In just a few minutes, there’s going to be another Democratic presidential debate — the last one before next week’s Supernova Tuesday flock of primaries/caucuses, and the first to feature only Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. And it comes at a time when the polls show Obama is closing in rapidly on a tie with Clinton nationally, as well as in many of the states holding contests on Feb. 5th. Think there might be a tiny bit of pressure on Hillary and Barack when the TV cameras are on them tonight?
The danger for both candidates is if they view the debate too much like a cage match, which led to ugly results just over a week ago in South Carolina. As much as it may feel like a fight to the death for the respective campaigns, the nomination contest is really more like a job interview being conducted by the American people — and you don’t get hired in a job interview by running down the other people who are being considered.
Even taking the less nasty approach of "drawing a contrast" can be risky. For instance, on the surface Obama makes a good political point (and, to be fair, an excellent substantive point) with this riff on John McCain yesterday:
"It is time for new leadership that understands the way to win a debate with John McCain or any Republican who is nominated is not by nominating someone who agreed with him on voting for the war in Iraq or who agreed with him in voting to give George Bush the benefit of the doubt on Iran [. . .]
"We need to offer the American people a clear contrast on national security, and when I am the nominee of the Democratic Party, that is exactly what I will do," he said.
If Hillary is well-coached smart, she can turn this around easily with a short, simple retort: "John McCain is for staying in Iraq for a hundred years, and I’ll end the war as soon as I take office — I think the American people will see that as a clear contrast." Then Obama is left to mumble, "But what about last year, when… what about five years ago…," etc.
And if he criticizes Clinton as "a candidate who will unite the other party against us," she can calmly note that she had a lot of help getting to that point, from entrenched interests who fought her not because of her personality, but because of the change she and her husband represented — and if he doesn’t think they’re waiting to "help" polarize Obama the same way, he’s not ready for what’s facing him… and voters are taking a huge risk in nominating him.
What would impress me more (as an Edwards supporter who will be casting a ballot on Feb. 5th, I might add) is if instead of just congratulating himself in advance on his ability to frame a contrast with the Republicans and simultaneously build a "new majority" that crosses party lines, Obama would actually demonstrate it. I know it can be done, because I’ve spent a fair amount of time writing about it the past couple of years, and Barack has even started echoing some of the themes I’ve suggested. But he doesn’t do it very prominently, and I think he’d be better off dialing it up a few notches.
Perhaps I’m wasting my time yammering about this messaging stuff, though. Maybe it’s really all about having top-notch field operations (and Jane’s right, you could easily make that case based on the state contests so far), not to mention the occasional endorsement that gets you a ton of promotional time on a hugely popular radio show (thanks, Markos). But they’re going to debate anyway… so go and watch, and use the comments to document the atrocities, as they say.
Related posts:
- Baucus, Reid, Obama Promote Backroom “Bipartisanship” over Democratic Debate
- A Public Option in the Democratic Platform?
- Semi-liveblog Of The Debate To Allow Debate To Begin In The Senate
- Does Lanny Breuer Have a Conflict in the Cheney Interview FOIA Case?
- In Exclusive Interview, Matthew Hoh Says Escalation in Afghanistan a “Terrible Way to Prove a Point”





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Swopa!
Only two on the stage… 8-(
The GOP has been running against Hillary for the last two years. They desperately want her to be the nominee, which is a big reason I won’t vote for her. They wouldn’t know what to do if Obama won the nomination.
No sniping!!! Go after the Bush Administration and the Republicans!!! Turn every question back onto Bush’s war, Bush’s power grab, Katrina…dayem…go for it…Knock the Puke’s blocks off….No infighting!!!!
Swopahhhhhhhhhh.
I just might get to see some of this if I haul ass to get home.
Practical question- what channel is this on? I need that info so that I can find site and watch online. No TV. Thanks in advance, all.
Oh boy, this should be fun.
CNN, VG!
CNN
Aww, LS, ya know that won’t happen if Wolfie is moderating, he just loves a brawl and himself…
Who’s moderating? The usual suspects?
Michelle Obama was on our campus today to speak…engaging, strong, on- point, inspiring. A delight to listen to her message.
Talk about the polar bears dying!!! Talk about Global Warming!!!
Get the Repubs!!!!
Really?
You think Karl Rove won’t have any idea how to get the wingnut base to fear and loathe a black man running for president?
http://www.cnn.com/video/live/…..am=stream1
Here ya go, VG
No prisoners. This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin around.
I know, but if they were smart they would keep turning it around….turn it around….Make the Repubs seem accountable, because they are!!!
I think John Edwards should drink a shot each time H or O mention poverty this evening. *g*
Fork Wolf Blitzer anyway!!!
Ding!! That’s funny!!
Hi Valley Girl…
This is one of the most anticipated primary debates I can remember in a long time. Clash of the Titans.
Go after the Neocons!!!
CNN Valley Girl …
and MSNBC will have post debate coverage with KO and maybe someone we know (think C&L)
OT..Speaking of bears dying..this is sickening:
kos
Anderson Cooper was good.
Yee Haw!! They were paying a grand to get in late today!
Pygmies? I don’t like either of them.
Let’s hope for a good debate. It would be nice to have a pleasant contrast to yesterday’s freak show -though I have to admit I got a weak stomach and could not watch all of the GOP thingee.
The travelling “cess pool” is here, cool.
Holy signs in the audience – it looks more like a rally than a debate
Rachel said she’ll be parsing it with Pat Buchanon too, on MSNBC!
Brown suit, Blagghh.
thanks! can’t miss the last one
W/ regards to #4, it seems to me it isn’t just the RePukes who are running away from/ignoring the 800 lb. gorilla/disaster that is Bushism. With Dear Leader’s popularity hovering somewhere in the 20s, I’m not surprised the RePukes don’t mention him, but in speeches I’ve heard it’s amazing the Demo’s aren’t dwelling on the car wreck he’s turned this country into.
Of course, some Demo’s still applaud his tired macho posturing for more war (SHillary last wk. at the SOTU speech on the success of the “surge”), stare worshipfully at him at public events (Nancy “Neville” Pelosi & Harry Reid)& laud “bipartisanship”. If Obama’s really the candidate of “change” (which we should all hope for) he needs to disassociate himself from the political elite represented by the likes of the Clintons. So far, I’m not ready to hold my breath.
And KO has a FISA Special Comment tonight. Decisions, decisions..
Start hauling Busted!
Happy, happy! Bad color, Hill. She;s afraid to look too feminine sometimes.
How amazing to see a woman and an African American as the two remaining candidates!
I like some of the comments about going after the GOP and the neocons. HRC and Obama can compete to show their comparative moxies for the general election by attacking the bad guys instead of bickering with each other.
Going to be a new “Special Comment” tonight on Countdown. Keith’s pissed again, this time about FISA, I believe. Must see TV!
Jinks, eCHAN. I want to see her wear a beautiful watermelon color sometime.
I hate the brown suit
Substantive issues? We’ll see…
Vote on questions at Politico for those without cable.
No rules? Did Cheney plan this?
Two mantras you won’t hear tonight but heard last night:
“I’m more Ronald Raegan than you. I drink Raegan water, eat Raegan food, and have Raegan tatoos on every part of my anatomy.”
“I can stay in Iraq longer than you can–kill more and paralyze Americans and Iraqis and hemorrhage more billions of taxpayer money and resources.”
There’s always that.
Maybe some day in the future with the “more & better Ds”, we can get some real condidates for prez.
looks like there will be lots of audience participation.
They both face quite a challenge … with Obama moving up in the polls, Clinton needs to beat him tonight … and with folks criticizing him in the past for not being tough enough to beat republicans, he needs to show some tough without going off message. What a scary moment this must be for both!
I missed it. Did Obama win the coin toss?
I don’t like these American gladiator style arena stage set-ups. Why not regular old lecturns and some curtains. Contestants 1 and 2 would be more likely to act like well-behaved civilized people.
What is it with the grammar school desks they’re putting adults behind?
eCAHN….must be.
We’ll have to watch them closely and fight every day regardless. At this point, I’m interested in trying to figure out who has a better chance to win.
seems like they are standing very close together there… maybe it’ll keep the fisticuffs to a minimum…
Corporate media showing who is in charge??
A truce has been called…hooray.
Who’s moderating tonight. I’m not watching the debate, just want to know who’ll be doing the smearing .
Okay, middle aged women out there, how many of you think how do I get whoever does Hillary’s makeup to do mine? She looks good. Maybe a little wrinkly, but I’ll take it. And I’m watching on HD.
Unite against the Administration!!!
Obama says that he was friends with Hillary Clinton before the campaign, and will be her friend afterward. No word about whether he’s her friend right now, though. LOL.
Wolf Blitzer.
Opening statements of friendship and unity. A pretty good start to slap down the MSM petty issues.
I was about to type that exact same thing. Either it will be civil, or they’ll slap each other. :)
Blitzer is moderating and a couple other people I don’t know… opening statements right now…
Wolf Blitzer is moderating.
i dont need to watch – my mind is made up …… but i’ll follow along in the comments ;o}
Thanks all for CNN internet info. Got it on now.
But, trying to get it tweaked my memory about the problem I had last time. Had to open in IE browser. Couldn’t get it via FF, my browser of choice.
JUst a head’s up.
HRC’s starting with the “day one” thingy….Obama’s intro was better than that.
Hillary said poverty first.
If you’re a Lost fan, don’t forget to DVR two hours of Lost.
Tie on opening statements . Both great.
The worst shit is when they do both.
All snark aside, the next pres has a huge mess to clean up. We’ll be in such bad shape that the job will be enormous…and there will be no money.
The repubs have robbed every dime that could get their hands on.
I liked Obama beginning with praise for John and Elizabeth – gracious and well said.
I’m watching on FF — had to download a plugin first, but it’s working fine for me.
YMMV
Thanks folks, hope it will be a good, factual debate.
Did she call him pale?
I hope Obama mentions that he’s for drivers licenses and she’s not.
“not much difference between you 2, what is the most distinctive policy difference”…
Hillary immediately goes to the difference between them and R’s, then to universal health care… mentions Edwards plan and hers are very similar.
Interesting…HRC is dressed in earthtones with turquoise jewelry…
Hillary knows the difference between “among” and “between”! Copyeditors everywhere rejoice!
I’m glad he did. I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.
She’s 3 years younger than me & looks 10 years younger. Don’t like the brown suit but the turqoise jewelry is a great touch.
The debate audience last night was white, white and more white. Tonight’s audience looks like America.
HRC – I’m a hawk on national security.
That’s what the Thugs are counting on..one term Dem.
I hope you are a woman.
same question to Obama… Obama goes first to health insurance (not his strong suit, imo)
Obama – health insurance…children…
John Amato of C&L & Josh Marshal of TPM will be on with the other “usual suspects” on the after analysis of the debate, per Keith.
LOL
The exit polls in Florida and other states who have voted already showed the same thing with regard to the voters in the respective parties.
Surprise, surprise!
I expect them both to court the Hispanic vote tonight, just didn’t expect the visual.
.
applause for “no mandate on health insurance”
Insurance doesn’t cut it, Barak! We need more doctors and universal coverage…
That is so cool! KO puts so many of the cool people on his show!
On MSNBC? Or a blog?
the audience is invitation only… I think the LA Times was in charge of the tickets… big mucky mucks was what I heard…
Isn’t KO supposed to do a special comment on FISA tonight, also?
WTF?
Obama – economy Bush’s fault..Heh.
on MSNBC after the debate
That was my point.
Tijuana tuck and roll?
The Ds look like America. I think that point won’t be lost on the voters, and hope that R racism, sexism attacks will backfire.
At $1k per ticket.
so far, Obama is not stuttering…
It’s LA, they don’t know wtf they are cheering.
Obama, no lobbyist money, and against the war in Iraq at the beginning. Two strong positions.
Hill drinks water when she’s pissed.
Obama – NIE, Iran…offer them carrots and sticks…meet with them.
wow! they are ALL sitting at tiny little desks!
I wonder where the ticket money goes?
Take profit out of health care…. Corporations have no business in the health care arena
How did someone from the Politico make it in there? Blah.
Alrighty! It’s a party!
Women get held to a higher standard in every way, so whatever it takes. *g*
She reaches for her ear too, I’ve noticed…especially when she thinks she doesn’t “get over”…
you just said a mouthful…. and the repugs KNOW they’ve fucked up – and really hope the dems win…
Great post, Swopa. It’s all about framing the debate. ;-)
I like the Brown suit and the Turquoise jewellery … and I’m not a woman … *g*
*Ouch* the CNN female moderator is wearing Brown too, what are Wolf and the other guy wearing ?
I noticed on Timmy’s driver’s licence question a bit of ambivalance, calculation, and hesitation from Senator Clinton.
DHS has a national ID system mandated for states by 2011 or so (without funding of course) that would probably make the driver’s license question moot depending on the federalism litigation that will follow as states challenge the no funding and other logistic problems.
Two real immigraiton problems are seldom mentioned by these two lawyers–1) incredibly ridiculous length of time years to get citizenship
2) INS courts stacked with “judges” appointed by Monica Goodling who have no immigration experience.
Did you catch Teddy Kennedy’s jumping on Mukasey yesterday over the backlog of hundreds of thousands of finished immigration applications–they’re done with the hoops Jane, and it’s implications that the 18-24 month that now exists by this INS and this administration’s failure to expedite them by November will result in the loss of hundreds of thousands of predominantly Democratic voters.
This is a problem that needs to be focused on quickly so these people can vote, besides the other obvious benefits of citizenship.
Hmmm…if you don’t offer health care to the parents…but only the children…you’ll end up with orphans….(just my take)
Obama resisting getting defensive on his health care coverage…
congratulating Ahnold on his health care attemtps (it was a very sucky plan)
I find his minor stuttering endearing…as though he is really thinking about the words coming out of his mouth.
the increase to age 25 is big in this house!
The suit looks much nicer in this lighting than when she first came out. Has a burgandy tone.
Kinda like seein’ Colin Powell and Condi Rice in the Cabinet, eh?
That’s why she always wears pant suits! /s
Congressional health care for everyone!
It is an intentional part of his delivery …
Hillary making a stand on why mandatory is necessary….
On health care, Hillary loses in my book…
This health insurance argument is stupid. Just insure everybody period, like the rest of the civilized world. Damn, you’d see less foreclosures due to health debt.
Hillary said single payer…she’s on top on health care.
Insure everybody.
Hi Biodun!
“if you don’t achieve universal health car you will be nibbled to death”… Hillary on why you have to shoot for coverage for all…
John Edwards has been mentioned more in about 5 minutes then he ever was in any other of the debates
After Preznit Put Food on Their Children, I’m all about intentional speaking.
I’ve been in situations where I sure could not have afforded health insurance when depending on tax subsidies … the mandate piece makes me nervous (or is maybe a sign of my bad finances at time in the past?)
Wolf is in funereal black.
I’ve just tuned in … Brown is earthy, comforting … to smooth over her ‘rough edges’ … along with the Turquoise jewellery, it gives her a younger look … I’ve really enjoyed how she’s made her wardrobe beat up the “Power Suits” of her adversaries.
Single (non corporate) payer is best in my mind.
This “you have to bite this bullet” is Hillary prepping for the “straight talk” criticism.
Loved the “been there, done that” on the anti-health care buzzsaw.
We have been denying it to both for many years–and they end up in teaching hospitals if they get there at all with far advanced diseases in every category of every medicine textbook.
say wha?
Hi back!
Don’t insure people to save money, insure people to save lives.
Obama’s health plan doesn’t do it for me…
dammit, Obama! I have health insurance and it is ridicuously expensive because within that premium is about a 40% markup to pay for the uninsured…
I don’t like Hilary’s health plan. Mandated? And I didn’t hear anyone say that part of their plan is that the effing ins. companies have to actually pay the bills.
The public isn’t ready for it..maybe the recession will change that..right now if I say universal care the comeback is Socialized medicine..the thugs have done a good job of brain washing.
Crowd applauds when Hillary sez “single payer” and then she says it can’t be done but not why.
You hit in right on the head of the nail Ls… Again I say take the profit out of health care… No one should make a profit in caring for the sick. Decent pay yes! But corporations need to be excluded from the health care system!
Obama just gave C-SPAN a shout-out & got some applause!!! Some in the audience actually knew what he was talking about.
True, and allow Medicare and Medicaid to negotiate drug prices, the single largest corporate rip-off to date…
BTW, Wolffy is an idiot… He just parrots others words…
is that her tell?
She has said single payer more than once …
Meathead looks on thoughtfully….
That comeback is just stupid. Tell them to go watch Sicko!!
Be a real leader and say you’ll lead the way to single-payer – don’t dismiss it as unobtainable
Looks like two of the unions that had endorsed Edwards are going to back Obama now
I loved his idea of having the discussions on CSPAN, though.
Hillary, “give medicare the opportunity to negotiate prices”…
that’s a biggie.
This is not only booshit it’s boring boooshit.
I like this format.
why does she keep clenching her hands together?
Which ones ?
These are nurses and other health care professionals..The brain washing has been very effective
Hillary pays lip service to CHIPs. But she threw Marian Wright Edelman, the esteemed head of the Childrens Defense Fund and a longterm friend, under the bus, by metonymy, during the first term of the Big Dawg…
So far they are really doing a good job of sticking to the issues. I haven’t cringed once.
Money, money, money….no problem bombing Iraq into oblivion with endless amounts of money….just insure the people first in your own country…
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
It is so bass ackwards.
She couldn’t find McCain’s pen.
“focus group study” movement …
Why not have gov’t give med scholarships in exchange for first 5-10 years of practice committed to low income/uninsured?
KO is more fun to watch!
I know, but it’s still stupid, and they should watch Sicko. ;)
question, “tax and spend Democrats, how will you counter?”
Obama, “R’s – national debt!”
good fiscal responsibility jab at the repugs by Obama
Barack sez the GOPs aren’t gonna be able to argue fiscal responsibility.
That’s a very understandable, frequent, legitimate and compelling argument–but…
the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are a very big component of your cost–and the drug companies are making incredible profits over and above their R&D and operating costs–they certainly have a right to make profits but they’re over the line when we have such a large population of people who have 3 very common diseases who can’t literally by groceries and necessities and their meds at the same time
and believe me–you and I–counties, states, and the federal government are paying for the greatly increased cost in taking care of the complicated advanced stages of diseases–take AODM (diabetes) as opposed to tightly controlling it early on so that peripheral expensive complications don’t get to develop.
I’m taping it.
Seems like it. Let’s watch.
I love that they are both slamming republicans.
Hey Dood, I’d just read that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is retiring!
I loved his idea of having the discussions on CSPAN, though.
I love the fact that he said it while on CNN!
“Straight talk express lost some wheels!” — Obama
Delurking to ask if Hillary ever answered how she would mandate coverage?
Oh goody, here’s Barack’s snarky side … smacking McCain … Hah !
Obama, “somewhere along there the straight talk express lost it wheels”
good shot!
Hi Jane:
We’re spending a second evening together… Who woulda thunk it…*g*
I’m watching him too. Are we unpatriotic? LOL
“The Straight Talk Express lost some wheels” — now THAT’s showing you’re raring to take on John McCain!
Obama “who are the tax cuts for? quoting Buffet”…
The correct answer is “Yes, we have to raise taxes. We’re not going to continue running up the tab on our children.
And anyone who doesn’t want to pay their share can get out.
United Healthcare Workers & Transportation Workers Union
When did he ever work for a living ?!! *g*
Telling people that it’s okay to do drugs is not work, IMHO …
thats who i’m watching…..
George Costanza in the audience!
Universal is going to have to be a bottom up initiative.
I think this will have to be done to get to universal healthcare. May even have to give lump sum payments if doctors have to take a paycut. I think it is good to get people in healthcare who want to care for patients.
Thats a good start! There should also be more preventive medicine practiced as the VA does for those lucky enough to qualify these days.
a LOT OF states do … Nebraska has offered to pay for my daughter’s if she’ll work in rural nebraska for five years. Had a friend get the same offer from Wyoming.
George Kastanas in the house!
Wouldn’t it be great if Buffet endorsed Obama ?
Is there anybody here that is “undecided” at this point?
Hillary talking about how she will pay for the health care – let tax cuts on the wealthy expire…
think he’s supporting hillary
I loved the story about little Cody who stuck his bike inside the door of the Goodwill so it wouldn’t get stolen and how Goodwill sold it for $7 shortly thereafter! OMG Hysterical.
(bike was returned to the boy) ;-)
Paul Volker endorsed Obama … the WSJ is all a tizzy
One of them needs to say we’ve got Robin Hood on our side.
Hillary going all wonky on health care…
I like it when she does that…
They should change the “how to pay for healthcare” to “how they are paying for war”. They are justifying something that doesn’t exist….turn it around to “if you can afford to pay billions per month to kill people”…”maybe you could use that money to pay for peoples’ healthcare problems like having their feet amputated”…afterall, the person whose foot is amputated worked and paid for it in the first place.
What do we get for our money????? Death and destruction in other countries…and death and destruction in our country…like New Orleans…
The argument is so skewed.
I am doing the quick on the gun program… back and forth… I don’t want to miss SPECIAL COMMENTS…. I like to watch as KO gets all worked up… he is really good at it!
Me !
… peanut butter or chocolate … *g*
Wolfie’s worried about his tax increase when Bush’s taxcuts expire.
I don’t see any pygmies tonight.
Yes, since Edwards dropped out…
lol – i let nothing interfere when my KO is on… and special treat tonight…. special comment!!
Gov’t scholarships for med schools seems like a no brainer. The AMA has the number of students allowed in all locked up, crack that nut and you’ll have many more fine doctors. My husband had an extraordinarily complex operation at the University of Chicago – his doctor had to try for THREE years to get into med school before he was finally admitted. He was the best.
Why won’t they just say that anyone who doesn’t want to pay their share can get the hell out?
oh yea
FYI — Rick Noriega is still answering questions on the previous thread.
Wow, why the heck would the WSJ be upset when Obama has gotten so much $$$ from Wall Street already ?
I don’t think she said anything about mandates. Kinda hard to force someone to have insurance. Maybe with single payer, it wouldn’t matter?
That endorsement is not a plus for Obama, IMHO. Volcker who raised interest rates sky high & caused the economy to plunge into recession.
On FISA no less…! 8-)
The candidates are gone but those fucking signs remain behind. Look, Paultards, there’s a sign on the corner of Orange and Magnolia downtown. Start there. If I see it there on Monday, I’m callin’ whomever you call and they fine your guy. On second thought, leave it up. I’ll still call, but the shitheads in this state just voted to cut property taxes. We’re going to need all the money we can get. You guys have so many signs up in Orange County with the money we can collect in fines, they can run the schools for a year. Or finish that damn highway to nowhere. Never mind, Paultards. Leave ‘em up. You can go back to pickin’ your noses now. Just don’t eat it.
They are trying to expand the Medical College of Georgia to the Navy School campus that is closing here in Athens and the Augusta politico’s are going nuts tying to prevent it.
immigration now with unemployment – Obama, “inner city unemployment is not due to illegal immigration – a form of scapegoating”…
That raising-taxes question turned into Barack and Hillary tag-teaming against the Republicans.
I liked that.
Obama sez blaming immigrants for low wages is scapegoating. Crowd goes wild.
Oh yeeeeah! If I’m not mistaken, The Special Comment tonight is about how George Bush goes to bed at night wearing green fuzzy footy pajamas and he and Laura listen to American’s phone calls without a gawddamn warrant!
I can’t wait. ;-)
Go Robin tax the rich more, they need to help their fellow citizen
My 15 year old son is waching the debate with me. (tear in the eye…making me proud)
Thanks Loo Hoo, her question was how to enforce mandates and I guess that’s an answer we’ll have to wait for.
The immigration question posed as a gotcha for Obama but he calls it out as scapegoating … then draws distinction with Repubs.
yes, but it got rid of inflation and has been the root of the good economy we’ve had before Dubya went on his recent pillaging to support war
Don’t scapegoat immigrants–good line from Obama
I still think they would make dynamite running mates…
He said tonight would be a landmark Worst Persons, too! Age has blanked out the name of that so-called journalist with the hair that Christy would just love seeing made WPITW.
Same here. I may still vote for Edwards, but I’m hoping to be persuaded otherwise.
I was thinking about this very topic as I went to pay my car insurance today. Why does the government force me to have insurance in case I get hit by somebody else, and yet can’t do anything about providing insurance for everybody.
I always say the AMA is the strongest union in the country. It really pisses off my doctor friends. But I’m still their favorite liberal!
ditto. i can’t get into cnn live stream, but maybe that’s ok.
You have to have the people to educate them..it isn’t that easy to just increase class size. I would much rather have a nurse practitioner take care of me rather than a poorly trained MD.
Drivers license question from Wolf. Hill ducks.
I know that, but that is not what Volcker is remembered for.
Wow, there’s quite a lag between the webcast and the telecast…
oh yeahhhhhhhhhhh – its too bad no other commenting hosts have been in support of the peoples liberties…. wonder why?
As Atrios says, “the kids are alright”.
Edwards supporter here… leaning towards Clinton, but haven’t decided…
I wonder if one of the worst persons will be Jake Tapper.
So strong they blocked universal health care when it was introduced. It really burns me when I see the AMA commercials on today encouraging us to contact our legislators to push for health care reform.
Wasn’t that the Who?
If he is the nominee, he is gonna make mincemeat of the Repug nominee in the debates !
Not happy with Hillary tacking right on immigration.
But I believe her story about someone saying he couldn’t get a construction job because of “people who are here without documentation.” I just doubt that was the exact word(s) he used…
Scapegoating?
*clutches pearls*
What will Rahm think?
Clinton speaking on comprehensive immigration reform…
IMO.people need to make a choice..symbolic votes don’t cut it with the country going into the shitter.
That’s what I’m saying, Steve, there are very capable, committed people that aren’t getting into med school. I have had first hand experience with them – after they’ve spent years trying to get into med school. How many can’t afford to keep trying for years?
HRC on the undocumented: Come out of the shadows…we will register everyone…then, if you are not a criminal…you can get in line…
Clinton, “we need to solve this problem, not exascerbate it”
Nope, Byron York!
I think Atrios copped it.
My 16-year old son said the exact same thing! LOL!
Bronze-KKKarl Rove; Silver-Donohue (Catholic Spokesperson); Gold-Byron York.
Well deserved!
Wolf is leading the witness …
I’m not thinking it’s all that rightward – leans that way… sounds like she’s at least got a plan…
worst person award goes to Byron York he has offended everyone long list of the offendies
Wolfie tries to start of fight, Obama gives him the finger…
The deadline Chertoff is proposing for Real ID for the states is 2017.
The politicians have made the choice to use Foreign Medical grads. rather than spend the money to expand US Med Schools.
She has to for the general election. She really stuck her neck out on healthcare…
Obama, “people don’t come here to drive – they come here to work”…
good for him!
One of the reasons, and I know this to be true, the medical schools prefer to have foreign medical students enrolled, as opposed to Americans who will have to take loans, because the foreign countries pay for the schooling of the students and they are more likely to get paid in the long run.
That used to be possible: National Health Service Corps (IIRC) were gutted under Reagan.
I’d love to see the program refunded and re-started!
It’s not just time either, the damn application fees are staggering.
ooops, Hill said Homeland, and she knew it as it came out of her mouth
well handled by Obama – refusing to get into the “mudpit” Wolfie wants to dig …
and mentions his active involvement in IL (Obama marched here as well)
Americans can’t get guaranteed loans for med school?
Shit I missed that one damm
Good point. And there’s some risk to taking a less immigrant-friendly stand in California, of all places.
They truly do and if their employer has hired them illegally then he or she should be driving their butts around!
We are a nation of immigrants and to me, this issue appears to be a way for the neocons to express their racism loudly.
Clinton on the thing where if you help someone undocumented, you commit a crime… that freaked us out at school – every single one of us would be a criminal… one thing we don’t do is “check someone’s papers”…
Indeed – skillfully refusing to take the bait.
Hmmmmmmm….”Homeland”…really pushes my buttons.
HRC: “That would have criminalized the good Samaritan and Jesus Christ himself.”
Very nice line, in my professional opinion.
Obama was great in giving WhiteBeard the backhand …
SC time on KO!
SPECIAL COMMENT ON NOW
Obama calling Clinton a flip-flopper on driver’s licenses…
Woohoo!
Wow, Richardson gets a namedrop
That is a new one on me.
If they have to take out loans to pay $40,000 per year (or semester depending on where you get in)….they are not always able to pay it back. That is a fact. I am a witness to that discussion by the administration of one of the leading med schools in the country.
Hillary – explicit no on drivers licenses
Obama – Hillary has appeared political on this but now she has a clear answer and that underscores that this is a difficult issue but I agree with Richardson … this can be tough the question … turns it back on the Republicans
Uh-oh. Hillary’s writing a note to the teacher about Obama attacking her.
*woohoo was for KO’s Special Comment being on. LOL
((((( Fern )))))
Winter storm poised to strike Toronto … 8 to 12 inches of snow expected, ice pellets and some rain mixed in …
They need to add that immigrants coming in need to feel welcome coming into some type of clinic for a medical evaluations. I really worry about communicable diseases.
So far a really good debate … Wolfie trying to make it nasty … but Obama slapped him down on that and so far it’s issues not personalities.
Good time for a commercial break!
me too… public health is long neglected…
i detect the scholarly hand of prof j turley in helping KO come up with this…. just wonderful!!
Actually, they’d both be better off dropping a lot more D names. It’s classy and makes the party look united.
These two candidates are well matched. Both brilliant. Obama’s wittier.
Actually, Dick Cheney let out lots of cats out of the bag yesterday. It was astonishing.
We’re sure getting it here … wind, rain, wild!
Love the clean coal commercials. What’s more clean than coal? I can’t think of anything.
Well that’s just wrong. We need a good financial aid program for med students– there’s a doctor shortage out there.
Both candidates are doing well.
There is no comparison to last night’s embarrassment.
Yikes – sounds ugly.
I wonder if CNN’s rating just went down the tube with Ko on
New debate thread.
I’m watching the debate, not KO, but I just want to say that I’ve seen Turley on at other times, and thought that I detected the fine hand of KO.
*g*
loo, i got coughed on by an migrant ag worker in a gas station in minnesota and wound up being the basis of the serum for the flu shot after I developed antibodies.. i was sick with this horrid influence for about 2 months …i can attest to the reality of that
What would happen if all AT&T & Verizon customers didn’t pay their bill next month? Think they’d get the hint then?
I’ll catch KO at midnight, this debate is interesting … unlike the Larry, Mo, Curly and Schemp show last night …
Ha!
not as long as they can keep bringing foreign med students here…. its difficult for citizens to get med school funding…. my granddaughter is still looking….
LOL
I’m no fan of the AMA (and have never joined) but this is factually incorrect.
As Reagan slashed biomed funding in the 80’s, I happened to be on the student board of the Association of Amercian Medical Colleges.
Everyone in power: med school deans, heads of teaching hospitals, heads of (major) medical specialty societies wanted to increase physician supply by increasing the number of students (in existing schools or – ideally – new schools).
The limiting factor?
Money.
Med Ed is expensive: to generalize, Med Ed requires a fully trianed staff and the time for that staff to spend tteaching and supervising patient care by the trainees (med students, then interns, then residents) as the trainees acquire clinical skills.
Federal funds for Med Ed have – in inflation adjusted dollars – never returned to the levels Reagan cut.
The AMA has nothing to do with this. Indeed, teh AMA reps liasing with the AAMC supported expansion of medical education (more dues paying docs).
The Liasion Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is the joinnt child of the AAMC and the AMA – the LCME looks strictly at whether the educational institution has the resources for teaching.
The idea the AMA somehow controls/restricts med school places is a widely held cultural myth, but factually incorrect.
I know this to be true from years of being in the system. Med schools get paid up front for the very expensive first 4 years of medical education–they don’t run a tab.
At the graduate or PGY level, residents are paid–they don’t pay a fee for their training–but they pay by providing cheap labor with ridiculous hours depending on the residency you choose.
The big influx of foreign trained people in the medical training system are at the after med school residency training level. It’s a multifaceted subject, but there are exponentially more of them in private hospital training settings partly because a high percentage of them don’t get accepted into tertiary medical center residency programs versus American applicants and they provide cheap labor for the private hospitals with minimal university affiliation (not all private hospitals of course are in that category). They provide cheap labor for the tertiary university affiliated hospitals as well, but the quality of education is much higher.
Thanks Keith for Telling Bush just like it is… the TRUTH you wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you on the ass!
reid just announce the unanimous consent agreement for bring FISA bill to a vote, sound like some amendments were withdrawn, and some are going to be subject to a 60 vote threshold and some to simple majority.
complicated agreement and reid spoke quickly. for those who are interested in trying to figure out what’s happening before the legislative calendar is up, i’ll try to post a youtube in a few minutes.
This is also not factually correct. The med school tuitions are paidwhile the med students are in school – by student loans.
Loan repayment by graduating docs affects the lenders – the students were paying tuition every term, so the med schools have all their money by the time the students graduate.
Moreover, the Federal funding base US med schools rely upon means the med schools’ mission is to educate students who will graduate and practice in the US.
they’re being so gracious to each other tonight … it’s like a love fest
Riesz, once a student is accepted to med school, a whole range of loans become available to that student.
The flip side is that students graduate from med school with high levels of debt, and those debts constrain students’ capacity to enter the (relatively) low paid primary care tracks.
John Edwards has been mentioned more in about 5 minutes, LoL!
Holy Crap.
Clinton’s biggest applause line of the night thus far concerned the dynastic question– why should the electorate look forward to a potential 30 years of Bush/Clintons dominance. Clinton responded that it takes another Clinton to clean up after another Bush mess.
Ahem…Does it strike anyone else that she couldn’t have offered up a a more damning critique of the Coporatist Establishment????
Absolutely correct of course.
The number of students in med schools in the U.S. has nothing to do with the AMA. It has, as Kirk has said, to do with their funding. A lot of people misperceive that the AMA is power hungry and all powerful in medicine, and that’s just not the case at all. Sure they lobby like many large organizations who have professional members. The perception of the AMA and what it does by people is far different from reality.
Money from the government for scholarships have become extremely limited over the last 30-40 years.
There are two such programs: The Exceptional Financial Need Scholarship, which requires primary care commitment, and the Financial Assistance for Disadvantaged Health Professions Students Scholarship. In general, scholarships — gift aid — are largely need based only.
The National Health Service Corps (NHSC) Scholarship Program is a program sponsored by the United States Department of Health and Human Services Public Health Service. Recipients are obligated to serve in physician shortage areas as assigned by the NHSC. The minimum service obligation for this program is two years. The NHSC gives preference to persons with primary care specialty goals and students who come from disadvantaged backgrounds (and/or come from primary care deficient areas).
Most of the financial aid money available to medical students comes in the form of loans, e.g. the Federal Stafford Loan for students ($8,000 for two semesters), the Federal Supplemental Loan for students ($10,000), and the Health Education Assistance Loan (HEAL). Other types of loans include MEDLOANS, Health Professions Loans (primary care commitment only), and Loans for Disadvantaged Students.
As to your anecdote, of course it is true that the admissions process, where there are only so many slots available because of funding–not the AMA– rejects people who could become excellent physicians if given the chance. There are only a very limited number of slots for applicants due purely to funding.
Actually the AMA wants to train as many physicians to stay in the US and practice as possible. There is very very critical shortage of MDs in rural counties in every state in the U.S.
We are also getting into a situation where the transfer time for seriously ill patients or trauma patients to the appropriate tertiary hospitals and trauma centers is dangerously high, because of funding and attrition of these centers and people are dying in transit but that’s another discussion.