This exchange between Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann the other night was troubling:
MATTHEWS: I do know this is always talking about 2.0 and financial concerns here at our own network, I noticed that we’re picking up some advertising from the various candidates here on MS. I’ve noticed some of the ads running on our network. And I think the more they go nationwide, the more they are going to look to the politically-conscious networks like this one where people who follow politics watch, especially around shows like yourself’s (ph) and mine.
And I think they are going to be looking to our programs to advertise. I think it is going to be a very lucrative time for some people we work with and work for.
OLBERMANN: Well, that’s good for us. There’s a new story that’s developing.
The real story is actually that campaigns are finding that their money is more effectively spent on field organizing than on television advertising these days. Television pundits have a self-serving addiction to seeing elections through a lens of broadcast advertising, polling and media-friendly news clips, and they mostly don't talk about field because most of those they have punditing don't understand it.
They probably don't know that Barack Obama started out as an organizer, and his victory in South Carolina may have had as much to do with his campaign's superb ground game and GOTV efforts as anything Bill Clinton said. Likewise, Hillary's New Hampshire field organization was by all accounts excellent. But that just does not have the built-in drama of Hillary choking up, and gets discussed on TV almost not at all.
Matthews and others may be flogging TV advertising as the way to go, but let's look at the reality of, say, California. Horse race enthusiasts are excited because the latest Rasmussen poll has Obama pulling within three points of Hillary Clinton in California. Where will the votes of Edwards supporters fall? Very dramatic stuff. Could go down to the wire, right?
Except that half of the Democrats registered to vote in California will do so by absentee ballot, and voting started on January 7. And this, unsurprisingly, has been much of the focus of the...wait for it...highly competitive, extremely organized ground games of the candidates. And since many people already cast their ballots prior to John Edwards dropping out of the race, who his votes would have gone to is a moot point to them.
And though it's still an apples and oranges affair, the most accurate point of comparison for what might happen in California is what happened with absentee ballots in the closed primary of a state that talking heads kept telling us was not even worth talking about...Florida.
So how much is last-minute television advertising going to matter in a state like California? Some, but probably a whole lot less than you're going to hear about from the people who stand to benefit from it.
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Mornin!
Morning Busted hows things?
I’m actually in a pretty good mood so far, (it’s my Birthday)(SHHHH!)
happy birthday, busted. Happy unbirthday to everyone else.
[whispers] Happy Birthday Busted!!
Ya Right SHHHH HAPPY B_DAY Busted Hope you have many more…. :>)
Shorter Jane:
“If Edwards endorses Obama, at least in California, it won’t matter so much.”
Tell Hillary that. :o)
Happy bday, busted!
Happy birthday busted. Any many happy returns.
On the subject of TV ads, TPM reporting that Romney’s not buying many in Super Tuesday states & suggests that’s a sign of defeatism.
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/....._state.php
Thanks. I have to crawl under a truck here in a minute.
I don’t want to hijack Janes thread.
Have a good one and GO DEMS!
especially around shows like yourself’s (ph) and mine.
Mathews gets to talking so fast, he makes verbal miscues. He can’t be that stupid.
Break a knuckle on me! heh, have a happy.
Last threads topic:
Howdy Doody just asked Gen James Jones about legal purchases of Afghan poppies. He delects Q by saying poppy program must be comprehensive & that increasing demand thru legal purchases would just serve to increase supply. Missing from the A was any more nuanced buying program involving regulation & supervision. But that wouldn’t be a “market” solution, so I guess it’s off the table.
Great points in this post. Obama seems to be going crazy with online advertising, at least at “mainstream” sites. I swear, for the last week or so, almost every link I click is filled with Obama ads, banners and sidebars at the same time even. Wonder if that’s helping him shatter records for individual donors up to this point.
The Revolution continues to NOT be televised. (ya know, the revolution is sure taking its sweet ‘ol time, isn’t it?)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uTCQSk2l8bc
anecdotal:
in my fam, permanent absentee ballots have already been sent
in. so, right you are, m’dear.
flu season started yesterday here in So Cal… kids dropping like flies at school… should be in full force by next Tuesday… wonder what that effect it will have? Younger people seem to be slammed much harder than us old folks…
HB, Busted!
(had a kid tell me he had a fever of 112 degrees - “Wow!” was all I could say ;-)
HB, BN!
’xactly, Jane. Tweety and Co are all slavering over the prospects of teevee advertising, not because it might enlighten us on those pesky issues, but because it’ll make the bean counters happy. To heck with democracy as long as the VCs [vampire capitalists=drain the economy, adding nada] rule. You don’t think they were hint-hinting to the campaigns, now do you? Sure would hate to think they had caught a bit o’Soprano dip-yer-beak-itis….
Interesting conversation I caught snatches of re FISA and retroactive immunity on Minnesota Public Radio this a.m. Perhaps the MNpups caught this–do these conversations get put up on the MPR website? Familiar ground for we followers of FISA here, but good to hear it’s being discussed more out in the ”Real” World, too.
The exceptionally high turnout for the Democratic primary is a sign of the times. People want to vote this time out, because they have discovered after two disastrous terms of Republican rule, that their vote does matter. The Republicans have ruled for a quarter of a century because they convinced ordinary people that their vote doesn’t count for much. The MSM trivialized the issues by making politicians all pretty much the same, treating Democrats worse because they were vulnerable to the charge of not living up to impossibly high standards that only apply to them.
In low turn-out, low-information elections, advertising campaigns of the kind we have seen since Reagan work pretty well. They use marketing techniques to slice and dice the audience, match the advertising to the target audience, and with the help of some voter suppression in critical districts, hey, presto!, another election come, gone and won.
It is different this time. Obama’s charisma and his evident organizing skills will change the electoral model that has been in place since the rise of teevee. If there is a big turnout, the corporations will have a much harder time of it blackmailing our representatives. The blackmailo operates through the threat of negative advertising. Chafee’s book (as reported) bears this out. In 2003 the Dems were scared shitless of being targets of a dolchstoss campaign. But if we get high and enthusiastic turnout, that threat is greatly reduced.
The upside is that the ‘pundits’ lose a lot of their gatekeeping power. All to the good.
We live in hope.
Wasn’t the point of the post at all. Look at the Florida link a little closer.
The inability of people who have a passionate addiction to seeing their candidate win to the obliteration of all reasonable discussion is without question the most irritating part of this job these days.
“He can’t be that stupid.”
Why, yes. Yes, he can!
*g*
Thanks Jane - almost everyone I know here on the central CA coast voted absentee for John Edwards including this ole brat. My burning question from yesterday was since Edwards characterized his decision as a suspension of his campaign could he re-enter the race?
No one found me to get out my vote, which I sent in for Edwards two days before he dropped (but after he said he was in it for the long haul).
Sigh.
But back to the point, it seems that just like the military too often prepares to fight yesterday’s wars, the MSM are covering yesterday’s elections…
The bulk of the ad buys, especially on the Democratic side, are likely to be targetted toward specific local markets. A broadside nationwide shot on something like MSNBC isn’t going to do much.
When so many delegates are awarded on the Congressional District level, it makes sense to look at the “bang for the buck” — and some CDs with no major media markets will look mighty inviting. Ads are cheaper, and their delegates get just as much a say those elected in big $$ media markets.
There’s only so many campaign dollars to go around, and attempting nationwide ads make little sense right now. GOTV and targeted local ads: coming soon to the smart campaign near you.
One of these days, someone will spell it out to Tweety. Not that he’ll listen, mind you, but sooner or later someone at MSNBC will get fed up with his blathering and at least make the effort to deal with it.
Wanna bet?
My bold
Far be it from me to deride the effectiveness of advertising. My concern here is the larger issue that the wall is melting at an alarming rate between the business and editorial side. Matthews should limit his discussion to a critique of political advertising content. They way he talks about it here seems to violate basic journalism ethics in that he’s dog whistling that ad buys at MS might get candidates earned media. And that’s 8 kinds of fucked up.
Obama raised 32 million in one month. This is an interesting new website: www.youbama.com
The goal of YouBama is to democratize the election campaign process. All content is generated by citizens and voted on by citizens.
Think about it as the unofficial presidential campaign for Barack Obama. Voters can say what they want, how they want. Then they vote on the videos so the best ones rise to the top.
This site was created by two Stanford University students. We have no connection to the official Obama campaign. We have no sponsors or group affiliations. The site was built using open source software.
The ground game is always going to count for more, it brings the what little “personal” touch a candidate can extend to their campaign to their constituents. HRC has had the money to organize for a long period of time, and put together an impressive field operation and in any other year that might be enough. I am getting this impression that people are caught up in this “Transcendant Obamism” and that emotion coupled with an impressive ground operation might carry him to both the nomination and the White House.
John Edwards departure from the race makes me sad, but at least it does not leave Hillary as the fait accompli of the Democratic Party.
When I walk into my local polling place next week, I will vote for Edwards, because I can.
Who I’ll vote for in November will be whoever gets nominated … although I’ll probably be holding my nose.
Twenty-six percent in Florida voted early or by absentee ballot, and Hillary got 50% of those votes while Barack got only 31%. So, she won a 13% margin right there, right?
Tweety is exhibiting signs of bone ignorance and logic resistance. If the world doesn’t fit his paradigm, somethings wrong with the world.
By distributing delegates to the Congressional delegate level, the Democrats have boosted the importance of the ground game, diminished the value of massive ad buys, and made projections much more nuanced than state polls. I think that the almost invisible ground game of single individuals reaching out to other single individuals is growing.
me, too
BUSH
(to self)
Yeah, right. Liar.
(yells)
Hey,Laura! Here’s a guy sayin’ Howdy Doody talked to some General on somethin’. But Howdy Doody’s just a fuckin’ puppet. Right?
LAURA
George…let’s just not talk right now, ok?
[Mod Note: html fix]
For eCAHNomics from previous thread.
The book you are looking for is John Darwin, After Tamerlane. The Global History of Empire since 1405. It is about the geopolitical history of Central Asia. For some reason, Oxford Press published it in the UK last year, but delayed until this month bringing it out in the US. Amazon is shipping it February 5.
The Clintons now contend that they can control each other. So HRC makes the statement last night that she can control her husband. Who is this designed to play to?
Yep, I actually do think it had Sopranos overtones, intentional or not.
The crossover between editorial and advertising in that instance seemed a bit…dare I say…egregious?
Is it a measure of the relevance of the online world that when I accessed Salon earlier today, up popped a full-screen, standalone ad for Hillary? Leave no venue untapped.
BBC has teh Governator striking again
what have you when a zero ups a hasbeen?
Thanks very much.
This needs to be thrown in the face of the Pukes every time they claim they are so stellar on National Security:
“The commission’s 400-page report concludes that the nation “does not have sufficient trained, ready forces available” to respond to a chemical, biological or nuclear weapons incident, “an appalling gap that places the nation and its citizens at greater risk.”
“Right now we don’t have the forces we need, we don’t have them trained, we don’t have the equipment,” commission Chairman Arnold Punaro said in an interview with The Associated Press. “Even though there is a lot going on in this area, we need to do a lot more. … There’s a lot of things in the pipeline, but in the world we live in — you’re either ready or you’re not.”
http://www.rawstory.com/news/m.....12008.html
I’m getting the best flyers here (Fargo ND) for Obama. Every few days a full color flyer with bullet points. Plus, they call. Nothing from any other candidates. I’m impressed with the quality.
and the phone calls, don’t forget the nightly phone calls
Realizing I’d be in New York on 2/5, I sent away for a California absentee ballot — and voted for Edwards.
My reaction yesterday was “looks like I wasted my vote.” But the more I think about it, the better I feel about voting for the now non-candidate. The choice that remains, between two candidates who are fighting to see who can be the most (right-of-)center, leaves me cold.
Of course, I’ll vote for whichever Dem it is this fall, and I’ll be happy to support our first black or woman prez. But once again (and I’ve been voting for DECADES now), by the time the actual voting comes around, it looks like a choice between the two candidates who the media could have picked for me to begin with.
Nothing’s going to change until we take the money (and, therefore, the media influence) out of campaigns. Which means, I’m afraid, that nothing’s going to change.
Bottom line: glad I voted for Edwards, the only (kinda) progressive choice at the time. Wish I’d been able to vote for Gore.
Except California is anticipating a much higher percentage of absentee voters (50% to Florida’s 26% est.). The state is definitely trending toward Obama so happening later in the calendar as it does that will benefit him, but some simple math shows that the hill he has to climb is much higher than the 3% that all the talking heads are heated up about.
But ding ding ding, you get the prize.
for what it is worth and a typical Demo household:
three AB voters here.
two voted already–one for OB one for EDW
third has his ballot and was going to vote EDW and now??????
leaning OB.
but waiting.
Good morning Jane!
politically-conscious networks like this one
Oh, yes.
General Electric is certainly politically conscious.
As long as it contributes to Immelt’s bottom line.
Like a permanent US military presence in the Middle East to protect their gas turbine fleet.
Here’s my ad idea. A George Bush memory scrap book, being opened page by page on camera, to reveal photos of:
Mission accomplished: Junior on the ship deck; bodies in Afghanistan on the facing page
Recreation: Junior on his bicycle; someone being waterboarded on the facing page
Family fun: Junior boating with Poppy; an Iraqi embracing a dead loved one on facing page
Health care: Junior doing thumbs up after physical; an African child dying from AIDS on facing page
Etc., etc., etc.
This looks like a good place to say that I’ve noticed that KO says “egregious” alot. I wonder…
Woo hoo!
I feel like I just rubbed the lamp and the genie came floating out.
is this concept historically accurate–
Hilary can control Bill?
my sides hurt.
Tweety is going to implode of this Bill Clinton story that is coming out in the NYT right before Super Tuesday…just watch:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....739/446735
Love it.
I’ll bet somebody will have a version of your idea up on YouTube within hours, if not seconds.
The dirty side of politics is the email underground that smears and lies about candidates. I don’t care which party it is, I expect all reasonable people to be outraged by the thousands of messages spread across this country.
Several times I’ve spoken of my southern relatives and their dark-age attitudes. I received this email this morning that went out to dozens of people who are told to pass it on to dozens more. Well, folks, so I shall. Perhaps this isn’t what they had in mind.
TV pundits come off like descent people next to this. It is spreading like wildfire. Email can be the dark hidden underworld for those not willing to stand in the light and speak these words. You will probably be outraged but I say use this energy to stop it. Here it is on Barak Obama:
Noticed this morning that the New York Post is endorsing Obama on the Democratic side. Trying to parse that, given that Hillary’s had a relatively good relationship with Rupert Murdoch. Could be some kind of double head-fake, designed to support Hillary through an assumption that Dem voters will want to do the opposite of what the Post tells them.
Or a purely mercenary move, designed to provoke a bigger fight between Clinton and Obama to sell more copies of the execrable rag.
Or they could have actually drunk the Kool Aid that Hillary has a better chance of winning, and so they’re pushing a Dem they think has a better chance of losing in the general election.
Or they’re on Obama’s cred as a Lieberman suck-up and neocon-enabler (in my book, it’s a toss-up between him and Hillary in that regard).
Or none of the above.
This will be the hook that Tweetymedia uses to discredit Obama’s tally whatever it is, I fear. Pre-set the spin so they can reel it in…and enable Clinton’s claiming “wins” like she did in Florida. False framing, media specialty.
Will be interesting to see whether they give any attention to Feb 5 results in places like Red State ND.
OT BBC has a report that you will probably not see there on your media.
No, it’s back to the future. Another “believable” tale from the Clintons, not a “fairy tale”, be assured of that. The Clintons only attempt to write plausible fiction.
“Or they’re on” should read, “Or they’re sold on….”
This type of hate rhetoric is so incredibly dangerous, because of the violence it can incite…maybe that is the purpose…
Although you can probably substitute pictures of US children without healthcare instead of the African child and get more recognition of the fact.
Sad but true reflection of our culture.
Looks like all the time Clinton spent learning from George H.W. Bush has paid off.
I watch Chris Matthews in my office. It comes on in the early afternoon when I’m losing momentum, and I have to admit (cringe) that I do usually enjoy his weird stream-of-consciousness commentary. I’ve noticed that almost all the ads during his show are for NutriSystems (”It works SO GOOD!” Oy, the grammar!)and for Weight Watchers. What’s that all about?
What’s that all about?
The pale and pudgy demographic.
Hiya Jane…
Late coming to the thread… Tweety babbling and salivating. Sometimes he almost ventilates…
LOL! That’s me!
Thanks, Arnie. Not unreminiscent of the obsession in the US with how bad our Iraq war has harmed us.
LS - I fear. I truly fear for just the reason you cited. We go after child porn but this type of rhetoric with the purpose of inciting violence is freedom of speech.
LeftDCin72@34:
Did she really say THAT!??? That is too good. :o)
“Hey, y’all! I got me this here Rottweiller, that thinks that the democratic party nomination belongs to us by some kind of process of inheritance. (Just like I used to…:o) )
But, not to worry! After South Cackalack, I’ve got him on a real stout leash for next Tuesday. See y’all then! (Sit, Bill! Sit, dammit!) :o)
Driving through SW Virgina a few ago, late night wingnut radio was all Obama, with only a few jabs at Hillary “Rotten” Clinton. The Obama meme was that “Barak Muhammad Husein Obama” would open all US boarders to an invasion of “illegals” from the “Third World”. With either Hillary or Obama as the nominee, we are in for a rough ride. If Edwards had been the nominee, he would have won the election with very little drama.
Trying to write The Making Of The President 2008 as a live blog has to
be more difficult than it was for Teddy White back when… those books
are a goldmine of political lore, you just had to wait until it was over
to get the debrief. Thanks for the coverage.
Please adjust my perception here of the delegate awarding process in Cali;
Each County(?),gives 100% of it’s delegates to the winner of that county?
Or is it something else?
No such thing as winning with very little drama. They tried sleaze against Edwards, too.
Must stay vigilant and counter the lies, and most of all GOTV.
It is all very, very troubling…
I found this interesting comment from a poster on John Edwards’ site:
“His announcement changes nothing. If he gets more than 15% of the vote in our state, he will gain the delegates from that, regardless. So I urge everyone who wants to vote Edwards to do so. Keep their feet to the fire. It will not be a wasted vote. It will give him more delegates. Worry about the general election later.”
A good idea?
District, not county, sorry
Good idea. His campaign is “suspended” not ended. An awful lot can happen regarding the other Dem candidates between now and the convention.
I wholeheartedly concur.
The Democratic Party’s traditional, inclusionist zeal has done them in this time.
As proven in 00 and 04, 50% of this electorate is brain damaged.
There will be a Republican elected President in November.
I think so
Prairie@43; there are no more wins that she can claim as she did in Florida, when she so frantically went back on her word and went down to hustle delegates which, at least for now, do not exist, while Edwards and Obama honored their pledges not to campaign there.
Who watches commercials anymore?? Ever since I got TiVo, not me. Even if I am watching a show LIVE (such as Olbermann), I start watching 15 minutes after it starts, just so I can Fast Forward through the commercials.
(And I hear TiVo used to allow you to delete commercials, but BigBusiness filed a lawsuit and stopped that.) Doesn’t matter — deleted or Fast Forwarded through, *I* don’t have to see ‘em.
I’m waiting to see what shakes out on Tuesday. WI doesn’t have their primary until the 19th. My vote is either for Edwards or Obama. If Barack has the state tied up, John gets my vote…
Yeah, John Edwards would have been giving a nice easy and clean trip to the Whitehouse.
The only thing the GOP has left of their withering ideology is a bottomless pit of bile for anyone who doesn’t fit into their myopic world view.
This is gonna be disgusting.
-G
Given the way, as so recently and clearly demonstrated, unexpected events and rapidly changing perceptions can affect a campaign, allowing, and even encouraging, voting 30 days before an election is, well, stupid.
Thanks to both you and Knut, feeding my intense curiosity is a full time job.
Just an aside; wouldn’t it be refreshing if people in government actually became students of history.
ANYONE who would vote that early is a moron.
Can you imagine a candidate wasting their time trying to get votes from a political network, or show? The logic behind this is 3 year old “I wanna” speak. The people that watch the type of show he is referring to aren’t swayed by anything a commercial is going to say?
Pretty sad when they have to put tweety out to try to draw revenue. They must really be scraping to pay tucky huck’s celery. Soon enough, look for porn ads on NBC (If you are inclined to watch mindless drivel from people paid to “have something to say” every day) You will have to tell me about it though, I can’t compromise my principles to watch that crap.
If Edwards had been the nominee, it would have been wall-to-wall trial lawyer attacks.
Face it — no matter who the Dems nominate, the GOP is going to go over-the-top crazy trying to knock them down. Different attacks for different candidates, but the same venom and lies coming from the Rove/Atwater wannabes.
But it makes sense, in a way. It sure beats trying to run on the BushCo policies that both Romney and McCain want to embrace: “Fewer jobs and more wars!”
Ahnold: McCain is all about the environment and the economy…
Is he smokin’ crack??
So Schwarzenegger endorsed McCain. Can’t say I’m surprised but it certainly does drive a stake into the notion that the Gubernator is a different kind of Republican.
What else could it be… It would be interesting to see all the headers in the e-mail to figure it’s source and have those who perpetrate such propaganda prosecuted for inciting a riot!!
What a radical idea, to learn from history.
I am very unkind to the people that forward such shit.
-G
Yes, no matter who the Dem candidate is, there will be the attacks — true and false. By this time, every single damn American should know this — but they don’t.
My 82-year-old mother STILL gets all her “news” from the teevee.
I hate to say it, but America will likely never change — or change way too late.
Time line July 2001
A reminder of their negligence.
http://cnparm.home.texas.net/911/Backg/Backg4b.htm
Not to burst any bubbles here, but thinking or hoping that Edwards (the candidate I supported BTW) will somehow get back in the race is like hoping that Gore will. Not gonna happen.
If Edwards wanted to be the king-or queen-maker he would do better to announce his support of one of the remaining two - hopefully Obama- and directly affect the 2/5 voting than playing coy until the convention.
All I have to say is thank goodness cable networks like MSNBC are objective in their political reporting. Otherwise their salivating at the prospect at easy revenues from poltical campaign ads might be considered a conflict of interest.
Democratic party rules are proportional distribution of delegates at each level thanks to the McGovern commission in the early 70s.
With all due respect I have to disagree. There are people who have their lives disrupted for a variety of reasons—including serving overseas in the military—who would vote early. And I don’t think the namecalling is helpful.
An idea that needs to be repeated. *g*
I was a 17 year old volunteer for that one.
A decorated WWII flyer was painted as a “panzy poet socialist”.
No, America will never change.
I always send them links to the appropriate web site debunking the e-mail and tell them that they are quite gullible if they believe that crap! Oh and I make sure to do a reply all so everyone gets a copy … of course some use the bcc function… dam I hate that function sometimes!
Governator has effectively just punched himself in the face, but since he’s a robot it didn’t hurt.
Ditto egregious good come back.. so long as they vote I would support them!
Kerry just very effectively made the case against McCain.
Interesting, I just was forced to send a nastygram to a person who felt obligated to forward me a very similar piece of garbage. Why do folks feel the need to propagate such tripe by forwarding it to everyone they know?