big time to his campaign committee.
Can we please look at both sides of the candidate list equally???
And you are in a very interesting State the way things have been going! Are you a Potomac State leaning Obama…or an Appalachian State leaning Hillary! Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylavania are also going to be interesting…how much they’ll follow Illinois/Iowa vis-a-vis NY and Jersey!
Thanks for this post Siun. And for your thoughful comments. I’m already a big fan of David Rees -even more, upon reading the above. There is no getting past Hillary’s hawkishness.
Some of us haven’t voted yet! I think we need to let the process play out.
I feel the same way regarding Pennsylvania’s April primary.
With on that about Biden’s “holes”, Christy. No saints in politics. We pays our money and we takes our chances, but, as some of the people commenting have said, this a good litmus for making a judgement of what kind of human being a candidate is.
That vote by Clinton was consistent with her truckling to the rightwing in america, of which the evidence has been so consistent that it’s not worth wasting more bandwidth on it.
If you, or anyone else on here can put a link to Obama’s doing something that unconscionable, by all means, do it.
I DO apologize to you for saying:
“Stop the “Unity” nonsense until after we’ve chosen a candidate.”
That made it sound as I were accusing YOU of doing that on your post. I was not, and I should have prefaced that sentence with:
“We all need to…stop the “unity” nonsense…”
Because we do. Now, as a firm Obama supporter, I will GLADLY look at anything you, or anyone else puts up on here demonstrating HIS warts. We are smack in the middle of the most important primary season in decades. We do not need “unity” now.
We can have unity AFTER we pick a candidate, because the number of people idiotic enough to sit this out, or (I hope!) damnfool enough to support a third-party run by some democrat, will not be enough to hurt us.
I feel, in my BONES, that Hillary Clinton will be a political disaster for us. I think, with what I believe is every good reason, that she is the only candidate who can save the republican party from a defeat of historic proportions. And you are right; I don’t like her, for all of the reasons that I’ve posted on here, including the one that Siun was honest enough to put up.
But I WILL vote for her, if she’s nominated.
So; if anyone has a link to some vote that Obama made, that is equal to the cynical cruelty that Clinton displayed when she voted to continue the use of clusterbombs against civilian areas, then, let’s have it.
We all know who started out as the only sacred cow in this election. Now that a lot of us, with help today, from Siun, are asking “Where’s the beef?”
it’s nothing to be afraid of. For ANY candidate.
Limiting the debate about the two candidates, or inhibiting it by waving the “unity” banner, barring some real incivility, or threats, etc., favors the candidate with the worst track record of shmoozing with, and helping the people, who’ve brought us to the brink of disaster, and, as that October poll last year indicated so clearly, I think most of us know who that is.
Jane; I think pointing out the validity of what Siun posted, and it’s relevance to which candidate we want to represent us, is anything but irrational.
As was reminding everyone one of Clinton’s performance in the straw poll here.
Thanks for the excellent points that you raised. I do hope that whoever get elected as President, they will pledge to ban land mines and cluster bombs. But selectively picking up roll call votes to report is a great disservice to us all.
I pointed out many of the same issues with John Edwards’ votes on things like Yucca Flats, the Bankruptcy Bill, Mad Cow Disease Safety, Fuel Economy Standards, etc. Folks here didn’t care enough to consider Kucinich’s far better record and absence of ties to the Senate New Democrat Coalition (founded by Edwards and Lieberman).
I don’t think one vote should be an albatross for not voting for a candidate. I gave Edwards a lot of leeway after Kucinich dropped out. I’ll give Obama and Hillary some leeway as well. But it is important to look at such votes and try to understand why they voted the way they did. As yet I have yet to hear any reasonable explanation for the Cluster Bomb vote.
I do know that some ALP*CA measuring-sticks in terms of “support for Israel” rated Obama lower than Hillary in terms of their Pro-Israel stance because of this vote…which was advanced at the time Israel was dropping Cluster bomblets on Lebanon. Perhaps her votes on these issues have something to do with that.
Quoted from above:
If Obama comes in with a majority of elected delegates it may be very hard to allow the Florida and Michigan delegates to get credentialled. What might be interesting is to arrange some sort of second election or caucus in those two States and allow both candidates to campaign fairly and evenly.
I find this idea of having a do over offensive. First, in my opinion, it makes the voters of both states appear as if they didn’t know what they were doing. Turnout was big in both those states even though they knew they couldn’t count. Trying to say they need to redo it hoping the results would be different now than they were then is insulting. It makes it appear as if they only knew now what they knew then they would all somehow miraculously change their votes. Obama and Edwards willingly chose to take their names off the Michigan ballot while all the others left their names on. Florida’s votes came after the big touted win of Obama in SC, yet people say “if only they had been allowed to campaign…” as if the Floridians who went out en masse have no access to TV, radio, or computers and if they only saw Obama they would have all voted for him? I am sorry but you either take their votes as cast or don’t take them but don’t think you can get them to redo it all just because the results were for Hillary and you hope they will all now change their minds to Obama.
Sue@140:
Jane and Christy and the staff here have done the BEST job of picking up roll call votes, “selectively” and otherwise :o), of ANY progressive site on the internet.
They are WIZARDS for keeping track of all of the wretched sellouts of americans, such as the FISA voting.
Your taking Siun to task for her “great disservice” in doing the same thing to Clinton, is worthy of a few hoots, and a big smile. :o)
Perhaps the ‘partisans’ could compile a list of the ‘awfuls’ (reasonable and realistic, please) of their ‘unfavorite’which could be submitted for comparison, that we might have something similar to, though much shorter than Hugh’s list, so that the uncommitted may see the ‘worst’ there is. This will give us something to anticipate later, when the ‘others’ commence their smears and innuendos.
A form of ‘Being Prepared’, as it were.
I don’t want a list of their worst moments. I would like a list of both of their best moments. I’d like to see equal coverage of both rather than constantly hearing why I shouldn’t vote for Clinton. I would like to know why I should vote for Obama other than “change”. I don’t want to hear about Bill Clinton unless he is the candidate. I don’t want to hear about what Michelle Obama wears or how she is like Jackie Kennedy unless she is the candidate. I don’t want to be faced with either having to join a movement in a football stadium or be classed as unable to look to the future because I am older and white. I want platforms, I want to know what they will do. This is no campaign for change..just the same old garbage of down and dirty politicking dividing the democratic party on race and gender, age and income, etc.
That’s some top shelf snark there TSF. Top Shelf. *G*
Well a list of their ‘gooders’ would also be fine. Wheteher you or I or anyone likes or wants to hear the ‘worsts’, you may rest assured that your neighbors will be inundated from the ‘right’ with a tsunami of ‘real’ and ‘manufactured’ horrors, might it not be useful to be able to say, ‘these negative claims, unfortunately, are true, but these ‘claims’ are not merely extravagant, they are downright lies.’ And, of course, I was being a wee tab snarkish, because, I assure you, you shall hear a litany of ‘woes’ where-ever you goes. Beyond that, your last line speaks the absolute truth, and is the severest critism of all. And while I agree with that assessment, the line previous is, I fear, wishful hoping, but I quite concur with it as well.
The partisan and totally aristocratic AND bourgeoisie calls for UNITY from the GET go meant that the Blogosphere, and the MSM, never had to accred time and import to either Kuch, Or Edwards.
This call for UNITY has led us all to debating which of two candidates is less manipulated by The United Corporate States Of America’s Board Of Directors.
Any more of this unity and they’ll put us in them pens in the desert.
It’s this kind of unity that’s ruined this country and siphoned the money and control up to the 1%. And it contunues to to do, too . . . this UNITY, that so called progressive’s clamor for. I find it a SHRILL unity.
Like yon Cassius, it hath a lean and hungry look about it.
Because Edwards never got any support on this blog, and totally got ignored in terms of posts. Please don’t run strawman arguments up the flagpole with their pants down…especially when no one was demanding unity other than for their own argumentative purposes to smack it down.
Oh…there were a lot of demands for “unity”. :o)
When some of the people on here first began to put up tough questions about how “progressive” Clinton was, there were posts complaining about it. How we were “tearing the party apart”. For a while, the talking point was…that we were “using republican talking points”.
Which made no sense at all. NO one on here was accusing her of being too far left. It has been the other way around. Siun’s courageous thread about Clinton’s vote against banning the use of cluster-bombs in civilian areas, is the most recent example.
Also, I believe it was Jane who offered some criticism of her, in her thread about Clinton agreeing to a “debate” on Fox, on the 12th of this month. No “republican talking point” there, I don’t think. :o)
It’s tough for some people to face the truth: Hillary Clinton is disliked by progressives. She has minimum support from them, but her followers keep trying to buffalo the progressive blogs where she does so poorly, into supporting her, and, if not to stifle legitimate criticism of her, then to try to inhibit it.
They don’t want to talk about her electability, nor about her record on Iraq. Often, those of us who bring up those subjects, and sometimes post links to show what we’re talking about, especially with regard to Iraq, and to how much or how little she might be able to capitalize on the issue which is hanging over republican heads like a sword, are called “misogynists” for doing it. It’s the cheapest of cheap shots.
It is also very dis-unifying. :o)
TeddyinSanFran:
“If she knew then what she knows now, about land mines…”
Pert’ good coffee-spew! :o)
sorry……..but landmines are an effective weapon…..the issue is the cleanup afterwards…..we do have mines that will self-destruct after a period of time, so banning them outright is a problem for me………..
I am seriously opposed to Hillary. I don’t believe I hate her nor do I think it helpful to equate opposition with hate. I understand that during Bush’s SOTU when he said the surge worked, Hillary stood and applauded while Obama kept his seat and his hands at his side. In my book, that’s another reason to be for him and not her.
BTW women who vote for Hillary because she’s a woman are IMHO mistaken. That’s as bad a reason as voting for Obama because he’s black. Since I am neither black nor a woman, perhaps I do not understand the longing that makes gender and race a determining factor. Nevertheless they shouldn’t be.
Siun:
Good post, except that you missed the elephant in the room. The context for the vote was the wake of Israel’s war on Lebanon in summer 2006. Just to spell it out, this was about Clinton demonstrating fealty to the Israel lobby. Obama is imperfect, but he didn’t cave to them on this one.
Why would any responsible senator vote yes to an amendment that gives the President a waiver and permission to decide when and where cluster bombs can be deployed? That is exactly what S. 594 does.
Didn’t anyone read it?
The text of the Amendment follows (from Thomas.gov)
SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 5631, making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes; as follows:
At the end of title VIII, add the following:
Sec. 8109. No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.