I was watching MSNBC this morning and wondering how much the media thrall surrounding Barack Obama has been worth to his campaign.
Having seen Obama mania up close and personal the media didn't make it up, but the way they cover this race -- the language they use to talk about him, his charisma, his "youth movement," his momentum and his star qualilty all stand in sharp contrast to the way they pick apart every detail of Clinton.
They obsess over her in irrational and completely contradictory ways and just seem to find it unseemly that a middle aged woman won't quietly remove herself from the national stage and stop making a bunch of men under 35 uncomfortable with her very presence.
Stanley Fish, writing today in the NYT, gives the best description I've read of the Hillary Hating phenomenon:
I have been thinking about writing this column for some time, but I have hesitated because of a fear that it would advance the agenda that is its target. That is the agenda of Hillary Clinton-hating.
Its existence is hardly news — it is routinely referred to by commentators on the present campaign and it has been documented in essays and books — but the details of it can still startle when you encounter them up close. In the January issue of GQ, Jason Horowitz described the world of Hillary haters, many of whom he has interviewed. Horowitz finds that the hostile characterizations of Clinton do not add up to a coherent account of her hatefulness. She is vilified for being a feminist and for not being one, for being an extreme leftist and for being a “warmongering hawk,” for being godless and for being “frighteningly fundamentalist,” for being the victim of her husband’s peccadilloes and for enabling them. “She is,” Horowitz concludes, “an empty vessel into which [her detractors] can pour everything they detest.” (In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.)
This is not to say that there are no rational, well-considered reasons for opposing Clinton’s candidacy. You may dislike her policies (which she has not been reluctant to explain in great detail). You may not be able to get past her vote to authorize the Iraq war. You may think her personality unsuited to the tasks of inspiring and uniting the American people. You may believe that if this is truly a change election, she is not the one to bring about real change.
But the people and groups Horowitz surveys have brought criticism of Clinton to what sportswriters call “the next level,” in this case to the level of personal vituperation unconnected to, and often unconcerned with, the facts. These people are obsessed with things like her hair styles, the “strangeness” of her eyes — “Analysis of Clinton’s eyes is a favorite motif among her most rabid adversaries” — and they retail and recycle items from what Horowitz calls “The Crazy Files”: she’s Osama bin Laden’s candidate; she kills cats; she’s a witch (this is not meant metaphorically).
But this list, however loony-tunes it may be, does not begin to touch the craziness of the hardcore members of this cult. Back in November, I wrote a column on Clinton’s response to a question about giving driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. My reward was to pick up an e-mail pal who has to date sent me 24 lengthy documents culled from what he calls his “Hillary File.” If you take that file on faith, Hillary Clinton is a murderer, a burglar, a destroyer of property, a blackmailer, a psychological rapist, a white-collar criminal, an adulteress, a blasphemer, a liar, the proprietor of a secret police, a predatory lender, a misogynist, a witness tamperer, a street criminal, a criminal intimidator, a harasser and a sociopath. These accusations are “supported” by innuendo, tortured logic, strained conclusions and photographs that are declared to tell their own story, but don’t.
I get those emails. The guy is nothing if not thorough. And I agree with Fish's assessment:
Compared to this, the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry was a model of objectivity. When the heading of a section of the “Hillary File” reads “Have the Clintons ever murdered anyone?” — and it turns out to be a rhetorical question like “Is the Pope Catholic?” — you know that you’ve entered cuckooland.
Horowitz warns that as the campaign heats up, this “type of discourse will likely not stay on the fringes for long,” and he predicts that some of it will be made use of by Republican operatives. But he is behind the curve, for the spirit informing it has already made its way into mainstream media. Respected political commentators devote precious network time to deep analyses of her laugh. Everyone blames her for what her husband does or for what he doesn’t do. (This is what the compound “Billary” is all about.) If she answers questions aggressively, she is shrill. If she moderates her tone, she’s just play-acting. If she cries, she’s faking. If she doesn’t, she’s too masculine. If she dresses conservatively, she’s dowdy. If she doesn’t, she’s inappropriately provocative.
None of those who say and write these things is an official Hillary Clinton-hater (some profess to like and admire her), but they are surely doing the group’s work.
One almost prefers an up-front hater (although he tells Horowitz that he doesn’t like the word) like Dick Morris, who writes in a recent New York Post op-ed of the Clintons’ “reprehensible politics of personal destruction” (does he think he’s throwing bouquets?), and accuses them of invading the privacy of opponents, of blackmailing and threatening women, and of “whatever slimy tactics they felt they needed.” Morris calls Harold Ickes, a Clinton aide, a “hit man” for the president, and he calls the president “Hillary’s hit man.”
This is exactly the language of the most vicious anti-Hillary Web sites, and here it is baptized by its appearance in a major newspaper.
Horowitz observes that there is an “inexhaustible fertile market of Clinton hostility,” but that “the search for a unifying theory of what drives Hillary’s most fanatical opponents is a futile one.” The reason is that nothing drives it; it is that most sought-after thing, a self-replenishing, perpetual-energy machine.
The closest analogy is to anti-Semitism. But before you hit the comment button, I don’t mean that the two are alike either in their significance or in the damage they do. It’s just that they both feed on air and flourish independently of anything external to their obsessions. Anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews and anti-Hillaryism doesn’t need Hillary, except as a figment of its collective imagination. However this campaign turns out, Hillary-hating, like rock ‘n’ roll, is here to stay.
I apologize in advance for quoting Fish's post in its entirety but I think it deserves to be read. If Hillary Clinton does pull this thing off, she will have done so against the seemingly insurmountable weight of 16 years of being the target of misogny and hatred that have focused into a narrative that has also been appropriated by many on the so-called "left" to take her down -- and certainly by the media.
I guess she didn't get the memo -- middle aged women are supposed to dry up, go home and be invisible.
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Jane!
And they’re making a big deal about here “crying” again.
“her”
It’s the war, stupid.
Vote Obama.
I kind of like her eyes. She’ll be fine if she wins the nomination, so will Obama. We’re going to completely kick the GOP’s ass in November. (Such a longgg post, didn’t finish it yet . . . .)
The pundits and writers are enraged at the idea that they don’t get to choose the candidate. They believe they know best, that THEY are the story and that everyone else should just shut up. Not gonna happen.
I’m for Obama, but I certainly agree with the essence of your post. It is simply mind boggling the irrational hatred directed at her. I’ve got serious issues with her war vote, but if she gets the nomination I’ll gladly vote for her vs. any of the Double Gitmo, 100 year occupation bunch.
Unfortunately (for me) every Hillary haters feels like a Sha-hater. (No, not literally!).
I grew up in the 60’s, was one of a few women to attend a mid-west college, went into business and suffered the slings and arrows of trying to make it “in a man’s world” (specifically advertising in Detroit in the late 60’s for one of the auto companies.) (Good news…I succeeded!)
I hate the haters in a way that is not healthy. They pick at her clothes. Her voice. Her hair. Her legs. Her husband. And then they simply make up shit about her.
Quite frankly, I have become a rabid Hillary supporter - simply because of the hate that is being slung at her. GO HILLARY!!!
I agree that Hillary has had a tough time, and that the press, for reasons that continue to escape me, wants to take her down. That granted, I still think the Dems have a better chance with Obama heading the ticket than her. On issues of competency, I don’t see much of a difference. It’s nice she knows all the stuff she knows, but she isn’t supposed, actually, to execute all that stuff. That’s what the President hires cabinet secretaries to do. It’s very good that, like her husband, she understands the issues at considerable depth. I don’t doubt that Obama can acquire the same mastery in short time. We can’t take the present idiot in the White House as an example of an untried executive. As has been noted many times, JFK had no executive experience prior to becoming elected, but he hired good people and listened to them.
I think Mrs Clinton would make a superb president. But she drags down the ticket, and would be presiding over a mixed to hostile Congress. That’s the bottom line the super-delegates should be pondering.
Anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews and anti-Hillaryism doesn’t need Hillary, except as a figment of its collective imagination.
Call it what it is: misogyny. If Pelosi, or any woman other than Libby Dole were running for president, they would say the same things about her.
Misogyny runs deeper than racism, or at least, the language and psychology of racism has been more thoroughly discredited. Of course, black men got the right to vote long before women did.
So true. I get extremely annoyed when I see people with whom I agree politically swallow the Hillary-haters’ lingo and attitude toward her. (And I voted for Edwards, just before he dropped out, so this isn’t blind allegiance.
I expect Republicans to be vile and dishonest about her. I hate it when Democrats do the same thing.
The Pity vote will not work in the fall. I voted for Bill 2x and have been a loyal democrat for years. My dislike of Senator Clinton is her playing politics as usual with this election. Her ties to special interests and corporate lobbyist is another nail in her coffin. We don’t need more business as usual. I heard the same crap from her husband in 92 and where are we now. That’s why CHANGE is not just a catchphrase but something that you can feel and touch.
BTW…the crying thing, enough already. I can understand emotions, but no one else is crying on the campaign trail every 2 weeks. I though she was tough and tested?
Oh Jane are you gonna get it now. Don’t you know that you are not allowed to say anything about Hillary Clinton that isn’t snide, nasty, or positively demented? And much of this rabid hatred is coming from the left. Many of the worst and nastiest smears are coming at her from the left.
Media has conditioned people like Pavlov’s dogs and just the word “Clinton” sends some people into an irrational rage. Ask many of them why they hate her and they can’t tell you. Some just parrot remarks about her vote for the war or the Patriot Act. (Why don’t they hate the rest of the Democrats that voted for the war or the Patriot Act?) It obsessional, it’s irrational and it’s all over Left Blogostan. It’s also disgraceful and disgusting. As a woman, an older woman, it is also frightening. I knew women weren’t much respected in this country for all our touting of “Mom and Apple Pie”, but I had no idea we were so despised.
If I had one word to describe Hillary’s abilities, it would be “competence”. That’s not to say that I like her politics–I don’t, in general. But competence is the antithesis of GW, and that’s something important.
The MSM has been making up shit about our Dem candidates for my entire life. Since the ‘04 election, I think we have either learned to ignore the made up shit, or we have learned to fight back instantly and aggressively. Or there is an entire new cohort of voters (18-29?) who just never listen to or read the “news.” One way or the other, the made up shit is not having the same effect this time around.
The Hillary haters hate Hillary because she is married to Bill and in their minds that makes it alright.
Excellent post. I’m an old white guy. I seriously haven’t made up my mind but will support whichever candidate the Democrats nominate. However, every time I begin to consider Obama I get a load of the vomit against Hillary and tend to come out fighting. We listened to this primordial hatred from the day the Clinton’s came into office.
I believe it would be helpful to differentiate enthusiasm by voters for Barack Obama from MSM hate-mongering. I watched the Obama rally from UCLA on C-Span yesterday afternoon and was deeply impressed by the five women on the stage. I remembered some of the feelings I had as a much younger man when the late Bobby Kennedy was campaigning for the Democratic nomination.
Jane!!
Good Heavens!
You don’t actually read the ‘Fish’ do you?
Most times he’s best just left wrapped up in them old newspapers.
Why I wouldn’t ever freeze him, it wouldn’t improve his ossification and it’s not worth the energy.
My admiration for your intestinal fortitude grows every sinlge day.
If Obama had her qualifications, I would be for him in a New York minute. If Hillary had Obama’s qualifications, I would laugh her off the stage.
Obama’s supporters just want to fall in love. Hillary represents the adult that says to them that you don’t even know him. They reply, but I love him. It is “Faith Based Politics”. I have had enough of this politics of being ruled by the “gut”. Charisima is hardly the equal of knowledge, experience, and common sense.
People hate her because she stands in their way of being “in love”. Obama’s supporters have now tried to tie him into being the second coming. Remember when the Bushies believed he was ordained by God. This is about the same thing. It is so troubling, to say the least.
I want to like Hillary but when I think of the Clinton machine in the White House, I think its time for a change. I think that the world will think more of us having the Obamas.
All this hate stuff is a distraction from the real issue: Corporate Feudalism. That way, the top get to do their thing unopposed, unrecognized.
Huffpo has become an Obama fan site - really sad to see our own buy into the old Republican talking points about Hillary. I supported Edwards. I didn’t like Hillary’s Iraq vote but I don’t feel it would have made an actual difference in the result, so I’m not holding it against her. I just can’t choose form over substance.
I like Hillary — it’s Bill I can’t stand.
I wish Hillary didn’t have Bill’s baggage, and the foaming-at-the-mouth pack of rabid wingnut hyenas nipping at her heels.
While there is no question the wingnuts will throw everything they have at either Hillary or Obama, they’ve already imprinted their negative image of Hillary in public opinion. Like it or not, 16 years of wingnut hate have left a mark.
All in all, I’m feeling better about Hillary than I have in a while — if only her last name wasn’t Clinton.
This concert will be streamed tonight for Obama. My husband is a Dead Head, Im not but I love the music.
http://www.iclips.net/deadheadsforobama.php
I liked the post, but I do have one issue with Mr. Fish’s asssessment.
Unlike those of us who hate Bush, most of the Clinton haters have, at best, a tenuous grasp on reality.
Hatred of Bush is founded in fact: how he led us to war, his mismanagement of it, his lack of concern for New Orleans (or anyone else), the signing statements, spying, torture, etc. etc. etc.
Most hatred of Hillary is founded on the wild-eyed stupidity of those who think Rush Limbaugh is a journalist. These folks think Hillary personally killed Vince Foster. They think she’s a lesbian. Etc. etc. etc.
There really is no comparison between the two.
This is from today’s “The Swamp” (sorry, no link). The effort to push this into the MSM will be unrelenting, and will probably succeed. Also, the first comment in the post is a doozy-sums up Jane’s point perfectly.
“Hillary Clinton cries in Connecticut
by Jason George
NEW HAVEN, Conn. – Sen. Hillary Clinton teared up this morning at an event at the Yale Child Study Center, where she worked while in law school in the early 1970s.
Penn Rhodeen, who was introducing Clinton, began to choke up, leading Clinton’s eyes to fill with tears, which she wiped out of her left eye. At the time, Rhodeen was saying how proud he was that sheepskin-coat, bell-bottom-wearing young woman he met in 1972 was now running for president.”
I guess we are self-identifying here because age and gender define us to a certain extent whether we like it or not. So, I’m an old white guy, too. And a DFH when I’m commenting online. And I do think what the DLC did to the Dems was a disgusting sell-out to corporate interests. But I don’t hate Hillary, I think she is a great campaigner, she has plenty of war-room support to fend off the made-up shit, she has a billion surrogates, and if she wins the nomination I think women will be thrilled, no matter what they have been saying in exit polls.
Just curious. For the “she takes down the ticket” argument — if Obama wins the nod, do you think that Rezko isn’t going to be on your screen every other second? That the “inexperience” everyone finds so fresh isn’t going to be used against him? That the Republicans are going to care that you call them racists, or that the media will echo those sentiments?
In a nutshell — do you think the thrall will last?
It’s all Limpball’s fault. The relentless Clinton bashing on the radio in the 90’s infiltrated everywhere. “Slick Willy”…stuff like that…and Limpball’s constant whining about “it’s all for the children”….
He really helped install Bushco and destroy the nation.
O/t -
Has anyone else been listening to the WH budget director’s presser?
Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that Stanley Fish approved of invading Iraq? Correct me if I’m wrong.
This is not the first time, incidentally, that he has been so chivalrous toward Clinton:
(from http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/.....ure-sorry/)
“This brings us to where we were always going, the issue of Hillary Clinton’s obligation in the present with respect to an act she performed in the past. Senator Clinton’s detractors accuse her of having voted for the Iraq war and therefore of being at least partly responsible for the mess we now find ourselves in; they say she should apologize. She replies, No, I voted to authorize the use of force in the event that all other options were explored and proved futile. Here is what she said during the Senate debate in October, 2002. “A vote for [the resolution] is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president and we say to him – Use these powers wisely and as a last resort.” In her view he did neither, and it is he, not she, who is responsible for the present state of affairs. In short, she is admitting to putting her faith in the wrong person (she has said, “I take responsibility for that vote”), but refusing to accept the blame for what he subsequently did, that is, refusing to take the blame for the war.”
Mishun Akomplyshed
My husband is a Dead Head, Im not but I love the music.
What does that mean?
Sorry Starbuck, but Corporate Feudalism is a different symptom of the same disease. Hegemony is the problem.
Jane Hamsher:
You should have apologized for quoting Fish, period.
There Ya go -
That ‘truth’ stuff again -
Since you are ‘equal-opportunity’ in your comment, both ’sides’ is not amused.
But I am!
We married two years ago and he has followed the Dead for decades. I have really just started liking them.
I don’t either one of them and I won’t get shamed into changing my mind. I she gets nominated I’ll vote for her, that’s the best I can do.
So much of Clinton’s coverage is shallow and misogynistic which is why I go to Chris Matthews for all my Hillary coverage.
I’m not a hater, although there are many. I thought her comeback in NH was backlash against a wave of misogyny that Tweety et al unleashed. I have often wondered about the disproportionate political vitriol she attracts. I find it particularly distasteful when the vitriol comes from Democrats.
However:
I do think her IWR vote was craven. I do not want any more dynastic politics. I do think inspiration matters.
Obviously I’ve decided for Obama.
Got it. “Truckin up To Buffalo” or “The Grateful Dead Movie” DVD’s, they give a pretty good feel for them.
It’s a longstanding Republican tactic — try to discredit the speaker rather than deal with what’s being said, and its adoption in the service of rank misogyny practiced by those who hide behind just about anything to justify it is one of the hallmarks of this race.
I went to one concert after Jerry and I have never seen so many people who liked each other in my life. Felt good.
Explain a bit more because I couldn’t disagree more with that statement. Why do people feel compelled to compare misogyny and racism? Both are horrible, both exist and neither can be said to be worse than the other. I, as a latina, certainly face both…Hillary wouldn’t…my father may have it worse as a latino male in a society that is anti-immigrant (I am generalizing here).
I guess my point is that such an argument angers me to my root because it the statement in itself says that a white women has it worse than any person of color, which during black history month is especially insensitive.
Hillary’s nomination and eventual election will be a kick in the balls to every pygmy-dicked pasty white man in America and the bitter wives and daughters who suffer from their insecurities. It’s that simple. I am ambivalent about Mr. Obama, and not always in agreement with Mrs. Clinton. However, it is time for this country to get the fuck over its “Girl Hater Guys Club” mentality. It’s just so sickeningly childish.
Chris Matthews, I’m talking to you!
I agree. I didn’t hate Bush initially, and even sort of pitied him in a Dan Quayle sort of way. It was when I fully understood the spoiled arrogance, lack of interest world affairs, self centeredness, nasty bullying personality, and damage done to the U.S., at home and abroad, that I would classify my feelings as, possibly, hatred. Maybe I’m just coloring the characature with my own imaginings, but I don’t think so.
On the other hand, I heard people I worked with expressing hatred of Hillary before the Clinton’s even came into office and they knew nothing about her, except perhaps that she had originally gone by the name Rodham.
Explain what you mean by ‘hegemony,’ please.
Thus it was the GWB became president.
Yea, the Clinton’s never engage in any slimy tactics.
Misogyny is alive and well in every race and ethnic group. I like to remind readers that when Shirley Chisholm ran as a candidate for president, she was asked if it was more difficult running as a woman or a black? Without hesitating she said, “As a woman.” She continued by stating that the black caucus in politics rejected her and trivialized her positions as much as the white men. Men did not accept her, regardless of race or ethnic group.
This runs deep. Yes, there are some men out there who are much more accepting of women in positions of power but they are few and far between.
I still prefer John Edwards and am now in a dilemma. I find myself defending Hillary because I hear the hatred rather than stating the issues that are objectionable. Bigotry and hate is alive and well in America. I also find myself defending Obama for the same reasons. I get hateful e-mails about him that have no other purpose but to incite violence. So, I find myself defending him, as well.
It is against the law to physically attack Hillary and beat her within an inch of her life but the deep seeded desire is there so instead, she is beaten up verbally. There is no law against that. Besides, if enough hate is generated towards either of these candidates, perhaps some twisted mind, of which there are many, will do the greater deed for them.
A Miracle!
Well if it is, I would suggest mentioning the Keating Five and John McCain in all of the alternating non-Rezko seconds.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that it will not happen. He’s St. John McCain and it’s always good for the Republicans.
It is misogyny, Xenos, but it’s not just misogyny. It began as a cult of hatred of WJC. When Hillary got swept up into that, the pea-brains began piling anti-female stereotypes onto her, as the easiest form of attack; then expanded all of the nutsoid conspiracy theories around Bill so she could get included too. It was a resonance between bone-deep misogyny and skull-thick hatred of all things “liberal”. I agree, any Democratic woman would be manacled by a similar set of can’t-win misogynistic double binds from the press. But HRC is uniquely hated. Probably the only historical analogy is the firestorm that would have enveloped Eleanor Roosevelt if she’d been able to make a run for the White House. And Eleanor never had to cope with Savage Nation.
I’m convinced Obama is the better candidate, for a longish list of well hashed over reasons. Still and all, it’s been an eye opener for this sixty something male to learn how deeply unacceptable race-baiting has become in 21st century America, at the same time as blatant gender-baiting seems to get a pass with both the media and most of the male half of the population.
Total agreement here. I can’t believe how the Obama supporters are now trashing Joe Wilson for supporting Hillary and Paul Krugman for supporting her health care plan (versus Obama’s; he actually favored Edwards’s plan over Hil’s and Obama’s — and so did I). And hearing Dems calling Bill Clinton a racist is something I never expected to experience in my lifetime.
Hegemony:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony
Which is another reason I am so fond of them. You wold never catch Bill playing the race card or, given Bill’s non-inhalation history, some staffer bringing up drugs or other youthful pecadillos. That’s because they have class, of a certain kind.
I’m so glad to see this addressed.
Hatred of women simply permeates our culture, and yes, I take it personally. I take Hillary hatred personally.
Whenever I hear a Democrat saying something against her that I’ve heard from Rush Limbaugh listeners years ago, I just marvel at his reach. What a job he’s done, to get Dems to repeat his message.
Sexist pig
Right on. Michelle Obama’s speech yesterday was more powerful than Barack’s coming out speech at the ‘04 Convention, to me at least. I think I’d rather have her running than him. Last year, I was making serious efforts to figure out ways to get Pelosi in the White House (not so sure about that now…). My family and I are seriously contemplating a move so we can work on Cindy Sheehan’s campaign right now. FDL has become my first source of “news” and commentary, thanks to the writings of incredible women.
Having said this, I really dislike Hillary and her husband. I was warming up to her leading up to Iowa, thinking she was “inevitable” as the BigMedia has been saying for over 5 years, but her campaign’s actions since Iowa have reminded me why I disliked the Clintons in the first place. Their ACTIONS, and I can make a very long list of specific actions as to why I feel this why. It’s not blind hatred as some claim.
Making the distinction between BigMedia’s misogynistic coverage of her and people like myself is important. Lumping people like myself into the same category of the Tweety’s and Timmeh’s is not helping to reduce society’s misogyny, or helping Democrats win elections IMHO.
It is too bad that philosophy 101, or ‘logic’ is no longer in vogue, false arguments of all sorts, are the bread and butter of the right. including, the ‘big stick’ argument, ‘You are with us, or against us.’
We are not talking ‘rocket science’ grasp, simply a basic appreciation of ‘reason’ and ‘honesty’ two ‘quaint’ concepts already out to pasture, if not already knackered.
It’s not possible that people have formed their opinions of the Clinton’s based on observing them is it?
OT - Severe weather, including tornadoes and possibly power outages are forecast for a number of midwest and southern Super Tuesday states. How will this affect voting on voting machines in sites without a generator or UPS? Do states have contingency plans (other than paper ballots) for such events? Would it include a rescheduling of the primary?
I’m not clear on what you’re saying. Is mine the “longstanding Republican tactic”, that of discrediting the speaker (Fish)?
I’ll take it that’s what you mean, to which I’ll answer: context is not irrelevant (see #32). If you quote Stanley Fish, you should expect commenters glancing familiar with his oeuvre to respond with ad hominem arguemnts directed at him, no less than they would at a David Brooks or someone similar.
By the way, a propos of the fawning coverage Obama gets, that was what made me suspicious of him to begin with. The best explanation of that came from Matthew Yglesias: the MSM and commenters like Brooks, for example, praise him with the hope and expectation that he will lose to Clinton for the nomination: it’s an early start towards villainizing her by comparison with the saintly Obama.
Fish:
Glad to know that I can ignore all the Hillary-hating emails.
Now if I only knew what to do with the other pile of emails I get — with their “supporting documentation” — saying things like Barack is a Muslim, refuses to say the pledge of allegiance, and was sworn in on a Koran.
Thanks, Jane.
Sad to say, it’s not as if choosing one of these two candidates will remove garbage like this from the political discourse.
I blame Lee Atwater and his disciple, Karl Rove.
You know, I REALLY wanted to be able to support her for one reason only: because she’s a woman. The deeper I looked into her politics and policy positions, however, I just could not, would not. I agonized for a long while over my decision to support Obama. I felt as though I was betraying a life-long dream, to see a woman in the White House. I still have this dream and desire. Senator Clinton is not the woman I feel would be the best woman for that position. Not right now. Maybe never.
Gotsha, and I agrees. Thanks for linkerage.
Yeah Hillary gets the shit kicked out of her daily—and unfairly in most cases.
I was on a long airplane ride saturday and read the article about her in New Yorker. I found it excellent and recommend it to anyone who wants to get a little deeper into the story of this woman.
I suspect that she would be the better president- not sure if she’s the most electable. In any event- both dem candidates are strong.
I don’t hate Hillary, I like her. I don’t like what she did with that Iraq vote and her refusal to rise above it and simply declare.
I was mislead like so many Americans. I should not have been because I am a senator and I was supposed to exercise due diligence. I made some assumptions which not only turned out to be wrong, but allowed a series of lies to follow on and led us into a disastrous attack on a sovereign nation. I made a mistake and I won’t let that happen again, certainly as far as the use of force.
But she won’t admit the error because it shows that she was naive, too trusting of Bush, weak on terror or some other “perceived” flaw.
I don’t hate her, and she is smart and would be a decent president assuming she can keep the corporations out of the white house and focus on the needs of the people. Same with Obama.
We’ll see.
Anyone whose entire staff and husband smugly felt she was a shoe-in needed a major lesson in humility. May the American people finally succeed in giving her one. Vote Obama.
But some people hated them BEFORE he took office. I don’t think that most people even know why they hate her. But I can assure you that it has something to do with her being a woman. If you have never felt that kind of pressure you have no idea what it’s like. Ever been fired from a job because you wouldn’t sleep with a customer?
This post by DHinMI sums up my support of Obama —
Why I Want Barack Obama to Be the Democratic Nominee for President
It’s a long and thoughtful post, that I almost completely agree with. Although I have concerns about both Obama and Hillary, I will support our nominee whoever it may be — but tomorrow, I’ll caucus for Obama.
Droll, Hugh, Droll. But, true.
I moderate a political chatroom at a small chat site, usually no more than two or three people talking at a time (though we have lurkers that don’t post). This morning I posted something to the effect of “so someone tell why in tomorrow’s primary I should vote for Clinton over Obama, or vice-versa” (I was an Edwards fan all the way, now thinking he’d make a GREAT attorney general)
Last week when someone asked a similar question, one woman (a McCain fan) said she could never vote for Hillary because, and I quote, “She thinks she’s so much smarter than everybody else” Ooookaaaaay…
So this is a direct cut and paste from the response I received to that question this morning.
~AKA~
Kes..you are in a pickle as Hillary is a gal…I would go with Obama..that way if he wins you wont have to hear about Hillary and all the bad stuff associated with her..day after day after day!!
[Ignore all messages from ~AKA~ ][02/04/2008 15:44:29]
WTF???
Reminds me of something I read not long ago - some people couldn’t get a clue if they carried clue bait, painted themselves in clue scent, and walked into the middle of herd of clues during clue season!
How’s that manly saying go? Better to be strong and wrong…
I reject the false balance implicit in lumping all Hillary-hating into one barrel.
Hillary is my Senator. I hate her no less than I hate my other Senator, Charles Schumer, and that makes me neither a misogynist in the first instance nor an anti-Semite in the second.
People who hate Hillary because of her complicity in the death of Vince Foster don’t have their facts straight. People who hate her because of her (still unapologetic) complicity in the deaths of half a million Iraqis do.
I have no brief for Obama, either. He may have criticized attacking Iraq before entering the Senate, but he glommed onto Lieberman once he got there and has helped fund the war ever since. And his healthcare plan sucks worse than Clinton’s, when what we need — and don’t have — is a candidate supporting Conyers’s Medicare for All bill.
I heard Michele Obama being interviewed today. She was asked if Hillary won the Democratic nomination, would she and Barack support her. Michele said that she didn’t know if she could support her. It would be something she would have to think about long and hard. And then in the next sentence she said they would of course support whomever the Democrats nominated. It was a very clever tactic. And very nasty. But if called out on what she said, she could say that she said they would support the nominee of the Democrats. Clever. Nasty. A Passive agressive way to behave. Troubling. Imagine if Hillary said she didn’t know if she would support the Democratic nominee. Scary!
I couldn’t disagree with you more. I think they GOP has something truly reprehensible in store for Obama. In fact, I see evidence already of their fall campaign against him. The narrative is already in the news but most people haven’t made the connection yet. And if I’m right, there won’t be a damn thing we can do about it. When we see it start up in earnest, the opposing voices will be put on mute again and the blogs will be the only ones telling the truth.
The wingers desperately want Obama to win. Yeah, they hate Clinton, but her numbers will improve once she wins the nomination. And, really, this is about the limit of what they can throw at her.
Obama? Not a prayer.
And for the record, I like Obama’s policies over Clinton’s - but I just have to shake my head over some of the nasty comments thrown out, especially by people who think just because I like Obama, I automatically agree with their assessment of Clinton.
Would you have felt “torn” about voting for Margaret Thatcher over whoever she beat?
Don’t presume there’s “no difference” between the two remaining Demcoratic candidaates. There’s a big difference between Clinton the two main primary opponents she’s faced: she supported the war and has not recanted her vote. This is RFK-Humphrey redux. This boo-hooing about the slights she’s suffered exasperates me. I think it’s counterpropaganda (maybe not on JH’s part, personally) meant to “humanize” this warmonger or something for the benefit of Democratic primary voters.
What kind of pressure is that you are talking about, being a woman? I’m sure you wouldn’t have asked if you didn’t have a pretty good idea I am not.
But Senator Obama has said all along that he would support Senator Clinton if she was nominated. I suggest you offer the alternate question to Former President Clinton and pay attention to his response????
Shirley Chisholm said:
…………
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link
Here is another take on the appalling sexism Hillary has had to endure.
http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html
It is rerally quite good.
You must post some warning when turning loose humor of the sort contained in that last line!
More, please, just let me prepare (gasp- oh I can’t see- my eyes -full of laugh tears -). Okay, i’m gonna expect that sort of stuff from you fron now on!
For what it is worth…
I’m an Edwards supporter who will vote for Hillary tomorrow
in Mass…
There is just something about Obama’s speeches that turns me off…
and I think a woman prez would be good for the country…
Is it nasty because she is the wife of someone running for office? Was it honesty or something more nefarious? I had the same conversation with myself when Edwards dropped out. Then I came to my senses and realized that is is bigger than some candidate, it is about the SCOTUS, it is about healthcare, the economy, etc. I don’t know, I have never been any good at reading minds and can’t guess as to why people say what they do.
When Bill Kristol can say on national television, without impunity, that white women are a problem that aren’t going away - something is radically horribly wrong. It’s institutionalized misogyny.
Hillary Clinton is a brilliant woman who could run circles, on one foot, around william the bloody kristol, Tucker Carlson, Pumpkin head and the rest of those friggin blow hards. They’re scared shitless of her. And if anyone wonders if Bill would be pulling the strings, they’re mistaken. She’s as tenacious and capable as she is brilliant.
Jane, have you read THIS on the Hillary hating? Lily15 linked to it here during late night.
I do know that you are a male. I asked if, as a male, you could understand what it is like to be a woman.
Of course, you can’t, but believe me, it isn’t pretty. To feel that no matter what you do you are not acceptable.
beat me to it by 10 seconds!
Here’s a fairy tale for ya:
If Michelle Obama was running against Barack, I think Michelle would win in a landslide. Seriously. She’s so incredible that I think she could overcome the overt misogyny within American society. Hillary is not a good candidate and as a result, has lost a Rudi-like amount of ground in the last month. Sexism may play some role this, but her failings play a much greater role IMO.
I’ll try to issue a spew alert from now on ; - )