chumpy

chumpy mc flight suit

mornin BT

we sure excel in our reign of terror

There’s nothing to win!

It’s not ours to win, It’s a sovereign nation which has it’s own problems. It has not attacked us and there is no reason for us to be over there bombing and running around after what we claim are our “enemies.”

What a load of rubbish!

In matters of war, it’s very difficult to distinguish between Republicans’ notion of “success” and what normal people call “failure.”

“The prospect of again losing significant parts of Afghanistan to the forces of Islamic extremists has moved from the improbable to the possible,” the study says, warning that Afghanistan could revert to a “failed state.”

I’m missing something, hasn’t this already happened?

isn’t afghanistan already the supplier to 90 percent of heroin?

aren’t the tali ban back in controll?

what am I missing with that statement

A suicide bomber just killed one of the deputy governors of a province yesterday too.

Canada is buckling under the pressure and so is the UK and our illustrious Sec. Def. is running around pinning the blame on the allies instead of the idiots who treated Afghanistan as an afterthought to Iraq after Bush decided to avenge his blubbering Poppy.

-G

Hi Blue Texan

I hate George Bush.

Yo, Blue Texan…

Who lost Afghanistan? Chimpy did.

Like the Iran NIE, the Administration will ignore this report.

Ah, to live in a bubble. A sweet, impenetrable bubble.

“chumpy mc flight suit bubble boy”

never ,ever watch this

http://www.pbs.org/independent.....ghanistan/

The prospect of again losing significant parts of Afghanistan to the forces of Islamic extremists has moved from the improbable to the possible

And what is the “end game”? Are the US troops going to have to stay there “forever” to keep the dreaded muslims at bay? Maybe make Afganistan a “Christian” state? Is there an end plan?

Gee, that makes it sounds like the chimp only thinks of himself as Commander in Chief and that it actually takes congress to declare war.

does your hate know a boundary?

i seriously wonder what leatherbound Andrea Greenspin thinks of all this nonsense

I am passionate

must leave ….that pbs program on Afghani women slays me for a good while

But at least under US stewardship Afghanistan has become a model tolerance….

Journalist sentenced to death for insulting Islam.

Maybe not so much.

-G

Operation Endless Clusterfuck.

-G

How come Republicans never worry about dead fetuses and dead babies in Afghanistan?

The Canadians, who have been doing the heavy lifting in the South want to pull out by this time next year, unless their (our) troops can be put in a less lethal part of the country. I saw the current brigade last August marching across Jeanne Mance Park towards the McGill stadium to watch a professional football game. I’d never seen troops march off road before. They flowed over the terrain like a viscuous fluid. I watched them, and new that some proportion of that really happy group weren’t coming back, and of those who were, some would return without limbs.

It’s all over.

I’ve been re-reading the history of the Thirty Years War by Geoffrey Parker. It’s long and complicated and takes time to master because there are so many places and players. It is eerie how much that terrible time, which killed off close to 40 percent of Germany’s population, feels like our own. It ended when the parties finally ran out of money to fund it. I think that’s what’s going to happen here, no matter who wins the election. We are going bankrupt.

Local bumpersticker is a Texas flag emblazoned George W Bush Is A
Punk-Ass Chump… like all others who invaded Afghanistan.

From Alexander the Great to today, no foreign power has ever successfully taken Afghanistan. It broke the Persians, it broke the Greeks, it broke the Romans, it broke England, it broke the Soviet Union.

What made anyone think that the United States would be different?

Ya’all watching the live testimony on Afghanistan on C-SPAN3?

From Alexander the Great to today, no foreign power has ever successfully taken Afghanistan. It broke the Persians, it broke the Greeks, it broke the Romans, it broke England, it broke the Soviet Union.

And we could have had it all for free, if we’d simply followed up with some aid and good sense at the end of Charlie Wilson’s War.

Ya’all watching the live testimony on Afghanistan on C-SPAN3?

no. thanks for the head’s up!

The real problem is that we have no idea of what we want in Afghanistan. And we have only the vaguest notion of what we don’t want; we don’t want “Islamofascism” there — whatever that means.

I hope to see ‘The Kite Runner’ today. Such a poignant book.

And we could have had it all for free, if we’d simply followed up with some aid and good sense at the end of Charlie Wilson’s War.

Hehindeedy!

So far, though I haven’t been there thru all of it, there’s been no mention of politically empowering the Pashtuns, nor selling the poppy crop for legal heroin production, the only two things I’ve heard that would make a big difference.

Both movie & book very good.

I just heard the author of the report on BBC radio say that using “failing state” is conservative. He strongly implies its already a failed state.

Doubt that. That would have required the U.S. have some idea of what might happen in the absence of positive foreign intervention, and I’ve never read anything that suggests anyone in the world had that kind of foresight. It also presumes that there would have been domestic political leadership capable of taking charge of a war torn country & reining in the war lords. All of that presumes facts not in evidence. The task in Afghanistan, even immediately after the Soviets left, was way beyond anything anyone had any idea about. The danger of deterioration was foreseen by some, but even they had no idea what the magnitude of preventing that might involve.

Are we sure we want to be heard ‘applauding’ the failed surge?

OT - the Group News Blog is recommending this post

I have a collection of old Afghan shawls. The colors and textures are a bit faded and worn, but they are still vibrant and lovely in their greens, golds and deep reds. I found them from an online source who had bought them from Afghanis who had fled to Pakistan early in the (continuing) Taliban regieme and were selling their posessions for food and shelter. I felt badly that I was simply enriching the buyer of their household treasures but I treasure them now, as well. They are a tangible reminder of the tragedy that continues to this day, fueled by our arrogant and misguided administration.

Richard Boucher disputes that Afghanistan is a failed state, and cites measures of progress.

And everything the reports recommend we’re already doing or have thought of.

But he has enormous respect for the authors of the reports.

Sounds like Afghani shawl making would be a good candidate for one of Yunus’ micro loan social business projects.

Bombs away over Iraq. Who cares?

An analysis of US air bombing in Iraq by Tom Englehardt for Asiatimes.

-G

”there’s been no mention of politically empowering the Pashtuns, nor selling the poppy crop for legal heroin production, the only two things I’ve heard that would make a big difference.”

You know, i was just having a conversation with a good buddy about this topic just the other day. It seems like a no-brainer, especially for a country that sees everything in market-based solutions. Why haven’t US drugmakers set up relationships with the Pashtuns, offering them a legal market for the opium and protection from warlords/Taliban if necessary? It seems that with a war that’s costing out soldiers all sorts of limbs could do with some extra painkillers.

Aren’t drugs like percocet, ocycodone, codeine, etc opiate-based? Where do the companies that make these drugs get their opiate base from?

Thank you for that suggestion. I should send Yunus digital photos.

Saw a movie called “Turtles Can Fly” last night. it is from Iraq and Iran. Very, very moving about the children of the area. I recommend it.

Ask the Brits and the USSR, nobody ever wins in Afghanistan. It was a very stupid war to start.

We saw that too, and loved it. Also ‘The Blackboard’, I think it was called, and ‘Osama’. One of our favorites is ‘The Colour of Paradise’, oh, and ‘Gabbeh’ is a film you should not miss.

I’ll write those down, thanks

My daughter went on a media pr junket to Turkey/Insirlik just weeks before 9/11. Like your shawls, I value the Afghani refugee rug she brought back for me…the design includes tanks and weapons; the refugees from the Soviet days. Abandoning Tora Bora for a reckless adventure and occupation in Iraq will likely haunt our nation’s legacy long after George W. Bush is dust.

Thanks for your posting, BT. And a sidebar special thanks to Jane and Christy who’ve inspired so many of us to raise our own voices. One blog can’t possibly cover every issue we care about, but the synergy of many of our voices cannot be silenced.

Prairie Sun Rising today: Let Them Eat Mud Cookies

I have read, though don’t remember where, that it is U.S. drug manufacturers who are standing in the way of buying the Afghan crop. Something about undercutting current arrangements. Don’t know if that’s true, and/or whether U.S. govt is opposed to doing anything like that because poppy production outside of U.S. authorization is immoral.

I had meant the Pashtun political empowerment to be a separate issue from poppys. The Pashtuns are 30% of the population, the largest plurality. They are (of course in the grand old empire tradition of divide & conquer) divided between Afghanistan & Pakistan. They are the Taliban. (There’s a wonderful War Nerd column about Pashtuns & how ferocious they are. I’ll try to unearth the link.) Karzai is not Pashtun, nor are they much represented in the central government. Thus they are disenfranchised. They need to be brought into the central government.

I had a dream of following the Silk Road through Central Asia. Sadly, I am too much of a coward to try that since 2000.

We saw that too, and loved it. Also ‘The Blackboard’, I think it was called, and ‘Osama’. One of our favorites is ‘The Colour of Paradise’, oh, and ‘Gabbeh’ is a film you should not miss.

also writing all these down,
thank you victoria -and you others

Yep. Ask the Brits about the Durand Line, and the failed Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was the beginning of the end of the cold war and the collapse of the Soviet Union and of communism…

My thanks, too, the FDL crew. You enrich our lives by offering us this diverse and rich group of online friends.

Saw a movie called “Turtles Can Fly”

Excellent movie. It actually depicts a Kurd community and culture.

Perpetual war, just the way the military-industrial complex likes it.

U.S. govt is opposed to doing anything like that because poppy production outside of U.S. authorization is immoral.

Yes, indeed, we certainly don’t want to see the U.S. govt doing anything immoral. /s

You know, one day, and it may not be long in coming, we are all, all of us reading online, going to say ‘enough is enough’ and march outside with the resolve to make our voices heard. And we will be amazed to see people up and down our streets standing outside as well, and we will talk together, and we will act.

world wide!

Seems to me there is harmful confusion between two completely different concepts. One concept is defeating/removing Taliban-Al Qaeda. The other concept is creating a functioning state in Afghanistan. The Taliban could be completely and utterly defeated, and Afghan. might well remain a failed state.

Afghanistan is currently, right now, a failed state, btw. It is not becoming one. It is one.

Also consider reading Flashman. It’s a whole series of adventure novels about the Brits in Afghanistan (Harry Flashman is a “roguish Victorian soldier). Quite quaint & amusing by today’s standards, but same-oke-same-ole.
http://www.amazon.com/Flashman.....038;sr=1-1

I had meant the snark to be embedded, but no harm in making it explicit. *g*

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Richard Boucher is explaining 9/11 to Senator Feingold.

Sounds like a fun series. Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll check it out.

Clenis made me do it.

I like to call the codpiece ‘Plenis’, from the plenary powers he assumes. No one else seems to find it funny tho :(

Wow. Thank you very much. What entertaining and insightful writing!

we are making our voices heard through here. We have made a difference. We will keep at it — it’s a marathon not a sprint.

I found the War Nerd article. Here’s a sample:

The Pushtun are the biggest tribe in the country, if you can call it that, by far. Afghanistan is 42% Pushtun, and the second-biggest group, the Tajiks, are only 27%. Pushtuns are — now how can I say this nicely? — insane. The craziest Taliban rules, like demanding every man have a beard that was at least ZZ Top length, aren’t Mohammed’s rules; they’re just Pushtun tribal ways…

The full article is here: http://www.exile.ru/articles/d…..LOCK_ID=35
Note that the server is in Russia, so if you click on the link, the NSA will surely be on your case, if they aren’t already.

[Mod Note; edited for length.]

I swear to God Chimpy could break an anvil with a rubber mallet.

You are right, of course. Witness Dodd and Feingold on FISA. I know we made a difference with our calls, emails and faxes. But sometimes I feel an aching need for civil disobedience!

Sorry, but there’s no time for the MSM to cover this. Briteny’s back in the hospital.

Afghanistan? Do they have oil?

Incredible clip. Thank you!!! Can’t wait to go to the link.

Knut@22: Saw that. Your PM is threatening to pull the Canadians out by the end of the year if the NATO countries don’t send more troops to help out.

I say; good on him. And Godspeed.

If there is one throbbing, pulsating, history lesson in “nation building”, it’s that NO ONE has ever successfully occupied Afghanistan. In that respect, it probably makes even less sense to try it there, than in Iraq.

I can hardly wait for what’s left of BOTH coalitions to pack up and head home, to let the Afghans start choosing which warlord they want.

Nothing else will “work”.

1,734 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Blue Texan and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“Who lost Afghanistan” indeed!!! No matter how the politics of this campaign unfolds we know goin’ in who didn’t “lose” Afghanistan…it wasn’t the brave kids who were yanked outta National Guard service and thrown into one of history’s black holes of war (ask the Soviet Union veterans or the Persians or the Romans er the Mesopotamians…). No matter who we are supportin’ for president, we owe it to the kids hunkered down in the sand and heat over there to make sure that THE WAR is the first issue up in any discussion of politics in the next 9 months. The economy, health care, the authoritarian takeover of constitutional government, the environment…they all come back to THE WAR.

We have a responsibility to history and to the rest of the world to fight THE WAR that has come home to us and threatens to consume whatever hope there is for mankind in the 21st century. We must force everyone in our daily lives, our colleagues, friends, enemies and in-laws…to take a good long look at the terrible monster of terror and death that we have loosed on the world these last six years. No discussion of the weather, new grandchildren, the Super Bowl or the Santana trade ends without mention of THE WAR…and certainly no candidate for president goes to the toilet without bein’ confronted with the question of THE WAR.

This is our only mission as Americans and as citizens of the world…no one can hide from the desperate reality of THE WAR, we simply won’t let them. The ghosts of soldiers from the last 200 years will haunt us to our graves, we have no purpose but this: to end THE WAR now!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION…I AIN’T READY TA PLAY NICE!!

War Nerd’s one of my all-time faves. Knowledgeable & irreverent about everything. Scan thru his past columns (link toward top: browse author) and read several of them.

a state, almost any state is an abstraction. Afghanistan is not a state. i’m not sure it ever was. the U.S. Congress and virtually every administration doesn’t have much, if any, regard for any culture. we’re quite aware of how the Cheney Administration has disregarded our own state department. it let Tony Blair be Fuckwad’s poodle and John Howard be his lapdog, both of who were disregarding the will of their OWN PEOPLE. and of course, we also know how the Cheney Administration treats virtually any American who isn’t a millionaire, a raving gun idiot, a snake handler or shyster. they don’t do culture. it’s “their way or the highway.” that’s all that’s needed. if they don’t get with the program? bomb the shit out of them.
Afghanistan is a mix of cultures that don’t give a rat’s ass about being a state. they have other issues. we’re not dealing with their issues, we’re trying(?) to transform them into a modern democratic state. note the question mark. of course, we’re not even trying. there are a few people that wish it would, kinda sorta happen. the best teacher i ever had was a Venezuelan wizard who grew up in the slums of Caracas. he would dismiss the Cheney Administration with two words: no knowledge.

“Revert” to a failed state?

—–The United States of America and the Republic for Which it Stands—–

We the people, represented by our duly elected have turned on ally after ally.
The people in Afghanistan we are fighting are the children of the people who we armed to fight the Soviets. The Soviets are now fighting the Muslim extremist we are fighting.
The insanity of war is likw a giant plague that flares up on every continent. Once our military gets into it they call Patriotism to keep it going.
I had an appointment with the veterans administration couple days ago and showed up as scheduled. They had cancelled the appointment without notice. I had to make a fuss to rebook, then they told me only diabetics are being given eye examines. I limit my visits once every two or three years to save them money for the people that are at most risk. It is my only medical coverage. I am 71 nd have not had nedical care for decades, not a physical.
They do not have the resources to serve us veterans so why are they starting more wars? Peace.

An interesting book on Afghanistan is “The Places In Between” by a Scot whose name I believe is Rory Stewart. He walked a few hundred miles across Afghanistan about five years ago. Apparently he speaks Farsi well enough to pass for a native. His observations are enough to prove we will never prevail. Afghanistan has been invaded many times over the last thousand years. No alleged conquerer has been moderately successful.

In many areas Afghanistan is feudal with the same family (warlord) running the place for centuries. He described two incidents which are telling. One, we dropped leaflets advising people of their new democratic rights on illiterates. In the second, a helicopter load of Americans landed to tell the people they were under a new democratic regime. They were no longer obliged to obey the warlord. They then flew away, leaving the people to deal with the warlord.

They also play a polo type game on horses. Instead of using a ball, they use a goat’s corpse. Sounds like a tough game to me.

We can’t win. That’s a prediction. It’s difficult to know how long it will take for the majority of the US to reach that conclusion. We should cut our losses and leave both Iraq and Afghanistan. We can only hope the mess will clean itself up over time. How does one apologize for killing a million people?

There’s another terrific non-profit called 50 Lanterns.

Fifty Lanterns International is a Minnesota-based nonprofit organization that partners with established humanitarian groups to provide disadvantaged communities with renewable energy sources such as solar-power lights, lanterns and water pumps.

They started (and continue) their work in Afghanistan. Particular focus there on impoverished war-widows with children.

eCAHNonmics - Will do!

NorskeFlamethrower - a very good reminder of who is doing the heavy lifting. We owe them so very much. Oh, OT I know, but while we are on books, with your nom de blog, have you ever read the classic English translation of ‘The Long Ships’ by Frans G. Bengtsson?

Afghanistan is not a state. i’m not sure it ever was.

I believe that’s inaccurate. It’s be awhile since I read a book on Afghan history, but I remember that Afghanistan was pretty stable under the King for about 40 years before his brother did a coup & threw him out. Prior to that I think it also had a long period of functioning as a country. Don’t remember details very well, but think there was some central authority but a fair degree of independence for the constituent pieces, which you point out are diverse. It was, after all, a primitive country by our standards & didn’t have much need for a central govt.

U.S. is trying to push it into modernity in one fell swoop. Such a radical transformation (after 30 years of war to boot) causes great social dislocation. And, as the War Nerd points out, the last thing the Pashtuns want is modernity.

So, all in all, the U.S. task is impossible because there’s not enough there to work with. Something less ambitious wouuld seem appropriate, perhaps, with greater autonomy in the regions?

No, Heroin, and you better believe that people in high places are connected to its distribution.

Exactly! Nobody asks the first question: “What the payoff?” i.e., “What’s in it for us?” Let alone the second question: “Is it worth the cost?”

We can’t leave yet. I’m sure someone from the Bush family is about ready to serve. Where will they show their traditional bravery?

victoria January 31st, 2008 at 8:04 am
69
In response to Elliott @ 66
You are right, of course. Witness Dodd and Feingold on FISA. I know we made a difference with our calls, emails and faxes. But sometimes I feel an aching need for civil disobedience!
____________

it would be wonderful if it could actually happen. i haven’t seen a Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi lurking about though, and it would take such a charismatic, driven person to make it happen. i’m also not sure that there are enough Americans who would get involved. there weren’t enough to get behind John Edwards to enable him to stay in the race and he wasn’t nearly as “radical” as Martin or Ghandi.

You are right, of course. Witness Dodd and Feingold on FISA. I know we made a difference with our calls, emails and faxes. But sometimes I feel an aching need for civil disobedience!

yes, three’s a lot of power in civil disobedinice. Look what the Blacks finally accomplished in the South with the sit-in at the lunchcounter at Woolworth’s or Rosa Parks and the bus boycott, to name only two examples.

And where there’s illegal drugs, you may surely find the CIA. Their $40 billion budget just is not enuf, especially in activities that Congress would not approve.

Maybe it means that things are going to have to get a hell of a lot worse before we make them better?

Amen re Edwards! We are largely a nation of safety-seeking sheep. I plead guilty. Some pups here are bold and visionary and totally out there. Others, not so much. And we’re the activists. Virtual activism is terrific, of course. But not enough. Not by a long shot.

BBC World Service yesterday had a report on Afghanistan as already a failed state…

1,734 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen ekunin and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

There is no redemption for us, not before whatever God you recognize and certainly not before history, there is only the possiblity that we may be able to redeem a bit of future for our children if we can kill this monster before it devours all hope.

KEEP THE FAITH, GOD IS WATCHIN’ AND SHE’S NOT PLEASED!!!

My legs still work, I’ll be there proudly, you might laugh but sometimes I feel like a citizen from 1776 because we are fighting the same thing in a sens. OT it dumped snow here in Bend, and it is still snowing..beautiful

and look at what they didn’t accomplish. and i mean the battle was huge and MLK Jr was assassinated by (probably) the same people we’re fighting today (or their ilk) over some of the same issues (voting, poverty, racial insults, decent schools, fair housing).

To follow up on Norske’s excellent point, why didn’t our military leaders point out Russia’s humiliating retreat from the killing poppy fields of Afghanistan to Stupie as a damn good reason to have your shit together when thinking of sending troops in there?

Even Stupie should have been aware of the fact thats where his good buddy Osama got all his training in resistance fighting, not to mention a boatload of OUR weaponry.
Probably because Afghanistan wasn’t the intended target from the gitgo, just a convenient excuse to start building up a troop presence and weapons depot’s for the real goal, Iraq’s oil.

The “Take Back America” conference is happening in D.C. March 17-19. A boatload of progressives together in one place, expenses already paid. Not sure of proximity to White House/the Mall/Congress. Is a vigil sufficient? Or must we storm the bastille? (Kidding, spies of George who are ever-vigilant about radicals like me — sigh.)

that’s certainly part of it. people have to be so up against it that they’re willing to fight, and there have to be enough of them that they can’t be ignored. and then they actually have to start fighting, probably literally.

We really dont have much power with our vote. More with our activism.
Just read this http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....id=topnews

Has some more insight into why John quit

nice typing with you folks. i gotta go do stuff now. catch y’all later!

and I will come back and say we are closer now than we were back then. Yes, long way to go, but not as far as before. and, yes too, maybe a different route than we’d hoped for.

Barbara and Fahrender, I don’t know. Will Pelosi and Conyers take notice of peaceful demonstrators, or will it take hundreds of people all over the country being arrested in local protests? Or hundreds in front of the House office building? I’m afraid it will take the comparable ‘new pearl harbor’ of the PNAC for the voices of sanity to be heard. What will it be?

Looks like Harry is writing the FISA surrender script with Miss McConnell:

And ever since both houses finally agreed to a fifteen-day extension to the Protect America Act on Tuesday, the two sides have gone underground for negotiations.

According to a source on the Hill, discussions have been progressing. Yesterday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) made an offer on how to proceed, to which Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) made a counteroffer.

Most of the details of those discussions are unknown. But, as might be expected, the Dodd/Feingold amendment, which would strip retroactive immunity for the telecoms that collaborated with the administration’s warrantless wiretapping program, is at the center of the dispute. According to the source, McConnell’s counteroffer included votes on seven of the proposed amendments (which seven is unknown — there are a number of important amendments offered by a variety of lawmakers), but, crucially, Dodd/Feingold was not one of them.

TPM

Sounds like it is time to call Harry. Again.

I’ve got to go for now, too, catch you later.

Sounds like Afghani shawl making would be a good candidate for one of Yunus’ micro loan social business projects.

Or a John McCain shopping trip.

any of these folks who talk about teh awesome pacification of afghnaistan ever read any history… or even poetry, maybe some kipling?

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

On a sexism/racism related note I kinda view your reference to Miss McConnell as feminizing in a derogatory sense.

Of course there are all kinds of people fighting hard already. One in particular could use your help. Are you ready?

http://www.cindyforcongress.org/

Hugh nailing his list to the Front Door of the Capitol is one act of civil disobedience I hope to witness.

I don’t think the door is big enough! *g

You know, using a little duct tape, he could probably get away with it. What a grand idea!!

From Alexander the Great to today, no foreign power has ever successfully taken Afghanistan. It broke the Persians, it broke the Greeks, it broke the Romans, it broke England, it broke the Soviet Union.

Not to quibble, OK yes to quibble, but the Romans were never near the place. As for the Persians, they controlled much of Afghanistan for a couple hundred years and it was Alexander the Great who broke them. There was also a mixed Greek successor state that existed in Afghanistan and Central Asia for some time after that as well. Afghanistan can be difficult to hold but throughout history the real question for empires in the area has always been if it was worth it to them to hold such a poor place in the middle of nowhere.

They also play a polo type game on horses. Instead of using a ball, they use a goat’s corpse. Sounds like a tough game to me.

The goat is the friendly version. The game was originally played with the head of a defeated enemy.