Over at DailyKos, Markos makes the observation that in this election "too many unmerited claims of racial insensitivity and sexism have been thrown around carelessly." I’ll agree with that — but I think it’s an observation that deserves some further refinement.
Lately I’ve been told by no small number of men that if I hear something as sexist I’m being "oversensitive" or just plain wrong. When that happens my back goes straight up and all I hear is the patronizing tone of someone who thinks their life experience is superior to mine and that they are therefore entitled to tell me what I hear and when I hear it. Suddenly the discussion gets dragged onto the carpet of who’s "right" and who’s "wrong" and many distinctions that would allow us to have a reasonable conversation about the subject get abandoned.
No wonder people are desperate for liberation from the problems of sexism and racism and are to willing to sweep them under the carpet and pretend they don’t exist any more.
But they do. And Pam Spaulding, writing about race politics, gets to the heart of it:
The subject is too deeply embedded in the American psyche to will it away – remember, Obama doesn’t have to "make a big deal of his blackness." He’s black, but he’s not carrying the perceived "chip on his shoulder" that Jackson or Sharpton have by default. That’s what scares white folks, because J&S have traded on race merchantry in the past – where all forms of racism – benign, ignorant, overt and violent, are seemingly the same. This only drives further discussion into the closet.
What I am saying is that the underlying reason for promoting "post-racial" (note you don’t see many blacks tossing that around) is more about wanting it to be true so badly so that race doesn’t have to be dealt with. It cuts both ways.
Note you will see folks on the right (and the Clinton camp) complaining that they "cannot talk about race" in regards to Obama. No, they feel they cannot successfully use the familiar political dog-whistles that evoke fear without getting called on it.
It all goes back to the fear of being labeled "racist." It’s almost as if we need to come up with another term that doesn’t conjure up visions of Klan Night Riders, lest whites recoil at the mere thought that they can hold ingrained biases through no fault of their own by growing up in this culture.
I’m pretty sure implicit bias is what drives much of The Bradley Effect, because many who change their minds and vote for the non-minority candidate don’t see themselves as racist; they can rationalize their decisions in ways that avoid ownership of that factor.
If this primary has taught us nothing else, it is that people hear things subjectively and view them through a filter of their own life experience. When Michael Eric Dyson said Hillary Clinton was using racist code when she said that she was the best person for the presidency, I was left scratching my head and thinking, "well, that’s what every politician says in every race. How is she supposed to run?" And at the same time, it didn’t invalidate that this is what Dyson and others are hearing — an echo of things they’ve heard their entire lives when people are attempting to be dismissive based on race. Hillary Clinton was just running a political campaign like any other political campaign, but it doesn’t erase people’s feelings or experience that they are bringing to the table.
And that’s where Pam’s call for a different way to discuss these things becomes important. Intent does matter — and to deny that, to lump together the person who just doesn’t know how their words are being perceived with the ones who bomb abortion clinics makes the subject explosive and untouchable. People recoil from it, the conversation gets shut down and teaching moments get lost.
There is a lot of sexism in this race, both overt and unconscious, and as someone who writes about gender a lot it’s been extraordinarily difficult to address it without feeling like you’re just going to make the problem worse. Because the time is coming when we’re going to have to reconcile behind one candidate, and the ability to do that to insure that we don’t wind up with another Alito on the bench is going to become paramount. We don’t live in a time that allows the luxury of going Naderite. And I’m always conscious these days that making the race/gender divide more toxic and polarized is going to leave me poorly equipped to be a voice for that reconciliation, and yet to not address the subjects of sexism and racism when they’re such huge motivational factors in this race makes me feel like I’m abandoning an opportunity to drag these subjects out for some much needed daylight.
I think the first necessary act in having a more healthy conversation is to acknowledge that you don’t always know what someone else is hearing when something is said. When people say "out with the old, in with the new" about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, what I hear is that there is no room for a middle aged woman in a position of political leadership. It takes a long time for a woman to accrue political clout in our society sufficient to rise to the top, as it does in business and many other fields, especially when she’s taken the time to have kids. She’s not allowed to be the young wunderkind that a man is. So she can’t be on top when she’s young, and by the time she’s in a position to make the argument that she deserves to lead everyone is saying "out with the old." In other words, she’s allowed to be in a position of power…never.
Which doesn’t mean that this is what people are intending to say when they say it, and the tendency to throw labels around and attribute motivation and grand conspiracy probably needs a lot more evidence than most are asking for. "Out with the old" means, for a lot of people, and end to Clinton politics and the Clinton era. Fair enough. And anyone who wants to pretend they can look into a crystal ball and know what someone is thinking in that case is a bit presumptuous.
But not so long ago, you couldn’t write anything negative about Bill Clinton online because the "Clinton era" was considered the halcyon days, and the "Clintons" only became toxic and archaic once Hillary started running. So the suspicion that many are hiding some old fashioned lizard-brain sexism behind this new found skepticism towards the Clintons remains.
I don’t know how to repair the situation other than to acknowledge that people’s feelings are legitimate with regard to what they hear no matter the intent, and presuming malicious intent is a great way to make an enemy of someone who probably really wants to be an ally.
Pam is right — the need for new language, for a new way of talking about these things is acute.
Related posts:
- Late Night: Birth, Death, Sex & Race
- A Brief History of Communism, from Race Mixing to the Public Option
- Insane Clown Prince of Alien Race of Lizard People Sues Blogger
- CA-10: National Media’s Forgotten Race Proves Victory for Progressives
- Election Night Thread #2: McDonnell Projected VA Winner; NJ Gov. Race Too Close to Call





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Hey Jane!
2?
My heart is broken…
(I know I told Ann in AZ that I was taking myself out of the zed race, but I really didn’t know when this post was coming up.)
Go Biodun!
On this topic. Someone downstairs accused an Obama supporter of being childish because this person admired Obama’s oratorical skills. The comment was not only nasty and stupid, but also greatly lowers the level in which most of us have sought to address campaign issues (and preferences here). Can we try to keep this civil?
It will be civil until someone misinterprets what someone else says. . .which seems to be the point of the thread.
Making political issues of gender and race. I deplore it!!!
HI Jane!
Hey Raven, how’s your Little Bit?
What about class?
The Obama candidacy has a cathartic quality to it. We can now engage constructively on issues of race where we couldn’t before. I don’t believe for one second that the Clintons are racist. Yet I could believe in a heartbeat that they could use race to advance their agenda. There are many on the right to whom I would be less kind. There are people with guns who would threaten Obama and his family and that sickens me. Obama is the Rosetta Stone of race. All that has come before and all that is to come is written on the tablet of his face. The American people are about to face down the 500 year old demon of race in North America. And the people will win. We all shall win.
Obama in 08!!
I’d really like to see the downstairs discussion kept downstairs, if possible.
I love Pam Spaulding. She’s such a voice of reason in heated discussions. I wish I were half as wise as she is.
I’m not done reading the post–I will in a sec, but I want to throw this out there: Yes, we need to develop a new grammar, syntax, vocabulary, lexicon, what have you, for discussing race in the US and the world. The old lingua franca simply ain’t to cut it. Racism in the US is distinct because of its specific history of slavery. And yes, it can’t simply be willed away. We need to calibrate and reconfigurate a new context to engage it.
Fantastic post, Jane — and I concur with Pam’s call for finding a different way to discuss the issues involved so that actual discussion, instead of more toxic polarization, occurs. Finding that path, though, continues to be a difficult search…on far too many levels.
I meant reconfigure…
Everyone has prejudices. Everyone. And some of those prejudices have to do with race and gender.
Ugh, she woke up in the middle of the night Monday just screaming. We took her in and, using the xrays they took to find the bladder stones, they realized she has a lumbar disc issue. So, along with the stones, allergies and cherry eye she has this. I guess it’s why someone dumped her. We have concluded that with us she has a chance and without us she had very little.
thx
Well… if enough people make an issue of ethnicity and sex, perhaps we can succeed in throwing the race to the Republicans.
A well timed and thoughtfully post, thanks!
Let me apologize to the community for losing my temper downstairs. No need to continue it here.
Indeed. This is one that doesn’t get talked about much.
overlaps some with race and gender of course.
I think Americans are uncomfortable with discussion of class because it goes counter to some of the sustaining myths of the nation.
While I appreciate the sentiment and intentions of the post, it strikes me as rather ambitious in a world where the mainstream media is a propaganda organ of the corporations and the White House.
I mean, yeah, sure, try it! Great. But with outright bigots like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh enjoying as much airtime as they do, I don’t expect big results real soon…
I’m not sure I understand the question.
I also sign up for the truce.
This political correctness is outrageous. Everyone knows that in America today the white man is the new 1940’s German Jew.
-The Doughy Pantload
I still think that Edwards dropped out too early. Everyone who was going to vote for him should still vote for him on the Tuesday primaries. My gut feeling has always been that Tuesday would show that each candidate would be closer to a 3-way tie than anything. Even if he didn’t come out on top it would be nice to see the whole democratic process play out at the convention where each state’s announcement was actually more than just ceremonial.
Edwards is still the best nominee.
Oh that’s just terrible, I hope she’s feeling better now that you know and can treat her. B
oy you sure came along just in time for her, she’s lucky to have you two.
aww that’s just a shame.
Do you think it is a bad idea to make and issue out of class?
Trained Monkey Bernanke drops rates, trained monkey’s on Wall St. dance, fling pooh and reach for more bananas.
-G
Suspicion? It’s a fact. The more that I have thought about it, the “Clinton Derangement Syndrome” has always been about Hillary. In the early 80’s she was the lightening rod because she wasn’t acting like a woman should. She was attacked because of her looks, the way she dressed, the fact that she kept her given name (that was a real threat), she worked and was a bad mother..blah..blah..
There are a lot of real reasons to not like Hillary or to not want her to be President…But I think the “tone” of a persons dislikes of Hillary is usually a good indication of the underlying psychology. Misogynists and lizards brains inhabit the spectrum of political thought.
All the more reason to treat the post as sketch pad to constructively deal with divisive issues.
Nice post, Jane. I agree completely. But I am still in shock about Edwards. I saw the three Democrats as potential presidents, not as objects. Now I see a drastically lessened field, because of the popularity contest that is the American presidential election.
Hope this post causes much introspection in its readers.
The fact that these campaigns are causing these discussions is very exciting. America needs this to happen in order to make progress on the racial and gender fronts.
Yea, she was just starting to get really active, which may have made it worse, now it’s a month of restricted activity and anti-inflams. But she remains a sweetheart and the bohdisattva is warming up to her!
Hi Jane, While this is being framed in the media (and elsewhere) as race versus sex/gender, there is also a key factor of religion at play, and in some ways this is also a large elephant in the room, framed in part by the issue of the war, and fears (in some Democratic circles, and certainly Republican ones) that the U.S. will change our current M.E. war policy. I thought the Haaretz editorial recently saying that Obama and Hillary had similar views on the Middle East was an important step in putting some of this to rest http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/p…..mNo=949364
This may go some way toward discrediting those nasty emails circulating about Obama being a Moslem etc which were being circulated to Jewish listserves and others (a tact, some have claimed on the web, may actually have been undertaken at the mehest of one of the Dem candidates now running). Dershowitz has been especially nasty on this, and his support of Hillary is troubling.
Edwards was a voice for my issues…having said that he was not winning by any stretch but as long as he ran I ran with him…I want to hear what his BIG statement will be today. A lot of people will be listening. He did promise to go all the way…but then we did not support him enough. $200 million versus what little he has for adds, phone banks etc. He also did not have troops on the ground (local organization. I could not find a local number to call to be involved. I am not at all surprised he dropped.
He is still a main stream politician that can do a world of good for the forgotten and left behind. It is a solid message that equates well with the values that many earstwhile Christians have abandoned in practice…a helping those less fortunate yoursel. And I might add they are the ones who are losing the great pleasure of loving your neighbor.
As a woman who spent nearly 30 years as a professional on Wall St., it doesn’t seem possible to reconcile with the misogynists.
So, your next move?
And, while we are on class, there is also the issue of age (the youth vote versus elderly vote). To date that has been even more of a factor.
Huh, I can’t hear you! :)
Are you meaning in terms of economic class? Or social class? Or both?
I saw Eric Dyson speak at UNH last night. He is quite the speaker and has quite the strong message.
It should be noted that he supports Sen. Obama and his wife supports Sen. Clinton.
-G
lol
I guess I see them as the same.
I’m retired. Did what I could. Out of it now.
he’s troubling so as it is
As a white male, I have tried to be honest about my feelings about the political contest and my potential hidden biases.
Am I racist? Outwardly no, inwardly occasionally (maybe). Frankly, I am not sure. I would like to see Obama break the glass ceiling.
Am I a misogynist? I have a daughter and I am married. I think men and women are different. I think both men and women should have the same opportunities to do what they want to do, and realize that they may tend to group together (and collectively complain about each others stereotypes.) I would like to see a woman break the glass ceiling. I am not sure I trust Hillary. I would support Hillary over Romney or McCain. The main reason I would want Hillary to win is that I would like my daughter to have tangible evidence that women can succeed.
If Obama wins, will there be another woman in the next 12 years that can garner the win the political version of American Gladiator? If Hillary wins, will there be another African American that can do the same within the next 12 years? This is the fracture line in the democratic party. This is also, I believe, why Edwards never gained any traction as the candidate with the most progressive platform.
Jane, you are absolutely right. The most important thing is that the channels of communication are used appropriately and are not shut down by bickering and backstabbing. Democracy needs dialog to succeed. Fascism says “trust us” and “stay in your place.” We all know where that leads…FISA or not.
Dershowitz jumped the shark on torture.
I have no respect for him.
-G
Obama will have my vote if he is the nominee not because he is black or a man, but because Hillary cannot win convincingly against the GOP. It doesn’t matter against who, but seeing that McCain will likely win the nod, especially so against him.
It was a couple of weeks ago, but I especially enjoyed Susan Faludi’s column “The Correct Hillary Clinton Stereotype”. I think it fits nicely with what is being said here.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..4707.story
Isn’t he some pro-torture neo-con academic? Or am I mixing him up with someone else.
Calling them misogynists doesn’t help anything. One of the key factors in the race issue is that the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action in universities and the work place have been women (not blacks). Think about the changes in 30 years in terms of the numbers of women who have gone to law school, medical school and who have become university professors, to say nothing about changes in ivy league student make up. As a result some of the frustration by white men in terms of opportunities drying up is based on these changes. And, because women now can hold great jobs, it also means there is less societal pressure to keep jobs more generally because in most homes you need two wage earners, and often now at least one has a job even if the other is without. (I have no stats for the last point, but I think it could be made).
This is from a project that I’m writing right now, and I think it’s pertinent to this thread:
The individual, or subject, is always dispersed. Then we have subject-positions that an individual or person occupies, positions that have their own discourses or histories, some of which a person was born into, and others that that person has chosen. These subject-positions are sometimes contradictory and never cohere to form a complete “individual.”
For example, one “person” or “individual” can be fractured by subject-positions of: Ethiopian; Jewish; mother; lesbian; physically handicapped; conservative environmentalist; radical economist; and leftist progressive political blogger or columnist. One person can be all those things…
LOL, Whaaat were you saying?
Well, there is the old, for lack of a better term, genteel poor. I.E., those from supposedly good breeding/families but whose money slipped away over the years. A supposed higher social class but lower economic class.
Racists, feminists and mysogynists share one major characteristic…tunnel vision.
Nuance! Nuance and range of detail is a sign of perfect exposure in photagraphy, but the white hot glare of political theater in this country will make nuanced thinking like this very difficult.
race and gender discussion elides the fact that these are 2 DLC, corporate-owned candidates who will not substantially reverse much, if any, of the grave damage of the last 7 years.
Have you ever seen the picture of the Wal-Mart board with 39 yo Hillary sitting next to Sam and everyone else is an older white male? Didn’t look like the Wal-Mart board was a bunch of laughs for the Hil.
Yup!
When I was in grad school, just 10 years ago, an African-American classmates was constantly raging about America, men, African-American men and all kinds of other issues. I finally said, “If I saw the world like you I’d pick up a gun and start a revolution”. She said, “That’s typical male bullshit”. I said, “What about the Viet Cong women”. She said, “They are not women of color”. We had a serious communication gap.
ps, she graduated before I did, got a faculty position, and ended up on my comittee.
Smart. Good points.
yes, there’s a decided youth support for Obama as evidenced in the exit polling done.
Deval Patrick.
Does that suggest that there are many people for whom sexism is even more deeply ingrained than racism?
Um, well, it calls them what they are. I think truth telling accomplishes something, but perhaps you dont.
The Clintons are sandbagging the sexism issue. And it seems that on this site if you come on strong about not wanting the Clintons to be re-elected, you can be stereotyped as a Clinton hater. So how to deal with the insideous, in my view, Clintons. Novak reported that the Clintons had the goods on Obama, Sheehan then stated that Obama had drug issues, Bill Clinton then says that Obama tells fairy tales, the BET guy then says that Obama has drug issues, Bill Clinton then says Obama is like Jesse Jackson.
And I say the Clintons don’t give a damn about doing the right thing. Never have and never will. What do the Clintons care about? Got a clue? Big house? Big plane? Getting rich?
Obama is no Bush or Dole or Rick Lazio. He is a credible worthwhile candidate and the Clintons are finally being outed.
The Clintons have no potential for conducting a successful presidency. Obama does have that potential and it is as simple as that, for me.
I think it’s tricky, both because because of the national myths Fern talked about, and because people in America don’t think of class the same way as in parts of the world where class is a more explicit part of politics. Virtually anyone who isn’t poor considers themselves to be middle class. I can’t remember if it was Franken or someone else who said that you can tell that Bill O’Reilly’s claim to have grown up working class is a lie because working class people in America don’t refer to themselves as “working class,” they call themselves “middle class.” This is also (I believe) the reason why Democrats these days use the term “working people.”
And it’s further muddled by cross-party definitions. I used to believe that Republicans were just lying about their policies (tax and otherwise) helping the middle class, but I came to realize that while some are lying, there are a lot of them who honestly believe that the middle class are people who make $200K or more, and everyone else is “poor.” Add in the national myths that there’s a lot of economic mobility, and that anyone can become rich, and the field is ripe for deceptive conservative rhetoric.
Been at plenty of meeting like that.
Haaretz gives the remaining candidates the following “Israel Factor” ratings:
7.75 McCain
7.50 Clinton
6.87 Romney
5.12 Obama
Patrick is not the same kind of orator, and the Democratic legislators here are doing everything in their power to muddy the waters. Plus, frankly, some of the things he is doing are less than brilliant.
The next para to my 53:
This person, whom I call a nomadic subject, will occupy all these various positions every day in discourse and society (with respect to institutions and people and events) and will have to negotiate all the tensions attendant to these positions from day to day, depending on the context. And this is how and why race and gender can be part of someone’s identity and not be defined by it…
So who are you voting for? /s
Well… we have the Kennedy’s who are wealthy, well educated, and progressive and could perhaps be considered “upper class”. And we have the Bushes who are wealthy, well educated, “upper class” and fascists. So I don’t see how one’s socio-economic class necessarily determines one’s political outlook. The short answer to the question ‘do I think “class” should play a part in considerations one makes in terms of voting for a particular candidate is no.
Yea, and I guess that is one reason JE’s message didn’t take hold.
Truth telling can help. Name-calling, not so much.
Truth?! Every male?! I also believe in speaking truth to power, and I am VERY politically active where I work, but you have to pick the good from the bad and begin there.
Obama on the 5th and hopefully in the general
I had lots of fun at brunch with you guys last weekend. I would like one of those “Irish breakfasts” again right now…don’t tell Howie!
Ahem. I didn’t say every male on Wall St. was a misogynist, nor every male. Just said I didn’t think it was possible to reconcile with those who are.
But then, my experience probably doesn’t count for anything.
It must have been exhausting.
I don’t think of the Bushes as upper class, just rich.
There is a cultural element to class as well.
One of the most infuriating things I ever read was an op-ed in the early 90’s (may even have been the 80’s) by the head of the National Association of Manufacturers about how it didn’t matter that individual wages weren’t going up because most households had two earners and household income was up.
Nicely stated.
When I look at Clinton and Obama, my first thought is Iraq. Then I go on to other political issues which separate these two candidates. One of which I will be voting for come next November.
Hillary gets a lot of heat about being the “evil” corporate lawyer on the Wal-Mart. In 1986, do you think it was socially “useful” for her to be the “token” female on the board? As is typical she was put in charge of the diversity committee.
Shark-fu, the Angry Black B*tch, offered some thoughts on these matters as well, back before the 06 elections:
There’s plenty more where that came from, if you care to click through.
Toleration may be better than overt abuse and attacks, but acceptance beats them both, hands down.
Thanks for the post, Jane.
Mmmm, me too. I have meetings after work nearly every night this week, so I haven’t been getting real dinner.
Zactly. He was essentially making a class based argument (though that of course was not what he called it). Though he was still honouring the dream that in America, everyone could become middle class – ie. one America.
As regards attitudes to class, Americans have long been saddled with a cultural myth from the last century and the one before that, that class boundaries do not exist as uncrossable divides here. There is the Horatio Alger narrative, that by hard work, smarts and a little luck one could cross the class divide, and the poor boy from the slums could end up wealthy and respected. The fact that this has, in what turn out to be statistically rare occasions, actually happened, keeps this myth alive, whole the actual class divides remain alive and well, increasingly rigid and the antipodes increasingly far apart.
The rise of the great middle class over the last 75 years also served to blur class distinctions as the lower class became the middle and gained increasing wealth and comfort. Now, of course, that is all in reverse as the middle class gets decimated and the wealthy increase their wealth by orders of magnitude.
Nonetheless, the idea of class mobility had kept this idea of a classless society going in the face of all contrary evidence, along with the deeply held conviction among many that they, too have a shot at the brass ring. Why criticize the rich when you could become one of them? This accounts for things like the hostility among those whom it would never affect towards the estate tax.
On the other hand, no matter how hard one worked, how smart one was, or how many lucky breaks one got, you could never become male, or white if you weren’t born that way. Therefore, in the eyes of many, even when not so in a practical sense, lines of race and gender are more inflexible and more strictly drawn than class.
That is highly likely. However, my point is that Hillary is such a divisive personality that many independents and Democrats may not vote at all or reluctantly for McCain because of their dislike for her. I will vote for any Democratic Candidate, but many won’t because of sexism, because they hated Bill Clinton, Because they hate her, or because they do not trust her. That combined tells me she will make a tight race when it should be a blowout.
Not so sure that Clinton “hatred” has always been about Hillary.
Myself and many of my friends were happy to have Bill get elected in 1992, even though I campaigned against him in the primaries. After Raygun and Shrub the First, we were happy to have any Democrat (in theory at least) in the White House.
After a few years, it was becoming quite obvious that we’d been “had.” I started becoming upset with Bill and his actions, and in fact used to say Hillary should take over because of her supposed work toward better health coverage and “it takes a child…” stuff. The DemocratIC Party rapidly disintegrated into a tool for BigMoney to keep us Liberals from actually getting anything accomplished legislatively. Then, Bill gets a BJ in the White House from an intern and lies about it under oath, completely embarrassing the DemocratIC Party and giving the Noize Machine enough ammo, justifiable ammo at this point, to tar Al Gore enough by guilt through association.
Those reasons and their long history of dirty campaigning are why I and many I know dislike The Clintons. It started with Bill, and Hillary has done very little too show she wants to do things differently.
At the risk of revocation of my progressive credentials, I must say that I don’t give a flying fuck about any of the identity-politics squabbling in this campaign season. Not Chris Matthews’s sexism, not Bill Clinton’s conflation of Jesse Jackson with Obama, not the complaints in some activist circles that Obama is insufficiently black. I don’t give a shit about any of it.
One bigotry ought to overshadow all political discussion, and that’s the presumption that Americans (Israelis too, but that’s for another post) have the right to violate international law and invade countries that have neither attacked nor threatened us, and kill and maim and displace their inhabitants at will.
The illegal invasion of Iraq has precipitated the untimely death of approximately half a million Iraqis, and in my book every one of those deaths was a lynching. Democrats will allow the leaders who perpetrated this crime to go both unimpeached and unprosecuted.
Sure, the Republicans are spectacularly worse. But the daylight between Republicans and even nominally progressive Democrats is the difference merely between embodying and enabling this bigoted, triumphalist, neocon agenda, and I’ll be damned if I let anyone tell me that this state of affairs shouldn’t nauseate me to the core.
Whether or not Hillary is hobbled by misogyny or Obama by incipient racism — these issues might have had traction for me at some more idyllic time. But their complicity in and/or insufficient opposition to world-historic — and yes, racist – murder overshadows all.
I was speaking basically in terms of economic strata (class if you will). Now as to the question of is the Bush gang ‘classy’? The view in our home is a resounding no.
Not particularly. It was so routine.
But I did witness a funny one. Female Director of Research of large NYC money manager was speaking at Financial Women’s Assn breakfast. I invited the salesman who covered the account. We arrived separately & hooked up during the meet & greet. He was beet red. Said he thought he was the only male there. (Out of about 100 attendees, there were probably a handful.) I said: Well now you know what it’s been like for most of my career. I think he got the point.
From what I’ve seen from them to this point, I’d very strongly support Donna Edwards or Darcy Burner over Obama. Given Obama and Hillary, I’m picking Obama.
Am I sexist?
DingDingdingDingDing!!!!!
I used to claim being tolerant and then realized that in fact I was being arrogantly judgmental. I.E., “I have judged you and found you wanting but in my magnanimous exercise in goodwill, I won’t say anything.”
Acceptance is much harder to bring about.
Great story ….. and a terrific way to have made a point.
Sounds like my degree program in Adult Education. There were far more women than men in the program and one night a mom brought her young son to a seminar class. Afterward he said top her, “why are the men so quiet in there”?
So has Mukasey now:
So, per the Attorney General of the United States of America, it’s not “torture” and not a crime, if you obtain sufficiently important information.
The obvious next question is whether Bush and Cheney have obtained sufficently important information that they are not criminals? If the information that they’ve waterboarded out of their victims is of insufficient value, I recommend that they be immediately impeached and imprisoned without bail. Flight risk you know. I understand that one of them recently purchased a get away in Paraguay.
Wasn’t that when Wally World proudly promoted it’s ‘Made in America’ meme… Ahhh, those were the days…
The best example that I can think of is Bill Clinton interacting with large groups of African Americans…he doesn’t change. Watch almost any other white politician in the same situation and they behave differently, including Hillary.
I was thinking about Bill’s stupid attacks against Obama, Bill the racist. The thing that occurred to me is that he saw no problem with it because of the idea of “acceptance”. He would have treated a white politician the same way.
Very perspicacious boy.
I, however, was not silent in meetings.
The sexist, racist, anti-semetic cards are deliberately charge words. If I want to shut someone up and put them on the defence, off-target, use one of those cards. It works. Whenever these words are used it is sticking your finger in the eye of the other person.
Gurdjieff has a concept that when you use the same term over and over you become a machine. There is no meaning to what you are saying other than a mechanical response – in this case, malace.
I welcome an honest open discussion on race and gender. It is interesting to check my own inner feelings before responding to what I filter someone else to be saying. Does it satisify my nature that wants to attack and their comment becomes an open invitation? Honest begins within me checking out my own intent. Sometimes it just isn’t very pretty. But if I face it I can confront that demon and I feel another side of myself responding.
An open honest discussion challenges my deepest feelings.
Great post Jane. Along with interpretations of the discussion, we also need to address how the dialog is filtered through the media. As we have seen in the past few weeks – it is a pretty clogged up filter.
Mukasey said that was the wrong word. “I mean the heinousness of doing it, the cruelty of doing it, balanced against the value…. balanced against the information you might get.” Information “that couldn’t be used to save lives,” he explained, would be of less value.
And we didn’t do Saddam why?
The problem with Hillary is that, if someone held the same views as she, and had the same voting record, and had pushed for an amendment to the Constitution banning flag burning, and was as mobbed up with the DLC, the lobbyists and the corporatists as she is and wasn’t a woman and wasn’t named Clinton, they would have no shot at the Democratic nomination.
And about language: language is infused with metaphors, which have robust and rich histories that we never be in complete control of. You never know to where a metaphor will travel and land (metaphor is from the Greek metaporein, which means transport). That’s why language can be treacherous. For instance, the sentence “He/She’s the black sheep in the family” is loaded as hell.
There Bonkers you have your answer
“He/She’s the black sheep in the family”
How did you know that? :)
I suspect that’s part of the reason. It’s also why I’d like to see the healthcare rhetoric from the candidates focus less on the poor and uninsured, and more on the middle class. For most voters, the poor may be people we should help because it’s morally right, but the middle class are us, and programs focused on the poor have always been vulnerable to racist codeword attacks that money is going to people who don’t “deserve” it.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s urgent to do something to fix healthcare for the poor and uninsured, just not to campaign on it. The fact is that our healthcare system sucks for everyone but the rich, and the movement to fix it for everyone would, I think, be better built on that basis.
I have no opinion on that. There are so many ways to look at a decision to be a token. I would respect whatever the person in question decided.
A lot of the Wal-Mart criticism is presentism. Wal-Mart was not considered so evil in the day.
I actually paid a visit to their corporate HQ when they still had linoleum on the floor & cubicles for high executives.
Thanks for this Peterr:
Toleration may be better than overt abuse and attacks, but acceptance beats them both, hands down.
I would say so… You seem to have sharp elbows, M’dear… ;-)
…that we can never be in complete control of…
You forget…they don’t do logical arguments. :)
Yeah, just stating the obvious.
I’m a middle-aged WM, born and raised in Kentucky. There are all sorts of words and phrases that were common when I was growing up that I would never use today.
One of the things I’ve forced myself to do is to actually listen when folks complain about something being racist or misogynistic.
It was also very educational to be a WM stationed in Hawaii. It gave me a few years of life as a minority where I was the recipient of some of the casual racism.
Ah HA! moments you might say.
About the “electability” idea:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/065279.php
When Hillary has to go head-to-head with Obama, her huge poll advantages disappear or turn into outright spankings like S.C. Michigan and Fl she didn’t face the others at all and her percentages matched name recognition polls.
Just simply seems to me she is not a good candidate.
There is a wonderful Indonesian term, a class society, to describe the Bushes. Yes, they are rich but they are KASAR. It means the inner nature, the soul, is coarse and crude. Unevolved. In fact, they are worthy of “kasar sekali” (very, the ultimate, coarse and crude).
That was the point that I was trying to make..there are plenty of reasons to oppose Hillary…but there is also a lot of the “other” reason. It seems that there are a lot of comments on anti-Hillary blogs where reason #1 is used as a cover for reason #2. I only bring up the early 80’s because ,at that time, the Hillary hatred was obviously reason #2 … there was no “policy difference” to use as cover.
The irony of the negative connotation of “out with the old, in with the new” is that I suspect Hillary alone is more “new” in a progressive sense than those running her campaign, and perhaps even more so than Obama. And part of the “newness” is being a woman — I would vote for her for that reason, all other things being equal. I look at those who are closest advisers, and I shudder — not just Penn, but also Holbrook et al.
Without being a supporter NOW, my willingness to support her candidacy if she becomes the nominee is based on an unprovable assumption that she is better than those around her and would not listen to them.
Similarly, if he became the nominee, I would vote for Obama because he is black, all other things being equal, because like the sex barrier, the racial barrier needs to fall. And just as I make an unsupported assumption wrt to Hillary, I would support Obama on the unprovable assumption that he is not really naive about the bipartisan delusion but has instead adopted that frame because it helps him get elected — by diminishing whatever negative effect being black/liberal/partisan/whatever might otherwise have on his candidacy.
In short, I’m prepared to support either candidate on the assumption neither of them is who they present themselves to be, but it’s okay. If either/both disappoint me, it will be my fault, again.
Absolutely!
I’m not rich, insured (at a very high cost, BTW) and I am in fear for what my insurance might not cover and what my co-pays and deductables ($3,500) might do to me if I were to actually need health care.
Another example: “He told a white lie.” (Which ameliorates that lie.)That assumes there’s a black lie. Not so good.
Edwards made a deal for the good of the party…Clinton and Obama said they would make ending poverty a top issue . We need to fix Americas house. Domestic issues. It was timely and strategic for this he will get a voice in the administration for us.
So true – I spent 25 years on Madison Avenue and left with a bruised forehead as I kept trying to climb the ladder to success (I did as well as I was allowed – not as well as I could.)
So I left, started my own little company and then went to law school. I just tunneled my way in another direction to feel that I was achieving what I was not able to do elsewhere.
My heart is with Hillary, and the crap that is dumped on her head – sadly, now, by “supporters” of our own party – is horrifying to me. Truly horrifying.
JimWhite,
Thanks for bringing that to the forefront. The Faludi article really resonated with me. I’m looking for a president that approaches problems the way I do in my personal life which is why this article really hit home.
Good point. At that time bringing “big city” shopping to rural, under served areas was considered a good thing.
The Clintons got us into a lot of the mess we’re in (remember NAFTA), and Hillary is a “hold your nose and vote) option for me. I will vote for Obama if he is the democrat. If Hillary is the democrat, for the first time in 40 years, I might not vote. She has the potential to be worse than Bush if that’s possible. It’s got nothing to do with race or Gender. That Obama is black bothers me little. Kennedy was a Catholic. I’m not. I voted for him. If you want to think I won’t vote for Hillary on a gender issue, you’re dead wrong, but I can’t stop idiots either. She’ll be a terrible president. She and Bubba are far too friendly with the Bush dynasty.
It does appear that there is overt racism that needs challenging. Unfortunately that is usually well hidden. Then there are the slights and off-hand remarks that get blown up into racism that are twisted to suit a purpose. Those should be looked at more closely. We all should be more cautious before claiming grievances.
It seems the media is really good at promoting slights as racism, where it does become really difficult to even carry on a conversation without fearing a backlash. If they smell a good narrative, they run with it.
Unfortunately, there is no comprehension on the part of the media regarding sexism. That’s unfortunate, but it doesn’t receive the same negative publicity that perceived racism does.
That’s so funny. I used almost exactly those same words.
metaphor:
Great character there, Bill. Non-discriminating attacks. No one’s safe from attacks from the multi-cultural Bill Clinton. What a pig!
As regards to racial and gender divides may I misquote Shakespeare?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to perceive.
We really need to work on building up in the public mind the national story (since it’s not a myth) about how the great expansion of the middle class in the 20th Century was a result of the GI Bill, a progressive tax system, and strong unions supported by fair laws, all actions by government not to dictate the market, but to set its rules to the greater benefit of all. The conservative myth that everyone does great if government just gets out of the way has held sway for too long.
Similar experiences breed similar expressions!
Mine has healed, how about your forehead? (Except when I hear the code words about Hillary and then something deep inside goes berserk – as if I was living through that crap all over again.)
I’m sorry, I meant Sir Walter Scott. My bad.
I know I bring this up every time someone says the Clintons got us into NAFTA. They only gave it its name. The policy was entrenched for a dozen years beginning 1981 under Ronald Reagan and continued with daddy Bush.
I was there personally and my industry was the first to fall. I was in the apparel industry. The deal was quietly made with China so IBM, Coca Cola and other multinational companies could get a foot in China. By the end of the eighties apparel manufacturing in the US was gone.
Exactly how would Senator Hillary Clinton be a worse President than the one we have now? That is simply not possible.
Honestly, I’m tired of the discussion. Don’t think much gets accomplished by talking about it. Members of disadvantaged groups just have to be a lot better to get to the same level, and not a lot else is going to make much difference.
Before I get attacked for the latter statement wrt prez condidates, I mean it statistically, not when applied to a particular person’s career.
That is why I question the motives of a lot of the Hillary haters. The whole “evil Wal-Mart corporate lawyer” is pure crap. During that time frame she was working full time and also working on child welfare issues, was on a Hospital board and working to get money for neo-natal intensive care etc. She was also getting heat for being a bad mother because Bill was involved with child care.
I don’t see how losing jobs to China has anything to do with the much-maligned NAFTA.
When LBJ was dragged in to sign the Veterans Readjustment Benefits Act of 1966 (The Vietnam Era GI Bill) he noted that the WWII GI Bill was the “greatest economic flywheel” in the history of the US. Of course the WWII bill was, in many ways, an anti-revolution measure developed after the experience of the Bonus Armyy. Funny how stuff works out.
”you couldn’t write anything negative about Bill Clinton online because the ”Clinton era” was considered the halcyon days, and the ”Clintons” only became toxic and archaic once Hillary started running. So the suspicion that many are hiding some old fashioned lizard-brain sexism behind this new found skepticism towards the Clintons remains.”
What I want to know is ”who made that rule”? because let me tell you, as someone who voted for clinton in 1992 and has regretted that vote ever since (ahem NAFTA, DOMA, welfare reform ahem), I DON’T see the clinton years as ”halcyon”. Better than Herr Bush to be sure, but nothing to write home about. Speaking for myself, hating on the Clintons has nothing to do with ”lizard brain sexism” and more with personal experience. And yet, I’ve been attacked for not pretending that the Clinton days were oh-so-great.
”When people say ”out with the old, in with the new” about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, what I hear is that there is no room for a middle aged woman in a position of political leadership.”
I don’t hear that at all. What I hear is a desire for a repudiation of the DLC ”third way triangulating republican lite” politics, and unfortunately the Clintons and the people they surround themselves with are third way triangualting republican lite DLC democrats.
Question: Does Donna Edwards get the same kind of reaction from progressives? or Darcy Burner? Until her ”impeachment is off the table” bullshit, was anyone progressive pulling the lizard brain treatment on Pelosi? I don’t think so… but I might be wrong too. I think a lot of the negative reaction to Hillary Clinton has less to do with racism and sexism than antipathy toward Clintonism and what that represents.
On being ”Black”:
This issue of labeling Obama as ”black” raises a lot of other issues that expose racial stereotyping:
Why is Obama ”Black”? Is it because he has Kenyan blood? If this is true, then, since he is half white, then why is he not being labeled ”white”? think about this. Is it because of a racist belief that any person with ANY African blood is pigeonholed as black? if this is true, then I, of Sicilian parentage, am black.
Remember the Creole of New Orleans- of mixed race, yet of their own culture, and values. Not French, Indian, African, Haitian, Spanish, Italian, Anglo, but a blend of all of these. Outcast who made their own highly sophisticated culture and thrived, until the whites destroyed it with their money and segregationist ideas. America has always had a subculture of mixed race people and America has always been very uncomfortable with the idea, blacks, whites, asian, hispanic, alike. What does this say about America, in itself?
Is he being labeled black because of upbringing- i.e. social categorization? Obama seems to classify himself as black because of this. But, does anyone recall the Steve Martin movie, ”The Jerk”? Funny as it was, the beginning raises an important point: If a person is raised in so called black culture (and I would LOVE to read the definition of this- it it Snoop Doggy, Charley Pride, Condi Rice, or Bill Cosby?) then is he or she black? Does that make Mariah Carey or Teena Marie ”Black”? Does it make any person who is not African blood who acts ”black” black?
My take is that Obama needs to be classified as ”Harvard”. May be even a Volvo owner, but I digress.
This media push to put Obama in the category of black and distract us from the issues, is nothing more than a revival of ancient racism, and a refusal to see what Obama really is- the face of new America. And we Democrats must refute this meme, and label Obama as a successful American who represents all races.
Thanks for the reminder..the Holidays were bad for eating..I am getting a little porcine.
Indeed.
Interesting speech from Jim Cramer on just that subject yesterday. Yes, that Jim Cramer. Seems he doesn’t like laissez faire government, either.
That sounds like a restatement of a great scene from Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”:
Reg, the revolutionary group leader, is trying to stir up the rest of his crew against Rome, and says, “What have the Romans ever done for us?” Unfortunately for him, his crew starts to answer him, tossing out responses one by one. Finally, he cuts them off:
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace – shut up!
Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there’s one. But otherwise, we’re solid.
After my business fell apart I became a head hunter for the apparel business. Women and blacks and Asians, never mind Latinos, didn’t have a rats patootie of getting through the reinforced iron ceiling.
I don’t like the tone…attitude of today’s Lake it is not moving anything antwhere and lakers are attacking each other… dividing when we need momentum to get the presidency and the congress. People come her and see what ever we offer. American to some degree is all of these things. Tittle 8 equal funding for women in sports is an example od effective improvement towards equal rights.
Most of us know the story of how absolutely horrible big business is to women… Martha Stewart got time for insider trading. Liberals running for or in presidency got assasinated as did MLK and many others. We live in a violent society. A racist society that discriminates against gays and a cookie cutter mentality. The right religion etc. What the fucking hell is new about this??????????? Not a goddamn thing and there is work to do and being done find the organization and pitch in where it makes a difference.
I was talking about the characterless Bill Clinton, not you.
I will vote for the Dem nominee in the general, irregardless… However, with Edwards out, I’m skipping the primary…
Yes.
It was a privilege to read.
Our European ancestors routinely slaughtered each other based on religion, which was almost always based on the perceived ethnic differences (French versus the English; English versus the Scotts and the Irish; Germans versus the French; Russians versus the Poles….). I can still recall stories about my 100% German (Roman-Catholic) grandparent’s vehement anger at their oldest daughter for choosing to marry a (Roman-Catholic) 100% Irishman.
That is the goal imho for race and gender, because neither is a meaningful category, as far as predicting career suitability is concerned. Just as our country-of-European-ancestry has receded as a predictor of anything, as we progressives continue to do this kind of work, race and gender will gradually fade away as adjectives: “1. The part of speech that modifies a noun or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying and distinguished in English morphologically by one of several suffixes, such as -able, -ous, -er, and -est, or syntactically by position directly preceding a noun or nominal phrase.
2. Any of the words belonging to this part of speech, such as white in the phrase a white house.”
My daughter was telling me this morning that a lot of the people she talks to feel that Obama is more white than black. Interesting, I thought.
That’s a good one; thanks for pointing it out.
NAFTA acknowledged a globalization that capital and technology set up together as a condominium, and that already was in operation defacto. Losing jobs to China is a result of globalization.
Title 9
My pleasaure
IIRC, Dorgan said much the same on the floor of the Senate yesterday, and proposed a bill to replace the Montgomery GI bill that I utilized…
Must learn to spell, or type. Or both.
And why do your daughter’s friends think it’s important that Obama is more white than black?
When I first saw his pix., I thought he was Egyptian…
I have no idea – just thought it was a different view since all we hear is that he is black. I won’t care what color he is – just so long as he can do the job.
Increase dependence on foreign oil, do not end Iraq War, look foolish to the rest of the world and disappoint. I emphasize the last word.
This reminded me of George Costanza selling brassieres.
Aha! A racist remark. No one raised the question of racial importance, until your post. Careful or you will open Pandora’s box…
An interesting African American point of view on the Clintons and race.
Even if you don’t agree, I think it is something we must consider, that people of color are thinking about the Clintons.
http://getridofthedlc.blogspot…..fault.html
Yea, web was on it too. Army of Dude has a comment of his blog.
Obama has a white mother from Kansas and a black father from Kenya. Kind of makes him mixed race, no? Not white, not black.
Sort of like Tiger Woods who calls himself a “combinasian,” since he has more Asian and American Indian ancestry than black.
Remember the word “Octaroon?”
So we don’t talk about anything uncomfortable?
I’m with you on the substance. Was looking to find out why others think it’s important to talk about race.
That’s cuz he walks like an Egyptian!
They are also endorsing Hillary – Maxine Waters yesterday.
He’s got a condo made of stona
Here’s the skinny on how the Reagan policy worked. They promised China the US apparel industry. Workers in China were sent to Hong Kong, taking jobs away from the Hong Kong people, for a fraction of the wage. Export tariffs were placed on small businesses, like mine, to the tune of 80% to 600%. US companies who moved their manufacturing operation to Hong Kong with Chinese labor (Liz Claiborne, mass marketeers, etc.), had no tariffs.
We were manufacturing in the US. I supplied 200 small manufacturers and designers with silk. Prices soared. Manufacturing in the US was astronomical. In the meantime, products came in from Hong Kong at very low prices and undercut the US apparel market. It’s an old capitalist trick. Flood the market and put your competitors out of business. In less than one year all my clients were out of business.
Don’t know how we escape it since the media certainly will hammer it to death – “can an African-American win” meme.
Being the product of a Kansas Farmer’s Daughter and a Kenyan Tribal Chief, how can one say he’s more white than black, or vice versa…?
OK, I have a funny story:
I have Nigerian heritage. I was once visiting Nigeria with my then wife, and we were walking on the street in Lagos. (My ex is white.) A Nigerian kid about 12 or so came up to us and asked me: “Are you black, sir?” He was in fact asking me if I was an American…
Back in September when there were seven Dem candidates, eriposte (a progressive blogger I encountered here at FDL headlining a few Libby posts) began to analyze and compare the candidates’ voting records and positions. They are here. He had no favorite and did not expect to select one before the primaries, but on Dec. 13 he saw that his studies had led him to endorse HRC.
His work is worth looking at even if you differ. I seem to be having trouble linking, so try http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011475.php if the link is faulty.
I don’t say either one. I like him and don’t care about his color or that he is more this than that. Don’t think it should matter but it will – if the media has anything to do with it.
Ya think anyone outside of the lake knows what the hell a “meme” is?
How did you respond, Bio?
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Homosexuality, Jane!
Pam knows the territory. Quite well. It’s why “bipartisanship” is just another way of saying “Shut up, FAG!!!!” or “BITCH!!!” or whatever.
Second verse, same as the first.
Obama: the exotic Kenyan-Kansan…as someone in MSM print media recently called him.
I’ll buy that. I just get cranky (speaking as a Canadian) when Americans complain about a trade agreement has had a lot of negative results for us.
Eriposte’s Hillary link is here (with luck)
Did you say “word”
no
Excellent post. FWIW, I always like to throw Jessica Alba, Halle Berry, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, and Joe Torre in there too.
if I was African-American…*g*
And the article references the CBC which includes Maxine Waters .
I am telling you I have been reading alot of the A.A. blogs lately to get a feel how this is all playing out, and between them and my friends and relatives who are people of color…”IT AIN’T PRETTY” what they are saying.
whew! :)
forgot to add :)
I said yes, since it’s true in both senses of the word…*g*
Don’t forget superbowl mvp Hines Ward.
Oh, now that makes more sense.
Got it.
We lost most of our garment industry in Canada at around the same time.
Delurking for a well-nuanced post, Jane.
While I find the “out with the old” phrasing a bit of a blunt axe, I have found my evaluation of the Clinton era to have evolved recently. It is unfortunate that this coincides with the rise of Hillary’s candidacy. At the risk of sounding plaintive about it, I’m very disappointed about this, because I would so love to see a woman president at this time (and we still may), but to many that sounds like “some of my best friends are women.”
If “out with the old” flies from my lips, anti-corporatism is the intent, and one hopes such clarification is taken for what is meant, but I do understand the reasonable sensitivities of the listener.
My hunch is that you will find huge fault lines around gender in the African American community. African American women perceive gender as the primary discrimination they face. Ethnic prejudice in their experience is secondary to sexism.
Good thing he was born here in Hawaii, where ethnicity is not a discriminating factor, Birth Certificates issued here generally have five or more nationalities listed on them… While I worked in the HI Guard we required to have their BC’s submitted into their 201 files and I’ve seen some with 10 nationalities listed…
see my 193. But as Raven thinks you should have said ‘word’ LOL!
Very good. I have learned something from you today. Thanks.
okk ;0)
Oh, I swooooon over Hinds Ward!
Sad, but true.
I see a severe lack of character in Obama and I’m not swayed by his salesman-like speeches, so I suppose I’ll vote for Edwards in the primary (if he’s still on the ballot) and Hillary in the general election.
I don’t much care for Hillary’s Repub-Lite positions, but I can put up with that the way I put up with Bill’s. Heaven help us but we do need some character in the White House.
Best of luck to everyone in deciding how to vote.
You were on the hit list as well. I lived in Montreal. I found outstanding European tailors there. You also had an abundance of high quality fabrics. I treasured the wardrobe I had designed and made there for years. Bet there isn’t much of that any more.
The impression here is that the imperative is to rid the White House of the Republicans. To that end I will vote next November for Hillary or Obama.
Cameo
Wave your hand in the air like you don’t care
Jane wrote:
“Lately I’ve been told by no small number of men that if I hear something as sexist I’m being “oversensitive” or just plain wrong.”
Does experience matter? Men who second guess a woman’s take on sexism have no first hand experience of it. None. Nope, none. We have no first hand experience of the context.
Experience does matter. I wish I could be more eloquent There are some things about sexism that are easier for men to say. I think this is one of them and we should be saying it loud and clear whenever we hear other men jumping to judgement about a woman’s “sensitivity”.
Whenever we men hear a woman say ’sexism’ we would be a lot better off if we just sincerely asked: Since I am a male and have no first hand experience of sexism would you mind explaining this to me. And then take it on board and let it rest awhile and if you still thing she is off base, ask around someone else about it. But don’t go back at her after you have asked her to explain. We do that too much and that is why women are often wary of trying to explain. Sorry if this is preachy, I feel very stongly.
Joel Mael
Now that’s a very interesting perspective.
With all the Repubes “retiring” from Congress, I wonder if Howie Klein’s able to keep up with so many new possible races for Blue America candidates
http://www.politico.com/blogs/…..ction.html
More and Better!
Jane and pups, I have been without my own computer for ages but thanks for the post and civilized comments. As for me, I vote for issues and what’s important for me. I truly could care less about the sex of color of the candidate as much as their stands on national security, health care and the economy. Hillary and Barack are very close on all issues except for national security. Hillary’s vote recognizing the Iran Rev. Army as a terrorism group opened the door to Bush to invade. She says not but Bush needs only a slight crack to use that vote. Although Obama did not vote, his vote would not have made a difference, he has been vocal in his opposition to this. Come Nov. I will vote for the democratic candidate but Hillary has to convince me that her policies are far removed from the republicans on national security for me to support her.
It never would have occurred to me that “Out with the old, in with the new” would be construed as anti-woman or anti-Hillary in particular, especially in this race.
It may well be how it is heard by some people, clearly it is for Jane. But it seems a pretty circuitous route from that phrase to misogyny.
Interesting. I’ve always gotten “no more Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton” but I obviously have a different perspective.
Great post.
I believe the winning ticket is Clinton/Obama or the other way around. Of course a lot of this possible solution depends on huge egos.
That’s 22 (!!!!) Repubs who are not running. Have we ever had this many open seats before? Looking good for the Dems.
OT–
FDL is highly addictive. It’s freezing cold in MN today (-40 or so wind chill factor), so I’m at home and refuse to go outside, and my cable teevee is out (till tomorrow), so I’ve been at my workstation dipping at the Lake since around 7 AM–and still here. I even dipped in last night, which I’ve never done.
It’s my experience that sexism can’t be explained because explanations sound like whining. The handful of times I think I’ve made a point have been in response to real-time situations, like what I described @94.
The GoGo’s and Cameo in the same afternoon. I’m swept back 20 years. Thanks for that; now if I just don’t come close to a mirror, my day will be great! *g*
Exactly! The dynastic problem.
Count is up to 25, according to TPM.
Now if some Repub Senators would decide not to run….
Hi all. I have not been to the lake in a few days. I am disappointed that Edwards is dropping out of the race. Here is a little nugget I picked up last night in the Concierge lounge at my hotel in downtown Cedar Rapids, IA. The Service worker taking care of the lounge mentioned that she had met and worked with almost all of the Presidential candidates over the long campaign season in Iowa. She stated the Edwards was the most genuine, down to earth and sincere person amongst the lot.
She mentioned one incident with Hillary Clinton. Hillary arrived late to the hotel and the hotel restaurant was very busy. Hillary tried to insist that the hotel staff ask a young couple to clear out their table before they were finished in order for Hillary to have a table. She was turned off by that. She also mentioned that Barack was cheap and did not want to pay $40 for his own private room for his staff. He wanted instead to bar the public from the public concierge lounge. She said the republican candidates were quiet and kept to themselves. Too bad the most genuine candidate and the voice of progressive causes is now gone. End Rant.
Filed under WTF?
Ending the carnage in Iraq, improving education, providing health care to all americans, putting food on the table, making a good future for our kids, fixing the economy and most other issues are non racial and non gender specific
Do you have any data to point to on this?
TPM is saying 28 Repubs. We need to make sure we pick up many of these with actual Liberals and not DLCers. Could be another HUGE blue wave. C’mon Howard Dean and Howie Klein!
How about some Alaska ones?
I would like to do something about Bill. For years I said Hillary should have dumpted him. Instead she listened to a male’s advice, another Billy (Graham) and he told her to stay.
I fantasize the 9 to 5 plot by the girls who kidnapped their boss so they could implement long overdue company improvements. I love that movie. I scream and laugh all the way through it and pretend to be one of the characters.
Here I go, plotting a Bill removal.
I found your anecdote telling. Character shows when one is dealing with service personnel.
FWIW, based on my “research” on football blogs, Hines is perceived by European Americans to be every bit as “black,” as Michael Jordan. It’s one reason so many African American men shave their heads (and African American women try to straighten their hair). One of the key ethnic cues European Americans
“black radar”use to detect descendants of U.S. slaves (because that data is crucial to them) is hair. It’s the kink in the hair, that European Americans use to distinguish between someone who might be Middle Eastern or Latin American and what they perceive as really objectionable, an ebonics-speaking “black,” descendant of the U.S. slaves.*One of the most sickening vestiges of 450 years of legalized white supremacy in the U.S. are the advertisments for singles. Ethnicity is still deemed to be a critical adjective. A lot of primarily European American men and women have already made up their mind that they are not under any conditions going to even consider dating someone who is not “white” (whatever “white” means to them).
The shame in this is that ebonics, is simply a result of segregation that was forced on African Americans by European Americans. European Americans who do not like ebonics, have no one to blame except their European American ancestors.
LOL!
I am celebrating the fact that either a woman or a black person is on the verge of achieving the highest office in the land.
Dyson – I like him. He takes a societal perspective. He shocks me out of my complacency while pointing to our society’s ingrained racism. More power to him.
A Hillary or McCain presidency will signal, for a lot of people, our unreadiness to accept a black president. And they will be right, on some level.
Part of me wants them both to succeed – because being non-white and non-male have been such barriers to success in our country.
For me too —
Like it or not, there is one person that can unify the Republican Party — and her name is Hillary.
Personally, I am sick to death of Bill Clinton — he is a snake oil salesman, and should not be allowed within thousand yards of the White House.
I like Hillary, but as next Bush Clinton Bush Clinton, no thanks. We as a nation can do better than that. Of course, Hillary or any Democrat is 1000 times better than any Republican — but as far as being enthused about Hillary, that ain’t me.
My first choice for POTUS 44 was Pelosi 07 — but that didn’t go anywhere, so here we are.
I support Obama because he is dynamic, charismatic, and a potential agent of change.
I oppose Hillary because of her Clintonian character. She is intelligent, articulate, although somewhat stiff on the stump — but the Clinton brand is a magnet for right wing hate. Bill Clinton showed his contempt for us with his Monica dalliance, and has shown it again with his racist dog whistle campaign for Team Hill and Bill. That Hillary has not shut him down makes her every bit as responsible as he is for the dsgrace that is Bill.
Go, Obama!!! Clintons, Go Home!!!
No, but I think you’ll find that men and women without a high school diploma are overwhelmingly more likely to have very sexist stereotypes of gender. Thanks to two centuries of slavery and another century of legalized white supremacy, African Americans more than any other U.S. ethnic group, except Native Americans, were deprived of access to education. (For example in the 1920’s, there were only four high schools in the state of Florida that admitted “coloreds” of either gender.) While it is no longer legal to deprive an ethnic group of access to education, the economic impact of legalized white supremacy continues to manifest itself in the digital divide.
Well said, Jane. How did we get to post-feminism when so few women are in top political office, never mind the presidency?
Class, race and sex are interlocked…though not perfectly symmetrical in US society. The corporate elites are going to use any identifier to cause disarray within those demanding a better deal from the system that holds them in economic servitude. It’s why unions were often broken up by the use of ethnic or gender based issues historically. People seem to think of these things as zero-sum games and can’t find a way out of the trap.
I support the Democratic nominee because the alternative is unsupportable.
If Edwards is still on the ballot in Illinois Tuesday I will vote for him as intended.
Here’s a thought.
Would a woman of color have made it even as far as Edwards with the same agenda?
Hasn’t happend yet.
Not sure if you’re still around on this thread, but I guess I was asking whether you had data on women of color feeling that gender was primary source of discrimination.
Your response seems to be saying that this is largely an intra-community gender equity issue.
Jane, good topic.
“I don’t know how to repair the situation other than to acknowledge that people’s feelings are legitimate with regard to what they hear no matter the intent, and presuming malicious intent is a great way to make an enemy of someone who probably really wants to be an ally.
Pam is right — the need for new language, for a new way of talking about these things is acute.”
We do need a new language. We need to talk about human beings, not labels. Labels don’t go to work and pay bills and and believe in something and have ideal and morals. Human beings do. I find all the slicing and dicing just so much manipulative crockery designed to keep everyone in their place, keep everyone down. I can’t see how any issue can be discussed when lables are thrown on someone or someone is speaking for an entire labeled group. It just doesn’t address the issues. Until we strip that crap away we will have more of the same.
And indeed, racism, sexism/misogyny exist……. daily. I’ve been a woman all my life and I’ve seen racism in action on a personal level for 15 years of my life as the wife of a service member whose ethnicity was different than my own. That was years ago before I started over with nothing at 38. I face sexism all the time. What I don’t do is fall on the floor kicking and screaming that someone was being sexist or blame ALL my setbacks on my gender. I press on. I don’t tell people they’re sexist or misogynist because they disagree with me. I press on. It takes more strength to do that, and I’m pretty much tired of having to enlighten people about it in my dealings. The word racist and sexist rarely cross my lips. I just press on.
The difference we’ve seen in the candidates is this. Hillary Clinton uses labels every single day. She came out of the box with woman as victim (you’re sexist, pile on, “because I’m a girl”) which stimulates people to defend her. Its who she is. If she were a woman who gave not one once of energy to this victim language and pressed on I’d say she might have some supporters. Instead she has defenders. That’s not a position of power. It sets women back as whole. I didn’t spend my life pressing on through the misogynistic and sexist events to be seen as “victim” now. Its a tone and tenor I find repulsive.
Barak Obama never ONCE came out and made himself to be a victim of racism. Not once. He comes from a position of power. He has steadfastly maintained we are more alike than different and to be true to that. He presses on. His respect of strong women, as equals, is truely empowering for women. He speaks to me on the level that sees each individual as “a person of strength and power”…… as a unique human being, not a label. I don’t agree with a few key things he says but I KNOW this about him, he respects women, and each person really, as persons of strenth and power. That’s a whole other tone and tenor than the alternative.
So, if we’re going to have a new language it has to begin with that….. and it has to begin when we each look in the mirror.
Raven We should go back to either the WWII version or at least Vietnam version of the GI bill. Not only do the current vets deserve it it would be a great boost to the economy.. I am still pissed that the Rethuglian instituted a “means Test” for those Vets who earned their benefits under the Vietnam era bill. Again it was the Rethuglians who screwed the Vets in the name of fiscal responsibility… I say lets take away their benefits for being a member of congress and see how they fucking like it… Bastards… We cannot do enough for those who serve our country, without them we would be nothing.
I guess you could say I advocate for all vets no matter when they served!
Oh and….. your title is exactly the way the msm will frame this race. Its exactly what turns people off. New language: Same old past v. chance for a future.
Jes sayin’
No, that wasn’t my response at all.
That’s on me to clarify it.
No, I have no “data” about the way African American women experience the lethality of sexism versus the lethality of
the prevailing cultural attitudes about white supremacyracism.My comments were based on what I know anecdotally from listening to African American women.
My educated guess was that sexism is most virulent in the Western democracies in less educated populations.
It’s no guess that the vast majority of African Americans are contained in the the US’ less educated population.
I’ll check back if you have more comments or questions.
Big brother you words are words of wisdom as usual… I certainly hope we can recognize that we must must stick together or we will be falling into that Rovian trap of divisiveness which has cost our party dearly in the past… no way in hell can we let the Rethuglians back in power once we rest them from power. We need good progressives who care about the people and the good of the country!
very thoughtful post.
Yes, in areas such as race and gender, acceptance is far better than mere tolerance. But, in terms of thought or the conflict of ideas, tolerance is the best we can get. I may accept some of your ideas or thoughts, meaning you convinced me, but it’s unlikely I would accept all. But, we really do need to tolerate each others ideas/beliefs as best we can, or all communication ceases. Most of the thoughts expressed on FDL seem to me to indicate tolerant attitudes and elicit the opinions of others. A few are so blunt and didactic that they don’t leave much room for discussion, only argument.
jane,
i think it’s really simple, actually. if you say, for example, “what chris matthews said is sexist!” … then you should be ready for others to disagree with this rigid observation/opinion you have. others likely will hear this as rigid, and feel they need to defend their point of view as having space with yours. if you say “i feel irritated when i hear chris matthews speak about clinton, and this causes me to wonder (strongly wonder?) if he is sexist” … then you are expressing a feeling (which no sane person would argue with you about), and an opinion that has room for another point of view. perhaps you are doing all these things, and the folks you are having conversations with are emotinoally underdeveloped. i don’t know.
i respectfully submit that you have it backwards when you write:
a better way for this to work is for people to take responsiblity for what they are saying (ie, a statement about feeling, a rigid statement that is an opinion only, a spacious statement that is about opinion only).
my point is that when folks blend thee things together, the real problems emerge.
So, as it stands now.
Assuming that both Hillary and Obama are acceptable as president, if elected.
If I do not care for Hillary I am sexist.
If I do not care for Obama I am racist.
Sounds like you are setting up a lose-lose situation here.
Another example of why I am really glad I am not American.
Chris Matthews has a pattern of speaking about women in a way that makes it hard to argue he does not have real problems with them.
I think you need a better example.
Let me say at the start that I’ve been driving about for the last three years with an “i miss Clinton” bumper sticker, and if Obama wins the nomination I’ll vote for him because I know that I would be struck down if I voted for a REPUBLICAN. At the same time, I have the feeling that the Republican Party is praying for an Obama victory in the primaries. McCain may be an anathema to the conservatives, but we all know that they will vote white . I grew up when the South was Democratic because they couldn,t forgive Lincoln. But then Johnson really “freed the slaves” , Nixon ran on the situation, and the south has been Solid Republican since. i’m looking for a candidate who
Unfortunately, I finf that Obama is pushing the ” If you’re not suporting me you must be a bigot” a little too much.
Markos is hardly the person to take sexism seriously. Never has, most likely never will.
And there are so many more just like him.
Mention gender, and you’re “playing the gender card.”
Instant trivializing.
Just another way of saying, shut up, b*tch.
Good thought. I don’t disagree we need new language, but I don’t see any good ideas about what it might be. Maybe the best way is yours, ignore it and keep on plugging.
And, maybe the notion of defenders is worth some rethinking. If I call someone out for disrespecting women or racist talk, that makes a difference in the long run. If it is done to someone’s face, say, someone disses a female colleague, then I expect the person to take the lead, and I expect to be supportive, not the leader. If the woman isn’t there, I expect myself to call out the speaker, not as a defense of the woman, but essentially attacking the speaker for stupidity. It seems to me this might have a good long-term effect.
I am extremely bothered by Senator Obama’s secular appeal. A majority of his campaign appearances take place in churches. The pulpit isn’t the only place to campaign but that is where his appeal and his style of speaking is most effective. But wouldn’t that be considered some sort of code? As a gay man, this bothers me when he has gospel singer Donnie McClurkin talking about his “ex-gay” experience. The “black churches” have not exactly been on board in our struggle against AIDS because of their bias against gays when it has been to thier own detriment.
Ok. Thanks for clarifying.