I was watching MSNBC this morning and wondering how much the media thrall surrounding Barack Obama has been worth to his campaign.
Having seen Obama mania up close and personal the media didn't make it up, but the way they cover this race -- the language they use to talk about him, his charisma, his "youth movement," his momentum and his star qualilty all stand in sharp contrast to the way they pick apart every detail of Clinton.
They obsess over her in irrational and completely contradictory ways and just seem to find it unseemly that a middle aged woman won't quietly remove herself from the national stage and stop making a bunch of men under 35 uncomfortable with her very presence.
Stanley Fish, writing today in the NYT, gives the best description I've read of the Hillary Hating phenomenon:
I have been thinking about writing this column for some time, but I have hesitated because of a fear that it would advance the agenda that is its target. That is the agenda of Hillary Clinton-hating.
Its existence is hardly news — it is routinely referred to by commentators on the present campaign and it has been documented in essays and books — but the details of it can still startle when you encounter them up close. In the January issue of GQ, Jason Horowitz described the world of Hillary haters, many of whom he has interviewed. Horowitz finds that the hostile characterizations of Clinton do not add up to a coherent account of her hatefulness. She is vilified for being a feminist and for not being one, for being an extreme leftist and for being a “warmongering hawk,” for being godless and for being “frighteningly fundamentalist,” for being the victim of her husband’s peccadilloes and for enabling them. “She is,” Horowitz concludes, “an empty vessel into which [her detractors] can pour everything they detest.” (In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.)
This is not to say that there are no rational, well-considered reasons for opposing Clinton’s candidacy. You may dislike her policies (which she has not been reluctant to explain in great detail). You may not be able to get past her vote to authorize the Iraq war. You may think her personality unsuited to the tasks of inspiring and uniting the American people. You may believe that if this is truly a change election, she is not the one to bring about real change.
But the people and groups Horowitz surveys have brought criticism of Clinton to what sportswriters call “the next level,” in this case to the level of personal vituperation unconnected to, and often unconcerned with, the facts. These people are obsessed with things like her hair styles, the “strangeness” of her eyes — “Analysis of Clinton’s eyes is a favorite motif among her most rabid adversaries” — and they retail and recycle items from what Horowitz calls “The Crazy Files”: she’s Osama bin Laden’s candidate; she kills cats; she’s a witch (this is not meant metaphorically).
But this list, however loony-tunes it may be, does not begin to touch the craziness of the hardcore members of this cult. Back in November, I wrote a column on Clinton’s response to a question about giving driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. My reward was to pick up an e-mail pal who has to date sent me 24 lengthy documents culled from what he calls his “Hillary File.” If you take that file on faith, Hillary Clinton is a murderer, a burglar, a destroyer of property, a blackmailer, a psychological rapist, a white-collar criminal, an adulteress, a blasphemer, a liar, the proprietor of a secret police, a predatory lender, a misogynist, a witness tamperer, a street criminal, a criminal intimidator, a harasser and a sociopath. These accusations are “supported” by innuendo, tortured logic, strained conclusions and photographs that are declared to tell their own story, but don’t.
I get those emails. The guy is nothing if not thorough. And I agree with Fish's assessment:
Compared to this, the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry was a model of objectivity. When the heading of a section of the “Hillary File” reads “Have the Clintons ever murdered anyone?” — and it turns out to be a rhetorical question like “Is the Pope Catholic?” — you know that you’ve entered cuckooland.
Horowitz warns that as the campaign heats up, this “type of discourse will likely not stay on the fringes for long,” and he predicts that some of it will be made use of by Republican operatives. But he is behind the curve, for the spirit informing it has already made its way into mainstream media. Respected political commentators devote precious network time to deep analyses of her laugh. Everyone blames her for what her husband does or for what he doesn’t do. (This is what the compound “Billary” is all about.) If she answers questions aggressively, she is shrill. If she moderates her tone, she’s just play-acting. If she cries, she’s faking. If she doesn’t, she’s too masculine. If she dresses conservatively, she’s dowdy. If she doesn’t, she’s inappropriately provocative.
None of those who say and write these things is an official Hillary Clinton-hater (some profess to like and admire her), but they are surely doing the group’s work.
One almost prefers an up-front hater (although he tells Horowitz that he doesn’t like the word) like Dick Morris, who writes in a recent New York Post op-ed of the Clintons’ “reprehensible politics of personal destruction” (does he think he’s throwing bouquets?), and accuses them of invading the privacy of opponents, of blackmailing and threatening women, and of “whatever slimy tactics they felt they needed.” Morris calls Harold Ickes, a Clinton aide, a “hit man” for the president, and he calls the president “Hillary’s hit man.”
This is exactly the language of the most vicious anti-Hillary Web sites, and here it is baptized by its appearance in a major newspaper.
Horowitz observes that there is an “inexhaustible fertile market of Clinton hostility,” but that “the search for a unifying theory of what drives Hillary’s most fanatical opponents is a futile one.” The reason is that nothing drives it; it is that most sought-after thing, a self-replenishing, perpetual-energy machine.
The closest analogy is to anti-Semitism. But before you hit the comment button, I don’t mean that the two are alike either in their significance or in the damage they do. It’s just that they both feed on air and flourish independently of anything external to their obsessions. Anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews and anti-Hillaryism doesn’t need Hillary, except as a figment of its collective imagination. However this campaign turns out, Hillary-hating, like rock ‘n’ roll, is here to stay.
I apologize in advance for quoting Fish's post in its entirety but I think it deserves to be read. If Hillary Clinton does pull this thing off, she will have done so against the seemingly insurmountable weight of 16 years of being the target of misogny and hatred that have focused into a narrative that has also been appropriated by many on the so-called "left" to take her down -- and certainly by the media.
I guess she didn't get the memo -- middle aged women are supposed to dry up, go home and be invisible.
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Jane!
And they’re making a big deal about here “crying” again.
“her”
It’s the war, stupid.
Vote Obama.
I kind of like her eyes. She’ll be fine if she wins the nomination, so will Obama. We’re going to completely kick the GOP’s ass in November. (Such a longgg post, didn’t finish it yet . . . .)
The pundits and writers are enraged at the idea that they don’t get to choose the candidate. They believe they know best, that THEY are the story and that everyone else should just shut up. Not gonna happen.
I’m for Obama, but I certainly agree with the essence of your post. It is simply mind boggling the irrational hatred directed at her. I’ve got serious issues with her war vote, but if she gets the nomination I’ll gladly vote for her vs. any of the Double Gitmo, 100 year occupation bunch.
Unfortunately (for me) every Hillary haters feels like a Sha-hater. (No, not literally!).
I grew up in the 60’s, was one of a few women to attend a mid-west college, went into business and suffered the slings and arrows of trying to make it “in a man’s world” (specifically advertising in Detroit in the late 60’s for one of the auto companies.) (Good news…I succeeded!)
I hate the haters in a way that is not healthy. They pick at her clothes. Her voice. Her hair. Her legs. Her husband. And then they simply make up shit about her.
Quite frankly, I have become a rabid Hillary supporter - simply because of the hate that is being slung at her. GO HILLARY!!!
I agree that Hillary has had a tough time, and that the press, for reasons that continue to escape me, wants to take her down. That granted, I still think the Dems have a better chance with Obama heading the ticket than her. On issues of competency, I don’t see much of a difference. It’s nice she knows all the stuff she knows, but she isn’t supposed, actually, to execute all that stuff. That’s what the President hires cabinet secretaries to do. It’s very good that, like her husband, she understands the issues at considerable depth. I don’t doubt that Obama can acquire the same mastery in short time. We can’t take the present idiot in the White House as an example of an untried executive. As has been noted many times, JFK had no executive experience prior to becoming elected, but he hired good people and listened to them.
I think Mrs Clinton would make a superb president. But she drags down the ticket, and would be presiding over a mixed to hostile Congress. That’s the bottom line the super-delegates should be pondering.
Anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews and anti-Hillaryism doesn’t need Hillary, except as a figment of its collective imagination.
Call it what it is: misogyny. If Pelosi, or any woman other than Libby Dole were running for president, they would say the same things about her.
Misogyny runs deeper than racism, or at least, the language and psychology of racism has been more thoroughly discredited. Of course, black men got the right to vote long before women did.
So true. I get extremely annoyed when I see people with whom I agree politically swallow the Hillary-haters’ lingo and attitude toward her. (And I voted for Edwards, just before he dropped out, so this isn’t blind allegiance.
I expect Republicans to be vile and dishonest about her. I hate it when Democrats do the same thing.
The Pity vote will not work in the fall. I voted for Bill 2x and have been a loyal democrat for years. My dislike of Senator Clinton is her playing politics as usual with this election. Her ties to special interests and corporate lobbyist is another nail in her coffin. We don’t need more business as usual. I heard the same crap from her husband in 92 and where are we now. That’s why CHANGE is not just a catchphrase but something that you can feel and touch.
BTW…the crying thing, enough already. I can understand emotions, but no one else is crying on the campaign trail every 2 weeks. I though she was tough and tested?
Oh Jane are you gonna get it now. Don’t you know that you are not allowed to say anything about Hillary Clinton that isn’t snide, nasty, or positively demented? And much of this rabid hatred is coming from the left. Many of the worst and nastiest smears are coming at her from the left.
Media has conditioned people like Pavlov’s dogs and just the word “Clinton” sends some people into an irrational rage. Ask many of them why they hate her and they can’t tell you. Some just parrot remarks about her vote for the war or the Patriot Act. (Why don’t they hate the rest of the Democrats that voted for the war or the Patriot Act?) It obsessional, it’s irrational and it’s all over Left Blogostan. It’s also disgraceful and disgusting. As a woman, an older woman, it is also frightening. I knew women weren’t much respected in this country for all our touting of “Mom and Apple Pie”, but I had no idea we were so despised.
If I had one word to describe Hillary’s abilities, it would be “competence”. That’s not to say that I like her politics–I don’t, in general. But competence is the antithesis of GW, and that’s something important.
The MSM has been making up shit about our Dem candidates for my entire life. Since the ‘04 election, I think we have either learned to ignore the made up shit, or we have learned to fight back instantly and aggressively. Or there is an entire new cohort of voters (18-29?) who just never listen to or read the “news.” One way or the other, the made up shit is not having the same effect this time around.
The Hillary haters hate Hillary because she is married to Bill and in their minds that makes it alright.
Excellent post. I’m an old white guy. I seriously haven’t made up my mind but will support whichever candidate the Democrats nominate. However, every time I begin to consider Obama I get a load of the vomit against Hillary and tend to come out fighting. We listened to this primordial hatred from the day the Clinton’s came into office.
I believe it would be helpful to differentiate enthusiasm by voters for Barack Obama from MSM hate-mongering. I watched the Obama rally from UCLA on C-Span yesterday afternoon and was deeply impressed by the five women on the stage. I remembered some of the feelings I had as a much younger man when the late Bobby Kennedy was campaigning for the Democratic nomination.
Jane!!
Good Heavens!
You don’t actually read the ‘Fish’ do you?
Most times he’s best just left wrapped up in them old newspapers.
Why I wouldn’t ever freeze him, it wouldn’t improve his ossification and it’s not worth the energy.
My admiration for your intestinal fortitude grows every sinlge day.
If Obama had her qualifications, I would be for him in a New York minute. If Hillary had Obama’s qualifications, I would laugh her off the stage.
Obama’s supporters just want to fall in love. Hillary represents the adult that says to them that you don’t even know him. They reply, but I love him. It is “Faith Based Politics”. I have had enough of this politics of being ruled by the “gut”. Charisima is hardly the equal of knowledge, experience, and common sense.
People hate her because she stands in their way of being “in love”. Obama’s supporters have now tried to tie him into being the second coming. Remember when the Bushies believed he was ordained by God. This is about the same thing. It is so troubling, to say the least.
I want to like Hillary but when I think of the Clinton machine in the White House, I think its time for a change. I think that the world will think more of us having the Obamas.
All this hate stuff is a distraction from the real issue: Corporate Feudalism. That way, the top get to do their thing unopposed, unrecognized.
Huffpo has become an Obama fan site - really sad to see our own buy into the old Republican talking points about Hillary. I supported Edwards. I didn’t like Hillary’s Iraq vote but I don’t feel it would have made an actual difference in the result, so I’m not holding it against her. I just can’t choose form over substance.
I like Hillary — it’s Bill I can’t stand.
I wish Hillary didn’t have Bill’s baggage, and the foaming-at-the-mouth pack of rabid wingnut hyenas nipping at her heels.
While there is no question the wingnuts will throw everything they have at either Hillary or Obama, they’ve already imprinted their negative image of Hillary in public opinion. Like it or not, 16 years of wingnut hate have left a mark.
All in all, I’m feeling better about Hillary than I have in a while — if only her last name wasn’t Clinton.
This concert will be streamed tonight for Obama. My husband is a Dead Head, Im not but I love the music.
http://www.iclips.net/deadheadsforobama.php
I liked the post, but I do have one issue with Mr. Fish’s asssessment.
Unlike those of us who hate Bush, most of the Clinton haters have, at best, a tenuous grasp on reality.
Hatred of Bush is founded in fact: how he led us to war, his mismanagement of it, his lack of concern for New Orleans (or anyone else), the signing statements, spying, torture, etc. etc. etc.
Most hatred of Hillary is founded on the wild-eyed stupidity of those who think Rush Limbaugh is a journalist. These folks think Hillary personally killed Vince Foster. They think she’s a lesbian. Etc. etc. etc.
There really is no comparison between the two.
This is from today’s “The Swamp” (sorry, no link). The effort to push this into the MSM will be unrelenting, and will probably succeed. Also, the first comment in the post is a doozy-sums up Jane’s point perfectly.
“Hillary Clinton cries in Connecticut
by Jason George
NEW HAVEN, Conn. – Sen. Hillary Clinton teared up this morning at an event at the Yale Child Study Center, where she worked while in law school in the early 1970s.
Penn Rhodeen, who was introducing Clinton, began to choke up, leading Clinton’s eyes to fill with tears, which she wiped out of her left eye. At the time, Rhodeen was saying how proud he was that sheepskin-coat, bell-bottom-wearing young woman he met in 1972 was now running for president.”
I guess we are self-identifying here because age and gender define us to a certain extent whether we like it or not. So, I’m an old white guy, too. And a DFH when I’m commenting online. And I do think what the DLC did to the Dems was a disgusting sell-out to corporate interests. But I don’t hate Hillary, I think she is a great campaigner, she has plenty of war-room support to fend off the made-up shit, she has a billion surrogates, and if she wins the nomination I think women will be thrilled, no matter what they have been saying in exit polls.
Just curious. For the “she takes down the ticket” argument — if Obama wins the nod, do you think that Rezko isn’t going to be on your screen every other second? That the “inexperience” everyone finds so fresh isn’t going to be used against him? That the Republicans are going to care that you call them racists, or that the media will echo those sentiments?
In a nutshell — do you think the thrall will last?
It’s all Limpball’s fault. The relentless Clinton bashing on the radio in the 90’s infiltrated everywhere. “Slick Willy”…stuff like that…and Limpball’s constant whining about “it’s all for the children”….
He really helped install Bushco and destroy the nation.
O/t -
Has anyone else been listening to the WH budget director’s presser?
Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that Stanley Fish approved of invading Iraq? Correct me if I’m wrong.
This is not the first time, incidentally, that he has been so chivalrous toward Clinton:
(from http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/.....ure-sorry/)
“This brings us to where we were always going, the issue of Hillary Clinton’s obligation in the present with respect to an act she performed in the past. Senator Clinton’s detractors accuse her of having voted for the Iraq war and therefore of being at least partly responsible for the mess we now find ourselves in; they say she should apologize. She replies, No, I voted to authorize the use of force in the event that all other options were explored and proved futile. Here is what she said during the Senate debate in October, 2002. “A vote for [the resolution] is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president and we say to him – Use these powers wisely and as a last resort.” In her view he did neither, and it is he, not she, who is responsible for the present state of affairs. In short, she is admitting to putting her faith in the wrong person (she has said, “I take responsibility for that vote”), but refusing to accept the blame for what he subsequently did, that is, refusing to take the blame for the war.”
Mishun Akomplyshed
My husband is a Dead Head, Im not but I love the music.
What does that mean?
Sorry Starbuck, but Corporate Feudalism is a different symptom of the same disease. Hegemony is the problem.
Jane Hamsher:
You should have apologized for quoting Fish, period.
There Ya go -
That ‘truth’ stuff again -
Since you are ‘equal-opportunity’ in your comment, both ’sides’ is not amused.
But I am!
We married two years ago and he has followed the Dead for decades. I have really just started liking them.
I don’t either one of them and I won’t get shamed into changing my mind. I she gets nominated I’ll vote for her, that’s the best I can do.
So much of Clinton’s coverage is shallow and misogynistic which is why I go to Chris Matthews for all my Hillary coverage.
I’m not a hater, although there are many. I thought her comeback in NH was backlash against a wave of misogyny that Tweety et al unleashed. I have often wondered about the disproportionate political vitriol she attracts. I find it particularly distasteful when the vitriol comes from Democrats.
However:
I do think her IWR vote was craven. I do not want any more dynastic politics. I do think inspiration matters.
Obviously I’ve decided for Obama.
Got it. “Truckin up To Buffalo” or “The Grateful Dead Movie” DVD’s, they give a pretty good feel for them.
It’s a longstanding Republican tactic — try to discredit the speaker rather than deal with what’s being said, and its adoption in the service of rank misogyny practiced by those who hide behind just about anything to justify it is one of the hallmarks of this race.
I went to one concert after Jerry and I have never seen so many people who liked each other in my life. Felt good.
Explain a bit more because I couldn’t disagree more with that statement. Why do people feel compelled to compare misogyny and racism? Both are horrible, both exist and neither can be said to be worse than the other. I, as a latina, certainly face both…Hillary wouldn’t…my father may have it worse as a latino male in a society that is anti-immigrant (I am generalizing here).
I guess my point is that such an argument angers me to my root because it the statement in itself says that a white women has it worse than any person of color, which during black history month is especially insensitive.
Hillary’s nomination and eventual election will be a kick in the balls to every pygmy-dicked pasty white man in America and the bitter wives and daughters who suffer from their insecurities. It’s that simple. I am ambivalent about Mr. Obama, and not always in agreement with Mrs. Clinton. However, it is time for this country to get the fuck over its “Girl Hater Guys Club” mentality. It’s just so sickeningly childish.
Chris Matthews, I’m talking to you!
I agree. I didn’t hate Bush initially, and even sort of pitied him in a Dan Quayle sort of way. It was when I fully understood the spoiled arrogance, lack of interest world affairs, self centeredness, nasty bullying personality, and damage done to the U.S., at home and abroad, that I would classify my feelings as, possibly, hatred. Maybe I’m just coloring the characature with my own imaginings, but I don’t think so.
On the other hand, I heard people I worked with expressing hatred of Hillary before the Clinton’s even came into office and they knew nothing about her, except perhaps that she had originally gone by the name Rodham.
Explain what you mean by ‘hegemony,’ please.
Thus it was the GWB became president.
Yea, the Clinton’s never engage in any slimy tactics.
Misogyny is alive and well in every race and ethnic group. I like to remind readers that when Shirley Chisholm ran as a candidate for president, she was asked if it was more difficult running as a woman or a black? Without hesitating she said, “As a woman.” She continued by stating that the black caucus in politics rejected her and trivialized her positions as much as the white men. Men did not accept her, regardless of race or ethnic group.
This runs deep. Yes, there are some men out there who are much more accepting of women in positions of power but they are few and far between.
I still prefer John Edwards and am now in a dilemma. I find myself defending Hillary because I hear the hatred rather than stating the issues that are objectionable. Bigotry and hate is alive and well in America. I also find myself defending Obama for the same reasons. I get hateful e-mails about him that have no other purpose but to incite violence. So, I find myself defending him, as well.
It is against the law to physically attack Hillary and beat her within an inch of her life but the deep seeded desire is there so instead, she is beaten up verbally. There is no law against that. Besides, if enough hate is generated towards either of these candidates, perhaps some twisted mind, of which there are many, will do the greater deed for them.
A Miracle!
Well if it is, I would suggest mentioning the Keating Five and John McCain in all of the alternating non-Rezko seconds.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that it will not happen. He’s St. John McCain and it’s always good for the Republicans.
It is misogyny, Xenos, but it’s not just misogyny. It began as a cult of hatred of WJC. When Hillary got swept up into that, the pea-brains began piling anti-female stereotypes onto her, as the easiest form of attack; then expanded all of the nutsoid conspiracy theories around Bill so she could get included too. It was a resonance between bone-deep misogyny and skull-thick hatred of all things “liberal”. I agree, any Democratic woman would be manacled by a similar set of can’t-win misogynistic double binds from the press. But HRC is uniquely hated. Probably the only historical analogy is the firestorm that would have enveloped Eleanor Roosevelt if she’d been able to make a run for the White House. And Eleanor never had to cope with Savage Nation.
I’m convinced Obama is the better candidate, for a longish list of well hashed over reasons. Still and all, it’s been an eye opener for this sixty something male to learn how deeply unacceptable race-baiting has become in 21st century America, at the same time as blatant gender-baiting seems to get a pass with both the media and most of the male half of the population.
Total agreement here. I can’t believe how the Obama supporters are now trashing Joe Wilson for supporting Hillary and Paul Krugman for supporting her health care plan (versus Obama’s; he actually favored Edwards’s plan over Hil’s and Obama’s — and so did I). And hearing Dems calling Bill Clinton a racist is something I never expected to experience in my lifetime.
Hegemony:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony
Which is another reason I am so fond of them. You wold never catch Bill playing the race card or, given Bill’s non-inhalation history, some staffer bringing up drugs or other youthful pecadillos. That’s because they have class, of a certain kind.
I’m so glad to see this addressed.
Hatred of women simply permeates our culture, and yes, I take it personally. I take Hillary hatred personally.
Whenever I hear a Democrat saying something against her that I’ve heard from Rush Limbaugh listeners years ago, I just marvel at his reach. What a job he’s done, to get Dems to repeat his message.
Sexist pig
Right on. Michelle Obama’s speech yesterday was more powerful than Barack’s coming out speech at the ‘04 Convention, to me at least. I think I’d rather have her running than him. Last year, I was making serious efforts to figure out ways to get Pelosi in the White House (not so sure about that now…). My family and I are seriously contemplating a move so we can work on Cindy Sheehan’s campaign right now. FDL has become my first source of “news” and commentary, thanks to the writings of incredible women.
Having said this, I really dislike Hillary and her husband. I was warming up to her leading up to Iowa, thinking she was “inevitable” as the BigMedia has been saying for over 5 years, but her campaign’s actions since Iowa have reminded me why I disliked the Clintons in the first place. Their ACTIONS, and I can make a very long list of specific actions as to why I feel this why. It’s not blind hatred as some claim.
Making the distinction between BigMedia’s misogynistic coverage of her and people like myself is important. Lumping people like myself into the same category of the Tweety’s and Timmeh’s is not helping to reduce society’s misogyny, or helping Democrats win elections IMHO.
It is too bad that philosophy 101, or ‘logic’ is no longer in vogue, false arguments of all sorts, are the bread and butter of the right. including, the ‘big stick’ argument, ‘You are with us, or against us.’
We are not talking ‘rocket science’ grasp, simply a basic appreciation of ‘reason’ and ‘honesty’ two ‘quaint’ concepts already out to pasture, if not already knackered.
It’s not possible that people have formed their opinions of the Clinton’s based on observing them is it?
OT - Severe weather, including tornadoes and possibly power outages are forecast for a number of midwest and southern Super Tuesday states. How will this affect voting on voting machines in sites without a generator or UPS? Do states have contingency plans (other than paper ballots) for such events? Would it include a rescheduling of the primary?
I’m not clear on what you’re saying. Is mine the “longstanding Republican tactic”, that of discrediting the speaker (Fish)?
I’ll take it that’s what you mean, to which I’ll answer: context is not irrelevant (see #32). If you quote Stanley Fish, you should expect commenters glancing familiar with his oeuvre to respond with ad hominem arguemnts directed at him, no less than they would at a David Brooks or someone similar.
By the way, a propos of the fawning coverage Obama gets, that was what made me suspicious of him to begin with. The best explanation of that came from Matthew Yglesias: the MSM and commenters like Brooks, for example, praise him with the hope and expectation that he will lose to Clinton for the nomination: it’s an early start towards villainizing her by comparison with the saintly Obama.
Fish:
Glad to know that I can ignore all the Hillary-hating emails.
Now if I only knew what to do with the other pile of emails I get — with their “supporting documentation” — saying things like Barack is a Muslim, refuses to say the pledge of allegiance, and was sworn in on a Koran.
Thanks, Jane.
Sad to say, it’s not as if choosing one of these two candidates will remove garbage like this from the political discourse.
I blame Lee Atwater and his disciple, Karl Rove.
You know, I REALLY wanted to be able to support her for one reason only: because she’s a woman. The deeper I looked into her politics and policy positions, however, I just could not, would not. I agonized for a long while over my decision to support Obama. I felt as though I was betraying a life-long dream, to see a woman in the White House. I still have this dream and desire. Senator Clinton is not the woman I feel would be the best woman for that position. Not right now. Maybe never.
Gotsha, and I agrees. Thanks for linkerage.
Yeah Hillary gets the shit kicked out of her daily—and unfairly in most cases.
I was on a long airplane ride saturday and read the article about her in New Yorker. I found it excellent and recommend it to anyone who wants to get a little deeper into the story of this woman.
I suspect that she would be the better president- not sure if she’s the most electable. In any event- both dem candidates are strong.
I don’t hate Hillary, I like her. I don’t like what she did with that Iraq vote and her refusal to rise above it and simply declare.
I was mislead like so many Americans. I should not have been because I am a senator and I was supposed to exercise due diligence. I made some assumptions which not only turned out to be wrong, but allowed a series of lies to follow on and led us into a disastrous attack on a sovereign nation. I made a mistake and I won’t let that happen again, certainly as far as the use of force.
But she won’t admit the error because it shows that she was naive, too trusting of Bush, weak on terror or some other “perceived” flaw.
I don’t hate her, and she is smart and would be a decent president assuming she can keep the corporations out of the white house and focus on the needs of the people. Same with Obama.
We’ll see.
Anyone whose entire staff and husband smugly felt she was a shoe-in needed a major lesson in humility. May the American people finally succeed in giving her one. Vote Obama.
But some people hated them BEFORE he took office. I don’t think that most people even know why they hate her. But I can assure you that it has something to do with her being a woman. If you have never felt that kind of pressure you have no idea what it’s like. Ever been fired from a job because you wouldn’t sleep with a customer?
This post by DHinMI sums up my support of Obama —
Why I Want Barack Obama to Be the Democratic Nominee for President
It’s a long and thoughtful post, that I almost completely agree with. Although I have concerns about both Obama and Hillary, I will support our nominee whoever it may be — but tomorrow, I’ll caucus for Obama.
Droll, Hugh, Droll. But, true.
I moderate a political chatroom at a small chat site, usually no more than two or three people talking at a time (though we have lurkers that don’t post). This morning I posted something to the effect of “so someone tell why in tomorrow’s primary I should vote for Clinton over Obama, or vice-versa” (I was an Edwards fan all the way, now thinking he’d make a GREAT attorney general)
Last week when someone asked a similar question, one woman (a McCain fan) said she could never vote for Hillary because, and I quote, “She thinks she’s so much smarter than everybody else” Ooookaaaaay…
So this is a direct cut and paste from the response I received to that question this morning.
~AKA~
Kes..you are in a pickle as Hillary is a gal…I would go with Obama..that way if he wins you wont have to hear about Hillary and all the bad stuff associated with her..day after day after day!!
[Ignore all messages from ~AKA~ ][02/04/2008 15:44:29]
WTF???
Reminds me of something I read not long ago - some people couldn’t get a clue if they carried clue bait, painted themselves in clue scent, and walked into the middle of herd of clues during clue season!
How’s that manly saying go? Better to be strong and wrong…
I reject the false balance implicit in lumping all Hillary-hating into one barrel.
Hillary is my Senator. I hate her no less than I hate my other Senator, Charles Schumer, and that makes me neither a misogynist in the first instance nor an anti-Semite in the second.
People who hate Hillary because of her complicity in the death of Vince Foster don’t have their facts straight. People who hate her because of her (still unapologetic) complicity in the deaths of half a million Iraqis do.
I have no brief for Obama, either. He may have criticized attacking Iraq before entering the Senate, but he glommed onto Lieberman once he got there and has helped fund the war ever since. And his healthcare plan sucks worse than Clinton’s, when what we need — and don’t have — is a candidate supporting Conyers’s Medicare for All bill.
I heard Michele Obama being interviewed today. She was asked if Hillary won the Democratic nomination, would she and Barack support her. Michele said that she didn’t know if she could support her. It would be something she would have to think about long and hard. And then in the next sentence she said they would of course support whomever the Democrats nominated. It was a very clever tactic. And very nasty. But if called out on what she said, she could say that she said they would support the nominee of the Democrats. Clever. Nasty. A Passive agressive way to behave. Troubling. Imagine if Hillary said she didn’t know if she would support the Democratic nominee. Scary!
I couldn’t disagree with you more. I think they GOP has something truly reprehensible in store for Obama. In fact, I see evidence already of their fall campaign against him. The narrative is already in the news but most people haven’t made the connection yet. And if I’m right, there won’t be a damn thing we can do about it. When we see it start up in earnest, the opposing voices will be put on mute again and the blogs will be the only ones telling the truth.
The wingers desperately want Obama to win. Yeah, they hate Clinton, but her numbers will improve once she wins the nomination. And, really, this is about the limit of what they can throw at her.
Obama? Not a prayer.
And for the record, I like Obama’s policies over Clinton’s - but I just have to shake my head over some of the nasty comments thrown out, especially by people who think just because I like Obama, I automatically agree with their assessment of Clinton.
Would you have felt “torn” about voting for Margaret Thatcher over whoever she beat?
Don’t presume there’s “no difference” between the two remaining Demcoratic candidaates. There’s a big difference between Clinton the two main primary opponents she’s faced: she supported the war and has not recanted her vote. This is RFK-Humphrey redux. This boo-hooing about the slights she’s suffered exasperates me. I think it’s counterpropaganda (maybe not on JH’s part, personally) meant to “humanize” this warmonger or something for the benefit of Democratic primary voters.
What kind of pressure is that you are talking about, being a woman? I’m sure you wouldn’t have asked if you didn’t have a pretty good idea I am not.
But Senator Obama has said all along that he would support Senator Clinton if she was nominated. I suggest you offer the alternate question to Former President Clinton and pay attention to his response????
Shirley Chisholm said:
…………
………………..
link
Here is another take on the appalling sexism Hillary has had to endure.
http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html
It is rerally quite good.
You must post some warning when turning loose humor of the sort contained in that last line!
More, please, just let me prepare (gasp- oh I can’t see- my eyes -full of laugh tears -). Okay, i’m gonna expect that sort of stuff from you fron now on!
For what it is worth…
I’m an Edwards supporter who will vote for Hillary tomorrow
in Mass…
There is just something about Obama’s speeches that turns me off…
and I think a woman prez would be good for the country…
Is it nasty because she is the wife of someone running for office? Was it honesty or something more nefarious? I had the same conversation with myself when Edwards dropped out. Then I came to my senses and realized that is is bigger than some candidate, it is about the SCOTUS, it is about healthcare, the economy, etc. I don’t know, I have never been any good at reading minds and can’t guess as to why people say what they do.
When Bill Kristol can say on national television, without impunity, that white women are a problem that aren’t going away - something is radically horribly wrong. It’s institutionalized misogyny.
Hillary Clinton is a brilliant woman who could run circles, on one foot, around william the bloody kristol, Tucker Carlson, Pumpkin head and the rest of those friggin blow hards. They’re scared shitless of her. And if anyone wonders if Bill would be pulling the strings, they’re mistaken. She’s as tenacious and capable as she is brilliant.
Jane, have you read THIS on the Hillary hating? Lily15 linked to it here during late night.
I do know that you are a male. I asked if, as a male, you could understand what it is like to be a woman.
Of course, you can’t, but believe me, it isn’t pretty. To feel that no matter what you do you are not acceptable.
beat me to it by 10 seconds!
Here’s a fairy tale for ya:
If Michelle Obama was running against Barack, I think Michelle would win in a landslide. Seriously. She’s so incredible that I think she could overcome the overt misogyny within American society. Hillary is not a good candidate and as a result, has lost a Rudi-like amount of ground in the last month. Sexism may play some role this, but her failings play a much greater role IMO.
I’ll try to issue a spew alert from now on ; - )
You don’t even mention her war vote here. That’s the difference between the two candidates. Is it really not enough of a difference?
You can even forget the moral dimension of this criminal vote. From a sheerly tactical political perspective, where does that leave her on the stage against a Republican, much less John McCain? Her lying concealment of her enthusiasm is the worst of both worlds: she is wrong on the substance of this momentous issue, and at the same time has to wheedle and obfuscate about her reasons for voting that way.
Yes, I think that is possible.
With all due respect, that she can only speak for herself. I don’t remeber seeing women being lynched or actively hunted by their own gender (albeit of a different race). I’m not contesting that misogyny is bad, just that somehow it is better or worse than racism
As an African American male within slapping distance of 50, I never thought I’d see a serious candidate for president that looked like me in my lifetime.
Iowa changed that for me and it seems like many others. However, if Obama was simply a dark skinned Dubya, I still wouldn’t vote for him.
No matter who gets the Dem nomination the reich wing smear machine will go into overdrive. Precisely because of points made in the beginning of this post Sen. Clinton faces challenges (undeservedly to be sure) that Sen. Obama won’t. It is undeniable the new energy he brings to the race.
That said, either one of them would be a tremendous improvement over the last 7 plus years. Just having grown ups that respect the constitution again would be a refreshing change.
I find all those things very troubling, too.
As an undecided former Edwards supporter…. I go back and forth between the two….. I understand the misogyny having experienced it… as the mother of two non-white kids….. there is another issue…..
Platform wise they seem pretty even….. yes there is a nitpick here or there but on a whole they are both GREAT candidates compared to what is on the Right… shudder McCain (my senator)
The Clinton hate is deeply ingrained into our culture becoming urban legend and anything they throw out about Obama will be a new battle everyday…. It is hard to decide that we can develop tools to fight the known Clinton negatives but the surprise Obama stuff will need a nimble rapid response team.
I was really torn about voting for either Hillary or Obama. Hillary is more a capable leader with years of experience to back her up. Yet Obama has real potential to come out of this whole campaign as a winner because you can see potential it’s not unrealistic assessment.
Even though I would have initially wanted Edwards to still be in the race he has dropped out. Part of me is still wants to vote for him still yet there is still one fundamental thing here…
I want the Dems to win…
Then Edwards can potentially be the running mate. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
Call it what you will.
A rose by any other name….
The question on the table is: What are we going to do about it? Obsess over who hates who and why? Is this how to spend out time?
Hegemony or C.F., the players are the worker bees running the show, and the results of their actions and statements gives food to argue among ourselves about subjects utterly unimportant to those actually running the show, who then go on to do their thing with minuscule interference.
There are only two conditions today. Either you work for Feudalism or are the Feudalists.
I’m not worried about either candidate’s ability to counter the slime machine . Hillary has had to deal with it for years and so has Obama. This is not his first public office and she has been in the public eye for decades. Both are quite capable of holding their own.
How much is sexism? How much misogyny? How much from too much exposure to right wing radio? How much is about her record and her statements? How much about the way her campaign and surrogates have acted in the past few months? How much because she’s a former first lady?
Let’s try to get it all straight please.
What’s the point of asking me a question you already know the answer to? There are things that have happened to me because I was male. Does it piss me off, yea, but I’m not going to let it ruin my life.
I’ve had the unique opportunity to be a very close observer of Senator Obama. My job afforded me this remarkable benefit. I think Senator Clinton is a puppet for many masters. I don’t like her AUMF vote. I don’t like her so-called ‘universal’ healthcare mantra, because it’s not. I don’t like how she has raised her feminist flag and then tolerated multiple instances of mysogyny from her husband. I do appreciate one thing about her though. She made me realize the type of woman I don’t ever want to become.
I’m much more in line with the type of woman Michelle Obama appears to be.
Oh, that is not your common everyday spew stuff, Kestral, I remember your poetic musings from so time ago. You are well above there merely common, in whatever you post.
It is just that nerves are frayed, many folks are unhappy, and perspective and humor have largely fled.
‘G’
I voted for Edwards. If I had to revote today, it would be Hillary.
I cannot stop thinking that the press has the “goods” on Obama and they are just waiting until he gets the nomination. The Bush Administration has been listening to Obama’s calls for 8 years. And if there is anything, it will come out after he is nominated. Just my opinion.
There hate of Hillary is so apparent to me.
It would be great to take a poll of Edwards-supported firepups
to see how they will break for tomorrow
I am troubled by the idea that Hillary was “for” the war and Obama wasn’t. He was NOT in the Senate and hindsight gave him an opportunity to be against. How would he have voted if he had been in the Senate - remember that Lieberman was his mentor? I don’t dislike either candidate and will vote for whoever. I voted for Edwards before he dropped out and am glad I did. I want the one who can win - don’t care who it is.
I think a key issue has been left out here. The “hatred” of Hillary is in some ways a reaction against the notion that Democrats somehow MUST vote for her because she’s a woman and/or her last name is Clinton.
I’ve spent a good deal of time at these two links.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
http://hillaryclinton.com/issues/
After Edwards dropped out, I can comfortably support Obama now, based on the details spelled out at these two sites.
Do you know if that South Park stuff is true? Had you ever heard about it before? Now, that stunned me.
And he treated female staff with such respect??!!
new thread.
He was running for the Senate at the time. Just adding a piece of info here as I was corrected with this info on another board.
Obama here, former Edwards supporter.
Wow!!
some of us don’t get to vote for another month
It didn’t ruin my life either but it always tiresome. I can’t believe that in 2008 we are STILL dealing with this.
Good idea.
I pick that up from her too.
Your final point has been on my mind a lot lately, too. This is the calm before the storm (if you like that, I have a bunch more cliches I can toss out) for Obama. The GOPers are just sitting back, waiting to see if he’s the one they need to unload on. And once they start, Obama is going to be a busy guy trying to stomp out the fires. This is just a guess on my part, but I expect him to think, once the attacks begin, that he can just ignore them and ride his wave untouched. But we all saw how well that worked out for Kerry when the swiftboaters surfaced. I also suspect that Obama will be petulant when the attacks start, and that won’t play well anywhere.
I was tending to believe that the Clinton’s must fight dirtier than the Obama side, just based on the weight of what other Democrats were saying. It may be true, but the Obama fax mischaracterization of HRC’s statement about garnishing wages for health is one “aw shit” for their side. It seems the high stakes effect all of them.
Another difference.
Vote for Hillary! She’s the cluster-bomb candidate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....84811.html
(The writer of this post is actually hopefully naive or just ignorant, as the vote came in the wake of Israel’s war on Lebanon and its sowing of cluster bombs in the south).
Many people prefer to vote based on long-conditioned emotions not educated fact.
hindsight gave him an opportunity to be against.
That is not correct. He was an Illinois State Senator and he gave this speech BEFORE the war.
We all, individually, seem to have our own private lexicons, but I confess that yours dovetails with my concept of the ‘Divine Right’ of money, today extant: tomorrow, we must have a change. Will we get ‘it’?
So far, we have Obama 1, Edwards 1, primary to be held later, 1.
A dead heat!
The experience factor has never been one for me. I got to see and hear his policy and politics up-close and personal. It was amazing to say the least…and I was working for the other party at the time.
At least them what got some ‘participation’ possibility for tomorrow.
And them who’ve made up their minds - looks as if quite a few haven’t reached the point of sanguinity, however….
What’s the logic of this argument. Hillary voted for AUMF but the two are the same on the issue because, what?…Obama presumably would have voted for it? This kind of argument gives her all the benefit of the doubt and Obama none, and, furthermore, ignores how Obama has directly addressed the subject in the past week.
As I said above, even if you think this is true (that Obama shouldn’t be credited for a non-vote), her vote itself is an incredible hindrance not only towards her general election prospects, but, more importantly, the prospect of ending the war. That’s not even addressing the abundant evidence that she actively supported the idea of invading and wishes to continue occupying Iraq.
Please rethink this argument.
And moderators, please allow me to restate: It’s about the war, stupid.
I am with you Raven… I could only vote for Edwards in the primary for 2-5 even though he has suspended his campaign!
…And be a little more skeptical. What, precisely, in nuts and bolts terms, does it mean that Joe Lieberman was his “mentor”?
My take on this is that Obama was trying to inoculate himself against the disfavor of the Israel lobby, who have already come at him through this resuscitation of the Farrakhan charge. This disfavor originates in 1. his opposition to the war and 2. things like the vote against cluster bombs I linked to above).
It wasn’t hindsight. Read his October 2002 speech against the war. This was made when he was in a primary fight for the US Senate. There could have been political ramifications for him. It was courageous at the time. You may not want to vote for him, but at least give him credit for what he did.
The HRC campaign tries to use ONE truncated quote during the 2004 Kerry campaign to make their case he was indecisive. They always leave off the last sentence which shows which side of fence he was on.
As one middle aged female leaning Obama, I have great respect for her, but to accuse anyone who criticizes her as misogynist if wrong. No doubt some of the coverage is not evenhanded, but some of the dislike she earned all by herself.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Hillary cannot be contrasted to McSaint on this front. And, let me tell ya, this will be the only front come November 9…war, war, war will be the only issue. The economy be damned!
Did you oppose John Kerry for his vote on Iraq. His vote and explanation (not apology) were almost identical to Clinton. It seems to me that the easiest, most triangulating approach toward the nomination, would have been a simple apology. It seems less than cunning of her to state it the way she does. It’s possible that she really believes that presidents ought to be smart enough and trustworthy enough to use authority for leveraged diplomacy, even intimidation, without barging into a fiasco.
Also, the Humphrey vs. RFK (or McCarthy) split you mentioned caused the narrow loss of one of the most liberal Democrats who ever existed, and gave us Richard Nixon.
Women get so wrapped up in the gender issue, they see criticism of Hillary as misogyny, much like criticism of Israel brands the critic as anti-semitic. To me her worst sin is hand holding with Bill and those adoring looks. That’s so dishonest it’s difficult to put a positive spin on her. The press took improper liberties with her laugh and cleavage when her vote for the war and Kyle-Lieberman are more than enough to disqualify her.
And remember how crazily jingoistic America was at that point. I was literally yelled at several times during this period for expressing dislike for this Invasion, even in my tiny little world. Here Obama was, as a politician who was planning on a higher office, going around saying this publicly. He gets a lot of points in my book for this, and it should not be simply dismissed because he wasn’t in the U.S. Senate.
About this Lieberman stuff: Obama has worked much more with, and has praised Russ Feingold MUCH more than he ever has LieberME!. Feingold has voted against the Patriot Act and the Invasion, and coupled with Obama’s vocal opposition to the Iraq Invasion from the beginning, it’s reasonable to assume he might have voted against it. Paul Wellstone also said some nice things about Traitor Joe. Should Wellstone’s actions be ignored as well because of this? Of course not. It’s all part of the dance in Warshington.
As a freshman senator, you don’t get to pick your mentor. Leadership picks for you. There was reasoning behind the selection of JoeLie, but probably not reasoning that is all above board. Leadership has a different agenda than average Joe Constituent believes.
Can you remember where you heard Michelle Obama say she would have to think about supporting Hillary? Any chance of linking to the audio or video? That was a serious blunder, if she said it.
I actually think this comment just gives the misogyny and sexism more juice? Bill Clinton was “misogynyst”? For being a philanderer? Gee whiz, this kind of subjective, emotional perspective just confirms every sexist stereotype about weak women. The two are an old married couple who have stayed together successfully raised a kid. It shouldn’t be the subject of poliical conversation, unless it’s to give them credit for their successes.
I never went to a dead concert …. but I did see Gerry at the Palo Alto
Keystone…. boy was he good… everyone was grooving ti the tunes…
What do you mean, did I “oppose” him? I was contemptuous of him, but I didn’t have much of a choice but vote for him in the general. I gave money to Dean in the primaries because he opposed the war.
Otherwise, exactly: Kerry was a pathetic disgrace on the stage when it came to this issue, as Clinton will be.
Thanks for that response. Sounds like you’d know more about it than me with my speculations.
Nice, the Jerry Band
He was not in a primary fight for US Senate in 2002. He ran in 2004. Sometimes, being in the US Senate, you were bombarded with alot of classified information…..cherrypicked but…..The whole force of the administration and pentagon and CIA and the media were in a full court press. Who know how Obama would have voted? He himself said that.
Look, I also opposed the war and thought it was utterly disasterous from the word go. I just feel that both Democratic candidates are light years better than any of the Republican candidates and we have a whole lot of issues, in addition to Iraq. I had to see Democrats add ammunition to Republicans or weaken support for whoever may be the sole candidate against McCain or Romney.
Late coming to the thread…I was seeing off my daughter, who was going back to college after her weekend midterm break. Looks like an interesting post and thread. Now to read…
It was on a morning talk show. The ABC one. Deborah Roberts was the interviewer. Good Morening America.
Jane:
Did you check your inbox?
Like I said. His next sentence was “all I know is that case wasn’t good enough for me.” People always leave that out.
He was a state senator at the time but not too long after announced his bid for the U.S. Senate
You’re entitled to that opinion, but I don’t see it as being subjective. His actions were deplorable and mysogynistic, and I don’t look at their marriage as a success. In my opinion, when you’re the President of the United States, and the things you do behind closed doors, in the confines of your personal and family relationships, gets exposed, it shouldn’t be something that you’re so ashamed of that you have to lie about it. I would like to get Chelsea’s take on how successful her parents’ marriage has been. Being the leader of anything requires a certain level of character. I think Bill Clinton lacks that level of character, and by association, so does his wife.
This is incorrect. You can not make a direct comparison of Clinton and Obama based on the IWR. While you can certainly dock Clinton, you can not apply a positive value to Obama because it is a missing data point. It is -1 for her and 0, not +1 for him.
He can say anything he damn well wants to about his judgement. It makes not a whit of difference because he was never expected to be held accountable for his words. And who knows how he would have voted with all of his Illinois constituents breathing down his neck and so many of his other colleagues caving to the enormous pressure.
I *do* fault Clinton for the IWR. I think it was wrong and she should have tried harder to persuade her constituents that it was a mistake. But I also know, that in the whole of the issues, she is the better, more qualified candidate with the more extensive knowledge base and more likely to get us out of Iraq as carefully as possible.
To let one vote, and not even a complete comparison, be the guide for picking a president isn’t very rational.
I donated to this site during the liveblogging of the Scooter Libby trial, and I was proud to do so because the MSM was ignoring that story. However, I am really disappointed in Jane’s post. As a 40 year-old woman, I am offended by the idea that I should vote for a woman because I am a woman, or because other people are being mean to that woman. Yes, I agree that a lot of vile stuff is being spewed towards Senator Clinton. I also think that a lot of vile stuff will be spewed towards Senator Obama. I will vote for Clinton in the general election because of the people she would appoint to the Supreme Court, but I (and I imagine others) have a fairly severe case of “Clinton fatigue”. It’s nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her behavior and Bill’s behavior. Truthfully, I am more than a bit worried about Bill “freelancing” in the White House again (and I could care less about who he sleeps with or has sexual activity with.) It’s his judgment (or lack of it) that’s in question, and what his risk-taking personality style could do to her presidency.
I hope people don’t really vote for a candidate just to tell the media, “I’ll show you.”
As tempting as it is to make Chris Matthews and Bill Kristol throw a fit on Super Tuesday, such pleasures are temporary.
Vote for the candidate you want to see as President for the next 4-8 years.
If it’s Clinton, great. If Obama, more power to you. Pick whomever you want. Just do it for the right reasons.
So our considerations should all be constructed around the need to not judge Clinton too harshly and give her the benefit of the doubt, even now in 2008?
You’re really missing the point, several points.
1. Clinton cannot credibly campaign in the general on ending the war given her vote for it.
2. Clinton probably supported the invasion “in her heart”. Regardless of that heart, she hasn’t said voting for the AUMF was a bad thing. So she stands by the vote.
3. Her Kyl-Lieberman vote indicate her divergence with Obama on future matters of war and peace, as do Obama’s statements on engaging Iran.
4. Obama didn’t vote for the AUMF (see point #1).
5. Obama probably was sincerely against the invasion of Iraq. We have some evidence of this such as, uhhhh…his 2002 public statements!
Why all these contortions to obscure the crucial difference between the candidates?
Actually Obama and Short Ride have both been quoted that Obama specifically requested Short Ride as his Senate mentor. So the leadership may have made the selection but it was at the freshman senator’s request.
There is one ploy of the Hillary-deranged that seriously annoys me. A TV host, e.g., Tweety, will pose the question to a talking head, usually but not necessarily a Hillary supporter: “Why is Hillary so bent on polarizing people?” This is a very non-subtle form of blaming the victim, but nobody ever calls it for what it is.
Don’t count on it.
“We” may clean the floor with the GOP in Congress but I don’t think that it is a sure thing that the same will bleed over into the Presidential.
Oh, and I use “We” at the beginning because it is the only way I can describe the Democrapic party. They are NOT us. They are they, the other, the same other as the GOP. They are NOT us. They are corporations, secrecy, bombing other nations (repeatedly) and LIKING it, they are squelching Labor for corporate benefit, etc.
They are only us in peripheral, transient areas…and usually just long enough to win an election before reverting to “wildtype” (ie, the GOP).
I can’t speak for Jane but I don’t believe she is telling folks who and how to vote. She’s just doing what she ahs done consistently throughout this campaign season; she is pointing out the flaws in the arguments being presented as reasons to vote against. And the misogyny displayed by many of the HRC haters has no reflection on reality.
The only request that I make of folks is hold the candidates to the same standards across the board.
I don’t have a lot of patience for this argument when lowly me, simply by reading the Washington Post in 2002-2003, smelled a rat and had three particular items of proof that the administration were lying about WMD: tubes, yellocake, and balsa-wood “drones”.
And as to “Who know how Obama would have voted?”, your argument gives him no credit for his words spoken in 2002 and Clinton full credit for her unconvincing, to say the least, explanations for her vote. You seem to think voting for the AUMF was an inevitable thing despite the fact that 21 Democratic Senators voted against.
Agreed. But with her it isn’t just the one vote. The vote for picking a fight with the Revolutionary Guard was another vote that shows she is too afraid of being considered ”soft” to do the right thing. IMHO.
Don’t count on it.
”We” may clean the floor with the GOP in Congress but I don’t think that it is a sure thing that the same will bleed over into the Presidential.
Oh, and I use ”We” at the beginning because it is the only way I can describe the Democrapic party. They are NOT us. They are they, the other, the same other as the GOP. They are NOT us. They are corporations, secrecy, bombing other nations (repeatedly) and LIKING it, they are squelching Labor for corporate benefit, etc.
They are only us in peripheral, transient areas…and usually just long enough to win an election before reverting to ”wildtype” (ie, the GOP).
Or that she genuinely approves of the neoconservative “project”. The doctrine of “regime change” was, after all, established during her husband’s administration, and Richard Holbrooke would be a plausible Secretary of State for Hillary Clinton.
He didn’t seem to be very good pupil, having voted against Kyl-Lieberman.
I think I’ve read that too. JoeLie used to claim be a democrat too. Just something to ponder.
i have never been, nor am i now a Hillary hater. i will vote for her if she gets the nomination. unless Obama buries her in the primaries tomorrow i believe she will get the nomination. the superdeligates probably lean her way. they represent the establishment as does Hillary.
Obama doesn’t have her experience. Neither does he have her baggage. i’m really pretty annoyed at all of the finger pointers on both sides. they’re detrimental. period. i’m past listening to reason. too much of it is pure sophistry if not outright bullshit. i’m ready for it to be wednesday and i don’t care who wins.
So the vote to invade Iraq was just “one vote”?
Leave aside Kyl-Lieberman, or cluster bombs, or whatever. I beg you to rethink your perspective on this unusually consequential “one vote”. And I don’t want a candidate who promises to withdraw from Iraq “carefully”.
I would question why he’d think it was a good idea in the first place. After all, Obama entered the Senate in 01/05 and Short Ride’s war monger personality was well known and in full flower at that point.
And he didn’t vote against Kyl-Lieberman, he didn’t vote at all.
kdh22 February 4th, 2008 at 11:03 am
154
In response to brendanx @ 142
You’re entitled to that opinion, but I don’t see it as being subjective. His actions were deplorable and mysogynistic, and I don’t look at their marriage as a success. In my opinion, when you’re the President of the United States, and the things you do behind closed doors, in the confines of your personal and family relationships, gets exposed, it shouldn’t be something that you’re so ashamed of that you have to lie about it. I would like to get Chelsea’s take on how successful her parents’ marriage has been. Being the leader of anything requires a certain level of character. I think Bill Clinton lacks that level of character, and by association, so does his wife.
___________________
you may be at least partly right about Bill. your conclusion about Hillary is somewhat sophomoric.
I really don’t see an experience difference between the two. 35 years experience is campaign rhetoric IMO.
The irony is that the hardcore Hillary-haters on the right say they hate her because she’s a Commie, when in fact she’s a centrist-conservative DLC Democrat.
Setting aside her positions, what is it that they hate about her?
I think a large bit of it is her voice. Seriously.
Women politicians make the mistake when speechifying of shouting, of trying to be stentorian like the male orators out there. But this is tough for women to pull off without sounding high-pitched and screechy, like they’re having a heated argument with somebody.
The key, I think, is to emulate Cher, Toni Braxton and Grace Slick, to name some popular women singers with low voices, and not to shout but to “sing” one’s speech in a lower register. That way, you sound in control and not like you’re having a fight with someone. If Hillary could sit down with a good voice coach, she could find a way to achieve this. Then we could move on to weighing her on the merits!
Many will not agree with you, Praedor. I, however, do.
If what you say were not true, then we would NOT be in the position in which we (as opposed to ‘we’) find ourselves.
No matter how bad things may become, the political ‘class’ will suffer very little.
Lest this be taken for ‘cycnicism’ understand that in my view those who ‘game’ the system or studiously do not ‘get it’ being as their comfort, job and cushy future at lobbyists would be ‘at risk’ are the true ‘cynics’.
Heaven forfend we should “finger point” about the AUMF! It would be “detrimental” to delineate the differences between the two on the most important day of voting in the Democratic primaries. No differences; it’s all good. We can all console ourselves with being guaranteed an African-American or female candidate, even if our occupation extends into the next presidential campaign.
I’ll forgive you the pollyannish injunctions not to debate the issue (or rather The Issue) if you’ll forgive my sarcasm. It comes from being a “Hillary Hater”; it’s a lot like my “Bush Derangemement Syndrome”.
Vote against the war, for crying out loud.
Jane describes a blend of sexism and ageism. A recent gasbag line I remember was along the lines of ”Who wants to watch a woman grow old?”(as we would if she were President). That may have been Matthews, I’m not sure.
A few thoughts about bias against older people, either apart from gender or blended with it (of course our society also has bias against young people too):
An old person can have new ideas, and a young person can have old ideas or old ideas masquerading as new ones. ”New”, as in ”new & improved”, that we see on grocery store packaging, is not necessarily better. History suggests that a new generation is more likely to repeat the mistakes of past generations than to bring about reform; the new generation is certainly not automatically better, although we always hope it will be. ”Old”, applied to people is a pejorative word in our society. When we hear about ”old” politics or policies, that phrase can easily evoke bias against older people. There are many more examples. Supporting a candidate on the basis of age is pretty dumb. I’m officially elderly, and if I did that I would be supporting McCain. Most people are smarter than that, I hope. But there is also more subtle ageism that we need to try to be sensitive to, just as we have to be conscious of how our thinking is affected, or how our words may be heard, when we discuss race or gender.
Amanda over at Pandagon has posted on this as well albeit from a different point of view. She says with regards to misogyny and racism,
“Putting the two into competition is childish, ignores the fact that there are plenty of people getting double and quadruple doses of racism and sexism, and puts one in danger of losing perspective. My sole point is that it is easier to be openly sexist than openly racist in the mainstream because systematic racism is all too effective a means of oppression.”
here is the link to the entire post
http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/04/6681/
kdh22 February 4th, 2008 at 11:20 am
173
In response to fahrender @ 169
I really don’t see an experience difference between the two. 35 years experience is campaign rhetoric IMO.
_______________________
i’ve known a number of good women who were married to men of less than sterling character. you seem to imply that the fact that she is still married to him puts her in the same character mold.
Clear thinking, much appreciated. More, if you are so inclined, please.
Hillary has become a really good speaker. I am continually impressed by how well she does. I think she is great. She certainly is equal to Obama. I get really annoyed by how Obama puts his nose in the air when he speakes and literally looks down on everyone. And what is with that cadence he uses?
Corrected! I forgot that between comment #158 and there.
Still you’re criticizing him (correctly) for being a neophyte, potential apologist for neconservative foreign policy when Clinton is a full-fledged practitioner of it.
I guess I should be thankful you said sophomoric as opposed to moronic. My conclusion about Senator Clinton is based in the psychology of human behavior. Think about it. After Bill’s multiple extra-marital affairs, she became conditioned to live with it. The result of the conditioning diminishes her character. Bill’s actions diminish her character. By association to Bill, her level of character is lessened. Sophomoric it may be, but I don’t believe it to be too far off base.
wow.
My sentiments exactly. If Obama had been in the Senate at the time would he have voted against it? Maybe. He was in a Senate Race at the time?
Days later, on Oct. 2, 2002, Obama made one of the most important speeches of his political life. Invited to address a hastily organized protest of President Bush’s war plans for Iraq, Obama told hundreds of people in Federal Plaza in downtown Chicago that invading would be a big mistake.
“I am not opposed to all wars,” Obama said. “I’m opposed to dumb wars.”
Notice the date. October 2, 2002
Formally launching his Senate bid in January 2003, Obama became a savvier and more effective fund-raiser, tapping both the white, North Side crowd he had impressed in 2000 and an emerging base of black professionals, many of whom were eager to support a man who, literally and allegorically, seemed to represent a unified America they longed for.
So Obama actually hadn’t formally launched his Senate race on Oct 2. He was able to put it out there and see how it resonated with the voters.
Plus he ran against Alan Keyes for Christ’s sake. A turnip had a good chance to beat Keyes in that election.
Please check out the Taylor Marsh blog, where Michelle Obama was uncertain if she could support Hillary in November if she was the nominee, despite the fact that Hillary and Bill have both pledged to support whoever the Democratic nominee is. This smacks of immaturity, and certainly not the unifying element that Obama speaks so highly of
Are these women you speak of married to former Presidents of the United States?
alibe50 February 4th, 2008 at 11:30 am
182
In response to Phoenix Woman @ 174
Hillary has become a really good speaker. I am continually impressed by how well she does. I think she is great. She certainly is equal to Obama. I get really annoyed by how Obama puts his nose in the air when he speakes and literally looks down on everyone. And what is with that cadence he uses?
_________________
let’s face it. you don’t like the guy. your criticism of Obama is not unlike some of the kinds of criticism that Jane was referring to that are being used against Hillary.
I can understand the bile and hate from the right. I can never understand it from the left. I always thought the left was a more generous place, more welcoming, more inclusive and open to those of a variety of views within the spectrum. As for The pundits: when I hear Mike Barnicle talking about the Clintons and espcially Bill I ask myself: Why doesn’t Joe Blow or Mika Brez say the following: we have Mike Barnicle with us. Before he gives us the latest poop on Bill Clinton viewers should know that he is a plagairist: that means he stole someone else’s words and ideas. Mike???
Actually he was running against Jack Ryan, who later withdrew. Keyes was the replacement candidate
kdh22 February 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am
184
In response to fahrender @ 172
I guess I should be thankful you said sophomoric as opposed to moronic. My conclusion about Senator Clinton is based in the psychology of human behavior. Think about it. After Bill’s multiple extra-marital affairs, she became conditioned to live with it. The result of the conditioning diminishes her character. Bill’s actions diminish her character. By association to Bill, her level of character is lessened. Sophomoric it may be, but I don’t believe it to be too far off base.
__________________
both of those people are way complicated. i don’t think they can be analyzed in an uncomplicated way. what you say may well be true, but it isn’t necessarily true.
Since Obama really didn’t get a chance to vote on Iraq, are you really certain he would have voted against it? Is it possible that he might have just voted “present” since it was such a sticky issue. A lot of times in Illinois when the going got tough, the “present votes” made nice fillers.
I don’t like Obama’s big ears, either. Or his strangely purplish lips.
WTF?
I don’t like Clinton’s lifetime record of warmongering.
What happened to Jack Ryan? *g*
I am impressed with Hillary’s determination to see past the invectives to what she might plan for and do. When she wins she will have the mandate to shape specific policy changes. Obama will have a mandate to share optimism. I’ve already got that. I’m voting for empowering specific changes.
Riding the truth fence is not recommeded…may be true, may not be true. LOL! IMO it’s true. I plan on voting MY truth.
Your logic seems to be: Therefore, vote for the candidate who definitively voted for the war, because “you know where she stands”.
That’s wrong. You don’t know IL legislative procedure.
Wonderful post, Jane- God only knows what life in this country will be like once the groupthink typical of the msm meeets an entire generation of brain damaged NCLB youth!
He had been involved in a rather nasty divorce and tried to have the records sealed after they had already been public. He was married to actress Jeri Ryan and there were some ‘interesting’ sexual allegations made that were never proven but just the same, he withdrew from the campaign
…and what Brendanx said @198
This is scolding prudery. What’s more, you present Hillary Clinton as a passive victim of her fate.
This is sophomoric, or at least immature. They both presumably got things out of the marriage to which fidelity was secondary. They’re adults; leave them alone.
They liked to swing.
alibe50 was around last night. she(?he?) and another commenter were making these kinds of critcisms of Obama then as well. the other one (moniker doesn’t dredge up….. jul50 or something or other) really carried a rant on for quite a while about “how wrong and stupid the so-called progressives were and have been for the past 12 years etc.” would not stop ’til one of our people kept tripping with the humor. i guess they don’t get it that it just makes people NOT want to vote for their candidate…..
kdh22 February 4th, 2008 at 11:40 am
197
Riding the truth fence is not recommeded…may be true, may not be true. LOL! IMO it’s true. I plan on voting MY truth.
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good for you. no one can do better.
Yes–my thoughts exactly. Edwards was my choice, too, and I am still sad and upset that he dropped out.
And I am thinking as you are–that someone is going to take out Hillary or Obama if they are elected.
I don’t care for Hillary or Barack, but I don’t want to see that happen, either.
And, yes, I will vote for whomever gets the Dem nomination, like them or not.
They liked to swing, among other things
i guess neither wanted to admit it when it came to the custody of their child
From what I read, he liked to swing. She? Not so much.
Can people please stop bringing up Kyl-Lieberman? Obama conveniently managed to miss that vote, despite 98 (that’s right, 98) other Senators showing up for it. And for crying out loud, Obama co-sponsored a bill with identical language. So when Obama has the nerve to bring up Kyl-Lieberman, ask yourself how honest he’s being with you.
As for the right wing hate machine, not only do I categorically reject the idea of supporting a Dem candidate based on who I think those idiots will hate less, I also think people are being naive about what those pricks have waiting for Obama. They haven’t had occasion to go after him until recently, but if you think they’ll be at a loss for ways to slime a black man with a Muslim name, you’re hopelessly naive. And to be clear, that’s not a criticism of Obama. I just think the professional haters don’t need to enter into the equation either way.
I agree with almost everything you say here and looked askance at the invasion largely because I had agreed with Bush 41, Scowcroft, and at the time, Cheney, that we didn’t need our own Gaza and occupation of Iraq would be totally against our national interests.
However, there was a point after the vote, when Sadam allowed the U.N. inspectors to return, when I thought, “Damned, I guess the little shit pulled of a major bluff.” On that bases, I understood some of the Democratic votes. It was only afterwards that Bush was going to invade, come hell or high water.
Yup. Jack Ryan was the Golden Boy of the Illinois Republican Party. He was being groomed for higher things, had movie star looks, and a movie star for a wife: Jeri Ryan, who played “Seven of Nine” in Star Trek: The Next Generation. But even he couldn’t beat Obama — yes, the sex and divorce scandal was the finishing blow, but as a former Ryan staffer notes, Jack Ryan was down by 20 points to Obama even BEFORE that scandal broke.
Former Edwards supporter here going for Obama Tomorrow.
I will admit that I am voting for Obama and against Hillary. She gets a whole lot of BS criticism, and a good portion of it is undeserved, some portion of that is sexist. But key portions of the criticism in my book are not BS.
The DHinMI DKos posting noted above explained my thoughts to a T. Bill Clinton had no coattails in either election and left the party in a shambles. Hillary is campaigning in very much the same way. Similar ideas as well. If we bring back the Clinton campaign we’re not making the break we need to with increasingly dynastic flavor of American Politics.
Hillary would be a fine president if she wasn’t married to one. She is where she is largely because of that (though not exclusively!!) I’m not going to argue that she couldn’t handle the job very well indeed.
Obama has the potential to be a great president and have major coattails as well.
thanks. I should add that ageism, in that blend, is not equally applied to men and women. It can evoke bias against an older man, but as we know we are often more forgiving of age in men than in women. An older man may be dismissed as an old fogey, or he may be considered wise and accomplished. A middle-aged woman, as Jane says, is supposed to just disappear. And with regard to women past middle-age, we hear the stuff about “acting like an old woman”.
Another point about Hillary: As a woman in this age of “war on terror”, she has to look really tough in order to be considered for the role of Commander in Chief. She may be a war hawk, I’ll leave that up to people to decide that for themselves, but the C.W. is that she can not possibly win if she is perceived as soft. Any Democrat is vulnerable to that charge, but a woman is more likely to be seen that way. So I suspect she tries to compensate for that. Of course, if she looks tough, she is a bitch.
Thank you JANE!
Our memories diverge here. I remember very quickly after Saddam Hussein relented how I said to myself: the audacity of the war propaganda is astonishing, right out of Orwell; in three months the press will be saying again that “Saddam kicked out the inspectors.” The administration was clearly flustered by Hussein’s surrender and they showed it. That dispelled any remaining doubt about Bush’s intentions, that it had nothing to do with inspections. There was no excuse for the vote. It was an unambiguous vote to give Bush carte blanche, no matter what.
Minor point, Crosstimbers, but my reading and listening suggests that the Busheroo intended to invade Iraq from day one. Perhaps even before? Also,
his behavior towards the UN was always rather cynical, don’t you think?
Yeah, you’d think those types of lifestyle choices would have been discussed before having children and running for public office.
I don’t know dakine. Rumor has it that she liked to get wild too, just didn’t want it to be public knowledge…DUH!
I recall it being pretty clear that Bush was headed to war. For someone with Hillary’s experience, in the White House not even two years previously, it had to be abundantly clear. This is where the experience argument cuts both ways.
The problem I have with the ‘HAS to’ business, and ‘conventional wisdom’ is that both preclude genuine authenticity. I’ve spoken to this in other threads, and I think true substance requires something beyond calculation, which, I am certain you will agree, has contributed to arriving us in this ’spot’.
Also, since I credit women with the most important ‘discovery’ of humankind, that is agriculture, I should like to see a woman who dared operate from that perspective of seeing beyond what many (men) consider to be ‘obvious’, when in fact it is merely, ah, ‘conventional wisdom’. If you catch my drift.
Up with genuine Human Beings. Period!
Yes, the media whore media’s constant drumbeat of Hillary-hatred is nauseating. They sell Obama like he’s a Chevy — new! shiny! new! young! new! while treating Hillary like a Rush Limbaugh punchline — no one wants to see an old hag getting older. Especially not a smart old hag.
I read Pandagon’s Snow White piece, and in its thread an apparently liberal commenter actually trashed Hillary Clinton for not doing a better job of hiding her intelligence.
I kid you not.
“Hillary would be a fine president if she wasn’t married to one. “
What???
It’s perfectly legit to bring up Kyl-LieberME!. Chris Dodd explains the difference between K-L and the other bill you mentioned:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QPnN2m8tCpE
I do wish Obama didn’t have so many present votes in the US Senate (his Illinois present votes were not unusual considering the 4,000+ votes he did cast). However, I can understand his need to campaign more than Hillary given his huge disadvantage in name recognition and connections. In 2007, Obama and Clinton were pretty even on present votes until the last quarter, where Obama really started missing a bunch. If memory is correct from checking the WaPo votes site a while back, Obama had approx 160 present votes to Clinton’s 103.
As far as what “the media” will do to him, please stop living in fear of the Noize Machine. I’m done worrying about what Lush Limpballz or Timmeh Russet might say about things. It’s becoming quite clear that they don’t have nearly as much influence as they used to have. Repub talk radio has come out big time for Mittmo, yet CrazyTrain McCain is gaining like crazy since then, and that’s been their base in recent years!
It’s a whole new era, and the rules are being re-written right before our eyes. Finally!
I agree. Thank heavens we didn’t know Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were
diminished in that way. I think Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter are two of the most admirable people ever to serve in the White House, and they may be eligible for sainthood, but I really believe there have been a lot more effective Presidents.
Looking back. Too many people looking back. Keep up with change or get run over by it. Don’t you think it’s time to pass the torch to a generation of new thinkers? Change is scary, especially for older folks, but it’s time for a new way of thinking blended with the honor and character of times past. Please open your mind.
Those who don’t look both ways before crossing the present might become redundant…
Many posting here will support whomever gets the nomination. But you need to make your choice clear in the Primary or Caucus of your state. That’s the whole enchalada, folks. The power is in the Primary. Please do your best and hope for the rest. My vote is with Hillary, and I won’t regret it at all. Hope you all vote and can say the same.
Well done Jane. And thank you. I call it the Hillary-pitchfork, Obama-halo effect. It has a polarizing effect. As a former Edwards supporter, I consider Hillary’s health plan the kicker. I think if Obama is nominated and I hope he is not, we are going to be hearing a lot about rezko and exelon, among other things adnauseum. Paul Krugman believes Obama will jam up universal healthcare with Harry adn Louise mandate flyers. And I am personally wary of the little University of Chicago economic Friedmanite dreamteam Obama’s mustered up.
I don’t hate Hillary. I just think her record on important votes lacks leadership. (Iraq? Kyl-Lieberman ammendment? Bankruptcy? Clusterbomb ban?) I feel for her the same lack of enthusiasm I did for John Kerry. I think we can do better than choosing between the Good Cop or Bad Cop. Her husband was a good Good Cop, but we need somebody less connected to the same corrupt force if want the change we need so badly.
When I saw that the defense industry is putting her money on her that sealed the deal. Gender & personality have nothing to do with it. I want a woman president now, but Nancy and Hillary won’t put impeachment on the table because it will spoil Hillary’s historic pre-ordained dibs. I also thought it was interesting how the Diebold machines seemed to flip for her in N.H.
bonkers
I saw that clip, and as much as I like Dodd, I think he’s splitting hairs a little bit(he was campaigning too, at the time.) If you read objections to Kyl-Lieberman, they focus almost exclusively on the language designating the Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organization. That designation triggers certain mechanisms that give the President a freer hand to act unilaterally. The identical language was in both bills.
At any rate, we’ll never know exactly how Obama would have voted, because he managed to miss the vote. To my mind, you can’t skip a vote and then trash those who showed up to put their names in the record and accept the consequences.
And really, kdh22, “Change is scary, especially for older folks” WTF? I hope someday you’ll reread that and realize what a snot nosed little shit you look like.
[Mod Note; perhaps the next time we could find a better choice of words to describe a fellow commenter?]
And after Rezko, Exelon.
Obama’s become the blank slate for Democrats that GWB was for Republicans. He might turn out to be great, but I haven’t seen clear evidence of that in advance.
I completely agree. I can’t think of a wimpier vote on the matter.
About Hillary, she is almost a caricature of the ugly sexist BS we put up with in this country. The more the haters hate on her, the more I’m driven to her.
“it’s time for a new way of thinking blended with the honor and character of times past …”
If you want to honor the character of some times past, ask your hero to stop dissing the decades of the Civil Rights and feminist movements as if they were tiresome and needlessly provocative. Some fights are worth engaging, and that isn’t going to change just because Obama has all but declared political meekness to be a virtue.
True. Here’s what’s written on Clinton, though: AUMF.
Classic stuff. Ryan wanted his privacy protected. That’s why he only wanted to have people watch him make love his wife in a “private” sex club.
Sadly, this is misogyny, pure and simple. A significant element in our country are not ready for a woman president. I have great respect for Hillary for sticking it out and enduring it all. I’m not planning on voting for Hillary for the rational reasons Fish cites.
If she wins the nomination I fear she can’t beat her opponent. If she does, I fear we will have 4 years of vitriol because the press hates her. THey will never accept her and for that reason I think she would be an unsuccessful president. Yes, it is very unjust.
My fervent hope is that history will redeem her and give her an honored place in women’s history. She deserves it regardless of the outcome of this election. She has paved the way for many women and we owe her our thanks.
What Robin Morgan said, here.
You had me until this, “I guess she didn’t get the memo — middle aged women are supposed to dry up, go home and be invisible.”
That is absurd. She is attacked because she is Hillary Clinton, not a middle aged woman.
I agree with all you wrote about Hillary Jane, but I can’t help to wonder how much agism has an effect on the campaign when choosing Obama over Hillary. It has been widely reported as a phenomena that Obama is inspiring youth to become engaged in the process like never before. I think the word “experience” has little meaning to the youth vote while “change” is something they understand and can easily grasp. I’ve experienced age discrimination numerous times on internet chat/member sites and find it increasingly common that so many younger people get uncomfortable and even hateful when they learn they are communicating with someone much older than they are. They seem to have a view of the world as being their young age and the internet is their domain so everyone older should but out. It truly sucks getting old!
Hillary would be a better president than GWB. But she is Establishment with a capital E, a strong believer in American Empire, and certainly not someone who has pushed back against Endless War.
It’s not her vagina, it’s her voting record. And I think it’s pretty sexist to insist otherwise.
At the point where Obama and Clinton were in the senate together, that is where you should focus your attention. And as Hillary has so succinctly pointed out, a fiery anti-war politician like Obama could have been a lot more vigorous in stopping the war if he were so motivated. And what have we seen of him orating and pounding the podium on the floor of the senate, demanding that we pull out of Iraq immediately?
Zilch.
A side by side comparison does not show Obama off very well. But you are willing to give him a break and not her. I’d ask myself why that is because, logically, it makes no sense.
But people voting from an emotional point of view rarely do.
Clinton was younger that Obama when he ran and I don’t remember young voters turning out for him en masse. Maybe it has to do with student loans. Maybe it has to do with job prospects after college and paying off all of those student loans. Maybe Obama has actively recruited.
But I think this is a fallacy that Barack has sewn up the youth vote. Hillary has had plenty of younger voters and this was shown in her NH results. She also has plenty of college educated people from the so-called creative class that Obama has claimed as his constituency.
I think they are motivated by something else and the media has made it their job to make it look like Obama is getting and overwhelming majority of them because after all, who doesn’t want to be identified with young, intelligent, creative people?
It’s advertising.
Fortunately, the MSM is consistent in making paper tiger attacks against HRC. It allows Hillary to constantly pump the main theme of her campaign: Poor Hillary. It’s so unfair!
Attacks from the left are conveniently lumped in with attacks from the right with all of them immediately being labeled unfair, irrational, and, whenever at all possible, misogynistic.
Even mention that Hillary has received every single position she has ever held since law school as a direct result of nepotism and, Bingo, you automatically hate women. Forget that you made the same critique of Bush in 2000.
Point out that she is completely in the pockets of Big Business-even name names and contributions- and you are irrational.
Way to work the meme Jane!
“About Hillary, she is almost a caricature of the ugly sexist BS we put up with in this country. The more the haters hate on her, the more I’m driven to her.”
You just said it for me. I’ve been feeling this all week and I believe this has made up my mind.
reply
Jane, thanks so much for your wonderful essay. My problem is, what can we do? I want to push back!
Gee, I didn’t know she got her position as a staffer on the (I believe it was) House Judiciary Sub-committee on Impeachment during H2Ogate due to nepotism. Or that her leadership on Marion Edelman’s Children’s Defense Fund was strictly due to her husband.
I think it’s more than her middle-aged womanhood but I have to say I’m struggling to articulate here. I think she’s something like a Rohrschach test, an intense blank slate onto which they can all project whatever sick, angry garbage is hurling around, or festering, inside their heads. It would help to try to think of those who have risen to the top these past eight years as they must have been as teenagers: up-tight (remember that word?) to the max and made asolutely miserable by the prospect of anyone else having fun. Hillary’s public demeanor generally has a bit of an edge to it (she’s entitled, I figure)that could be interpreted as arrogance, and that just drives these still-insecure wannabees (which they’ll always be, inside) bonkers.
Robin MOrgan nails it! Thanks for the link.
Great post Jane!
The most depressing thing for me these days is the way so many of my friends on the left cite the Hillary haters as a reason to vote for Obama. I try to point out to them that a) they are letting themselves be intimidated by the right while she stands firm and b)they are kidding themselves if they think Obama is magic and is going to be able to continue to float above it all, like a hot air balloon, throughout the campaign.
Their next position is, basically, that Obama is so much more fun. Spare me. Um, health care???? Anybody read Krugman today? We will never get healthcare with Obama and health care is half the reason I want a democratic president.
This reminds me, my polling place is in a Catholic Church in my mostly latino neighborhood where I will vote tomorrow, and I will have to walk past all the anti-abortion signs they always put out on election days.
Thank you. Perhaps I should have been more specific.
Unable to pass the bar exam, Hillary began a “post-graduate” study to fill time. She also worked with the Children’s Defense Fund until she was able to find a bar exam she could pass. She was a low grade research assistant (on impeachment procedure no less) to the House subcommittee. Her tenure at both appears to have been less than two years.
In August of 1974, after she was finally able to pass a Bar Exam in Arkansas, Hillary went to work at the school where Bill taught. Only after Bill was elected Attorney General, was Hillary able to find a job with a firm. Two years later, when Bill was elected Governor, Hillary was made partner. It’s good to be First Lady!
I am unaware of any independent accomplishments in the last 30 years but would love to be informed.
Do you have a source for your information? For it conflicts with everything I have ever read previously.
Many sources; but Wikipedia is usually a good start.
I am a woman. I do not hate Hillary but I really do not like her. It has nothing to do with gender or intelligence or competence. In my opinion she is not sincere. So given the choice between people who are competent– some of whom I like and some I don’t like–I will choose the people I like. Race or gender won’t be a factor. I believe people who don’t like Hillary just don’t like Hillary. It does not make sense to assume they don’t like women.
And nowhere that I could find in the wiki on Senator Clinton does it state that she flunked the bar exam anywhere.
I ask again, what is your source that she was in these positions due to a failure to pass the bar exam? Even “low level staffers” on Congressional committees have passed the bar.
If the left thinks they can win the nomination by employing right wing tactics, they better think again. I will not commit to voting for the Democrat and know many of my friends who will vote Hillary but will not vote Obama. The conduct of the progressive blogs has been outrageous and they deserve to be punished for their hypocrisy and failure to stand up for progressive values. If in their frenzied hysteria they imagine the ends justify the means…then all will be lost. Limousine liberals and the liberal elite media will not dictate this election for the good…they screwed us on Gore…they voted Bradley and hurt Gore in the general…they allowed Gore to be trashed incessantly. The liberals are WIMPS…they’ve wimped out in the congress…and they have failed to protect one of their own. Shame on them. Shame on everyone who has participated in this sexism. Shame on everyone who has pissed on every principle of progressive politics. And now…progressives ignore Paul Krugman as well. This is not new. But it is destructive. And it explains why they have failed to win the Presidency in 30 years…
Jack Nicholson just announced for Hillary on the Rick Dees show.
I read in Carl Bernstein’s bio of Clinton, A Woman in Charge that HRC flunked the DC bar, but passed the Arkansas bar. My understanding is that she was contemplating marriage to Bill and a career in Arkansas around the time she didn’t pass the DC bar so just moved forward rather than re-take it. It also apparently felt, understandably so, like a huge failure to her. I don’t know what his source was offhand.
HRC’s failing of the DC Bar was buried in her own book. Carl Bernstein mentioned it is his book on HRC and was taken to task by Media Matters for suggesting he broke the information first.
Apparently, some people still aren’t aware of it.
I really don’t know how to respond re: congressional staffers being licensed to practice law. It’s just not true.
FWIW, I don’t see an initial failure of the bar exam to be a disqualifying factor. I do seem to recall that it’s not an uncommon action. And if I read your link correctly, she failed the DC bar but passed the Arkansas bar.
I never said it was a disqualifying factor. But your earlier post mentioned the Children’s Defense Fund and the House subcommittee as some sort of prestigious accomplishments. While they may seem so at first blush, these are nothing but resume filler (pursued while taking classes) and pale in comparison to the actual successes of thousands of women (and men) who have accomplished great things in the legal field.
Even George W. Bush could put together an impressive sounding resume although he attained no position without family help and was unaccomplished at every one of them. If Hillary is any different, I would love to be corrected.
Obviously we’ll have to agree to disagree. Having had a family member working on Congressional staff (although not the House Judiciary during the Nixon Impeachment), I DO think it is a worthy accomplishment. I also think that being a valedictorian at Wellesley and a member of the Yale Law Review board are also worthy accomplishments.
Given the number of people who have failed one or more bar exams and gone on to great success in the legal profession, also demeans those people. My understanding is that the first timer failure rate is somewhere greater than 35%.
As I say, we will just have to agree to disagree on these areas.
Then that makes this not so surprising…
Count this 50 year old women as fed-up with the democratic party and the left in general. My first vote for President was for Carter and I’ve never voted for a republican, even once. Finally I have a chance to vote for a progressive woman and the press, pundit class, and fanatic right are all lined up against her. There’s no suprise there, but Obama supporters happily join in the swift boating, too naive to realize that should he win the nomination, the same tactics will be turned agains them. The movement supporting Obama reminds me of everything that surrounded George McGovern’s campaign. For Obama supporters too young to remember, the Democratice primary was great fun but in the fall, McGovern lost 49 states.
Millions of women are watching the sexism directed towards Hillary. If you think we will reward Obama with our vote in November, you are sadly mistaken.
We lived through President George Bush, many of us would rather rather live through President John McCain then enable the type of sexism that Hillary detractors exhibit.
Progressives need to understand the consequences of willful blindness with regard to Obama’s qualifications and experience. He has not been vetted. Imagine a white man or woman running on his experience and qualifications…they would be laughed off the stage. If you think for one minute Obama will get away with this hazy mumbo jumbo in the general, think again. The media is not your friend. They will support McCain. And losing in a landslide will be very destructive to Democrats. Keep imagining what will happen after Obama goes through the Republican meat grinder..and loses big time. It will damage progressives for a long time to come. This isn’t American Idol…there will be consequences…there will be blood…The best defense against this was careful vetting. We could not expect such vetting from the MSM…they have stood by while Bush destroyed this country…but I did expect such vetting from progressives…who have consistently lambasted the MSM for enabling Bush. The failure to apply any degree of even handed scrutiny to Obama will enable the Republicans again. It is a sad testament to what the progressive blogosphere has become. But it will be even sadder if it results in a Republican in the White House. Dems were over confident when Mike Dukakis was running. They were sure they would win. But there was insufficient vetting. And he had experience as a governor.
This will hurt if the so called progressives and their blogs abdicate responsibility for this most serious of tasks. It is important to learn the lessons of history. This isn’t a game or a personality contest. I hope the blogs wake up sooner rather than later. Progressives are being set up..big time.
So now my point has been morphed into disliking Hillary because she failed a Bar Exam? It fits the meme that all attacks on Hillary are, by definition, unfair, but it isn’t what I said.
I made the point that her career was based solely on nepotism (like Bush). If she’s so accomplished and “experienced” that she is the most qualified to be leader of the free world, than one would think her supporters should be able to point to one accomplishment in the last thirty years that wasn’t handed to her by Bill.
I’m going to delurk. Haven’t been here in awhile.
Let’s get beyond the gender & race stuff and get right down to practical politics. Practically the last thing my wife and I did before leaving Connecticut for good was work to elect Ned Lamont.
You remember Ned. He was the guy who had the guts and tell the world that it was okay to be opposed to the war in Iraq and run for Senate on an anti Iraq war policy when few were willing to speak up. He was also the guy who beat that snake Joe Lieberman in the Democratic primary.
I know there are Connecticut people here at Firedog Lake who were really bitter about that campaign. If you’re geographically challenged, you can hit Chappaqua, NY with a stone from Greenwich, Connecticut. Where were Hillary & Bill Clinton when Ned Lamont needed an endorsement? Well they sure as hell weren’t in Connecticut campaigning for their party’s nominee. And by sitting on the sidelines the Clintons were tacitly endorsing their dear friend Joe Lieberman. Typically it was about the Clintons - not the party. This was a chance for Hillary to make a strong anti-war statement and she copped out.
And gee, where have we seen Lieberman lately? Well standing on podiums with his buddy John McCain. I’m sorry folks, Hillary’s lack of support for Lamont makes her stance on the war in Iraq very clear. She didn’t have the guts to make a statement two years ago. She won’t have the guts if she gets the nomination. Frankly I believe support cuts two ways. And if we nominate Hillary she’ll sell out the anti war folks in heartbeat.
I just hope Connecticut remembers tomorrow.
As I said, I don’t agree that her entire career is based on nepotism. It wasn’t nepotism that got her into Welesley or Yale Law in the first place. Just as it wasn’t nepotism that got Obama into Columbia or Harvard Law.
If Barak Obama were a white man named Joe Smith, would he be a viable candidate for President and leader of the not so free world? Probably not.
And George Bush got to his positions through his name as did Ted Kennedy. That is the nature of our world, for good or ill.
Crosstimbers
Exactly correct. The blindness and simple mindedness of the left is mind boggling…simply mind boggling. They don’t read and don’t know history…it’s the moment that counts for these very ignorant people. Nixon’s win didn’t have to happen. The left brought it about…because of short term thinking. It is frightening to see the left ignoring reality…ignoring universal health insurance…ignoring Republican play books…for a moment of fun with a chill guy. Let’s get serious.
You do recall that Obama endorsed Short Ride in the primary as well as the Clintons did don’t you? And that Senator Clinton did endorse Lamont in the general election and raised money for him while Obama sent an email to Lamont supporters?
Please judge them by the same standards
vidocq
Clearly, you have forgotten that Obama did less than Hillary for Lamont…but more importantly…in blue Connecticut…you forgot who won the Senate seat in question. Lamont lost the general although he won the primary. What part of that is hard to understand? The general public would never vote in Lamont, whether that upsets you or not.
Jane, I heard Oprah say today that she isn’t voting for Barack “just cause he;s black” and it reminded me of Mark Furman saying “i have never used the N-word”. Maybe they are both telling the truth ,but what kind of truth it is, I guess depends on your definition of what is is, huh? The MSM is so afraid of saying anything about Barack otherwise they will be racist, that it gives them the overtime to work on Hillary. After all doesn’t sexist takes second to racist in anyone’s book,right? It’s sad, but all these people could talk about their own mother without feeling bad. Low life pieces of sh*t, that’s all.
A career woman in her sixties has to go back to college and grad school to find an accomplishment to be proud of? If all we’re looking for are people who have been admitted to a prestigious school, then we’ve only narrowed the field to hundreds of thousands of people (many of whom later had successful careers not based on their last name).
I’ve asked several times for one HRC accomplishment in the last thirty years, and the only response is: Obama is only viable because he’s black. Huh?
Thank you for writing this. If The Establishment, the public, and blogs had targeted a candidate on the basis of their skin color, religion, sexual orientation, or some other factor, there would’ve been an absolute outrage the very first time it happened. Instead, it’s verdict first, trial later. Since you can’t prove a false negative (e.g., prove you’re not evil), it’s absolutely impossible for her to combat it.
Misogyny remains the only bigotry not only confused with mere rudeness (slurs are regarded as common foul language) but also openly glorified as a damn virtue (see: pop culture, athletics). I am not the “new age” or “Mr. Sensitive” type so it’s truly staggering to me how utterly bad it is.
Thanks, Jane, again for speaking out on something so blatantly obvious and absolutely suffocating, it’s impressive Hillary Clinton doesn’t completely break down. She’s truly impressive in the midst of this all-out assault. However, it’s not enough: Obama will win tomorrow and people will still refuse to see how blinded they have been by utter hate. What an ugly day for America.
Notice I didn’t say Obama in my post. I also seem to recall that Lieberman ran in that primary as a pro war Democrat. I suspect neither endorsement of a sitting Democratic Senator should have been surprising. But once Lieberman lost the primary it was a different ballgame
Barack Obama was hardly the national presence then that he is now. His active role in that campaign would have meant a lot less than the Clinton. As for the general election, I seem to recall that the Republican candidate managed to amass something like seven percent of the vote. Connecticut Republicans re-elected Joe Lieberman.
I guess her rating as one of the top 100 lawyers in the US for 1988 and 1991 aren’t sufficient for you then?
As I recall, that is Hilary Rodham Clinton being given that designation, not Mrs William Jefferson Clinton nor First Lady of Arkansas.
Gee georgeg1011,
You don’t get out much do you?
Weren’t you aware of the 2 or 3 times Mitt Romney cried during December? He was on the campaign trail.
George HW Bush cries quite a bit. Boehner cries in the senate a the drop of a hat.
Just another example of the double standard that exists. Boehner WEEPS openly over everything, Romney cries several times in the same month and no one makes a big deal about it.
Hillary’s voice breaks, she doesn’t actually cry, and the press and people like you are saying she isn’t tough and tested, she is too emotional to be president.
I’d much rather have Hillary than a president who was so cold he could send people to die in a war he lied the country into and sleepls like a baby without a doubt in the world.
You can’t see the double standard even as you type it out in words on your keyboard.
With all due respect, I’m just stunned that it took you this long to notice.
I won’t try to speak for others, I can only tell you what I think. Hillary Clinton is smart. She’s glib. She appears to be prepared and has a good grasp of the issues
But so did Joe Biden and so did Chris Dodd.
So what’s the problem? Well beyond her: “Well it seemed like a good idea at the time” defense of her war vote - I really wonder if she’s a very compelling candidate.
Beyond any of our views, the media has amazing instincts. They can smell blood in the water and unless something really dramatic happens tomorrow Hillary could be standing in front of a run-away train.
I agree with the hypothesis that maybe this all Obama all the time frenzy seems unfair. But it’s the media’s job to report the news and Obama’s amazing rise from 20 points down is news. I’m sure the Romney campaign is less than thrilled with the anointing of McCain.
I’m not bashing. It is what it is.
Well, at least we’ve narrowed the field down to 200 people who are at least as qualified as Hillary to be President.
BTW, I assume your referring to the National Law Journal. I checked the NLJ’s write ups for ‘88 and ‘91 and they mention, of course, her status as First Lady as well as such prestigious appointments as her “no vacancy” directorship in WalMart and partnership in The Rose Law Firm, but not a single legal accomplishment of Hillary Rodham Clinton is cited. Hmmmm…
Jane,
I am a huge fan of yours and Firedoglake, but what needs to be clear is that those of us who are fighting hard against a Hillary presidency do so after years of standing by the Clintons, years of looking forward to her chance to prove herself, a year of campaign support against the slimeball Lazio, and years of disappointment after that.
This term “Hillary Haters” insults our intelligence, and is used to dismiss us. To suggest our voices are support for the true Hillary Haters is more Clinton bullying to silence dissent within our party. Your entry serves this intimidation.
Yes, there are true Hillary Haters who despise the Clintons, but there are those of us who, only since her war enabling politics, have decided we’ve had enough of Bushes and Clintons and want significant CHANGE. If Hillary has been treated unfairly over the years, then her actions (inaction) in Congress in her attempt to win over the true Hillary Haters has backfired.
It is utter nonsense that anger towards Hillary within the Democratic Party comes out of some kind of phenonenom which is “in the air” or born out of the figments of our collective imaginations.
Fish and Horowitz get it so wrong. It was painful to watch Hillary sit out as Bush went to war and she refused to stand against him. Most of us thought she was a leader, but in that moment she proved herself just another self-serving politician. Hillary does not equal change, and we have an opportunity here and now to transform the face of American politics with a man of hope and promise and reject the tired politicians of the Clinton regime. Enough of the corrupted cynical James Carvilles, Howard Wolfsons, Chuck Schumers and Diane Feinsteins.
It’s not about “Hating Hillary” - her supporters flatter their conspiratorial egos, it’s about loving America, and wanting our country back from those Bush criminals who have chipped away at our constitution and our global good standing, and those who enabled them.
vidocq: You might want to check out this article from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08.....erman.html
“Mrs. Clinton Offers to Raise Money for Lamont Campaign
By JENNIFER MEDINA
Published: August 26, 2006
NEW HAVEN, Aug. 25 — In a private meeting at her Chappaqua, N.Y., home on Friday, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton offered to help Ned Lamont in his battle to unseat Senator Joseph I. Lieberman by sponsoring a fund-raiser, campaigning by his side and lending him one of her top political strategists.”
Since support for Lamont seems to be the tipping point for you, and since this contrasts with Obama donating $5,000 and sending an e-mail to Lamont supporters, I presume you’ll now be voting for Hillary?
Fiver: Does twice being selected as one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America count as an accomplishment? Or have you worked out some logical construct where that traces back to some kind of unfair boost she got from someone along the line?
WOW! Someone finally noticed the rampant misogyny being flung around the “LIBERAL” blogshere. Frankly there are a couple of big names sites I just plain won’t be visiting anymore because of the mindless nature of their Hillary hatred. This election cycle has been VERY disturbing to say the least and I’m a MALE! I can’t IMAGINE what it must be like to be a woman who thought she was on the good folks side only to find out the SAME sexist crap liberals have self righteously been crowing about for years is right at home in the hearts of the male liberal/prog community.
Hillary has many accomplishments beyond her early career after law school. Often the early ones get lost in a resume that extends over so many years.
I think her work towards gaining peace in Ireland stand out as a more recent example. I’ve met a number of Irish citizens who speak of her work in terms of great respect and gratitude. I was surprised since I hadn’t heard about her efforts.
I would also say her years as a senator speak favorably for her. She wasn’t afraid to actually work in the senate and gain re-election and approval, EVEN IN RED UPSTATE NY.
Obama, on the other hand, pledged to serve out his senate term and then turned his back on his constituents after one undistinguished year in the US Senate.
I can imagine the hue and cry if Hillary had flip-flopped on a commitment to her constituents! But again, that is the double standard Hillary faces.
If a woman had the “audacity” to campaign for Senate on Obama’s record she would be laughed off the Democratic stage. I fear we will see Obama laughed off the national stage if he faces the republicans in the general election.
my 89 should read “with impunity”
kdh22,
I think your word choice is a better choice than brendanx’s “sophomoric”.
People just need to get over it; talk about living in the past! I don’t get how Hillary not divorcing Bill is a problem for you or even any of your business. Get a life of your own. And if you want to be a Dr. Phil, get a degree and a tv show… maybe there is an opening analyzing Britney’s life… probably more your level of gravitas.
We don’t need yet another “psych 1″ student analyzing the Clinton marriage based on what they read in the gossip columns and what they learned last semester.
I confess that I had no idea that Hillary Rodham Clinton was responsible for peace in Ireland. It must rival her work on Apollo 11 and her discovery of the double-helix. Maybe as President she could reveal the secrets of cold fusion and inner peace!
FDL, where “Change is the currency of persuasion”, thanks all.
Could Obama have gotten into Harvard via a legacy as his father got a degree from there? Don’t know, just asking.
Jogger,
Speaking out against Hillary misogny and critiquing her candidacy on the basis of issues/past actions/war vote are not mutually exclusive. I’m not voting for HRC for many of the reasons you cite, but you’d better believe I’ll speak up in her defense against misogynistic treatment.
That’s how I took Jane’s post anyway.
Misogyny it is, mixed with the hangover from the anti-Clinton hysteria of the late 90’s. Sort of like they impeached one Clinton, but he weathered it, so they’ve got to finish the Clintons off by defaming Hillary. And I think that sort of mindset especially likes attacking an articulate, accomplished woman.
Her voting record is good on domestic issues, but for me it’s the war. So I’m also proof that they are not mutually exclusive.
Clinton strikes me as authentic. Everyone, especially in politics, emphasizes some aspects of their personality or positions over other aspects. That does not preclude authenticity. We’re not talking about a W here. The first time I saw him I said he’s a total phony. Al Gore, whom I like, was criticized in 2000 for appearing to present a different personality in each debate. I don’t see anything like that in Hillary. I feel like i know who she is. I don’t know where people get the “calculated” notion. Maybe she does have to be a little careful, but who wouldn’t be when having to cope with the crap that Jane described? Media Matters has for years been documenting the personal assault on her, which is what we’re talking about, (in the MM case in the media but it’s everywhere) having nothing to do with her actions or policies. She’s in a culture that says she should never get angry no matter what people do to her. I actually like her sometimes barbed humor when she is asked a stupid/loaded question. That’s a pretty good way to handle it. I like Obama too. I don’t like Hillary hating. I reject some things about both of their policies and campaigns, but that’s not what this post is about.
Sorry, I stopped reading at the second paragraph.
“an empty vessel into which [her detractors] can pour everything they detest.” (In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.)
George Bush is just and empty vessel into which I pour all I detest? I’ll give you he’s a bit of an empty vessel - into whom Dick Cheney has pour all that is destable. But if anyone thinks my feelings after living under that shit stain’s misgovernance for 12 years is nothing more than irrational projection, or is in anyway comparable to the Hillary hating phenomenon he can go fuck himself.
Jane, if you thought he had anything worthwhile to say maybe you shouldn’t have quoted him in his entirety, because that’s where I got off.
I’m not even trying to get past that vote. I was one of hundreds of thousands of protesters who clogged New York streets in bitter cold to demonstrate our opposition to Bush’s planned invasion of Iraq. Imagine our outrage when Senator Clinton, after giving marvelous speeches opposing the war, suddenly turned around and voted for it.
I prayed I would live to see the day when I could pay Hillary back for that betrayal of our trust. That day has come. I am overjoyed to vote against her.
Hi Jane!
Please don’t call me insincere, but I hate the idea that political leadership in America constitutes two ruling political families and their minions!
Does a third Clinton term have the ability to inspire America and grow our Congressional majorities to the extent of getting health care done? With Hillary I just see the status quo in Congress. With Barack I have incredible hopes….
For the love of god can we please get block quotes without italics!? I feel like the RCA dog tilting my head while I struggle to read these posts because THEY ARE ALL IN ITALICS. This is some of the best writing in the progressive blogosphere but the italics are killing me (and dramatically reducing how much I read on your site). Pleaaaaaaase, I’m begging you.
I am a woman and I dislike Hillary. For me, it is not misogny — and I voted twice for Billy! There’s just no humility to her. She’s just so cocksure about herself. She laughs off the ‘dynasty’ issue and minimizes and dismisses it. Everything about her is calculated and rehearsed. She’s played dirty pool with Obama. She simply can’t handle any competition. I don’t want or need a resurfacing of all the Clinton messes in their lives. They’ve had their time, give someone else a chance. I still maintain, but for Bill Clinton, there would be no Hillary!
LOL. Do you not think that reasoning has been spouted by every 13 old who wanted to do something their to which their parents objected since the beginning of time? Please print your statement, save it, and reread it in 25 years. It will give you one hell of a laugh to realize how illogical and nonsensical you were.
In terms of intellect, the only difference between younger people and older people is experience. In addition to having experienced more, tried more, failed more, succeeded more, in short, learned more, older people have been young. Younger people have never been older. Do you really think you have some idea that previous generations have not considered? Particularly in regard to political leadership. Look, kid, I like Obama, and value his tone of optimism, but he ain’t offering anything new. At best, he can offer a return to the opportunities and fairness which existed a short seven years ago. It will be a wonder if anyone can achieve that.
Finally, regarding this look ahead, not back stuff. History is to a society what memory is to an individual. It’s imperfect and subject to all the rationalization and contortion that memory is, but without it we have no social memory. Your are truly born into a new world every morning.
Now wipe your nose and go play.
Former Edwards supporter who has switched to Hillary. I find Obama a slick-talking lightweight. As Maxine Waters said so eloquently, “we need help, not hope!” And I could never vote for someone who was either so naive or so stupid that they think you can work with Republicans. This “can’t we all just get along” claptrap drives me up a wall. Hell no we can’t all just get along! Not with Republicans that want to gut the constitution. Not with Republicans that will always support the rich and the richer yet instead of the majority of the American People. Not with people that think they have the right to inflict their religious beliefs on the rest of us. Not with cretins that think they have the right to interfere between what a woman and her doctor decide to do with and to her body. And hell no we can’t get along or make deals or be bi-partisan with a corrupt bunch of thugs whose idea of bipartisanship is for our side to do what they want us to do. I want someone who understands that not some damn campaign based on a Smiley-Face!
I’ve apparently struck a nerve. I’m not a kid. I’m a middle-aged woman whom has considered and respected the views of my older family members and friends. I have learned a great deal from their experiences, and have listened intently to their advice and stories of courage. My parents lived through the depression, and while I was being raised by them, I was taught the value of hard work and the penny. I cared for both of them in their final days. Much wisdom was extolled to me in those final hours, and I continue to be blessed by them to this day. I did however learn a great deal about the aging process and all that comes with that. I’ll leave it at that.
In societies with little or no change, age is an advantage. Elders are respected because they know the gamut of social possibilities. In societies of rapid technological change, of which ours is certainly one, elders have little or nothing of value to suggest. What is current today did not exist for most of their lives. That is why we emphasize youth. People exercise, get Botox or plastic surgery to look younger than they are because age indicates one is “out of it”. Experience has little to say for itself except it’s most likely misleading if not downright wrong.
Well for sure I don’t want Hillary.
It is the Iraq vote and her refusal to see any wrong on her part.
The vote itself makes her unelectable for me.
Her dogged refusal to see any wrong in it makes me really not like her.
I don’t know your age, but your sweeping analysis of world progress suggests that you need to consider bailing out and leaving it to those younger than you.
I have no problem with this thoughtful answer, but you have to admit that your initial response sounds as arrogant and blithefully silly as that of ekunin at 302.
To amplify, I would ask you to consider whether or not our current problems are more related to the inability of the Bush administration and its supporters have to comprehen modern technology, or an insufficient understanding of the separation of powers and such concepts as collective security, balance of power, and national interest. I suggest that they have barged into world and national affairs and made a mess of it due to insufficient understanding of what our appropriate role in world affairs should be. Technology had nothing to do with it.
I can’t leave this insult unanswered.
“…an empty vessel into which [her detractors] can pour everything they detest.” (In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.)”
My hatred for the policies inflicted on this nation and the world by W and his enablers (which include far too many Democrats) is hardly irrational. In fact, to the extent he has denigrated and politicized science and intellectual pursuits in general, I’d say it is hyper-rational.
You want a list? Here you go for starters:
Given the greatest gift any president ever received–$200+ billion in government budget surpluses, he turned it into $400+ billion deficits, without improving Americans’ health, infrastructure, education, or inequality;
After receiving warnings (”Bin Laden Determined to Attack in US”), he failed to prevent the 9/11 attacks;
Took resources away from the attack on the country that harbored the 9/11 attackers (Afghanistan) to attack Iraq, which didn’t have anything to do with it, while ignoring (and cutting deals with) others that did (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan);
Hell, it will take historians volumes to document this stuff and I’ve got work to do, so I’ll cut this off and just say: Terri Schiavo.
Now, as for W himself, as a human being? Hell, I still actually can feel something for him. Beloved sister dead as a young child, heroic father gone all the time (”you’ll never measure up”), overbearing mother, difficulty in school or performing as expected (”George, you’re such a fuck-up”, “Why can’t you be more like Jeb?”, “OK, but this is the last time my buddies and I bail you out!”). What chance did he have?
Unfortunately, the world has been to one to pay the price for him. He hasn’t learned a damn thing. He needs to be slowly and carefully talked out of the Oval Office, away from the nookular button, taken someplace he can never hurt anyone again (The Hague?), and never paid attention to again (except as a cautionary tale).